Misplaced Pages

3. You made no attempt to resolve the dispute. You protected the page in its POV form after DELIBERATELY removing the Dispute tag.

For this, and saying that he failed (IMO) I was blocked indefinitely; it is admitted above. I don't care if the block was lowered, I feel the application of an indefinite block for that almost entirely cogent email is highly irresponsible especially because it made it very difficult to argue my case. It's like all of a sudden going to DEFCON 1, then going back to DEFCON 4 and acting as if "no blood no foul, right?".

Although a warning or 24 hour ban would have been preferable, the situation escalated because, in my opinion, Sandover was for the most part refusing to acknowledge the points I was making on the Talk page. I was also frustrated by the fact that my very small additions/omissions were being completely reverted while I allowed his entire section to remain essentially intact. On top of that, the POV tag that I inserted (for both the anti-gay blurb and Sandover's edits) was being removed again and again without dialog. This was especially annoying because the tag was also intended for content that Sandover had nothing to do with. Even though I initially added the POV tag and explained it, I was in part banned for a 3RR, again, even though no one bothered to explain why it shouldn't be there. At that point, I was pretty comfortable calling the whole incident "fascistic" simply because the editors/Admins were moving along without me while silencing me by force. Haizum 02:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether you feel comfortable about doing it or not is not the point. It's a personal attack. Don't do it again. Sasquatch t|c 23:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Woah there, I never said I shouldn't have been blocked, in fact, I said I should have and that it was wrong. The issue presented here is the use of an indefinite block. I'm merely providing context so you can better do your job. Haizum 05:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Threat of Arbitration: Simply not represented fairly. Based on several complaints and my own personal experience with this Administrator (that I felt was contra the role of the Admin), I said "You're on your way to arbitration." Inflamatory? Perhaps, but this comment was made in private via Wiki email. It is not, "I'm going to get you arbitrated," and it is not worthy of an indefinite ban. Haizum 03:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is Alkivar allowed to be an admin?

Alkivar uses profanity in his edit summaries and practices incivility. Here are just a few examples. Check his user contributions, and you'll find regular use of "shit" and "fuck". Check out his talk page in which he routinely removes comments that are not vandalism (also notice the number of complaints he receives on his talk page). Only administrators can do this, but notice his inappropriate use of deleting histories. Check out the brassiere page where he tried to add some awful picture to it that everyone hated, and then he insulted everyone (except one user) who complained about the picture. He also seems to be in the habit of provoking vandals by making his feuds with them personal. Why hasn't Alkivar ever been blocked for this kind of behavior or been removed from his position as an administrator? This is a travesty. Duckdid 05:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't any opinion with respect to most of the points you raise, as I've only a passing familiarity with Alkivar and am disinclined to spend time reading through his talk page. Apropos of his profane edit summaries, though, one finds that his profanity isn't directed in specific at other users (as would perhaps be in contravention of WP:NPA and would, in any event, be disruptive), save for those linkspammers whom we block straightaway. To suggest that his edit summaries are in bad form, then, one would have to argue that profanity is disruptive per se, irrespective of context, and I suspect that many users, like I, aren't willing to make such an argument. As to the history deletion, the last two months of his admin activity seem to have comprised no deletions of specific versions of a page/image (i.e., "history deletions") save for those in which an image was compromised (viz., either by an unencyclopedic image's being uploaded in its place or by a non-fair use picture's being uploaded). Now, I've seen several complaints here and elsewhere about Alkivar, and I think perhaps his style sometimes could be more decorous; I don't think, though, that any Wikipedian can say that he/she has never phrased something in a fashion he/she later regretted. Alkivar doesn't appear to be disrupting the community and appears to use the admin tools properly and constructively (if sometimes with terse explanation), so I can see no reason for which Alkivar ought to be desysopped. Of course, per WP:RfDA, one may always construct an RfC, which will surely bear out any actual malfeasance (even as I suspect none has occurred). Joe 06:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example of some comments I found in his edit summaries and other places by searching just for a minute or so: "jesus fuck learn grammar you tards", "why do idiots insist on adding images without reading the HELP documentation first?", "All i've gotten is shit over this picture ... fuck you all its deleted", "Fuck You." Yes, Alkivar breaks incivility and he uses profanity to further that goal. Please, don't try to ignore this obvious fact. Doing a search on Misplaced Pages, I also found a reference to Alkivar deliberately trying to lure a guy he was feuding with into a 3RR block. Duckdid 06:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I know the feeling when people add in the worst-written shit you have ever read. Makes me want to say that first think, too. However, the rest is just unexcusable. Either this is a different user than the person elected to admin, or it has gone to his head in a bad way. --mboverload@ 07:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look like you've talked to him about this, which should be the first step rather than taking it here. Talk to him first, try to work it out, and if that doesn't work bring it here. I'm tired of people complaining on this NB without first trying to actually resolve the issue (wow! what a concept!). Snoutwood (talk) 07:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Talking to him is a great idea, but it's not a terrible idea for a fellow admin to do the talking. As it stands, he appears to be an ongoing embarassment to less potty-mouthed admins.

When you loose a cannon, you have the responsibility to reign it back in. Every person who voted in support on Alkivar's RFA should be jumping down his throat right now. Al 07:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no, no. He made what may or may not be a mistake, and going "Ohnoes, sysop abuse!" is absurd (as per "why hasn't Alkivar ever been blocked for this kind of behavior or been removed from his position as an administrator?"). Talking to him is exactly what should be done here, as always. Snoutwood (talk) 07:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying we have TWO standards? Because when I once made a single edit comment that could be taken as an insult, I was blocked for a week. This guy is cursing out people repeatedly, but since he's an admin, all you suggest is that someone speak to him politely about it? With all due respect, there is clearly at least the appearance of disparity here. Al 07:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point, Alienus. Admins should be blocked, or not, for violations according to the very same standards (at least) which would be applied to any other editor.Timothy Usher 07:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course. But I'm not playing a double standard, see below for details. Snoutwood (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know your situation, but I reckon that you should've been talked to first as well. If you'd already been talked with or warned or whatever, then I'd understand it. No one's brought up the subject with Alkivar. In fact, no one who brought this topic up appears to even have had the decency to let him know that he's being talked about on this noticeboard. Talk to him, take it to RfC. That's the dispute resolution process. The whole way this wiki works is through communucation. A lot of people seem to be under the misapprehension that when they don't like something, the best thing to do is shout over here, Abuse! Abuse! and then not bother to tell the "abusing" person anything about it or do any leg work themselves. If you'd mentioned the issue and then he'd said Fuck off, this post would be far more reasonable. But then that hasn't happened. Snoutwood (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. If a user is uncivil, why are we shooting the messenger rather than dealing with the problem. Fine, if Duckdid is a banned user, ban him again. But don't just assume that because a banned user brings something up, the complaint is ipso facto invalid. Alkivar's edit summaries DO contain problems, regardless of whether someone haas talked to him about it yet (and maybe no one has talked to him about it because of the perception that it will do no good, vis double-standards?). -- nae'blis _(talk) 17:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not shooting the messenger, nor do I think that the complaint is invalid. I'm saying that the messenger is taking the wrong steps. If I have a problem with a user, I talk to him about it. That I've assumed that he'll respond poorly is no reason to not talk to him about it (I may be wrong, he may say, "Oh, feck, right, sorry about that," and the problem's solved. I've seen it happen). If he responds poorly, then that's a good reason to bring it here. It's just plain rude to post a message here before first even going over the problem with the person you have a problem with. Talking to them first is indeed the first step in our dispute resolution process, a long-standing policy. Try it, and you may get good results. If that's done, then come here with the problem and we'll do our best. Snoutwood (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You guys have to realize the near impossibility of not being an “insider” and trying to get things done. I’ve been told that I shouldn’t have posted this concern here, even though the directions at the top of the page say this is where to do it. I’ve been told to talk to Alkivar, which is impossible since he has removed my comments from his talk page in the past. I’ve been told that I should appeal to a committee instead of creating a sockpuppet if I’m blocked, but how do I do such things if I’m blocked to begin with? And what about Snoutwood, who appears (though this could be wrong) to be interpreting everything in the light most favorable to Alkivar? Snoutwood claimed no one had the decency to tell Alkivar that he’s being talked about, and that’s a non-issue. Alkivar tried to have me blocked about thirty minutes after I posted here. He knew about it. He just didn’t want to say anything here.

No one has looked at this from my perspective. Administrators go around making binding decisions with blocks and deletions and so forth. I just make a few edits and create a few articles here and there. When people talk about needing to do a WP:RfA because the WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL were violated when there was a WP:3RR or whatever, I don’t know what any of that means. I have to sit here for an hour clicking on the links to figure out what those acronyms mean and what the substance of those policies are. So, I’m stuck hindered by an overly bureaucratic process that I don’t understand (and several in this conversation have interpreted differently) while groupthink and the good ol’ boys network run amok. Dizzied 05:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, where's your proof that Alkivar tried to have you blocked?

As I've said, I don't have a stand in regards to Alkivar, and if it's in the interest of the encyclopedia for him to be desysopped or whatever else than I would wholeheartedly support it. I think that there's very much an isue that needs to be addressed here, and I think that you're going about this the wrong way. However, that doesn't have anything to do with what I've been saying. What I've been saying is that he needed to be talked to first. As that still hasn't happened, I left a message on his talk page asking him to talk about this here. I won't have anything else to do with this: all I was trying to do is bring in some dispute common sense, and since it's being ignored I won't reiterate it any more. Snoutwood (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I can see now that my efforts to reign in Alkivar's terrible behavior have been futile. This thread has stagnated. I have been attacked rather than the substantitive issue of Alkivar's bad behavior being dealt with. Even though people here claimed they would help with this, Alkivar has already removed the comments from his talk page regarding his unacceptable attitutde.

I have no interest in circumventing Misplaced Pages policy, and despite the unjust nature of my original block, I request that an administrator block the account I am currently using, as it is merely a sockpuppet of a pre-existing indefinitely blocked user. Dizzied 04:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Quick comment: Duckdid appears to be a reincarnation of User:Beisnj, please see the respective logs or email me for details. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to talk to him before under just my IP address before I had an account, and he just removed my comment. His explanation was that he doesn't respond to anonymous users. Later, someone made a similar complaint under a real account, so I thought that would settle it, but he just deleted that one also. I also realize this next comment will likely result in getting me blocked indefinitely, but the Beisnj account was my account. An admin blocked that account indefinitely, however, please note that none of my edits were vandalism, I never harassed anybody, etc. Under this account, I have continued to make appropriate edits as well. I could have easily hidden that the Beisnj account was mine simply by not adding to my user page the list of articles I've created. I just want to edit on Misplaced Pages from time to time and be left alone while I do it. The only people I've ever complained about was one guy who tried to overtake an article about French military history, and Alkivar because of his string of abuses. Two mure notes: (1)As an added note, I see that his RfA was approved by a 28-21 vote. Now, I don't know much about the inner-workings of Misplaced Pages, nor have I ever attempted to be an "insider", but that doesn't seem like a very solid vote. Most of the "oppose" votes voiced the same concerns I have voiced here. (2) This entire conversation is hypocritical. I'm being asked to go talk to Alkivar about it, but he hasn't attempted to talk to me about this. His immediate response was to petition to Jayjg to have me permentantly blocked. Notice in Alkivar's complaint that he doesn't have an argument of substance against me, he just saw a previous block and is hoping for the easy way out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he uses my "self-incrimination" above to permanantly block me himself. Duckdid 08:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Duckdid indefinitely as a self-confessed sockpuppet of a banned user. Sockpuppetry to evade bans is not acceptable, no matter how well the sock contributes. Inicidentally, the RfA Duckdid refers to failed. Alkivar's third RfA was the one that got him promoted, by 69/20/8. The allegations of incivility are disturbing, but an RfC sounds like the proper venue for this, with evidence that people have tried and failed to resolve this with Alkivar, and allowing Alkivar a response. --Sam Blanning 08:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, RfC is the place for these kinds of complaints. ANI has become almost a replacement for RfC. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Then the header for this page needs to be reworded. Currently it says:

If you want to make an open informal complaint over the behaviour of an admin, you can do so here, but please only do either that, or file a RFC or RFAr, but not both.

-- nae'blis _(talk) 17:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

He also called me a troll and blocked my user page for having a creative user name. (User:Can sleep, clown will not eat me) I saw someone named User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me in the Special:Recentchanges, and thought it was good user name, so I created a similar one. It is not impersonation.--4.19.93.2 17:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Alkivar didn't block that username, Jni and FireFox did. Snoutwood (talk) 17:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Although i have no personal insight into, or interest in, either editor's behaviour, i have to say that reading this section hardly instils confidence in our administration system. I reads very much like Admins covering each other's back, selectively quoting policy to justify awfully poor behaviour, and a warning to any non admin who dares to point out that some one may be abusing their tools. Per WP:AGF, i'll accept that is not the motivation of the admins here, but its hard to deny that is what it looks like. Irrespective of where or whether a complaint has been made, in light of the evidence quoted above would it not make sense of one of you to say youl will have a quiet word in Alkivar's ear and point out that such language and behaviour is unbecoming on an admin? Instead we say to the person making the complaint: "talk to him/her about it" then immediately we block them. Result? The problem goes away. Until next time. Rockpocket 18:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're worried that Alkivar will block you for criticising him, which I think is highly unlikely, I will personally supervise the exchange and make sure that it doesn't happen. O.K.? I'm not "covering" Alkivar, I've no particular attachment to him or admins as some sort of cabal. If an admin came here without discussion with the person they're having trouble with, I'd say the same thing. Discusison with the user is first and foremost, that's all. People seem to be forgetting that these days. Snoutwood (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

My point was more that of nae'blis'. Irrespective of the situation, an editor had pointed out out what appears to be a very valid concern. That user not cannot resolve the situation him or herself (as soon as they self identify they will be blocked again, moreover he tried to talk anonymously and was ignored or the comment removed). So the situation goes unresolved and Alkivar will continue to edit in a frankly, occasionally offensive manner. Although it has nothing to do with me whatsoever, i'll happily ask Alkivar if he would mind toning down his language and improve his behaviour, seeing as User:Duckdid no longer can and no administrator appears willing to. I'm not concerned about being blocked for that. But its unfortunate that one of the admins here doesn't see that as the commonsense way forward, instead of telling him to resolve it by talking then banning him. Rockpocket 20:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* Since no one else will, I guess I have to. Hopefully this shows that I'm not necessarily supporting these actions, a point which no one seems interested in trusting me on.

I just went over the history of Alkivar's talk page, back to January. No anonymous edits talking about this stuff. I didn't see any other edits talking about this stuff either. Course, I could've missed it. Can anyone provide the diff?

Until I see that I just don't believe that Alkivar would block him for raising a valid concern. If he would, that's a Bad Thing and certainly needs to be dealt with. Rocket, since you've got a problem with this issue, why don't you just go and deal with it rather than saying that it's an admin problem, or that we're covering each other's backs? I don't understand why you don't just go and talk to him (still not done by anyone who is involved in the dispute). I don't understand why you don't see talking to him as being the commonsense way forwards.

