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Archives

Pre-Oct 2005 Oct 2005 Disputes Oct 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 1 Oct 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 2 Nov 3 - 13, 2005 (Mediated) Nov 13 - 25, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005 Nov 25 - Dec 22, 2005 (Mediated) 2005 Dec 22, 2005 - Jan 14, 2006 (Mediated) 2006 Jan 14, 2006 To ArbCom decision Feb 6 2006 Mentorship begins Mentorship ends, HeadleyDown and many socks blocked The Swish discussion (March 6th - March 9th, 2006) General Workshop discussion (Feb 12th to May 10th, 2006)

Summary of editor blocks for breach of Arbcom, sockpuppet and meatpuppet use

Summary of case, including useful links and quotes

HeadleyDown (talk · contribs) was a large scale sockpuppeteer, who seriously degraded the Neuro-linguistic programming article with virulent POV warfare and heavy duty personal attack between Summer 2005 - June 2006. The final decision is at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming (February 2006). As of 6 June 2006, all POV editors identified in that Arbcom request have been identified as closely connected sock puppets, meatpuppets or sock pupeteers.

BLOCKS BY MENTORS, SINCE ARBCOM RULING

HeadleyDown blocks:

• HeadleyDown editing as "Camridge" - blocked 13 Feb (1 hr), blocked 14 Feb (3 hrs), blocked 24 march (24 hr), blocked 22 may (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "AliceDeGrey" - blocked 18 April (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "HansAntel" - blocked 6 May (24 hr, later shortened), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "Bookmain" - blocked 15 May (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as himself - blocked 5 March (1 hr), blocked 2 May (48 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sockmaster)

Also blocked (and in many cases suspected to be sockpuppets of HeadleyDown):

• "Flavius vanillus" - blocked 15 Feb (1 hr), 15 feb (6 hrs), 26 feb (24 hrs), 26 feb (extended 48 hrs), 26 Feb (extended again 1 wk), 1 April (2 wks), 2 April (indefinite block)
• "JPLogan" - blocked 5 March (12 hrs), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "DaveRight" - blocked 23 March (3 hr), 23 march (24 hr), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Medius Maximus" - blocked 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Addsquad" - 18 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "LemonMnM" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Oblio Yu HK" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Figleaf Riverdance" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Superkyewl" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)

(See: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans)

ARBCOM ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS

1) If a user banned from editing under this decision does so, they may be briefly blocked ... After 5 blocks the maximum block shall increase to one year. (Passed 9-0) WP:RFArb/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Enforcement

user:HeadleyDown has been blocked by mentors 8 times since Arbcom under his own name and various sockpuppets. It is likely most of the other socks were also him, in which case it could be up to around 20 times.

ARBCOM AND MENTOR COMMENTS

• user:David Gerard] states "There may be other throwaway socks involved, email me if you have a list. Unfortunately, they guy is on an ISP with fast-changing DHCP addresses..."

• user:Katefan0 stated to user:HeadleyDown: "A recent checkuser indicates that you and Camridge are editing from the same IP. I anticipate that you will protest that you and Camridge are indeed different people who happen to live in the same place and have the same interests. I find this argument unconvincing -- two sarcastic friends at a Hong Kong university with perfect English and enormous NLP libraries, AND a bias against NLP, AND you found your way to Misplaced Pages within a month of one another. Not to mention all the other sockpuppetry that's come out of a certain Hong Kong university just recently. So I'll be blunt: which account would you like to use going forward? The other will be blocked."

• user:Woohookitty, the last mentor to resign, stated on WP:RFCU: "I am a mentor on the Neuro-linguistic programming. The above 4 seem to be working together to try to get around the restrictions put upon them by the NLP arbcom decision. Essentially, one of the non affected people is reverting and then the affected people are editing. Any help would be appreciated."

• user:Katefan0, another resigned mentor, commented on LemonMnM, Oblio Yu HK, Figleaf Riverdance and Superkyewl: "Hong Kong sockfarm checkuser'ed and blocked"

Posted for the record. FT2 (Talk) 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

HeadleyDown statement

Comment by HeadleyDown on being blocked: "Well, its interesting how many facts are going to be deleted now. And how many will return in future:) Its only a matter of sending the info to the right editor."

Comment to sceptics society (if any others are asking)

I have posted this on user:Helen Wu's talk page:

Hi to both User:Antaeus Feldspar and User:Helen Wu. I doubt much I say will make any difference. However, here to clarify is why the HK sockfarm / sceptics place was banned:

Misplaced Pages has rules and policies. Those rules govern, inter alia all personal conduct, and approaches to articles. Because of the nature of the internet, they also govern when and how a user may be removed for suspected accounts, or for multiple editors working together in a manner that blocks proper functioning of Misplaced Pages, even if by chance they are different individuals sharing computers. You may not like this, but each place has its rules, and those were spelled out over a very long period of time, and at many levels. They were spelled out by numerous individuals, personally and on the article, by mediation, by arbitration, by mentorship, and ultimately, by removal.

The users named have been blocked not because of a sudden desire by a number of editors and mediators (most of whom had no prior interest in NLP) to take a side. In fact they were not formally removed until the mediators tired of their knowing improper conduct, after many months of work by 3rd parties who feel their time was wasted. That's how life goes: - in a communal work, no individual is indispensible, and those who do not learn, tend to ultimately discover this. I'm told it's a bit of a shock. They were removed because, simply put, they did not learn how to write in accordance with an encyclopedic style. they were removed for "warfare", vandalism, invention of false facts, deletion of valid sourced material, persistent cognitive inability to comprehend WP:NPOV and a dozen other standards, breaches of sockpuppet policy first notified to them over 8 months ago and not rectified in that time, running of one of the largest sockpuppet/meatpuppet groups of 2005 (WP:SOCK refers), and virulent personal attacks. Most of these things had little to do with the content they were writing.

(Incidentally, several of them were the same individual, not just the same computer. That's been confirmed a number of ways. No I don't plan to clarify, just to say, "do you think this is the first time it's happened here"? Again, ask Headley)

Anyhow, it's done. This is written, on the off chance there are genuine individuals who wonder why the bans happened. Now you know. FT2 (Talk) 13:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I also wrote on her talk page. The thing that the anti side never quite got is that meatpuppets are as against policy as sockpuppets. There is no distinction between the 2. And all of the anti side...every single user...really only edited this article. And from the same university (most were anyway). And the same club. --Woohookitty 13:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes... the same many things. There was a lot more than that to point to WP:SOCK violations.

