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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Momento

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

• Momento (talk · contribs) / Momento (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User imposing the sanction

• The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) / The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Notification of User imposing sanction

• I have informed The Blade of the Northern Light of this appeal.

Sanction being appealed

• Indefinite topic ban since November 16th 2012 from all articles and discussions related to Prem Rawat for persistent battleground behaviour

Correct link to the notification: Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs)

Thank you.MOMENTO (talk) 09:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Momento

On November 15th 2012 I was indefinitely topic-banned by The Blade of the Northern Lights, for “persistent battleground behaviour” but he provides no evidence or diffs to support that charge or any other.

HISTORY In the second half of 2012 the Prem Rawat article resembled a battleground but I did not instigate it nor did I participate in it. On the contrary the main reason for that situation is the behaviour of one editor, PatW who has been warned for incivility and battleground behaviour nineteen times on his talk page and countless times on the PR talk pages.

In the three months before I was topic banned PatW was warned twice by The Blade of the Northern Lights for his incivility. On August 25th - ‘'everyone, especially you PatW, needs to cool it. I get that each "side" here is frustrated with the other, but it's not that hard to review what you're saying and remove the invective from your post before hitting the save button”. And again on September 3rd on PatW's talk page - “(Pat) you have to be more tactful in your approach. I came very close to banning you from the topic, but I've decided I should give you at least one personal note to alert you to the fact that you're on my radar screen" but to no avail.

On the same day on the Prem Rawat talk page a new uninvolved editor had this to say - “I came to this page to see if the allegations being made about Memento's editing were true, but what strikes me as more egregious are the constant personal attacks by PatW and Surdas. Because of the hostility and unconstructive comments by those two, I'm unwilling to get involved at this point.

And on September 9th a new uninvolved editor had this to say - “PatW's incivility and accusations are somewhat beyond the pale. What he has done in the discussion…is attack”.. “Pat I don't like being attacked, don't appreciate it at all…Attacking other editors out of hand whatever the history on that article will only bring you problems”. And “Lets be clear (Pat). You have insulted me from the moment I stepped on the PR page…I removed myself from the PR article , but you continue to attack me as if the article and its problems are my fault…I won't continue to work on a page where I am consistently attacked".

On November 14th 2012 PatW expanded his battleground to Jimbo Wales talk page calling me an “unconscionable idiot” Rather than take exception to PatW’s disgraceful attack on a very public page The Blade of the Northern Lights decided to ban me. And then, after telling Rumiton that it wouldn't be fair to topic ban him since Rumiton hadn't returned "to what got him banned” in April, TBOTNL banned him anyway despite seven months of non-battleground editing. PatW described his banning as “I have managed to get myself 'blown up' by my own bomb”. Exactly, PatW has been hurling bombs for years.

Despite being Topic Banned, PatW continued his war on Jimbo Wales talk page and on November 20th 2012 he was blocked "for deliberately attempting to link a Misplaced Pages editor to his real life identity".

SUMMARY: No evidence was presented that shows me involved in “battleground behaviour” or incivility. No evidence was presented that show me editing in a POV or inappropriate way. In fact, no evidence of any sort justifies this ban.

@The Blade of the Northern Light comment of 17:18, 7 February 2014: Here is a link that details the edits I made, why they were made, the policy that prompted the change and the edits I made that TBOTNL didn't include that removed "positive" but superfluous material. The overall intention was to improve readability by removing the superfluous material both positive and negative that had been inserted by opposing factions in order to try and maintain POV balance. NOTE: The Prem Rawat article was being watched by 446 editors and 17 editors had edited the article in the preceding month, all of whom have the opportunity to object to edits clearly proposed in the talk page and none of them objected.MOMENTO (talk) 19:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@Sandfstein comment 21:50, 7 February 2014 : The desire to make the "Prem Rawat article better" is not the same as attempting to portray "Prem Rawat in a more positive light". I am what WP:SPA describes and allows as "a single-purpose account (who is a) well-intentioned editor with a niche interest". You have looked at the edits that TBOTNL provided to justify my ban and found they "are not on their face problematic and valid editorial reasons are imaginable for them". The very evidence that TBOTNL presented to show I am engaging in "battleground behaviour" shows the exact opposite. I am "editing appropriately and collaboratively to add knowledge in a niche area" and my editing is, in fact, "compatible with the goals of this project". Given that you "wouldn't have imposed the topic ban based on the evidence presented here by the sanctioning admin" it's hard to imagine your logic in extending the ban. Misplaced Pages needs experts and experts should be encouraged to edit Misplaced Pages, not banned because their expertise is limited to a niche area.MOMENTO (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