As for User:Duckdid, he was blocked, NOT by Alkivar or in a way having anything to do with Alkivar that I can see, for being a sock of User:Beisnj, whose story I don't know. However, if he'd like to appeal that block, he can always go to User:Jayjg, the blocking admin, and talk to him. That hasn't happened either, unless it happened via e-mail where I wouldn't know about it. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this, and I don't understand why people think this is "admin abuse" or that I'm "defending Alkivar," when all I've said is to TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE PROBLEM AND TRY TO RESOLVE IT. Snoutwood (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(1) Yes, Alkivar knew about this comment on the ANI, and his response was to attempt to get me blocked. I posted here at 05:56, 5 June 2006. At 06:28, 5 June 2006, Alkivar requested from Jayjg that he run checkuser on me and block me. Alkivar hadn’t even posted on Misplaced Pages in three days, but he responded to that comment in roughly 30 minutes by trying to get me blocked. (Note also that Jayjg did, in fact, run Checkuser on me. As far as I can tell under these circumstances, that was not an acceptable use of Checkuser privileges.)

(2) There is plenty of evidence that these problems have been brought to Alkivar’s attention. At this point, you’re making it hard for me to not think that you’re not blatantly ignoring the evidence. At all three of his RfA the problems of his incivility and poor edit summaries were talked about extensively.

(3) A good example of Alkivar ignoring and deleting posts about his behavior can be found on February 8th. He went on a roll deleting comments critical of him with such edit summaries as “poof” and “wipe away useless post.” On December 6th, 2005, he deleted a comment from his talk page asking him to be civil, and Alkivar’s edit summary was “rv vandalism.”

(4) I was given the same kind of run-around as I’m being given now when I tried to get out of my block. I e-mailed Jayjg, and he basically said he wasn’t going to do it. I listed the unblock template on my talk page, and people basically told me that wasn’t the right way to handle it (which seems to be a common response to attempts to follow the bureaucratic process). Dizzied 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

1. I see. Yes, you're right about that, and that he didn't respond to the issues listed is a problem. Note that I don't see you being blocked as necessarily being a problem, as the way things work around here is, if you're blocked, you don't create sockpuppets to get around the block, like you've done. You e-mail the blocking admin with your main account and talk to them about the issue (which it sounds like you did, but I don't know the story). In case you didn't see, I've already asked Alkivar to contribute to the discussion, and we'll see what comes of that.

2. I don't know almost anything about Alkivar. There are over 900 admins on this project, and there's no way I'm going to remember the issues brought up in each one's RfA, especially in ones where I didn't participate. Indeed, however, apart from this your point is well made.

3. Yes, those edits are definitely problems. However, they took place some time ago... I mean, they don't have any impact on current events, except to note that this has been going on for a while. More recent examples would be more germane to this thread.

4. I'm not trying to run you around, I'm trying to have you solve your own problems before coming to the admins' board. The block template just don't work well, unfortunately, e-mail is best (people don't notice the template). Now that you have shown that Alkivar didn't bother to deal with the issue although he was aware of it, then your position makes more sense. It appears to me that his civility is certainly an issue that he needs to address, and much as I don't want to get more involved in this I've posted a message to his talk page. It's important that he respond to criticism. Note that while I say this I don't expect anything to happen while you refuse to directly talk to him about your trouble with his behavior. Snoutwood (talk) 06:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Snoutwood, when an admin deletes good-faith complaints and requests, I don't see what options are left other than ANI and RFC. Whatever the details, it's still clear that this admin made many uncivil edit comments and has not been warned, much less blocked, for it. It's also clear that the person who made this complaint has been banned. The end result is that justice is not served and it looks a whole lot like admins sticking up for each other. However untrue this may be, this is genuinely how it appears, and this appearance itself causes harm.

I suggest that we put aside all this endless debate and solve the problem: an admin who violates the very rules he is charged to enforce and gets alway with it. Ask him to stop. Block him if he doesn't. That would be productive. Telling people to go talk to him is clearly not. Al 07:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Snoutwood has kindly requested Alkivar respond to these allegations. I think he deserves the opportunity to have his say. However, should he decline the offer to explain his contested edits or fail to justify them (admittedly, i can't imagine any valid justification for leaving an edit summary "jesus fuck learn grammar you tards" when an editor had used "An" instead of "The" ) then i would also suggest that a process be initiated in the same way as it would if a non admin showed this pattern of behaviour. I concur with Al in how it "looks". That is unfortunate, as i don't believe there is any conspiracy here, but as he suggests, appearance itself can cause harm. Neverthless, i don't believe this is necessarily Snoutwood's problem and, at this stage, either of us could as easily engage Alkivar in a discussion about this since we are concerned. Rockpocket 07:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I've just talked to Alkivar on IRC, which I know isn't a substitute for onwiki comment, but it just sort of fell together and I seized the opportunity. Since no-one's bothered to show the "good faith" efforts to deal with the situation, I'll show the two edits shown to me by Alkivar as being the most likely to have been the "criticism" from Beisnj, seeing as they edited the same pages as Beisnj and he said that he posted anonymously: and . Jusge for yourself; those strike me as defiantly trolling posts and as such I refute Duckdid/Beisnj's opinion of himself as being the bearer of good-faith criticism, pending further information. As for the incivility and cursing, he said that he'd already begun to tone down on that and would continue to do so (there have been a few recent bits of cursing in summaries, but as the edits weren't inicivil or in any way attacking I don't really see a problem). Seeing the situation in that light, I'm inclined to agree with the block of Duckdid and Alkivar's opinion that he shouldn't respond to a post from a troll, which is what this appears to be. As for the incivility, if it continues, which hopefully it won't, we can deal with it then; I don't believe any further action is necessary. Course, if you're inclined you can still talk to him about it, but I think it superfluous. Snoutwood (talk) 08:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you will note on the Duckdid user page that there is a list of pages I have created, and some of them were created from IP addresses. Those addresses were 209.30.22.214, 209.30.41.59, and 64.233.47.250. Dizzied 16:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Until you provide diffs of your "polite, civil, anonymous, criticism," I can't say that I really care what other IPs you've used. Snoutwood (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Snoutwood, you'll see above that Alkivar took three RfAs to gain the mop; part of that was likely his promise in that 3rd RfA to be civil and polite in his intereactions with others. So all arguments that he is "unaware of the problem" should be null and void; like any other user, he had been warned, repeatedly! Then above it's stated that his incivility lies in the past, citing diffs from as long ago as December 2005. This ignores the why do idiots comment from June 1, SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS on May 22nd, and the gratuitous usage of fuck or fucking in edit summaries from June 1 and May 30 respectively. Is that what he's calling "toning it down"? -- nae'blis _(talk) 17:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Since I believe you to be an honest, good-faith user, I'm going to say this one more time and then be gone from this thread (barring further information, of course): I have no interest in solving your problems for you, with no help. If you have a problem with Alkivar, talk to him. If you're worried about being blocked, I personally swear that if Alkivar blocks you for politely criticising him I will unblock (course, this isn't actually going to happen, since Alkivar isn't stupid). And, since I'm an idiot and can't help myself, a parting note: I see little wrong with any of your diffs, they're hardly admin abuse (not even admin related). None of them really attack anybody, and although they could certainly be better I think that he'll respond if you just try and talk to him about it. Snoutwood (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as i'm concerned, Snoutwood has taken this as far as he should, and i'd like to go on record in thanking him for that. Its clear that Dizzied was less than frank about his "good-faith criticism". Similarly Alkivar has been less than civil in the past, and while he recent summaries as still not what i would expect of an admin, they are not quite as blatantly offensive as some older examples. He has said he is working on it and now Snoutwood has expressed further concern, Alkivar will realise that this problem is not going to go away unless he pulls up his socks. Should he continue to be uncivil then this exchange can be used as evidence of his lack of progress in that area. Thats my opinion anyway. Rockpocket 05:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Its clear that Dizzied was less than frank about his 'good-faith criticism'." So, apparently, criticism of Alkivar requires several days, multiple posts, and a series of evidence. But "clear" proof against me requires nothing. Hey, wasn't Alkivar supposed to come by and say something? Dizzied 09:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So you are saying these were not your communiques with him: and ? You lack of denial at the time suggested to me that were. If not, perhaps you could provide the diffs that illustrate the "good faith criticisms" from you that he deleted then. Note, however, that i immediately criticised Alkivar's behaviour on the evidence provided also. You suggestion of double standards has no basis. Rockpocket 06:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Two points. First, while it is possible I may have used the term “good faith criticisms”, I fail to recall this ever happening. Secondly, I was deliberately cryptic about the two criticisms in question because I was protecting a privacy concern. I don’t want to say anything more than that I agree largely with the wording and intent of those two posts and that the IP address was apparently not blocked or warned for those comments.

I just don’t understand why people are taking a “wait and see” approach to Alkivar’s openly unacceptable behavior – the kind of behavior that would get others blocked – and meanwhile there is this ongoing attempt to strain a gnat to find the most subtle of evidence with which to persecute me.

Consider this: if I had never posted the list of pages I had created on the Duckdid page, no one would have ever known that I had the Beisnj account. Without any of these attacks on me, this whole thread would (hopefully) be nothing but a condemnation of Alkivar’s behavior.

So, what does that tell us? It shows that no arguments of substance have yet to be made in support of Alkivar. Every argument in his defense has really been an ad hominem against me. And then consider that even if every single accusation was true (except the CapnCrack vandalism), if I did make the two edits in question, if I never attempted to talk to Alkivar personally, and whatever else has been stewed up, none of that compares to the poor behavior of Alkivar (note that I haven’t even brought up Alkivar’s possible sockpuppetry). Yet I’ve been permanently blocked, and he is an administrator with not even a warning. Dizzied 08:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't've put it better myself. Very well put. Snoutwood (talk) 06:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Beisnj, contrary to your claims, I did not run a CheckUser on your User:Duckdid account, and I did explain quite clearly why your User:Beisnj account was blocked. The "CapnCrack" vandalism coming from your computer for months now has been quite disturbing, and your claims that although you found it amusing, it wasn't you, just relatives and friends of yours, were hardly re-assuring. I conferred with the rest of the CheckUser group regarding your block, and they concurred that it was justified. Jayjg 22:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, I got blocked, but the CapnCrack vandalism has continued. Never let reality stand in the way of bias. Amazingly, as well, the precious CheckUser was unable to show that the Beisnj and Duckdid accounts originate from the same computer and same IP address. No doubt, I am probably an imposter of Beisnj and not the real Beisnj. But rest assured, I am, in fact, a real vandal, CapnCrack, a sockpuppet, JFK's assassin, and the person who shot JR. Dizzied 05:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This blatant and obvious smear campaign continues.

For example, you claim, “Beisnj, contrary to your claims, I did not run a CheckUser on your User:Duckdid account…” First note that I never specifically stated that you ran a CheckUser on the Duckdid account; I simply said you ran it on me. And my comment about user CheckUser use is a reasonable interpretation of your statement to Alkivar, “CheckUser is inconclusive at this point, so you'd have to block based on other grounds (e.g. being an obvious sockpuppet).” To act like I just made that up out of thin air is just bad faith on your part.

“…your claims that although you found it amusing…” An obvious distortion of the facts. I might as well say that every administrator who banters with a blocked user in the blocking edit summary must find vandalism to be amusing and is encouraging continued vandalism with the humorous edit summaries.

But, please, don’t stay on subject. Don’t talk about Alkivar’s profane outbursts, deleting of comments, incivility, bad edit summaries, attempt to add a bizarre picture to the brassiere page, or documented history of bad behavior in his three RfA.

It’s a lot easier to plop down on the drumhead and stir up the lynch mob.

PS: Speaking of Alkivar’s bad edit summaries, notice in the block log that the reason given for CapnCrack’s infinite block is “bad edit summaries.” Interesting how irony works, isn’t it? Dizzied 05:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Five week block for spelling change?

I've just come across what looks like a case of severe injustice. User:Pnatt has been blocked for five weeks for changing the spelling of television program from programme in Australian articles. "Program" is the correct modern Australian spelling, and "programme" is regarded as archaic. The blocking admin is not Australian and has promised to keep adding one week to Pnatt's block every time he returns and corrects the spelling. Understandably Pnatt is upset over this. Could someone please calm down what should be a simple discussion about consensus? --Jumbo 21:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There's some context missing from that post, mainly this. 5 weeks seems a fairly minor escalation from the last block, which was one month and ran its full course, at which point the user again began doing exactly what got him blocked last time - uncivil edit warring over local dialect spellings. This seems to be practically all the user does, and I have no objection to this block. --Sam Blanning 22:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't you be upset as well? Looking at Pnatt's contributions, any incivility seems to be on a minor level. I've asked him to try to keep calm. The response of the blocking admin seems disproportionate and likely to further inflame the user. Pnatt's preferred spelling has been endorsed by other Australian users, and this really should not be this big an issue. --Jumbo 22:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It actually was not five weeks for a spelling change. User:Pnatt has only been on Misplaced Pages since April. In that time he had received continuous last warnings and 5 previous blocks, climbing from 24 hours right up to 1 month for continuous edit wars, misleading edit summaries, personal attacks, etc etc etc. Every time a block was imposed he was warned when he came back to stop behaving as in the past or he would be blocked again. Every time he would only be back on WP when he would take up where he left off and start the same behaviour all over again. On his second (yes, second) edit after the expiry of his last one month block he began the exact same edit warring on the exact same issues, abusing the exact same users, and carried on as if nothing happened. He had already been warned many times that such was his behaviour that the length of blocks would climb every time he was blocked until he stopped the edit warring and attacks. Given that it was a repeat performance of his previous behaviour, and the last block was for one month, this time, as warned, the block was upped again, this time to 5 weeks. BTW this user, when blocked, has also a habit of posting constant {{help me}} messages on his talk page, to the annoyance of many users who keep telling him to stop doing it. For his last block, his posting of false templates and attacks necessitated that his talk page also be protected for the duration of the block. Already since this block another user have had to threaten to protect the page again to stop him posting the disruptive templates. At this stage this user has been blocked for more often than he has been allowed to edit Misplaced Pages. He had contributed little but edit wars and attacks. It is getting to the stage where quite possibly he should be blocked indefinitely. In less than two months he has contributed nothing but aggro and edit wars. FearÉIREANN\ 22:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds about right. Thanks for chiming in. --Cyde↔Weys 23:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

On investigation of Pnatt's edits, I must respectfully differ. His second edit on returning was this one, where he changed the archaic "programmes" to "programs". He was absolutely correct in this, and he has cited several widely used sources, such as current Australian dictionaries and the Australian Government Style Manual. He has not been abusive, nor has he made misleading edit summaries. He referred to correction of vandalism, which from his perspective (and mine) it certainly is. Articles on Australian subjects should use current Australian spelling, and when such a conservative network as the Australian Broadcasting Commission uses "program", we may safely say that this spelling is current. He does not deserve a five week block for making beneficial edits. New editors should be guided rather than chastised, and whatever his past sins may have been, he does not seem to have resumed them. --Jumbo 23:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Referring to others' good faith edits as vandalism is provocative and incorrect. I'm not surprised it upsets people. "Vandalism" is when someone is trying to make the encyclopedia worse, not better. There's no compelling reason to think that someone using the spelling "programme" is trying to compromise the quality or integrity of Misplaced Pages - they probably think that's an acceptable spelling. I suggest that this user (and everyone) refrain from characterizing the other side of a style dispute as "vandals". -GTBacchus 19:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a few comments:

