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Loomspicker again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• I moved this from AN. Pass a Method talk 01:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I've raised this issue here before, but the user in question oh-so-conveniently went inactive for a few days while the thread was open. To sum up, User:Loomspicker is a single-purpose account devoted to pretending Islamophobia doesn't exist by scrubbing the word from Misplaced Pages, and in the service of this crusade, has engaged in a number of prohibited behaviors. In addition to the evidence detailed here, which includes the introduction of factual inaccuracy, blanking sourced material, and adding scare quotes, he has more recently continued to misrepresent sources ( ), remove sourced material (), delink pages in an apparent attempt to orphan them so they can be deleted ( ), and otherwise edit in a disruptive and POV manner. Please deal with this even if the user goes inactive in order to avoid scrutiny. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Should I take this to ANI instead? Either way, I don't want this to be archived without being addressed simply because the user stopped editing right when the thread opened. That's what happened last time, and obviously he simply resumed the disruptive behavior as soon as it seemed like no one was looking anymore. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

More of an ANI thing IMO, but since it's here, I'll reply here. (Nowadays apparently you're supposed to use some accursed template to move a thread to ANI, and I can't away with it.) It would be easier to take stock of the situation if you provided a link to where you raised the issue before, Roscelese. If they repeatedly go inactive when they're under scrutiny, and not at other times, then that's significant, but I'd like to see for myself. Bishonen | talk 15:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC).

...It's already linked in my first post? But here is the link again. link –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

By the way, yes, this sort of thing should be over at WP:ANI, since it's an "incident", so to speak, regarding another user. As far as I (non-admin) know, WP:AN is more for general announcements and requests, while WP:ANI deals more with user behavior. Ansh666 03:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support block or topic ban rom Islam for Loomspicker. I have been going through this editors contributions and he is clearly anti-Muslim, goes around articles related to Muslims and puts derogotary information about them as well as other unsavoury edits. Pass a Method talk 15:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I share Roscelese's and Pass a Method's concerns, which I also had after seeing this edit which removed five sources. The fact that these same types of edits are occurring across multiple articles is troubling. I'm not sure if a block is required, but a topic ban should definitely be put on the table for discussion.- MrX 19:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

That edit was about what should be included in the article, not necessarily vandalism. Our talk page discussion on the issue clearly shows that. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I never said it was vandalism, only that it seems to be part of a pattern of erasing the concept of Islamaphobia from Misplaced Pages by Loomspicker. - MrX 00:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• Very weak support based on review of edits over the past few days. Some seem to be done with the agenda of removing any sense of "racism" from Islamophobia pages and to cast Islam in a bad light. But based on the evidence presented by Roscelese, the user does seem to have an agenda and is barely here to build an encyclopedia. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't think Loomspicker was explicitly notified of this discussion on their talk page, so I have done so. I would like to hear from them before deciding whether or not to support a topic ban. - MrX 01:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• Note: I've reverted Pass a Method's close of this discussion, as an involved user. The complaint is not withdrawn. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban?

I propose a topic ban for Loomspicker from all Islam-related articles.Pass a Method talk 22:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support; user's bias is preventing him from editing productively, on balance. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I understand the concern of this user having an agenda, and a topic ban is not an extreme solution. One thing I'd want to hear from the user before making a call either way is what their assessment of Misplaced Pages's relevant rules and norms regarding his/her editing are. Has the user commented anywhere on the accusation that s/he is advocating with a specific agenda in mind (that is, as opposed to building an encyclopedia)? It is possible to have opinionated editors still make valuable edits to issues they care about—as long as they understand how Misplaced Pages is supposed to be edited. --Jprg1966  00:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

*This user seems to only vandalize articles about Islamophobia and makes no constructive edits, so it would seem that a general block would be better than a topic ban if this user continues to engage in this sort of behavior.--MoonMetropolis (talk) 11:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)(strike as sockpuppet edit) Dougweller (talk) 19:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support - After considerable thought I've reached the conclusion that topic banning this user as proposed would be best for the project. The most convincing reasons are that almost all of Loomspicker's article edits seem be oriented around casting Muslims in a negative light (), removing sources and sourced content for specious reasons (), and especially removing the words Islamophobic and Islamophobia from many articles (). Loomspicker claims that blogs shouldn't be used as sources but then does exactly that when it suits his POV. He even downgraded two project classes for the Islamophobia article. Policies and guidelines that are violated in these diffs: WP:POV, WP:LR, WP:NOTSCANDAL, WP:NEWSBLOG, and WP:TEND. It is evident that Loomspicker's purpose here is not to build an encyclopedia collaboratively, but rather is to single-handedly alter Islam-related articles to his particular POV, even if it means damaging the articles. - MrX 14:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for reviewing my edits, but you've not shown anything wrong with them, only that they are focused on a particular topic. This site is WP:NOTCENSORED, disagreeing with something doesn't make it 'disruptive'. You have not shown any damage I have done to articles, beyond the odd minor mistake. The blog source I removed from was from a small Dissent (magazine), the one I added is a blog of nationally circulated newspaper. The content was also completely different, the source I added referred to gave a primary sources of its information, whilst the one I removed was an opinion of protest group. Clearly completely different cases. I also downgraded the Islamophobia article, as it is clearly not B class "article is mostly complete and without major problem". It is very unstable, often undergoing major edits and reorganisation. I stand by all my edits, and believe they are all done inline with appropriate policies. I welcome you to provide me invidivual edits that show otherwise.--Loomspicker (talk) 18:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
• I can also say my most significant edits have both been given support from other users, here and here.--Loomspicker (talk) 18:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support. As MrX has amply demonstrated above, Loomspicker is a single-purpose account with an objective incompatible with those of Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support I've been concerned about this editor for some time and MrX's hard work adds sufficient evidence to merit a topic ban. Dougweller (talk) 15:53, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban including any form of the word "Islamophobia" in any article. Loomspicker is not here to build the encyclopedia. Rather, the user insists (against a great deal of scholarship) that the word "Islamophobia" cannot be applied to anyone or anything because it is an irrational label. This editor's constant edit warring at Islamophobic incidents is an outstanding example of NOTHERE. Also, these two edits together show the attempt to shut down the word Islamophobia on Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• You seem to have misread that, it says Islamophobic people are irrational, as it says in the main article.--Loomspicker (talk) 18:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose seems like an attempt to bar an opponent from editing certain articles. The user concerned has ZERO blocks in his/her blocklog, unlike his/her opponents. So the question, which side is being disruptive here, needs to be treated seriously first. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Estlandia, what have I ever been blocked for? I agree that MoonMetropolis has now been blocked as a sock. MrX has 33000 edits and a clean block record. Jprg1966 has over 16,000 edits and a clean block record. Binkersternet has had a clean block record for 2 years and at 103,000 edits almost as many as me. Rosclese has also been blocked in the past as has Andy. But everyone here has vastly more edits than Loomspicker's 381 edits - he hasn't had a fraction of the chances to be blocked. And of course you've been blocked in the past, but not for a long time. And yes, it's an attempt to bar an editor from editing certain articles - that's what a topic ban does. Dougweller (talk) 19:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Loomspicker

Of the edits linked above, the material was removed as the sources did not back up the claims, in accordance with WP:BURDEN. And they still haven't been provided. Which policies do my edits not comply with? "Pass a Method" and "Roscelese" respond to my edits with reverts, reports and attacks, instead of wishing to discuss the content itself. For example, Pass reverted my edit on this page which has an on-going discussion, yet doesn't contribute to the discussion. Roscelese reverted me three times on this article yet ignores the message I left on their talk page. I did think maybe it was my approach was wrong, but the block logs suggest this is how they normally respond to edits they disagree with. I did ask for sources or a compromise, but I don't hold out much hope of getting either.--Loomspicker (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Needless to say, this claim - that removing sourced material, adding claims that are verifiably false, otherwise misrepresenting sources, adding scare-quotes, etc. is simply removing unsourced material - is unconvincing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Odd infobox edits by User:Therequiembellishere

I had rather hoped this would not all reach this stage, but I'm at the point where I don't think this can continue without the scrutiny of other editors. A year ago, I noticed User:Therequiembellishere had removed an office order from an American politician's infobox. In the grand scheme of things, nothing important. However, he yielded no explanation when asked, and I then began to notice a talk page, littered with years of complaints against infobox edits that go against established consensus, including the removal of office orders. When no response was forthcoming, I said his edits were against consensus, and that I would put back in orders when I saw they had been removed. Unfortunately, this has now devolved into months of repairing the changes, and despite numerous entreaties that we just simply talk (dated 31 December, 24 March, 29 September), I have never received a word of response. Finally, after seeing another warning left on his talk page by another user about his infobox edits in general, I left one more request. However, the fact he edited thereafter, but more importantly my fear that higher scrutiny is unavoidable at this stage, I have decided to raise this now.

My concern is thus; infobox edits are not the most glamorous topic, but I have become increasingly convinced that, for whatever reason, Therequiembellishere has engaged in a years-long campaign to reformat infoboxes to his own desired format, even when such format goes against established consensus. My own specific concern is over his strange fixation with removing office orders, but from what others users have said on his talk page, he seems to like removing all sorts of other things, though I declare myself no particular expert witness on that aspect - his edits are mostly labelled as 'Formatting infobox/succession boxes'.

To be frank, one way or another, I would like this to end. I didn't join Misplaced Pages to police other editors. To be honest, I don't mind if I end up getting judged to be wrong - though I don't think I am - but whatever else, I think some community judgement on the validity of Therequiembellishere's edits is long overdue. Redverton (talk) 03:27, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Could you provide some diffs of the contentious edits and maybe some link to where consensus was established? I do agree that the lack of communication is an issue. John Reaves 17:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any centralised discussion where consensus was reached. On the matter of office orders, my awareness of a consensus has come through localised discussions I've seen, and through being told by other editors that such a consensus existed. I know that hardly sounds definitive, but more pertinently we do have a standardised infobox format, such as the example at Template:Infobox officeholder. There, we can see the standard format includes an order field, as well as other filled-in fields that Therequiembellishere has removed over countless articles, examples of which I provide at the end. At first, I thought of this as a content dispute. Indeed, in my entreaty of 29 September, I suggested we hold an RFC (again, no response). However, I began to see his edits as, to be frank, disruptive, when I concluded that years of infobox edits against the standard format and - as you noted - doing the silent treatment when often questioned about the changes by other editors, meant this evolved from a content dispute to something much more disruptive. Whilst I still welcome an RFC or some kind of a centralised discussion - whether over office orders or infobox formats in general - I think his editing behaviour has become an entirely separate discussion.

I've picked some of his most recent edits. They show him removing the 'order' field, and removing the order itself. I've also tried to pick edits that highlight some of the other concerns editors have raised, such as when he removes filled-in fields like professions and places of residence. To be honest, these are not some of his most pronounced changes - whenever an editor like me questions him about his edits, he noticeably scales down the kind of changes he makes (even without responding to those queries), but then seems to pick up again after a short while after the attention has passed. When I intervene over his office orders removals, he does let them stay in for awhile, but then inevitably goes back to trying again. , . Redverton (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

If I may opinion, I think all that's needed atm is a community warning that he edit infoboxes according to the standard format. If he wants the standard format to change, he should pursue consensus before editing so. If, however, he does persist in editing without seeking a change beforehand to the standard format, some kind of topic ban on editing infoboxes might have to be considered, but hopefully it won't reach that stage. Redverton (talk) 11:50, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh to clarify, since Therequiem hasn't yet responded here, I did leave a note on his talk page the day I started this up. Redverton (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Long term vandalism from a user with a dynamic IP address

Please could people experienced in dealing with long-term vandalism from users with a dynamic IP address please assist at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Why isn't IP 86.158.105.73 blocked yet?.

The same user has been inserting various nonsense into articles about UK railways for months now - the thread in question goes back to August and the title indicates that it has been going on longer than that. They've used over two dozen IP addresses, almost all from BT (UK's largest ISP), rarely staying on the same one for more than a week.

Short of semi-protecting every article about UK train operating companies, rolling stock and stations (thousands of articles) or catching hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders with range blocks, is there anything that we can do to stop simply firefighting? Thryduulf (talk) 10:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Since you have exhausted all the normal measures, I suggest the use of stronger medicine. We can certainly achieve the equivalent of semi-protecting articles on all those subjects, but in a way that applies to BT broadband customers only, using the edit filter. This would not inconvenience BT broadband IP editors editing non-British-transport articles, nor would it affect IP editors from any other ISP editing any kind of article. Even BT customers editing British transport-related articles would only be inconvenienced to the extent of having to create an account to be able to edit those articles. This would not be hard -- we've done it before for, for example, an editor from Croatia that used addresses that spanned over several of that country's large ISPs that persisted in making curious edits to Nazi-related topics. After a couple of months, they went away, and the filter was removed without them coming back. If you give me some keywords that identify the topics in question, I will happily create the filter. -- The Anome (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a filter already (545), but it's mostly logging false positives, and it's unlikely that many users in Croatia will be editing pages in English about Nazi-related topics, but UK-based users are likely to edit UK-related topics. Peter James (talk) 19:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a description of a possible edit filter at User talk:Master of Puppets#Your block of 86.154.165.236. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The edit filter I created has, since being refined a bit, caught mostly-related edits. I've been slowly tuning it as we see what it finds as false-positive (which, admittedly, was a lot at the beginning) - if you look at the newest page of the log, it's been catching almost exclusively relevant edits. m.o.p 01:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The most recent I can see are 86.155.193.248 and 86.170.48.51, both probably unrelated. Edits to articles in some categories, such as railway stations have been 100% false positives. Peter James (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Neither of those is our man, who (so far) has ignored non-British topics and heritage railways. The primary "tell" is that he adds unsourced information about a future transfer of rolling stock to or from South West Trains, but does so on a variety of pages, always related to British railways. He also goes for London buses, but I've not yet worked out a "tell" for those; the only link is that the same IP address is used within the same hour. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The filter can only go so far - I can only narrow down which pages are being affected and possibly tag them in the edit history, but I can't include anything that specific in the regex. m.o.p 20:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hiding RfC talk comments, deleting WP:CONSENSUS summaries and WP:TAGTEAM

This is the second ANI I've had to bring due to User:SchroCat editing or altering other people's comments and this is the second ANI regarding WP:TAGTEAM involving SchroCat. That ANI started by User:Light show is here. The first ANI where every administrator admonished ShroCat for interjecting his comments in other people's edits is here.

There's an RfC at Talk:Peter Sellers regarding specific use of the word "Jewish" to describe a character in some commercials he played (RfC here). After a week of very grueling and confusing debate with multiple opinions as to exact content, I created a straight forward non-partial "Survey summary". If I in good faith misrepresented anyone's opinion in any way, I would be happy to, and in a couple of cases did, correct that.

Apparently unhappy with the survey results (a vast majority of editors are not agreeing with him), ShroCat is now attempting to hide this survey and all the other editors' subsequent comments. . User:Dr. Blofeld, one of the few editors steadfastly resisting any altering of the wording to the article, in an apparent effort to circumvent WP:3RR using WP:TAGTEAM now has reverted my restoration of my comments.

ShroCat has been blocked for edit warring earlier this year and this behavior is continuing. There's multiple other examples of consistent WP:NPA, WP:HOUND and WP:OWN behavior which is another ANI in itself. Can something please be done about his editor? --Oakshade (talk) 18:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is your troll like behaviour on the Peter Sellers talk page and false edit summaries such as this which falsly claim Schrod to be removing editor's comments. And it takes two to edit war, so bringing up Schrod's past history as if he's some serial edt warrer is just silly. I doubt you'll get much support coming here. Why don't you just walk away and start doing something useful?♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld—here you are calling me a "troll". Is that sort of language necessary or constructive? (Above you are referring to Oakshade's "troll like behavior") Bus stop (talk) 05:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, I'd say that trying to stop tendentious editing, attempted bullying, and the forceful insertion of utter bollocks counts as something useful. As opposed to, say, calling people trolls and demanding that they leave off of productive editing, perhaps. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 06:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. Three rights make a left, of course. Doc talk 06:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Just want to highlight Dr. Blofeld's last comment there as an example of this team's approach to those who disagree with them. When I brought up concern for the term "Jewish," this was the kind of response I got. Now with wider community RfC input, it's clear this was a valid concern. Saying "walk away and start doing something useful" is no help to your cause. Constructive discussion as must of us have been doing from the beginning would help your and ShroCat's case much better.--Oakshade (talk) 19:47, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

How tiresome, yet another misleading set of half facts from Oakshade.

1. "editing or altering other people's comments": hatting inappropriate comments is not editing or altering anything. As at least one other has pointed out, it is not advisable for an involved editor to try and summarise an RfC – especially if you are the one who has started it, and especially if you do such a bad job of it that you end up aggravating others by providing a misleading situation.

