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Lusatian operation?

Pl wiki has an article at pl:Operacja łużycka about which is described as part of the Battle of Berlin, carried out in the second half of April by the elements of the 1st Ukrainian Front south of Berlin, in Lusatia. The operations was carried by Soviet 5th Guard Army, 13 and 52 Army, and the Polish 2nd Army. Battle of Bautzen (1945) was a part of that. Here's a map: File:Operacja luzycka.png. I think I may work on that article, but first I want to double check it's not already covered on en wiki under another name? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:50, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The BoB involved the greater Berlin metropolitan area and its encirclement by the forces of the USSR - other areas may be considered part of a general Soviet operation/drive to the West, but not specifically part of the BoB.HammerFilmFan (talk) 15:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

This article is not just about the Battle in Berlin. The section Battle outside Berlin needs to be expanded, but any expansion needs to be based on reliable sources, preferable in English and it should not give undue weight to Polish army operations which only made up a small percentage of the Soviet's combined operation. At the moment the whole capture of what became the south of East Germany is covered by the sentence: "The successes of the 1st Ukrainian Front during the first nine days of the battle meant that by 25 April, they were occupying large swathes of the area south and south west of Berlin." So a description of what Soviet forces went where, when they arrived and how much resistance they met needs to be added to this article. -- PBS (talk) 09:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC

Section about the Battle of Seelow Heights

I suggest that we remove the casualty figures for the Battle of the Seelow Heights from this article. The Soviet casualty figure is not entirely undisputed, but I think there is not room in this article for several perspectives and figures. There is a separate article for the Battle of the Seelow hights, I suggest that we use this article for the casualty figures.

(I find it interesting that we use Beevor as a source for the figure German casualties, but his figure for the Soviet casualties is not even mentioned.)

EriFr (talk) 22:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Goebbels's fevered prophecies

See WP:BRD.

From the history of the article

• 07:17, 16 January 2014‎ IIIraute(Undid revision 585381854 by YMB29
• 07:20, 16 January 2014‎ YMB29 (Undid revision 590935037 by IIIraute (talk) No reason given for revert.)
• 11:12, 16 January 2014‎ PBS . . (reverted the revert. It is a change in emphasis and needs discussion to see if there is a consensus for such a change. What is the evidence that it was a horde or that if it were a horde was that it was Asian and not European?)

As I see it there are several problems in the change made by YMB29.

• "During, and in the days immediately following the assault"

to

• "According to Antony Beevor, during, and in"

implies that this is only the opinion of an odd-ball not not a generally accepted fact. This is not so.

Change of

• "and despite Soviet efforts to supply food and rebuild the city, starvation remained a problem (White 2003, 126)."
• "Historian Atina Grossmann claims that for women 'Goebbels's fevered prophecies about the threat from the Asiatic hordes seemed to be fulfilled'" (Grossmann 2009, p. 51)

Removes a fact and inserts a Nazi propaganda term.

1. What is the evidence that this is was a generally held view among the women who were raped?
2. What is the evidence that it was a horde?
3. If it were a horde, what evidence is there that it was specifically an Asian horde and not European horde or a combined horde?

-- PBS (talk) 11:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with PBS, it should be excluded; as should the addition of: "According to historian Oleg Rzheshevsky, such portrayal of the Red Army is a return to views that were instilled by Nazi propaganda and Neo-Nazi historians." (This was part of the revert, above but not specifically mentioned) Both per WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kierzek (talk • contribs) 13:53,16 January 2014‎

I second you last point. -- PBS (talk) 16:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

For those who's first language is not English there is an important difference between:

• wikt::Host: A multitude of people arrayed as an army; used also in religious senses, as: Heavenly host (of angels)
• wikt:Horde: A wandering troop or gang; especially, a clan or tribe of a nomadic people (originally Tatars) migrating from place to place for the sake of pasturage, plunder, etc.; a predatory multitude.

The Red Army was a host (A multitude of people arrayed as an army) not a horde (A wandering troop or gang). -- PBS (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the topic?

That quote about Asiatic hordes comes directly from Atina Grossmann.

