Talk:Edward Snowden - Misplaced Pages

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This article was nominated for deletion on June 10, 2013. The result of the discussion was keep per Snowball clause.

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added videos

Hi all

I've added videos from the Sam Adams award presentation in Moscow (one of which is media of the day on commons today), I think the videos are a worthwhile addition to the article but the descriptions may need some work.

Thanks

Mrjohncummings (talk) 13:57, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed as this gives WP:UNDUE emphasis to a minor story that is pure WP:RECENTISM about an organization that barely exists. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I am adding them back; your rational doesn't hold water. If your reasoning was that the Award is entirely undue, you would have no reason for having left the section about the Award in the article. I disagree that this could be categorized as a minor story - with regard to the subject matter and a quick look at reliable sources, it is not. Although the award may not be well known, the people behind the award are highly notable, all ex-intelligence officials and most are quite famous.

This 'organization that barely exists' has been active since at least 2002.

This is the second of two videos appearances we have of the Snowden, and is his first public appearance since becoming an asylee, which makes these videos even more notable, as we can see from the coverage in RS below. petrarchan47 t c 01:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything about the reliability of the sources; WP:UNDUE is about neutrality, not verifiability. The award is already covered in the text. On top of that it gets not one, not two, but four videos? Whether it's intended this way or not, it comes off as abject hero-worshiping. Even a single video is inappropriate, as it puts disproportionate emphasis on a very small aspect of Snowden's biography. He is famous for his leaks, not the award he received for his leaks. This is not the Nobel Prize. And yes, this is an organization that barely exists. They have no website and you won't find a single reliable source that even acknowledges their existence prior to Snowden's disclosures. And every other recipient of the award has an article, but you won't find links to videos of any of them receiving it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

This is the second of two videos appearances we have of the Snowden, and is his first public appearance since becoming an asylee, which makes these videos even more notable. (I've just re-added my note from above.) In media coverage these videos are receiving attention not for the award, the catalyst for the visit and public appearance, but because since becoming a household name after the Guardian interview, no one has heard from him until now. Regarding the videos, I'd like to hear more from the editor who added them as well as the rest of the community. Regarding "hero worship", that is a personal judgement void of substance, given that editors are simply reflecting RS and should not be made to feel guilty for that. The opposite of hero worship is equally egregious for an editor, and I would point to the removal of Snowden's White House petition as well as the recent grumbling at Sam Adams Award as red flags for a certain potential POV. petrarchan47 t c 22:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The fact that content is supported by reliable sources doesn't mean we abdicate our responsibility to ensure that the content is presented in a neutral and WP:BALANCEd way without giving WP:UNDUE weight to any particular aspect of the subject. I do not dispute that Snowden's public reappearance is notable; indeed it is. What I dispute is that his reappearance is somehow so much more notable than all other aspects of his biography that it gets four videos, while the rest of his biography gets none. And the fact that these four videos paint him in an overwhelmingly positive light, far more positively than the article as a whole. Where is the video of the DOJ announcing his indictment? Or the C-SPAN coverage of the congressional hearings about him? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The videos are important IMHO and should be in Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:21, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Please point to a comparable article that has links to a video concerning a comparable event. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

It has been a week without a response. I sense stonewalling. Someone please respond re comparable articles, or I'll interpret silence as acquiescence. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, no response. I'm re-deleting the videos. If anyone disagrees with this, please make an effort to advance this discussion. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I re-added the videos again as it seems their removal is controversial (3 against removal on talk). Receiving the award was a notable event, we're lucky enough to have footage of it-- it doesn't strike me as UNDUE to link to the footage of the event. --HectorMoffet (talk) 05:38, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

We're "lucky enough" to have footage of lots of other things, both related to Snowden and not, that never gets a link on WP. Why is this special? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Why does this article have videos when most articles still don't? Well, most video producers don't release their videos under Creative Commons, and thus they can't be uploaded to our servers. In this case, the footage was released under CC. Most editors don't understand how to upload and include videos, so articles that attract the interest of tech-saavy editors are probably going to be more prone to have videos.