2. "second ANI regarding WP:TAGTEAM": no, Light show did not accuse me of tag-teaming, and the term (or any related accusation) does not appear in that ANI. (In passing, that ANI turned more boomerang on Light show than anything else)

3. "I created a straight forward non-partial "Survey summary"." No, it was not "non-partial" (whatever that means). It was one-sided and misleading and misrepresented the opinions of at least four other editors

4. "If I in good faith misrepresented anyone's opinion in any way": you did, and there are still misrepresentations in your "summary" which you have failed to correct. I raised these in the thread and you have not done anything about them. I struggle to keep hold of my good faith, considering the circumstances

5. "Apparently unhappy with the survey results": actually, given the selection of different replacements, more people want the current version than any of the other versions

6. "ShroCat is now attempting to hide this survey": as per my point 1 above, hatting is appropriate: the comments are still there and can be seen, if required.

7. "an apparent effort to circumvent WP:3RR using WP:TAGTEAM": Oakshade should try and learn that having people disagree with him is not tag teaming, it's people disagreeing with him.

8. "ShroCat has been blocked for edit warring earlier this year": temporarily and was lifted quickly when the admin realised I had reverted because it was a BLP breach.

9. "this behavior is continuing": Are you trying to drag me through ANI for Tag teaming or edit warring? Both are wrong, whichever the choice

10. "WP:NPA, WP:HOUND and WP:OWN behavior": More unfounded and ridiculous mud-slinging - I refute it all utterly.

- SchroCat (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll just respond to the most obvious and confirm-able non-truth above. Only 4 out of 15 16 editors so far want the current version. ShroCat is one of those 4 editors. --Oakshade (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Before I revert to base Anglo-Saxon because of another of your turgid little smears, there is no "non-truth" here. You have lied in your accusation. You have lied in your "summary" of opinions and now you smear by lying again: there is no non-truth: there is a different way to looking at the opinions of the other editors and you are looking at it differently to me: it is not a non-truth, so stop with the loaded language. - SchroCat (talk) 20:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's the truth. You're way out WP:CONSENSUS. You don't have to like consensus, but you always have to respect it. Claims of "turgid little smears" with absolutely nothing to back up such claims isn't going to help you build a consensus your way. --Oakshade (talk) 19:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

No, your statement contained a number of lies: they were outlined below. Can I suggest you deal with the points below, about Tag teaming being an essay and neither guideline or policy, and the opinion of some that an involved editor summarising their own RfC is a bad thing? We may be able to move on to more constructive things sooner if you could. - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

You've still never explained what exactly currently are the "lies" in the summery. But it's likely going to stay hatted so it's pointless to argue about it. I'm aware WP:TAGTEAM is an essay but it's an effective essay demonstrating the circumvention of WP:CONSENSUS as you and two other editors have done like as pointed out below your out-of-consensus removing of infoboxes from the Peter Sellers and a couple of other articles. --Oakshade (talk) 19:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are not really making sense now, or are at least clutching at straw here. I am not circumventing any consensus whatsoever, so stop throwing around the accusations please. You may have a beef about me, but try and keep it real, could you? Are there any more things you want to raise, or can we all drop the dramah and get back to doing what we were doing before? - SchroCat (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Wow. A summary midstream of an RfC, that's not unheard of. Nor is hatting such a section, if only for convenience sake. And then you all have a survey over whether or not to hat the comments and what the survey is saying? Drmies (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Hatting is in effect hiding it. The discussion has so many different proposals for alternate wording with so many different editors preferring so many different alternates (with only a small percentage preferring the current version), there had to be some kind of summarizing so editors can at least gauge all the different options. Now SchroCat is hiding this from editors. --Oakshade (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

People can read the thread, which contains reference to the sources and counter arguments. You decided to allot opinions to people who had not expressed such an opinion: that is abysmally poor practice. You are too involved to provide a neutral summary, especially when there are so many different parties going for so many different options, with more people wanting the status quo than any other. The thread is still there, and accusing an editor of deleting comments in your summary really takes the cake! - SchroCat (talk) 19:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Bullshit, Oakshade. "In effect hiding it"--whatever. You're not being oppressed here. Drmies (talk) 21:04, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I've always felt hats are neon pointers to "the good stuff is in here." NE Ent 21:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Drmies likes this.
• Uhm, a quick comment - in my purely professional capacity, of course - NE Ent? That comment is full of win.  :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 03:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks at Oakshade's contributions to wikipedia in recent months, I don't think this is the sort of troll we want on wikipedia. It's disruptive, and he's continuing to waste time with this here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who disagrees with this tag team is called a "troll." I've been editing here since 2006 and have created some major articles and never has anyone thrown such attacks at me until I dared to disagree with editors of this article a couple of weeks ago. This is their M.O.. --Oakshade (talk) 19:47, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• At the moment, the only problematic behaviour I see in this thread is two edtors calling Oakshade a "troll" and a "liar". THis is an editor who has been here a long time - longer than me - and whilst I have often disagreed with him, especially at AfD, I have never seen any evidence of such behaviour. And none has been presented here, either. Black Kite (talk) 20:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• As per my comments above: "second ANI regarding WP:TAGTEAM": untrue. " I created a straight forward non-partial": untrue. "this behavior is continuing": untrue. " consistent WP:NPA, WP:HOUND and WP:OWN behavior": untrue. And that's just in this thread. I'll happily outline the ones in the RfC, if you'd like? I do not consider pointing out such untruths as "problematic". I am not sure what the length of someone's history has to do with anything, tbh: if we're playing that game, Blofeld has been here longer than Oakshade - and that means absolutely nothing too! - SchroCat (talk) 20:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• An untruth does not liar make; "lie" implies intention to deceive, so, unless you can provide evidence an editor is being intentionally duplicitous it's best not to call them a liar. NE Ent 21:56, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Very true, NE Ent, but when I see someone summarise a thread and misrepresent the opinions of others, and then file at ANI with a series of "untruths" all strung together, I'm afraid my AGF facility takes too much of a battering to think anything else! - SchroCat (talk) 22:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• What's the misrepresentation? Where exactly are you claiming I'm intentionally deceiving anyone? As I've said, if you point out exactly, I will happilly correct it (as I've done twice, btw ).--Oakshade (talk) 22:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• And yet, despite having to twice alter it after some very basic misrepresentation was found, it's STILL misleading. I've already pointed out in the talk thread where it is misleading and you still haven't corrected it. Even if you correct now, for a third time, it is rather self-evident that for such an involved editor to try and summarise something using your opinions was a mistake. If you had simply tried to report the situation it may (and only just may) have been acceptable, but you tried to interpret the opinions of others - and you've made something of a mess. "Non-neutral" is the nicest way that your efforts can be described. - SchroCat (talk) 23:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've read what you wrote in the talk thread and I don't see what you're talking about that's "misleading." For the sake of everyone here, can you please explain what exactly is currently "misleading" about the summery?--Oakshade (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

It's unclear to me what purpose the summary is intended to provide; I'd expect both participants and the eventual RFC closer to read the entire discussion in its entirety. NE Ent 00:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There were so many proposals for the re-wording of the content by multiple editors and so many preferences for those proposals from so many editors, as well as those who wanted no re-write or elimination of the section as a whole, and with the thread meandering on for what seemed like forever, there needed to be a place that had some sort of easy references to those who came onto the RfC so they can get an understanding of even what was being debated. That's all the purpose was and I think it was a good purpose.--Oakshade (talk) 00:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

@Blackkite and Oakshade, what percentage of Oakshade's contributions in the last three months have gone into constructive mainspace editing? DO you really consider him a constructive editor Blackkite? The fact is you're not a productive editor, I've looked at your contributions since August on here and your continued posting on the Sellers talk page and here is wasting a lot of time for everybody involved. The way you and Light show obsessively keep posting on the Sellers page pushing either infoboxes or trivial article "issues" for weeks on end while contributing bugger all to the encyclopedia. It's destructive behaviour and a drain on good editors here who really should not have to be dealing with this and be editing themselves. I suggest you take a break from here for a bit and come back when you're willing to improve the encyclopedia and edit something else.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Ernst, Black Kite is a hardworking admin, but do you really want them to dig through those edits to find evidence for your position? This is the third time this week, I think, that I have to point out the usefulness of RfC/U. Your interest here should be to disprove the allegations; throwing mud right back at the plaintiff is rarely useful. Think tactics, evil one. Drmies (talk) 21:10, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
• Besides multiple improvements to multiple articles, in the last three months alone I've created the articles Brian Kelley (intelligence), Sanja Bizjak, Daniela Knapp, The Disaster Artist and Christine Schorn. If you feel such activity is "unconstructive," you can start a formal investigation. This smear/attack-anyone-who-disagrees WP:NOTTHEM defense is just what we're dealing with with these editors and this is prime example. I have certainly disagreed with Blackkite over the years but never have I doubted his sincerity nor his ability to constructively work with other editors. I recommend you begin that approach with editors you don't see eye to eye with.--Oakshade (talk) 23:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

In fairness you have made some additions pre October but in the last few weeks or so you've been worryingly focused on Talk:Peter Sellers haven't you? Why not continue to create articles and ignore it?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:39, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the hat itself as worth arguing about, but editors should sign them per the instructions at {{hat}} (and WP:TPG) NE Ent 21:58, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Yep, my bad - thanks for adding it. - SchroCat (talk) 22:44, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Titling the hatting in bold "misleading and one-sided" and "twisting to your own opinion" as SchroCat has done is most certainly worth arguing about. Instead of taking my word for it, everyone is certainly invited to look at the summary and decide if there is anything "misleading" or has the intention of anything but a convenient summary to a very long and arduous debate. --Oakshade (talk) 23:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Ah OK. So, all this boils down to someone having mistitled something. And you started an ANI thread over that. Thanks for reminding us why these are called dramah boards. Moving right along--the Peyton Manning show is on. Drmies (talk) 23:37, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• It was started over the tag teaming in order to circumvent WP:CONSENSUS. That opinion stands. But I did have to point out that relatively less-major issue of SchroCat's inappropriate title. Believe me, there are many other issues of WP:CIVIL and other violations, some of which has been demonstrated on this board, but there's only so much that can be covered in a single ANI. --Oakshade (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• There was no breach of an essay, and you've provided no evidence of it anyway. I have struck the elements of that hat's title that are inappropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 22:29, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Other editors may wish to have a look at the discussion. I can not BELIEVE what absolute bollocks is being passed off as reasoning there. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 23:42, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment One of the very few things I agreed with Jack Merridew about is the pitched-battle mentality of the "key authors" of this article resisting the inclusion of an infobox at all costs. There is an extremely limited consensus to exclude the infobox, and it's tiresome and frustrating to argue with those that control every nuance of the article. So please don't kill the messenger. Doc talk 02:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Agreed on that...I wonder if they even realise how amateurish the article looks without one? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Not giving an opinion on this situation, but on a narrow note, WP:TAGTEAM is not a policy or even a guideline, it is an essay, and rightly so, especially considering how often it gets misued mis-invoked. North8000 (talk) 11:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Since doing !vote summaries in the middle of an RFC or RM discussion is considered a bad, bad thing ... and is usually an attempt to skew the continued !votes (remember, it's the POLICY-BASED discussion that counts, not the COUNT) ... hatting such an egregious attempt to change the course of the RFC was an absolute necessity. So, I'd say that WP:BRD kicks in, but no ... in this case, we stop at Bold - hat it, and move on, don't even dream of reverting the hat because whoever hatted it stopped you from being considered disruptive ES&L 11:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

COI editing at Naveen Jain yet again

• Naveen Jain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• 173.160.176.110 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 173.160.176.111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 70.103.74.91 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Oct'13 COIN Report

This article has a long history of editors attempting to whitewash the article against a conflict of interest (COIN January 2008). In the past, most of the problems have been managed with partial protection of the article. After the latest potential IPO of Jain's company Intelius was pulled, the article settled down and protection was removed.

173.160.176.110/111 are new WP:SPA ips registered to "NAVEEN JAIN NAVEENJAIN". The ip's have repeatedly violated WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, and WP:COI with their editing, and have attacked other editors.

70.103.74.91 is an Intelius ip. Similar problems from this ip, though the editor is more civil.

70.103.74.91 and 173.160.176.111 have continued after the COIN report.

I can provide diffs if necessary, but given the article history, the blatant coi's, and the short editing histories, I hope we can get through this quickly. Minimally, I'd like to see 173.160.176.111 blocked. --Ronz (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

• Ronz, what are the odds that I come across this languishing thread, and I'm the one who semi-protected the article last year. I just did the same, and will have a look at the rest of the bizniz. Drmies (talk) 03:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• I'd block the 173 IP(s)--that last edit of theirs is pretty clearly evidence of COI editing and BLP violating--but I see little point after I semi-protected the article. Please do drop me/us a line if their behavior elsewhere becomes disruptive. Drmies (talk) 04:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks and will do! --Ronz (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Sopher99

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user had been notorious for his edit-warrings and other bad behaviour in articles related to the Syrian civil war, but I think this time he had gone too far. He had deleted with no reason other user section on the talk page of the Battle of Aleppo detailed map, as can be seen here.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

It looks like Sopher99 believes the IP editor he reverted is notorious sockmaster User:Deonis 2012; I don't know what evidence he has for that belief. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Right. The blind are reporting the blind: neither of them follow any kind of proper procedure. If Sopher thinks HCPUNXKID is a sock, they should file an SPI (strikes me as very unlikely, since KID started three years before Deonis did, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I hear). HCPUNXKID, in turn, has no business reporting to ANI after one single revert. And we're done, Drmies (talk) 01:43, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems that you had not understanded most of it, Sopher99 believes that the IP user who added the section is a sockmaster, not me. Better read things carefully before stating anything about it, dont you think so?.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, pal--I only do English grammar to connect English words. What are you doing at ANI? Sopher removed a comment thinking it was a sock, it was restored. Anything here requiring admin intervention? Or do you want an admin to go to Sopher's talk page and say WRONG WRONG WRONG? You can do that yourself, and all you have to do is copy and paste. Drmies (talk) 20:52, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Suburban Express

Hello. I would like to bring before a group of uninvolved admins a significant edit that recently occurred on the Suburban Express page. But first, I find it appropriate to give you the backdrop of this situation.

Over a 3 month period, CorporateM has been helping monitor and mediate edits to the page via the Suburban Express Talk page. Involved in the discussion have been numerous COIs, including myself, the owner of the company, and many other paid editors (the reward board, Biosthmors, and SirCharlesofDriftwood). Due to outing editors (here and here), the owner of Suburban Express Arri_at_Suburban_Express was blocked.

Once blocked, the owner of Suburban Express continued posting private information about WP editors on the Suburban Express website (web address not shown since they contain names) as seen here for AlmostGrad and here for Gulugawa, and here for NegatedVoid. He also posted about a Wikimedia admin here.

As you all can see, there has been quite a bit of controversy, which leads me to my main concern. As described above, the article has been monitored and mediated by CorporateM. He has worked tirelessly and was even recognized for his work here. As things have progressed, SlimVirgin has taken the stance that s/he believes no COIs should discuss or edit the main Suburban Express page or its Talk page as seen in this example and again in this example. Prior to both comments directed at AlmostGrad, s/he solicited Suburban Express for feedback. When AlmostGrad inquired as to why this was fair, SlimVirgin ignored the comment.

This leads up to the most serious edit. On November 9th, this major edit was done marked as a copy-edit. This edit was done without any prior discussion, negating over 3 months of edits under the supervision of CorporateM. Once these edits were completed, many admins displayed their disagreements with the shift in POV, even if subtly like in this response. Other editors were more bold in their response here and also here referring to "whitewashing". One editor, N2e suggested that SlimVirgin was making a WP:BOLD edit. However, as another IP pointed out in this edit, you need to be WP:CAREFUL. Some would argue that copy-edits do not fall under this category, however; SlimVirgin’s edit was far from a “simple copyedit” as the rule describes. In essence, SlimVirgin has whitewashed the criticism, for which 45 largely-reliable secondary sources exist, while adding self-published primary sources and interviews to promote the subject.

Once these edits were completed, AlmostGrad attempted to give examples of notable facts that should be addressed here. To these suggestions, SlimVirgin was again silent. Furthermore, SlimVirgin used admin privileges to dig out non visible (and irrelevant) material. This received a response from AlmostGrad to which I agree.

