Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by EatsShootsAndLeaves (talk | contribs) at 19:11, 19 December 2013 (→Why?: srlsy). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

something here

Automatic invitation to visit WP:Teahouse sent by HostBot

Hi Barleybannocks! Thanks for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Misplaced Pages and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Technical 13 (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the TeahouseThis message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 20:42, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Pseudoscience sanctions notice

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to pseudoscience and fringe science. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you inappropriately edit pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision" section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.

--Bbb23 (talk) 00:49, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• You have reverted three times today at the Rupert Sheldrake article. You are already aware that the article is subject to discretionary sanctions. Such behavior is disruptive. Consider this a warning that if you continue to engage in such conduct, now or in the future, you may be sanctioned without notice.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:40, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't know what rule you're referring to. I am also unaware of my breaking any. Please elucidate. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:45, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23 is referring to a rule in Misplaced Pages about edit warring. WP:3RR is considered the bright line (but, in some articles, there is WP:1RR imposed as well). I have taken issue with Bbb23's notices of users (including myself) today for edit warring. It is, I think, poor form to accuse a user of edit warring without referring to the diffs and explain why they are reverts if it is not obvious. In your case, Barleybannocks, I would not consider all your edits today to be reverts, personally, but I cannot tell what Bbb23 was thinking because the notices do not include enough information to divine this. I have asked Bbb23 to stop acting as an administrator here because I do not think this sort of threatening behavior is helpful. Hope this explains some things. jps (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I see, but by my count I have only reverted twice: once today and once yesterday (both within 24hrs though). Thanks for letting me know the rule. I will endeavour to not revert at all, but would still like Bbb23 to clarify since I want to be absolutely sure what counts as a revert.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:09, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I think all three of us who were notified today (yourself, User:Vzaak, and myself) deserve some clarification. jps (talk) 23:10, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I seemed to have hit a nerve with my criticism of the administrator, as now I am requested no longer to post on User:Bbb23's user talkpage. You can see my analysis in this diff. In short, I pretty much agree with your argument. jps (talk) 23:44, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Pro-Sheldrake sources

Can you please post them separately, either on my talk page or here. I'm struggling a little might just be a bit tired (not emotional). Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Have been a bit sidetracked with other things. Will put together a list with links on the talk page of the sheldrake article in the next day or so.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard

This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. jps (talk) 00:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

3RR

I'm sympathetic to your view that 3RR is poorly named. Early in my editing career I was informed that I was in violation of or close to violating 3RR. I was stunned because I hadn't reverted (in the ordinary dictionary sense) once. Then I read the rule, and realized it was far broader than I had assumed. As Bbb23 notes, the rule has a long history, and if anything is done, it would be to change the name to confirm to the usage, not the other way around. — Sphilbrick ( talk) 18:51, 20 November 2013‎ (UTC)

(( Added the name of the person who left you this message, which was forgotten when they left it, and SineBot was asleep at the wheel. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 07:01, 4 December 2013 (UTC) ))

Barley & Bannock

Your name intersects some of my Misplaced Pages edits. Through some sort of other editing, I got interested in bannocks and made some contributions to the Bannock article. I also got interested, I don't remember how, in Bere (grain) and started an article on it. All that led to my getting some bere meal from some barley experts in the U.S. My wife ended up making a bannock out of it, which we ate. We liked what she made, but we don't know if it was a proper beremeal bannock, since we'd never seen or tasted any sort of bannock before. Misplaced Pages makes strange bedfellows. Lou Sander (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Lou, I'm shocked! Telling barleybannocks that you and your spouse often enjoy devouring both barley and also bannocks! No threats here, this is wikipedia!!  :-)   — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 06:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration Request Notification

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Persistent Bullying of Rupert Sheldrake Editors and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Askahrc (talk • contribs) 19:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm notifying everyone to whom this Arb's request applies. Please consider responding.David in DC (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Seconding the request to consider responding. Need not be long-winded, a couple pertinent sentences, may well trump verbosity. That said, nobody is WP:REQUIRED; totally is up to you. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Request for arbitration rejected

This is a courtesy notice to inform you that a request for arbitration, which named you as a party, has been declined. The arbitrators felt that the already imposed discretionary sanctions were adequate to deal with current issues. Failure by users to edit constructively or comply with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines should be brought up at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Please see the Arbitrators' opinions for further potential suggestions on moving forward.