Something may be a "generally accepted fact" to you, but here we have to attribute facts to sources (see WP:ASF).

Historian Rzheshevsky is just as valid of a source as Beevor. You have no right to remove what he said. -YMB29 (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I have a right to challenge and do per, WP:undue and clearly there is a WP:NPOV problems with the statements you want to add. At this point the burden is on you; if you obtain consensus, then so be it. But you don't have it at this time. Kierzek (talk) 02:23, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The changes were there for over a month, so if there was an obvious violation of something, someone would have reverted them much sooner.

You have the right to challenge, but no right to remove sources because you don't like them (see WP:IJDLI). You have not even provided any real arguments.

Go to the NPOV or RS noticeboards and prove your case. Otherwise, stop reverting valid text that is properly sourced. -YMB29 (talk) 03:07, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

And when you challenge information from a source, you put tags like or , not revert everything. -YMB29 (talk) 03:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I have been on here a long time, I know how things work. The talk page is the first and foremost place to go. Your original addition was only mere opinions which were clearly bias and with no factual basis stated in support of them. Your edits were reverted, YOU are to discuss them before reverting them back because YOU don't like the result. Kierzek (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Why did it take you so long to revert them?

Strange that you are here for a long time and did not learn that reverting sourced text because you don't like what it says is not the way to go.

So the properly cited text is merely my opinion?

How is it "clearly biased and with no factual basis stated in support"? -YMB29 (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't have time for snarky comments. Lets stick to the facts. You originally inserted WP:UNDUE opinion which states an opinion without any supporting facts, if you cannot see that truth, I can't help you. Kierzek (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I can say the same thing about Beevor and others, only opinions... -YMB29 (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, I think you misunderstood some things.

The part about Soviet efforts to supply food and rebuild the city was not removed by me. I just moved it to the next paragraph.

Grossmann actually implies that Nazi propaganda was right about certain things. She used the Nazi propaganda term, not me. -YMB29 (talk) 18:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Important also is that the user who reverted my edit (made on December 9th) without any explanation followed me here right after reverting me in another article.

That should tell you something... -YMB29 (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

About NPOV, it would be a violation of NPOV if the accusations of Western historians like Beevor are left unchallenged. -YMB29 (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

See WP:BRD, The idea is that you make a bold edit, it is reverted you then discuses those edits before reverting again. Three editors have clearly decided that you revert is not acceptable, so revering back in the version you prefer is against consensus and it is disruptive. The current wording is a based on a long discussion involving quite a few editors (so I suggest that you start by reading the talk archives). I also suggest that you consider the points I have made above, and address them. To take the sentences one at a time

• "During, and in the days immediately following the assault"

to

• "According to Antony Beevor, during, and in"

the implies that this is only the opinion of an odd-ball not not a generally accepted fact. This is not so, as the sentence has citations from four different sources. -- PBS (talk) 07:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Did you check those citations? The statement is supported by Beevor and Grossmann. I did not touch the sources, but clarified what they say and attributed the statements to the authors.

Have you read WP:ASF?

I added other sources that criticize the statements, so what is wrong with that?

Three editors decided? Are you counting the user who followed me in here and made the original revert without any reason?

The other user above has no reasons besides "I don't like it", while you wrongly accuse me of representing a fact as opinion.

Also, where were you all last month when the changes were made? -YMB29 (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

"Are you counting the user who followed me in here and made the original revert without any reason" yes and I hope that user:IIIraute will confirm it. PBS (talk) 18:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Making blind reverts is disruptive... -YMB29 (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Besides my points stated above, if it is just "propaganda" and "myth", then why is it that after the summer of 1945, Soviet soldiers caught raping civilians were usually punished to some degree, ranging from arrest to execution. Naimark, p. 92. The rapes continued until the winter of 1947–48, when Soviet occupation authorities finally confined Soviet troops to strictly guarded posts and camps completely separating them from the residential population in the Soviet zone of Germany. Naimark, p. 79.

O.A. Rzheshevsky admits he never READ Beevor’s book's source notes. He also flip-flops in his opinion which is not stated herein: Rzheshevsky states that acts such as robbery and sexual assault are inevitable parts of war (then they cannot be myth!).