In closing, the article should be reverted back, pre-SlimVirgin’s “copyedit” here since it reflects vigorous conversation and mediation. I would also like to request that SlimVirgin refrain from asking others to not engage in discussion about the topic on talk pages, since those are intended to reach a consensus (which was not reached for SlimVirgin’s latest copyedit). 24.15.78.1 (talk) 04:53, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

On User_talk:Arri_at_Suburban_Express, I saw the following comment:

I've placed this discussion  On hold per private discussion. LFaraone 19:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Does this mean we should wait for the "private discussion" to end right now, or get started with the ANI talk? 135.0.167.2 (talk) 05:53, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

My reason for posting here is not due to the unblock request on that talk page, but rather a substantial un-discussed edit on the Suburban Express and requests by SlimVirgin for editors to stop editing.24.15.78.1 (talk) 06:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I see. That edit was quite a problem, especially combined with the discouragement of discussion considering its boldness. While it is arguably acceptable to reduce the emphasis on Suburban Exp's disputes with students, there was clearly no consensus for raising the article's rhetoric on Suburban Exp's "rigorously enforcing" it's "terms of service." 135.0.167.2 (talk) 07:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute to me, and not something that requires admin action. If you cannot settle your disagreements on the talk page, I would say that the best thing to do is to take it to the dispute resolution noticeboard. Given SlimVirgin's copy edits to the article I would say that she is involved, but I don't see her advice for the COI editors to stay away as being problematic, as long as it is only advice and not a demand. The main guiding policies here are verifiability, neutral point of view and consensus, and I can't see that she has broken any of these, especially given her well-reasoned post here. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There was no consensus reached for that copyedit, nor are the edits a neutral point of view. An example can be seen in these edits marked in my second to last paragraph above: "while adding self-published primary sources and interviews to promote the subject." These edits (which are and advertisement and quote from the owner about riding statistics, which display no verifiability) coupled with the release of private info available to admins creates a significant problem.24.15.78.1 (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• "SlimVirgin used admin privileges to dig out non visible (and irrelevant) material"--where? how? pretty significant charge (I suppose we're aiming for a cumulative effect here), but I don't see what she did wrong in that comment. Drmies (talk) 14:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

  The AFC submission SV references in her comment was deleted at AlmostGrad's request and is thus currently visible only to admins. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Correct, and it is improperly used. SV says in the link, "It's worth noting that AlmostGrad created Dennis Toeppen via articles for creation; the submission was rejected because it was a largely negative article about a living person, but someone else posted it (a shorter version, but in several sections identical). AlmostGrad crossed a line by doing that..." BUT, AlmostGrad is correct is stating, " In any case, an AfC submission by me is no justification or defense for outing NegatedVoid. Also, I'm not sure if submitting a well-sourced draft to AfC (where it is reviewed for potential tone/NPOV/sourcing issues before being published in articlespace) is comparable to outing - the draft was merely declined, and the deletion was a G7, not G10 as would have been the case if it were a BLP violation."24.15.78.1 (talk) 15:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• So, the AfC should have been G10ed instead of G7ed. Why can't SlimVirgin refer to something only admins can see? Where does this new charge--if I read IP24's comments correctly--of outing someone come from? I'm beginning to think that both articles should be deleted under G14:More Trouble Than It's Worth. Drmies (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, it was NOT deleted under G10, so stating what "should" have been is not applicable to this discussion and "should" be disregarded. In a formal court, "should" haves would also not be a valid argument by either party. If it "should" have been, it would have been. Also, SV used his/her admin privileges to violate policy. These privileges were incorrectly used to prove a "point", of which did not relate to the Suburban Express article in itself. This privilege was used to publicly take a personal stance against an editor 24.15.78.1 (talk) 17:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• "If it should have been it would have been" is nonsense. If someone says that G7 was an error, perhaps they're right. Not a huge deal. Your links are all fine and dandy, but I still don't see the violation. What I do see is that you misrepresent SlimVirgin's "major edit", which was not marked (perhaps only abbreviated) as a copy edit in the edit summary or on the talk page. Drmies (talk) 18:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

@Drmies:, that is incorrect. It was explicitly called a copyedit by SV...the section is even called Copy edit. You cannot make the assumption that G7 was in error. That was not mentioned anywhere, except not so subtly by SV. You may also want to note this24.15.78.1 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• I must have landed in some alternate universe. Let's see. You say AlmostGrad is correct in stating it was deleted as G7 but should have been deleted as G10 if it were a BLP violation. I say it was deleted as G7 and maybe should have been deleted as G10. You say that's wrong of me to say, since I can't say "should" since I can't use the word "should" in a court of law. I suppose you're right in principle that I cannot make the assumption that G7 was in error, but as it happens I am an administrator and I saw no request for G7 nor a blanking in that AfC, so I surmise that G7 was in error. "Copyedit"--it was called a whole bunch of things, not just "copyedit". The edit summaries and talk page discussions aren't hidden, so anyone can see that you're incorrect. What the hell, I'll cite the edit summary: "tightened, some rewriting, rmvd some repetitive refs, blogs".

  One more thing. You're here trying to get some kind of administrative action. From an administrator, I presume. I am an administrator. You're not doing much to make me want to act--besides, I can't tell anymore what it is you want. There is something, though, that I'm aching to do: disallow you from editing the article and the talk page, of the bus outfit and of Toeppen. You're nothing but disruption and I can say with some confidence that I don't have a COI here, and can act in an uninvolved manner. In fact, I think I would like someone to close this since it's too long, too uninteresting, too poorly written, too contradictory. And that's my comment. I'll only be back here should a boomerang fly by and input is requested. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• It was G7'ed at my request, not in error. If it were G10-worthy, it would have been immediately G10'ed by the AfC reviewer. It was declined at AfC for tone and balance issues - I was asked to find positive material to balance out the negative stuff - which is not really possible when the subject is only known for owning a bus service that sues customers, and for cybersquatting - as you can see from the current version of the article.

Why SlimVirgin should not dig up and use material visible only to admins is because they are an involved party here, with a strong, decidedly non-neutral point of view, and using admin-only access (or even knowledge of existence, which only admins will readily have) of a deleted G7 draft from several months back as an argument for defending the owner, who is currently blocked and is outing people off-wiki (on-wiki near-outing was part of the reason for this editor's block), means that SlimVirgin is using privileges not available to regular editors to further their point of view. This sets regular editors up at a disadvantage, and makes the discussion an uneven playing field. One could argue that if SlimVirgin were not an admin they could still have requested a copy of the deleted draft from an admin, but I think it is quite improbable that a non-admin editor would have easily found out the existence of the deleted draft, then requested it from an admin, and then investigated its history. I also doubt an admin would have readily provided them the draft without them showing good cause, like wanting to further work on the draft and a desire to fix the issues it had - I don't think an admin would have provided the draft in order to aid collectoin of information to use against another editor. What is SlimVirgin trying to prove anyway? That I have issues with the company? I have already explicitly declared my CoI on my userpage long back. SlimVirgin says:

"It's worth noting that AlmostGrad created Dennis Toeppen via articles for creation... AlmostGrad crossed a line by doing that, just as Arri at Suburban Express crossed a line by posting real names on his website."

As I responded, I am not sure if submitting a well-sourced draft to AfC (where it is reviewed for potential tone/NPOV/sourcing issues before being published in articlespace) is comparable to outing, or is an appropriate justification/defense/minimization rationale for the latter.

I am not sure if admins are expected to stick together (or whether that was said in jest), but it seems like a lack of AGF to me when Drmies accuses the inexperienced IP of misrepresentation for using the phrase "marked as copy edit", while dismissing the use of "copy edit" by SlimVirgin as a mere abbreviation - the IP never said the "marked" in their post referred to the edit summary - and the corresponding talk page section by Slimirgin is indeed titled "Copy edit" - which is a misleading term for an experienced editor to use for such a significant edit, especially since copy edit is about the only kind of change an editor is allowed to make to a contentious article without discussion or before seeking consensus. AlmostGrad (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

@Drmies:, that is not fair. In my link above SV even labels the link you show as a copyedit, please click the link and look. S/he just adds a different note on the edit itself. Additionally, My request is clear in the last paragraph of the initial post. If you feel the need to block me due to my proposal/incident, I will accept it because my copyedit comment is 100% accurate. I also have never attempted, nor will attempt to edit the Dennis Toeppen page/talk OR Suburban Express article page. You can block me on those anyway. Sj 24.15.78.1 (talk) 22:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why this thread was started - SlimVirgin is making a solid attempt at improving the article, and it is getting better as a result. Please continue to work through its talk page. Suggesting specific content changes and compromises is more helpful than challenging someone else's work or meta-challenging their use of process. There's no admin abuse here; starting drama on ANI will not improve the article. (Also: That is a confusing use of my username; could you move it or label it with 'cc:' ? It is better to ping people at the start of a comment.) – SJ + 01:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't really understand, and don't want to bother to try to understand whether or not SV was correct in the point they made that you mention. But I do think you're concentrating way too much on the admin abuse thing. As I understand it, the AFC page was deleted on request of the sole contributor. AFAIK, this is mainly do with the fact that AFC is not intended to be some sort of repository so if the original creator isn't interested in proceeding with the AFC there's likely no point keeping it. But if someone asked for it to be kept and indicated they planned to continue with it, it's likely it would be kept. Besides that, plenty of admins will provide a copy of a deleted page, assuming it wasn't deleted for copyright or as an attack page or similar reasons. Even in the case of a courtesy deletion (which doesn't seem to be the case here), if you had legitimate reasons to want to look in to someone's history, it's likely an admin would help (exceptions would be cases would be where privacy would be a major concern like if someone accidentally revealed their IP or real name or something although those cases should generally be suppressed anyway). Perhaps SV could have asked an another admin instead of looking themselves but really from the limited I've seen, I don't see anything majorly wrong with SV checking out the deleted AFC. Nil Einne (talk) 17:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

This article has had several non-neutral closely involved editors who are also in a real-world battle with each other. This has involved not only locking horns with each other, but also critiquing neutral editors and their work as a way of further their causes. As a result the article, several noticeboards, and some user talk pages have all been turned into a drama-fest, and the neutral and near-neutral editors trying to help have been given a whole lot of grief and subject to numerous ginned-up accusations. North8000 (talk) 17:43, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll insert in here just one point on which I very much agree with User:North8000. As a nuetral editor with no COI relative to Suburban Express, who happened to weigh in with a few comments on that Talk page in the past week or two, and to date, has made a very few relatively minor edits (and one of those only after a BRD on the Talk page), I will just say that having these real-world intellectual enemies arguing and screwing up Misplaced Pages over their quite public disagreements, and then excessive wiki-lawyering and trollish behavior by many on both sides, has made it nearly impossible to make any progress with improving the article. (or, at least, to make any progress at a cost low enough that any sane volunteer editor would put up with it!)

So whomever suggested a topic-ban for all the (now) identified COI folks on both sides, or at least for a designated period for a cooling off period, would be fine by me. Then the few of us neutral editors who are left could actually work collaboratively on describing encyclopedically this small US company, in a way that endeavors to be neutral and reflect both sides, as well as not put undue emphasis on any part of the history or the current wiki-spat. Cheers. N2e (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that identifying them (one is currently blocked) and giving them a strong warning to 99% stick to content in discussions, and if they going to a noticeboard with something weak it is likely to boomerang on them.North8000 (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

As described above, AlmostGrad was strictly sticking to content and was left with zero responses. I also attempted to give productive responses to content since SV made such a dramatic copyedit.....However, that discussion is about content, which is not applicable on this board. 24.15.78.1 (talk) 18:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

First, after seeing the real-world battle (and what has spilled over into Misplaced Pages), out in the real world battle I'd be 100% with you, but we're not there. That said, whether it was right or wrong, taking SV to ani just for referring to using some non-visible material to inform her thoughts is an example of what I complained about in my previous post. North8000 (talk) 18:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Please take North8000's comment to heart, rather than arguing it. Be patient, and content discussions will get a response. If you alienate editors who take an interest in the article by drawing them into unwanted drama, you may end up without any neutral editors willing to get involved. – SJ + 01:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll take the comments to heart. I think I am either confused on the rules or don't understand the proper process to have my original concern (last paragraph of initial post) addressed. A dramatic edit was done on a controversial topic without discussion after a long 3 month chain of mediated edits. After well sourced suggestions are proposed/presented, they are completely ignored on the talk page by that same editor who made the dramatic change. Finally, that same editor tells everyone to stay away and refrain from even discussing. I'll attempt to re-read the rules, but I'm baffled on on this one. 24.15.78.1 (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know whether SV's edits should stay or not, but it looks to me like none of the neutral-ish people there even reverted or disputed them, and you have essentially (by coming here) gone far beyond disputing the edits onto alleging improper behavior by SV. You might have not understood that you did this, but you did. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

There were a few who did dispute the edits, but given the amount of controversy that had already ensued around the article, none attempted to revert the edits (and to be honest, I don't blame them). Here are some examples: "It looks better(ish) I think, though probably a bit too far the other way" and "I don't completely agree with SlimVirgin's whitewash under BLP rules. However, I digress. I will leave that for all of you to decide. 24.15.78.1 (talk) 04:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and personal attacks by Johnsmith2116

Johnsmith2116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Beginning about here this editor began doing edits to golfer articles. If you look at the win boxes you'll see he starts it but leaves it half empty. His edit summary reads 'someone please complete the information, thank you'

Similar edits can be found to golfer or golf tournament articles here, here , here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. All with similar edit summaries. There are more, but this is just meant as a sampling and meant to show this editor's track history.

In early June I asked this editor on his talk page to do complete and stop the incomplete ones. After no reply and further instances of this editing, I asked administrator The Bushranger to have a word with JS2116. He did here and after further edits of the same type, TBR issued a even stronger warning for him to stop doing the incomplete edits

For a while JS2116 made correct edits but then in September went back to his old ways with an edit like this which actually contained question marks in place of the player's scores. TBR issued yet another warning

Not too long after that, Jsmith did this edit which was incorrect because the tournament was still ongoing. I told TBR about it, and for the first time Jsmith replied back on a talk page. It can be found here. He accused me of trying to intimidate him. TNR said I wasn't and Jsmith replied back

Which brings us to yesterday and today. He made this edit to the ] article with the edit summary 'there's a glitch in here, don't know how to fix it)' His edit was going to make a mess of Kirk's win box and knew it but went ahead and did it anyway. I reverted the edit before properly editing Kirk's victory from yesterday into the box.

I didn't raise this edit with TBR not till today when without explanation, Jsmith reverted an edit of mine to Fonty Flock. My edit had corrected information about Flock's death and included a source for it but Jsmith for whatever inexplicable reason reverted it. I then told TBR about this and the Chris Kirk edit.

Since then Jsmith has accused me of lying today to TBR without proof(and there is none) and accusing me of bullying him. Check his posts to TBR's here and to another editor's talk page. That editor had left a message on my talk page warning me of what Jsmith had said to TBR.

As I've written, Misplaced Pages might have the best golf recordkeeping around. I wouldn't have any problem with Jsmith if he'd just stop making incomplete edits. Jsmith's refused to do so on multiple occasions even though they have been asked not to and been warned by an administrator that some of his work is disruptive. Now he is conducting personal attacks against me too....William 18:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

We refuse to tolerate this anymore - 2+ years is long enough; WilliamJE's e-bullying days are over

I was notified through Yahoo Messenger a few minutes ago, by one of the above editors' many victims that he has tried to e-bully over the last 2 years, that there was a message waiting here for me. So I'm going to jump right in.

Before I get started, I'll say that when you have an editor who stlks the section, waiting to catch someone in the middle of a 2-part edit, and then in the middle of it report it as false, instead of waiting to see if it maybe was a mistake, or if possibly unfinished and that it'll be finished in good faith in a few minutes, you've got a rogue editor who just wants to start trouble with people. Users don't need a trouble-making stalker waiting for them every weekend.

Now I'll say what I was going to say: I wanted to let you know that that the person in question has a 2-plus year history of abusing this system to intimidate several users. And he's lied several times in the past, and today is no exception. But it's more than that - on weekends. he stalks the place in waiting, in the hope that he catches people in the MIDDLE of an edit, one in which we have every intention of getting right, but when we don't complete it in 10 seconds, he steps in to mess with it and goes running to the Misplaced Pages principal to tattle. Fact is there's probably a lot about him that you aren't aware of. There are 2 sides to the story, and you've mainly just gotten the one from him in which he either highly stretched the truth or flat out lied, to you and several others. I'm sorry if you got caught in the middle. Hopefully this kind of thing will stop, but with his type (because I've had the misfortune of knowing his type in real life), it's unlikely to stop. But please keep in mind, even THE most active golf editor in all of Misplaced Pages (who I won't name, as it would be unfair to him) has never had a problem, he's left me alone and never gotten on my case. Only this one guy has, because he likes to play internet tough guy and thinks he's a lot more important than he is, and doesn't allow for temporary, easily repairable mistake by anyone, for whatever reasons that only a warped mind like his could possibly understand. If that person Bushranger would like to intervene and take the statements of several other good users who he has tried to cowardly e-intimidate, then it shall be so.

He also tried to claim that I falsely accused him of lying. This is pitiful, and yet predictable - every liar always says they are falsely accused of lying. He has lied on SEVERAL occasions about users, today is not the first. .. Fact is he falsely accuses me of making an inexcusable edit when in fact I went to edit the wrong page by MISTAKE -- but instead of trying to find out what happened, he did what an opportunistic bullies like him do and used it as a means to lie and say it was malicious. Please don't fall for that.

I'll not stand for this and won't be intimidated. I've dealt with scum the likes that that user can't imagine, and I will NOT let a "keyboard warrior" like him pretend to be Mr. Tough Guy at my expense.