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Warning

You are a single purpose account and your editing of Rupert Sheldrake (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is consistently tendentious. The article falls under the purview of previous arbitration, I will ask you nicely once to make no edits to the article without first achieving consensus. If you won't abide by that I will have to go with the ban that several people have already suggested to me.

You are not, it seems, able to perceive that obdurate insistence on your preferred wording is not "compromise", because you don't understand that your POV is not a compromise or neutral POV. This is normal for new editors whose single focus is one contentious article, but long experience indicates that it rarely ends well.

So, this should help you to avoid revert warring with the world and his dog, as has been going on thus far. Propose specific changes on the talk page and wait for road agreement (i.e. not just the two people whose views you like) or leave it to someone else. Guy (Help!) 20:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Unbalance

You've talked about a BLP where 20% of the copy is about the person and 80% is about their critics, including quotes, citations, name calling, etc. It is puzzling, but not surprising, to me that this is allowed to continue. I've seen it before in other articles about controversial people. I used to work on Ann Coulter, a lightning-rod U.S. political commentator. She's like Sheldrake, in that she's a sharp and thoughtful person who inspires controversy everywhere she goes. People would mention the smallest incident or quote from her, then spend paragraph after paragraph detailing every piece of criticism that anybody ever wrote about it.

My theory (or hypothesis, or notion, or crazy lunatic woo) about this behavior is that people with an us-vs.-them mentality will see some of this stuff coming from one of their betters, feel their own ideas threatened by it, and react by combing the literature for vituperation, also from their betters. Reason, balance, neutrality, BLP, etc. mean nothing to these righteously indignant editors. It's kind of like feeding behavior in a pack of dogs--they just can't stop piling on. Whatever causes it, it's a Wiki-phenomenon that I suspect is fairly widespread. Lou Sander (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I understand your points Lou, and sympathise. No doubt there are a hundred and one things that could be said about what is going on, but I'd rather not speculate about it, or editor's motives/MO here. No doubt there are PhDs somewhere investigating exactly that - good luck to them - they have their work cut out.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

74something is adamant about being nice. I've taken his advice to heart, and am a lot nicer than I was a few days ago (which was pretty nice already). As for me, I'm trying mightily to stay on the sidelines. As for you, keep up the good work. Lou Sander (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hello and welcome to Misplaced Pages. When you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment; or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button ( or ) located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 15:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

A Beremeal Bannock Star for you

For persistence, clear thinking, and clear exposition in the land of discombobulated ergot eaters. Lou Sander (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Barleybannocks

Your refusal to edit within the parameters that Sheldrake's works are generally considered pseudoscience being WP:TE that is not acceptable under the Arbitration Committee's decision is now under discussion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Barleybannocks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

My response to the above for the record.

I don’t intend to offer any defence because I don’t think a defence is necessary. Instead I would like to ask the adjudicators here a few specific questions, and I would be very grateful for some specific answers.

1. Is Misplaced Pages primarily supposed to reflect: a) what reliable sources say; or b) can multiple reliable sources be overridden by a few editors’ opinions?

2. If the answer to the above question is (b), then should this not be made much clearer in policy etc, because as things stand they give the impression that Misplaced Pages should primarily be a reflection of what reliable sources say? (I would not, for example, have argued as I had had I known this was the case and had it been made clearer in policy/guidelines etc.)

3. If the answer to the first question is (a), then why is it inappropriate to say that “Sheldrake’s work has received a small degree of support from academics” in light of the following sources which are a sample of sources supporting/showing both the fact of, and the content of, some of Sheldrake’s academic support?

Sources stating there has been support for Sheldrake within academia:

David F. Haight, Professor of Philosophy at Plymouth State University writing in The Scandal of Reason, published by the University Press of America says, “that Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields have been taken seriously by more physicists than biologists is to be expected.”

Bryan Appleyard, writing in the Sunday Times (a source already used in the article) says “Morphic resonance is widely derided and narrowly supported”.

Adam Lucas, writing in 21.C says that “of all the scientific journals, New Scientist has undoubtedly been the most supportive of Sheldrake, having published a number of sympathetic articles on formative causation over the years." And this: "when he has not been ignored, however, Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise."