@Steven Zhang comment of 02:07, 8 February 2014: Would like to respond to Steven Zhang but, as per TBOTNL, no diffs are presented to support his POV.MOMENTO (talk) 02:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

@. EdJohnston comment of 9 February 2014: It's easy to be blocked seven times when editors are too lazy to examine the facts that disagree with their prejudices. Perhaps you can supply my with the diffs you found that support your opinion? Here's one from me.MOMENTO (talk) 03:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

@Little Olive Oil comment 9 February 2014: Yes, it is incredible to see the whole process of arbitration turned on its head to further people's personal agenda. Ironically I can't think of a Wiki policy or guideline that hasn't been trashed in this AE.MOMENTO (talk) 09:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

DAY 3 ROUND UP: Having failed to provide any evidence or diffs to justify the original sanction or deny this appeal, the focus has been shifted to ban me as an SPA despite no evidence of improper editing and clear evidence to the contrary..MOMENTO (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

DAY 4 ROUND UP: We now have four editors who have decided to ignore the fact that we are at WP:AE to judge my appeal of a specific sanction (Indefinitely topic-banned by The Blade of the Northern Lights, for “persistent battleground behaviour”). Rather than accept the fact that no evidence or diffs have been provided to justify the original sanction and the ban should therefore be lifted these four editors have side tracked the appeal and turned it into an evidence free witch hunt. Two reasons for extending the ban are given, one that I was sanction in 2010 and therefore should be sanctioned again and the other is that I'm an SPA which means I should be sanctioned. No evidence is given for either.MOMENTO (talk) 04:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

CONCLUSION: Since TBOTNL has not been able to present any evidence to justify “an indefinite topic ban for persistent battleground behaviour” my appeal is successful and my ban must now be lifted. If any editors would like to open their own AE against me, go right ahead but this AE is over.MOMENTO (talk) 09:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Blade of the Northern Lights

My wiki-syntax is a little rusty right now, so I apologize in advance if my diffs are a little tough to navigate. When ArbCom looked at the bans I implemented in the days immediately afterward, in my statement there I pointed to a series of edits made in the days immediately before the topic ban; they're linked at said talkpage, I'll put them here for convenience. I'm not especially familiar with Rawat, but it's extremely obvious that these edits were removing criticism from reliable sources and slanting the article in a very pro-Rawat direction. The first several threads of Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 50 contain the discussion on the talkpage, and it makes it yet more obvious that this was the intent. If you click a few diffs ahead, you'll see DeCausa (talk · contribs) wholesale reverted said changes here and, later that day, Jimbo Wales (talk · contribs) re-added some more criticism which Momento et al. had moved and removed. In his capacity as an editor Jimbo has spent some time handling the Prem Rawat article, which is an extremely long-running problem area, and the day that I implemented all the topic bans there was a fairly brief thread at Jimbo's talkpage wherein he expressed serious concerns about the state of the article as it was at the time.

As with Rumiton's ban, I discussed this with @Steven Zhang:, who has years of experience mediating at this article. He and I saw pretty much eye to eye on the intractability of the problem, and he too agreed the edits referenced above were obviously not neutral. And just as a quick note to any admins unfamiliar with the situation, the article at the time was under article probation and not the standard AE sanctions. When ArbCom looked at the situation they explicitly noted that what I did was in keeping with the sanctions in place, and several of them expressed their own concerns about the editing which was occurring before implementing the topic bans. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll see if I can pull everything apart in my big diff above; note that I'm not giving my own point of view on the truth or validity of any additions or removals. This is a removal of a well-sourced point of view that Rawat's movement was only to line his pockets. This is an edit which Momento agreed to on the talkpage, which obfuscates factual information regarding some customs issue Rawat got caught up in. Here is another removal of concerns people have expressed about Rawat being a cult leader, which is a widely discussed matter on the topic. And in addition, I have much the same concerns that MastCell below does—namely that WP:OWB#9 is applicable—and after reading Momento's statement I see nothing which indicates that he has any intention of changing his editing if allowed to edit Rawat articles again. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by olive