I have also posted a note on the other articles this cabal have edited, so other bona fide editors can begin assessment and cleanup if affected, and be aware if they return: Principles of NLP, Richard Bandler, Dianetics, Engram (neuropsychology), Modeling (NLP), Scientology, Neurofeedback, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject NLP concepts and methods, as well as reverting vandalism and deleted categories and links on a few others. I can't judge how bad each was hit, but if the editrs are aware, they'll edit as they see fit. FT2 (Talk) 15:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Going forward

The last mentor (user:Woohookitty) has just resigned mentorship.

Going forward, and the last current major sockpuppeteer banned. The article may therefore be able to be worked on, hopefully without too much disruption by further sockpuppetry.

Two things seem obvious:

• Much of the last years editing has produced a mix of information. A lot has been dug up, but the article, its structure, format, bias, slant and reliability, is completely questionable, since so many sockpuppets of HeadleyDown worked on it in that time, and because much dubious information and slanting was forced into it.
• None the less, some valuable information has come out, and this should not be ignored just because it was presented by POV warfare editor/s. Indeed much valuable sourcing has been obtained too. The problem is, is this really representative of the subject? It seems from research, to be a minority view, not a majority one. It's certainly cited in a non-neutral way (ie selective sourcing for effect).

I am going to edit the page to at least revert some of the blatent stuff. then I suspect we will have to evaluate what we have from before the vandalism, bona fide material removed during vandalism, and valuable or questionable information obtained in that time, to try and construct an article that is representative of the field.

I therefore suggest that we resist the urge to revert everything, and limit ourselves to carefully editing clear POV statements for now (which there will be a lot of) rather than rewriting it all and adding too much new material without thought. The damage is simply too pervasive. We can deal with the obvious... then we need to look hard and discuss a bit maybe.

Comments? FT2 (Talk) 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there has been information added that seems valuable to the understanding of NLP, and at the same time it the entire 1st section is so strongly POV in structure that it should definitely be reverted. Perhaps there's a way we can not delete the information which has been added, but move the bulk of all criticisms to the criticism section, while reverting most of the rest of the article.

Once the criticism is properly sectioned, we can go over what is validly sourced, and appropriate and what's fringe POV and redundant. And then add the appropriate criticism to the appropriate section, if need be. In anycase, since A) There remains at least one more sock introduced in the last week or two and B) He'll be back, I think it's important to move boldly and decisively in the immediate future to create a NPOV article, rather than be in the middle of removing bits and pieces when the sock puppets arrive again. Let the sock puppets have to battle to make the changes rather then have us battle to remove the POV and slanting. At least, those are my thoughts. Doc Pato 01:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Question in that case. I've much done as you suggest (we seem to agree), and moved the POV to the crit section or cleaned it up. But in fact almost nothing of NLP itself is left, the article it turns out, was about 80% +/- POV warfare. Would it be better to find the best previous version we can, reinstate, and then look for valid material from the last 9 months to add back? Its a huge POV pile here right now. FT2 (Talk) 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, I do think the criticism is important and healthy to have. Further having valid, properly sourced criticism should assist in stemming other similarly motivated POV attacks. It just deserves to be in it's proper place so the reader can get a clearer less distorted picture of the phenomenon of NLP and make their own decision. Your suggestion is probably the best course of action at the moment given the distress of the article. The valid material will still be accessable and we can cut and paste it into the criticism section as need be for review. Doc Pato 02:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree with FT2 and Doc Pato. I'd prefer to salvage the article, but am open to the idea of reverting to a time when the document was stable. To salvage the article from its current state woud require alot of work and major restructure, and we'd need to deal with the following issues:

• Opinions in the current article are asserted as fact, sources are misrepresented, and minority views currently framed as the significant majority. For example, the overview starts with a assertion from "Hunt, a sociologist...", if we were to characterise the biases we could write, "Stephen Hunt, a sociologist who writes on Christian perspectives in sociology.." This would need to be done in small stages, rather than removing POV we'd expand it so that it is identified as such, or so that the biases of the sources are clearly identified. This can be applied neutrally to the views of proponents and critics. --Comaze 02:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree Comaze. In an ideal scenerio, surgical clean up would be the best option. However, again, these banned socks aren't likely to stop the hardcore POV warrioring we've witnessed. Such an effort would be hijacked again within a matter of days. Progress on creating a NPOV article would be slowed dramatically. Reverting is unusal and shouldn't be used lightly, however this is an unusal case. I don't believe any other Wiki article has been so throughly and persistantly attacked by POV warrroring, and therefore such a situation is just cause for action of this nature.

I propose we move forward with the revert unless there's an legitimate policy based objection from an editor who has been working on this article (in order to having progress thwarted by new socks coming into play). Doc Pato 02:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we have some sample revert versions? (link + date) I'd like more than 1 or 2; we can easily handle a few and discuss their merits, probably quite quickly. FT2 (Talk) 03:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Was there ever a good version of this article? I can see other critics point from earlier articles which seemed POV in the other direction. Here' one Reversion Link, but it too needs some work.

Another option: What about appending the scientific analysis sections, and the criticism section to the Principles_of_NLP page.... then merging it into this article, replacing this articles content entirely?

That way the bulk of criticism remains and there's something decent to work with? Either way, the revert or this works. Doc Pato 03:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep it clean. Keep "principles" as principles, with criticisms only of actual principles. NLP and science has its own artticle being developed, which will cover that controversy. Realistically, criticism will end up in the main article, linked to History of NLP (in respect of lack of control, charlatans etc), and linked to NLP and science (in respect of scientific views and criticisms), as well as anything that doesn't fit into either. Those are the main 2 areas of criticism. Sounds sensible? :) FT2 (Talk) 18:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Other suggestion how to get a decent article:

Skim through the history (It started getting vandalized between June 2005 - Sept 2005 for the record), and pick out sections and snippets that look good. Merge the material you find into a new "empty" workshop version. That way 3 things: (1) We will create a good structure and version as we go, (2) we aren't tied to "one version" as "the best so far", (3) we can respect different people's input and views better as to what's good content. It'll be slightly long, but refactoring, adding cites, and cleanup, is easy compared to rewriting, and we can then see the best of what various editors added at different times.

Would folks like to try that, in preference to a "find a single best version to revert to"? FT2 (Talk) 07:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Errrr the more I look at the older versions, the more reversion seems to be an equal amount of work. That being said, I have no objection. I just don't see any version that's particualrly worthy. I've taken the liberty of making a number of structural edits as well as merging from other NLP articles. I'll continue to do so when I've time. If anyone has any objections or corrections, unless their fundemental, I'd suggest for the moment just doing it.

The only thing I noticed about some of the merged material, while more accurate, it's not sourced very well. Citiations and sourcing are going to be the big issue I think. Doc Pato 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm steering a little clear as all these changes go forward. I commend everyone, things are looking far far better. For the next few days there'll be very little change that isn't fundamentally better than what was there before...so we're likely to agree quite well.