Further, it is NOT just Beevor who has researched and written as to USSR Red Army rapes and war crimes. For example, Richard Overy, a historian, has criticized the viewpoint held by Russians, asserting that they refuse to acknowledge Soviet war crimes committed during the war, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history." Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

No one said that it was only Beevor. Many Western historians accuse the Soviet Army of mass rape and many Russian historians criticize Western historians for misrepresenting facts and creating myths.

This difference of opinions has to be reflected in the article text, see WP:NPOV.

Rzheshevsky and other Russian historians do not say that robbery and rapes did not happen, but they question the scale of these crimes that Beevor and others claim.

Also, Rzheshevsky only read pieces of the book at the time the interview was taken, not that he never looked at it more thoroughly later... -YMB29 (talk) 15:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

"No one said that it was only Beevor" you may not have said it but the change in the article text from "During, and in the days immediately following the assault" to "According to Antony Beevor, during, and in" implies it is Beevor assertion alone although the sentence contains citations to four authors. To answer your question have I read "WP:ASF" yes I have (as someone with an account that is over 10 yeas old it would be surprising if I had not)! and I draw you attention to the first sentence of the last paragraph of that advise. The facts are that multiple rapes took place and no serious historian argues that they did not happen. The only points that are argued about are the scale (which is addressed in a footnote) and whether such rapes constituted more than a moral crime -- which is deliberately not addressed in the wording you altered. You recent change to the wording of the first sentence under discussion by attribution it to one historian is a breach of WP:UNDUE. -- PBS (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

First of all, that sentence said a lot of things with different citations stuck to different parts of it. It was confusing, so I broke it down and clarified things.

The part that said "engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder" was cited only to Beevor.

The Bellamy and Grossmann citations were stuck to the part that said "and in the days immediately following the assault" in the beginning of the sentence. -YMB29 (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I clarified what Grossmann writes in the next sentence. The Bellamy citation was to page 670 of his book, which only says that the looting and rapes subsided, so I created a new sentence for this. -YMB29 (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

That is my point, as well, you have implied Beevor is the only one by your edit. I have stated valid reasons as to the problems as has PBS; it appears it is you YMB29 who "don't like it." Kierzek (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Read what I wrote above, that statement in question was originally cited only to Beevor. If you want to add citations to other sources, do so.

All you have stated is that you don't like the text and the sources that I added. -YMB29 (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Repeating a misquote of my points does not help your arguments, YMB29. Kierzek (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Well you keep on repeating that the sourced text I added somehow violates WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV. -YMB29 (talk) 05:16, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that Kierzek have shown great patience and restraint in dealing with your (YMB29) edits which are a clear breach of the WP:BRD process and the consensus policy. So continuing in that vein for the moment and attempting to reach agreement with you.

1. Do you or do you not agree that most reputable historians agree that mass rapes took place (even if the number of those rapes are disputed)?
2. If you do not then how many histories do we have to cite for you to agree to the original wording of the sentence you changed to start "According to Antony Beevor".

-- PBS (talk) 21:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Who is a reputable historian and who is not is a matter of opinion.

I don't have a problem if the start of the sentence is changed to "According to Western historians like Antony Beevor" or something like that, if a few more proper citations are added.

However, I don't see how the statement that follows can be presented as fact, because it is debatable.

Also, I don't think that the WP:BRD process is intended to be used to revert sourced information without giving a proper explanation. There was no explanation at all for the first revert. -YMB29 (talk) 05:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

A proper explanation was given and you still reverted. I suggest as an act of good faith that you revert your revert and see if you have a consensus for those changes.

Do you have any reliable historians who deny that mass rapes took place? If not you insistence on "Western" is not appropriate. -- PBS (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

You did not see the sources I added?

Kierzek did not give a proper explanation, only accused me of violating WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.

You only gave a proper explanation for reverting the "According to Antony Beevor" part, but I explained to you that, given the citations that were there initially, my changes were accurate.

