User talk:Sandstein - Misplaced Pages

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Deletion of Feathercoin article

Please where can I access the text of the deleted Feathercoin article. I have made textual contributions to it, of which I have no backup. Could you please paste the deleted article to my user space? Kokot.kokotisko (talk) 04:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

So deleting the article with 50-50 keep-delete discussion is a go, but making the text available to the contributors for revision is a no go, am I getting this right? Kokot.kokotisko (talk) 06:14, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

We can restore the article with its history under some circumstances, see WP:USERFY. What we can't do is what you asked, i.e., pasting the contents somewhere. Sandstein 11:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

As the article has been deleted again and I'm the original author, please move it to my user space at Feathercoin according to WP:USERFY - WSF (talk) 22:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

What would you like to do with it? Sandstein 14:31, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure whether you are realizing that what is being disputed here is your decision to close the discussion with 50:50 delete/keep votes. Kokot.kokotisko (talk) 00:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that cannot be true as that's clearly not under dispute - AFD's don't go by !vote, they go by policy-based discussion. And obvious !votestacking always does the opposite of what you want ES &L 00:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Kokot.kokotisko, the closure can be appealed at WP:DRV. As explained above, discussions are not votes, and administrator take the strength of the arguments in the light of our policies and guidelines into account. Sandstein 14:31, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up that this topic is sanctionable. The article, as it stands now, is quite different from my first few edits (more sources, sort of "sugarcoated" less direct/controversial claims). Is it still objectionable, in your opinion? --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 21:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Er, which article? How does this concern me? Sandstein 09:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't concern you per se, but you did appear to take interest on the article of James Delingpole on AE. I was just curious on whether you thought that sanctions could be applied to the authors of the current version (myself included). --Kaj Taj Mahal (talk) 21:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I can't say. I'm not familiar with the topic or the sources. If there are any remaining problems with the article, they will need to be resolved through the normal dispute resolution process. Sandstein 12:53, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Discuss?

I've heard your arguments, thanks. Further discussion, if needed, should take place at WP:AE. Sandstein 12:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am sorry to object to your last AE comment (I usually agree with your judgement), however I simply do not think that you can declare "fringe" any source based on its citation (and use this as a reason for sanctions). There are lots of sources with zero citation index in bibliographic databases. That does not make any of them "fringe" or inappropriate for use in Misplaced Pages. Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 18:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC) I'm not considering this person's work fringe science because of its position on a citation index. I'm considering it fringe science because it is a self-published book that claims to disprove Albert Einstein's work but has not received any sort of mention in any source - scientific, reliable or otherwise - that can be found. It's hard to get more fringe-y. Sandstein 19:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC) What you are talking about is merely a convenience link to English translation. This is actual source/reference, and I have no idea how often it was quoted in other Russian sources, for example. Most important, this book does not disprove anything in SRT. To the contrary, it explains (in one of possible ways) why SRT is so true. Speaking about your proposed sanction, please realize: this is equal to permanent outing of my account. I can promise never edit this page about Ives again, never file AE requests again, or admit an error of judgement and have a wikibreak for a month, possibly enforced by a self-imposed block. That's OK. However, I most probably will never edit here again after receiving such editing restriction. Please realize that... My very best wishes (talk) 21:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC) I can't read Russian, but considering that nowadays almost all serious physics publications except those aimed at laypeople are in English, the lack of any citations or other reaction whatsoever in English to the English translation, in addition to the extraordinary claims apparently advanced by the author, are, for me, sufficient grounds to determine that the work represents fringe science that should not form the basis of any of our content about science. As to your outing concerns, I don't see how the proposed restriction could make you identifiable - considering that the author apparently died in 2006, that's probably not who you are. Your proposed alternative remedies wouldn't help, as they are not suited to prevent what I think is the problem here - you edit-warring to use non-reliable sources as the basis of articles. However, if associating you with this author is a problem for you, an alternative sanction could be a restriction from using any source as the basis of article content about theories or hypotheses in physics if that source is not a peer-reviewed publication or a textbook in English by a reputable scientific publisher. Sandstein 21:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC) What he is talking about are not extraordinary claims, but physical explanations of several well known relativistic effects in framework of electrodynamics (in full agreement with SRT). Do you really believe that "lack of any citations or other reaction whatsoever in English" invalidates any source? Maybe ~20-30% of scientific papers published in English have zero citations. Surely, arbitrators did not mean to count all such publications "fringe", would not you agree? And I doubt that official WP:RS policy considers sources with zero citation unreliable. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC) (edit conflict)@Sandstein: My very best wishes may be using an idiosyncratic definition of "outing" to mean that they will be "out" of Misplaced Pages (i.e. no longer editing Misplaced Pages). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC) ( Thanks, that makes sense. Sandstein 22:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)) As explained above, it's not a matter of (only) citation numbers, but the English version being a self-published work (apparently no serious scientific publisher was interested in the translation?) combined with an absolute lack of any reaction by the scientific public whatsoever (no media articles, reviews etc.), and the extraordinary claims the work apparently makes (by which I mean, claims that are so novel or peculiar that one would expect some sort of response by the scientific community if the claims were even remotely plausible). Sandstein 22:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC) First of all, most claims by this book are not at all novel. And here I would like to quote my "content opponent", Urgent01 . He tells: "There is absolutely nothing in Lomize's "From High School Physics to Relativity" that is not already thoroughly discussed in countless more reputable and verifiable references." I do not necessarily agree. That is what he thinks. According to him, this is simply another book on the subject, and there are many hundred books on SRT. So, it comes at no surprise that a self-published English translation of a book, which is possibly well known in Russia, did not bring much attention. So, a non-notable book? Yes, maybe. A fringe? No. Also keep in mind that widely cited publications in science are those about discoveries. This is a book on teaching/presenting SRT, and the overall approaches to teaching Physics in US and Soviet Union are very different. Yet another reason for the book not be cited. My very best wishes (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC) I just checked: 33,000 hits in Russian internet. My very best wishes (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC) So, here are my arguments: (a) my edits like this (diffs you provided on AE) actually insert a reference to the Russian book (please check), and the link to self-published English translation was provided merely as a "convenience link"; (b) this Russian book is not "fringe", and therefore such edits are not covered by the "fringe science" discretionary sanctions (I just checked the case, and the teaching approach described in the book hardly belongs even to alternative formulations); (c) I did edit war, just as my content "opponent", which might be a reason for a block if the matter was timely brought to 3RR noticeboard (there was no 3RR violation by anyone). I apologize for that and promise be more careful in the future; (d) I do not see any evidence of systematic COI problems on my part - I edited a lot of materials about people I knew or related to my work and never had any problems (that was the first episode, which could be interpreted this way). I would highly appreciate if we could discuss these matters here prior to issuing any sanctions. At the very least, please tell me here in advance if you are going to proceed with sanctions, even after receiving this clarification. Thank you, My very best wishes (talk) 01:39, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I've heard your arguments, thanks. Further discussion, if needed, should take place at WP:AE. Sandstein 12:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I am sorry to object to your last AE comment (I usually agree with your judgement), however I simply do not think that you can declare "fringe" any source based on its citation (and use this as a reason for sanctions). There are lots of sources with zero citation index in bibliographic databases. That does not make any of them "fringe" or inappropriate for use in Misplaced Pages. Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 18:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not considering this person's work fringe science because of its position on a citation index. I'm considering it fringe science because it is a self-published book that claims to disprove Albert Einstein's work but has not received any sort of mention in any source - scientific, reliable or otherwise - that can be found. It's hard to get more fringe-y. Sandstein 19:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