What is the issue here -asking that the sanction be reviewed or lifting the sanction? We should not use past sanctions to muddy the water on what the issue is here, but should deal with behaviour since the last sanction unless WP is indeed punitive.

Disclaimer: I had very little prior knowledg of Prem Rawat or his organization but saw a comment on a talk page which led me to the article talk page where I then thought an uninvolved voice might be useful. These were my observations. My experience although short was that Momento was making good attempts to work collaboratively on the talk page. The battle ground sensibility and tone was not created by him but by two other editors. Blade's sanction was sweeping and did not delineate specific behaviours per specific editors. Jimbo Wale's addition was and should have been considered controversial, but he made that edit immediately editors were sanctioned so they could not discuss it with him, and he made the edit with out any discussion on the talk page, as I remember. What is happening here seems to me is that the lack of discrimination then, is necessary now. (Littleolive oil (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC))

• Diffs of attempts to edit neutrality.

Momento consolidated positive content, reducing positive weight, , the same way he trims and consolidates here. Much of what he removes here is positive to Rawat. .. Why is this being used to show he removes negative to Rawat content rather than that his editing has become more neutral in how he deals with both pejorative and positive to Rawat content.

• Mastcell:

I remember clearly your support of Will Beback in the past. Given Will's position in reference to Momento I don't see you input here as being unbiased

I think you have a very good idea in asking Momento what he plans to do if the ban is lifted, and perhaps even better to suggest what he could be doing.

I would contest these comments made by Mastcell:

But so far this exercise seems to be simply another complaint about the technical and legalistic aspects of the original topic ban,

This editor was sanctioned with out a diff. With out diffs editors do not know exactly what they done to deserve a sanction nor what they can do to improve. With out asking for diffs how does an editor get a review. No editor should be criticized for asking for a review and for asking for diffs showing wrong doing. And no admin should first neglect to use diffs, but if they do, they should willingly be able to show them when asked. Misplaced Pages is not punishment based, apparently. People need to know what they can do to improve.

coupled with a continuation of combative battleground behavior

In my time on the page battleground and abusive behaviour was demonstrated by other editors. How Momento remained as collected as he did in that environment is hard to understand. Further, asking for a review of a sanction is not battleground behaviour. Misplaced Pages extends this right to editors. So, suggesting there is continued battle ground behaviour when there was no proof of battle ground behaviour to begin with is a circular argument and unfair.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC))

• We cannot fairly sanction an editor because he has sanctioned before, or by comparing him to another editor who wasn't sanctioned, and why would an editor not be upset here when there is no evidence of battleground behaviour which is what he was sanctioned for. I feel sorry about this and ashamed. Diffs don't show what is said they do, no diffs of battleground beahviour, an editor improving, and still excuses raised right and left to make sure the sanction holds.(Littleolive oil (talk) 05:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC))

Statement by Rainer P.