If my changes were reverted right after they were made (and not over a month after by a user making a disruptive revert), then I would probably have to wait for a consensus, but now it is a different situation I think. -YMB29 (talk) 18:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

YMB29, please stop bickering about process. You have been edit-warring to insert your preferred text but it is disputed by every other editor who has commented or acted to revert it. You have no consensus to make the changes you want to make. Binksternet (talk) 18:24, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Any real arguments or only those based on WP:IJDLI? -YMB29 (talk) 18:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources that deny that mass rapes took place? -- PBS (talk) 18:51, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I added them to the article:

According to Oleg Rzheshevsky, the president of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, such portrayal of the Red Army is a return to views that were instilled by Nazi propaganda and Neo-Nazi historians.

Rzheshevsky, Oleg A. (2002), "Берлинская операция 1945 г.: дискуссия продолжается" , Мир истории (in Russian) (4).

Yelena Senyavskaya, historian at the Russian Academy of Sciences, writes that the myth of relative mass rape by Soviet troops, while there is supposedly no evidence of this in the areas occupied by the Western allies, is spread in the West and used for putting political pressure on Russia.

Senyavskaya, Yelena (2006), Противники России в войнах ХХ века. Эволюция «образа врага» в сознании армии и общества (in Russian), Moscow: ROSSPEN, ISBN 5-8243-0782-2.

-YMB29 (talk) 18:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

You have two Russian historians saying Soviet soldiers did not rape as much as they have been accused of. Do they have estimates of how many rapes? Or do they just say the Western sources are exaggerated? I think we need their estimates so that hard numbers can be compared. At any rate, these two historians do not erase previous scholarship, they add to it. We will present the reader with both views. We will not pick which view is correct. Binksternet (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what I did with my edits, so why did you revert them? -YMB29 (talk) 21:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

And yes those Russian historians say that the estimates are very exaggerated and based on dubious methods of calculation. -YMB29 (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

You did not put hard quantities of estimated rapes into your edits. You implied that Beevor was the only one who thought the Soviets committed mass rape in Berlin. You also made the two Soviet historians sound revisionist or reactionary rather than calmly assessing the facts. I thought your preferred wording was not neutral at all. Binksternet (talk) 21:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

How is it not neutral? If you think that it is not neutral then change it. Why revert everything?

The statement "engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder..." is only cited to Beevor. Look at that sentence now.

Why do hard quantity estimates matter, especially in this article? -YMB29 (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Hard numbers matter because they allow us to sift through the biased viewpoints, including the ones you brought forward that horrifically set 150k as a "modest" number of Soviet rapes in Germany. Binksternet (talk) 01:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

What have I brought "forward that horrifically set 150k as a "modest" number of Soviet rapes"?

I still don't understand why you are asking for numbers... -YMB29 (talk) 02:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I am categorically opposed to statements implying that mass rape did not happen in Berlin. A ten-minute search on Google Scholar will show multiple independent historians reporting that Red Army forces committed mass rapes. The scale of the rapes is up for contention, using scholarly or academically sound sources, but YMB29, you are warned (a) not to imply that these rapes did not take place, and (b) not to edit war. I encourage anyone to report instances of WP:3RR to me. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Going beyond Beevor, eg. Bos, Pascale R. "Feminists Interpreting the Politics of Wartime Rape: Berlin, 1945; Yugoslavia, 1992–1993." Signs 31, no. 4 (2006): 995-1025. ; Grossmann, Atina. "A question of silence: The rape of German women by occupation soldiers." October 72 (1995): 43-63. ; Messerschmidt, James W. "The Forgotten Victims of World War II." Violence against women 12, no. 7 (2006): 706-712. ; Ruby Reid-Cunningham, Allison. "Rape as a Weapon of Genocide." Genocide studies and prevention 3, no. 3 (2008): 279-296. This listing is a selective list of the first two pages of the Scholar search. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:16, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

First of all, what are you talking about? Where did I say that rapes did not happen? I am talking about mass rape as claimed by historians like Beevor. Please understand what is going on before issuing such warnings.