The article has also been missing some pretty important NLP info too - maybe you've already added it (I'll try to catch up soon). For instance, Headley^9 removed info and quotes we had from NLP books in favour of his sources, which skewed what was being said - so we're lacking some of those really fundamental references. He also removed the valid criticism of variation in NLP training (and made NLP appear to be a single standard), which made it easier to find a bad training and tar NLP generally with the same brush. Anyway.. all good things :) Greg 09:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworked the background - I just noticed a few typos and grammar that needs to be copyedited. It now includes something about the difference in quality of NLP training as you suggest. You could also add a little about the various standards associations, and training associations - this is a common criticism in the literature. Based on the today changes, I'd like to see if we could just import snippets of the best versions of the article, and merge the best parts of the sub articles. We've got megabytes of archived text to draw upon. --Comaze 09:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See my draft approach at Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Reconstruction. This is slow and painstaking, so lets get a decent version up. But its a way to try not to lose the best of what was created. I reviewed about 30 versions to find what seemed to be plausible approaches to the intro. The same could be done for other sections. Not sure if this is a sensible way. Might be best to pick one semi-decent version and then tinker. The last decent version before POV warfare seems to be this, dated May 18 2005 (first two suspect named editors D.Right and EBlack joined the article 17-18 May, may have been IP-only editor issues before but minimal). Thoughts? FT2 (Talk) 10:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Focus on objectivity

Psychology is the most subjective of all sciences and therefore I ask everyone to keep an open mind towards NLP as a science, as the aim of Misplaced Pages should be to provide neutral and objective information rather than articles based on bigotry and partisanship.

NLP is the antithesis of traditional psychology (modeling extreme cases of mental illness and searching for causation) as NLP models people with the ability to do something extremely well in order to map how such 'healthy thinking' can be reproduced by other people. Therefore, supporters of traditional psychology have a serious conflict of interests that makes it impossible for them to contribute without bigotry or partisanship in some form or another. However, while traditionalists may be incompetent in contributing to writing an objective and informative article about NLP, they are more than qualified to review the text to ensure the neutrality of the wordings.

I know that there has been a lot of sabotage on the NLP page, but more or less anal argumentation against NLP by supporters of conventional psychology should be considered destructive sabotage as well. The discussion about whether NLP should be recognized as science or not belongs in foot note form only, as everything beyond "NLP has been criticized for lack of merits and some supporters of traditional psychology refuse to recognize NLP as science" is completely useless for the Misplaced Pages visitor who is searching for objective information about NLP and not intellectual masturbation by the academia.

NLP has the same problem as the 'round earth theory' had a few hundred years ago; it is a new approach that will never get a fair peer review, because there is no real peer reviewers as long as the already recognized scientific peer is entrenched with bigotry and partisanship to support the exact opposite thesis.

In order of relevance, a neutral article about NLP should contain points about a) WHAT is NLP, b) HOW does NLP theory differ from traditional psychological theory, and c) is NLP RECOGNIZED as a cognitive science. The last point is the closest to irrelevant and please note that it asks whether NLP is recognized as science, not whether it is a science.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to contribute with my view on how the new NLP article can be better structured.

Thomas

Hi Thomas. It is true that Psychology and NLP have different goals, methodology, & support 'infrastructure'. NLP does not teach the scientific method in any way, nor the statistical procedures associated with it in Psychology. And there's no career path associated with such research for someone in NLP. However, it is possible for Psychologists to write an objective article about NLP, though they'll have their own filters as to their understanding. Druckman & Swets talk about NLP studies, but then almost exclusively focus on PRS. Many people who know a little about NLP think of Swish, Anchors, Embedded commands - they don't consider the Metamodel or Intention & 6-step reframes.

Psychological testing of NLP patterns is certainly possible, and has been done. However, within Psychology and Psychotherapy there exists already a 'chasm' between "counsellors" and "researchers" - problems such as making the environment too artificial for an intervention to be effective. Anyway, many NLP patterns are as testable as CBT interventions, but Psychologists are taught CBT and are much more prepared to test it. Their tests are less controlled than traditional tests and show an overall result after CBT interventions. We have 6 such tests of NLP indexed in Medline with similar positive results, but they are not as controlled as the CBT tests are, and this is a problem.

Anyway, I do agree that psychologists are likely to approach NLP from a Psychological viewpoint, and that means there interpretation may be skewed. However, we can represent that POV, and represent the differences in NLP and Psychology, to clarify these things rather than make them murkier. Greg 01:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Greg,

I am not a psychologist nor am I an NLP practitioner. I am a relatively ordinary person. I say relatively ordinary, because I see challenging authority and questioning status quo as a way of life :)

I know you would like to hang your hat on the scientific method, but using the generally accepted definiton of science and even the dictionary definitions of science, then the scientific method is not necessarily the litmus test of science, but science is just as much systematically collecting and organizing knowledge as an object of study. It may be that NLP does not fit into a conservative interpretation of the scientific method, but is cognitive science not a science? Is cognitive science a bullet proof example of strict adherence to the scientific method?

The Misplaced Pages "cognitive science" article mentions three levels of analysis; behavioral, functional, and physical. NLP is based on modelling and simulation on the behavioral and functional levels because it is focused on finding out what works (output/behavior) and how it works (processes/functionality) rather than why it works (physical/organic mechanisms). NLP is based on presuppositions derived from observations on the behavioral and functional levels as it recognizes that insufficient knowledge and technology is currently available to give definitive answers to how and why the brain works on the physical level. Would it be more scientific if NLP was purely based on assumptions that cannot yet be proven right or wrong?

The original goal of Richard Bandler and John Grinder was to create new and improved tools for cognitive therapy, but rather than seeing NLP as a supplement or a potential optimization of traditional cognitive therapy it was seen as a direct competition. If you go through NLP literature you will see plenty of references to NLP as a set of tools, but I doubt you will find anybody claiming that NLP is all-including psychology.

Considering that psycology therapists are human beings like the rest of us, it would not be unreasonable to suspect that they are just as susceptible to the 'resistance to change phenomenon' as everybody else. Therefore, the lack of objective 'scientific' studies of NLP supports that it may be more the rule than the exception that neurology and psychology scientists are in bed with each other. This also explains why there is 'no career path' or rather 'no recognized career path' in main-stream science as NLP supporters have been pushed out in the cold by the incumbents and have had to establish their own parallel universe with education framework, peer review, and career paths - I suggest you do an internet search for 'NLP university', 'NLP training', and 'NLP certification' which will show you a corner of that parallel universe ;)

I can reccomend this article by Jaap Hollander, a clinical psychologist and NLP supporter, called "NLP and Science - Five recommendations for a better relationship" http://www.nlpca.com/articles/article14.htm Though he does not fully agree with 'my definition' of science it is still a very interesting article smack in the middle of the subject we are discussing.

