This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 200.120.73.176 (talk) at 10:09, 25 February 2014 (Problems). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 10:09, 25 February 2014 by 200.120.73.176 (talk) (Problems)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
Article Still Lacks NPOV
Please discuss the fact that virtually the entire article helps present the viewpoint that the Poles did not collaborate at all in the Holocaust, and in fact helped Jews where possible. I brought up this issue three years ago, and even gave an example of selective presentation of facts to present one viewpoint. The only person who responded to my post agreed with me, and gave another (excellent) example. Therefore I can only conclude that nobody believes this article is NPOV. If nobody responds to my post within the next few weeks I'll add the link indicating problems with the neutrality of the article.
Thanks, Nirf (talk) 20:17, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- What do you want from us, Nirf? I'd rather you bring in some third-party reliable sources first, in support of your wp:soapbox. Three years ago you said Poles were responsible for the Holocaust. Anything new out there? Poeticbent talk 21:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Exaggerating my previous statements is not the way to start a civil debate on this article, Poeticbent. I'm sure you are aware of the difference between "complicit" and "responsible". In any case, as I already said, there are two examples just above in the talk page that have never been addressed. You can start by addressing those. Fundamentally though, as I said, entire large swathes of the article read like somebody trying to convince you that the Poles are the good guys. That is not the job of this article. Some scholars, like Jan T. Gross, would give you a very different general picture of what went on. The Holocaust survivor that I spoke to for 3 hours last week did as well. The article should stick to presenting the basic facts and outline of what happened. It should note that there were some Poles who helped, and some that harmed, and that various scholars disagree about the extent of those two populations. Opinions should be in quotes or paraphrased and attributed to scholars, and scholars who present different viewpoints should be presented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nirf (talk • contribs) 21:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like to add (as nobody is responding to my comments, but doubtless there will be a howl when I put the NPOV tag on), that to give some specific sources, the general characterization of the situation given in the second paragraph is completely at odds with what you'll find at other major reputable sites. For instance the Yad Vashem exhibit at Auschwitz characterizes the number of people willing to help Jews as "very few". The Berlin Holocaust memorial notes the active cooperation of regular Polish police at some of the extermination sites. Research by Barbara Engelking, to give another example, documented thousands of cases where Jews fleeing in the countryside were betrayed by Poles. By itself, these numbers are the same order of magnitude as the Polish Righteous Among Nations. In summary, and to re-emphasize: Misplaced Pages is presenting something as a consensus view which is not in fact consensus. If this article was written about Denmark, it would be uncontroversial, but it's not, it's about Poland. Whatever the personal views of people responsible for this page, there is a legitimate, mainstream scholarly viewpoint that is being completely ignored. Nirf (talk) 17:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- You are welcome to improve this article - please go ahead. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 20:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
- What research by Engelking are you specifically referring to? She's written a lot about the subject.Volunteer Marek 22:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
B-class review
This article is pretty close, but I am seeing some unreferenced sentences. Those would need to be ref'ed before this is B-class. There are also some NPOV concerns raised above, through not backed by specific sources so far, so not very serious of a concern for this review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Opinions presented as if fact
There is a claim in the article that the number of people recognised as "Righteous among the nations" is a small fraction of the total who deserve to be. No matter how much anyone might agree with this, it's pure opinion. Presenting it as a fact contravenes NPOV.
At least two people seem to think that the mere fact of appearing in a book or magazine means that something must be included in the encyclopaedia (, ). I could find any number of outrageous statements from revisionist historians and put them in the article as if they were facts, and add a reference tag, and I guess you'd just think "oh well, it's sourced - we must include it". 200.120.73.176 (talk) 12:02, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. Revisionist historians aren't a reliable source. The Journal of Holocaust Education, AFAIK, is. If I'm wrong on the latter, then please, educate me, or better yet bring it up at reliable sources noticeboard.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- Marek, you are missing the point, I'm afraid. Opinion presented in a reliable source is still opinion. Drmies (talk) 05:45, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- This is an estimate by a scholar. If that is "opinion" then so is 90% of what's found in reliable sources which we use throughout Misplaced Pages. Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- It was an opinion presented as if fact. This is a really simple thing to resolve. A statement that "the number of Poles recognised by Yad Vashem is certainly only a small fraction of those who aided Jews during the holocaust in Poland" is objective, simple, and so obvious that it hardly needs stating. A claim that "1 to 10 percent of deserving cases were recognised" is an utterly unverifiable opinion, absurdly over-specific as you can tell from the language in the source you cited. You gullibly rendered the descriptive "twenty, fifty even a hundred" as a percentage, as if it was a precise estimate and not a descriptive statement.