A little history: I am also a SPA and joined .enWP solely for the reason of protecting the Rawat articles from the doings of a small, but vociferous group of Rawat-“critics“, who have succeeded in creating a sustained false balance in the articels, that was cleverly designed to appear as innocent neutrality to in this regard uneducated editors and admins. Especially after that notorious Cade Metz attack there seemed to be a proneness to avoid any positive statement on Prem Rawat in WP, enforced by admins like Will Beback or Maelefique, who displayed a considerable bias toward a „critical“ view of the subject, as they perhaps innocently understood their stance. These editors systematically looked the other way, when Rawat-supporters were attacked by members of that group, who frequently boasted about their feats on their forum. Of course admins can not be expected to keep track of such goings and their dubious background, as that requires special proficiency that is acquired only through special interest, like Momento, Rumiton and I have, after observing very closely the subject's history. The frequent impunity, with which detractors were able to ride their innuendos and attacks in the face of those admins has created a tricky climate of wild-west lawlessness and self-defence that was certainly one condition for the development of a bad style in the interaction of involved editors, namely a "battleground" situation. It got better, after TBotNL had announced strict enforcement of WP rules, but then that „nuclear solution“ brought everything to a dead stop. It's like the gunfight at the O.K. Corral had been decided by dropping a bomb on the whole scene indisciminately. I am convinced that under a more conscientious supervision Momento would not have given reason to consider such drastic measures as an infinite topic ban, and I believe that in a future setting with strict and neutral enforcement of WP-rules Momento can make valuable contributions to the article, without tripping over the pitfalls of weak leadership. Putting the article under DS seems to be a step into that direction. He should be given a new chance. He may not be the only one who needs a chance to learn.--Rainer P. (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not censored". Maybe this high principle is sometimes hard to live up to. I feel it is being subtly eroded, when an editor gets banned, although he can not be convicted of misconduct. No person should be sacrificed on the altars of mediocrity.--Rainer P. (talk) 16:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Steven Zhang

Commenting on this briefly as I was pinged by Blade. I think it's a really simple case here - Momento's editing over the last nine years has almost solely been regarding Prem Rawat. In my experience from my time mediating the Prem Rawat articles, I found some of the editors used tactics like stonewalling to prevent change, often being very unwilling to negotiate at all. Momento I believe has been one of these editors. He's had poor conduct in the past, and has been blocked several times due to this conduct. If he had an otherwise stellar record with edits to other articles then I'd recommend considering his topic ban. Looking at his editing since the topic ban being imposed, there's practically nothing other than talking about his topic ban, and has been keeping track of changes made to Rawat articles. In absence of redeeming conduct and past poor conduct, I recommend the topic ban remain in place, with it possible to be reconsidered if quality work is done elsewhere. Regards, Steven Zhang (talk) 02:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by EatsShootsAndLeaves

I'm here because of Momento's wholly inappropriate canvassing on ANI (which, by the way, really just shows how out-of-touch they are).

A typical AE removal of restrictions request requires that the appelant a) show proof of positive editing since, and b) provide a suggestion of their "way forward" if future disputes arise. None of these exist in this appeal.

What the appelant does seem to be suggestion is that 1.25+ years later, the original topic ban should not have been applied anyway. It's FAR to late to make that arguement - especially considering past attempts at appeal. The appelant appears to be hoping a) we forget things and b) those involved in the original topic ban are absent.

From what I can see, the topic ban was in lieu of an obvious site ban/indef block due to their behaviour. They're FORTUNATE to have only recieved a topic ban.

Because it's way to late to appeal the original topic ban, we have to revert to the "appeal on time served/good behaviour" which is wholly absent. As such, I find the original topic ban to be valid, and no need to accept an appeal at this time. I would however suggest that Momento be topic-banned from further appeals for AT LEAST 6 months. ES&L 14:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Momento

In the message with which they imposed the ban, The Blade of the Northern Light did not link to evidence of misconduct by Momento that would justify the ban. I would ask them to submit such evidence now in order to allow us to review this appeal. As concerns the rest of Momento's statement, what other editors may or may not have done is entirely irrelevant here because editors are sanctioned based only on their own conduct, not because of the conduct of others (see, by analogy, WP:NOTTHEM). The conduct of others should therefore not be discussed further here.  Sandstein  06:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

You cannot understand the situation at Prem Rawat without discussing the actions of the editors.MOMENTO (talk) 09:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Momento, your presentation of the case above makes it sound as if the conflict with PatW was some very recent situation. In reality, PatW was apparently blocked in November 2012, a few days after your topic ban. Can you please (a) reword your exposition so as to make the timeline more clear for the newcomer; (b) say something about how you expect your renewed involvement will play out in the present situation on that article; and (c) add some documentation of previous blocks, sanctions and attempted appeals in this matter? There seems to have been a quite extensive backstory of previous sanctions and blocks. Is it true that when you were topic-banned in Nov 2012, you had just previously come back from an earlier one-year topic ban imposed in Nov 2011, during which year you were repeatedly blocked for ban evasion, and that you had even earlier Arb sanctions on Prem Rawat in 2008 and 2010? Also, since your text above sounds as if you originally composed it shortly after the 2012 ban, did you in fact file this as an appeal previously? Thanks, – Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