• Six different admins have blocked this user. This isn't just one admin getting over-zealous.
• Some of his edits have been very blatant vandalism (e.g. , )
• The user is occasionally very incivil in his edit summaries (e.g. )
• This user spends a lot of time in revert wars, often with really strong POV statements such as this one
• This user has almost no productive edits
• The user does not seem to listen to warnings. See the user's talk page

Although I personally saw this latest edit war and was not planning on blocking him myself, I do support the block. -- JamesTeterenko 23:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Some of those early edits are disturbing. However, I note that since returning he has made no similar edits. Maybe he HAS listened to advice this time? He has hardly been given a chance and if we can make a productive editor out of him than turning him into an embittered critic of Misplaced Pages, then so much the better. --Jumbo 00:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In the very brief period before he was reblocked, his edit summaries included the misleading "revert vandalism" twice and he tells an editor " "Program" is the preferable spelling, like it or not" . That does not suggest to me that this editor is close to being 'reformed'. Note that "being right" is never an excuse for continuous edit warring (since everyone's right in at least one person's opinion). We have a dispute resolution process for people who think they're right when the other editors don't, and "edit warring" does not feature in any stage. --Sam Blanning 09:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

He is not alone in stating that he is right. Other Australian editors prefer "program" over "programme". The naming of articles and categories such as List of programs broadcast by Seven Network indicate that this has been the preferred spelling for some time. Government and university style guides state "program not programme". The Macquarie Dictionary - the acknowledged standard for Australian English - has a headword for "program" and not for "programme". (See here for a page scan.) I had not given this matter much thought until this morning, but all my research indicates that he is entirely correct, and quite entitled to think of reversion to an archaic form as "vandalism". I note that it is common practice amongst established editors to label such small details as vandalism: here is one from the blocking editor, who could be described as Misplaced Pages's revert warrior par excellence, judging by his extraordinary edit history.

However, some of Pnatt's early edits and attitude (as pointed out earlier, for which many thanks, JamesTeterenko) trouble me deeply, and if he had returned to this style of editing, then I would not feel inclined to defend him at all. But there seems to be a gradual improvement in his attitude, and I feel that imposing a five week block and threatening longer for such a small impoliteness in a new editor is going too far. Such long blocks are more properly the preserve of the ArbCom, imposed for more serious and protracted matters. I feel that this matter should have been handled so as reduce confrontation and encourage co-operation. --Jumbo 09:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have protected User talk:Pnatt after he added the {{unblock}} template after I had already removed it. This is the fifth time the page has been protected to stop him abusing the template. I will not be lifting the protection until his block expires, as every time protection is lifted he goes right back to getting in the way of users who have a legitimate reason to be unblocked (see the log). --Sam Blanning 18:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought this comment from him was extremely encouraging: "After the recent 4-week block I made a choice that if I wanted to stay on Misplaced Pages, that I would have to make reliable and factually correct edits." Now one more avenue of communication has been blocked off, and heaven knows what his opinion of Misplaced Pages management is now. Perhaps he's altering the template text because he feels that he's been, oh I dunno, harshly and unfairly treated? --Jumbo 19:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't altering template text, he was adding a template that he knew damn well he wasn't allowed to add again. That's not in the least bit encouraging, he seems absolutely incapable of learning from mistakes. If he feels he's been harshly and unfairly treated then he can wait for consensus to build up here that the block is unwarranted. --Sam Blanning 20:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

With respect, this behaviour came after he received a block of five weeks! I suggest that with sufficient provocation even the most angelic editor is going to get hot under the collar. On being unblocked - after a four week block - his Wikistress was at three. It quickly jumped to five: "Run for cover!". In such circumstances it seems reasonable to suggest that he's not going to be the perfect editor, and he should be calmed down instead of being provoked further. --Jumbo 11:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I repeat - his page has been protected five times now for abuse of the {{unblock}} template. The first time can be put down to ignorance, the second to frustation (or 'provocation'), but the third is downright refusal to listen, and the fourth and fifth are just taking the piss. It looks like no-one is willing to lift or shorten the five-week block, so I simply don't buy that throughout his block he should be allowed to continue adding {{unblock}} templates and get in the way of legitimate requests because he was 'provoked'. The block is, after all, already under review - the {{unblock}} template is for getting a second opinion and there are plenty of those here. --Sam Blanning 13:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree on your reading of his motivation: "just taking the piss". It seems to me that this new editor feels he has been unfairly blocked and nobody gives a damn, except to kick him in the face longer and harder. I ask again, wouldn't YOU be stressed and upset under such circumstances? If your Wikistress level was set to "ready to pop', then how much would you care about niceties of policy? This editor started off on the wrong foot with some attitude problems, but all I see is steady improvement despite severe provocation. I'd like to see understanding and co-operation next time around. If he feels interested enough to return. In the meantime I can only imagine what he is saying about Misplaced Pages. --Jumbo 21:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

He can have all the understanding he likes when he stops doing the same things that get him blocked and his talk page protected, over, and over, and over again. I don't know what he's saying about Misplaced Pages, but the truth would be along the lines of "Misplaced Pages has better things to do than act as the battleground for people who obsess over dialect spellings". --Sam Blanning 23:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

With respect, you shouldn't lump the two misbehaviours together. It takes two to make a battle, and his changing of "programme" to "program" was quite correct, in Good Faith and he provided sources. See the discussion here. This should have been discussed at the time by the other parties, but apparently they chose to revert without discussion. His edit summary when he was reverted was perhaps a little incivil, but certainly not worth a five week block, which is what he got, with the promise of a much longer one. On that note, the blocking admin appears to be a big booster of monarchies and nobility around the world and User:Pnatt is apparently not. There may be some issues there. However, as has been pointed out, there are far worse examples of incivility in edit summaries which go unpunished.

After he was given a five week block for doing what he regarded as improving the encyclopaedia, then he sought outside assistance. I imagine that, as his Wikistress level indicates, he was quite upset. It is quite unfair to justify this very long block by what he did after getting it.

I am also quite concerned that the increasing improvement in his behaviour has been met with increasing harshness of treatment. He has also stated that he wants to be a good editor and this has been ignored. Surely he should be assisted in his stated aim rather than beaten and abused until he gives up in disgust? --Jumbo 00:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm just asking for information, but how is the edit summary " "Program" is the preferable spelling, like it or not" a problem, while "jesus fuck learn grammar you tards" reflects that the editor "sometimes could be more decorous" (Joe), and has "a few recent bits of cursing in summaries, but as the edits weren't inicivil or in any way attacking I don't really see a problem" (Snoutwood) in #Why is Alkivar allowed to be an admin? above? JackyR | Talk 14:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If Alikvar had been blocked six times for a total of about 40 days for that behaviour, that would be more of a valid comparison. --Sam Blanning 16:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, this is a specific question. I'm not asking are Alkivar and Pnatt overall "good" or "bad". I'm asking, when assessing evidence, how is the first edit summary evidence an act <JackyR | Talk 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)> of wrongdoing, and the second not? JackyR | Talk 21:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC ) <rephrased to make less ambiguous JackyR | Talk 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)>

The first is part of a continuous pattern of disruption that has led six different admins to block the user and four to protect his talk page afterwards. The second is not. --Sam Blanning 22:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Still missing the point. You make a specific complaint about this edit summary, over and above the edit to which it refers. And you appear to be agreeing that a pattern of uncivil edit summaries by Alkivar is not a problem (did you mean to?).

Look, what I'm highlighting is how easy it is to make an overall judgement of a person, and then interpret all their actions accordingly (person X is bad, so action Z by them is bad: person Y is OK, so action Z by them is OK). This is the very heart of many accusations of admin abuse, and so unnecessary. Folk on this page routinely have to make evidence-based judgements – it's an important and often thankless job, and I'm grateful someone does it – but often end up putting the cart before the horse. Please, stop and think about this for a minute. I'm not getting at you: I'm just alarmed by what I see every time I'm stupid enough to come here. I care rather a lot about WP, and this needs to be dealt with – by everyone. JackyR | Talk 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well said! I'm starting to regret that I ever stumbled across this, but I had to speak up. Admins do a wonderful (and largely thankless) job, but I am sure that mistakes are made, and it would have been remiss of me to walk past while another editor was calling out for help. --Jumbo 00:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm shocked by how poorly this editor has been treated, especially when certain admins routinely leave uncivil edit messages yet are not blocked for even a minute. Al 23:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this conversation leading to consensus to fit the block on User:Pnatt soon, and give him a chance to demonstrate good faith editing? For what it's worth, I'm one of the previous blockers and reached for the Macquarie Dictionary before hitting the block button this time, and decided he is right (I would have kept "programme"). I think Pnatt has the potential to be a good contributor, although he shows poor judgement in selecting the changes to make at times, and certainly needs to learn to step back and take a deep breath instead of stepping forward with fists up. --Scott Davis 10:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

WCityMike

I believe we have a problem with WCityMike - he's started a mass AfD against many Star Trek fanfilm related articles, and has apparently gone after several people, myself now included, who have questioned his actions. He's placed a warning about canvassing for votes on my talk page, when I have done no such thing, just reverted an edit he made that was critical of his actions and asked for an administrator's input. I would like an adminstrator to look into this situation, please. TheRealFennShysa 15:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to second that request -- I've noted the same issue this morning, and would like to have a third party (preferably an admin) look into this as well. --Mhking 15:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed remark began, "I have just found out from my Watchlist that there appears to be some sort concerted action against Star Trek Fan Films" and was on fan film talkpage. Removal of remark followed same methodology employed last night uncontroverrsially from BigDT. Note that complainant is a Trek fan film director, BTW, according to his talk page. User who posted original removed remark (Kirok) has made all sorts of sinister implications on his talk page based on my use of the afd_helper code. He's done wikistalking (investigating my monobook.js), personal attacks, bad faith assumptions, and incivility -- which I did not bring here per the way MikeW...'s similar incident was handled here last night, but instead merely asked him politely to cut it out (see talk page). Merely asked user to stop being incivil/stop the personal attacks/etc. Complainant above restored vote-stuffing query from original user, thus restoring the canvassing for votes -- if the canvassing warning isn't policy (despite ArbCom rulings?), then why is it even on the warning page? — WCityMike  ↓ plz reply HERE  (why?) ↓  15:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Small point here - although I have an interest in the genre, I am not a Trek fanfilm director, and have never made a Star Trek fan film. Perhaps you're confusing that with Star Wars - it's such an easy mistake to make. TheRealFennShysa 15:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for the clerical error. However, I've seen a great many Trek fanfilms on TheForce.net, and in my desire to get a response on the record to your charge above, did not read further in your profile. — WCityMike  ↓ plz reply HERE  (why?) ↓  15:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There are no Star Trek fanfilms on TheForce.net. TheRealFennShysa 15:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, those who oppose the deletion of the cited articles are assuming, without any proof, that I brought these nominations in bad faith. (That in and of itself seems to be not only textbook assuming bad faith but also personal attacks.) In actuality, I did not. Were you to see my bookshelves at home, you'd see I'm not precisely a detractor of Star Trek. However, it is simply that the extreme proliferation of fan-film-related articles, including each and every one I cited, has led to a large collection of non-notable articles that I felt merited exposure to a AfD vote. Nomination does not equal deletion. Nomination states, "This user feels that the community should come to a consensus about whether this article deserves to be on Misplaced Pages." I don't think that that opinion is out of line, but evidently by expressing that opinion, I've given license to many hordes of Trek Wikipedians to engage in personal attacks and indignant outrage. It's a shame people (in general, not just in this incident) sem to have lost the ability to respectfully disagree. Those who can still pull it off usually come across as class acts. — WCityMike  ↓ plz reply HERE  (why?) ↓  15:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I could suggest moving this conversation off to a talk page again, but you're clearly looking for an administrator to act as a mediator or referee in this dispute. There's no blatant vandalism, attacks, or activity by blocked or banned users here. Again, you're looking for someone with administrative powers to simply witness and/or referee your content dispute. Administrators have the capability to delete articles, block/ban users, and maybe 1 or 2 other things, but they are not Solomonic judges. Work it out amongst yourselves and you'll be better for it. KWH 15:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, with regards to the "you're clearly looking" (as I'm not sure to whom you addressed this remark — it's an indent underneath my statement), I would note that although I brought the matter to WP:ANI last night, I didn't bring this complaint. Or, to use a legal analogy, yesterday I was the plaintiff, today I'm the defendant. I wouldn't have brought things here this morning, as last night I was told this wasn't the place for such differences of opinion. — WCityMike  ↓ plz reply HERE  (why?) ↓  15:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• This editor has now moved onto Lost-related articles. As he has stated above, he is on a mass AfD campaign ("the extreme proliferation of fan-film-related articles has led to a large collection of non-notable articles that I felt merited exposure to a AfD vote.), which appears to be contrary to WP:POINT. Rather than constructively aiming to develop consensus (or WP-policy improvements), he has chosen to list numerous fiction articles under the pretense of calling them "fancruft". I'm as against cruftiness as the next editor-- in fact, I have a back-burner proposal about the topic-- but disrupting WP/antagonising other editors is not the appropriate way to demonstrate the rightness of that belief. I would suggest that WCityMike should refrain from mass AfD nominations, and if he continues, to face appropriate sanctions. --Leflyman 00:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It doesn't appear he's nominated anything in the last few hours, but I do think a block may be neccisary should he begin again. --InShaneee 03:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I take respectful issue with InShaneee's comments. I have done my best to demonstrate good faith throughout the rather large outpouring of angry editors who have repeatedly taken issue with my nomination of articles that I felt did not meet Misplaced Pages's criterion for inclusion.

For example, I engaged in extremely long dialogues with NickC and Kirok on Kirok's talk page (dialogues which were time-consuming) to address their concerns and in an attempt to make peace with them, despite Kirot (as a new editor) posting rather egregious diatribes about the AFD Helper code and making incivil remarks all over the votes. And, indeed, with each of these individuals, I left the issue having made peace with them, as you can read for yourself.

The largest majority of other editors who have attempted to speak with me personally (including the two individuals bringing complaints in this section) have not demonstrated assumption of good faith or civility. But certainly, administrators should uphold these policies in their official actions as administrators. I have asked every single person who has accused me of bad faith in my nominations of articles to provide proof that I have acted sinisterly or with malicious intent. None have responded with same.

I respectfully posit that it would be a poor choice for an administrator to issue a block — which, from my understanding, is a preventative measure ("blocks are preventative, not punitive," I've heard several admins say) — to attempt to cease measures which are done in good faith.