Would it be neutral and objective to describe NLP as something in the direction of "NLP is a relatively recent, and still developing, school of thought in cognitive science with a focus on developing tools for..."?

Anyway, I am not religious about the science label and regardless of whether NLP is 'in vitro science', 'organic science' or '(scientific) theory at a pre-science stage' it may be more productive to focus on what NLP is, rather than on what it is not :)

Have a nice day,

Thomas - --TSinBP 13:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick reply. I think we're mostly in agreement. I don't "hang my hat on the scientific method" in any way, I agree there's animosity and that science has a belief system too, I just believe there's value in both systems. DIfferent perspectives. Greg 16:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Return

I think I am ready to make a serious return to editing this page (though I did comment during the mentorship here and there). Now that the "anti" side is pretty much completely banned, I'd look to help clean up the POV wars mess and also makesure that neutrality is maintaned.Voice-of-All 05:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And I want to add that I did resign my mentorship but I am still going to monitor this page and contribute when I can. If anything else, I can now edit this mess. ;-) I was a bit leery of blocking the final "anti" NLP user, but using that many socks was such a blatant attempt to get around the arbcom decision that I couldn't let it slide.

Anyway, the main thing I'd like to see here is a reduction of the number of sources. Let's see if we can get the citations to under 50. Let's get it manageable. Any edits I'm going to do are probably going to make this article more readable to John Q Public. --Woohookitty 06:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello all! Wow. Finally verification of what was obvious in other ways. And you're right - we need to act quickly and decisively. And I too am ready to return.

The reversion seems to be a worthwhile idea. It MAY be possible to get the NLP(temp) page undeleted if that is of any use - the goal of that page was to represent everything that this page was saying, but in its proper context and appropriately weighted - it never succeeded, but may be useful to start with. Other than that - it's difficult to find a good historical version. Headley came in a year ago and changed alot, but we were also here adding stuff. Perhaps the "principles of NLP" may serve as a basis, but it is much shorter - it simply doesn't have the structure to fit in what's currently here.

Perhaps we should look at the structure. What should be the main 4 or 5 sections? And their 4 or 5 subsections? If we can quickly pick that we could then move information into that structure and begin the cleanup. Comaze made a suggestion, as did I.

I think overall we'll have to simply pick a starting point - and then put the article in one editors hands (who has some time) to do his/her best. For instance - if Doc knew he had the next 4 hours to devote to the article, he could have free reign to make it as good as he can in that time. Otherwise we'd step on each other's toes. Is that feasible? Greg 06:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

ps. To avoid sockpuppets derailing again in the near future, we should probably consider people with a legitimate history on here as more involved with any restructure. Greg 06:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with the idea of a reversion or one editor doing alot of edits. I would caution, though, that we should probably have users who want to do that give a general outline on here as to what they want to do. I'm just looking to avoid chaos. :) Another thing to mention is the {{Inuse}} template. Use it if you are doing one of these 4 hour edit sessions. It basically tells other users that a major edit is being done on the page and that they shouldn't edit until the time is complete. As you can see on the template page, you can give it a time interval, like 5 minutes or 4 hours or however long the major edit is going to take. I'm pointing this out because it's a template that lots of users don't know about and it can be quite useful here. --Woohookitty 06:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good. I notice lots of good work already happening on the page .. I just rewrote rep systems but someone else posted theres before I finished ;-) Damn ! But who cares! Progress! Greg 06:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Progress. What a concept. Btw folks. If anyone ever asks you to become a mentor, I have 3 words for you. Just. Say. No. lol I am glad, though, that we were able to find the socks before mentorship officially ended. But being a mentor was the hardest thing I've ever done, no offense. :) --Woohookitty 06:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And mediating all these people, just being one person myself, not being able to block (as a mediator), was harder than coding the hardest javascript I coded. I'm glad nobody has to waste their time of this again, and hats off to all the mentors who bothered to give a darn.Voice-of-All 06:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah? :) You never saw just *how* bad it was. I suffered mild wikiburnout just trying to do the Arbcom case for the sockpuppeteering last November. I got to about 14 confirmed socks then, plus strong evidence, and it got too complex to arbcom-ize........ FT2 (Talk) 07:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I'll second FT2. I don't want to relive March ever again. Ever. Again. :) IIRC there was appx. 1 MB of talk just in a 6 week period. I will say though. I don't want to give Headley/Camridge/Alice/Bookmain et all credit, but keeping all of those socks straight must've been a challenge. --Woohookitty 07:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(and hats off to user:Comaze for sticking it out amidst such nastiness!) FT2 (Talk) 07:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

okokok... and hats off to you and the mentors too * grins * Do I detect a party mood on this article here? :) FT2 (Talk) 07:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(And you don't have to. All of them said the same things, so it wasn't exactly complicated. >Pick random sock. >Spout same rubbish. >Repeat. :P) FT2 (Talk) 07:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit of a post mortem. We deserve it. :) --Woohookitty 07:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

A very apt phrase, in the context. For my part, with all due deference to WP:NPA, the more mortem and the less post(ing), the better :P FT2 (Talk) 08:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's time to use rename -=C=- back to Comaze 09:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I archived the workshop talk page

926 KB total. That's. 9. 2. 6. :) I'm going to erase the workshop page and redirect it back to here. If we ever want to recreate it, we can. As Comaze and Greg can attest to, we didn't really have any progress anyway. --Woohookitty 12:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And you stopped us before we got to 1MB, how could you? --Comaze 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you like to get slapped? :) I'm kidding. Well if you include all of the archives, it's way over 1MB. --Woohookitty 13:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Our maybe get scrached? :D Voice-of-All 16:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Semipro?

Will this have to have indef semi-pro? To bad you coudn't range block IPs from editing a certain article. Maybe a VoABot could .split('.') the names of IPs and check the last blocks for range combinations and autorevert, I always though something like that would be interesting...Voice-of-All 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Development

I'm concerned that it might end up becoming a "soft" article, lacking focus or balance if "stuff gets added back" at whim. I know that's the approach I thought would work, but I don't know if it will now.

What I'd like to suggest is, can we get it to a reasonable balance, at least enough to present the main facts and main criticisms, and then cease working on the main article and instead open a workshop + talk page and look carefully at how it's structured and what should go in its sections?