And he just LIED to you today at least TWICE, on top of everything else. First, I made no "replacing" or whatever garbage he calls it. Second, heaven forbid I make an honest mistake, "oh my god the sky is falling someone made a mistake! Keyboard warrior to the rescue, how dare that person make an honest human mistake, can't have that, I'll teach him, I'm the keyboard warrior! I'll fix him and go crying to the principal again!" This garbage of his has gotten old and pathetic and MANY other's are sick of his garbage and petty stuff. He needs seriously to get a life. I'll continue to do my editing as the rest of the others have without being intimidated by him. —

He also tried to claim that I falsely accused him of lying. This is pitiful, and yet predictable - every liar always says they are falsely accused of lying. He has lied on SEVERAL occasions about users, today is not the first. .. Fact is he falsely accuses me of making an inexcusable edit when in fact I went to edit the wrong page by mistake -- but instead of trying to find out what happened, he did what an opportunistic bully like him does and used it as a means to lie and say it was malicious. Please don't fall for his BS. Darn right this has to end -- WilliamJE's 2-year reign as the bully of Misplaced Pages will stop.

I, along with all the others that he tried to intimidate and failed at intimidating, will continue our good faith editing with the very rare, unwitting, unintentional mistake without fear of some e-bully trying to play God and throw his weight around.

Not every editor here makes 100 edits per day, not every editor here knows all the ins and outs of the system and is allowed to make a small technical error once in a while without The Gooch of Misplaced Pages trying to come along and steal his lunch money in the schoolyard. I didn't tolerate bullies in REAL life, and I'll be damned if I'm going to allow an internet bully obviously with too much time on his hands to bully me here either.

And oh by the way, as pointed out to me by one of his countless would-be victims in a private chat, you'll notice that he has a lot more RED next to his edits than he has GREEN. He likes to take people's hard work and creativity and with the push of a button make it disappear, for now reason, obviously because he doesn't have enough else going on in life. He gets off on trying to make people miserable. He must have been rejected when he was a kid and wants to take it out on the world in his aduly years, I don't know.

I've had this account for 6 years, and only started editing last year. And I'll CONTINUE editing. I'm not afraid of some rogue e-bully. There are millions of them just like him here in the USA, and they're aren't tough, and I'll not be intimidated. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 19:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There's something else to keep in mind -- as with all people with social problems, he lets things linger and carry over and use it as an excuse a long time down the road - he remembers from a few months ago how I didn't let him intimidate me THEN, and now he is still trying to do it, so, since he's realized that after 2 months I'm STILL not allowing him to intimidate me, he can't stand it, and he lashes out. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

TLDR. Provide diffs to prove your points. People here are busy and are not going to go running looking for the information you're claiming. Please provide links or your claims are baseless. Oh and be careful of the boomerang over there, looking at your edit history and talk page you've been asked to be more careful on your edits and you've ignore them and refused to discuss, make sure it doesn't hit you (though I think I can see it on it's way back.) Canterbury Tail talk 19:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Click here to see a list of where they both edited together, and how far apart, and how many edits each made to that page. Dream Focus 19:51, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
• I have advised User:WilliamJE of this posting as required. JodyB _talk 20:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
• And I was also not notified, despite being mentioned, as is required. As I've advised this user before, regardless of how he feels about another editor, personal attacks are never acceptable, and the sheer volume of them in the above screed makes it impossible to regard with anything other than a hefted WP:BOOMERANG, especially when there is blatant "following and reverting" like this being done.. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:39, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

My apologies, Bushranger and company, on not notifying - this whole thing with this back and forth protesting is new to me, and I'm not up on the protocol. If I had known, I'd have notified you. Also I'd like to mention, what I said about that particular editor was not meant as a personal attack, but rather more of a possible statement of fact. But I'll take your advice and keep that type of talk out of it. Thank you. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I suggest starting with the Editor Interaction Analyzer and then use diffs with all the edits that are close in time to explain your position.I am One of Many (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked Johnsmith for one week for disruptive editing, including personal attacks, WP:IDHT, the obvious bad edits to articles, and sock puppet threats. John's contributions here made things worse, not better. And even after he posted here, he added this paragraph to an earlier screed. He has steadfastly refused to acknowledge any of the problems he has created; instead he just lashes out at his accuser, and with no evidence to back it up.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

User:AfricaTanz

I am seeking help with User:AfricaTanz for soapboxing, loading articles with content only tangentially pertinent to them (and then in a prescriptive, agenda-laden way), and for refusing categorically to engage with anyone who tries to speak with him.

He has persisted in using articles on LGBT rights in a set of at least thirteen African nations as a forum for soapboxing. The user has dropped large blocks of identical text into these articles, almost entirely addressing international agreements that often don't even mention the country in question at all, with the implication being that each country in question is supposed to be abiding by these agreements. This intent is made manifest by such section headings as "Ghana's obligations under international law and treaties".

Over time (this has now been going on for over a year), several of us have removed this content and attempted numerous times to reason with AfricaTanz. I suggested, for example, that the material could go in one place and that each of the articles could make reference to it to the extent it could be given relevance to each country. His response has been to ban us from his Talk page, to refuse to respond to any of the points we make, and to attack us in edit summaries.

The issue went to Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_53#LGBT_rights dispute resolution and AfricaTanz declined to participate in any way. At the time, User:TransporterMan suggested we could go to Rfc/U or here. Since AfricaTanz declines to participate and won't listen to anybody, and since Rfc/U has no enforcement power, I didn't see any value in seeking help there. Therefore, I've come here.

Most of the pertinent facts and links to related discussions are at the DR Noticeboard archive linked above. Recent activities can be seen in the histories of LGBT rights in Senegal and LGBT rights in Ghana (example diffs: and ).

I see that User:AfricaTanz, who until the last time I looked had an "on vacation" notice that ended earlier this month, now has one that started yesterday and ends in May. Yet he's editing today. For what it's worth. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history for LGBT rights in Ghana, it seems that AfricaTanz is edit-warring to include this material. I'd suggest this, together with the contributors apparent refusal to discuss the matter in the past, may well be grounds for a block, at least until AfricaTanz agrees to participate in discussions over the issue. Engaging appropriately in discussions over disputed material is a necessary part of being a Misplaced Pages contributor, and AfricaTanz needs to show willing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The material AfricaTanz is reinserting into LGBT rights in Ghana and other articles was already the subject of an RFC at Talk:LGBT rights under international law#Duplicated text on countries' obligations under international law. The consensus was that the material is original research, a novel synthesis, and/or not directly relevant to country-specific articles. To date all attempts to engage AfricaTanz in discussion about this material have been unsuccessful: messages posted on his user talk page are immediately removed, sometimes followed by a statement that the poster is now "banned" from his page, and discussions on project or article talk pages are likewise either ignored or boycotted. I'm at a loss as to what else can be done to get this user to start editing collaboratively rather than combatively. —Psychonaut (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The issue may be a little more complex. Back in August 2013, AfricaTanz was removing lots of stuff like this: - which had previously been edit-warred into many articles by a (dynamic) IP editor. What's going on here? bobrayner (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The IP accounts almost certainly are User:AfricaTanz, before he created an account. The accounts got blocked for the same sort of edit warring (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive199#User:70.253.75.84 reported by User:Jenova20 (Result: 1 week)), and IIRC the pages also got semi-protected. This forced whoever was operating the IP accounts to create a named account, and they've continued ever since. The removals in question were apparently precipitated by the RFC; almost immediately after the RFC page got accidentally deleted he started reposting the material. —Psychonaut (talk) 20:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! I agree that the material should go... bobrayner (talk) 20:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of duplication, here are the search results for AfricaTanz on admin noticeboards. Two ANIs and two AN3 reports. Blocked once for a week as an IP in November 2012 and then once for 48 hours in June 2013 as a registered account. A complaint about AfricaTanz's edits on LGBT rights was filed at DRN in November 2012 but he chose not to respond. In my opinion we're getting close to an indef block if the editor has no intention of joining in discussions. Communication isn't negotiable. EdJohnston (talk) 22:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I've just removed some problematic content from many of the LGBT-rigts-in-Africa articles. These articles often seem to have other problems - IE. lengthy quotes from legislation and standardised exerpts from country-by-country reposts on human rights &c - which would probably need to be fixed, but we can deal with that later. Now is not the time for scope creep. bobrayner (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

So what's the remedy here? I just had another read through all the old links posted upthread, which contain reports of the same behaviour posted by many other users. Despite all these reports, the attempts at personal engagement, an RFC, and several blocks, there's been no change in AfricaTanz's behaviour. I'm led to believe that his editing privileges should be suspended until he demonstrates an understanding of why his behaviour has been disruptive, and agrees to start communicating and working collaboratively. Are we agreed? —Psychonaut (talk) 21:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

That's my feeling. (I'm realizing I wasn't explicit in my intro about the remedy I was seeking, but that was it.) I feel quite confident in what appears to the mutual consensus that has developed among a greater group here and elsewhere that AfricaTanz makes a lot of questionable contributions, that we have been correct in challenging and reverting them, that he has subjected us to bouts of incivility, and that we are frustrated by our failure thus far to prevent repetition of this cycle or get any cooperation from AfricaTanz in our attempts to do so. I believe that through a variety of channels we've more than amply justified an indefinite block at least until AfricaTanz joins us for constructive discussions leading to a mutually satisfactory understanding of the parameters. —Largo Plazo (talk) 22:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Banned user maintaining ArbCom election guide

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In addition to carrying on other continued wiki dealings from his talk page, this user is now actively maintaining an ArbCom "voter guide" for "Election 2013". He was banned indefinitely by ArbCom in August 2013. It may be of note that this user has maintained ArbCom voter guides in the past.

Full disclosure, User:Richwales, a potential candidate who is projected somewhat negatively in this guide, brought this issue up at the 2013 election info talk page, which is the only reason I know about it. I have absolutely no idea who Richwales or Kiefer.Wolfowitz are, I don't think I've ever voted in an ArbCom election, and I don't plan to this year. This just seemed like inappropriate activity for an indefinitely banned editor. equazcion → 23:19, 11 Nov 2013 (UTC)

What was Kiefer Wolfowitz banned indefinitely from doing, and has he breached that ban? He's not banned from posting on his talk page is he? Eric Corbett 23:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Don't see the harm personally, he's usuallyinvariably quite insightful. But it surely is an Arbcom enforcement matter if anything. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement Leaky Caldron 23:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I commented on the linked page where the question was raised, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Kiefer was "indefinitely banned from the English Language Misplaced Pages" by ArbCom last August (see the Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds arbitration case). Per WP:BAN, a site-banned editor is not considered to be a member of the Misplaced Pages community and is not allowed to make any edit, good or bad, anywhere on Misplaced Pages. The only recognized exception to this is that a banned editor who still has talk page access may use their talk page to lodge an appeal of their ban — though it should be noted here that Kiefer, per the terms of his ban, is not allowed to ask ArbCom for reinstatement until August 2014 at the earliest. It should be noted, FWIW, that the prohibition on banned editors using their talk page is not consistently enforced in practice. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Strictly speaking, he is not allowed to do that, but, strictly speaking, I don't really give a shit and fail to see why anyone else should.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't care personally, but it seems like a strict adherence might prevent things like this from being a way to post a veiled enemies list, of sorts, or soapbox against the types of ArbCom people who would have agreed with a user's ban, etc. I haven't actually read this particular guide much, but if it were up to me, I'd want to avoid creating a situation where we'd need to judge content, and simply disallow significant project stuff altogether from banned users' talk pages. equazcion → 00:18, 12 Nov 2013 (UTC)
    • Precisely - it's WP:WIKILAWYERING of the ban at best, and seems very much like a "I'm not really proxying" attempt to proxy-influence Misplaced Pages in defiance of his community ban. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Sigh. I'll take the OP at his word that he knows nothing of the background here. Keifer (more accurately the operator of the Keifer account) is a 4chan troll, as I've been pointing out for years. Quite admire his/her skill actually. Let's not feed. Pedro :  Chat  00:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll bite, what is a "4chan troll"? Someone who trolls in Fortran? :-) As an aside, I agree with everything Rich said above.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I am posting a link to this discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2013/Coordination, which seems to be the right place to get the attention of the people running the election. At least, that is where you go when you click on "Contact the coordinators" on the election template. It seems that nobody has actually signed up to be a "coordinator" yet, but we do have three appointed Election Commissioners, and I would say this is an issue for them. (And I would also say the real issue is not that the user in question is posting about the election on his talk page, but that his talk page is listed in the Voter Guide section of the "official" election template.) Neutron (talk) 01:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

From reading the outcome of the Arbitration case, it is clear that the intent of the Arbitration Committee was to remove Kiefer.Wolofowitz from all of en.wp for at least 12 months. Attempting to engage the community is in my opinion a clear violation of the spirit of that ban and a clear violation of the spirit of allowing banned users talk page access. I would recommend removing the voter guide and removing his talk page access until August 2014 when he may choose to appeal his ban. As I intend to vote in this year's election (and maybe write a guide myself if I find time) I will not take action myself. Thryduulf (talk) 02:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I've NEVER heard of Kiefer, nor of ArbCom. Ahem. As far as I'm concerned this isn't a big deal, and Richwales is right that this is probably not OK but also inconsistently enforced. I do wonder about Nikkimaria's adding KW's guide to the ACE2013 template; removing that reduces exposure and lowers the barometric pressure of any possible shit storm system. Or heightens it, whatever makes for less storm. Drmies (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Strong meh per Devil's Advocate. Reyk _YO! 03:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Agree with the "meh" sentiment as for KW's action. But I don't think condoning it by listing it on the candidate guides page is a good idea. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• If a person is maintaining some kind of guide for this ArbCom election, but who is, for various reasons, prevented from editing or adding to content, then they could be seen as doing us all a favour, because it takes the pressure off the rest of us to do one. That means we can be avoiding unnecessary drama so we can get on adding and editing content. It does depend on how neutral and unbiased the guide is. However, it seems to me that an automatic complaint is just a means of creating or perpetuating drama when there's far more important things to do (editing and adding to content!) than feeling outrage or looking for things to object to on administrative grounds. It's as The Devil's Advocate wrote (I almost spelt the name as "The Devil's Advocaat"!)  DDStretch  (talk) 03:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Seeing as Kiefer's ban was enacted by Arbcom and not the community, Arbcom would be the people to ask about this. While banned users usually do not have access to their talk pages, there may have been internal Arbcom discussion about what the block settings should be for Kiefer's block, so I wouldn't want to change them without consulting Arbcom first. How about making a request for clarification? — Mr. Stradivarius 04:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Ha. No thanks. I wonder if ArbCom could be bothered to just respond here when needed, instead of requiring us to determine when reports need to go to them. I'm about as likely to start this over again someplace else as a green snake is to deliberately crawl under under a sugarcane truck. I brought this here to inform others, in case the community felt it was something to be concerned with. If anyone feels like doing whatever the rules have determined is the proper course here, they should go ahead. equazcion → 07:00, 12 Nov 2013 (UTC)
• As long as the voters guide remains just that I don't see a problem with it being on his talk page. Almost regardless of the reason for someone being banned or blocked it is a positive if they can continue to engage constructively via their talkpage. Of course there are occasions where even that access has needed to be removed, but I'm not seeing that here. ϢereSpielChequers 07:51, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support revocation I have no background with this banned user (although I have taken it upon myself to learn about the circumstances of his banishment), but I think it is unwise to be lax with this policy. If the user cannot appeal his banishment until next August, then there is little reason for him to have talk page access. Whether he is using it to edit "constructively" is actually quite beside the point. Everyone involved in Kiefer's case agreed that he is a fine content editor. That he was banned despite these contributions underscores the need for separation between him and the community until he can appeal his ban and demonstrate that he belongs here. The "net positive" approach seems odd when discussing a banned user. --Jprg1966  09:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• What's this project supposed to be about, constructive collaboration or the mindless (and intermittent) enforcement of petty rules? K.W has a lot of experience and is offering us some insightful thoughts. Is that collaborative and constructive? Of course it is. People need to stop whining and get on with the election (and the encyclopedia) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think "whining" is a very charitable way to describe a good-faith request for input. Is it not a legitimate policy question how we enforce bans? --Jprg1966  09:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
    • If what you're interested in is the blind enforcing of rules, go ahead and fill yer boots. But if more people stopped and asked the simple question "Is this actually helping or hindering the project?" before engaging in discussions like this, there'd be a lot less drama round here. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm off to do something constructive - bye. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• What Devil's Advocate said. And what Boing! said Zebedee said. Joefromrandb (talk) 09:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• I'd like Kiefer to be allowed to put an election guide on his talk page. Cardamon (talk) 09:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I'll also add that with the amount of banned users that sock, troll, vandalize, harass, and threaten, the fact that someone wants to sanction a banned user who is actively attempting to improve the encyclopedia is troubling, but unsurprising. Joefromrandb (talk) 09:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
    • But what is the purpose of a ban, then? By judgment of the Arbcom, this user's conduct merited a complete dissociation between himself and Misplaced Pages for at least a year, until he could appeal that judgment. This user was not banned for editing in poor faith (i.e., that they were NOTHERE), and nobody denied prior to the ban that this user could make constructive edits. The judgment of the Arbcom was that the need for this user to be separated from the community outweighed those constructive edits. --Jprg1966  09:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)
    • (edit conflict) I think it's anybody's guess whether the intent is to improve the encyclopedia, but either way I'd rather we didn't have to make that call. Banned users were banned because it was already determined that they shouldn't be involved in the project, no matter what it might look like they're attempting. So yes, I think something sactionesque should likely happen here and in other similar situations (troubling as that may seem to some). It deoesn't make sense, to me, to leave the door open for ban discussion #2 once userspace starts getting used this way. equazcion → 09:56, 12 Nov 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) x a lot. OK, I've now removed K.W's candidate guide from {{Template:ACE2013}}. My rationale for this is that a banned user should not have their views included in a template like this. I did this with a full understanding of its possible consequences. If sh*rt happens as a result, then hey - sh*rt happens. Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 09:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I've reverted, on the basis that it was added in good faith by a user in good standing, and we should wait for this discussion to conclude. Joefromrandb (talk) 10:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• The purpose of a user's talkpage while blocked or banned is to permit them to formulate a a return to the community via an unblock request, and then to submit that request for discussion. Banned users should not be attempting to influence Misplaced Pages policy, edits to the project, or other things related to Misplaced Pages while banned. Banning is, after all, a social creation, often effected by a block. KW has been editing his talkpage extensively since his ban ... all in contravention of the Banning Policy. If we need to lock talkpage access fur the duration of the ban to fully implement the social ban, then someone needs to do it ... and remove material that he should not have been creating to begin with. This is not an IAR situation, it's policy ES&L 10:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • IAR clearly allows for suspension of policy for actions that improve the encyclopedia. And IAR is policy. Saying: "this isn't an IAR situation, it's policy", is like saying: "that's not an animal, it's a horse. Joefromrandb (talk) 10:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• This is being discussed in multiple fora and should be centralized. Joefromrandb (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The closest thing to a consensus are the various iterations which state that "this is a matter for Arbcom to decide"; I agree. Therefore I have filed a request for clarification as I think the question deserves a proper answer.—John Cline (talk) 11:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I spoke at the first venue, said so here (the second), - do we now have to go to the next? - My experience with the last arb "clarification" were not promising, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• It's now at Arb Clarification ... this one can be shut down ES&L 11:16, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
• Let him have his say also...Modernist (talk) 11:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Revdelete please?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anyone mind revdeleting this? It's a user revealing her password. We don't want a compromised account here. Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 23:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Revision deleted and user blocked indefinitely. See User talk:Christine Cherney#Blocked. - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