If you want to say that it is not just Beevor then add the proper citations to the article. -YMB29 (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

@YMB29: the quotes in the two sources you give to not seem to deny that mass rapes took place instead Rzheshevsky tries to say that it "is a return to views that were instilled by Nazi propaganda and Neo-Nazi historians", this is a classic example of not refuting a point but trying to besmirch it by associating it with tainted sources ("tainted by association"), Has Rzheshevsky published anything using primary sources to show that mass rapes did not take place? Looking at what you say Senyavskay writes he does not deny that mass rapes took place just that similar mass rapes in the west have been ignored. Now that may or may not be true (but it is outside the scope of this article), and Senyavskay is not denying that mass rapes took place in Berlin. PBS (talk) 21:33, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Both sources do deny that mass rape took place as portrayed by Beevor and others. I did not include more details when adding the text, because this article is not specifically about the topic.

Below is more from Senyavskaya from an interview I just found. -YMB29 (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

-YMB29 (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

AFAICT Senyavskay does not deny that mass rapes took place, he just argues that the rapes in the east are exaggerated and those in the west downplayed, therefore he is querying the numbers not denying that mass rapes took place. The problems with the numbers are already covered by the footnote j in the article. If you like this can be expanded to include this historian, but it does not affect the conclusion that mass rapes took place, and so attributing it to "Beevor" or "Western historians" is a distortion. -- PBS (talk) 22:05, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

How is that not a denial of mass rape?

Her book that I cited for the article directly says myth of mass rape:

In this context, the mythology relating to the mass rape of German women by Soviet soldiers, with the alleged absence of such evidence in the areas of occupation of the Western allies, is noteworthy. This topic, in the context of the general political pressure on Russia, is actively exaggerated in the Western media.

-YMB29 (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

And what is wrong with attributing that statement to Beevor if he is the only one cited for it? -YMB29 (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I think, given the quotes that I provided (by serious historians in Russia), it is clear that mass rape by Soviet troops is not a fact and so WP:ASF must be applied: The text of Misplaced Pages articles should not assert opinions but should assert facts. When a statement is a fact (a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute) it should be asserted without prefixing it with "(Source) says that ...", and when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it should be attributed to the source that offered the opinion using inline-text attribution. -YMB29 (talk) 23:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

-YMB29 (talk) 23:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Senyavskay makes the comment "mass distribution of this figure" and ignores the other primary sources that Beevor presents particularly Soviet sources. Nor has she tried refute the 100s of other primary sources such as diaries and interviews used in other publications, all she has done is question one statistical analysis -- which is already done in the Misplaced Pages article.

As to your question about attributing Beevor in the body of the text I have repeatedly explained why it is inappropriate (for example see my first posting to this section), so I see no reason to do so again. -- PBS (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

So you are going to ignore WP:ASF? ...when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it should be attributed to the source... This is not clear to you?

When you cite a specific source for a specific statement, you have to attribute that statement (if it is disputed) to that source.

That statistical analysis is the basis for the accusations of mass rape and figures like 2 million. Beevor uses Soviet sources also, but they don't prove mass rape; they actually serve as evidence that the Soviets seriously tried to keep order and discipline.

Also, your above analysis and criticism of Senyavskaya is OR. -YMB29 (talk) 01:46, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I probably won't be able to reply for a week, but I think the changes I just made are fair. -YMB29 (talk) 05:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

YMB29, I have reverted your edits, in accordance with the majority consensus. However, we are getting nowhere with this edit war, and you are now traveling away for a week. Thus, putting my admin hat on, I've locked the page also for ten days. Honestly I'm not entirely sure which version to leave as the locked version, but you must admit this is En-wiki and not Ru-wiki, so there is some value in an English-language consensus. It's time to stop the changing of pages without consensus and go to the next stage in this process: the drafting of paragraphs on the talk page for inclusion once talkpage consensus is reached.

Thus would people kindly consider starting to draft compromise and inclusive language? PBS, I know you're a pretty experienced editor here. Would you consider drafting yourself something along the lines of 'Beevor xxx etc says.. But recent Russian scholarship says ..' Would ask you in the interests of fairness to avoid 'asserts', 'claims' 'argues' etc, and simply stick to 'says' on both sides. Those are just my drafting ideas - feel free to use anything of value.