What you are talking about is merely a convenience link to English translation. This is actual source/reference, and I have no idea how often it was quoted in other Russian sources, for example. Most important, this book does not disprove anything in SRT. To the contrary, it explains (in one of possible ways) why SRT is so true. Speaking about your proposed sanction, please realize: this is equal to permanent outing of my account. I can promise never edit this page about Ives again, never file AE requests again, or admit an error of judgement and have a wikibreak for a month, possibly enforced by a self-imposed block. That's OK. However, I most probably will never edit here again after receiving such editing restriction. Please realize that... My very best wishes (talk) 21:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I can't read Russian, but considering that nowadays almost all serious physics publications except those aimed at laypeople are in English, the lack of any citations or other reaction whatsoever in English to the English translation, in addition to the extraordinary claims apparently advanced by the author, are, for me, sufficient grounds to determine that the work represents fringe science that should not form the basis of any of our content about science. As to your outing concerns, I don't see how the proposed restriction could make you identifiable - considering that the author apparently died in 2006, that's probably not who you are. Your proposed alternative remedies wouldn't help, as they are not suited to prevent what I think is the problem here - you edit-warring to use non-reliable sources as the basis of articles. However, if associating you with this author is a problem for you, an alternative sanction could be a restriction from using any source as the basis of article content about theories or hypotheses in physics if that source is not a peer-reviewed publication or a textbook in English by a reputable scientific publisher. Sandstein 21:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

What he is talking about are not extraordinary claims, but physical explanations of several well known relativistic effects in framework of electrodynamics (in full agreement with SRT). Do you really believe that "lack of any citations or other reaction whatsoever in English" invalidates any source? Maybe ~20-30% of scientific papers published in English have zero citations. Surely, arbitrators did not mean to count all such publications "fringe", would not you agree? And I doubt that official WP:RS policy considers sources with zero citation unreliable. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Sandstein: My very best wishes may be using an idiosyncratic definition of "outing" to mean that they will be "out" of Misplaced Pages (i.e. no longer editing Misplaced Pages). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC) ( Thanks, that makes sense. Sandstein 22:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC))

As explained above, it's not a matter of (only) citation numbers, but the English version being a self-published work (apparently no serious scientific publisher was interested in the translation?) combined with an absolute lack of any reaction by the scientific public whatsoever (no media articles, reviews etc.), and the extraordinary claims the work apparently makes (by which I mean, claims that are so novel or peculiar that one would expect some sort of response by the scientific community if the claims were even remotely plausible). Sandstein 22:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