For future reference though, this noticeboard is not the place to request revdeletion. See Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents for instructions. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Polemical use of sandboxes by thewolfchild

thewolfchild (talk · contribs) appears to be using his/her sandbox histories as places to store WP:UP#POLEMIC information regarding folks s/he is holding a grudge against. The chronicling followed by blanking is far too consistent to be anything other than a sneaky way around WP:UP#POLEMIC. Users and discussions chronicled:

• BilCat (talk · contribs)
• Nick Thorne (talk · contribs) , ,
• Toddst1 (talk · contribs) ,

This is not the first time this has been a problem with this editor: This user has previously been blocked for maintaining similar, more obviously polemical lists after this discussion on ANI.

I think that at the bare minimum, these sandbox pages should be deleted or the many polemical edits subject to revision deletion.

There was a proposal to indefinitely block thewolfchild on ANI last month put forth by EatsShootsAndLeaves (talk · contribs) and Rklawton (talk · contribs) as thewolfchild was previously "unblocked with the understanding that any such repeat of CIVIL and BATTLE would mean an indef block immediately with no chance of unblock" and appeared once again to be violating those standards. The motion was archived without achieving consensus. Toddst1 (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Couple of items of disruptive I noted, it seems the old problems never went away:

Talk:Aircraft carrier (and yes, we all know bill and nick hate this and are completely opposed. thanks anyway) Don't think that was needed or helped really given the previous irritations with this editor. See also removing content where there is clearly no consensus to do so in Talk:Aircraft carrier and then wikilawyering over WP:BRD

Requested not to post at User talk:BilCat when that user had already indicated they were disengaging. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:55, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the most recent status of the sandbox before it was blanked , it appears he was drafting a complaint to be filed somewhere. I am inclined to let it slide given the relatively conciliatory message he left BilCat after blanking the page. Whether his overall behavior was worthy of an indef block is not something I looked into, but I don't think this user was trying to publicly shame the above editors by using his sandbox in that way. --Jprg1966  15:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

A "concilliatory" message posted directly after he was specifically asked not to...sometimes you cool things off by not posting. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

As the victim of long-term harassment by banned trolls, including in the past week on my talk page, I expect users to stay off my page when requested, as I have done multiple times with this user, including today. I understand that he was upset when I referred to him "The Child", in reference to both his user name and his childish behavior at Talk:Aircraft carrier, but there are forums such as this one that he can use to address that. I am sorry that I allowed the whole situation to escalate the way it did, and I understand that the name calling is inappropriate, and I had previously said that I would not do it again, and I did not. However, TWC changed my comments to remove it, and that is also inappropriatewhich I had reverted. Please note that he has asked others to "Stay off my talk page", even today, apparently for this neutral note.

I am still extremely upset at his baiting of Nick and me at Talk:Aircraft carrier, as WCM reported above, in which his comments had the effect of marginalizing any response Nick or I could have made. This was completely uncalled for on his part, as this was a brand new discussion that he started, and I have yet to receive the apology that I asked for here. That said, I should have walked away from the later discussions when they got contentious again rather than continue to respond to him, which escalated the feud. I let my own stubborness keep me in the conversation after I should have walked away, as I feared him taking a lack of response as permission to continue his edits as he saw fit.

I'd like to propose an interaction ban between myself and TWC, should he be allowed to contiue editing on WP. I have respected his desire that I stay off his talk page, and I fully expect him to stay off of mine, except in the case of notices he is required to leave, not including "warnings", such as this one. I would like TWC to be excluded from editing Aircraft carrier, and participating in discussions at Talk:Aircraft carrier, directly or indirectly. Nick and I have both been long-term editors on that page, but I will refrain from editing there if that is imposed on me by the community. However, Nick is an old carrier pilot, and I think restricting his access to those page would be too punitive.

I'd also highly recommend that TWC seek wiki-mentorship. He has continued to show a lack of respect for the talk and user pages of others, as discussed here and here. Even though he has now promised not to do this again, I find it extremely troubling that he felt he needed to edit others' user pages in the first place. He doesn't seem to respect limits on his interactions with others, while at the same time making demands on us when we "offend" him in any way, including refactoring our comments.

Thanks for your consideration. - BilCat (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

For those that haven't followed the links, I had a very similar problem with TWC last month which Bbb23 (talk · contribs) brought to ANI as Ongoing harassment of administrator by editor after I had asked for help. We're seeing more than one repeat problem with TWC. Toddst1 (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

And which this harassment has continued. - BilCat (talk) 20:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment (Non-administrator comment) He certainly knows that the list violates WP: POLEMIC, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to hide it in the page history. Admiral Caius (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block

• Support indefinite block. In the previous ANI thread last month, I supported an indefinite block of TWC. His subsequent behavior is essentially along the same lines as the behavior that justified the block then. Again, he refactors other editors' talk pages for what he perceives as slurs (calling him a "child"). This discussion on The Bushranger's talk page sums it up nicely. He internalizes everything, he lets it fester, he does pretty much what he pleases to remedy the alleged horrible wrongs done to him, and he keeps track and/or plans his revenge (?) in his sandbox. Why he wasn't blocked in October eludes me, but apparently no administrator (who looked at it) felt there was a consensus for the block (not that one is required by policy).--Bbb23 (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

This wasn't using his nickname, it was calling him a child. Would you like to be called a child? I think his reaction was quite understandable. And no, a block is not justified here. Jonathunder (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't like it when waitresses call me "honey" at coffeeshops, but I don't think I'd mind someone saying I'm younger - even much younger - than I am. :-) But that's not the point. Let's assume it wasn't nice for x to call TWC a child on x's talk page. That doesn't give TWC the right to remove it, to label it a personal attack (which even in real life, let alone Misplaced Pages, it is not), and to warn the editor not to engage in personal attacks. In any event, that's just one factor among many in support of the block.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree, Bbb23 - "The Child" was an intentional slur. BilCat even admits to it above.--v/r - TP 21:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Sadly, support TWC reminds me of someone I know who has a serious addiction: when that friend is off the drug, they're a nice person - would bend over backwards for you, and can contribute to society. One taste of the devil's-tool-of-choice, and they're unmanageable, and I wouldn't let them in the same room as a divorce attorney (as much as I dislike divorce attorney's, I wouldn't wish my stoned friend upon them). Now, I'm not saying twc would bend over backwards for anyone (nor am I saying they're a druggie), but they continue to have zero fricking clue about this project. They continually accuse others of personal attacks where none have ever existed; they continue to pull bullshit moves that annoy and are also against policy, and they simply cannot get along nicely with others; period. Maybe this is an age thing - put an indef block, but insist that WP:OFFER be 1 year out...any appeals within one year will be automagically declined, so just lock their talkpage for a year. This individual has been a timesink on ANI and elsewhere for too long ES&L 00:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support with reluctance, with the caveat about being involved in the issue. After looking into the past behavior of this editor it's clear attempts to help them become a productive contributior simply aren't being listened to. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose As a completely uninvolved editor who has not interacted with almost everyone in this dispute I don't see anything coming close to sanctionable. The only incident that is recent is in response to Bilcat calling TWF as "the child". As far as I'm concerned such a statement is calling him a child and flies afoul of WP:NPA, and as such TWF is within guidelines at WP: TPG to edit the comment to remove the personal attack. What's more, his warning to Bilcat is in line with having received a Personal Attack and as such the claims of WP:IDHT by Bushranger regarding the talk page discussion just don't seem to fly. And finally the only diff by Toddst1 which is recent appears to be more of an intended noticeboard filing that TWF dropped. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • "his warning to Bilcat is in line with having received a Personal Attack" - except he didn't receive any personal attack, and my IDHT mention had nothing to do with the talk page discussion. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

And therein is where I disagree. I am constituting that Bilcat's re-writing of TWF's username as "The Child" as a personal attack against his character. And I'm not seeing any Diff's which correspond to WP:IDHT as such I can't support that assertion. In order for me to support an indef block I would first have to see a recent incident that is sanctionable on it's own merits coupled with a history that is related to what the person is being sanctioned for. --Kyohyi (talk) 16:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You oppose without knowledge of this editor's history? Toddst1 (talk) 20:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I oppose because you haven't put forth any recent activity that merit's sanctions. I put forth two criteria to support a indef block, the first criteria the recent activity is why we block, the second criteria the history determines how long. Without any recent activity you're just digging up old issues. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I think what you're seeing is a bunch of supports so far saying in effect the same thing: "In the context of all the previous bullshit, these recent issues are viewed in a different light and we're tired of it. The project would be better with out thewolfchild." It's not that the stuff with BilCat, Derekbridges or the sandboxes on its own would merit such a response, rather, for those who have followed the issue, these are all repeats of previous problems. Toddst1 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I see five diffs from you, 3 of which are older than the last ANI, one which is a link to the archive of the last ANI, and one which is about the recent personal attack. I am dismissing the 3 older ones because they are old, I see nothing wrong with linking the location of an ANI discussion, and finally it was a personal attack. There goes the original filing. If you're tired of bullshit, I recommend two things. One, stop looking for it. And two, stop throwing it. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed you have a total of 160 edits, 75% to talk. While everyone is welcome to comment at ANI, it definitely explains your context. Toddst1 (talk) 22:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You know it's usually a sign of a weak argument when they have to resort to commenting on the person and not what they say. I believe such arguments are called Ad Hominem. --Kyohyi (talk) 00:25, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Usually, but not always. Also, note that the edit where TWC re-factored BillCat's post occurred on my talk page from which TWC has be specifically requested to stay off here. - Nick Thorne 01:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Kyohyi, I wouldn't put too much stock in thewolfchild's seeming offense at being called "the child". If you look back through his lengthy history of arguments you can see that he has a long history of misusing the usernames of those who oppose him. In the last AN/I I pointed out that he had created a pun from User:Nick Thorne's name in a talkpage table calling him a prick (Get it? thorn - prick? Very droll.) Another clear example can be seen here (User:Calton's name was shortened to Cal and kept that way despite Calton's objections) It's an older example, but it's quite typical of thewolfchild's style. As far as recent examples of actionable offenses go, I direct your attention to the discussion at Talk:Amber Heard. Please keep in mind that this is a user who has been unblocked from an indef block on the condition that "any further violation of our policies/guidelines WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, and WP:BATTLEGROUND will likely result in a new indefinite block that cannot be appealed." -Thibbs (talk) 01:50, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Along with Bbb23, ESL and several others, I supported an indefinite block of TWC in the previous ANI thread last month. His subsequent behavior is essentially along the same lines as the behavior that justified the block then. So, in the context of all the previous bullshit, these recent issues called out above are viewed in a different light and at this point the project would be better with out thewolfchild. The release of the previous indefinite block came with a civility and WP:BATTLE parole. Since then, TWC has repeated numerous behaviors that have gotten him blocked previously and repeatly gets into petty harassment of other editors which clearly violates WP:BATTLE. It's time for this to stop. Toddst1 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It is time for this to stop, and I think that's within your control. Kyohyi has it right. Jonathunder (talk) 21:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef block per Bbb23 and ESL. Bedrieger (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support with the appropriate caveat that I have obviously been an involved editor. I note that TWC has also edited my talk page recently, despite being specifically requested to stay off it here. This editor's behaviour has been beyond the pale for far too long. I find myself reluctant to visit articles about one of my main areas of interest because of his contiued POV pushing and inability or unwillingness to understand that other editors not agreeing with him is not non-collegiate behavior and is also not a personal attack. I believe we do the project a disservice if we allow him to continue along his merry way. TWC consumes enormous amounts of talk page time and that, in and of itself, is highly disruptive. I agree with BB2 & ESL, the sanctions need to be of sufficiently long term as to send the message that disrupting the project is not tolerated. - Nick Thorne 01:39, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• Comment thewolfchild is quite clearly still engaged in the same old pattern of uncivil battleground behavior. As has been mentioned earlier, this current AN/I thread is the third complaint against thewolfchild for exactly the same thing. I am saddened to see that as few as 2 weeks after the last AN/I he got involved in a major fracas with User:Flyer22 and User:Kww at Talk:Amber Heard. Both of these users (neither of whom was involved in the prior AN/I) in fact commented in that engagement that thewolfchild was acting with exceptional combativeness. Did this cause even momentary self-reflection in thewolfchild? The talk page thread speaks for itself. I'm having difficulties squaring this behavior and the general administrative disinclination toward intervening with the warning from User:Amatulic (the admin who removed thewolfchild's indef block for aggressive editing) that "any further violation of our policies/guidelines WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, and WP:BATTLEGROUND will likely result in a new indefinite block that cannot be appealed." Were these just empty words? I understand that CIVIL is one of Misplaced Pages's weakest policies when it comes to editors who are capable of positive content creation, and I recognize that determining whether someone is a BATTLEGROUNDer requires rather an in-depth review of the editor's history of interactions with his peers, so I'd recommend that when this proposal fails someone should file an RfC/U. Thewolfchild is a habitual wikiwarrior and is very open about his belief that the indef block he received last year for being overly aggressive was invalid. An actual examination of his conduct at wikipedia at any point since he started editing here is enough to turn one's stomach. -Thibbs (talk) 01:44, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Conduct in Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 November 7

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi.

I checked every other noticeboard fineprints and this place looked the most appropriate. I have a couple of question, but first some context: The problem is that some comments in Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 November 7 are growing to unnecessarily hostile, to the point that ... well, here is what they look like: . These comments actually hurt. For instance, Niemti's unsolicited comment in a side discussion between me and The Bushranger, which I still struggle to fathom, looks retort-like and accusatory. What's make it worse is: This category and its discussions has already attracted the attention of my office. My colleagues read it together, discuss it and make mock readings of comments. They'll have a field day tomorrow. Hopefully, they don't know that I am this user name (although they'd be fired on the spot if caught telling any of these things to me or each other.)

The strange thing is Neimti and I worked together on Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children article and he was rather a pal. But in the last CfD for the same cat, somehow he interpreted our difference of POV as I having the same POV as him but lying. (Though he didn't explain what would I stand to gain by this lie.) Is it natural that friends become suddenly so hostile on Misplaced Pages? Or am I overreacting?

Overall, is there anything I can do?

