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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Aquirata (talk | contribs) at 13:03, 12 June 2006 (→[]: POV fork?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Objective validity of astrology

Fundamental concern is that this is a POV-fork used as a platform to present questionable, obscure astrological research that would not pass WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV on a more frequented page. The one entry here that has received sufficient attention to warrant Wiki-coverage is the Mars effect, which has its own page. The main astrology article has a section which can be expanded somewhat to include any other critical points. We have an astrology and astronomy to boot, which we can use if we really need comparative analysis. The page is also a gawdawful mess which is constantly being reverted over. Delete. Marskell 16:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Only the Mars effect is of any notability in this page and it has its own article. The rest is built upon papers from unreliable journals. Jefffire 16:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete looks a lot like a POV fork. Cited sources appear unreliable, and in any case this is more than adequately covered at Astrology#The_objective_validity_of_astrology. I see no evidence that the complexity of the argumewnt warrants a separate article, and past history indicates that this is just a venu for special pleading. Just zis Guy you know? 16:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The history of the Astrology page and this one indicate that there was a need to create a separate article exactly because of the issues being argued. The Astrology page was getting too big, hence the creation in April 2005. The title is already implicitly questioning the objective validity of astrology, so if it's a POV-fork, it can only be a scientific POV-fork, which is not what the described issue is. The "fundamental concern" referred to in the opening is a concern only of those editors who oppose the presentation of arguments for the objective validity of astrology. The main Astrology article cannot be expanded to give sufficient coverage to this topic: the objective validity article is already too long in itself. In fact the possibility of creating an astrological research page has just surfaced due to the amount of material still not included and the size of the article. The Astrology and astronomy article doesn't deal with the objective validity of astrology. To think that the complexity of the argument doesn't warrant a separate page is to ignore numerous researchers spending lifetimes on attempting to determine astrology's objective validity, and then leagues of other researchers arguing about the results for decades. I agree that editing the page is a "gawdawful mess which is constantly being reverted over" -- mostly by Marskell and Jefffire, without discussion. Let me also point out that this AfD was also brought about without input from the other editors. Aquirata 18:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The article only got big because there was a drive by proponents of astrology to make special pleading arguments to counter the scientific perspective. This is not what Misplaced Pages is for. The objective reality section in the main article appears to me to be both balanced and sufficient. Just zis Guy you know? 22:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your point; however, the implication is hard to accept without specific examples. This is an extremely complex subject as I'm sure you realize, and a few paragraphs cannot do justice to it in my opinion. What's the point of deleting over a year's worth of hard work? If the article doesn't conform to certain policies or guidelines, I invite you and all editors interested in and knowledgeable about this subject to come and join us in our work until it does meet all required standards. Aquirata 00:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete POV fork--Kalsermar 18:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Misplaced Pages readers know that astrology is a controversial subject and expect to read details about both sides of the controversy. This article, on who has attempted to validate or invalidate astrology, provides this. In the article readers expect to see names like Gauquelin, Hill, Carlson, Dean, Kelly, Urban-Lurain, Tarnus, and Nanninga. That is what makes any encyclopedia worth reading. Don't take away the knowledge and the views that have been gathered for this article. This information needs to go somewhere. If this article didn't already exist, it would need to be created. Most of the objection here is over sources. Probably the most objected to source is the peer-reviewed British journal Correlation published by the University of Southampton. Although this source is used by both sides pro and con, it has been described (by Jefffire) as no better a source than a tabloid. Ask yourself before you vote if this is reasonable. The anti-validity side has used many questionably sources, such as web articles and blogs. Instead of creating a controversy over sources, the anti-validity side should participate in the examination of the methods and findings, as the validity side has done.Piper Almanac 18:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The main astrology article presents opinion but does not explain how those opinions came about. This is an interesting and complex issue that involves many people with strongly held views and half a century of research. The pro-keep editors are strongly in favor of bringing the two sides of this controversy (since they have much to say about each other) closer together, working through POV issues, and merging the information based on consensus. Piper Almanac 01:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Consensus is that, per WP:NPOV, the article should reflect orthodox opinion, which is that astrology has no objective scientific validity. That is a very simple conept to get across, and is stated in carefully neutral terms in astrology. I really don't see any need to have a long he-said-she-said ramble which amounts to much the same thing but with all kinds of red herrings trailed across it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete POV, a lot of unverified or unsourced material. Interesting argument that, to be "fair" WP must present POV unverified unsourced material. To think of all the time I've wasted looking at encyclopedias for facts... Tychocat 18:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The title screams "POV" to me and while the content makes a wild stab at neutrality it only arrives at encyclopaedic content by accident. Take what little is useful and merge back into Astrology then delete. David | Talk 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or further fork.... The article, at present, discredits (or deletes) scientific disproofs of the pro-astrology papers, while allowing marginal (at best) astrologer-reviewed articles. (As there are no scientific peer-reviewed journals covering fringe science, allowing astrologer-peer-reviewed articles provides undue weight.