First of all, most claims by this book are not at all novel. And here I would like to quote my "content opponent", Urgent01 . He tells: "There is absolutely nothing in Lomize's "From High School Physics to Relativity" that is not already thoroughly discussed in countless more reputable and verifiable references." I do not necessarily agree. That is what he thinks. According to him, this is simply another book on the subject, and there are many hundred books on SRT. So, it comes at no surprise that a self-published English translation of a book, which is possibly well known in Russia, did not bring much attention. So, a non-notable book? Yes, maybe. A fringe? No. Also keep in mind that widely cited publications in science are those about discoveries. This is a book on teaching/presenting SRT, and the overall approaches to teaching Physics in US and Soviet Union are very different. Yet another reason for the book not be cited. My very best wishes (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I just checked: 33,000 hits in Russian internet. My very best wishes (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

So, here are my arguments: (a) my edits like this (diffs you provided on AE) actually insert a reference to the Russian book (please check), and the link to self-published English translation was provided merely as a "convenience link"; (b) this Russian book is not "fringe", and therefore such edits are not covered by the "fringe science" discretionary sanctions (I just checked the case, and the teaching approach described in the book hardly belongs even to alternative formulations); (c) I did edit war, just as my content "opponent", which might be a reason for a block if the matter was timely brought to 3RR noticeboard (there was no 3RR violation by anyone). I apologize for that and promise be more careful in the future; (d) I do not see any evidence of systematic COI problems on my part - I edited a lot of materials about people I knew or related to my work and never had any problems (that was the first episode, which could be interpreted this way). I would highly appreciate if we could discuss these matters here prior to issuing any sanctions. At the very least, please tell me here in advance if you are going to proceed with sanctions, even after receiving this clarification. Thank you, My very best wishes (talk) 01:39, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Appeal

I have filed an appeal against the sanction you imposed here Darkness Shines (talk) 22:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Delingpole BLP

I removed what you appear to indicate are clear violations of WP:BLP and think it is time to lock up this puppy James Delingpole before anyone tries to re-add the clearly inapt snippets. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Hm, what I objected to on BLP policy grounds was stuff like "mental midget" or, without sources, "he has no scientific qualifications". What you removed reads like a more or less veiled attack on this person's credentials, and may be objectionable on neutrality grounds, especially given its position in the lead. But whether it actually violates our BLP policy would need scrutiny of the sources and the whole article, which I have not done. It's in my view a possible BLP policy violation, but not an obvious one (as would e.g. "D. is a corrupt asshole").

If you think that the article needs protection, WP:RPP would be the place to request that. At a glance, there does not seem to be ongoing edit-warring that would need immediate protection. If somebody adds content in violation of the BLP policy, it might be preferable to request targeted sanctions against them at WP:AE instead of locking up the article for everyone. Sandstein 14:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Lev Lomize book

Hi Sandstein,

FYI, the book mentioned above was published in Russian by the Prosveshcheniye ("Enlightenment") publishing company, a Russian publisher that has been around since the 1930's (http://prosv.ru/). This publisher has a lot of titles and it's the subject of a Russian Misplaced Pages article (ru:Просвещение (издательство)) which says it has annual revenue of 3.1 billion (if that means rubles, it's around 90 million USD). "owadays almost all serious physics publications except those aimed at laypeople are in English" is a non-sequitur. The book is not exactly aimed at laypeople, but it's not a research publication either. It appears to be an expository book on relativity written at the level of undergraduate physics textbooks that we're used to here. There's no reason to expect such a book to be written in English if the expected readers were in Russia.

The book doesn't appear to advance any unusual scientific claims (at least that I've spotted from a minute of flipping around the English version), but rather its goal appears to be explaining standard topics in a novel way for pedagogical purposes. Googling the Russian title and author gets 4000+ hits, a lot of which are sites hosting pirate scans, indicating that the book had some following. I don't read Russian either but I was able to figure out the above with a couple minutes of pasting Russian words into Google and transliterating a few of them back to recognizable English. So I think your overall assessment of the book didn't take enough information into account. One of the Russian-speaking physics editors might be able to advise further. Regards, 50.0.121.102 (talk) 12:40, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Are you My very best wishes? Sandstein 13:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes. They're evading a self-requested block. I've just blocked the IP, because a self-requested block isn't a joke, any more than other blocks. I made that quite clear to the user before agreeing to block them. Bishonen | talk 13:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC).

OK... My very best wishes, if and when you unretire and are unblocked, you may appeal the topic ban through the usual process. Prior to that, all discussions about it appear pointless to me. Sandstein 14:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

What I don't get is why My very best wishes is so obsessed with using this book. Even if Sandstein's analysis is incorrect (and it doesn't appear to be), why not just simply use another source? Surely, for a topic like physics, there should be plenty of peer-reviewed and academic sources to use. 71.57.124.89 (talk) 14:31, 15 January 2014 (UTC) (AQFK using a public computer at a car dealership. I'll change the sig when I get home.)