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User:84.127.80.114 and Debian edit war

I have been recently blocked for 48 hours. I insist that I was not the one edit warring. I even reduced the amount of my changes to a minimum. I got a WP:AN3 warning to not be disruptive in the article. I only reverted the disputed changes that used non neutral language. I was not disruptive. I was blocked because I made a change to the article.

My unblock request is not answered. I see that administrators are busy but I cannot work without an answer. I am worried this will be an excuse to block me for a longer period of time if I try to make any changes to the article. My ability to bold edit and revert is virtually blocked. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You're not blocked - if you were, you could not have edited here DP 18:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Have you been edit-warring at Debian? Yes. Has Mthinkcpp been edit-warring? Yes, but to a much lesser degree. You were more insistent with your reverts, having reverted twice in the same day, while the reverts that Mthinkcpp had made were spaced days apart. Neither one of you violated the three revert rule (reverting more than 3 times in a 24 hour period) but Bbb23 made the decision to block you as being the more aggressive editor in this case. I'm not sure I would have made that decision, but I don't think it was the "wrong" decision either; I can see the logic behind it.

In either case, you can and should be blocked again if you insist on reinserting the information that was disputed through reverts and is being discussed on the article's talk page. The proper way to resolve this is to convince other editors that you are correct. If you can't do that, and can't achieve consensus, it can't be added. If you can't understand that, or refuse to accept it, and continue on this path you'll be blocked again. Just continue the discussion at the article talk page, and resolve it there. Also, look at our page on dispute resolution for advice about how to best deal with an issue where you are unable to come to an agreement with another editor. -- Atama頭 18:48, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course I am not technically blocked. But I "should" be blocked again if I repeat my actions. Therefore another bold edit or revert will mean a new block. I do discuss. I did discuss then. Reverters do not. Atama says that content without consensus cannot be added. I reverted that content without consensus and I got blocked. If what I did is considered edit warring, why cannot these changes be made to WP:WAR?

Will my next bold edit/revert to the article mean a new block? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Probably. The reason why such blocks are made are to force people to handle these disputes as they're supposed to be done; through the article talk page. For reference, read bold-revert-discuss, which is the usual course of events. (Someone makes a bold edit, another person reverts it, and they settle it by discussion; you're at the discussion stage now.) -- Atama頭 21:56, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Atama says someone is at the discussion stage. I certainly am. Will I be blocked again if I try to reintroduce the changes more slowly? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 10:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I suggested dispute resolution, and linked to it for a reason. It has suggestions for how to proceed. If you feel that you are trying to facilitate discussion, but only one other person is participating, then go to the link I just provided. It suggests asking for a third opinion to weigh in. If that third opinion isn't enough to sway either side, you can try asking at the dispute resolution noticeboard for assistance, or if you want to continue the discussion at the talk page, start a request for comments and try to get input from even more people. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that if you can't convince others to your point of view and find that you are either alone in your opinion or you are in the minority, that you're not going to succeed. Move on and find something else to contribute to the article or another article. -- Atama頭 16:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The IP 84.127.80.114 has filed a case at WP:DRN so this discussion should be discontinued as DRN does not allow multiple conversations in multiple venues. Thanks Atama for your good advice to the IP and thanks to the IP for choosing dispute resolution over edit warring. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:35, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Amsterdad

Several editors have identified this Wikipedian's work as appearing to be paid editing. there is a discussion on User:DGG's talk page and one of their article's is at AfD. Another example is: Monica Lindstrom. I am also wondering how these articles that have been created over the past couple of years were never tagged or raised red flags despite appearing to be very promotional and poorly sourced? Who has reviewing them? Is it possible to determine? Thanks for your consideration. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:03, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

There are almost 4 1/2 million articles on Misplaced Pages. A handful are going to slip past the finite (and shrinking) number of people keeping track. It happens. -- Atama頭 19:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The first of these pages is up for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lucian Hudson. If it is deleted, I intend to nominate others from the same ed., starting with the most dubious. Of the 4.5 million pages, perhaps about 1.5 million are substantial. My guess that at least 5% of them are similar to this, many of them from the earlier days of the project. When I joined 7 years ago, anything that technically met the GNG was accepted unless there was prejudice against the subject. The difficult question for us is not how can we get rid of them, which is easy enough if there is the will to do it (at least 1/4 of similar pages I send to AfD are being kept for lack of interest in removing them) , but how to identify the ones that are worth rewriting and find people to do the work. DGG ( talk ) 19:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I had to double-check when you said you joined 7 years ago, DGG. Because that's about the time I joined (or created an account, at least). I could swear you've been around much longer than me. I checked... And you joined one month before me. Sorry for the tangent, but it blew my mind a bit. -- Atama頭 23:10, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I support the concerns of DGG in this matter. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC).