I have set up an overview structure of the article as it stands, at /Workshop, for editing and discussion. Hopefully we can flesh out what the article should look like, and then start to fill it in. FT2 (Talk) 17:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• First major clean-up. History of NLP moved to its own article, sensible wikipedia-style section and link replaces it :) FT2 (Talk) 22:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Second major clean-up. "Users" section created, so that claims (whether of use or scepticism) are not merely left as hearsay, allowing users to judge the places NLP is used for themselves. FT2 (Talk) 01:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Third major cleanup - can someone please sort out the "fundamentals" which is basically a copy & dump from "Principles of NLP"? See below. Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Fourth major cleanup - I'm working on a much needed article, NLP and science. I think this one will actually not be hard to do, since it's pretty much a matter of "list research, summarize a balanced view of all sides, and comment". But it needs careful work. Once I've put in what I can that is fair, that I know about, I'd like some help to ensure all sides are fully and fairly represented and cited. That's not yet, but "soon". You can see on that stub, the outline I'm working with. FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Remember to avoid rhetorical questions. Misplaced Pages is not a research journal. We're not here to "prove" theories. Secondly, the article has "Anecdotal evidence from users". That is unencyclopedic. Again. We're not here to prove theories. We're also not here to give "real world" examples. Again, that reads like a research paper. The "Is NLP a science?" section needs to revamped. I have no problem with an article looking at the relationship between science and NLP, but we're not here to prove theories or to put forward theories. You have to make it sound more authoritative sounding. --Woohookitty 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• I made the one section less rhetorical by removing the questions and putting it into a format we generally use. It still reads too much like a research paper in parts. It needs to be "dumbed down" a tad. But I'll wait to do anything else until you are done, FT2. --Woohookitty 11:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wanted to add that your other changes are good, FT2. Very good actually. I always felt like this article should be split into several different articles with the main article summarizing what's in the offshoot articles. --Woohookitty 12:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually anecdotal evidence can be made factual. Its all down to what's meant by anecdote, and citing sources: "It is notable that NLP has been regarded as valuable by many independent clinical bodies (list of cites), and police forces (list of cites), although other bodies consider it unproven or express doubts (list of cites)." Thats how you make anecdote scientific. We aren't presenting a scientific point of view, but a neutral one; it is notable that many bodies regard NLP as valuable, it is also notable that few of them have formally tested it as such, in a laboratory sense. That's the meaning of "anecdotal evidence". It's suggestive of findings, but it is not in any sense scientific "proof". Does that clarify at all? Let me know if that makes sense. FT2 (Talk) 16:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. As I said, I'll wait until you've added everything you want to the NLP and science article before I edit it. Just a warning though. I'll be editing it alot. :) Just need to change the tone from college essay to encyclopedia. I won't change what you are saying...just how its said. --Woohookitty 10:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Fundamentals -- Can someone else compare the "fundamentals" section to the article Principles of NLP? They pretty much coincide, it's almost a direct "lift". That's why the article is so insanely long. None the less, some recent cites and edits from this article ought to be merged back into "Principles" (if valid). When "Principles" is up to date on everything of value, the matching sections in this article needs to be cut right down to a summary plus "Main article: LINK". Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 01:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we could merge 2.1 Foundational assumptions and 2.2 Presuppositional beliefs. "2.8 Other Concepts, Models and Techniques" could also be merged, by introducing and linking to them from other sections. --Comaze 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you? Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 02:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll do my best, but I'm a techie not an academic, so if you could copyedit my work I'd appreciate it. --Comaze 02:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Comaze - I may get involved in that as well. There ARE NLP presuppositions which are separate from fundamentals... though currently those 2 sections are synonymous. I may elaborate on presuppositions. Is that okay? Greg 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Greg, I've posted my first (early) draft of the principles / fundamentals section... http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Reconstruction#Replacement_of_Fundaments_section_.28working_title.2C_Principles.29 - you're welcome to edit, however you wish.. Just let me know if you are working on it. --Comaze 10:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Next clear-up... NLP and science was long and going to get much longer since new studies can always be added. That's a problem now, more so in future. So I've moved the actual research to List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming with NLP and science then linking and summarizing. Should be a lot cleaner. FT2 (Talk) 10:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That felt good

I just made my first real edit to this article. I made the first paragraph cleaner and clearer. I never could figure out why some were set on cramming so much into the first paragraph. For one thing, "personal development" covers really all of the main reasons why people adhere to NLP principles. Specifics can be covered later in the article. As I've said from the start, we need to write this article for the average reader, not experts. You guys have no idea how long it was that I had no idea what NLP really was. NLP isn't that complicated. We need to make sure people can read through the first paragraph without going "Huh?" like I did when I first read it. :) --Woohookitty 11:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

yay! And you just helped me figure out why I never liked it. The thing is, one of the 3 is not subordined to the other two. It's how all three interact together. I didn't spot it till WHKitty edited :) Does the revised text help at all? Comments? Three versions:

• Version #1 -- "The term 'Neuro-linguistic programming' stems from being a set of models and principles meant to describe the relationship between mind (neuro) and language (linguistic) and how their interaction might be organized (programming) to affect an individual's mind, body and behavior."

• Version #2 -- "... meant to explore how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact to create subjective reality and human behavior."

• Version 3 -- "... meant to explore how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact, and how they give rise to, and are influenced by, subjective reality and human behaviors."

I hope that builds on user:woohookitty's neat editing, in a good way. The third version highlights the 2 way nature of it. Thoughts? FT2 (Talk) 14:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I find that 3rd version quite complicated, though I'm not sure how to keep the concepts and make it simpler yet. I'll have a play some time (though I'm finding it hard to keep up for now, no time)

On a slightly different-but-similar note, I once wrote a paragraph replacement for the literal meaning of Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It was an attempted compromise and as such wasn't "free"... but if any of it is of any value then good...

• Neuro-Linguistic Programming literally means "brain-language programming". NLP teaches that the brain has an internal language which is programmed through life experiences. Everyone has different experiences and learns differently - sometimes people learn well, sometimes poorly - and sometimes someone develops excellence in a certain field. A key goal in NLP is to help people learn or develop new behaviours & thought patterns - both by learning new patterns based on what others do particularly well (NLP modeling), and through exploring a person's existing way of doing things to find new perspectives & possibilities. NLP claims that people do the best they can given the choices they believe they have - and that if someone finds a new more effective way of doing something they will use it in preference to the old.

Greg 02:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well FT2, I'm glad you like it. I think the intro (and alot of this article) got overcomplicated when there were just too many chefs stirring the pot. It happens. And that's not an indictment of the anti-NLP side. I think that if we had 12 editors that were all pro, the same thing would've happened. Just too many voices and viewpoints and they couldn't agree on anything. --Woohookitty 03:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro reword?

I was looking at the intro, wondering if it really was as smooth as it could be. Do people like any aspects of this?

Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a set of techniques, axioms and beliefs developed around 1973 by Richard Bandler and professor John Grinder, in examining why certain world-renowned psychotherapists were so effective. Rather than explore this question by forming theories, Bandler and Grinder sought to study directly what exactly the therapists were doing in their sessions that enabled them to obtain such results, and to categorize and systematize it.

Based on these observations, NLP teaches people how to observe and utilize patterns, and to adapt their approach and respond to others in a high quality and skilled manner, as did the original, very effective therapists drawn upon. It was metaphorically described by the original developers as "therapeutic magic" and 'the study of the structure of subjective experience".

NLP is predicated upon the assumption that peoples' behaviors have structure and purpose. The term itself summarizes how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact, and how they give rise to (and are influenced by) subjective reality and human behaviors. NLP focusses upon a wide range of areas beyond its core area of communication, including therapy, coaching, skills analysis ("modeling"), negotiation, personal development, and allergy and trauma change.

(Last paragraph on criticisms, as at present)

I've drawn on Druckman to rewrite the description. Is it any good? FT2 (Talk) 22:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good, but may be selling NLP and not neutral enough. As for the old intro - I was going to question the existing "NLP was influenced by ideas of the New Age" (which ideas are we talking about!?) and "primarily personal development" as most NLP I've seen is working with 2 people... yet it is for the personal development of the client. Greg 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Synesthesia

Hi. There are a many paragraphs here and there which won't make sense to a lay reader, and as the big brush strokes are being well done by you guys I may get involved in some of that - so if there are areas where you're happy with the broad result let me know and I'll have a look at any ways I think might be better for wording things. I know woohookitty is doing the same. Anyway, one example is this.

• NLP does not recognize any ultimate mediator in the structure and organization of subjective human thought except the senses, sensory representations, and human neurology and physiology. However it does not place a limit on what may be represented within or by those systems – possibly by synesthesia, the experiencing of one form of sensation within a different sensory system. So NLP considers it a legitimate question to study the subjective experience, and subjective processes, of anything that humans claim to experience.

I think the first sentence can be cleaned a bit, but I was firstly checking that it actually made sense. I got stuck on "possibly by synesthesia" - what are we trying to say with that? A synesthesia is a connection between senses or sensory representation systems, via human neurology.... it IS human neurology. Perhaps it should say "examples include synesthesias and .... (beliefs? habits? etc)".

FT2, you said it needed to be there but not sure how - can you clarify the intent / what you want to say generally, and I'll play with the wording? Greg 22:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Long winded explanation of what and why I have used that term there..... When NLP says stuff "is" processed auditorily, visually, etc, it is, at least possibly, talking metaphorically. In other words, its possible that one interpretation of NLP is, "for practical purposes we can treat it as if it is procesed sensorily". Now... when NLP models something esoteric and new-agey, like ESP or spirituality, and renders it down to sensory specifics, it is POSSIBLE that what's meant is, "if this was a sense, what sense would it be". It may be an "as-if"... that we are rendering it into other sensory modes, but this does not mean that (if they existed) spirit or ESP are a sensory mode. Sensory modes are a means of working with impressions that the brain, by analogy and metaphor, understands. Same as when NLP says "you don't know how, but PART OF YOU does", its pushing for a translation of the system into a "you" that doesnt and a YOU that does, and working with that... NLP doesn't know if its true, but it says, its useful to work with it as if it is. Synesthesia is the term used when something that is actually in one sensory system, is perceived in another too, so it fits this. It's a term I'm using to say "ESP/spirituality/whatever impression may not have actually been in that sense, but by metaphor and analogy, LETS ASSUME it is rendered into some "known" sense, what would it be". Hope that (in a vague way) helps.

If there is a better term or way to clarify the fact "NLP does not technically say it IS always sensory, but that it helps to AS-IF that it is always a known sense, even if that means some mental manipulation to As-If translate it to another modality...." -- then use it :) FT2 (Talk) 00:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow... okay I'm a little lost. NLP never actually says what IS going on inside... just how people report its experience, or as evidenced in their language and actions. And in that sense - doesn't NLP say that all experiences are made up of VAKOG elements? Personally I say that our concepts (F2 transforms/second attention) are mapped onto VAKOG elements (which only works if you can map some things into Internal Dialogue). Let me think about this :-) Greg 07:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup, its the crucial difference of accuracy of saying "it is VAKOG" or:

• "it can be represented and manipulated as if it is VAKOG"
• "It's subjectively perceived as VAKOG"
• "As you look at that, does it seem <submodality description>?" -- does this direction mean it was a voice, or was it an impression which we create an auditory version of?

NLP is not averse (as I see it) to saying "we don't know what that imopression is, but it can be described and manipulated in VAKOG language"... and possibly thats a subtle but important issue. FT2 (Talk) 07:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently added sub-articles open for editing

4 new sub-articles added, and their statuses:

1. History of NLP -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
2. List of users of Neuro-linguistic programming -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
3. List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming -- From "NLP and science" so that the "studies" section of that article doesn't get insanely long. Open to editing and discussing as normal, some sections incomplete, sketchy or not drafted. Main article structure done. Generally supportive research added. Cognitive/neurological research omitted and to be added (have research, needs summarizing). Accurate representations of any critical studies omitted at present as I'm not convinced I have an accurate representation of them. There is a strong negative view, the studies reporting it need fairly representing. Please edit and discuss this article and help fix that weakness.
4. NLP and science -- much of it is done, but unfair to draft the summary sections for this until the above article ("List of studies...") is more complete.

In brief, all 4 of the above can be edited, completed and discussed as normal, in their own right. FT2 (Talk) 00:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also updated: The mess in "rep systems", "modalities" and "submodalities" now mostly re-cleaned up, see Representational systems (NLP) and Submodality (NLP). Needs cleanup still in some sections. Woohookitty, you might like that intro, it actually explains what rep systems are about in NLP, not just "technical jargon" :P :) FT2 (Talk) 12:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I know I might get kicked for saying this thing but I get what is happening here. You dont want a critic in the discussion. Hong Kong people are pretty anti the NLP as you see in the newspaper. But I'm not stupid. You guys just ask me to post things here to get me kicked. Hylas Chung 10:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't get what's happening here. We want critics. We just don't want more meatpuppets that have come here via the University of Hong Kong skeptics club. --Woohookitty 10:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where I should post this... I want to work on the follow articles... Perceptual_positions (cleanup), Meta_model_(NLP) (expand and cleanup, add third party references), Rapport_(NLP) (merge with Rapport), Neurological levels (expand article). Generally, we need to rely on third party reliable references. --Comaze 17:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

On the project page? A list there under "things to do" of "pages needing attention" (and why) would be a good idea. FT2 (Talk) 08:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming

I have problems with List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming. It's just simply not needed. And it'd be impossible to maintain. It's simply not necessary to have a listing of every study done of NLP. And it reads like a bibliography for a college essay. There isn't another article on the site like it and I just don't see the need for it. We have a reference list for this article and we're going to for all of them. We don't need anything additional. We're not here to make arguments about how "valid" NLP is. We're here to write an encyclopedia article on it. Readers can make up their own mind by going through the References. We don't need anything beyond that. I really think it should be deleted. --Woohookitty 17:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has many such "list of..." articles. They aren't intended to make a case, of "prove" anything, but to provide useful source materials for others who may be interested. A large proportion aren't expected (or able) to be complete. There are "list of..." articles of everything from List of open source software packages, List of television personalities, List of algorithms, List of neologisms on The Simpsons, List of portmanteaux, List of digital library projects, List of biomolecules, List of trivia lists, List of family separation research articles... Research into NLP (for and against) is not that well listed anywhere, and is clearly valuable as information to those with an interest in the field. In what sense is it not encyclopedic to have an article listing known studies (of all sorts, not just "for" or "against") in a subject? FT2 (Talk) 21:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You are talking apples and oranges, FT2. The lists you listed are lists for general knowledge. That's what encyclopedias are for. A list of sources of NLP is not general knowledge. It's essentially a very long article that consists of a bibliography with a long reference list. And it's not just a bibliography. It's a bibliography with commentary, which I know is going to be disputed by the anti NLP side. It's unencyclopedic in that it's simply not an encyclopedia article. You are never going to find an article in an encyclopedia that is entirely a list of sources. If you see anything approaching that, it's going to be a reference section and we already have that in this article. So it's redundant. It's not needed because we already have reference lists in other articles. And it's unencyclopedic in that you are never going to see just a listing of sources as a separate article in an encyclopedia. That's what reference lists at the end of articles is used for. Read Misplaced Pages:Listcruft. --Woohookitty 02:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I sort of see the point you're making. I was looking more at WP:LIST, "Information: The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list..." It's hard to see a list of studies as not being that. As I understand it, part of what you're saying is, if a study is discussed in NLP and science it'll be footnoted there, and if it isn't then it doesn't need mentioning, so a list would be unnecessary in any event. Is that about right, or am I missing something more fundamental? FT2 (Talk) 05:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you've got most of my point. It's just not needed. And I think that having it just opens us up to more rancor and fighting and we've had enough of that. :) --Woohookitty 07:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Would it be okay to leave it as a reference article for a while, as we clean the field up? It's a bona fide list of sources at least, and will serve well to use as source material for criticism and citation sections (if someone adds the "against" articles), and its value can be judged by that. If it gets hostility I would agree, but it's hard to see people legitimately objecting to a list of research papers as "invalid" or "biased". I don't think it meets AFD criteria... though obviously I can see where you are coming from. can we leave it a while, and come back to it? It's a useful source while all this is going on... and would be more so if the "negative" articles were also cited for reference too. FT2 (Talk) 12:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually FT2, I'd recommend moving it to your userspace. Articles like that should probably be in an userspace. If you don't know how to do that, let me know. You basically just go to your userspace, add a / to the end of the address and then add the name of the article and then just create the article. I can do it for you if you don't know what I mean. --Woohookitty 08:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

N.L.P.

This is interesting. I see quite a few sudden changes to the article but with not much in the way of reliable backup (in fact some reliable backup to science has been removed). Looks a little desperate. I find the scientific research by Devilly, Sharpley and others to be highly convincing and quite conclusive. I think NLP looks pretty much like pseudoscience. I'd like to see if I can salvage some of the sensible views on NLP. Banning rule-breakers is one good thing, but the science view really does need caretaking. Its pretty clear what the general science view is. I'd like to keep it maintained. I've access to most of the research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by brightonRock101 (talk • contribs)

Much as I try to assume good faith, I do feel in this case there's a good chance we've just met the first of the sneaky sockpuppets, pretty much as predicted. Before we go further, would you care to make a statement that you aren't in any way related to the recent sock/meatpuppet ring or the Hong Kong Sceptics group? FT2 (Talk) 18:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It is with great dismay that I have just read through the Misplaced Pages information on the subject of NLP. It seems to be filled with comments from people who have only a passing knowledge of the subject and have based their recording on a 'gut-feeling'. No details of research were shown to place some illumination on the basis of the criticism. They seemed to be examining only the high priced seminares from those engaged in the commercial selling of NLP. minimum details in education-sport-health progress.

As a psychologist with 15 years of experience in consulting people with minor health conditions. In conducting many work-shops for lay people to experience NLP. I would like to add two observations 1. The detractors claim no research has been undertaken that validates the use on NLP as a method of substance. That is a nonsense request just as it is for the natural health discipline acupuncture to be examined by existing medical research methods. Once an academic -medical practitioner writing on the subject of NLP clearly understands that no two people have similar attitudes and beliefs, such an academic would then surely understand that it is impossible to make comparisons. (using present protocol) How can one place acupuncture needles within a body without an effect being caused. Our outdated research system is the reason that one cannot examine NLP to be accepted in present protocol restrictions for authenticity. They claim that case history results do not carry weight as evidence in favour of the value of NLP. That is a pity becaue I have over 2,000 cases in my records showing positive changes made by people being helped by NLP. The growing number of organisations placing NLP within their own list of resources surely adds to the evidence. The strength on the psychology discipline is underlined by the number of Fortune 500 companies using NLP 2. My firm belief in the reason for the dismissive manner that NLP receives from the medical establishment is this. The average number of clinic visits for a patient to need when undergoing an NLP treatment is 3 visits. I just wonder how many of the learned respected contributors the the Misplaced Pages Encylopedia had this fact in mind when damning the discipline so stongly. Ray Trevor Twine MA (behaviour psychologist) Owner of the Surry Clinic Surrey UK 1992-1998 trustee of the Complimentary Medicine Research Project Trust Uk.

Hi, and thanks for commenting. It's valued.

Some background that may help, on both this article, and Misplaced Pages in general. As regards this article, it has recently (this week) emerged from almost a year of extreme editorship on the critical front. Accordingly editors who are attempting to balance both "sides" and present it neutrally and fairly, are still in the process of cleaning up and attempting to sort out valid from biased information. Please read About Misplaced Pages for more on Misplaced Pages to understand the manner in which this happens, and that it is an inevitable aspect of an open encyclopedia -- sometimes vandalism or mis-editorship arises and takes time to remove. This was a very large-scale case of it. The payoff is that it is hard to vandalise something long term, and the system is by and large robust, comprehensive and self-correcting. So it's "swings and roundabouts".