I am now going to stop taking a position here and simply referee both sides. Regards to all, and YMB29, hope your week's absence goes well. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:24, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Week break

Ok, I am back, thanks.

I would like to know what exactly PBS and others don't agree with as far as my latest changes go?

If "argues" and "claims" should be avoided, the sentence that mentions the Russian historians can be changed to "Russian historians say that these crimes occurred, just like in other occupation zones, but were not widespread".

I don't see what the problem is with presenting the view of Western historians like Beevor and what Russian historians have to say, especially since this is done in other articles that touch on the topic (see Rape during the occupation of Germany and Anthony Beevor). -YMB29 (talk) 04:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

"According to Antony Beevor, Atina Grossmann and other Western historians," What does "Western historians" mean? Have you any evidence that it is a view only held by "Western historians", and yet again you are construction a sentence that implies a bias and that such views are not a major view but mealy a minority one. "Russian historians argue that these crimes occurred, just like in other occupation zones" One is not talking about occupation zones this is about a battle field and the immediate aftermath of the battle. Secondly what is your evidence that mass rape took place by British soldiers while the British were fighting in Germany or in British zone of occupation in Germany? -- PBS (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The point is if you only read historians like Beevor you would think that the Soviets only committed those crimes, which is not true. There is of course evidence that it was not only the Soviets. I don't know why you are asking me for evidence, as if this is not mentioned in other articles. Also, the statement does not say that any side committed mass crimes.

However, I don't really care if that part is removed.

"According to Western historians..." does not imply that the view is a minority one. What evidence do you have that it is universally accepted as fact and WP:ASF should not apply to it? The fact that there are serious historians disputing it means that WP:ASF should apply. -YMB29 (talk) 02:43, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

If you mean "non-Russian historians" why use the term "Western historians"? What does "Western historians" mean? It is you who have opened the door my second question with the words you have suggested inserting into the article "these crimes occurred, just like in other occupation zones" what is your evidence that mass rapes similar to those in Berlin took place in cities such as Hamburg which was on the British line of advance and later in the British sector? Besides this is not an article about the invasion of Germany it is an article about the Berlin campaign commonly called the Battle of Berlin, and what happened in other battles and campaigns is outside the scope of this article. -- PBS (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Again you did not read what I wrote carefully.

The statement does not say that mass crimes occurred anywhere and I said that I don't care if that part ("just like in other occupation zones") is removed, so there is no sense in arguing about that.

Beevor and Grossmann are not Western historians? You seriously don't know what Western refers to? If you are so against it, "Western historians" can be changed to "other historians". -YMB29 (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

So the wording you are proposing is now "

According to Antony Beevor, Atina Grossmann and other Wester historians, during, and in the days immediately following, the assault, in many areas of the city, vengeful Soviet troops (often rear echelon units) engaged in mass rape and looting. The looting and rapes gradually subsided. Russian historians argue that these crimes occurred,just like in other occupation zones, but were not widespread as claimed in the West.

Why mentioned "Antony Beevor, Atina Grossmann" unless it is to imply a minority view minority view? The sentence can be written "According to historians during, ...", but that then begs the question why not what is there now "During, ..."?

BTW I did read what you wrote carefully: "...engaged in mass rape and looting. The looting and rapes gradually subsided. Russian historians argue that these crimes occurred, just like in other occupation zones, but were not widespread as claimed in the West." As such you wrote that Russian historians argue that mass rape and looting took place in "other occupation zones". What is the evidence that there was mass rape in the British occupation zone? Why the comparison with other zones? Let us suppose that there was mass rape in the French zone (Beevor in his overview book on WWII states that some French troops did such things) would you consider it appropriate to write in an article called "Battle for Württemberg" "French ... engaged in mass rape and looting. The looting and rapes gradually subsided. French historians argue that these crimes also occurred in the Soviet zone and was not as widespread as Anglo-Saxon historians claim"? why mention the Soviet Zone in an article about a battle in a different zone and why Anglo-Saxon unless one wants to imply the usual Anglo-Saxon slur against the great French Nation and language to sow FUD to help discredit the claim?