Well, no one is paying me to do my volunteer work here, and if this is how my work is being treated I will definitely be considering leaving this place. Life is too important to waste on friction. For now, I will be cutting down the articles as others have suggested, as it appears I've misunderstood what good sources are and which aren't. I do apologize, if you feel it is necessary, for trying to use as many sources as possible. I will obviously have to review the rules further if I choose to stay. Amsterdad (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I haven't gone all the way back yet, but I believe these are some of the articles in question:

• Sam Korankye Ankrah
• Laurette Koellner
• Greenberg Glusker
• Danny Rich (rabbi)
• Michael Jay Moon
• Simplilearn
• TakeLessons
• Fionnuala Sweeney
• Bill A. Jones
• Amy Markham
• LabWare
• Peter Staley
• Rob Dickerman
• Ritu Raj
• DJ Amadeus ‎
• Martin G. Bean
• George Walker (printmaker)
• Jill Konrath

As a side note, Atama's response in uninspiring. Candleabracadabra (talk) 01:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Candleabracadabra, thanks for making a list of articles with potential problems. I have read up on reliable sourcing and I am working try to fix these articles as best as possible to meet Misplaced Pages's requirements/ Amsterdad (talk) 14:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Amsterdad You may want a mentor to guide you during the editing process Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user is one place to start. Epicgenius (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

As I told Amsterdad on the AfD, the problems are not just sourcing. Among the are: 1/ the inclusion of extraneous material and links in order to give a good impression of the importance of the subject, 2/ writing in such as a way as to state the subject's accomplishments without sources to back them up-- 3/ exaggeration, listing journal articles and book chapters as if they were books, inclusion of minor charities, not just naming the charity but saying at some length what its good works are, and claiming that everything good during the time the person was there even in a subordinate position was do the subject. His fix so far on the article at afd goes about half way to dealing with the major problems. the worst of the problems. I find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to work in this fashion unless they were being paid for it, and I find it very hard indeed to imagine why someone would pick this particularly scattered list of topics, unless they are clients responding to an advertisement. There may be an explanation, of course, Per arb com, we can not ask someone to prove they are not a paid editor, so the only recourse we have is to treat everything that looks like paid editing as it it were. Alternatively, the next arb com might decide to have enough sense to decide that outing does apply in this sort of situation where there are only commercial interests involved. Or Jimmy & those who think like him on this might realize one can not simultaneous insist both on no paid editing and on complete anonymity. DGG ( talk ) 21:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

It is clear that all creations of this editor will have to be looked at. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC).

Reporting an administrator

Hello,

I had a very negative interaction with the administrator User talk:RHaworth, and hope someone there might have some time to assist him, as he seems to be struggling with positive communication.

This admin has privileges which seem to include deletion and rollback. My interactions all occurred on his talk page, and I took a moment to look at the interactions above mine. Nearly every entry was responded to with rudeness or worse. For example:

• A very polite but scattered letter got a response which began: "What on earth is this "self-reference" rubbish?"

• A very polite letter written from the president of a drama club inquiring about a deleted page. The response: "three infractions - so I ignore."

• A very polite letter inquiring about an email. The response: "Please give details of the alleged "notification". Your email of Jan 4 reached me perfectly well. But why on earth are you trying to email me. Two other things you should have learned in two years of contributions: wikilinks and that refs need a reflist tag but in any case they are inappropriate on user talk pages. OK, your article has been waiting some time for its third review but you must be patient. I do not usually get involved with AfC review so I have no comment on the suitability of the article."

• A very polite letter inquiring about a deleted article. His response: "May I introduce you to the concept of links? You do not clutter this page with article material - you provide a link to your draft. What does it say at the top of Thierry Noritop and fr:Thierry Noritop? "Needs additional citations for verification" and "ne cite pas suffisamment ses sources". This is the hurdle you must overcome if you want to create the Bernie Adam (get the capitalisation right) article. I suspect you are fluent in French so I suggest you create fr:Bernie Adam first. If it sticks it will provide a slight boost for the corresponding article here - which you should launch via AfC."

• A comment about a deletion review. His response: "I don't mind people opening DRVs without telling me - it is my job to watch the article - if I am interested."