I do agree we should worry about hagiography-- for example, the video clip where he's handed the award might be best put in the gallery and a still image used to illustrate the event. The gallery, meanwhile, might belong in the section on the award, rather than 'motivations'.

I recognize that even in 2013, it IS unusual for our articles to have videos (sigh). And I recognize the videos we do have present Snowden in the best possible light. So I do see your concerns that that article is getting 'special treatment'-- but the solution is for us to make video galleries a more regular occurrence on WP, not to delete links to the footage we already have. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Your response doesn't hold water, for two reasons. First, there's lots of relevant footage available, such as C-SPAN footage, that may be freely used for non-commercial purposes with attribution. We could include all sorts of video coverage of Snowden related events, such as congressional hearings and NSA/DCI press conferences. Second, just because it might be desirable to promote video galleries on WP doesn't in any way negate the requirement that we adhere to WP:UNDUE and WP:BALANCE. You acknowledge that the videos present Snowden in the best possible light; that should settle the matter, as we have a responsibility to present the facts neutrally, rather than in any sort of good or bad light. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

"We could include all sorts of video coverage of Snowden related events, such as congressional hearings and NSA/DCI press conferences"-- You'll get no argument from me! There's a definite 'need for balance' in the video sections-- I think Congressional Hearings would make fine addition-- either hosted on Commons or at minimum linked to. That might be a great way to have our cake and eat it too. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:56, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

How about 4 videos for each congressional hearing and each press conference? Ok, I'm not serious. But do you see what I'm getting at? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 09:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Should the links to the four Sam Adams Award videos be deleted?

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There are currently four links to uploaded videos related to the Sam Adams Award footage: one to Snowden receiving the award (in the Edward Snowden#Awards subsection), and three of Snowden speaking at the same event (in the Edward Snowden#Motivations subsection). The question is whether these links should be removed. Arguments for removal have centered around WP:UNDUE and WP:BALANCE. Arguments against removal have mostly said that the event was highly notable. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Plural was used for describing "argument(s) for". If this was in error, please correct your entry to reflect the singular. Thanks, petrarchan47 t c 09:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Delete most, keep one. Four videos seems to me excessive for anything short of the Kennedy assassination. FWIW, I wouldn't support four videos if Snowden had won the Nobel Prize, much less this comparatively obscure award. Adding this many video links makes it seem the most important moment of Snowden's life, but I think few reliable sources would consider it such (it certainly didn't dominate world headlines similarly to other Snowden events). This emphasis also raises some mild neutrality concerns. For comparison, we would never include four video links to White House spokespeople discussing and condemning Snowden's actions, though White House press broadcasts are presumably public domain. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

But we did include the White House reaction to the Russian asylum - it is the largest paragraph in that section. Further, media covering Snowden didn't just talk about this event, they included these videos. Misplaced Pages is in keeping with RS in this regard. If you haven't researched the coverage, let me know and I will add links. petrarchan47 t c 18:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Reactions to Snowden were moved to the 2013 global surveillance disclosures article, where there is a good amount of space dedicated to WH reaction/condemnation. For inclusion in this article, (video) statements by Snowden can't be compared with WH reactions. It might make to sense to give equal space in this way if the article was 'Snowden controversy' or 'Snowden relationship with US government'. petrarchan47 t c 21:11, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Adding four video snippets that make Snowden's case, and zero that criticize him, really does raise POV issues, unless your plan is to correspondingly overemphasize anti-Snowden views in the prose for some kind of overall balance. Despite taking the time to respond twice, I think you've missed the point here in both. Of course there are reliable sources about this event, but I'm not arguing that it didn't exist (and in fact argued that one video should be kept). I'm arguing that it's undue weight to link readers to this ceremony four additional times. This event doesn't even appear in the article's own lead section, for crying out loud. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:41, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Khazar2 makes a good argument that's hard to dispute. As a reader, I certainly don't want to look at four videos, which is why I have brought up other technical solutions that obviously won't happen within the time frame of this RfC. No matter how many arguments people make to keep these videos, it is an inescapable fact that from a merely aesthetic POV, it doesn't work. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Khazar2 -- These are not video snippets about any ceremony, they were simply recorded at one. The snippets are not "pro-Snowden", they inform the reader about him using his own words. To me, that is good, encyclopedic content. If there has been criticism or notable response to his statements in the videos, I would add them to page myself. As for their placement in the article, I would agree this isn't the best. The videos were added by an editor who has not worked on the article before. I do wish the three could be linked to play as one, which is how media outlets such as Washington Post covered this. But for now, even with the 4 clips and 3 still images, the Snowden article is sparse and visually unappealing compared with most Misplaced Pages articles, in my mind. To remove more media would certainly not help the situation, and is in no way a POV issue any more than text detailing his childhood history would be. It's information about the subject of the article. I don't see the problem. petrarchan47 t c 22:22, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Update: The 4th video, showing Snowden accepting the award, was removed and in its place is a still image. The 3 video clips now have context, with an introduction and a proper spot chronologically in the Temporary Russian asylum section. petrarchan47 t c 00:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think it would be neutral to have videos of Barack Obama or George W. Bush talking about their political beliefs on their own pages? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. I'd also add that responding twice to every post someone makes in a discussion borders on bludgeoning; instead, let's agree to disagree. You still have plenty of space to explain your rationale in your own !vote without needing to also pound mine into the ground. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