Prior to reading this remark, and prior to posting this remark, I had nominated a handful of articles to AfD this morning. I emphasize that this was done prior to reading this comment, so it was not a retaliatory action to InShaneee's comments. However, it can now be argued I have "begun again." In these nominations, I did my best to offer more precise, reasoned criteria as to why I believed the article merited deletion, avoiding the seemingly inflammatory "fancruft" phrase, and I think it would be extremely difficult for anyone to argue that these nominations were made in bad faith and deserve blocking. (Indeed, no one has decided they need to take me to task on my talk page, as they had been doing yesterday.)

I am writing here not to prolong the issue in your eyes — as you can see above, I have attempted to make peace without administrator invention, once it was suggested that this issue was better handled without administrator intervention (see WP:ANI#Request that Admin Ask Fellow User to Cease Personal Attacks above).

But I did monitor this complaint when first brought against me, and I find it quite disturbing that an administrator is now seemingly ready to levy a block based on popular sentiment with no proof of the various accusations of disruption and malicious intent that have been tossed about by the people here and elsewhere. Thus, I'd respectfully suggest that said administrator reconsider their readiness to do same.

Thanks. — Mike •  18:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not currently following the Afd discussions, but if (for example) the articles you nominated yesterday are generating strong keep consensus, it probably doesn't make sense to nominate more in the same class. If the consensus is mixed, with some going each way, I would proceed with a small number per day. Having fanfic based articles for a few extra days is worth fostering an environment of calmness and deliberation that focuses on the article content and not the nominator. Thatcher131 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer your query, Thatcher131, without grabbing all the votes and calculating percentages to give you a precise answer, it's roughly a mixed bag. A very good portion of them are generating a delete consensus, a few are no-consensus, and I believe one or two are definitely leaning towards keeps (Star Trek: New Voyages, for example). — Mike •  19:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like on June 6 you nominated about 35 articles (Trek and Lost, mostly). I'd say that a high rate of deletions demonstrates good faith, and that somewhere there is a number (less than 35, obviously) that will let people focus on the article rather than you. Thatcher131 19:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I just gotta say that I looked into Mike's history of communications with others on this and I think that he's got a good head on his shoulders and his commitment here is exemplary. I'm not even saying that I have read all the individual AfDs and judged that I agree with deleting them—just that Mike has used the AfD process correctly. KWH 23:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Not to keep rehasing this matter, but this editor appears to be once again nominating AfDs. What seems to raise eyebrows is that two days after his self-nominated request for adminship failed -- which pointed out his limited understanding of WP policies, the first "oppose" suggesting greater participation in AfD-- this editor put forth dozens of deletion noms simultaneously. When criticised for this mass campaign by a number of other editors, he responded with claims of "assuming bad faith" and "incivility" -- at one point, engaging in an extensive revert war with one anon editor on two AfDs. (Note the repeated deletion of non-personal comments under the claim of WP:RPA, a stridently disputed guideline). This editor still fails to acknowledge that his mass AfD campaign has been disruptive, and in the case of the Lost articles he's listed-- DHARMA Initiative Stations, Oceanic Airlines, List of songs featured on Lost -- fruitless and time-wasting.

On his talk page and in comments on various AfD pages he accuses others of incivilities and bad faith, while simultaneously making comments like:

• "That one's going on my wall..."
• "If you find time inbetween writing your eloquent snarks..." ."

In short, this editor may have started out with "good intentions" but he's caused more harm and wikistress to others than had he followed AfD policy which advises that editors actually try to improve or fix a problem article prior to listing it. I would suggest that if this keeps up an RfC for user conduct be opened and this content be moved there.--Leflyman 21:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Metrocat sockpuppet

24.161.22.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) posted to my talk page unsigned, and when I went to look who it was, I saw it was one of three edits made by the account, the second of which was to an AN/I vandal from earlier this week, and in the third, the user identified themself as Metrocat, evading a ban. I blocked based on that, but I think indef is probably inappropriate for an IP. I don't know how to get much information from the WHOIS report, but could someone more IP savvy than I please reduce the block to whatever length is actually appropriate? -GTBacchus 03:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Our 'friend' Metrocat, or Thewolfstar is playing some cute games. The last user whose talkpage the IP commented on (their 'cousin') is Twasmetrec. The name is an anagram of "Merecat TWS", or Merecat (who Thewolfstar considered a friend) and TWS, or Thewolfstar.

But I wouldn't advocate blocking that account - give them the opportunity to try to do something right, and maybe they will realize that Misplaced Pages is quite welcoming to people who want to work on the encyclopedia.

The IP in question appears to be a RoadRunner account in Herndon, Virginia. It doesn't appear to be a proxy of any sort. I don't see a compelling reason to block; it only plays into this person's apparent persecution complex. KWH 04:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It was indeed Metrocat, who is indeed Thewolfstar, and it looks like he's only been on it the last few days (since the 5th); his IP appears to shift every three days or so. It's a dynamic RoadRunner IP, so I'd say a week will probably be sufficient, though he'll likely just force reconnect to get a new one.

On a related note, these are the same user:

• Metrocat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Twasmetrec (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Buckyball-z (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Macai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

No doubt; all the same user. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 04:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Jeez SJ, you stole my thunder... and you did it the easy way! KWH 04:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If anyone wants to lift or reduce the block, I have no problem with that. -GTBacchus 04:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

No, User:Macai is not a sock of User:Thewolfstar, he's her son; please see below. Bishonen | talk 10:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC).

I almost hate to throw this guy to the sharks...

Tonyphile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

...almost, but not quite. -GTBacchus 04:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't. If anyone feels like doing cleanup, he's also responsible for:

• Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Users (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Determination (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JlMB0 WALES (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Coproero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Beer God (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Christ Almighty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• BlankFlank (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• FunkDunker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Blocking the IPs to stop the flow as well. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 04:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

More of the same from Horace Manley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Kotepho 05:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe he's also

• ¢um (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ¢umbucket (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ¢luster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• £over (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A real charmer, it seems. -GTBacchus 05:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

He is:

• Horace Manley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Tyrell Incy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Beauford Spingolo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Will check on the above. Essjay (Talk • Connect ) 05:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the individual IP blocks are not quite effective, since new accounts are still pouring in. I suspect that those IPs might be dynamic, and that we might have to block a whole range of IP addresses to completely suppress this vandal. 05:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.117.4.132 (talk • contribs) .

Indeed, he is the accounts listed above by GTBacchus. 69.117.4.132 is right, individual blocks are not working here; I've checked the /16, and there don't appear to be any legit contributors in it, but a lot of this kind of vandalism. I've blocked it for 24 hours; feel free to unblock if legit collateral damage shows up (make sure it's an established user, not a new account, and let me know about it so I can look for any tie-ins), or to reblock if it continues past the 24 hours. The range is 70.218.0.0/16. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 05:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, isn't /16 something like 65,356 IPs? Wait a minute... 70.218.x.x.... I've seen that range... no, it was 70.213.x.x, here. WHOIS identifies those as the same. It was a very similar pattern, and someone identified (correctly?) that person as User:Dschor, if memory serves. -GTBacchus 05:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's about 65,000 addresses. And yes, 70.218 and 70.213 both belong to the same company, Cellco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless. Dschor has been in 70.218, but also in unrelated IPs. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 06:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

At it again:

• Edwardian Flamebait (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Created {{user tonee/}}, and I redeleted it, with salt. -GTBacchus 02:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Breaking UK laws

There is a concerted campaign by just a few hardened and very un-Christian individuals, including it would appear two administrators, to demonise Gregory Lauder-Frost. I myself would rather the page was just deleted as I see a biased presentation of anyone on Misplaced Pages as unfair. But now User:Humansdorpie has deliberately contravened both English and Scottish laws by deliberately and illegally posting information about legal difficulties Lauder-Frost had in 1992-3. Wikipedians must not think they can ride roughshod over our laws. I urge action to stop this continuing. Lightoftheworld 09:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Please be very careful, you are bordering on legal threats, and legal threats are cause for an immediate, permanent block from further editing. Misplaced Pages is bound by US law, not UK law; if you believe laws are being violated, you need to raise it with Wikimedia's legal department. Your first point of contact would be Wikimedia's attorney, Brad Patrick. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 11:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Re. the above, the following was posted on Humansdorpie talk page by User:213.122.46.228: You have deliberately chosen to flout the law because you think you are very clever. You are not. Believe me. Is this a threat? Yes, it certainly is. --Tyrenius 12:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Lightoftheworld indefinitely due to the above per WP:NLT. In my opinion, it is virtually beyond doubt that the IP address behind this post is Lightoftheworld, given that he has continued to carry on in the same vein. --Sam Blanning 12:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd urge caution about blocking people in this case. This has been a troubled article for some time, there are unsourced claims in it, and the intro indicates the subject is not being written about in a neutral tone. I've put the blp template on the talk page so the subject (if he's the one complaining) can see what policies ought to be followed. SlimVirgin 17:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Users cannnot expect to collaborate in writing an encyclopaedia with people they are suing or trying to get arrested. Preventing off-wiki intimidation takes precedence over everything else. He can withdraw his threats and edit (for good or for ill), or he can go to the police and not edit until legal action is completed. --Sam Blanning 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Preventing off-wiki intimidation takes precedence over everything else." Samuel, I agree that ought to be the case, but unfortunately it isn't. I also agree that editors can't be expected to collaborate with threats going on. All I know about this article is that it has a long and troubled history. It's a bio of a living person and so it has to be written in strict accordance with the content policies, and it currently isn't, so whoever is complaining about it is almost certainly right to do so. WP:BLP and the ArbCom both urge admins to handle complaints about living bios with sensitivity, so blocking the complainant may not be the best way to proceed, although I agree that he should offer constructive suggestions and not threats — but then again, this situation has been going on for a very long time. SlimVirgin 20:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If an article is in such a bad state that telling someone they are "evil" and "You are not immune from prosecution in this matter. I will be happy to act for GLF and we will locate you" is an acceptable reaction and behaviour that needs to be handled with sensitivity, then reduce the (WP:CIVIL)ing thing to a stub and start over from scratch if anyone really cares.

Let me put the sentence you quoted another way - keeping Humansdorpie on this project would be better for this encyclopaedia than keeping Lightoftheworld. (Though sadly, it's already too late .) --Sam Blanning 21:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully only for a cooling-off period, and he'll be back. From what I can tell, Humansdorpie was trying his best to improve the article - I really cannot see him having a personal stake in attacking Gregory Lauder-Frost. Unfortunately, Lightoftheworld and cronies/sockpuppets seemed to instantly believe anyone who wasn't 'with them' was an enemy.

I've noted on the article's talk page that I can't find any (online, at least) justification for Lightbringer's assertion that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 prohibits the mention of past, "spent" convictions when the information is obtained from public sources such as newspapers. It explicitly prohibits those with access to confidential records from releasing such info, but that doesn't apply here. In the UK, where suing for libel and defamation is commonplace, I'd have expected to find some mention of using this Act in such a way, and I did not. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope Humansdorpie comes back. I know what it feels like to be driven off by off-wiki attacks. As for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act: BLP says we should be sensitive to requests from subjects of bios to remove material that isn't relevant to their notability. I don't know how notable Lauder-Frost is, or exactly what he's notable for. I haven't heard of him apart from on Misplaced Pages and there doesn't seem to be a huge amount published. I'd therefore say that any minor convictions from a long time ago probably shouldn't be in the article. I don't know how others feel about that. I prefer to err on the side of caution where living people are concerned. SlimVirgin 22:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

His claim to notability is "as a political activist, describing himself as a "High Tory."" His own conduct in respect to the law is in this case highly relevant to his notability. Tyrenius 23:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

As I just commented on the article's talk page, I fail to be convinced by Lightbringer/Sussexman's arguments that mentioning his conviction is illegal in the UK, since they bring no evidence to the table to support it (and in any case, these legal arguments are irrelevant to Misplaced Pages itself or to non-UK editors). However, I also remain to be convinced that mention of the conviction is necessary.

As you mention on the talk page, it's best to avoid our making a judgment at all - if we can track down genuine press quotations, for instance, then we can use those. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of any mention of illegality mentioning something of that nature in the UK. Besides which it's US laws that are relevant, as Wiki is hosted in the US. Tyrenius 01:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You insulting someone by calling them "very un-Christian individuals" is pretty disgusting. --mboverload@ 19:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

One might quote certain parables about motes and beams and suchlike back at those who call others un-Christian while behaving badly themselves. Though the insult in "un-Christian" only works on those who consider themselves Christians. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

we disscussed a simular issue a while back WRT a canadain court order. the general consensus was that we should ignore them although of ocurse editors should always be mindful of their local laws.Geni 13:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think they are right as to UK law, but in the Robert I arbitration case we decided it didn't apply. I wonder though if the information is relevant. Gregory Lauder-Frost is mainly known for his political associations and views. It is hard to see how his legal difficulties are relevant or notable. If the point is to embarrass him, well done, but if the idea to record the history of his political life, it is a distraction. Fred Bauder 01:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Rollback abuse?

Can I have some comments about the behaviour of User:Rebecca, who repeatedly reverted normal edits on Psephos using the rollback function that is supposed to be for reverting vandalism? She has never explained her reverts either in edit summaries or on the talk page. Margana 13:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you're being pedantic with your reverts. A historian is a person who has studied history, or so says the article anyway. User:Adam Carr certainly qualifies as someone who studies history. Why isn't Adam a historian? These questions are probably better answered back at the talk page. -- Longhair 13:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What does your opinion about my reverts have to do with my question? It's not vandalism, is the point. I don't even know what Rebecca's problem is. If she is of the same opinion as you about the "historian" wording, fair enough, but she should have put that in her edit summary or on the talk page, no? Margana 13:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There was this revert yesterday with a comment of trolling. Before you ever edited that article the wording used to describe Carr was 'historian'. You keep taking it out, and it's not clear to anybody why. -- Longhair 14:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be grasping for excuses. Edit summaries for original, non-revert edits are not mandatory; especially since I made various other changes within the same edit, it wasn't very practical for me to explain all in an edit summary. However, I did subsequently discuss one of the points of my edit on the talk page, when there were objections. Unfortunately Rebecca didn't take part of the discussion, and I still don't know what her objection is. Her comment of "Stop trolling" was just an insult, since I was doing nothing like that. Margana 14:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

One thing is clear - Rebecca is using the rollback button on something other than vandalism, which is a clear violation of policy. I don't care about the rest of this, which is just content asshattery. I will have a word with Rebecca on her talk page. Proto||type 14:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Snoutwood (talk) 15:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What policy is that? Jkelly 16:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It isn't solid policy, but it's discouraged for use against anything but pure and clear-cut vandalism, and for good reason. The unhelpful edit summary and connotation with vandal-fighting makes its use in content disputes inappropriate. Snoutwood (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering if someone had slapped {{policy}} on Misplaced Pages:Rollback recently. Jkelly 16:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nah. Snoutwood (talk) 16:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I had a similar problem with Rebecca a few days ago; I added an expansion tag to the Third-wave feminism article, and explained my reasons on the discussion page. She reverted my addition (marked as a minor edit) without any explanation.--Anchoress 15:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

She has done this many times in the past over content disputes. Messages have been left on her talk page by several admins, and ignored AFAICS. Rich Farmbrough 15:48 10 June 2006 (GMT).