• An inquiry which stated: "I am curious to understand why you deleted the Orhan Sadik-Kahn page. Interested in learning how to best position on Misplaced Pages articles. Thank you!" His response: "Possibly mainly because it did not look like a Misplaced Pages article. How many articles start with == Summary == ? How many bios put the dates of birth and death at the end instead of in the first sentence? Have you noticed that other Misplaced Pages articles contain wikilinks? Did you think that putting some in yours might make it look more like a proper article. Have you considered the possibility of creating the refs as external links? Please learn the format to de-duplicate references. He is mentioned at least once in other articles - why did you not create incoming links to your article? I have restored your text to User:Kgardner1/sandbox - attend to the matters above then re-submit via AfC."

• A message from an editor who, I assume, had a previously deleted page about a prayerbook restored. He wrote: "I have taken pity on you," and then, "You will receive no further kindness from me until you explain..." Then, "In the highly unlikely event that the text agrees with what you posted, I shall report your priest to the bishop." Then, "my reference to your church was a joke".

• An editor writes: "Hi, I am a brand new editor working on the article of an animated film festival in Kosovo Anibar. I don't know much about Misplaced Pages, please bear with me. I am working on my personal space before I post the article on mainspace. Thank you for your understanding." His response: "The parrot has not squawked for several days and not yet on this generation of this page so — kindly have the decency to wait until someone with no COI thinks your festival is notable and writes about it here".

• To the next editor: "What colour is this link?"

• To the next editor who clearly didn't realize she had deleted something from his talk page, he writes: "Before I even look at your enquiry, I need an apology for this vandalism." She responds, "Please accept my sincere apology if I have offended you but I am thoroughly confused. What vandalism? " He responds: "Did you see that the words this vandalism are a link? If you follow that link, it will take you to what we call a "diff report". That report shows the effect of an edit that you did. Please explain why you did it."

• To an editor asking why this administrator had made a rollback, he responds: "It was a knee-jerk reaction. Feel free to re-instate the speedy tag. I shall take no action."

My interaction was next, and was equally negative.

In the real world, people get fired from jobs when they behave like this. The biggest problem though, is it turns new editors off. No kindness. No encouragement. Few suggestions of where to access help.

All of us here are volunteers. None of us deserves to be treated like this. If someone could please take a moment to offer this administrator some strategies for writing to others in a civil way, it would be a big help. Thank you very much. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I want to reply because I don't want to give the impression that you are ignored. I looked over RHaworth's user talk page, and what I saw as responses run the range from brusque to acerbic, and I can definitely understand your concerns. Nothing there crosses the line in my eye to actual misbehavior, not even per incivility which is a much lower bar than personal attacks or harassment. But it's also not kind, either.

To put it in perspective, I wouldn't see any actions from this administrator to be worthy of any templated warnings (even ignoring the fact that templates generally aren't appropriate) but if a request for adminship were run today, these would probably be raised as objections.

I'm not going to offer advice to RHaworth. I don't suggest that administrators are above reproach (I certainly am not!) but for me to suggest to RHaworth that they need to change their communication style feels like arrogance on my part. At least not in the case where another administrator's "style" may be different from mine, but they aren't breaching any policies or guidelines. So I apologize, but I'm not going to take the action that you very politely suggest. All I can offer you right now is an assurance that I do understand and don't entirely dismiss your concerns, I just don't feel that it's my place to try to correct it. -- Atama頭 23:54, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Atama is exactly right. Nothing here rises to the level of incivility as defined by Misplaced Pages, and even if it did sanctioning other users for civility is controversial to say the least. There are over a thousand admins, with as many individual styles as you'd find in any group of 1000 people. You cite this quote, for example: "I don't mind people opening DRVs without telling me - it is my job to watch the article - if I am interested." That isn't insulting, uncivil, or even curt--it's just saying the facts: specifically, that he's not bothered by the DRV and if he cared about the article he would've watchlisted it. Someone who took 3 paragraphs (plus seven links and a picture of a kitten) to say the same thing wouldn't be a better admin, just a more verbose and blustery one. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

If someone is acting like a bully and a douchebag, about 40% of the time they turn out to be an admin. Though some of the nicest interactions I've had have been with admins. Power goes to some peoples heads, and couple that with being behind a screen can make people act in ways they would never act in person. Two kinds of pork (talk) 06:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

This should be a caution towards a boomerang. RHaworth, an excellent admin, does not need to be dragged through the mud over this bit over oversensitivity. The OP brought it right here... for what? An admonishment? Move along. Doc talk 09:29, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

How on earth can saying " "It was a knee-jerk reaction. Feel free to re-instate the speedy tag. I shall take no action." be construed as in any way as uncivil? The other comments are at a minor level compared to some on Misplaced Pages - a number of them are clearly meant to be humourous. I suspect that there are also instances where the quotes have been taken out of context and regardless of history. It's a dirty job out there on the front line and RHaworth in my book is doing a fine job. ► Philg88 ◄ 10:06, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