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Geez, I never thought or told you I'm your friend, and I know nothing about your workplace drama. Anyway, you were calling yourself in third person "the nominator" (of the previous nomination), as in talking about someone else other than yourself, which is misleading or at least very odd. --Niemti (talk) 13:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, great, but any comment on the actual point of the discussion - your hostility? Sergecross73 msg me 15:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I am searching the word "nominator" and yes, I have used it once to refer to, why, the nominator. The nominator is "Justin (koavf)". Okay, what about it? Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Lisa, on your side of things, do you have anything more overt? Sadly, it doesn't seem like there's much as far as repercussions go when its minor civility infractions like this. Yes, he's got an attitude...but usually there's not much that is done unless it crosses over into personal attacks or accusations. This just looks like Niemti's typical rambling anger, that is enough to irritate people, but not enough to actually do anything against him. Sergecross73 msg me 15:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the most overt thing that I have is Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 October 2#Category:Video games featuring female protagonists. Look for a section titled "Misinformation in the nomination". It came along a talk page warning. He's been denying the assumption of good faith ever since, referring to it as misinformation, though others disputed it. But, I was hoping I can get here before things get overt, so I am a bit surprised: The fineprint doesn't say this place is for admin sanctions and blocks. I am a bit unfamiliar with this area of Misplaced Pages, so would you please put me wise? If this area is for admin sanctions what are Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee are for? And I am quite sure RFC-C and DRN don't apply to this case either. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Lisa, I understand the maze of fora can be difficult to navigate. The Arbcom is the absolute last resort when dealing with problematic users. In most cases, the community can deal with problems before reaching that stage. ANI is a place where "incidents" are brought to administrators' attention and where, if a flagrant violation of policy has been committed, they will sanction the user accordingly. Sometimes, this only happens after significant community input. (Non-administrators, such as myself, are free to comment, but the purpose of the board is to allow administrators to become aware of community concerns.) I think it is admirable that you want to prevent the recent friction between you two to become overtly hostile. However, ANI is not a good place for that, generally. The first step is to discuss it on the other user's talk page. --Jprg1966  17:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for nice message. Thanks for the the other nice message. And thanks for being nice in general. So, I understand that ANI is like a police station: One should try to avoid it, no matter if one is a crook or a plaintiff. That would make WP:LTA a circuit court and WP:ArbCom the supreme court. Well, I guess someone should write these in the fineprint.

So, I guess this topic can be closed. Am I free to close it or do it need to sign a paper or fill form or something? Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 18:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

That's kind of it. Maybe ANI is a police station (with a district court on the premises if necessary) and Arbcom is the supreme court, and LTA is more of a database of serial offenders. In any case, generally an admin or a nosy non-admin (yours truly) will close the thread for you if you withdraw your complaint. I would close it now, but I'll let the thread stay open for a little while in case other users would like to comment. Thank you for your patience. --Jprg1966  18:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Lisa: snide remarks are not fun. On their own however, they don't typically lead to any administrative sanction. Repeated incivility, even if it is not block-worthy, will inflict its own toll on the user by damaging their reputation for editing in a collaborative environment. My advice for now is to take the high road and continue editing. Niemti, meanwhile, should remember to focus on content, not the contributor. But personally, I don't see a need for administrative intervention at this point. --Jprg1966  15:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

May be both parties should stay cool and keep the tone down a bit, but it does not seem to me that this issue requires any attention from the administrators.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Not so sure: I wish I hadn't given my opinion, as it's led to snarky and unhelpful commemts from Niemti. - SchroCat (talk) 17:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Are these comments sufficient for administrator sanction? If so, can you provide diffs? --Jprg1966  17:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Niemti has been warned many many times, about civility issues. But he knows how to keep it just under what is unacceptable, so not much happens anymore. It's just what you get when you interact with him. Either snide remarks, or winding, angry rants. But he knows how to keep it just under anything actionable. Sad but true. Sergecross73 msg me 17:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that case with almost all interactions in the Video Game and Japanese cultural stuff as of late? And by stuff I'm being polite - its a kick to read these boards, but the situation here seems to be someone who reasonably doesn't like such incivility and someone who drips in it, but manages it so they don't get in trouble. There is the spirit and the letter of such things and purposely walking the line or extending it is not only problematic, but endemic. 209.255.230.32 (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Conflict of interest on Lee Roy Parnell

(Cross posted from WP:COIN) Luvwomercy (talk · contribs) has been making copyvio edits to Lee Roy Parnell, including the removal of any description of him as a "country" artist. This edit in particular, in which the edit summary is "Edited Intro paragraph at artist's request - does not want to be described here as a country artist", suggests that the user is in cahoots with Parnell, as is the fact that their user name is based off one of his songs. Most of their additions have been pure copyvio straight from his site, further suggesting a high COI. Ten Pound Hammer • 18:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

So, an artist has absolutely no say about information that's posted on Misplaced Pages? Yes, I WORK for him if that's "in cahoots". He simply doesn't want to be described as SOLELY a country artist. His bio, - posted under his direction, with his permission - mentions ALL of his works.

I didn't realize that this would be so difficult. He simply wants the page more up to date, with complete information. I don't update Misplaced Pages for a living and it's been a huge pain in the ass, to say the least. If a page can be published about someone, why should they have no say in what's posted there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luvwomercy (talk • contribs) 19:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

To answer your question, read WP:NOTADVOCATE, #5. Misplaced Pages is made up of information published elsewhere and is not a platform for self definition. I realize you probably weren't aware of some of these nuances, but perhaps you could use the talk page to suggest changes as our conflict of interest guidelines suggest rather than editing the article directly.

See Misplaced Pages:Contact us/Article problem/Factual error (from subject) for a general overview of ways Parnell can get problems fixed (as well as an email address). You can also mention specific problems on Talk: Lee Roy Parnell if you want specific mistakes corrected.

The email address is info-en-q@wikimedia.org. The first thing he'll likely be asked to do is to privately establish his identity. Toddst1 (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Lee Roy Parnell is not known for being a country artist? BS!! I've got a CD of his downstairs ... pretty darned country. And no, the artist themself really has no say ... reliable sources ... like, um, Billboard's country charts ... certainly do. If he's made charts in another format, prove it! If not, he's still better know for country ES&L 00:45, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

CD? OR! EEng (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

SPA now deleting/altering talk-page comments

The SPA account user:lightbreather, is now deleting and modifying comments on the AWB talk page. This SPA has been tendentiously editing the AWB page, almost exclusively, for many months now. Repeatedly arguing over a single word on the page "cosmetic". Although it dodged trouble itself, it was heavily involved in this edit war with a partner who was suspended. Almost immediately after that suspension, the SPA account attempted to bring several other editors here to ANI, an act which boomeranged as you can see here. The SPA was warned very sternly and (and quite unanymously by the editors here) to leave the AWB page alone for a while. The SPA left for 2 weeks and then returned and picked up where it left off. I have a low tolerance for WP:CRUSH behavior, and when the SPA removed and edited my talk page comments, I demanded that the editor return them to their previous states, as did other editors. When the editor refused, I left the AWB article completely, which is my response to such altercations. I have not returned, nor do I intend to. To date my comments remain erased/altered. My request: 1. I want my comments returned. 2. I would like an impartial group to review the actions of this SPA and determine if the slap on the wrist it received in ANI last time was effective. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) For those unfamiliar with this situation, AWB in this case refers to Federal Assault Weapons Ban and not the AutoWikiBrowser. I, JethroBT 21:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• The first thing I do when I review POV issues, is I try to determine what someone's POV is. I can't determine an obvious POV for Lightbreather, perhaps you can point to some of their POV edits? Their removing your talk page comments can and should be reverted, though.--v/r - TP 22:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

IMHO Lightbreathe went wiki-wild a few months ago, including knitting in a POV swing. And I locked horns with them back then. I recently suggested a fresh start and they agreed, and so far they appear to be doing that. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Beg most humbly to disagree. Lightbreather's troubles here at ANI were only 28 days ago. She took a Hiatus and then picked up exactly where she left off about a week ago. This was when she began altering and deleting talkpage conversations. The "fresh start" was proposed only yesterday, and already at least two editors question her sincerity. As one editor said: "Apparently the "fresh start" we are to have is to pretend that four months of discussion on this already settled matter no longer exists, so that we can flog it just a little bit more (translation: endlessly). No. This rises to a new level of disruption - not the immediate, crazy-making disruption of editor Saltyboatr a month ago, but instead disruption festering like a cancer. Here we are - four months later - talking about the word cosmetic, with the insistence that a settled matter isn't settled, because one editor says it's not settled. " Finally, the altared/deleted conversations have yet to be reverted by this SPA. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 00:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Sue, lightbreather is the proverbial "bad penny" that constantly undermines the hard work of others and previously arrived at consensus. That user is screaming for a topic ban.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Also agree with Sue, I don't edit the AWB page but I've been watching it from the sidelines for the last couple months and Lightbreather has done nothing but stall progress with tendentious edits. The deleted comments should be restored, and the editor should probably be topic banned. ROG5728 (talk) 02:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd oppose a topic ban without some serious evidence. I see it too often that editors pile on here saying a particular user is disruptive and want a topic ban w/o evidence and the truth of the matter is that the user simply has a different POV than the crowd. Not flowing with the crowd is not a crime on Misplaced Pages. Disruption is though. So please provide evidence of actual disruption and not anecdotal evidence that equates to "she makes me mad." 'Stalling progress' is not disruptive, imho, if progress is going in the wrong direction. Since that is a subjective measure, I tend to just say that stalling progress is not admissible. If you have an RFC and they are editing in violation of it, that's one thing. But using a talk page to address an issue, even tendentiously, is not disruptive by itself.--v/r - TP 02:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Deleting or altering other editors' talk page comments without a good reason is clearly disruptive, and the user's editing behavior in general hasn't been much better. ROG5728 (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that this happened months ago, am I wrong?--v/r - TP 02:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I have shut down my computer for the evening and am making this brief reply by phone. Will answer any and all questions tomorrow. If others will give DIFFS I will drop everything I'm working on to respond to each. Lightbreather (talk) 03:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Sue, I don't see it either, and I went back 100 edits in that talk page. Drmies (talk) 04:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Here are a few examples:

• 20:12, 1 November 2013
• 20:17, 1 November 2013
• 20:19, 1 November 2013

Hamitr (talk) 04:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You're hurting your own case. Calling another editor a vandal without diffs is a personal attack. Lightbreather has every right to redact Sue's comments. Good faith edits, whether they break stuff or remove sources or anything, are never vandalism. What you've just uncovered is Sue's bad behavior and you may have just opened up Sue to a WP:BOOMERANG.--v/r - TP 14:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it was inappropriate for editor suerangell to repeatedly refer to editor lightbreather as a vandal. And indeed, editor lightbreather had "every right" to redact sue's comments. And as with every right, comes responsibility. As WP:TPO says, "Editing—or even removing—others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection.". Part of the responsibility means dealing with the fallout that may follow. This is part of that fallout. As I pointed out below, editor lightbreather linked back to the comments in response to the ensuing discussion. I contend that if the comments were so damaging they required excision, then its rather, well, silly to link right back to them. It's damnably rare that removing another editors comments will be met with quiet accedence (with the exception of actual vandalism, spam, or off-topic chit chat). Anastrophe (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I understood you correctly. Are you saying that when Editor A makes a bad comment about Editor B, and Editor B removes that, that if Editor B links to it in an administrative discussion as evidence about Editor A's misconduct, that Editor B must not find it that bad? That doesn't make sense at all. You'd essentially be saying that editors are not allowed to provide diffs of misconduct because the action of providing the diffs means that it wasn't really that bad.--v/r - TP 16:45, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I was referring to editor Lightbreather linking back to the comments in the ensuing discussion on the article talk page. Anastrophe (talk) 16:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

while I think lightbreather may have a case of WP:ICANTHEARYOU the behavior in general has been an improvement over the past. I am not aware of any talk page removals, but I haven't been watching the diffs super closely. Its very frustrating and verging on WP:DE to still be dealing with the word "cosmetic" which is really well sourced (although there is always room for possible improvement as our current discussion indicates) - but absent some evidentiary diffs, I do not think the disruption extends to requiring administrative action at this time.Gaijin42 (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

On October 3 ago Lightbreather asked at the Teahouse for a mentor, and I told her I would be happy to be her mentor. Lightbreather is not an "it". SueRangell knows that Lightbreather is a she and a grandmother. Lightbreather has asked on multiple occasions not to be referred to by negative acronyms such as SPA. That seems to me a very reasonable request.

I know that a difficult consensus was reached on a controversial use of the word cosmetic, but I would suggest that the editors reaching consensus do not represent the full array of opinions on the complex question of an assault weapons ban. For example, if you read an interview with Diane Feinstein (Daily News, 13 April 2013)

They claimed the bans were based merely on cosmetic features even though every law enforcement officer who testified on the bill agreed that these features are not cosmetic, but instead add directly to the lethality of the weapons.

and then looked up the federal assault weapon ban on Misplaced Pages, you would see that the very first sentence of the section immediately following the lead paragraph reads:

Within the context of this law, the term assault weapon refers primarily to semi-automatic firearms that possess certain cosmetic features of an assault rifle that is fully automatic.

You might think that Misplaced Pages was being less that even-handed. Given the number of times that paragraph is cut and pasted onto conservative blogs, some may even think Misplaced Pages supports a particular position. (They never credit Misplaced Pages however.)

I suggested that the word be moved out of the first sentence of the section and introduced lower down in the section with more explanation. See Talk:Federal Assault Weapons Ban#Comment on "cosmetic". It's a judgment, not a description, and doesn’t belong in an opening sentence like that. It should be introduced with a discussion of all the ways it is used. I would like to see the section changed because I think its un-encyclopedic to write the article that way. Lightbreather would like to see it change because it is really is controversial to present the topic that way, no matter how many quotes one can find. It’s a topic she cares very deeply about. StarryGrandma (talk) 05:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

"car very deeply about" a topic isn't a rationale. Are we to understand that this editor cares more than other editors? Therefore this editor's concerns carry more weight? No. In fact, the only reason this issue of cosmetic is an issue is because one editor is driving it and creating a controversy about it where none exists (in terms of reliable sources, which is what we build the encyclopedia on). This has been discussed endlessly on the talk page, and so I have to ask directly (since I've suggested tangentially before) - have you, editor StarryGrandma, read all of the archived discussion of the last four months? If not, I suggest that you are being manipulated by the editor in question. It is, in fact, a settled matter - here, nine years later - that the features banned by the bill were cosmetic. You've been enlisted to carry forward this editor's torch - the seeds of doubt have been sewn sufficiently that you're now arguing in this editor's stead. There was no difficulty in consensus on the talk page - it was overwhelming. Unless we count "civil" but relentless forced discussion to be the difficulty, in which case yes, it was difficult, dealing with a single editor who will not WP:HEAR. I've been accused of being uncivil, and sometimes I do dance around the margins, but largely I am just extremely blunt, and that's what I've presented above. You are being manipulated. I've made "pro-control" edits and "pro-rights" edits in numerous articles on wikipedia. What matters to me are the reliable sources, always. The sources are what speak. The sources are the 'law'. The sources are what separate wikipedia from just another blog. We have the sources, they are clear. We also have a law that expired nine years ago, and nothing about the law or the commentary written about it before during or after has changed, nor has the perception of its effectiveness or lack thereof changed. "I don't see that the article overall has problems with point of view. The positioning of some information may be awkward and lead to undue emphasis on it.". Those were your words. Has your opinion changed, after discussion with the editor in question? Have you discussed the article with any other editors besides the editor in question? Anastrophe (talk) 06:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This also needs to be addressed: "Lightbreather is not an "it". SueRangell knows that Lightbreather is a she and a grandmother.". I cannot speak for editor SueRangell, but I can speak from experience that the editor in question complains bitterly any time an editor addresses "it" in personal terms, whether it be "she" or "you" or "her" or simply an unembellished first person "Lightbreather". I cannot speak for other editors, but I am forced to refer to the editor in question either in the third person or indirectly, as I am weary of being scolded for speaking colloquially. It is also important to bear in mind that wikipedia is entirely anonymous. An editor may present themselves in any manner they choose - or choose not to present themselves at all. We have no way of verifying who editors are in reality - nor should it make any difference whatsoever who they are. Perhaps I'm a grandfather - and I also care very deeply about these issues. Is the fact (or so I choose to lead you to believe) that I am male, a grandfather, and care deeply about these issues actually relevant to the construction of this encyclopedia? No. Who we are is irrelevant to the construction of this encyclopedia. The quality of our writing (and not the CV behind it) and the quality of the sources are what matter. Period. Anastrophe (talk) 06:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the substantive issue at hand. The editor in question removed the comments with the summary "Removing harmful posts per WP:TPO, WP:WIAPA accusations about and criticisms of". The argument that the comments were so harmful that they demanded excision falls apart when the editor in question links back to them in the ensuing discussion of same. Removal of other editor's comments is generally considered a foul act in and of itself, unless we're talking about blathering discussion that belongs elsewhere (such as belong on the countless chat forums around the web) or simple spam or vandalism. Since nothing is ever truly deleted anywhere on wikipedia, it's an act that rarely accomplishes more than seeding unnecessary aggravation, and fostering discussion that has nothing to do with the article - thus, deleting talk page comments is an act that's destined to cause more harm than the comments that were deleted. As to the other issues, as far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as a "fresh start" while we're in the midst, again, of "discussing" whether the word cosmetic is reliably sourced (it is), is NPOV (it is), is appropriate (it is), is appropriate at the beginning of the section (it is), whether cosmetic really means cosmetic (yes it does, to both pro-rights and pro-control factions, per the sources), whether the pro-control sources use cosmetic to really, really, no seriously really mean, you know, cosmetic for absolutely certain and for sure? (they do). An absurd amount of 'ink' has been spilt "discussing" this on the talk page - but as I said before, here we are, again, four months later, going into the finer details of all of the above. The intent seems to be to just wear down other editors until one by one they exit in disgust. I'm about at that point. I opposed the previous ANI calling for sanctions, and I generally don't even participate in these things. I'm now wavering, for the reasons above. I simply do not see this situation improving, and I for one will drink hemlock if I find myself arguing about the word cosmetic in 2014. Anastrophe (talk) 06:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