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete POV fork. Already covered at Astrology#The_objective_validity_of_astrology. -Medtopic 21:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep per Aquirata. --JJay 22:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep except the article should probably be named Empirical validity of Astrology. ~ trialsanderrors 23:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete wanders dangerously close to POV territory. Thetruthbelow 23:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The page is in pretty poor condition and needs to be improved substantially, but there does need to be a centralized page for some of the information and arguments contained in it, regardless of how bogus they may be, and the main astrology article is not the place to do it. There is going to be another page like this one if it is deleted, so I'm not really sure what the point of deleting it would be except to start fresh perhaps. Still doesn't quite seem worth it --Chris Brennan 00:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep though the title should definitely change. Perhaps "Attempts to prove or disprove objectively valid in astrology" or "Research into the empirical validity of astrology." The title as it stands appears to set up an expectation that objective validity will be proven in the content. The comments by the editors when they remove or edit sections indicate this expectation - all these calls to 'prove it' and the responses of astrologers who think they are 'proving it'. It strikes me as very odd that people think an online encyclopedia, where contributors are largely anonymous and of any possible educational background, is the place to decide upon the 'objective validity' of a phenomenon. Give only the data that reflects the state of affairs of the astrology world and let people do as they will. The article much needs work to remove exactly what is strikingly POV, but it does reflect attempts to find some type of validity to astrology - some of which appear to be important enough to astrologers and skeptics alike, having a significant contribution to how people think about astrology. Zeusnoos 00:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • A few days ago I suggested a rename to Astrological research or Research into astrology for similar reasons, so I'd support a title change along these lines. Aquirata 00:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Combining this with a suggestion made a few lines earlier, I'd add empirical to the title Empirical astrological research or Empirical research into astrology. Piper Almanac 01:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems to me there are two approaches in this controversy, there are the validationists, who claim to have found no positive results, and there are the empiricists, who claim to have found positive results. The validationists want to compare astrology to some authoritative modern standard such as self-reporting questionnaires (personality tests) and the charts or interpretations of the charts are always matched 1:1. The belief here is that a chart at any point in time is a set of fixed values with only one necessary outcome and (when questionnaires are used) that people can accurately assess themselves. The empiricists carry on the astrological tradition of collecting exemplary cases and looking for strong chart patterns. The modern approach is to collect a lot of charts and use statistical analysis. The belief here is that a chart at any point in time is a set of variables (because this is what you see in astrology texts), each of which can have numerous related values, but the values approach each other when closer to the most exemplary cases, thus there are patterns. How about structuring the article in this manner, showing the validationists versus the empiricists? Piper Almanac 14:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's fine to make this distinction. But I think the whole issue over keeping or deleting the contents of this article is the product of a categorical mistake. The title leads editors to believe that the purpose of the article is to give evidence that proves or disproves astrology. I think the content (merged or retitled) should be kept because it reflects the state of affairs on studies of astrology, and that it falls under WP:RS's Popular culture category. The same mistake is being made on articles dealing with topics pertaining to philosophy of science or sociology (such as pathological skepticism) rather than scientific research. Zeusnoos 15:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I think you may be right about this being WP:RS Popular culture, with regard to the sources anyway. One study was extremely lucky to get an article published in Nature by some fluke, when the whole controversy was very immature at the beginning. That's not likely to be repeated. Most of this controversy takes place in books, and articles in Skeptical Inquirer or astrological society journals. It rarely goes above this level. A few weeks ago Objective validity of astrology was very POV with 90% arguments against astrology. This has changed now. Piper Almanac 02:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Neutral point of view means we set out fairly all sides and arguments whether we agree with them or not. Possibly rename "Astrology, the case for and against". This article is not a fork it appeared when the section in the main Astrology article became to big and unwieldy. Look at its history. Its just a detailed view of the summary in the main article as happens in all major Misplaced Pages articles.Lumos3 15:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • "Astrology, the case for and against" is precisely what we do NOT need. Marskell 16:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • How about "Research into Astrology"? Misplaced Pages should not try to avoid a topic just because it is controversial or unexplained to everyone's satisfaction. The POV weight of this article has shifted back and forth as weaknesses and sources were examined. The research, like the article, is work in progress and continues to grow as more people get involved and more books and articles are published. This material has to go somewhere. Piper Almanac 19:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Research into astrology is probably the best option. There are tons of material that is still not covered. Dean et al published their Recent advances in natal astrology in 1977 covering research in natal astrology only, and only to 1976. This book is 600 pages referencing 1020 (yes, over one thousand) other works, and it is highly condensed. How could anyone think that this could be described in a couple of paragraphs within the main article? Aquirata 19:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep The fundamentalists of scientism need to realize the objective consideration of any subject should not be restricted to the narrow dictates of their definition of science. Eclecticology 00:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • JzG: Why do you feel a need to push your POV? You have stated your opinion in your first post already. What is the value being added by repeating it over and over? Perhaps you wish to address these questions: How an article existing and supported by consensus opinion for over a year can suddenly be considered a POV-fork? How can an article treating a small subset of the main Astrology article can be considered a POV-fork? In order to help you prepare your brief and to-the-point answer, let me quote the first two sentences from WP:POVFORK: "A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject. A POV fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts." Aquirata 13:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)