The footnote already makes it clear that the statistics on which the numbers it are based is open to question which is why they are not in the text. The major problem with including Russian historian's qualifications and no historians from another nationality, is also the opposite of FUD: MRDA which is something that most politically aware Brits would read into it. -- PBS (talk) 12:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

When I said read what I wrote carefully I meant the previous comment, and it looks like you still did not read it carefully. I told you that the part about other occupation zones can be removed, but you are still arguing about it.

Also, again, I did not imply that any side committed mass crimes.

Why Beevor and Grossmann are mentioned? Because they are the ones cited...

The claim of mass crimes by the Soviets in Berlin is not a fact for which there is no serious dispute, so you have to follow WP:ASF. -YMB29 (talk) 15:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

And the wording I am proposing now is:

According to Antony Beevor, Atina Grossmann and other historians, during, and in the days immediately following, the assault, in many areas of the city, vengeful Soviet troops (often rear echelon units) engaged in mass rape and looting. The looting and rapes gradually subsided. Russian historians argue that such crimes occurred, but were not widespread.

-YMB29 (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

"The claim of mass crimes by the Soviets in Berlin is not a fact for which there is no serious dispute" Which historian denies that mass rape took place (not the scale of the crime but the crime of mass rape)? If they deny it what are the primary sources that they cite to dispute "other historian" analysis? -- PBS (talk) 13:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I quoted Russian historians disputing Beevor's claims and you are still asking me this? -YMB29 (talk) 15:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I have not explained myself clearly I am not asking if anyone disputes the numbers which Beevor has stated. That is covered by a footnote and is not in the text we are discussing. I asked "Which historian denies that mass rape took place (not the scale of the crime but the crime of mass rape)?".

OK, what I have done is read the full translated article from which you quoted an extract. Elena Sinyavskaya (8 May 2013) The Red Army “Rape of Germany” was Invented by Goebbels Komsomolskaya Pravda (original Russian). The first point to make is that articles from tabloids are not reliable sources. But leaving that aside (at least explains the truly awful style of the piece -- like reading something in The Sun) we could use a couple of lines from it:

The historian Elena Sinyavskaya has stated that mass rapes did not occur, and that "amongst there are no differences of opinion concerning this subject and there cannot be…".

Note

1. Elena Sinyavskaya cites an official Soviet record of the military prosecutor of the 1st Belorussian Front to support her position as it states that in the seven army 1st Belorussian Front during the period from 22 April to 5 May 1945 124 crimes against civilians were recorded, including 72 of rape.

-- PBS (talk) 18:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Articles from tabloids are not reliable sources? Funny that you say this when the main source in the disputed sentence is a tabloid article by Beevor ... I can also say that its style is awful.

It is not just Senyavskaya (that argues against claims of mass rape). See the quote from Gareev above and Rzheshevsky basically says the same thing. So for this article, the statement can be more general, like "Russian historians say..." or "Russian historians such as Senyavskaya and Gareev argue..." -YMB29 (talk) 20:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian is not a tabloid and is considered a reliable source. The think is that in this instance an interview with a professional Russian historian we can probably use it. The wording I quoted says every professional Russian historian, so I am not sure what it is that you are trying to add. -- PBS (talk) 12:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I have reverted your change and I will revert it again (We are still discussing changes WP:BRD). If an historian says that the crimes subsided then QED it supports "During, and in the days immediately following the assault," otherwise there could not be a reduction in the levels of crime. If you persist then I will ask the article to be locked (again) on the previous stable version. -- PBS (talk) 18:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Did you even try to check the cited page in the book? It is ridiculous to stick citations to text that they don't support. You cannot deduct what the source does not explicitly say, see WP:OR. -YMB29 (talk) 20:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Some of the book is online. If you search on the word rape it returns several pages and if you like we can add page 660 to the citation which is specifically talking about Berlin

... in the cellars throughout the spacious, one ultra-modern city German civilians.... And for the women, in particular, there was the hideous spectre of multiple rape, not only condoned but, we can be pretty sure, legally sanctioned by the political officers speaking for the Soviet government.