How would you like me to format my replies?MOMENTO (talk) 09:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

a) Done. Thank you for that suggestion.

b) I think the most pressing issue is to open a discussion about the 50+ undiscussed edits made by FrancisSchonken in July 2013 that undid months of painstakingly discussed collaborative editing, introduced bad grammar and removed important material from an expert source.

c) I have not appealed this sanction previously but have asked TBOTNL to un block me immediately after I was banned and at six months and after one year but he didm't reply..

d) My previous topic banned was for a year on February 4th 2011 by Sandstein on the application of WillBeBack. It expired February 2012 and I was not "repeatedly blocked for ban evasion" during this period. I have been given numerous undeserved sanctions at the instigation of the now disgraced WillBeBack and his cronies and I have ample evidence to prove it. This appeal was compiled in the last month.MOMENTO (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Your current statement appears to focus on the idea that you want to appeal the original sanction. As in, you are attempting to argue the sanction should never have been applied. Given the previous failed appeals, this is unlikely. I suggest you reword this as a request to repeal the sanction. As in, you wish for the indefinate period of the sanction to end. To do that, stop focusing on why you think the sanction was invalid and focus on why you think the sanction is no longer necessary. Proof of non-disruptive edit hat ting would help. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 17:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm arguing the sanction should never have been applied and that is why I am arguing that it should be lifted.MOMENTO (talk) 01:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

If that's your sole argument, then it's quite obviously wrong - from what I see, the topic ban was quite the neccessity and was done instead of a site ban based on your history of behaviour. You were lucky to get away with a topic ban. ES&L 12:49, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Observation I'm seeing a consensus to not lift the topic ban based on the evidence (in addition to the behavior) presented by Momento in their appeal. The statue of limitations for challenging the validity of the sanction applied has already expired (in my mind) so the majority of this appeal is rendered moot. To see statement of 09:03, 10 February 2014 seems to suggest in my mind that the topic ban is still reasonable to prevent further disruption of the topic area by this single minded user. Hasteur (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Momento