If lightbreather doesn't want to be considered an SPA, they should edit different articles so that that description is no longer accurate. If one hasn't noticed, we ALL care deeply about this topic, so that is really a moot point. However, (content dispute digression) the "cosmetic" side has numerous reliable sources, and the "not cosmetic" side has a few self published advocacy groups statements. Certainly a content dispute is not an issue for ANI, but Lightbreather's constant refusal to abide consensus, and work collaboratively instead of taking every disagreement as a personal attack is disruption, and that certainly may be a matter for this board. If she thinks the local consensus is not sufficient, she should start an RFC, except there was ALREADY an RFC on this exact topic, and she is trying to overturn its consensus. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban/Archive_2#RfC:_Is_inclusion_of_the_word_.22cosmetic.22_in_the_Criteria_section_appropriate.3F

Here is the RFC Talk:Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban/Archive_2#RfC:_Is_inclusion_of_the_word_.22cosmetic.22_in_the_Criteria_section_appropriate.3F, on this exact issue, 3 months ago, where Lightbreather was making the exact same arguments they are making now, and from that time they have provided no additional sources to defend their point of view, no novel arguments, just rehashing the same issue into the ground. Or the discussion from 2004 (prior to Lightbreather?) Or this one from 10 months ago which included lightbreather or this one from last month, ultimately resulting in the topic ban of SaltyBoatr. or one of the OTHER many discussions we have had on THIS EXACT TOPIC for the past year and longer? WP:ICANTHEARYOU Gaijin42 (talk) 15:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The way I read it Lightbreather is no longer seeking to remove the cosmetic characterization, and instead wants to add a sentence that it is disputed by some. The sourcing for the latter is basically picking three instance where someone has made that assertion, and two of the three I'd consider "F" grade as sources. So they're not secondary, and they're not even primary for the statement. Normally I'd complain wp:or/wp:synth, but to me it's a "sky is blue' statement that some people object to the term and personally I don't get tough on sourcing for sky-is-blue statements. So then it is a quesiton of wp:weight/wp:undue under wp:npov. I'm on the fence on that one. More to come. North8000 (talk) 15:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree with your characterization on both fronts. It definitely is a WP:WEIGHT issue we have 10-20 (with Im sure more to be found if we are forced to spend the time) quality sources all discussing the cosmetic angle, from all different POVs, different fields of study, primary, secondary, tertiary, academic, political, media, etc vs self avowed anti-gun groups saying "we disagree". Gaijin42 (talk) 16:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Either way, that's a content issue and not a conduct issue. Which means it doesn't belong on ANI. As far as the conduct issues above, I believe that Lightbreather acted appropriately and it is Sue Rangell who behaved inappropriately for repeatedly calling this user a vandal. Sue's comment were appropriately redacted. So I think this thread can be closed unless someone wants to discuss Sue's behavior further.--v/r - TP 16:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I guess the relevance of my post is that in recent days Lightbreather "backed off" a notch on the "cosmetic" issue. Based on past history I think that folks do not trust her, that she might start another sophisticated relentless POV shifting push. But the last few days have been an offered and accepted "fresh start" during which time she has not violated norms. And so the concerns expressed by others should be acknowledged as legitimate and founded, but that the possibilities are good that a truly fresh start has happened and she should be given a chance while we all go into a "wait and see" mode. And possibly Lightbreather should de-intensify their involvement at the article a bit and have some editing fun at some unrelated less controversial articles.North8000 (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It makes me nervous to reply here, but I'm afraid that silence might be interpreted as proof of guilt. If my reply is too short, perhaps some will think it curt or snarky. If I make it too long it may seem overly argumentative. This is my life on the Misplaced Pages assault weapons ban talk page.

That said, I see zero DIFFs from Sue_Rangell, North8000, Mike_Searson, ROG5728, Anastrophe, and Gaijin42. Sue did provide the link to the discussion I started on ANI about possible ownership issues. (That discussion includes one of my attempts to end the SPA accusations, which I am asking again, now, to stop.) Editor Hamitr provided the links to when I deleted Sue's accusations about intentional vandalism and misinformation. I already presented my defense of those here.

There are so many generalizations and exaggerations about me above that I would like to address, but I will simply close by saying that I have not tried to remove "cosmetic" from the criteria section since that discussion was closed over two months ago. My recent effort - in response to a discussion started by another editor, not me - has been to restore a single, sourced sentence that not all agree with use of the term. It was added to the article via BRD on Sept. 27, but was lost in a rollback. We were "this close" to restoring it when this ANI came up. (The sources - the Violence Policy Center (VPC), the then-president of the International Assoc. of Chiefs of Police, and a PBS NewHour interview with the NRA's Wayne LaPierre and a Seattle police chief - may be biased, but they are reliable and verifiable.)

Again, if anyone has DIFFs, I will drop what I'm doing and respond, but I hope we can just go back to improving the article and discussing content, not ME. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You repeatedly ask to stop being called SPA, but it is not an insult. You edit only on one topic (and really only on one article) that is the very definition of WP:SPA Single Purpose Account. Since you are calling me out for not providing evidence, basically EVERY edit you have made on this topic since the RFC is a WP:HEARing issue. You fail to correctly interpret what WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT means. All of the items you just posted are from self published primary sources. We do not doubt that those people said what they said, but that holds very little weight compared to the 20 or so newspaper, books, and academic articles. So yes, some people disagree. Some people also think the world is flat, but we don't talk about their opinions in the Globe article. If we had an entire section dedicated to the cosmetic issue, we could give that minority viewpoint a sentence, but we don't. We have one sentence saying that the features are described as cosmetic. The self published primary sources do not get equal weight to that. (Yes I proposed such a sentence in the article talk, but upon further reflection it runs too far afoul of WP:UNDUE. Adding that entire section will lead down a nasty path of WP:POV as it would really have to be a "peoples opinions about the law" section. There is a consensus. You don't like it. Learn to deal with that. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Calling someone a WP:SPA is a personal attack when the title is used as a pejorative. Calling me a 'guy' could be a personal attack in the right context. ie. If I were editing an article on feminist issues and someone say "Well, of course he'd say that, he's a guy". That'd be a personal attack. It matters on the intentions on the person using it and not on the specific definition itself. Is it a fact that he's a SPA, it could be. Does that mean consistently pointing it out is acceptable? No. Especially if it's used as an ad hominem (argument about a person's traits, instead of their central point).--v/r - TP 01:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

word count is an arbitrary metric where ink and paper price is

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I edited the plot summary for "No Country for Old Men" because the old summary made little sense and did not describe the movie that I saw. Revisions were undone because of a 'word count' guideline. This is a ridiculous metric and it's inclusion seriously hampers the preceding 'plot summary'. I wrote a workable summary that accurately describes the film without regard to 'word count' so it should remain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petrsw (talk • contribs) 20:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's policy is, "Misplaced Pages treats fiction in an encyclopedic manner, discussing the reception and significance of notable works in addition to a concise summary." I find 700 words more than sufficient for "a concise summary"; most pieces about the film do not get that level of detail. There is flexibility provided for especially complex films, but I do not find that to be the case for No Country for Old Men. Erik (talk | contribs) 21:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This should be closed. As things stand this is it is not an AN/I matter and there is nothing for an admin to do at the present time. The film project has had numerous discussions about the plot length for our articles and the current consensus has been maintained through subsequent discussions. Petrsw (talk · contribs) has been edit warring at the No Country for Old Men (film) article and then went and tried to change the MOS for film to fit their needs. It needs to be noted that Petrsw has not tried to discuss the situation at the talk page for the film or at the talk pages for the Film project or its MOS. I would suggest that P start discussions at the appropriate venues rather than running to this board. MarnetteD | Talk 21:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I concur with Marnette about closing this, since a guideline doesn't come under editorial conduct. Regardless of whether a project has good or bad guidelines, the appropriate response is to raise concerns at the project itself for discussion if you have a problem with them; alternatively you have the option of initiating an RFC at the article to bypass a guideline. Betty Logan (talk) 21:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

BLP violation in upcoming DYK

Can someone who knows how DYK works please remove the Murder of Ayakannu Marithamuthu DYK from the list of upcoming DYKs as a matter of urgency. It is asserting as a fact matters which have never been determined in court, and the persons accused of carrying out the alleged murder have never been convicted - a clear violation of WP:BLP policy. Please note in particular that the article makes clear that Marithamuthu's body has never been found, and the claim that he was cut up and cooked into a curry (the DYK hook) is nothing more than an allegation, albeit one supposedly made by one of the suspects. Frankly, I'm appalled that a flagrant BLP violation like this should ever have been proposed as a DYK. Do people not even read articles before proposing them? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, the article was nominated by its author. @Bonkers The Clown:: any comments to offer us here? Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 00:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Obviously the BLP violations in the article need addressing, though I've removed the worst of them (I don't have access to all the sources, so can't check it completely). For now though, I'm more concerned about us not posting a BLP violation on the main page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You mean this Bonkers the clown???? ES&L 00:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

There is only one. Though I suspect that we may well conclude after this that one is one too many... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I missed the unblock. Conditions are laid out here, User_talk:Bonkers_The_Clown/Archive_5#Blocked. Drmies (talk) 04:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this article would directly breach the unblock conditions - but that is rather beside the point. Bonkers has not only grossly violated WP:BLP policy, but gone on to nominate the policy-violating article for inclusion on the front page, in a highly sensationalist manner. It strikes me that this is exactly the same sort of behaviour that led to the previous block. It seems to me that Bonkers simply cannot be trusted to contribute - s/he is evidently more concerned with tabloid sensationalism and controversy than with contributing objective and encyclopaedic content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It looks like Bonkers has changed his MO in an attempt to prolong his Wiki-career; previously trolling, now breaching BLP. Sigh. If I had more time I'd take this to ANI with a suggestion for an indef. GiantSnowman 14:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello, this is ANI :) :) After observing Bonkers for quite some time at DYK, and interacting with him a few times, my theory is that he is not at all a child at play on Misplaced Pages (as I've seen others say), but that he does this sort of thing intentionally to highlight the systemic problems at DYK. Why is no one commenting on that aspect? Template:Did you know nominations/Murder of Ayakannu Marithamuthu Why was this hook approved? (Quid pro quo reviewing, and absolutely no sense of what is a reliable source or of our BLP policy at DYK.) This happens all the time: on the talk page at DYK still is an example I put up only a few days ago. Why do admins routinely pass hooks like this to the main page? (No accountability at any level of DYK). And why has User:Mindmatrix, who passed this hook, not been notified of this issue so he can improve his reviewing? (Oh gee, lookie there, I went over to see if he had been notified, and found a brilliant example of the problems with quid pro quo reviewing: an editor saying, I passed yours, will you pass mine?) My hunch has always been that Bonkers does this outrageous stuff to call attention to how deficient the DYK process is, and something needs to be done about that, because this is not an isolated incident. Faulty sourcing, faulty medical hooks, and BLP vios have long been occurring at DYK. Yea Bonkers for pointing out how bad that process is and why it should be removed from the mainpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: d'oh! - I'm an idiot. Was looking at the thread at BLPN at the same time and got them mixed up. GiantSnowman 18:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Mea culpa for failing to notice the BLP issue. I'm usually more thorough that this when I review DYK nominations. Regarding the comment on my talk page requesting that I promote a hook, I haven't accepted. Frankly, I'd prefer that the set of DYK article writers and nominators be entirely distinct from the set of reviewers, but that's not likely to happen, and wouldn't necessarily fix the problem anyway. Mindmatrix 15:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yea Bonkers for disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. Because if your assertion is true that's exactly what it is. Nice to know that violating policy is not just OK it wins praise when it's tilting at someone's favorite windmill. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, you got me there. But to the pointy point ... can we not do something about the underlying problem? It was not my intent to praise Bonkers (I had to clean up quite a few of his DYKs), and I'm sorry I did that. But I still think the bigger problem should be addressed, and I think his numerous DYK noms that have been pushed up the line for a very long time now served a purpose, which DYK regulars aren't hearing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

No worries; I might have overreacted a bit myself, trying to reset my sleep cycle can make me cranky. I do agree that there needs to be some poking with sharp sticks in some directions, the catch is that (even if there is recalcitrance) it needs to be done in a way that doesn't drive people away from the discussion, that is the tricky part. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK review

It seems to me that there is an additional issue here - the DYK proposal was reviewed by another contributor, User:Mindmatrix, who seems to have entirely missed the BLP implications of asserting allegations as fact - in particular, asserting as fact the very allegation that formed the basis for the hook. I'm reluctant to drag Mindmatrix over the coals for this, as frankly I don't see this lack of attention to detail as unusual regarding DYK's, and I think the error is symptomatic of the whole DYK process, which seems more concerned with competition between contributors, and with filling the main page with random questionable factoids than with actually providing our readers with encyclopaedic information. Having said this, Mindmatrix should probably at least explain how the obvious WP:BLP issues with the hook came to be missed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

(after ec) Oops, see my similar post in the section above--- we edit conflicted. The problem is not Mindmatrix-- the problem is the process (which by the way, although I've been saying for years they should notify reviewers when faulty hooks are promoted up the line, and asking they get a template for doing so-- they won't). Also see my post above for the problem with quid pro quo reviewing-- you pass mine, I'll pass yours, and a big problem with the reward culture in things like WP:WIKICUP. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I should be held responsible. I missed the issue in my review, which is surprising since it was a blatantly obvious violation. Mindmatrix 15:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the acknowledgement, Mindmatrix (and good on you), but yours is not a typical DYKer reaction to these sorts of issues. So, something still needs to be done about the wider problem. Based on your appropriate response here, it doesn't look like you are likely to continue to be a part of that problem, but it has been a problem for at least the six years I've been following, and when pointed out, very few react as you have. There is no accountability at DYK, quid pro quo reviewing needs to stop, and if DYK then can't handle the volume, they need to find a way to slow down the process so that they can. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Back-scratching reviews are generally one of the only effective ways to get DYKs reviewed at all. But I think Sandy is right, the over-assumption of good faith is more harmful at DYK than elsewhere where the main page is concerned.--v/r - TP 16:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK is different from other mainpage highlights in having a take-all-comers atmosphere. There is no requirement as things are currently done that a hook be entertaining or interesting, or that an article be high-quality, interesting, or well-written. DYKs are passed by ticking a set of quite loose boxes - does the hook have a cite? is the article long enough? does the hook use an asterisk? - and generally it would be frowned on for a reviewer to impose a quality requirement on either article or hook. As a result, the process is more along the lines of "tick these boxes; if boxes ticked, DYK automatically passes" (which is probably why it's felt that uninformed reviewers are good enough; if you don't have to do anything but check prose length and check for a next to the hook sentence, you don't need to be all that familiar with DYK or even Misplaced Pages policy to do the review).