So then why don't you add the proper citations instead of reverting my change that corrects the issue with the current citation? -YMB29 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Your edit did not correct the issue. Y edit made per your request. -- PBS (talk) 12:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

My edit added the correct text to the existing citation. -YMB29 (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The point is that theses conclusions are drawn by all/most historians of the battle (with it seems the exception of all Russian historians) and have been since the histories of the 1960s, for example The World at War series interviews a Berliner who describes it as a matter of fact and "A Woman in Berlin: Eight Weeks in the Conquered City" was widely available in public libraries in English speaking countries from the time it was first published in English in 1954 (interestingly it was not widely available in Germany until quite recently), so it is not as if this is new or surprising facts. What is given in the citations is a representative sample from some historians who have published in the 21st century, but it is not new history and many more citation could be added by simply doing a Google book search on , but I do not see the point in that. -- PBS (talk) 12:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, publications about this started appearing in the West from the beginning of the Cold War. Beevor just popularized the topic. So what is the problem with attributing the conclusions to Western historians and adding what Russian historians have to say? -YMB29 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Western historians"? Please give a definition, or do you mean non-Russian historians? -- PBS (talk) 01:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

You are asking me what "Western historians" means again...

If you don't like that, it can be US and British historians. -YMB29 (talk) 02:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

But it is not just British and American historians. It is also other nationalities as well. The reason why British and American historians are cited here is because this is English Misplaced Pages which favours the use of English language sources. Do you have an example of any academics other than Russians who dispute that mass rapes took place? -- PBS (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Why does that matter? You are disputing that it is not Western historians, so I have to be asking you for an example of a non-Western historian who writes about mass Soviet crimes.

To British and US historians you can add German ones and who else? That still means it is Western historians... -YMB29 (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

And here are some sources:

Western historians have generally accepted that rape and other forms of troop violence were committed primarily by the Red Army and that Allied soldiers were much better behaved in the western zones. A recent work, however, illustrates the extent to which troop violence was also a problem in the western zones.

In his book on the fall of Berlin in 1945, published in 2002, the British historian Antony Beevor graphically described the mass rapes of German and other women by Red Army soldiers. The Russian ambassador to Britain and leading Russian historians denounced this volume as neo-Nazi propaganda, questioning Beevor's sources while characterizing Soviet reprisals against German civilians for Russian sufferings during the previous years of war as well-justified revenge. Beevor pointed out that his book relied heavily upon evidence from Russian archives to document its allegations and other prominent Western historians defended the accuracy of his sources.

Western historians have written at length about the large-scale rape and violence committed by Russian soldiers in Germany at the end of the war. Russian historians, offended that the glory of the victorious Red Army should be so tarnished, have denied that anything of the kind happened at all or at least on that scale.

Western historians would later estimate that at least 2 million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers, many of them repeatedly. Tens of thousands committed suicide.

So "According to Western historians..." is accurate and should be added to the article. -YMB29 (talk) 18:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I am going to add it. -YMB29 (talk) 05:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The fact that only "72" were reported does not mean that is all that occurred. And given the fact this article is only about the "Battle of Berlin" and ends "In June 1945..." then the time of subsidence would be after that timeframe. Kierzek (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The time frame in this article is 16 April – 2 May 1945. -YMB29 (talk) 04:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

YMB29, I was quoting the Aftermath section of the article. Kierzek (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

@Kierzek: I think that the discrepancy between the stats can be answered by reading page 109 of Looting and Rape in Wartime: Law and Change in International Relations by Tuba Inal. -- PBS (talk) 12:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. What does that answer? I just see a lot of speculation based on what Stalin supposedly said. -YMB29 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

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Subject line says it all. If a bot is supposed to do this, it doesn't seem to be working. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 18:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

• david, this is disruptive mess clogging up User:AnomieBOT/PERTable and Category:Misplaced Pages protected edit requests is very inappropriate. I've closed the request and added an appropriate list request on WP:RFPP#Missing protection padlocks. Thank you. Technical 13 (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

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