Reverts of non-vandalism without explanation are a bad idea, regardless of whether the rollback tool is used. Abuse of the rollback tool only makes it worse. I would say that Rebecca needs to be asked to revert with accurate edit comments, as a simple matter of courtesy and fairness. Al 16:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Margana: while you are not using the rollback tool, you are also reverting with content-free edit summaries. Is it too much to ask for you to have clean hands before complaining about someone else's behaviour? It takes two to revert-war, and you're being an enthusiastic revert warrior - constantly, if a view of your recent edits is any guide. Misplaced Pages should not be used as a battlefield, and that's what you're doing, article after article after article. I note your original edit to Psephos that started the whole thing was summary-free as well.

I would urge you to learn more collegial ways of improving Misplaced Pages than the battering-ram approach you are using right now. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 17:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice diversion. My original edit to Psephos was not a revert, and as I said above, it seemed neither practical nor particularly necessary to leave an edit summary; I didn't expect it to be controversial. When it turned out to be, I discussed it on the talk page, as I do with any other article where there's a dispute. How is that a "battering-ram approach"? Am I supposed to just let people revert my edits without explanation and be done with it? If they revert and refuse to explain themselves, I can't do much else than revert myself. Margana 20:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that just because you start a thread on AN/I you don't get to force everyone to stick within your definition of 'on topic'. You brought up Rebecca's behaviour during a revert war; that makes your behaviour also on topic, and not a 'diversion'. Since it turns out that you are also reverting without edit summaries, and making changes to articles without an edit summary, it seems that you're behaving similarly yourself - this makes your complaining about her behaviour sheer hypocrisy. As Tom Harrison says below: using rollback on non-vandalism isn't frowned upon because it's an admin function, but because it breaks our standards of civility by not explaining the reason for the revert. If you behave better than those you're complaining about, maybe I'd take you more seriously.

My comments about your confrontational approach to Misplaced Pages stem from looking at your recent contributions and finding you engaged in multiple, simultaneous edit and revert wars. Every Wiki-warrior claims the other guy started it and all they're doing is following suit: "I can't do much else than revert myself", to quote your own words back at you. Well ... there IS much else you can do. Starting with discussion, with using edit summaries that don't leave people feeling that you're trying to sneak in changes without anyone noticing, with trying to find compromise and an accurate statement that everyone can agree with. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

When I revert without an edit summary, it's because I explained myself in a previous summary or on the talk page. I do not revert without explanation. I don't care what "every Wiki-warrior claims", in my case it is evidently true that I didn't start reverting, and you can't show otherwise. And the fact that you did (and still do) try to find fault with me, without losing one word on Rebecca, shows that you are just trying to defend her by means of diversion. Margana 21:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

She's been uncivil, you've been uncivil. I'd rather you put more effort into avoiding conflict, improving your collaboration with other editors, and suchlike. Complaining to AN/I when your own hands aren't all that clean doesn't really leave you looking all that good, IMO. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 21:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

My hands are clean. Pray tell, how do I improve my collaboration with someone like Rebecca who abuses rollback and steadfastly refuses to talk? Be specific: assuming she continues that way, am I supposed to just give up on my edit, modify it by guessing what her objection may be (without knowing that, I can hardly work toward a compromise), or what? Margana 21:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the larger concern is not so much with the roll-back button as with the uninformative edit summary. A blank edit summary is uninformative, but so is "removed POV" or "NPOV" or "added clarity". Honestly, I'd rather see "rv - stoopid" than another "rv - pov". Tom Harrison 18:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Wait, does this mean that I'm violating policy by using my godmode-light script to revert edits that I didn't agree with? Uh-oh. ${\displaystyle Insertformulahere}$--mboverload@ 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. WP:CIVIL. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if I put in an edit summary its fine. --mboverload@ 21:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, so long as it's not just 'rv' ... Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 21:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree that a rollback with no summary is a violation of WP:CIVIL. I think it depends on the context and editing history, and the existing consensus on the page. Tom Harrison 21:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily in ALL cases, I'll give you - but still better provided than not. Rollbacks of pure vandalism do not need much explanation, of course. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 21:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Margana seems to think that the existence of this discussion gives him/her the right to revert to a version that has been rejected by the vast majority of contributors. Snottygobble 12:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Añoranza

This user is going to each article that has the term "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in it and removed the term stating "no propaganda terms" or has added POV tags to any use of the term. This user has done this on the following articles Jeffrey Chessani , Haditha killings , David Kay , Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr. , Martin Dempsey , even Get Fuzzy

Is this the current standing of Misplaced Pages policy that military operation names are not permitted on any article space? Or is this over zealous editing. I am fearing this user is attempting to remove any mention of the operation from Misplaced Pages space. --zero faults 15:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to add this user moved Operation Just Cause citing its a propaganda name, from what I see without any talk page disucssion except her own comment Talk:Operation_Just_Cause#Propaganda_title, to US invasion of Panama then started renaming all examples of Operation Just Cause from articles that contain the term. Is this the news Wiki policy? --zero faults 15:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

When a colloquial name exists it should be used in preference to the military propaganda name. For example: "Gulf War" instead of "Operation Desert Storm", "Iraq War" instead of "Operation Iraqi Freedom", "World War II" or "Second World War" instead of "The Emergency", etc. I think this user is being overzealous though: obviously the propaganda names are notable and need to be discussed, but they shouldn't be the primary name we use to refer to events. --Cyde↔Weys 16:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The user has attempted to remove the term from every article, sometimes causing it to be reffered to as both in the same article. Breaking the uniform of the article itself. For instance some state the places the person served by operation, then state in the article now, the non operation term. It seems to me its also sloppy editing as enough thought was not put into its effects. Considering all were made today in the span of 2 hours or so. Are operation names allows in the body of articles? I understand possibly redirecting titles, but there is no policy regarding article bodies I would assume. --zero faults 16:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue over names, but I would be reluctant to call an operational name a "propaganda name." Operational names may be chosen for propaganda purposes, but I think it is more NPOV to refer to an operational name. Moreover, there have been arguably more than 1 U.S. invasion of Panama, so how do we distinguish between them? --CSTAR 17:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I had not even thought of that, its one article now. I did not see a disambiguation page, perhaps there was not an article on one? I worry about the obliteration of the term throughout wikipedia, but not had thought about the point you brought up. --zero faults 17:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, Cyde. Operation names are unambiguous, official (at least for one side), and verifiable. Popular names for conflicts often don't get decided until years/decades later, when the historians start publishing. -- nae'blis _(talk) 22:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

No one would even think of naming World War II with an "official" Nazi term. Why then use propaganda terms like "Iraqi Freedom" or "Just Cause", the latter of which will not even allow most readers to guess which conflict is written about? Añoranza 00:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Añoranza has had a history of POV edits and demeanor, this is no different. By the logic he is using, the term "United States" would be a propaganda term because we are not currently united. Haizum 01:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm finding this logic more dillusional by the second. If the military gives an operation a name, that is its name, the propaganda value is irrelevant. Why is it OK to change the facts when it benefits the anti-American agenda? Haizum 01:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Its even being taken to the extreme as cited below Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:A.C3.B1oranza_again the user is creating problems with articles she is removing the wording from to the point where they are creating inconsistencies and redundant mentioning. When this issue is brought to their attention they say other people should fix it. There is even proof the user is not even read the articles before editing. Now there reason have even changed from propaganda terms do not belong on wikipedia, to I was doing it to prevent redirects. If we removed all terms that are deamed propaganda then we would have to remove Cold War, Holocaust (burnt offering to the Gods), etc. It is what it is called, they are operation names. --zero faults 01:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we stop the hyperbole and strawman arguments PLEASE? Note how the articles on the 2003 invasion of Iraq and Iraq War are located at sensible names and not at Operation Iraqi Freedom. The operation names as chosen by the U.S. government are specficially chosen for propaganda reasons. Additionally, we are writing a worldwide encyclopedia, and very few people from other countries are going to know U.S. military names for certain invasions, but all of them are going to know "Iraq War". It's just common sense. This isn't to defend Anoranza, who is apparently making detrimental edits. --Cyde↔Weys 02:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

When an article warrents it, we should use the military name. When the article warrents it, we should use 2003 invasion of Iraq. It's as simple as that. --mboverload@ 02:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

And I'm saying the article only warrants it when you're talking specifically about the propaganda name (e.g. why they chose "Operation Iraqi Freedom" over "Operation Iraqi Liberation"). When you're just talking about it in a normal historical context, as in "when the United States invaded Iraq", just say ... "when the United States invaded Iraq" or whatever. Very few people outside the U.S. know the propaganda names and they're less appropriate anyway. --Cyde↔Weys 02:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I still prefer to use the military name. After all, we call it operation overlord, not invasion of normandy...*actually checks before posting this*....wow, we actually don't call it Operation Overlord, we redirect it to Battle of Normandy. History is on your side in this debate, Cyde. I have changed my mind. --mboverload@ 03:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone outside of the US doesn't know the factual and official name for an operation, too bad. Plenty of people don't mind going back to Operation Anaconda and beating the drum about the US not being able to catch/kill UBL, so do you still want to change the name to "Operation Botched Attempt to Find UBL," if not, what other name would you give it? Please. Haizum 04:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

What an incredibly insipid view to have of a worldwide encyclopedia. Did you know that the majority of English speakers in the world do not reside in the United States? Saying "if you don't know the official United States name of the operation, too fucking bad" is patently absurd and is in direct contradiction with our mission. Misplaced Pages is not US-centric. --Cyde↔Weys 13:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the United States, but it has everything to do with the facts. I will say that it would make sense to use a general name and a specific operational name, eg, The First Gulf War / Operation Desert Storm. I believe the article is already written that way...*checks*...yes, it is. For smaller operations like Operation Anaconda I honestly don't see what other name it could be given. Haizum 23:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the edits themselves are legitimate, I believe edit summaries such as 'No propaganda terms, please' cast unwarranted aspersions on previous editors' motives. I would suggest that such edits be explained more diplomatically in future. Perodicticus 11:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Operational names are often used when there is no generally accepted name otherwise, or if the operational name itself is the commonly used term to describe the battle that occured. Other times one side or another names the battle a name, such as First Battle of Bull Run. As with this, the US name not accepted by the Confederates, and they had their own name for it, First Battle of Manassas, which redirects to the previous page. Names are rarely universal in war. Calling every operation in any country an invasion isnt correct, for instance was Operation Desert Fox an invasion of Iraq? When referring to the event, most do not call it "Bombardment of Iraq" but instead Operation Desert Fox. When most people refer to Operation Rolling Thunder, they call it this rather than "Bombardment of North Vietnam." It does not violate NPOV to call them these code names or government chosen battle names if these battle names or operation names have entered the vocabulary of the public. When most people think of the Iraq War, they call it this, not Operation Iraqi Freedom (which was only the US operation that took place in the invasion). Thus Iraq War is aptly named, not because it is totally neutral, for instance the insurgents might call it the American War like Vietnam called their war, or perhaps they have a different name entirely. But to us english speaking public, Iraq War is the standard. If most people called World War Two "The Crisis" then that would be what we call it, but as they do not we call it what is the most common name, World War Two.

So to reiterate, we name wars, operations, and battles not because they were chosen neutrally, by a third party, or by the involved parties, but instead because they have entered society and become the accepted name for the respective event. Anoranzo has consistently ignored this and consistently edited likewise, and it has been detrimental to the articles, giving false impressions both of the conflicts the articles are about, and of Misplaced Pages's policy on neutrality. Rangeley 21:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User inserting ads in articles on congresspeople

Not sure if this is the right place to report this, but User:RebeccaM Contributions is systematically inserting links to on the pages of many members of congress. The page she is linking to lists the candidates in the congressman's current election race. This information is usually contained in the body of the article so the links are pretty non-significant. I'm guessing this is linkspan. Would someone mind taking a look? GabrielF 17:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the targets of those links they appear to not contain adverts but are listings of the other candidates in a given race in which they are involved. As such I'd be inclined to accept them as useful links. --Vamp:Willow 18:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Maria10029 was doing the exact same behavior recently and continued until he/she got up to the spam4 warning. This may be something to keep an eye on. --Takeel 16:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Tony Sidaway

This user is trolling, and should know better, being an admin.

• first, he deletes a DRV i put up re Userbox . That has now been recreated and received some good intelligent discussion, leading to a resolution of the issue which could not have happened if tony had his way.
• I put a comment on his talk page asking him to talk about it, and he deletes the comment.
• And again... i continue to try and get him to address the real issue, but he keeps deleting my edits
• I find on his talk page that i'm not the only one disturbed by his behaviour. You'll have to check the history, he keeps deleting any posts which are not favourable to him.
• He creates a sockpuppet, User:64.132.163.178, and blows his own trumpet on his userpage, about him being a good boy and everything, before deleting the discussion because he realised that he got totally owned.
• I think an admin or someone with a bit of power ought to knock him down a few bars. Being an admin doesn't make you a god, as most admins would be happy to admit, because they can have intelligent discussions and accept criticism, unlike tony.
• Best outcome = deadmin, most likely = severe talking to by another admin, a 'please explain', most dangerous = he just continues on his vandalism rampage and deletes this post, in which case i will refer the matter to another admin via their talk page.