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This series of topic bans was already examined by the Arbitration Committee in December 2012 at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2#Amendment request: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2. Momento advanced their arguments in favor of lifting the ban(s) at that time, and the Arbitration Committee chose not to act on these arguments or on the appeal by another similarly banned editor. I think that this (non-)action by the Arbitration Committee prevents a review of the ban(s) at the community level, because this would amount to a community review of Arbitration Committee actions, which is not allowed. The appeal should therefore be procedurally declined, with a note that it may be submitted to the Arbitration Committee instead.  Sandstein  16:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
  • @Sandstein: Per the motion at the bottom of Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2#Amendment request: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2, the committee has decided to let the editors they originally sanctioned appeal their bans at AE. So they have allowed us to address the problem. EdJohnston (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
    • That's true, thanks. In their statement, The Blade of the Northern Lights refers to an earlier statement in which they say that they imposed the ban because of "edits clearly gave the article a very pro-Rawat slant". While violating WP:NPOV is among the grounds for imposing discretionary sanctions, The Blade of the Northern Lights refers only to one consolidated diff which is not at a glance recognizable as non-neutral. I think that The Blade of the Northern Lights should explain more precisely how this diff violates the neutrality policy to such an extent as to constitute sanctionable misconduct.  Sandstein  19:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
• I have a question for @Momento: you have made nearly 9,000 edits to Misplaced Pages over 9 years. As best I can tell, virtually all of those edits involve either Prem Rawat or wiki-litigation related to Prem Rawat. You have accrued multiple blocks and other sanctions for edit-warring and disruption. The overall picture I'm left with is that of a single-purpose agenda account whose actions strongly suggest an inability to edit neutrally or productively in the area of focus. Do you have any other interest in this project besides our coverage of Prem Rawat? If your topic ban is lifted, why should we believe that your conduct will be better in the future than it has been in the past? MastCell  20:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm receptive to hearing positive reasons why we should expect productive editing from Momento. But so far this exercise seems to be simply another complaint about the technical and legalistic aspects of the original topic ban, coupled with a continuation of combative battleground behavior. The topic ban in question has already been reviewed and heavily scrutinized, and it's unlikely that simply repeating the same complaints of unfairness at six-month intervals is going to help. I'm opposed to granting this appeal as framed, although I remain open to hearing arguments based on actual likelihood of productive future contributions rather than continued demands for shrubberies. MastCell  18:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't have imposed the topic ban based on the evidence presented here by the sanctioning admin. The diffs they provide are not on their face problematic, and valid editorial reasons are imaginable for them. But on the other hand, Momento is essentially a single purpose account apparently dedicated only to presenting Prem Rawat in a more positive light, as seen in their mainspace contributions. One-sided single-purpose editing is incompatible with the expectation, as set down in WP:NPOV and elsewhere, that editors are here to build a neutral encyclopedia, rather than to promote a particular agenda (see Misplaced Pages:ARBAB#Single purpose accounts). On this basis, I would maintain the ban and decline the appeal.  Sandstein  21:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• Momento is doing nothing to improve our confidence in his future editing with his statements here. Although the committee's most recent decision (December 2012) did not investigate the behavior of all the sanctioned editors in detail, they showed the most sympathy to User:Rainer P. who in fact has been unbanned recently at AE. Rainer was not the subject of sanctions in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2 while Momento was. Rainer P. has never been blocked, while Momento has been blocked seven times. We can certainly rely on the committee's past findings of fact regarding Momento. Since Momento had such a prominent role in the past Arbcom cases, I think he had an affirmative duty when coming here to show that he is now going to be part of the solution and not the problem. User:Steven Zhang in his comment above states "In absence of redeeming conduct and past poor conduct, I recommend the topic ban remain in place, with it possible to be reconsidered if quality work is done elsewhere". I share this view, but would be open to a new appeal in 6-12 months if Momento can point to good work elsewhere. EdJohnston (talk) 03:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Wavyinfinity

Mathsci

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Mathsci

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

NE Ent 22:11, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Motion_.28Mathsci.29AME#SECTION

Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Request for clarification (October 2013) Sorry about that NE Ent 23:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Violation of site ban.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on removed post, encouraged editor to wait prescribed six month period before appealing

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Mathsci

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Mathsci

Statement by Deltahedron

Here is what I wrote at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Banned_user_suggesting_edits

A curious situation has arisen regarding Mathsci (talk · contribs), who was banned for harassment by the Arbitration Committee in October 2013 . He has apparently been sending emails to User:Rschwieb suggesting edits to the article Mutation (algebra), as reported here. He has also edited his own talk page to make similar suggestions.

The suggestions (on the talk page: I have not seen any emails) do not seem unconstructive in themselves, although I would not necessarily accept them. There is of course a general position in Misplaced Pages:Banning policy that "Bans apply to all editing, good or bad". However I would add a personal concern. In April 2013 I had a rather unpleasant experience with Mathsci in which he displayed a surprisingly aggressive level of ownership: condescending unwillingness to engage in serious collegial discussion and lack of interest in finding consensus. I was not happy with the situation and decided to remove myself from the conflict -- Mathsci's response did not demonstrate any desire on his part to resolve the situation. I recently decided to resume editing (some time after Mathsci's ban). My concern is that Mathsci's comments relate to the article Mutation (algebra) which I created less than a week ago. It seems disturbingly likely that Mathsci, while banned, is in fact following my edits and is attempting to influence other editors to edit the articles that I am working on. This could be considered disturbing, although I am myself quite happy to consider any sensible and constructive suggestions he has to make, provided they are not accompanied by his previous levels of condescension.