Second, regarding Misplaced Pages itself, have you considered publishing, perhaps with a degree of peer review, your 2000 cases? I ask since Misplaced Pages attempts to exclude unverified information, for accuracy's sake. Clearly the best verification that something is accurate is from a published source which others can confirm to themselves. Individual practitioners unpublished records or case notes, as such, aren't verifiable by the world at large until published in some form. Please see Misplaced Pages's original research, verification and source citation policies.

If you do have valuable information that is omitted, please do feel free to be bold and edit it in yourself, being mindful to keep to Misplaced Pages's standards in those policies -- you're welcome to do so, and it's much appreciated when professionals contribute of their specialist knowledge. However be aware that we also document the failed experiments, the damning reports and the studies that show no effect, as well, since they are also part of the picture. We attempt to present both sides fairly, and whilst the article doesn't do that at present (for exceptional reasons explained), it is the hope here that it will. In the meantime, you might find List of users of Neuro-linguistic programming interesting. If you have citable, sourced evidence on Fortune 500 usage, that would be valued, please add it here or to the talk page there. FT2 (Talk) 13:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight -- I want to make sure I have understood you (Ray Trevor Twine) correctly. Are you maintaining that the request for published controlled studies to support NLP's claims is a "nonsense request"? I want to make sure I have not misunderstood what your phrase "nonsense request" refers to before I continue with my response. Thank you.

Monica Pignotti, MSW

I am glad that things are starting to clear up, even though the administrators had to take such drastic measure in the end. --Dejakitty 20:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm editing from Brighton in England, I'm not a sockpuppet or a skeptic. Sockpuppeting is clearly not allowed here so I think I’ll give it a miss thank you very much. Von Bergen was my first deep introduction to NLP as I study human resource management and included it in a project. I discovered the Von Bergen’s article after googling and found it here. It got really interesting for me when I saw the various arguments on this article discussion page and they helped me get my head around pseudoscience in HRM.

I took a good look through the research I managed to collect over the last few days, and checked over the article and archives. Devilly, Eisner, Drenth, Lilenfeld, Beyerstein, Von Bergen, and Singer all write concerning the occurrence of the practice of NLP and the problems of its ill-advised adoption by self-helpers, therapists, public bodies, and businesses (Human Resource Management). The opening needs to be far clearer on this in the criticism paragraph. I havn’t got through the Levelt or Winkin papers as they will take a bit of babelfishing. I think this issue could do with better representation in the main body of criticisms too. It will explain things better why scientists are writing their criticisms about it. BrightonRock101 15:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, BrightonRock101. I greatly appreciate your contributions and agree with you. For the record, I want to state here that I live in the United States (California) and have never been to Hong Kong. My background is that I studied NLP for four years (1989-1993) in New York City and completed and was certified in the Practitioner, Master Practitioner and Trainer's trainings. I wanted to make this known so people here would realize that I am familiar with both the NLP proponent point of view and the skeptical point of view on this topic. Monica Pignotti

Hi Monica,

But you have been intouch with Headleydown in one of his other sockpuppet alias (Krishsing66) on your skeptical yahoo group. You didnt seem to know that much about NLP back then as I remember and now you're certified up to trainer level - amazing! Lee1 08:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Why so much of Anti NLP positioning?

I have been referring to wiki for quite some time now and I can say it provides balanced and quite good views on various topics. But I am amazed to see so much of Positioning on this particular topic and over domination of one angle of perspective.

Being in the age of information technology, this article looks like a 10th century Witch test. There are a lot of things that science cannot explain and especially one as subjective as Psychology. In such a case, is it prudent to publish something which is so thoroughly one sided on the topic.

I hope this improves over time.

That's an interesting perspective, because I see just the opposite: NLP proponents making highly misleading claims and statements, attempting to leave out or reverse edits on opposing points of view. Pointing out that unsupported claims are being made is not a "witch test".

Steve Hassan Reference Possibly Misleading

I have known Steve Hassan for 17 years and have worked with him on a number of exit counselling cases (he does not wish to be called a "deprogrammer" so that part needs to be changed). The portrayal of his views on NLP in this article seem misleading and strongly imply that he actively endorses it and built his model of exit counseling centered around NLP when this is not the case. As he states in his book (I will add this reference with a direct quote to the article) he studied NLP in the early 80s but he has concerns, not only about the fact it is being used by cult leaders, but also by the way NLP is being marketed. What he said was that he went back and studied some of NLPs sources (e.g., Satir, Baetson, Erickson, etc.) and is now basing his work on those people, and others who had nothing to do with NLP. To make this more objective, perhaps the best way to resolve this would be to directly quote what Hassan actually wrote. I have his book and will look up the exact quote, cite it and put it into the article.

It's been removed. --Woohookitty 09:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"Users of NLP" section

I removed the entire section for a number of reasons. First of all, it sounded promotional. I have no problem with a short paragraph stating that many organizations use NLP. But what was there was basically promotional material. And it was attracting the kind of POV remarks that we need to avoid here. --Woohookitty 09:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Folks

I'm extremely frustrated with this article. In the last 2-3 weeks, it seems to have gotten worse. It now reads like a promo booklet. Honestly, if this continues, I'm going to take this article off of my WL and just give up. No one here seems to know how to write a Misplaced Pages article. Why do we have all of this bold? We're not here to be "eye catching", which is the only reason for all of this bold. We have sections that repeat other sections. We have block quotes with almost no context. As I've said many times, this is NOT a research paper. We're not here to make arguments. I don't know if people just don't want to listen or what, but frankly, I've had enough of all of it. I'm about ready to say that this is a lost cause and leave you all at it until you get an admin involves that isn't as nice and tolerant as me and Voice. Sorry for the negativity, but it's frustrating to leave a bad article...come back 2 weeks later and somehow it's worse. I don't know what to say. --Woohookitty 09:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

And if you guys want examples, the entire pre-suppositional beliefs section is a mess. For one thing, pre-suppositional is not defined until after it leads a section, which frankly, is kind of dumb. It's mentioned in the sections before ("Foundational assumptions"), but it isn't defined there. I just get so frustrated with you folks. We are writing this for the average person, not for college students. My girlfriend has a masters degree and yet I asked her what pre-suppositional meant and she had no idea. And this is just one small example. There are numerous others where it's written for college educated people, but you cannot write it like that. Most of the readership is not going to be college educated. You need to write it for the average person. I don't know. Maybe the users involved in this article don't know what that means. The other problem with the pre-suppositional section is that it's way way way too long. There has to be a way to truncate some of those sections so they can fit together. Again, we're here to explain things to regular users, not to get into so much detail--Woohookitty 09:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

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