THE KING 18:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

/me notes that "User:64.132.163.178" is a non-logged in IP-user and not a "sockpuppet". --Vamp:Willow 18:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• debatable. If it's just him but not logged in, it's still unacceptable to masquarade as someone else and write about how good he is on his talk page. THE KING 18:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

  Um, sessions drop all the time. Assume good faith and all that. Mackensen (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. A checkuser would have to be performed in order to establish that, and even so, it's not masquerading (he would have to get another username to do so) -- Drini 18:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The edits by 64.132.163.178 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) are not authored by me. I've been deleting edits by THE_KING (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) from my talk page because he's one of a few noisemaking nuisances currently putting aggressive nonsense there. --Tony Sidaway 18:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Why were you unwilling to respond to my requests for explanation of your random deletion of the userbox drv then? Anyway this isn't about you creating a sockpuppet its about deleting my edits and then not being willing to talk about it or explain your actions. I think you thought i'd just forget if you kept deleting me often enough. THE KING 18:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I can verify that Tony Sidaway is telling the truth here (regarding authorship). Mackensen (talk) 18:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Tony is not vandalizing, you have accused him of such with no diffs and no evidence. I strongly advise you to constrain yourself to actual areas of concern rather than tossing about accusations with no substance. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 19:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tony and Cyde...some of the most (in)famous admins we have. It's always about them, what about the other admins? Why can't we pay attention to them, too? =D However, in this incident I would have to see much more evidence against Tony to even start insulting him. You know, that AGF thing we have floating around....--mboverload@ 19:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• He's done it again! i was about to add a comment and found the page missing - cant this editor see how much this pisses other editors off? THE KING 19:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There was already a DRV debate some time ago which upheld deletion. There's no need to go through it again. Consider this your civility warning as well–such language is completely uncalled for. Mackensen (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

For background, I should add that the deletion of Userbox has been discussed to death. It has not been restored, contrary to this very confused individual's belief. I have just deleted an attempt to revive this tired subject YET AGAIN from DRV. --Tony Sidaway 19:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Without explaining it - despite repeated attempts at procuring an answer from you. Also i'm not confused - you're the confused one: i said 'resolved' not 'restored'. THE KING 19:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To preface this comment, in the past me and Tony haven't exactly agreed...on anything =D. However in this case I believe Tony to be in the %100 right. Although I usually don't like people removing other people's comments from their talk page, I think your comments are there just to cause trouble and I know I wouldn't blame anyone for removing them. There IS a reason that Userbox doesn't have a redirect, I even tried to get it unprotected so I could put a redirect but I widthdrew my nomination because I actually took the time to listen. Perhaps you should try this thing called "listening". People don't just do random things for no reason. --mboverload@ 19:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah i know what's going on re userbox now. But i dont see why tony couldn't have just told me when he deleted my comments. I am fully aware of what's going on with userbox. it just annoys me how this tony fellow thinks he's god. THE KING 19:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Thinks he's god? You've clearly never spoken to him properly. --Lord Deskana 19:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Thinks! Ha! --Tony Sidaway 19:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Hehe =D --mboverload@ 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
      • It's no laughing matter. If it still existed, i'd list tony on my list of people who need a kick up the arse. Excuse the lannguage, it was a subsection of my userpage that no longer exists due to obvious reasons. THE KING 19:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Well, if you insist on keeping this serious, I'm going to give you a three-hour cooling-off block the next time you verbally assault someone. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 19:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
          • • • Roger that. THE KING 19:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot think of a better chance to note this classic for no reason at all. Bonus points in that this drama seems to be related to Userboxen and DRV. --Avillia 19:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Dammit Avillia, stop trolling. Don't make me get out my asbestos chainsaw again. --Cyde↔Weys 19:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

mboverload redirects DRV to User:Cyde

If we still had the separate Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Userbox debates we could simply replace it with #REDIRECT ] without losing much of worth. --Sam Blanning 19:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

dueds not funny. Take it too #wikipedia-en-admins.Geni 13:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• King, I would suggest that it may not be wise, when attempting to suggest that someone else is not behaving the way you would like, to bring up as evidence their removal of something you wrote that is blatantly a personal attack, amazingly incivil, and otherwise unproductive. Do you expect any sympathy or consideration when people can read the very you provide and see you tossing around swear words, saying "You bloody idiot", and "Please use your brain"? You make it very hard for people to even consider your position. --Improv 23:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Irishpunktom 3rr on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

I plan to block Irishpunktom for one week based on his history of edit-warring and previous blocks for 3RR. Since it's a long block, I thought I'd mention it here first in case anyone wants to comment. Tom Harrison 18:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Irishpunktom has violated 3RR on Islam in the Soviet Union today. I didn't report him yet, still hoping he would self-revert. Pecher 19:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugg, anyone who violates 3RR MULTIPLE times deserves a nice long block to cool off. No problem here. --mboverload@ 19:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him for one week. Tom Harrison 20:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've unblocked him so he can respond to the Arbcom. I asked him not to edit anything unrelated to his arbitration, and I think he'll respect that. Tom Harrison 22:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The application for arbitration is here. --Tony Sidaway 22

43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack

This edit accused me of being rascist and threatening the editor and the editor's son. While it almost goes without saying that I am not rascist, I want to specifically point out that I had no idea or reason to believe that this particular editor was black. I blocked the editor for vandalism after the editor had been warned by many independent editors. I reverted the attack but did not extend the block (primarily because the editor is using an IP address). I did, however, mark that user talk page as protected. Am I meant to make a note of that anywhere else? Also, I welcome examination of my actions here in case it turns out I exceeded my authority here. --Yamla 20:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What a complete douchebag. I think you may have been a little too easy on him. --mboverload@ 20:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of discrimination:

17:45, June 3, 2006 Cyde blocked "ImAnElderlyHandicappedHomosexual.DontBlockMeThatsDiscrimination. (contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite (ImAYouthfulAbleBodiedHeterosexualAdmin.DontContestThisBlockIt'sAnInapporpriateUsername,NotDiscrimination).

Someone pulling the race card. I hate it when people do that. Will (_@) T 20:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The user was warned by several people, but continued adding nonsense, and made personal attacks. Finally you blocked them. You actions were absolutely correct. Tom Harrison 20:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yamla, you were one of the ones combatting me, when I was trying to get rid of the racist slurs in the Paris Hilton article. It is not very nice when you are called a racist, is it? It is even worse, if you are a pretty young woman. Now you can understand what I was getting at. Wallie 22:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What's that suppose to mean... Sasquatch t|c 23:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Añoranza again

The user is once again up to removing all mentioning of Operation Iraqi Freedom from Misplaced Pages stating "an encyclopedia should not use propaganda terms". Its not just the removal of Operation names reagrding the US only. The user is also creating articles where sometimes they use operation names and sometimes they do not, further more they are not taking into account that wars are split into multiple operations and some soldiers and officials only serve during certain parts, therefore removing all mention of the operations with the larger war is not as specific as referencing it by operation name. The worst part is they are creating situations where the userbox states the person served in OIF but OIF isnt mentioned in the article anymore like in the case ofJeffrey_Chessani. Lastly the edits are sloppy, they are removing the term then telling other editors to clean up the rest of the article with edits summaries like this "revert as propaganda terms are inappropriate. If you find more, please remove them, too" , its not other editors job to clean up articles that other editors are knowingly creating problems in. Its even more proof as the last edit shows another operation name right before the one she is constantly attempting to remove, impossible to miss if this user was reading the articles before editing them and not blanket editing with no concern for structure and consistency.

Redundancy Issues - Consistency Issues - Jeffrey_Chessani and OICW having all operation names except for OIF, including the sentence before

Can someone please stop this user, they are editing every page with the term. --zero faults 23:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Pluralis majestatis for me coming from a user who supports sockpuppets? Who removes complaints from his talk page, personally attacks me, ignores NPOV and even reverts corrected typos? Añoranza 00:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There is an issue here, please stop trying to divert the topic. Thank you. --zero faults 00:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Your issue is you are unhappy with me. I am unhappy with you. Avoiding redirects is nothing wrong. Añoranza 00:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That was not your cited reason oddly enough. Your own words speak against you. The article has been moved back as well, I think its time you revert all the articles back to avoid redirects since its your primary concern. --zero faults 00:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Your complaint here was about Operation Iraqi Freedom, which redirects to Iraq war. Añoranza 00:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Your summaries have already been shown, you are making yourself look bad by trying to hide your edits via another reason. To avoid redirects you could have formatted the links with the | symbol, however you already know that cause you used it today. --zero faults 00:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Proof this user is now lying as to their intent, after stating above its because of redirects, they have now edited an article with the summary of propaganda as show above numerous times. Once again also showing they are attempting to remove all mention of the term from Misplaced Pages. They have even edited articles on Michael Jordan and a cartoon strip. --zero faults 01:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You were complaining here about a case where removing the propaganda term even avoided a redirect. I also remove propaganda terms in a case where the article title has not yet been rendered neutral. So what? Añoranza 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We will let an admin decide on your wholesale removal of every mention you can find of Operation Iraqi Freedom, including in Michael Jordans article and a comic strip. I am done arguing with you and your double talk. Your summaries speak for themselves, especially in an article where you used both reasons like Norman_Schwarzkopf,_Jr. --zero faults 01:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Proof user is not even reading articles - David_Kay article still states "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in section "Subsequent Interviews" proving the user is not even reading the articles before editing and is creating inconsistencies. --zero faults 01:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you two calm down a bit, please. This is a bit much. Some admin is likely to block both of you. Thanks. --John Nagle 01:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Añoranza has been blocked for violating the three-revert rule. JDoorjam Talk 01:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

JDoorjam blocked me for "violation of 3RR" because he apparently does not know how to count up to high numbers. Blocking someone you were in a conflict with yourself is unacceptable, in this case it was even without any warning, and instead of apologizing he threatens me. Añoranza 02:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd block Añoranza again, for incivility, but there might be a bit of a conflict of interest there. I invite anyone else to review. JDoorjam Talk 02:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You block me because you cannot count up to three, in spite of being involved in the conflict yourself, then your threaten me instead of apologizing, and now you complain about incivility? I'd call that barefaced. Añoranza 03:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Please cease your personal attacks now. --mboverload@ 03:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll be more than happy to do it if he keeps up like above. --InShaneee 03:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Blocked Anoraza one week. Intolerable troll. Official reason: CIV, NPA, revert warring, NPOV vio, WP:NOT censored vio. NSLE_(T+C) at 03:23 UTC (2006-06-09)

I'm NOT questioning your decision (thanks), but what does "WP:NOT censored vio" mean? --mboverload@ 03:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It's cryptic but it means that Misplaced Pages is not censored and the user is trying to censor others, so they are violating that principle. --Woohookitty 04:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I really think a One Week block of Anoranza for contesting a block is uncalled for. Particularly given Zero's history of inciting conflict and other questionable behavior like altering other people's comments. But Zero was very successful in angering Anoranza, I'll give him that. Theres also a RFC Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Zer0faults up about this and I think Anoranza should be allowed to complete it. -- Mr. Tibbs 07:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read what happened there comments weren't altered, Nescio was attempting to alter them I was attempting to preserve them in the way they were when I replied to them. This is just proof of the witchunt that my RfC is going to turn into. Where people are not even posting about the current dispute. --zero faults 10:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

He can complete it when he finished his newly-reset one week block for editing with IPs to circumvent his block here. NSLE_(T+C) at 08:46 UTC (2006-06-09)

User:Zer0faults and User talk:NSLE have teamed up to censor comments and push propaganda. I have been blocked by User talk:NSLE to prevent me from making comments here. Añoranza 09:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Baseless accusations won't get you anywhere. If you refuse to stop evading your block, an indefinite block may be appropriate. NSLE _(T+C) at 09:30 UTC (2006-06-09)

After confiming it with Kelly Martin, this is definetely not Anoraza. I restored the original block (saving a whole 5 hours!) Sasquatch t|c 23:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Collin marks

• Collin marks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Vandalism-only account. Danny Lilithborne 01:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll take care of it, but this is what WP:AIV is for. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
    • My original idea was to post it there, but I was told AIV was only for those who'd gone through the full warn template process. Danny Lilithborne 01:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Process? Good grief. — Jun. 9, '06 <freak|talk>

ShootJar

ShootJar (talk · contribs) has been adding the line "This so called encyclopedia is largely biased and unreliable. For a resource you can trust, please visit Encyclopedia Britannica" to various (seemingly random) articles. Possibly because his proposal for admin rights and page protection has met with a lukewarm response? It's a strange one. I've given test4 but I'd like a fresh pair of eyes to help decide if other measures are in order, thoughts? Deizio talk 01:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

He's vandalized about 20 articles in less than a half hour, although he appears to have stopped for the time being. I've added a very stern warning. If it keeps going, skip straight to a fairly long block. --Avillia 02:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've given a 48-hour cool-off, that was just too much. RadioKirk talk to me 02:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe tack on abother 40 minutes...just to be sure =D --mboverload@ 03:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I for one think User:ShootJar/Proposal and User:ShootJar/ProtectionProposal are definitely worth taking a look at. Don't dismiss this user's ideas simply because of past blocks. I do agree that some of the energy is misguided though. Haizum 05:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. He's annoying, and he's violating WP:POINT, but he may not be wrong. --John Nagle 06:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that the user's proposals are not entirely without merit; however, if a user is on a WP:POINT crusade, (s)he has to be stopped to limit the damage. RadioKirk talk to me 00:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

We're a quick community. I was just looking at that proposal linked from Sean Black's talk page, checked the contributions and was headed over here. The user hasn't enabled email, so anybody know what's going on? Teke 05:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism on List of Croatians

The page List of Croatians has been repeatedly vandalised by bad jokes about Bush, Isaac Newton or Napoleon being Croats, possibly (according to other edits by these unlogged user) in attempts to mock Croats.

Here is the chronology:

1. 31 May 2006: Bush joke by 4.249.9.39, who also contributed to Image talk:Lipadom.jpg
2. 1 June 2006: Newton joke by 64.18.16.251 - this IP address is used by single user since september 2005.
3. 7 June 2006: Newton joke by 4.249.90.168 (single edit from this IP address)
4. 9 June 2006: Napoleon joke by 4.249.9.232, who also contributed to Talk:List of Croatians

I believe that this might be the same person - user behind IP 64.18.16.251. After examining histories of articles edited by 64.18.16.251, I believe I know who he is (regarding his "real" username), but I don't know if that is relevant.

Can someone please investigate this and try to stop this vandal. I don't know is this a case of vandalism of a single user with multiple IP adresses or just meat-puppet vandalism.

Anyway, as You can see by dates listed, it's becoming more and more often and I believe this user has to be stopped. --Ante Perkovic 08:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not exactly high-volume vandalism - if you have the page on your watchlist, reverting nonsense every few days isn't a big deal. --ajn (talk) 08:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Macai is not a sock of User:Thewolfstar

Re "Metrocat sockpuppet" above: User:Macai is not a sock. He's Thewolfstar's 18-year-old son, living at home, sharing a LAN network with her. I have spoken with Macai and believe we should assume good faith here. For one thing, I saw Thewolfstar referring to him several times before she was in any trouble or could have had any reason to lie about it. Also Macai has never edited abusively. In fact, now he doesn't edit at all, being hit by his mother's blocks — compare mine and Demi's conversation with him on his talkpage. Is it possible to do anything about this? At a minimum, it would be nice to raise some awareness about this young editor, so he doesn't keep getting labelled a vandal sock. I realize it's difficult to let him edit as long as he shares a unique IP with a community-banned family member. Incidentally, Essjay has endorsed my description of Macai's situation as likely, in this conversation on the CheckUser page: Bishonen | talk 10:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC).

• We are transitioning RFCU over to individual subpages for each request. Thewolfstar's page is Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Thewolfstar. Right now it only has the most recent request but previous archived requests will eventually get copied onto the same page as we convert the archived requests from the old to the new system. Thatcher131 12:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• I archived the prior case to the same page. Thatcher131 13:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The new system will help greatly with this; by keeping an easy to check index of checks, and keeping as many as possible together on one page, we will make it easier to note these kinds of things, so they don't turn up again and have the same problem happen. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 02:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Unblock request

Zigzogger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Zigz0gger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Big.P (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Biggie.P (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) From an email request for an unblock. Could someone look into this request.