I then added

Followup: in these edits Mathsci condescendingly emphasises that in his opinion I should not have created the article in question at all. I am sorry that his response to my posting here is to continue his entirely negative attitude towards me and my edits -- if Mathsci had been able to take a more collegial line, I would have been inclined to view this situation more positively. As a direct result of his response, I now suggest that normal banning policy be applied, that Mathsci's email and access to his talk page be revoked, and that the one-year timer on any possible ban appeal be reset to today.

It seems to me that Mathsci is intent on continuing the fight he was trying to pick with me last April. I refuse to play these games. Deltahedron (talk) 22:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Mathsci has described the comments he has been making at his talk page and by email as "very general and vague mathematical comments not related to any specific content" . This is untrue. As I point out above, they were aimed specifically at an article I created only a few days ago. I find that disturbing. Deltahedron (talk) 07:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: as documented above, Mathsci had already been emailing another editor in an attempt to influence the editing of an article (which I had just started) before he posted similar comments at his own talk page. He has been using both forms of communication to persuade other editors to edit, or not to edit, articles, in contravention of his ban. Deltahedron (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

This is a clear and obvious violation of the site ban. At a bare minimum, I would suggest that an account block (including talk page access and e-mail access) and a reset of repeals (originally six months) to the date that this request is closed is in order. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Mathsci

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The proper link to the Clarification request from October 2013 is Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Request for clarification (October 2013). This AE is a complaint that Mathsci is improperly trying to influence article content by leaving messages on his talk page while blocked. This seems correct. It is reasonable to warn him to stop this, or his talk page may be disabled. EdJohnston (talk) 05:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
  • @EdJohnston: Given that, in reply to your comment, Mathsci has tried to excuse the edit and in so doing continued to try and influence article content would you support removing talk page access? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'd be in favour of removing talk page access. The rules for being site-banned re use of the talk page are pretty clear. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:43, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, it seems we aren't authorized to do anything here qua AE. That's because the enforcement remedy, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Enforcement, only allows blocks in response to topic ban violations (which this isn't), or discretionary sanctions (which do not cover the topic of these edits). That is to say, this site ban violation can only be responded to using normal administrator authority. Talk page access removal appears appropriate to me.  Sandstein  07:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I disagree that we aren't permitted to do anything here the first sentence in the instruction box at the top of this page states that "enforcement requests against users may be brought if a user is likely to be acting in breach of the remedies in a closed arbitration case" which is exactly what this request is about. Likewise blocking a user banned by an arbitration decision isn't expressly permitted by the enforcement provision but is apart of the decision to site ban as is this. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree with User:Callanecc here. Arbcom passed a remedy site banning Mathsci, Mathsci has pretty clearly breached that ban by using his talk page to continue trying to influence content (see WP:SITEBAN, which says "Unless otherwise specified, a ban is a site ban. An editor who is site-banned is forbidden from making any edit, anywhere on Misplaced Pages, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances. The only exception is that editors with talk page access may appeal in accordance with the provisions below."). It seems pretty open and shut to me, and removing talkpage/email access seems appropriate. Lankiveil 12:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC).
      • I don't disagree that we can and should remove talk page access for the ban violation, but perhaps we can't do it with the "special" AE authority, for lack of a remedy authorizing us to do so. What are the grounds for removing e-mail access as well?  Sandstein  14:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• I totally agree that Mathsci has broken his ban and his response to Ed Johnson does not suggest he is taking the hint. I have removed his talk page access but left his email on. Spartaz 21:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

ArtifexMayhem

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning ArtifexMayhem

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Prmct (talk) 18:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

ArtifexMayhem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Tag-team_editing

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Makes the same revert another editor made 7 hours earlier
2. Makes the same revert again
3. See also edits to the human intelligence template:

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 7 April 2013:

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

ArtifexMayhem is tag-teaming with Volunteer Marek to replace the article Nations and intelligence with a redirect to another article. I have tried to resolve the issues with this article on the talk page, but both of them are reverting without participating in the discussion. At present there is no consensus to turn the article into a redirect, and I would like to improve the article's sourcing, but their restoring the redirect in rapid succession makes it impossible for me to edit the article.