keep The videos are all very short. The three in the "motivations" section are all very short snippets, probably all taken from a single, much longer, video (someone please correct me if this assumption is incorrect). They are useful because they help explain Snowden's motivations. The one showing him receiving the award is also relevant to its section. Its removal would not be a great loss to the article, but it does little harm, in my view, to keep such a short clip. --NSH001 (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The short, seconds-long video clips were released by Wikileaks in this format. A longer video, or the source video, has not been released or doesn't exist AFAIK. petrarchan47 t c 18:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Keep per NSH001; this article is quite anemic with regard to non-text content, and as information trickles out about the subject, I expect editors to add more, be it text, video or still images just as we do any other article. Check out Deepwater Horizon oil spill, another article I've worked on a bit, to get an idea how comparably sparse this one is, making this RfC seem a bit of a time-waste. Frankly I'm getting sick of the needless difficultly placed on editors trying to work on this and the Sam Adams Award - a related article and recipient of similar complaints by the same RfC-filing editor. petrarchan47 t c 18:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Delete most, keep one. Four videos is overkill. --Inayity (talk) 18:42, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Comment: It's sad that in 2013 (going on 2014), Misplaced Pages has still not integrated multiple media formats into its articles. We should be able to easily link to and play all four videos in one small window with a loadable playlist template that can handle all types of media files. Otherwise, a variation of the {{collapse}} template would provide a quick fix for those wishing to preserve the videos. But really, we need a way to easily integrate slideshows, audio recordings, and video in a single display. Viriditas (talk) 04:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Delete. This event is simply not particularly notable. Yes, it received some press, so it merits mention in the text, but there are lots and lots of *more* notable events mentioned in the article that don't have any videos, despite them being available. This event probably wouldn't make the top 10. Bear in mind that this is an extremely obscure group that doesn't have a website and whose very existence isn't supported by reliable sources prior to this particular event. And aside from the notability issue, no one has explained how the videos provide any benefit over and above what's in the text. So he won the award. We say he won the award; isn't that enough? Likewise, the motivations videos "explain Snowden's motivations" (quoting Petrarchan); are his motivations unclear from our text? And if so, isn't the solution to change the text? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 09:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: this is a biography article. It doesn't matter if the event was notable, what matters is if the commentary in the video helps illustrate the subject. For what it's worth, it wouldn't matter if it was a home video taken in a hotel room or a major production. What matters here is content, not the notability of the event. Viriditas (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:BALASPS, the weight given to the Sam Adams event shouldn't be disproportionate to its significance to the biography of Edward Snowden. I believe we've all been using the terms "significance" and "notability" interchangeably. The point, though, is that whether content is "helpful" or "illustrative" doesn't end our inquiry; there's still a neutrality standard (BALASPS) that must be met. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The videos show Snowden talking about NSA programmes, the dangers to democracy, and about government transparency. Those issues are entirely relevant and significant in this article. The fact that he is speaking at a conference that you may or may not heard of is irrelevant. WP:BALASP has no application here, and I'm surprised you even brought it up. Viriditas (talk) 07:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

On what basis would WP:BALASPS not be applicable? As far as I know it always applies. And, as it says, it's about proportionality of the event's significance, not simply whether the event is or isn't significant. Put another way, we don't get to put in unlimited videos (or text) just because an event meets some "significance" threshold. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The event has no bearing on the content. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Viriditas (talk) 01:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, for some reason I can't make heads or tails of your comment "The event has no bearing on the content." How is WP:BALASPS not applicable? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Merge: There's absolutely no reason to split a short videos into three even shorter parts. Having said that, the video itself is worth keeping but should be moved to Edward_Snowden#Political_views. -A1candidate (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Merge. Before A1candidate made his comment, I requested further input on a proposed merge here. Anyone who has the skills to merge these segments together is invited to do so provided it won't cause any problems for our readers (or the servers). Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Merge or Keep One. Multiple videos of the same event do not belong in an encyclopedic article unless each video, on its own, provides important content that is not already incorporated by the balance of the text and other videos. In this instance, all videos are of the same event and each does not sufficiently expand or extend the theme to warrant multiple inclusions. Factchecker25 (talk) 14:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I still oppose keeping any of these videos, but if the decision is between merging or keeping one I strongly prefer keeping one, the awards ceremony itself. The other three videos are Snowden elucidating his political views and motivations, things that are already well covered in the text of this article, and additional video coverage of the same material creates a neutrality issue. We would never allow similar footage in a politician's article, and I don't see any meaningful difference. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Merge - per reasoning stated above by Viriditas. This is information that improves the the article, as it presents the subject in his own words. I call that encyclopedic, as I define it in the year 2013. Jus da fax 22:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Keep the videos, separately or Merged into one is fine by me. The videos facilitate seeing the subject in his own words in a story that has gone viral, and due to the subject's necessary removal from US jurisdiction, a story that has mostly been told for him by media intermediaries. Cheers. N2e (talk) 19:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Merge is possible

Thanks to help from User: Viriditas and the good folks at Village Pump, we should have a single video containing all 3 clips shortly :) petrarchan47 t c 22:33, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that with this merged video to replace the three clips (having already replaced the fourth video from the "Sam Adams" section with a still image), we are now left with a single video. petrarchan47 t c 22:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Done

This is certainly a step in the right direction, and I appreciate your efforts, Petrarchan47, but we still have neutrality/BALASPS issues. Why do we have two redundant paragraphs about the Sam Adams Award? And as for the content of the video, we still have the subject of the article speaking his mind on his political views - how is this neutral? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:56, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Snowden is still an American fugitive even with temporary asylum

The deletion of the description of Snowden as an American fugitive is contrary to the subject reference in the lede sentence. Snowden is an American fugitive even with temporary asylum granted by Russian authorities while Snowden remains within Russia. Please restore my edit.Patroit22 (talk) 11:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree 100%. Yes he is also an asylee, but he is much better known for being a fugitive. (See WP:BEGIN.) He's a fugitive until the U.S. government catches him or gives up. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:04, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I like how the first sentence is currently written, without reference Snowden's asylum/fugitive status (as it's not what he's primarily known for). --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Please be aware: This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Edward Snowden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. petrarchan47 t c 00:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Activist basically said that Russia is a barbaric country. Is this kind of blatant expression of one's prejudices allowed at Misplaced Pages, especially in cases where it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Is hate speech like this treated as acceptable by Misplaced Pages policy, or is there a mechanism to control it? – Herzen (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I never said or implied that Russia was "barbaric." I would appreciate your withdrawal of your comment. Activist (talk) 10:33, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you take this to Activist's talk page or the noticeboards if you feel so strongly about it. It has no place on this page. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 09:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Another example of PC, Snowden is a fugitive.There seems to be consesus on that. should change be made?MagicKirin11 (talk) 23:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Snowden using passwords of other NSA contractors

Lennard, Natasha. "Snowden used other contractors’ passwords to access NSA docs." Salon. November 8, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Direct source:

Hosenball, Mark; Strobel, Warren (November 7, 2013). "Exclusive: Snowden persuaded other NSA workers to give up passwords - sources". Reuters.

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

German poll

This looks notable. Very favourable Snowden poll. Might find more refs. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/07/us-usa-security-snowden-germany-idUSBRE9A60W920131107http://rt.com/news/germany-lose-trust-us-snowden-431/ Blade-of-the-South talk 02:41, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Reuters source for no leaks in Russia or China?

After reading the Alan Rusbridger piece on Snowden in this week's The New York Review of Books ("The Snowden Leaks and the Public", pp. 31–34), I thought I would come here to check up on this biography and see how it was developing. Rusbridger quotes Snowden saying he did not leak any secrets to Russia or China, and then Rusbridger writes, "Reuters recently confirmed that US officials have no proof that any of Snowden's material has leaked to either country." I looked for such an article at reuters.com but did not find it. Does anyone here have a clue? Rusbridger describes how Snowden was careful in his choice of where to leak the material, and Rusbridger also says that Snowden's recipients have been careful with the material.

Because of various people publicly stating their worries to the contrary, I think this biography could use a little more emphasis on the assertion that Snowden did not give secrets to the Russians or Chinese. The Reuters item would be useful for that. Binksternet (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

We do have this in the "Temporary Russian asylum" section: petrarchan47 t c 23:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

In an October 2013 interview, Snowden maintained that he did not bring any classified material into Russia "because it wouldn’t serve the public interest". He added "there’s a zero percent chance the Russians or Chinese have received any documents". NYT

Rusbridger is clearly talking about a different story because he acknowledges the NY Times interview right before that quote. A Reuters article from earlier this month says of "Snowden and some of his interlocutors": "They have emphatically denied that he provided any classified material to countries such as China or Russia." But I still can't find anything about confirmation that the US government has "no proof." Odd. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:49, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, odd. I was looking for US officials saying that they have not seen any evidence that Snowden leaked secrets to Russia or China. Binksternet (talk) 00:17, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

The article you're looking for is here:

U.S. officials have said that they were operating on the assumption that any classified materials downloaded by Snowden have fallen into the hands of China and Russia's spy agencies, though the officials acknowledge they have no proof of this.
— Reuters

-A1candidate (talk) 01:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Perfect. Thanks! Binksternet (talk) 01:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales' opinions on Edward Snowden

Not sure where this fits, but...

Gabbatt, Adam. "Edward Snowden a 'hero' for NSA disclosures, Misplaced Pages founder says." The Guardian. November 25, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC) As stated before Wales oppinion is irrelevant and should not be given speciul consideration.MagicKirin11 (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Of course it's relevant, and given Wales' notability it should probably be included. Unfortunately the "Debate" section has been neutered compared to what it once was (improperly, in my view), and if Wales' views were added to this section in its current state it would be out of WP:BALANCE. Basically I think the "Debate" section needs major expansion, including the addition of Wales' views among many others. (This thread is what triggered my addition of the undue tag and the discussion immediately below.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Undue tag

The overall neutrality and balance in this article have degraded since I was last actively editing it in August. Relatively speaking, the article overemphasizes the following subjects/sections:

Career
Hong Kong
Asylum applications
Awards (especially)
Fundraising (this is blatant promotion and should be deleted outright)

relative to the following subjects/sections:

Debate
Criminal prosecution and investigation (especially; this needs major expansion)

Please do not remove the tag until consensus has been reached. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:25, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's incorrect. You are the only person who thinks this material is "undue" and this has been addressed in the above RFC. You are now disrupting this article by creating duplicate discussions and asking people to prove a negative. That's not how it works and you're holding this article hostage to your demands. We don't have to prove it isn't undue, but you have to show us that it is. Unless you can demonstrate that these things are undue in a very narrow and specific way, there's nothing anyone can say or do to address your concerns. It looks like you are playing the all or nothing hostage game. You have repeatedly asked other editors to prove that it's neutral, and to prove x, y, and z. Meanwhile, you don't have to prove your stated concerns, so you are essentially transferring the burden on to other editors. When other editors address it, as in the RFC up above, you then move the goalposts. When other editors point this out, you then open up multiple discussion threads claiming that you are now holding the article hostage to your maintenance tag demands and that all the material you personally dislike must be removed or the tag stays. This little game is entirely transparent, disruptive, and not how Misplaced Pages works. If you have a specific problem with content, then you describe it and ask that it be modified or removed. Previously when you've done this, other editors have disagreed with you. You can't drop the stick, so now you are forced to slapping tags on sections and yelling at the top of your voice that no man shall pass unless your personal whims are met. Viriditas (talk) 04:47, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass --HectorMoffet (talk) 05:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Huh? This is a separate issue. The RFC was about the videos. I'm not talking about the videos here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:13, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

DR is correct there is too much cheerleading on this article and not enough on Snowden's crime and illegal activity.MagicKirin11 (talk) 05:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

We report issues as they appear in RS. There is a section just waiting for your assistance all about the charges against him, but note that he has not been convicted of any crime, so whether it was illegal activity has not been determined. petrarchan47 t c 06:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you that MagicKirin11's reference to "crime and illegal activity" was rather POV and certainly inconsistent with BLP. However you should bear in mind that all editors, including you, must comply with WP:WEIGHT and specifically WP:BALASPS. The fact that you've voluntarily chosen to write at length about certain sections of the article and not others doesn't give you license to violate these aspects of WP:NPV. In line with policy you should (a) write less about your favorite Snowden aspects, (b) write more about the other aspects, or (c) a combination of both. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Remove tag - This article needs great NPOV care now that Jimmy Wales has publicly praised Snowden. In general I agree with Viriditas regarding the tag, though DrFleischman's dislike of the awards section allowed me to review and delete per WP:CRYSTAL a short subsection about a school in Germany that may, or may not, give Snowden an honorary degree. I lean keep on the fundraising subsection but am open to discussion. But overall, I think the burden should be on supporters of such a tag to speedily prove that consensus exists to justify such a major disfigurement of this high-profile article. As Viriditas notes, based on past talk page history here, it appears that no such consensus exists. Jus da fax 05:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain what you mean by a "such a major disfigurement?" I never suggested disfiguring the article, let alone in a major way. I'm suggesting expanding some sections and trimming others. I'm not talking about lead editing or dismemberment. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry not to be more precise in my meaning of the phrase in question, which is meant for the tag itself. It goes without saying that a prominent tag at the very start of an article on such a controversial figure is the first thing one sees. In my view it casts a serious taint on the efforts of Wikipedian editors who contribute in good faith. Furthermore, coming on the heels of a discussion in which you didn't prevail, it gives the appearance, rightly or wrongly of your being a bad sport. I do not make this accusation, but I suggest you remove your tag in the interests of collegial fairness allowing us to begin to discuss your points on a case by case basis and achieve a truly encyclopedic NPOV. Again, it is my view that things have significantly changed because of the Founder's recent laudatory statement regarding the article's subject. More than ever, this important article truly needs to be squeaky clean, so for that we should all be grateful to you. Again, let's lose the tag, please. It would be much much easier if it came from you now instead of as a result of !votes. Thanks. Jus da fax 07:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I respectfully decline. I appreciate you elaborating on your previous comment. I agree that the tag is a bit of a black mark but sadly, I believe it's warranted, as the article has in my view become rather lopsided. My tagging of the article had little to do with the previous RFC (which resulted in a compromise, btw) and I did it in good faith. Any appearance of my being a "bad sport" is purely coincidental. There's also nothing unfair or un-collegial about the tag. It serves a number of useful purposes, not least of which is that it attracts the attention and input of editors who don't have this article on their watchlists. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Remove tag. petrarchan47 t c 06:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Tag removed. DrFleischman, you don't get to hold the article hostage to your POV. If you have concerns, great, discuss them. If you have issues, great, discuss them. But you do not get to tag this article simply because you personally don't like it. This is a deliberate misuse of the maintenance tag. The tag is designed to bring attention to a problem that can be fixed. It is not intended for single use by one editor who can't communicate a problem that needs fixing. You don't get to hang a badge of shame on this article simply because of the way the wind is blowing. If you see a problem, then you need to communicate that problem so that others can look at it and determine if there really is a problem. Tags are used to draw attention to a problem where there is no attention. Well, that is not the case here. You have attention, but you can't communicate the problem and/or others don't see a problem. When you are able to communicate an actual problem that others agree with and when those editors say, "you're right, there's a problem and we need to fix it" and seem unable to do so, then and only then does the tag get added. Viriditas (talk) 09:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

If I am violating a policy or guideline then please identify it for me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 10:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

To return after a lengthy period of time and state, "The overall neutrality and balance in this article have degraded since I was last actively editing it in August", make a list of demands, and tag the article is extremely arrogant and not the way this place is supposed to work. Gandydancer (talk) 09:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, and my reference to August was solely to explain that I haven't given the article much scrutiny in recent months. And to clarify, this is not a list of demands. It's simply my two cents. I feel the problem is sufficiently pervasive and profound that it merits a tag. This isn't holding the article hostage; nothing is being censored or withheld from readers. The tag serves to recruit interested editors and also to signal to like-minded readers that the issue is being worked on. I understand some editors don't like these sorts of tags, but that's really a personal preference. I like them in the certain situations such as this one. I've violated no policy or guideline, and I'm here on the talk page to discuss the matter openly. I'm not sure how that can be described as "not the way this place is supposed to work." Now, aside from all that, does anyone aside from Jusdafax care to weigh in on the substantive merit of my concern? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 10:26, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

According to our guidelines: If the consensus of the other editors is that there is a problem or an editorial dispute that deserves such a clean-up template, then the editors should work to fix the problem as quickly and cleanly as possible so the template message can be removed. If the consensus is that there is no problem, then the message can be removed immediately. The consensus seems to be that there is no problem. Gandydancer (talk) 13:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with this except that it's definitely premature to call a consensus for two reasons. First, it's too early, as the discussion has been going for less than 13 hours, which isn't enough time to allow for the participation of editors who don't have this page watchlisted. Second, consensus isn't determined by vote. Two editors (MagicKirin11 and Jusdafax) have responded in a substantive way to my concerns. One agreed with me and the other partially agreed with me.

(Also, just a minor quibble, the "guideline" language you quote above comes from WP:TC which is not a guideline. I don't know what weight should be official given to it, but regardless I agree with the language so this is rather moot.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

For those who have concerns about my use of the tag, I urge you to read WP:TAGGING, which I just discovered. Of course it's just an essay but perhaps it will convince some folks here that I acted in good faith and in line with the views of some portion of the community. Moreover this wasn't WP:DRIVEBYTAGGING as I initiated (and continue to engage in) this discussion. And finally, the essay gives some helpful suggestions on how to resolve exactly this kind of dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Why not just highlight the parts of the article that you feel are a problem and spend time discussing how they can be improved. Obviously dropping tags on entire work is going to cause a problem. I am not a fan of tagging entire well written articles unless absolutely necessary, get specific with your grievance. With so many editors taking issue with the tag it might be now just beating a dead horse (I am afraid). --Inayity (talk) 18:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I thought I did highlight the parts of the article I feel are a problem, but I'm happy to go over it in more detail. This is really about relative lengths of sections and details of coverage. The most glaring problem is that the "Criminal prosecution and investigation" section is way too short compared to other sections, a problem Petrarchan has apparently already acknowldeged. The second most glaring problem is that the "Debate" section is also way too short; anyone who has followed the Snowden story even slightly knows there's been a tremendous amount of commentary on him (mostly positive, I believe) - yet we only have a few sentences? It's just weird. The third-worst problem is that the "Awards" section has excessive detail compared to the rest of the article, with subsections about obscure awards and gratuitous quotes by Snowden that you'd never see in a comparable article. The fourth-worse problem is that the "Fundraising" section appears promotional. I could go on, but those are my biggest concerns. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

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