"Please check out my user page and look into this. Please also unblock me and post that I have been maliciously framed. I have NEVER used obsenities or vandalized any page. Someone, most likely the person who goes by the usernames Big.P and Biggie.P, created and username called "Zigz0gger" and made the same arguments that I did, but using abusive and obsene language." see:

Also has request on talk page. Regards, FloNight 11:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Biggie.P hasn't edited since late last year, and it seems likely that Big.P is the same user (account created a couple of days after the first one stopped editing). There may be more going on here than meets the eye - user:Zigzogger was temp blocked by BrokenSegue for "harassment, abuse, and reposting of an AfD'd article", and then permanently blocked later in the day. I have to say I can't see any evidence of the first two from that account, but user:Zigz0gger (created the same day as Zigzogger's blocking, but prior to the temp block) was undoubtedly abusive and harassing. I'm going to request a checkuser on these accounts. --ajn (talk) 12:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears that at the time the two accounts were blocked (May 21) there was no discussion on AN/I and no Checkuser request made. Apparently the blocking admin assumed sockpuppetry without confirming it. Thatcher131 12:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a note, not necessarily relevant to this case, but to make sure it's said: Obvious sockpuppets may be blocked without checkuser. Checkuser is just a tool to confirm what is already known, and if it doesn't appear to need confirmation, there is no need to checkuser. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 00:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but if Zigz0gger does a bad thing, IMO the chance that Zigz0gger is impersonating Zigzogger is at least as good, if not marginally better than, Zigz0gger being a sockpuppet of Zigzogger. That doesn't seem to have been (publicly) considered in this case. Thatcher131 07:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Kitteneatkitten's return to Misplaced Pages now might be relevant. Kitteneatkitten (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Similar ideology and activity on Classical liberalism. --FloNight 14:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Added to the RFCU case. --ajn (talk) 14:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah the checkuser case is done. Checkuser said, "Big.P is Zigz0gger." Kevin_b_er 23:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

And Zigzogger is Kitteneatkitten. We need to see if Zigzogger and Kitteneatkitten were used in an abusive way. Otherwise the sockpuppets are not relevant. FloNight 00:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

What I don't like is the fact that zigzogger was indefinately blocked due to impersonating sockpuppet. But use of a sockpuppet like zigzogger did to 'evade' a ban now with Kitteneatkitten means that ban/block counters should be reset. Opinion and suggestion: So zigzogger gets a 48+ hr ban (maybe more, since the sock puppet violated 3RR). And then, maybe some more for incivility by zigzogger because he/she kept spouting off on their talk page throwing accusations(which weren't known to be definitively correct at the time) at Big.P after being indef blocked. Kevin_b_er 00:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this needs more discussion. First, User:Kitteneatkitten is an older and more active account than User:Zigzogger. I consider User:Zigzoggerthe sock. Second, you may have miss stated the case. User:Kitteneatkitten, did not edit any article since May 19. Blocks are not suppose to be punitive. I don't really consider this edit done today invading a block. Also, perhaps Kitteneatkitten/zigzogger deserves an apology for being falsely indef blocked. FloNight 01:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't really here beyond to try to get the indef block recinded after I saw the checkuser. I made a case above that it could be resolved by going and removing the indef block, then doing that reset the block counter(which was at 48 hrs before being extended to indef) which is in some policy I can't find at the moment. If someone was really irate about it, longer than 48, but not indef. That was a suggestion. The fact that kitteneatkitten is older than zigzogger makes things complicated, but... I'm not an administrator. I've notified RasputinAXP, however, as he made extensive modifications to the blocking structure of this incident. Sorry if I've caused any confusion for you flo, I just felt sympathy due to zigz0gger and simple of matter of getting nailed with indef due to impersonation by sock is a darn evil thing to have happen to a someone. Don't wheel war because of what I've said though, and strike out bits of it if need be. -- Kevin_b_er 03:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I already left an apology on Zigzogger's talk. I saw the messages Big P left on their user page. I feel terrible that Big P tried to cause me to have bad feeling toward Zig. As far as I'm concerned there should be no further block. I thought you were trying to cause a block to continue for 48 more hours. I think the user should be able to choose between Kitteneatkitten or Zigzogger. I left a message on the talk page asking Zig about this. Don't worry, I'm not a warrior. : - ) FloNight 04:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not again Zig reverting to Kitteneatkitten and having User:Zigzogger locked out as a sock. I felt very bad for Zig, as Kevin said above it was a Very Bad Thing that Big.P did, and I've blocked him for a month, and that's only because other than this incident and a bout of incivility he's been something of a contributing member of the community. I still feel he needs a longer time-out, but in the end the month may be enough. I'd like to avoid having to bring this to RFC or Arbcom, because they're overworked enough as it is. man, you people make my wikibreak tough  RasputinAXP  c 12:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Shweeny666 indefinitely blocked, please review

Shweeny666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has continually vandalised Misplaced Pages, e.g. right back to his first edit . He has been blocked twice: once indefinitely by Curps, reduced to 48 hours, once by me for 48 hours, and this is his third block. He makes good-faith contributions as well, but as far as I can see they are all minor, some to the point of emptiness, and some may be to hide the previous vandalism to deceive people who view only the last diff.

This user just doesn't get that Misplaced Pages is not a playground and there is no pressing reason to keep him here. I believe he should be considered indefinitely banned per exhausted community patience. Three other users have already voiced this belief on his talk page. --Sam Blanning 14:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good block. Now, remove this section, it's crowding the noticeboard. — Jun. 9, '06 <freak|talk>

A problem found googling zine page

Hello, i saw this comment on the Talk:Zine page:

When I googled zines, I got a link to this wikipedia page, but this is what the description said:

Zine - Misplaced Pages, the 💕Zines are fucking gay only fucking fags do zines. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Zine". Views. Article · Discussion · Edit this page · History ... en.wikipedia.org/Zine - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Is this vanadlism that was removed? How long before it stops showing up on google? Rocketqueen 15:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

i checked and its true, there is still the abusive message coming up in the page summary in google ... i dont know how to go about fixing it. hope someone does! if this isnt the right place to post, please advise where i should go. cheers, Mujinga 16:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing we can do but wait for Google's next crawl. RadioKirk talk to me 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIW my general impression is that the crawl revisits every week or two. Generally, the cached versions you find of pages tend to be within the last ten days. This was picked up on the 7th, so it should be gone by mid-month. May be interesting to keep an eye on it and see when it changes. Fan1967 16:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks for prompt advice, yeah i will try to keep an eye on it. Mujinga 16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

According to this page on Google's site, Google can be contacted to expedite the clearance of undesirable cached pages. It might be worth investigating this. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Bad luck they cached that version. However, it will disappear, but how about waybackmachine where they might store a vandalised version for ever. Has this been addressed anywhere? Tyrenius 01:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Does it matter? Wayback stores a whole mess of old versions of each page, as does another website known as "Misplaced Pages". --Carnildo 03:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It matters less in the case here than it does in certain other cases found on this page. When Misplaced Pages 'decides' that something shouldn't be included in its corpus, the best of all possible worlds would have 'external' representations of that corpus faithfully reproduce the original (flaws and all). The Internet Archive is another matter altogether considering its status as an 'admissible in court' historical reference. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Sock/Meatpuppet issue at AfD

At Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Brisbane_Grammar_School_(2nd_nomination) User:19748 and his merrymen are sock or meatpuppeting for the deletion of the article. It's humerous to say the least, but my concern is that some of them have stolen the user pages of other editors to pose as their own (a way of trying to make themselves look like they're experienced users). What's the proper way to handle this? Blanking the user page? Among them is User:Tattoo678 who ripped off User:Autopilots's page and User:Pulsar_vectram who copied User:Bisco's page. Metros232 18:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd block the page and put a sockpuppet notice up, if you're completely sure it's a sockpuppet. Copying a userpage is kosher under Misplaced Pages rules, technically, but then so is blanking it. -- SCZenz 18:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you copy a user's userpage without noting where you got it from, doesn't that break the GFDL? --Sam Blanning 19:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This is true. A link alone would satisfy the GFDL, but they don't seem to have wanted to include such a link. --Avillia 19:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

They're probably not aware of the requirement. They didn't seem to be trying to hide meatpuppeting—quite the reverse. Tyrenius 01:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

True, but they're not exactly taking the pages to be their own. Like, for example, Tattoo678's page where he counts himself as an inclusionist (yet is trying desperately to have a page deleted) and says their join date was in October of 2004. Metros232 01:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry/Libelous links from User:167.191.250.81

I'm a fairly new user who noticed a libelous link added to the Talk:Victor Ashe page yesterday. I reverted the edit, documented this stuff and put comments on the user's talk page. I also put the tag on requesting assistance. I notice User:167.191.250.81 has since deleted most of my comments as well as an earlier, unrelated warning from Nlu.

This user has already been tagged by Nlu as a possible sockpuppet of User:70.231.240.13

I'm hardly the Wiki-sheriff, just a bystander that saw something going on. I am unsure of how to be handling this -- can some grown-up help with this or at least look into it? Thanks!--A. B. 18:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Replied on A.B.'s talk page w/r/to the excision from the history of the offending edit, viz., to the effect that such excision isn't necessary, although there's no harm done if someone wants to remove it; oversight won't be required, as there's only one edit to be removed. 167.191.250.81 appears to be making fine edits to many articles but exclusively disruptive edits to articles involving George W. Bush; no block appears necessary right now, inasmuch as the IP hasn't vandalized in a good while (except to remove warnings from his talk page, which warnings have been replaced). Joe 19:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Israeli West Bank barrier/Apartheid wall

After When it became clear that the article Apartheid wall was to be merged and redirected to Israeli West Bank barrier as per the results of the AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Apartheid wall, User:Homeontherange recreated it under a different name, Israeli West Bank barrier/Apartheid wall.Timothy Usher 20:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you've got the chonology wrong. I created it at 23:13, 3 June 2006 as a precursor to actually doing the merge. The Apartheid wall article was redirected at 03:38 4 June 2006 so you've got it reversed when you claim I created the sub after the redirect. If you check the history for Israeli West Bank barrier you'll see that I began the actual merge. The sub was supposed to have been deleted after the merge was completed. It serves no purpose now and should be deleted. Homey 23:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It must be speedy deleted as a duplicate of an existing article. Pecher 20:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Homey 00:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this whole problem is getting out of hand, and the disucssion about the many articles is at to many places. I seriously think there should be an intervention from uninvolved admins and the discussion about this range of topics, moves, and content should be centralised at a single page.-- Kim van der Linde 20:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The discussion should be focused on two aspects which are realted:

1. sources used by Homey when he created the articles WP:RS
2. Homey' behaviour in these set of articles i.e. violations of WP:Point, WP:Not

Zeq 20:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, the problem is not only User:Homeontherange. -- Kim van der Linde 20:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've placed it in Homey's userspace; he can do what he likes with his personal version there. Jayjg 21:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, if you check the history of the article you'll see it was created near the end of the AFD on Apartheid wall - an AFD that had a consensus of mergeto Israeli West Bank barrier. I created the subpage as a percursor to the merge in case the reviewing admin deleted or redirected the article without implementing the merge himself. So for heavens sake, relax. Homey 23:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Posted on User:Timothy Usher: You should have just asked me.

It wasn't recreated. On June 3, the day before the Apartheid wall article AFD ended and in anticipation of the finding of a consensus to merge I copied the article to a subpage of Israeli West Bank barrier so I could undertake the merge once the AFD was complete. I anticipated that the reviwing admin might blank and redirect the page without merging it. S/he did so on June 4 and once that happened I copied the contents of the subpage and pasted it into the main article thus executing the merge. Jayjg then made some adjustments. I had intended to delete the page but forgot. If you had brought it to *my* attention I would have deleted it. Instead you tried to make a federal case out of it.

I really, really am tired of your fishing expeditions Zeq. Timothy, why did you wrongly assert that I created the subpage *after* the AFD ended when, in fact, I created it the day before? I'd appreciate it if you corrected your incorrect statement on WP:ANI. Homey 01:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

As Homeontherange has requested an apology for the word "After" in my post above, I've striken it out. For the record, he did not create it after the formal end of the AfD, but when it became clear that the AfD would result in the articles' merger with Israeli West Bank barrier. I apologize for whatever distress he might have suffered due to this inaccuracy.Timothy Usher 01:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Plausible deniability (talk · contribs) Edit War in Democracy Now

Check out the Democracy Now article, there is an edit war going on in that article. The User:Plausible deniability has been not logging in and reverting in order to avoid being caught for edit warring. At one point, I warned him in his talk page about the 3RR and he did a fourth revert using his IP to try an avoid the rule. I didn't want to call him out on it because a block so early after registration sets off the "vandal/pov pusher" alarm and I didn't want to bite the newcomer. This however has gotten to far, he is continuing to log off to avoid being called on edit warring. ...I also suspect this might be his as well. --Jersey Devil 22:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Maria10029

Hi, administrators. I'm trying really hard to assume good faith, but something about the edits being made by Maria10029 doesn't seem right to me. Should I try harder to assume good faith in this case, or is something not-good really happening? --Takeel 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, IMHO, it doesn't seem too bad......she's spamming to a .org site, which is not-for-profit, and it appears to be an information directory..-- The ikiroid  22:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Maria10029 got warned up to spam4 on her talk page, and then suddenly stopped posting links. Is there any way to get Maria10029's spammy links mass-reverted? --Takeel 22:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've left the user a note. RadioKirk talk to me 23:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Soliciting a 15 year old and another for sexually explict chat on and off Misplaced Pages - URGENT

I have come across a possibly disturbing thing concerning several of our users. User:JamieAdams (who claims to be 15) has been encouraging others to come on Yahoo to talk with him.
Warning: Explict
Chat between JamieAdams and User:Pn355
JamieAdams talking with User:McDudley
Where Dudley says he is 15

Please advise --mboverload@ 22:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

My advice: delete these posts and indefinitely block the involved users.Timothy Usher 22:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked JamieAdams and Pn355 indefinitely on the basis of the conversation. I didn't see anything wrong with what the other two editors said, looked like they just wanted to chat and it might have been quite innocent on their part. --Tony Sidaway 22:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Good call.