- Now, considering the sick and vile accusation made against me by User:Poeticbent, that is the last time I will be in any way cooperative here, until an apology is forthcoming. I'll improve the article in whichever way it needs to be improved, and if you don't like any of it, that will be your problem. 200.120.73.176 (talk) 15:15, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- This is an estimate by a scholar. If that is "opinion" then so is 90% of what's found in reliable sources which we use throughout Misplaced Pages. Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Marek, you are missing the point, I'm afraid. Opinion presented in a reliable source is still opinion. Drmies (talk) 05:45, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- A claim that "1 to 10 percent of deserving cases were recognised" is an estimate made by an author in a reliable source. It is no more "utterly unverifiable" then the claim that there are 318,892,10 people in the United States. Actually, it's quite a bit better since it gives a *range*. 1% to 10% is quite an interval, and is *not* "absurdly specific". The actual quote is *not* "twenty, fifty even a hundred", it is 20, 50, perhaps even 100 times higher. That "times higher" is important - it already *is* a percentage. If you want to insist we can change the wording to the exact quote of "twenty, fifty, even 100 times higher".
- And however you feel about Poeticbent's comments, you can't get out of the fact that you need to be cooperative on this article, whether you like it or not. And it's not like you've actually been very cooperative so far, so I'm not sure what exactly you are threatening here. More of the same?
- One more time. You need to buttress your claim that this statement is "POV" or that it fails "verifiability" or that it is not "encyclopedic" with something more than just your own opinion. You need to provide sources which contradict it or you need to argue *specifically* on the basis of policy why this shouldn't be included.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- If you're too stupid to tell the difference between a quantitative estimate and a descriptive statement, you're not intelligent enough to be editing wikipedia. If you think that "times higher" means that something is a percentage, you're not intelligent enough to be editing wikipedia. If, once you've mistaken a descriptive statement for a quantitative estimate, you think that "twenty times higher" is equivalent to 10 per cent rather than 5 per cent, you're not intelligent enough to be editing wikipedia. And if you fail to condemn the vile insults used by User:Poeticbent, well, then you're just a cunt. 200.120.73.176 (talk) 18:33, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Enough edit warring and removing. Let the IP's insults stand: those of you who disagree with it can just consider that an insult given by someone you don't respect isn't worth anything. This is not your resume. To the IP--I tried mediating between all of y'all, but you're not helping and you probably lost any credibility that you had with them. I'm giving up on this and will let you all stew in your own juices. I don't care who started--I note that a valid point was cut short, that an IP editor used some pretty foul language, and that a registered account made the most ridiculous accusation I've seen in some time, that someone, for removing a name redundant in the main text, is accused of "historical revisionism". Poeticbent hasn't taken that back. I don't do civility blocks gladly and I won't do it here, but I have no respect for someone who makes those kinds of claims and sticks by them. I salute the IP for their initial efforts to get things started and Marek for in the end picking it up as a real, valid argument.
Now, go revert and blank and whatnot and make everyone look silly. I have some other things to do, things that are much more rewarding. Happy days. Drmies (talk) 14:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would just like to note two things. Firstly, that User:Poeticbent made a truly disgusting accusation for a truly ridiculous reason, and that this accusation was implicitly endorsed by User:Volunteer Marek and User:Piotrus. Second, none of those three bothered to comment on my specific suggestion for a revised wording. I think that tells us all we need to know about the maturity and motivation of these three users.
- I too am going elsewhere. There is no shortage of articles with basic mistakes which need correcting. Let me assure you that I'll be back here in due course though. 200.120.73.176 (talk) 14:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- You're talking nonsense. Poeticbent misunderstood your initial comment. Maybe because you have a ... certain way with words, which is not exactly conducive to understanding, never mind rational discussion. Maybe if you didn't go around calling people "cunts" and "stupid" etc. people would read a bit more carefully what you have to say. Second, I never "endorsed" any view that you were a historical revisionist. Third, I don't even know why you're bringing User:Piotrus into this as he hasn't even commented. Stop trying to portray yourself as some kind of victim, when in fact you've been the one dishing out all the abuse and vile.