But are these sources true? Yes, as it happens, here are some scientists and academics who have supported Sheldrake’s work:

Nobel Laureate in Physics Brian David Josephson writing in Nature.

Marc Bekoff, Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder writing in Psychology Today.

Menas Kafatos, the Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor of Computational Physics and the Director of the Center of Excellence at Chapman University – Huffington Post

Stuart Hameroff Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona – Huffington Post

Rudolph E. Tanzi, Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital – Huffington Post

Neil Theise, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York – Huffington Post

All four of the above wrote a letter, published in the Huffington Post supporting the scientific content of Sheldrake’s TEDx talk (which included a discussion of morphic resonance) and about which they say "there was not a hint of bad science in it". Hameroff also said that Sheldrake’s work could be accounted for by his own theory of consciousness developed in association with Roger Penrose

Further scientific/academic support for Sheldrake.

David Bohm FRS, who collaborated with Sheldrake on connection between his implicate order and Sheldrake’s morphic resonance with a dialogue published in the peer-reviewed journal ReVision

Hans-Peter Durr Physicist, who wrote about Sheldrake’s work in connection with quantum Physics

Theodore Roszak Professor Emeritus of history at California State University, East Bay writing in New Scientist

Mary Midgley writing in the Guardian

Paul Davies Physics professor at Arizona State University as well as the Director of BEYOND: Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science

John Gribbin Atrophysicist, and a visiting fellow in astronomy at the University of Sussex

A final point

One other WP:DEADHORSE I have been flogging is that Sheldrake is a biologist and this well known (and extraordinarily well-sourced) fact should not be removed from the first sentence of the lede as it constantly is, contra BLP and clear Misplaced Pages precedence. If needed I can provide 100 reliable sources for this from every conceivable type of source/individual/institution. Here are four from the New York Times alone which, I believe, are not included in the more than 25 currently cited on talk.

All in all, then, I feel I have been arguing for the inclusion of a few well sourced points, and the amount of discussion on the talk page generated is purely a function of the total disregard for sources of some of the editors there. I await your responses to the questions above.

Please note this is not a point about content per se, but about Misplaced Pages policy as regards content using this as an example.

Thank you.

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction

The following sanction now applies to you (in accordance with the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions):

You are indefinitely banned from editing: Rupert Sheldrake; Talk:Rupert Sheldrake; and all subpages of both the article and talk page.

You have been sanctioned for the reasons set down in this Arbitration Enforcement request. I encourage you to work constructively in other areas for three to six months, following this please feel free to appeal this sanction to myself as the imposing administrator or to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at decision#Final decision. This sanction has been recorded on the log of sanctions for that decision. If the sanction includes a ban of any sort, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard.  Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:52, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Why?

Why on Earth do you keep removing {{tps}} from MY comments on Sandstein's talkpage. I am quite able to refer to myself as a talkpage stalker whenever I want to (my main accout even has a userbox where I brag about being one), and you are NEVER permitted to refactor someone else's comments in that manner. ES&L 14:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

You are referring to me as a talk page stalker. That's what it means when you put "talk page stalker" in front of someone's name. I doubt your are sufficiently ignorant of English not to know this fact. Thus I removed the tag once, and then when you insisted it was about you, I moved it in front of your name where it would no longer act as an abusive reference to me. Please don't continue to add this abusive descriptor before my name. ThanksBarleybannocks (talk) 14:57, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Try clicking the link. NO - I am not referring to YOU as a talkpage stalker, I'm referring to MYSELF as one. It has zero reference to yourself, so put it back ... and try actually READING things before you go off half-cocked like that. It's not all about you ES&L 15:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

When you put something in front of someone's name such that it reads "talk page stalker BarleyB" then that means BarleyB is a talk page stalker. If you don't understand that then that is your problem. If you don't believe me, then try it in real life, in a bar or something, to some big guy, and then try your pseudo-explanation there. Thank you. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Arghh...the {{tps}} is always a PREFIX to a paragraph. This is the written word, and we have basic standards (such as proper indenting, etc). How you speak in real life makes no difference - the TPS tag is always used at the beginning of a paragraph that is made by a talkpage stalker so that you know from the very beginning of the post that it's not the actual editor who is replying to you, it's someone making a third opinion. Not rocket science, and you also have to WP:AGF that when I say it's not directed at you, that it is indeed not directed at you - again, not rocket science ES&L 19:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)