If, on the other hand, there was a requirement, even a vague one, that DYK hooks be, well, something that "hooks" readers, or if DYK allowed reviewers to use their discretion in accepting and rejecting DYKs for article or hook quality, I suspect we'd have both far less trouble with an overwhelming traffic flow into the DYK review queue, and far fewer passed-by-rote DYK that turn out to be problematic. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Not quite. The DYK "rules" are at WP:WIADYK. See No. 4, Within policy; DYKs have to conform to core policies. Those are rarely checked, many quid pro quo reviewers don't even know core policies (including one freshly minted admin who recently put a BLP vio on the DYK mainpage), and in the instances when I have checked them, I've been attacked by various and sundry DYK 'regulars'. I do not know where the notion that DYKs don't have to conform to core policies comes from: it is clearly stated in the rules. DYK instituted quid pro quo reviewing because it could not keep up with the volume there. So, reduce the volume already, by removing the notion that any new or newly expanded article is automatically entitled to a mainpage appearance, and do something to encourage compliance and accountability. Many of Misplaced Pages's serial copyvio offenders and serial misunderstanders of reliable sources have been fed by this process. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not disagreeing with that, Sandy. Actually, I think you and I are mostly agreeing as far as raising the DYK bar. My point is that there's a vast gulf between "skates past the line of policy" and "this is a well-done, interesting article that should appear on the main page," and as long as reviewers and creators have the impression that if you can eke out "this meets the most basic level of policy and box ticking" then an article is entitled to a DYK appearance, we can do very little about low-quality articles or hooks getting passed, because reviewers are led to believe they have little choice but to pass every article. That's not to say that, say, copyvio issues, which are covered by the current guidelines, are not also being let slip right now; it's just to say that raising the whole bar and removing the sense of articles being entitled to DYK appearances might improve both policy compliance and article/hook quality. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) In my opinion, one of the major problems with DYK is that some reviewers don't seem to bother inspecting the supplied sources or assessing their quality. Many reviews appear to be one-sentence approvals that give no indication the reviewer has done a careful inspection of the material. Despite always carefully checking the sources (and sometimes searching for other sources), I've still missed the occasional obvious flaw, with this case being an unfortunate example. Even attentive reviewers make mistakes, which is why DYK should implement a more rigorous review process. Aside: I don't object to the quid pro quo requirement, but I do object to the circular quid pro quo reviews that it seems to have engendered for some DYK article authors and nominators. Mindmatrix 18:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Attention urgently needed-Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre

Things grow worse. The WP community has responded disappointingly slowly to an appeal for help in fending off an attack on the well-established, authoritative and important article about the U.S. Army’s killing of refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950. An earlier appeal bore a link to a bill of particulars about the depredations by one "WeldNeck," a U.S. Army partisan who has made an incredible 79 edits deleting crucial facts and stuffing the article with untruths and irrelevant smokescreens in order to whitewash the events. But NOW a username-less attacker from the U.S. Army Intelligence Center at Fort Huachuca, a “contributor” who has been repeatedly and repeatedly cited for vandalism and recklessness at many pages, has begun hacking away at the facts of the No Gun Ri Massacre. Surely some speedy action can be taken to protect this article and deal with these obvious POV intervenors. Who will help? Thank you. Charles J. Hanley 22:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk • contribs)

Editors making changes that Cjhanley doesnt agree with does not constitute an emergency. And I agree, my edits were incredible. WeldNeck (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Cjhanley, who arguably has a COI with respect to this article, has been forum-shopping this issue in multiple places. I see nothing "urgent" here. The IP's edits have been removed. There hasn't even been enough of them to warrant page protection, although considering the IP's history, a block might be warranted. As for WeldNeck, if Cjhanley thinks this is something more than a content dispute, then he needs to provide far more evidence of misconduct than he has.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
• Well, I don't know about that, WeldNeck--"An explanation to why the refugee column was strafed was never confirmed by investigators" isn't very good English. In fact, it's bad English. I also see POV and MOS violations in your November edits, so I wouldn't pound my own chest too hard. The IP's edits are clearly indicative of POV editing (though, Cjhanely, you would do well to head this off at the pass by supplying a reference), and I'll leave an additional note on their talk page before I peruse the rest of their edits.

  Cjhanley, your problems with WeldNeck can't easily be dealt with in this forum; WP:DR or WP:3O might be better suited, and talk page discussion of course. Now, that talk page is kind of fun, if you don't feel inclined to actually read it. Accusations of POV, socking, etc abound, and there doesn't seem to be a critical mass of uninvolved editors that can help the thing along. Anyway, I think I've done about as much as I can do as an administrator. The IP hasn't done enough damage to warrant a block or semi-protection, so until then there's nothing to do. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Pounding my chest ... ha ha ... I am being sarcastic. I agree my English sucks at times. Need to work on that. WeldNeck (talk) 02:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I get paid handsomely to mess with people's writing. I'm sure we can come to some agreement. Bbb made a good point about Cjhanley's forum shopping--really, what this article needs is more uninvolved editors who can study the sources and perhaps smooth the waters. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Drmies. You’re correct, of course, that additional objective – and perceptive – editors are needed, neither victims’ representatives nor U.S. military reps. And, for the record, please understand that the facts of the No Gun Ri Massacre have been under attack for more than a decade from institutions and members of the U.S. military. That’s what’s happening in this case, as would be clear to anyone studying the serious damage WeldNeck has been doing, including his reverts of efforts to correct that damage, and Tuesday’s outrageous attack from the U.S. Army’s Fort Huachuca.

But where are those editors? When they don’t materialize, and when a contributor like WeldNeck repeatedly flouts the “good faith” principles of WP, shouldn’t the WP hierarchy step in, familiarize itself with what’s going on and take some action? After all, this is not some bio of an obscure Victorian architect or feature on a subspecies of warblers. This is a big deal, a major 20th-century war crime, and the WP article on it is being openly transformed into a falsehood-packed apologia for the crime (as well as a bloated, increasingly incoherent mess as WeldNeck dumps irrelevant and often false material into it). I appreciate your suggestion about trying other avenues for help but, frankly, it’s getting tiresome being sent from pillar to post by admins (from Edit Warring to ANI to NPOV and back again). At this point, even a caution to WeldNeck to “play nice” and accept facts and falsehoods for what they are when they’re incontrovertibly presented to him would be welcome. Thanks again. (By the way, you noted in your comment above a need for a particular bit of sourcing; that fact is, indeed, sourced higher in the article, or at least was before WeldNeck began wreaking his havoc. But the reference can be repeated.) Charles J. Hanley 16:05, 13 November 2013 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk • contribs)

• Repeating that reference is a good idea. Where to find those editors? Perhaps in the Misplaced Pages MILHIST project. An IP attack like the one you signaled, I'm not so worried about that--I've seen that in the Fort Benning related articles and it's nothing we can't handle. But you and WeldNeck, if you two were slightly less antagonistic toward each other (I'm not saying anything about who's right and wrong here) you could probably work it out. Maybe. Drmies (talk) 18:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

WikiEditor2563 and Colonization of Mars

I have been discussing WikiEditor2563 (talk · contribs)'s recent edits of Colonization of Mars at his talk page. WikiEditor2563 has removed sources and introduced a bunch of opinions and original research, as well as introducing the same exact opening paragraph several times (this being the latest example). This is a content dispute that could be worked out on talk pages, but on WikiEditor2563's talk page he has called me and the other editors trying to work with him 'Misplaced Pages Gestapo',(diff) 'morons', and a 'minion' of Robert Zubrin (who is apparently a Mars exploration advocate). He also accused me of being "hustled by NASA and the science writers" for daring to suggest that he include sources in his edits. (Here, wow).

This editors has been previously warned about edit warring and personal attacks, by me and Andyjsmith (talk · contribs), as well as other editors for his unrelated edits to Résumé. WikiEditor2563 has blanked those warnings here and here, and has explained on his talk that he doesn't consider them valid. I could play revert-tag with him, but he's made it clear that he is '1000% confident in his edits' and will just keep putting his content back without any meaningful discussion. After being insulted like that I figured this might warrant administrator involvement. If this would be better filed at WP:AN/EW I apologize, but the personal attacks seemed more troubling. Grayfell (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Not that this necesssarily will keep WikiEditor2563 from receiving sanctions, but it seems s/he is quite new to editing. They have only 72 edits to their name so far. Has the critical importance of civility in dispute resolution been expressed to him/her, and the distinction between commenting on content instead of contributors? WikiEditor2563 (talk) 21:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC) This helps shape the context of their remarks and what the way forward should be. --Jprg1966  06:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I have made the point about civility on the editor's talk page, where s/he was also given a lvl 3 edit-warring warning template by someone else. It looks like others have also brought it up at Talk:Résumé, where the editors has ignored requests to remove or strike out personal attacks ("Misplaced Pages gestapo" again). I have not brought up the content/contributors distinction. Grayfell (talk) 07:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

(e.c.) ::Grayfell stressed the importance of civility on WikiEditor2563's talk page yesterday (and did so eloquently). I'm commenting here because I watch Resume and was dismayed at the user's attempts to edit-war OR content into the article and doubly dismayed at his or her refusal to listen to what more experienced users have said on the talk page of that article. Three of us—Bonadea, Barek, and I—have said variations on the same thing: that the content violates basic content policies, and we've explained it adequately and provided links. For our pains, we've been called arrogant and illiterate and have been shouted at and termed "morons" and "dogs out of a cage". Even my gentle, non-template caution about edit warring was removed. I don't really see at this point what else we can do in the way of explanations. If the user seemed the slightest bit open to becoming acquainted with Misplaced Pages policies—both content and behavioral—I'd be all for cutting further slack, but I'm not seeing any openness at all. Rivertorch (talk) 07:31, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree that this editor is "new to editing". He's been messing around with the Mars article for most of the year and has been involved in huge discussions about the error of his ways, but to no avail. Incidentally, when reading his talk page pay close attention to the history - the page has been heavily redacted and that has confused the discussion threads. I'm not too concerned about the insults as such but rather what they imply. What I see, with all the warring and the shouting, is someone with a sense of ownership and absolutely no interest in working collaboratively. I've reached the stage of not trusting any of his edits even when they seem to be factual because he simply won't provide sources - he believes that his unsupported opinion is sufficient. This is an untrustworthy and disputatious editor who has no place on Misplaced Pages. andy (talk) 08:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Wow, just looking at this users edits shows me that he is lacking a massive amount of clue. I have some serious doubts that mentorship would do anything to change that. Admiral Caius (talk) 15:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that he lacks clue. There needs to be a change of attitude, because right now it's a very BATTLEGROUND mentality. But he deserves to at least hear how he can contribute positively, though, IMHO. If he still refuses to get the point, then we can talk about whether he is HERE for constructive purposes or not. A polite articulation of his expectations as an editor and how he specifically can contribute may defuse some tension ... or not, but it's worth seeing, I think. --Jprg1966  16:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

IMHO he's had it abundantly explained to him how he can contribute positively, particularly by Grayfell. His response is "I am an expert", "Sourced, informed, what's the difference" and "Advice given by an expert, quite frankly, is better than a non-expert adding some random tidbit of information completely out of context". He's also not as much of an expert as he thinks - see, for example, how he shouts on his talk page that Mars has microgravity, which must be a bit of a surprise to NASA. Personally, I'd like to see a consensus here for one final final warning - from an admin who's not been involved with the warring - and then a very long block after even the slightest transgression. andy (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Update - even while this discussion (to which he has been invited) is going on he's still warring. He's just made the same old edits again, and been reverted again. I've given him a final warning for disruption. andy (talk)

I'm hoping the last edit he made on the talk page is a step in the right direction. If it's not, I don't know how we'll be able to get around blocking him for a while. --Jprg1966  19:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

WikiEditor2563 (talk) 21:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I think this neatly sums up the problem. Here we see aggression (red ink, for goodness sake!), incivility and claims of superior knowledge. It's worth noting that the definition of microgravity is easily determined by googling "microgravity definition" where one finds, for example, that "it doesn’t refer to a low level of gravity", something that this editor has clearly not bothered to do. What are we to do with an editor who refuses to check his facts and and adopts and aggressively defends a position in this way? andy (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, the red ink was probably used to make sure his comment was delineated from the comment he was inserting into. I'll ask him not to do this. --NeilN 22:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• I've just blocked this editor indefinitely. Rationale is here: . --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Abusive IP Editor is back

• 200.104.245.226 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive727#Abusive IP Edits: IP 190.46.108.141 (and noting that the same guy generated two additional reports). Suspected to be IP socking by User:Yourname. Has been IP hopping for years now, eventually he is blocked for WP:CIVIL and then a few days later is back on a new IP. Example User talk:200.104.120.204.

90% of his edits are not a problem, the abusive edit summaries are abrasive fucking morons who copy and paste in text instead of writing their own really piss me off. Trouble is if you disagree with him over the most minor point he gets abusive. Has recently returned to Ian Gow , with same obsessive removal of details about his death from 2 years ago . Templated for 3rr and notified of this ANI thread. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:18, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Tricky. I agree that the edit summaries are over the top, way over. But their edit on Ian Gow is correct (you're wrong, WCM) and they haven't broken 3R. I hate these kinds of situations. On the one hand they're correct that IPs often get shafted, on the other they're just inviting it, setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy. Some admins block for this kind of incivility; I don't, but I don't have any other options. Hey, IP editor, take it easy and tone it down. It's always better to not piss people off, and if you really want to vent, why not do it at work instead of here? Your work might actually be appreciated in this joint. Drmies (talk) 13:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

They will break 3RR, they always do. Sorry why do you say I'm wrong, the consensus in talk is to include a reference to the car that was destroyed in the bombing? Wee Curry Monster talk 13:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

As per previous behaviour, they broke 3RR with no attempt to discuss and no attempt to follow WP:BRD. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

They were warned and they broke it. True. However, I don't see consensus on the talk page, though there is a little bit of banter, and a comment on how the make of the car said something about the subject's lifestyle (it doesn't, only by unverified inference--if such a note needs to be made, it needs to be made in an explicit and well-verified manner). But that's beside the point, I suppose. The IP is simply not very good at making a case. Drmies (talk) 20:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Part of the problem has been the discussion with the guy is spread over multiple IP talk pages, hence it is difficult to convey an accurate picture going into diffs over the last two years. Every time he hops to a new IP, its like the clock is reset. Were this a named account, he would have been indefinitely blocked for edit warring and multiple violations of WP:CIVIL long ago. On the content issue, I was swayed by Isabella's comment that the modest nature of the car and his home conveyed some measure of the man, which as an argument is something they have never responded to. Instead they've simply labelled everyone who disagress as "moron". I don't suppose I'm unique in finding it difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone whose main riposte is you're a "dopey fucking cunt" for disagreeing with them? If this is what you suggest is failing to make a case, we violently agree but should we await their 4th revert every time? Wee Curry Monster talk 00:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Ban evasion by Mikemikev

Mikemikev (talk · contribs) is editing from a Korean ip 27.1.214.45 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) as he usually does, showering me with abuse and reverting my edits at different pages.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

So stop lying. 27.1.214.45 (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The relevant SPI, for anyone interested. I, JethroBT 17:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked for 72 hours. Maunus, feel free to file the paperwork if you think it needs to be filed. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Not much need for SPI, it is not as if he tries to hide it.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe 211.119.109.68 is him as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:36, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked. Dougweller just beat me to it and semi-protected the talk page. Drmies (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Battleground and PA originating from Crusades

Can we get some additional eyes at User talk:Joanakestlar and Talk:Crusades, please? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:29, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you have the sources for that? Apparently you need them for every thing! Oh no. I'm typing without a source! LOL Joanakestlar (talk) 19:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked the user for edit warring and disruption. John Reaves 19:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive edit warring and personal attacks at Crusades

User:Joanakestlar has repeatedly added unsourced, POV content to the Crusades article. The additions have been removed, and the user has been asked to discuss the dispute on the talk page. The user has reverted the removal of content several times in the last couple of weeks, including three times in the past hour or so (, , ). {Whoops, make that four times in an hour and a half: .} The user has responded on the talk page with attacks on other editors and defiance of WP guidelines. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Nice style. Well denounced... Joanakestlar (talk) 19:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You wouldn't happen to be related to Stalwart111, Oddbodz, Stephan Schulz , or DeCausa, would you? Like, for instance, IP related? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanakestlar (talk • contribs) 19:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This user's on the 5th revert. Can someone block this pest quick? DeCausa (talk) 19:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit Warring: Ravi Zacharias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ravi Zacharias Long-standing (and hard-fought) consensus language on this page acknowledges that this theologians views about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and its relationship to creationism are not shared by many (any?) members of the scientific community. On editor insists on removing that language, and is already at or over the 3RR rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanakestlar (talk • contribs) 19:39, 11/13/2013 (UTC)

EWN is that way. KonveyorBelt 19:41, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked, and edits rolled back. No need to tolerate such nonsense. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Sluffs blocked

I just blocked Sluffs (talk · contribs) indefinitely for this edit, especially the last statement which indicates a battleground approach to the project after being blocked three previous times, the last time for a month with a firm warning for a much longer block for the same issues, which included personal attacks and threats. He's clearly not here to constructively build the encyclopedia and there is no point in keeping an editor like him around in the project. Thanks Secret 20:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. After reviewing their edits, that looks like a good call to me. -- The Anome (talk) 02:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Advert

Dominikcrank (talk · contribs) has popped up and is advertizing himself as a master forger. It has been so long since I dealt with this sort of thing that I have forgotten which noticeboard is best taking care of it. Please feel free to move it to the correct one with thanks. 20:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked indef and deleted Secret 20:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Secret, thanks for the quick action in this situation. MarnetteD | Talk 20:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Bey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am asking for a semi-protection of the article Bey where an anon IP is not only deleting sourced content, he is also adding POV material to the text. The anon IP should use the talkpage first instead of changing the text. --Lysozym (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Try here: Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. --Lysozym (talk) 21:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards