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User:Awilley/Austrian economics

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sitush (talk | contribs) at 16:28, 8 December 2013 (→User:Sitush: add WP:RGW). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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The purpose of this page is to serve as an informal but moderated dispute resolution forum for editors involved in the Austrian economics topic area. Participation here is voluntary, and participants are asked to remain civil and keep the discussion focused. The moderator, User:Adjwilley, reserves the right to completely remove nonconstructive or uncivil comments. Diffs are appreciated, but not required.

This page will be divided into sections, one for each user. Each user may edit their own section, and may leave brief comments in the designated locations in sections of other users. For longer threaded discussions, please start a thread on the talk page.

User:Binksternet

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
Answer: Originally, I started because of this BLPN thread of late July 2013, which I looked at and quickly acted upon by removing some primary sourced text from Gary North (economist) with this edit. I then posted at the article's talk page and took part in the BLPN discussion. From there I investigated the disputing parties see if I could identify a locus of the problem.
From that beginning I continued to help at selected Austrian School articles with the intention of keeping them neutral. I have wide interests but I never studied economics. The role I've taken here is one of a disinterested party trying to maintain Misplaced Pages's core policies. Binksternet (talk) 05:22, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
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Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
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In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
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User:Carolmooredc

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
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What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
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Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
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In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
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User:MilesMoney

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
Answer: In America, Austrian economics is strongly associated with libertarianism. The overlap with my interests is that I'm a (non-American) libertarian who edits on libertarian-related subjects and has a working knowledge of economics.
What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
Answer: It comes down to the fact that Austrian economics is fringe. Because it is not a part of the economic mainstream, it's very hard to find mention of its practitioners outside of the circle of mutually-supportive Austrians. These are poor sources because they do not reflect the mainstream, and instead distort the importance and acceptance of the subjects. The mainstream sources that do comment on these Austrians are less than approving, and are therefore attacked as being "undue" or "biased". While it's economically fringe, in America at least, it's not politically fringe within right-libertarian circles, further complicating matters.
Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
Answer: Yes, many. As I've commented earlier, most editors fall into one of two groups. The first are those who are distant from the subject and therefore make errors out of ignorance. The second are those who are close to the subject and therefore make errors out of bias. There's very little in between.
In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
Answer: I could petition to have my single-article ban removed. It's counterproductive and gets in the way of editing on this subject.

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User:Sitush

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
Answer: I haven't chosen to edit them and in fact have done very little editing of them. My contributions have been almost entirely to talk pages for (it seems) a small subset of the topic area + some related talk pages, such as those of users and WP:RSN etc. I've little knowledge of the subject matter & little inclination to pursue that knowledge (very tritely, economists = snake oil salesmen?) but a pretty extensive knowledge of WP procedures and a good sense of what constitutes a reliable source etc. I've also got a fairly decent nose for pov-pushing vs neutrality. I cannot recall why I got involved but almost certainly it was while browsing WP:ANI because, with the exception of Binksternet, I don't think I've had any past engagement with any of the major contributors. - Sitush (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
Answer: Pov pushing, wikilawyering and intransigence, probably on both "sides" but with the emphasis seeming to be on the "anti" side - clear attempts to denigrate in BLPs etc using inappropriate sources etc. Were these things neutral in the first place? Probably not ... but there are boundaries and the "anti" brigade seem to have overstepped them far more. Erring on the side of "pro" caution is a necessity with BLPs, alas even if that means a distorted picture. The manner in which both "sides" have collaborated sometimes within minutes of each other makes me suspect that there may also be a fair amount of off-wiki talking going on. I've had a couple of examples and am willing to share them with any uninvolved admin. BTW, I seriously doubt whether a lot of the individuals are even notable - the subject area seems to be quite incestuous when it comes to sourcing. - Sitush (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
Answer: It has become personalised. - Sitush (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Furthermore, I sense that some who are involved may be seeking to right great wrongs. - Sitush (talk) 16:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
Answer: Not really - I'm trying to steer a neutral course, which probably explains why various posts made by me have attracted echo thanks from both "sides" (never at the same time!). - Sitush (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

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User:SPECIFICO

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
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What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
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Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
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In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
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User:Srich32977

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
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What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
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Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
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User:Steeletrap

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
Answer: My undergraduate degree is in economics, and I did considerable research on the Misesian economists (a subset of the Austrian School centered around the Ludwig von Mises Institute) for my Master's thesis (in anthropology) about fringe U.S. political/intellectual movements. To avoid being 'outed', I did not include anything about the Misesians in the final publication, but I developed substantial knowledge on the subject matter. They are anarchist economists who, in contrast to all mainstream social scientists, reject the scientific method in their models. They are proud of and explicit about being out-of-the-mainstream; as the eminent Misesian Hans-Hermann Hoppe says, they are regarded as "dogmatic and unscientific" by all non-Misesian economists. It therefore concerned me to see that, on WP, the Misesians had established (as user:sitush puts it) an "incestuous" collection of BLPs, largely sourced to each another, that presents Misesian economics and economists as leaders in their field as opposed to fringe, ideologically-motivated figures who don't use the scientific method. This is in clear violation of WP:NPOV, which says that we have to use mainstream rather than fringe sources to evaluate contributions to academic subjects. I have tried to restore balance by adding mainstream sources to, and removing fringe sources from, the articles. Steeletrap (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What do you think is the root cause of the current ongoing dispute?
Answer: The problem stems from the conduct of two types of users. First, good faith users -- such as Binksternet and Srich -- who are (admittedly) ignorant of the subject they are editing. These users mistakenly believe that my (and others') adding "negative" sources to and removing "positive" sources from Misesian articles is non-NPOV. In reality, we are just adding mainstream sources (which tend to be critical) while removing fringe (universally positive) sources; NPOV demands no less. Both Binksternet and Rich have, at various occasions, made statements sympathetic to the Misesian rejection of the scientific method in their models. That's fine, but their inability to discern mainstream from fringe economic theory hobbles their ability to comply with NPOV.
Second, biased users seeking to promote a libertarian anarchist political agenda on Misplaced Pages. The impact of these sort of users is littered throughout the Misesian WP pages. For instance, User:DickClarkMises, a former employee of the Ludwig von Mises Institute (who currently manages its wiki), substantially edited or created dozens of pages (e.g. Robert P. Murphy) about his co-workers. These pages are of dubious notability and sourced almost entirely to each other, misrepresenting these fringe figures as major players in academic economics. Steeletrap (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
Answer: I have clashed with several users on these pages (including Bink, Rich and Miles Money), but all but one of them seem to be capable of collaboration. The one exception is User:carolmooredc, who is constantly insulting and disparaging the motives of me and other users with whom she disagrees. I have no idea what the source of her rage is, and thus I couldn't tell you how to contain it; but if it were to be ameliorated, collaboration would proceed much more smoothly. Steeletrap (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
Answer: Honestly, I'm not sure. When I try to be polite, I just get attacked even more adamantly by Carol. Steeletrap (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

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User:Example

Why have you chosen to edit articles about Austrian economics?
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Are there any other problems or factors contributing to the ongoing dispute?
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In your opinion, is there anything you could do better that could help resolve the dispute?
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