What on earth is this "bit over oversensitivity" rubbish? Magnolia677 (talk) 14:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Well said. Doc talk 14:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• What admin action are you requesting that you could not do yourself, Magnolia677? I don't see any of these as more than grumpiness on User:RHaworth's part, and we can all be grumpy sometimes. He isn't going to get a warning or a block for that, and it isn't because he is an admin either. So I don't see what anybody can do, other than maybe have a word with him. Would you like me to do that? --John (talk) 23:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

After I wrote on his talk page "your inability to show appreciation to others who volunteer their time to Misplaced Pages is disappointing", he responded with rudeness. So sure, have a go. Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 23:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that's funny, I was just over there reading that again. When I review the whole thing I think you just got off on the wrong foot. We are all volunteers here, and RHaworth did everything you asked him to do, and everything that his status demands that he do, promptly and competently. That you found him brusque was probably just him being business-like. Honestly, I would just move on from this and put it behind you, if I were you. --John (talk) 23:36, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

So, it's clear that no action will be taken against RHaworth because while he might have a brusque style of communication, it doesn't cross the line into incivility. Therefore, I think this case should be closed. Editors should feel like they can bring their concerns, especially regarding admins who wield more power than they do, to AN/I to seek counsel Magnolia677 has done so and I don't think they deserve a backlash for believing like this was a safe space to bring their concerns. This should not be discouraged and I don't think questions about admins should cause a defensive reaction. IMO. Liz 00:34, 1 March 2014 (UTC).

I agree with the above comment. The user was justified in bringing his concerns here and talk about boomerangs is inappropriate. I think there will be a good outcome as I am confident that the admin complained about will improve his level of civility to other users after this incident. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:11, 1 March 2014 (UTC).

I never meant to say that this was a board that would earn any user a "boomerang" for reporting any alleged malfeasance by an administrator, as if admins are above reproach. I was speaking only to this case specifically. Doc talk 04:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

RHaworth can be a grumpy old man (by his own definition), but he's usually got a point. I had a look at the discussion over Rutherfurd Hall and can offer the following conclusions: 1) New editor creates unreferenced article in a bad shape 2) NPP tags it as G11 three minutes later 3) Admin declines the speedy but userfies it instead 4) Editor copypastes the article back into main space and improves it 5) Admin histmerges the two versions and reminds the editor that not attributing properly is a copyvio 6) Everyone gets confused and it spills onto ANI 7) Tea and biscuits are served. Did I miss anything? Ritchie333 13:56, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you missed my most important point, or chose not notice it. RHaworth has been granted the role of gatekeeper of new articles, an important and necessary job. This means he must frequently interact with inexperienced editors who have had their articles deleted. These editors appear enthusiastic and well-meaning, but naive of the wiki ways. They also have no choice but to deal with self-described grump RHaworth. So when this administrator deletes a newcomers user page, and tells them they don't deserve one until they make 50 edits , I get a bit concerned. Stating "before I even look at your enquiry, I need an apology for this vandalism", to someone who has absolutely no idea what they did wrong, also concerns me, as does seeing an editor's ideas described as "rubbish", or jokes made about their church. I'm disappointed to see so many comments defending this rude behaviour, but maybe I'm just being unrealistic expecting that the front-line face of a volunteer organization should be a kind and helpful one. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:22, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Magnolia677 on this point, and i have asked RHaworth on his talk page to restore the user page deleted for "freeloading" and to give an account of his admin actions in that matter. I have mostly had positive contacts with RHaworth in the past, but he is often a bit overly grumpy in my view, and WP:BITE is particularly important for admins to remember. DES 19:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't defend any admin coming across as being rude or biting newbies. The way I interpreted the conversation I mentioned above though, it seemed that rather than being rude or curt, RHaworth was simply trying to explain policy to you, but making a bad job of it. Clearly, it came across as rude to you, which is why you responded in kind. Atama is right - unless RHaworth is regularly violating policy or competence as an admin, there's not much practically that can be done. Expecting him to change his manner and tone just isn't going to happen, and somebody has got to keep an eye on the CSD queue. Ritchie333 11:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course there's something that can be done. Misplaced Pages is a social environment, and most editors respond to reasonable feedback, especially if given by multiple editors. The problem is the "all-or-nothing" black and white mentality of this place (ANI) -- we don't have to block, ban, template, admonish, revert, fold, spindle or mutilate an editor to have a positive impact on their behavior. So, RHaworth, let's tone it down a bit. NE Ent 11:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

RH, that's my impression also. DGG ( talk ) 16:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:AnnerTown and gross WP:BLP violations