James F. (talk) 22:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Aaaannnd I deleted most of the history of Pn355's talk page, and left a comment saying not to talk about his sex life on Misplaced Pages. JDoorjam Talk 22:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I blocked both users indefintely and deleted the talk page that wasn't deleted. If this was not the right course, feel free to adjust the block time.--Kungfu Adam 22:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops, there are more than two involved. Well I blocked two of them--Kungfu Adam 22:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I subst'd {{indefblock}} on and protected the user and usertalk pages of all the involved (now indef blocked) users. El_C 23:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the previous revisions of User:JamieAdams, which contained (among other things) his email. Canderson7 23:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we please take a further step and remove those edits completely from the database? There is no reason why they need to remain I think. --HappyCamper 23:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that would be best. My issues with this (beyond the abuse of the Misplaced Pages servers) is that some or all of the participants might not be the teenagers they claim to be, and that some of the acts described are illegal (an adult having sex with a minor). Canderson7 23:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It would not be a misuse of Misplaced Pages's resources. I think some sort of "oversight" privileges were added recently? This place is an encyclopedia, and having that material still accessible (even only to administrators) is distracting, to say this euphemistically. These sorts of things do not happen on a regular basis, so it is not to say we are setting a precedent by cleaning up nicely. --HappyCamper 23:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry for the misunderstanding; I meant that the chat was an abuse of the servers, not your proposed solution. I do think however that we should be concerned with more than cleaning this up. Canderson7 23:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There are only a few hundred people on the face of the earth that can read what used to be there. I think it's a non-issue. --mboverload@ 23:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a bloody nudist networking site.... arrrrgggh.... --Lord Deskana 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(THREE edit conflicts later) HappyCamper -- Eh. Deleted is deleted enough; we should be abstemious in completely removing things. Let's not get too trigger-happy obliterating things, even in cases like this. If nothing else, it'd be good for admins to be able to see what was deleted if JamieAdams requests unblocking. JDoorjam Talk 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Please note that I am not User:JamieAdams, I am merely transferring his statements to this page in his defense, as he cannot due to an immediate and indefinite block. Adams wishes to make the following comments:

——"i am sorry for chatting because i knew i should not have done it but i got carried away and he would not fix his msn. i said i did not want to chat on wikipedia. also i did revert some vandalism today which was good. i do not know what else to say".—142.176.76.21 23:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if non-administrators are allowed to chip in; I just stumbled across this thread. If any of these parties are located in the U.S. (where Misplaced Pages is based), the Foundation may have a legal responsibility to report (but not necessarily investigate) this affair. Presumably the Misplaced Pages has legal counsel -- it may want to run this by that person. Also, in my own personal opinion, the kid needs help and the others, if adults, need watching by the authorities in their respective jurisdictions as potential predators. Inititiating that process should be something the U.S. authorities are (hopefully) equipped set in motion with their peers elsewhere once they receive a report.

I suggest you get the professionals involved, starting with the Foundation's lawyer and/or the US FBI.--A. B. 23:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that the FBI has jurisdiction- the IP is Canadian.--Kungfu Adam 23:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Ooops, no that is someone acting on the user's behalf.--Kungfu Adam 23:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to sound American-centric or to propose the FBI as the "world police". Regardless of where the user is, I suggested the Foundation officially contact the FBI since that is where the Foundation is. Even if the FBI doesn't have the lead on this investigation (for instance if the parties are all in other countries), they will still be asked by the other authorities to work with the Foundation on server logs, etc. on the other countries' behalf. Also, the FBI will know better who to contact for this sort of matter in other countries than Misplaced Pages would just calling the switchboard number for the police in Hong Kong (or New Zealand or wherever). These Internet sex-abuse investigations routinely involve a lot of international police cooperation. Having said all that, Canderson7's note for Jimbo is the next step in the off-wiki action.--A. B. 00:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there are off-wiki issues involved here, and I've left a note on Jimbo's talk page notifying him of this thread. Canderson7 23:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Good call.--A. B. 00:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

BradPatrick (Foundation's attorney) would probably be the better choice. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 00:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This thread is very active. For my own peace of mind, I'm going to contact one of those people with the oversight flag, and let them decide what would be appropriate to do. The issue isn't whether we have reduced the accessibility of those posts to a small fraction of the population. The issue is that we need to take responsibility for this as far as our technical abilities as volunteers on this project allow. This will become more important as this site becomes more publically visible. This is just one example where there needs to be some sense of resolved accountability. Once I've left a post on say, one of the 17 people with that flag, I'll be happy. --HappyCamper 23:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I also blocked User:JamieAdams_representative--Kungfu Adam 23:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...looks like other stuff is going on too: User:AdamFletcher, User:Sweetiepetie, and User:BrianHall are indefinitely blocked now. --HappyCamper 23:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoa --mboverload@ 00:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User:AdamFletcher and User:BrianHall certainly fit the profile, but User:Sweetiepetie doesn't seem to. How conclusive was the evidence? Canderson7 00:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It's solid. Same person. (I didn't run the check that caused the block, but I've checked.) Essjay (Talk • Connect) 00:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely do not understand the inclinations others have to get the authorities involved (assuming arguendo, of course, that there's no legal requirement that someone so act, of the absence of which requirement I'm certain); where individuals disrupt Misplaced Pages, we block them. Where they use Misplaced Pages for unencyclopedic purposes, as a webhost or a chatting service, for example, we block them. But once they are no longer involved in Misplaced Pages, we absolutely ought not to consider the extra-Wiki consequences of their on-Wiki dealings; just as we only contact schools or IPs in order that they should know about severe disruption coming from users to whom they provide Internet access, so too ought we only to contact law enforcement, for example, where we require intervention to prevent disruption of the encyclopedia (the relevant instances would be rather rare). We, for what it's worth, are an encyclopedia and are, or ought to be, concerned primarily about the content of the work of those who contribute. If we had a valuable contributor who had occasion to note, in passing, on a user talk page that he/she had recently murdered someone or was planning to murder someone (where such discourse neither is intended to disrupt nor actually disrupts and where collaboration is not significantly impaired), I can't imagine that we'd ever suggest that anything be done; we don't care, or oughtn't to care, about what people do off-Wiki. Now, where they use Misplaced Pages to facilitate unencyclopedic activities (whether child sex or fantasy baseball), we ought to direct users to WP:NOT and, if necessary, implement blocks, but only to prevent disruption of the project. I'm certain that Brad Patrick will conclude that we've no legal obligation to report, and we ought to stop our inquiry there. Joe 03:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

For myself, as a human being I sure hope someone would take notice if an editor seriously discussed murdering someone. I mean, come on, that's taking writing an encyclopedia a bit too seriously if it's more important than a human life. I agree that we shouldn't go about as a little vigilante squad, but counsel should check what the legal obligation is to report it, and do so. Mak (talk) 03:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"I'm certain that Brad Patrick will conclude that we've no legal obligation to report, and we ought to stop our inquiry there." That's his job; let him do it. He gets paid to protect the Foundation from liability; there is question here of whether this situation places the Foundation in a position of liability, and it's Brad's job to decide what to do to protect the Foundation. The solution to a question is not to assume you know the answer and hope it doesn't come back to bite the Foundation; the solution is to ask, which is exactly what we've done. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 17:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Someone might also want to take a look at removing these talk page entry by User:Pn355 on User:Ouijalover's page (which he deleted, but obviously remain in history). —Leflyman 00:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User:El_C is on it right now. Should be done in few minutes. --HappyCamper 00:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Done. Everything went by the book; users promptly blocked, pages protected, records externally purged, appropriate Wikimedia people notified. Aside: I took a glance at Special:Log/newusers, but only saw an appeal to the CIA director for a job. El_C 00:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful! This is what the Misplaced Pages community is all about. --HappyCamper 00:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh, can you spell BJAODN? Seriously, though I wouldn't be surprised if this is somebody's calculated way of trolling us into another moral panic. I agree though, delete the text, block the users, maybe even block the IP addresses if they are static, but I think the supposed moral benefit of reporting this crap to the authorities would be outweighed by (a) shortage of evidence, and (b) an avenue for further negative publicitity, media feeding frenzy, Jimbo on CNN again. Do we want that? — Jun. 10, '06 <freak|talk>

I agree with freakofnurture. I think this is a half-dozen kinds of over with. Believe it or not, this is not the first time inappropriate content has been posted on the internet. We've done our part; if the authorities come a-knockin', which they won't, wikilegal will take it from there. Let's get back to matters of importance, like wheel-warring over userboxes. JDoorjam Talk 00:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is that easy. I'm not entirely sure whether this is up to date or not, but we may have a legal obligation to report the incident. Either way, I think this is up to Brad Patrick and the juriwiki to decide now. Titoxd 00:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Good job, folks, good job. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

A member of another forum wants to VANDALIZE

I don't know how to report this, but a member of a forum I participate in has gone public asking about how to go about vandalizing wikipedia. The member posted the message in a private forum at DSL Reports Website, the the "stars Watercooler" and goes by the name "anubus". I thought I would give you guys a warning. Sorry to bother you. I asked the admins of the forum to lock his thread. They did. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Signmeuptoo (talk • contribs) .

I had an old signup for the DSL website, and logging in and tracking this down, the thread now reports as "This entire topic was removed, either temporarily, or permanently." by a moderator. - David Oberst 23:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Anubus was created on 20 March; no further activity. RadioKirk talk to me 00:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer

The AfD for this article resulted in a 'transfer' decision, however Turnstep decided to let the article stay as the author promised to expand it within a short period of time. Turnstep said he would delete the article upon request if no expansion had occurred after several weeks. The article is now at both Wikisource and Wikibooks but Turnstep appears to be inactive/on a wiki break and I am wondering if another admin would be kind enough to delete the article for me. Thanks. --Hetar 23:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. Jkelly 00:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

Regarding page: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

User 999 is making constant harrassing edits biased in fovor of HOGD Inc and trying to manipulate the article.

More importantly, re article: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Rosicrucian Order of A+O)

User 999 is revising the content making it non factual. It should be noted that a compromise was reached in developing the description of modern Golden Dawn groups by Misplaced Pages mediator T. Morton in which each group would maintain its own page in order to resolve political bias in description of groups.

User 999 is repeatedly and maliciously violating this rule and trying to give our order, the Rosicrucian Order of A+O a description which is inaccurate and politically motivated.

He is also reporting users for non-existing violations as part of his harassment campaign.

It would appear the 3RR reports are real.Geni 02:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User talk:24.207.210.139

IP has multiple vandalism notices on his page, from different editors. The most recent vandalism (23:48, 9 June 2006 24.207.210.139) is at Over_the_Hedge_(film)#Voice_cast:

Monica Lewinsky - Gladys Sharp

Please see user talk page above to see if cumultatively this IP might need to be blocked. I've placed a notice on that page notifying the user(s) of this action. Thanks -- Tenebrae 00:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverted, left a note re WP:CITE. RadioKirk talk to me 00:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Reposting of deleted Material

Elop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is blantantly ignoring rules of an AfD decision to delete Esplande Mall. He keeps reloading the material, here is the article log. Yanksox 02:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

difficulty with rascist administartor

Cyde (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log • logs) keeps threatening me about my religion, he's being unchristian i think, please consider blocking him--Colonbowgupwagon 03:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It's sort of hard for him to make comments about you when this is your first post. Yanksox 03:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cyde thinks that annoying people by acting like a rascist is too easy. He prefers a challenge =D --mboverload@ 03:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, since you know enough wikimarkup to does a user2, that means you're probably back for blood. No thanks. --mboverload@ 03:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It was actually a {{vandal}}, and he actually substed it too, which many real editors don't do. --Rory096 03:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's very hard to be racist against your religion, unless you're Hebrew.--Toffile 03:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If we're handing out blocks now for being "unchristian" I should be blocked indefinitely because I'm unchristian every hour of every day. (Even Christmas!) --Cyde↔Weys 03:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet you manage to cover it from every possible POV.--Toffile 03:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Rascist? If that's the opposite of irascible, I'll take it. JDoorjam Talk 03:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

AN:I troll? Anyone? --InShaneee 16:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Tony Sidaway again

It is with sadness, considering that he is an administrator who should know better than to knowingly and willingly violate WP:POINT and WP:VAND repeatedly by altering other users' otherwise compliant sigs ( , just to enumerate the most recent examples) and removing legitimate warnings from his talk page while characterizing them as tripe (), that I announce I will be blocking User:Tony Sidaway upon his next violation. No one involved in the project is above policy and everyone involved must be held accountable for his/her actions, regardless of "stature". My job as a janitor demands I make this sad notification. RadioKirk talk to me 03:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This is phrased very strangely. Have you read Misplaced Pages:Vandalism or Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy recently? It is pretty clear that you don't understand WP:POINT. Jkelly 03:39, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

With all respect, I believe I do. Thanks :) RadioKirk talk to me 03:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You genuinely believe that Tony Sidaway does not want signatures altered? Jkelly 03:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion... RadioKirk talk to me 06:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

There is already an RFC on this issue where TS would seem to have a great deal of support: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tony Sidaway 3. Why don't you participate there? I think any block would be incredibly misguided and would serve no purpose. Your job as a janitor is also not to inflame the situation, sadly or otherwise (although you seem more gleeful than sad)--JJay 03:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd seriously like to know how you got that impression... RadioKirk talk to me 03:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

See this edit. Ardric47 03:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a better place for this? How many previous threads have been brought here to no avail? --Cyde↔Weys 03:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This continues to be absurd. The RfC went nowhere because the vast majority of commentors were solidly behind this refactoring. P.s. Cyde is one of those upon whom Tony is said to have unjustly trampled.Timothy Usher 03:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Tony trampled me? When? --Cyde↔Weys 03:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends on whether you believe refactoring of your sig on this page constitutes "trampling". RadioKirk talk to me 03:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel trampled on. It's a wiki, I expect stuff to be edited. He's not even changing the content of any of the messages, just rearranging the format of the sig. I could care less. My signature is absolutely frivolous – I change it more than once a month. As long as the link goes back to my userpage identifying me it's all golden. --Cyde↔Weys 05:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's an admirable stance. Given that, by nature, personalization on Wiki is kept to a minimum, however, it's absolutely understandable that users would find it a violation when that "personality"—especially when it complies with policy—is altered, without prior notice, query or comment. While it may not violate the letter of WP:VAND, I remain convinced that it violates the spirit thereof. RadioKirk talk to me 06:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

So long as content has been preserved, and everything remained working as well as it did before (arguably, better), than 'violating the spirit of of WP:VAND' sounds like it's stretching the point. Especially if the changes are consistent in being nonpersonal in nature. You may be confusing it with WP:POINT here. El_C 06:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I knew what I meant, but thanks. The letter of Changing people's comments is, "(e)diting signed comments by another user to substantially change their meaning"—I maintain that the spirit thereof should extend to "substantially change their appearance". Call this subjective interpretation, but that's my view (and WP:POINT was a given ). Anyway, I'm off for the night. RadioKirk talk to me 06:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks, but I also knew what I meant when I mentioned that you may be confusing the two policies. ;) The sig isn't part of the comment; and it is the sig originally assigned by Misplaced Pages (utility-wise). El_C 07:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. Signatures are not comments and vice-versa. A comment tells you the opinion of the person writing it. A signature tells you who wrote the comment. That's all there is to it. Whether or not you have a point, purposely conflating two things isn't helping. A comment is just as useful as long as we can tell who wrote it. A de-formatised signature might be slightly less helpful (as typified by when links to user talk pages are removed), but often it usually we are better off with de-formatised sigs. Johnleemk | Talk 11:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

With all respect, signatures are comments; "this is how I want to be seen" is every bit a part of the editor (though it should be a very tiny part) as the words (s)he types. We ought not be showing editors how to customize their sigs—or, for that matter, including the option in preferences in the first place—if we want to stop the practice. Even then, the policy must be changed. Noncompliant sig? Kill it! However, simply forcing one's will onto someone else's compliant signature with no prior comment or query demonstrates a willingness to change whatever, whenever, by no more reasoning than preference—an arrogance that no one on Misplaced Pages should have, lest it betray self-importance over project importance. RadioKirk talk to me 17:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we'll soon reach a point where every AN/I archive will have a "Tony Sidaway" thread ;-) Kirill Lokshin 03:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I propose the following changes to the AN/I header: User:JDoorjam/Proposed_ANI_template. Please let me know what you think. JDoorjam Talk 04:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

blocked