- Finally, you are simply edit warring on the article and refusing to discuss your edits. Calling people names or saying "you're stupid!" is not discussion. Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- My initial comment was "redundant". Exactly what did Poeticbent misunderstand? In what way was that "not exactly conducive to understanding"? He made his repulsive accusation specifically on the basis of this edit. You have implicitly endorsed the vile slur against me by failing to condemn it. User:Piotrus also did this by removing my response from the talk page.
- As for discussing edits, here are all the edits I've made in which I gave reasons for what I was doing: ,,,, , , , , . , , , , , , , . You have never given any other reason except "it's sourced", even entitling your talk page section "removal of sourced content". If you think that the mere appearance of something in an external document means it must be included in the encyclopaedia, you haven't got a clue about some very fundamental aspects of the project. 200.120.73.176 (talk) 15:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
<-- I thought you were going to go away. Anyway, Piotrus, like Drmies, like myself, simply removed your little screed of insults from the talk page. And like I said, the above links are not "discussion" they are insults mixed in with you endlessly repeating your assertion.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly what did Poeticbent misunderstand, that led him to make his nauseatingly inappropriate slur? In what way was the word redundant "not exactly conducive to understanding"? Do you endorse his statement, or do you reject it? 200.120.73.176 (talk) 15:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Removal of sourced content
Much of this will not improve the article or lower the temperature. Drmies (talk) 18:59, 18 February 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Re: . This edit involves removal of sourced content apparently on the basis of just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The edit summary: Look, there are vast numbers of things you can find in "reliable sources" which nevertheless cannot be included in the encyclopaedia. "sourced" does not trump "verifiable", "neutral" or "encyclopaedic" suggests an unfamiliarity with Misplaced Pages's policies (WP:V, WP:RS. On the other hand, a mention is made of "verifiability", "neutrality" and "encyclopaedic...citity" Look, the content is sourced, hence verifiable. There is nothing non-neutral about it. It is pertinent to the topic and of interest to readers, hence encyclopedic. Please don't remove sourced text unless you can obtain consensus, by convincing other editors that there are issues of neutrality or verifiability actually involved here. Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Now, some of this may have been addressed in the section above, but I don't think we've made much progress there beyond the "it's verified". Personally, I'm somewhat neutral, though I think the comment is a bit on the vague side and I don't see how it strengthens the article, but I'm no expert. Carry on, and please do so courteously, without cusswords and without incorrect claims of vandalism and evasion and whatnot. Drmies (talk) 22:27, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
|
Problems
Here are the problems with the article that my recent edit fixed.
- In every practical sense, the "Jewish civilization in Europe has been brought to an end".
- 1. The grammar is incorrect, it should be "was", not "has been".
- 2. It's about the Holocaust in general. This article is about the Holocaust in Poland.
- 3. Lifting text verbatim from sources like this is basically never acceptable. See WP:COPYPASTE.
- Solution: removed.
- The Poles honored by Yad Vashem likely represent a fraction of the deserving cases, with the actual number who qualify being "20, 50, perhaps even 100 times higher".
- 1. It's not likely, it's certain. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can understand that.
- 2. The source gives a descriptive statement, not a quantitative estimate. Reproducing it verbatim is extremely credulous.
- 3. Lifting text verbatim from sources like this is basically never acceptable. See WP:COPYPASTE.
- Solution: rewrote: The Poles honored by Yad Vashem certainly represent only a fraction of the true number of cases of Poles assisting Jews
- The occurrence of such rescue effort is "one of the most remarkable features of Polish-Jewish relations during the Holocaust", because ethnic Poles themselves were the subject to capital punishment at the hands of the German Nazis if found offering any kind of help to a person of Jewish faith or origin
- Lifting text verbatim from sources like this is basically never acceptable. See WP:COPYPASTE.
- Peacock words
- solution: rewrote: This rescue effort occurred even though ethnic Poles themselves were the subject to capital punishment at the hands of the Nazis if found offering any kind of help to a person of Jewish faith or origin
There are plenty more examples of the direct lifting of text from sources. This is a) lazy, b) copyright violating, even if sourced. No fair use provision applies when you can easily, straightforwardly incorporate the meaning of the text. c) against policy. But a bunch of you editors here seriously seem to believe that if any text appears in a source, then it must be included in the article. I suggest you learn the policies a bit better before doing any more editing. 200.120.73.176 (talk) 10:09, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Categories:- All unassessed articles
- C-Class Jewish history-related articles
- High-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles
- C-Class Poland articles
- High-importance Poland articles
- WikiProject Poland articles
- C-Class Discrimination articles
- High-importance Discrimination articles
- WikiProject Discrimination articles