I've looked through the edit histories of Nations and Intelligence and the Human Intelligence template, and ArtifexMayhem has never participated in either before his reverts today. I'm reporting ArtifexMayhem because his conduct is the worse problem, but be aware Volunteer Marek has been warned of the discretionary sanctions also:

This evidence presented against ArtifexMayhem in an arbitration case last year suggests that almost all of his edits to articles related to race have been blanking or reverts, and he usually does not discuss them on the talk pages. One example given there is that on the article that Nations and Intelligence now redirects to, all of ArtifexMayhem's edits have been reverts. What he's doing now seems to be a continuation of the same behavior, and seems to be exactly what the tag-teaming ruling in the race and intelligence case was intended to prevent.

Before someone asks, please be aware that I'm not a new user. I suggest admins read the discussion here if they wish to understand why I do not believe it's necessary to disclose my former account. I also encourage admins to examine the textbook I have been citing at Google books, if they wish to examine ArtifexMayhem's claims about WP:FRINGE in his edit summaries.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning ArtifexMayhem

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by ArtifexMayhem

I've supported redirecting that article for more than a year due to its WP:FRINGE nature. So it's not really surprising that I agree with Aprock and Volunteer Marek (especially considering so of Prmct's pov pushing edits).

I do find The Devil's Advocate behavior in the topic area disruptive—disingenuous sourcing suggestions, support for obvious sock/meat puppets(e.g., Zeromus1 (talk · contribs), Akuri (talk · contribs), and Mors Martell (talk · contribs)), his off-wiki complaint that I "edited the white privilege article in a manner consistent with usual dysfunction", and his off-wiki discussions with Captain Occam concerning my editing in the topic area.

— ArtifexMayhem (talk) 21:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Aprock

I don't follow off wiki behavior, so I wasn't aware that Captain Occam had been discussing the topic area with The Devil's Advocate. If that is in fact true, it may be that The Devil's Advocate's disruptive edits are a case of proxy editing for a site banned user. aprock (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

I feel NuclearWarfare's action here is premature. Concerns about previous accounts should be given more consideration and not be met with an "editing generally favors bad POV so bad editor" argument. From what I have seen, this editor has not even been pushing a POV, but simply objecting to the POV-pushing by other editors. The content dispute noted here, over the Nations and Intelligence article, is one where the editing by Prmct was geared towards accommodating concerns about the article not sufficiently representing more mainstream scholarship on the subject. One of the only editors to give a cogent reason essentially argued that there is sufficient basis for an article but that it should incorporate more mainstream views. Wanting to improve an article on a noteworthy subject and objecting to it being repeatedly blanked while you are in the process of doing that is not problematic in itself.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by IP

@NW If that block was an AE block, you need to specify that it was. Presuming it was not, it would still be helpful to say so since the block originated from the AE page. Someone reviewing the block may think it was an AE action. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 18:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning ArtifexMayhem

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Filer blocked indefinitely. NW (Talk) 19:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• Not seeing any argument against NW's block of User:Prcmt. After reading Talk:Nations and intelligence#Suggestion to merge I don't see any special considerations that would justify giving more WP:ROPE to User:Prcmt. It might affect the analysis a bit if he would reveal what his previous account was. The thesis which Prcmt was trying to make room for seems to reflect the opinions of Richard Lynn. In Lynn's article it's noted that he believes that "some races are inherently more psychopathic than others". We are comfortably in the domain of WP:FRINGE here. In any case this was opened as a complaint against User:ArtifexMayhem. Since he has never been notified under the R&I sanctions no action could be taken against him here. EdJohnston (talk) 06:29, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

  There's the warning noted in the complaint, here, but that probably doesn't count. There's some edit warring at Nations and intelligence about whether to redirect and at Template:Human intelligence topics, which I think is problematic. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 06:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• I support NW's block as editors must have a very good reason to use alternative accounts in any area where there's an active sanction. - Penwhale | 07:02, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• NW has discussed his block rationale more fully at User talk:Prmct#Experience. EdJohnston (talk) 17:54, 11 February 2014 (UTC)