User:AnnerTown, a WP:SPA concerning the Juggalos (gang) and related articles, has repeatedly violated WP:BLP and other policies over this matter, and seems entirely incapable of understanding the need for proper sourcing, and the need to accurately report what sources say. The latest episode involves AnnerTown asserting as fact, in Misplaced Pages's voice, that a homeless man, arrested after an incident which ended in a stabbing, was "a Juggalo and former member of the guerrilla insurgent group Irish Republican Army". As the source cited makes clear, the man himself is alleged to have made such a claim - but the source makes no suggestion whatsoever that either statement is true. Furthermore, it should be noted that the source (from May last year) only refers to charges, and an upcoming court appearence - accordingly it is highly questionable per WP:BLP policy whether this incident would belong in the article even if it could be established that the man was a Juggalo gang member, which of course the source cited doesn't state: it says - correctly - that "Juggalos are fans of Insane Clown Posse, a horror-based rap group", and says nothing whatsoever about membership of any gang. Which of course makes the entire section off-topic for the article anyway. As for the BLP implications of Misplaced Pages asserting as fact that a homeless man is a member of an organisation frequently regarded as terrorist, I think nothing further needs to be said. There is a long history of dubious sourcing and BLP violations regarding this and related articles, and AnnerTown has been at the heart of it. Given that AnnerTown is now edit-warring to retain this gross violation of multiple policies, and given that AnnerTown's past history (which includes a ridiculously premature appeal to ArbCom , and a thread started at Dispute Resolution which AnnerTown conveniently disappeared from as soon as relevent questions were asked , as well as multiple earlier WP:BLP violations - I'll document these later if needed), I think it would be for the best to block AnnerTown indefinitely, on competence grounds, before more damage is done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Incidentally, it should be noted that as well as labelling a homeless person as an IRA member, the edit in question also states that " a group of men accosted him for wearing a Juggalo-related T-shirt" - which isn't supported by the source either. AnnerTown is at least consistent, in that everyone involved in the incident gets to be the subject of a WP:BLP violation... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hey. In my defense, I will say the following:

• AndyTheGrump here has been extremely rude and disruptive ever since I began writing at Misplaced Pages. You'll notice that all of his edits made in relation to the article in question are either to remove things, challenge things, or try to challenge the article itself. He's made it very clear that he's not interested in anything other than getting rid of the article (and now, apparently, the person who wrote it). He's also not talked this over with me at any length. He's only engaged in edit warring (of which I am also guilty) and done the absolute bare minimum for this to be reported at WP:ANI (a half-assed comment on my talk page), without attempting to resolve it peacefully.

• This whole wacky episode started when he accused me of a BLP violation because I added a sourced statement saying that a guy committed a crime, when the source said that he was in fact planning to plead guilty. I assume that Andy's problem was that he had not yet actually plead guilty, but of course he did not explain this to me, he just told me basically "you're not competent enough to edit Misplaced Pages." So I read over WP:BLP, added a source saying that he was convicted, and he removed the text AGAIN, even with a source, along with another area of text about a Juggalo criminal arrested for a stabbing. He claimed that it was a BLP violation to say that the guy who stabbed people was a member of the IRA, when he himself claimed to be a former member of the IRA. (FORMER member, which is probably why he's homeless.) This struck me as ridiculous, and (to no avail) I asked him what the problem was.

• AndyTheGrump, who is a much more experienced editor than I, did not bother to discuss any of the finer details of point #2 with me at all. He basically just said, "This is a BLP violation, and I want you blocked," and continued to edit war with me without explanation despite being asked what the problem was. If he would have said that "the problem is that he CLAIMS to be a member of the IRA, not that he IS one," then I would have simply changed the article to say that he "claimed". But an accurate Misplaced Pages article is not what he's aiming for here. He doesn't care if I have sources, or what the article itself says. He just wants me gone. I hope that whoever resolves this dispute will understand this and allow me to continue editing.

• As far as the WP:SPA accusation goes, I would agree that my edits are limited to a specific set of subjects, but I don't really think that I'm "advocating" anything. I wrote the Juggalo gang article because there are plenty of sources for this phenomenon, yet no Misplaced Pages article. I'm also working on a couple of other Misplaced Pages articles on my PC right now, so this will be a moot point in the near future anyhow.

• I have a life outside of Misplaced Pages, and I apologize that I forgot about the dispute resolution thing. I'm more than willing to try it again while I have some spare time. Please also consider that I don't spend a lot of time on Misplaced Pages, and I take frequent hiatuses as I travel, so I'm not as familiar with all of the policies and procedures as some people; I'm still getting used to things to some degree. I've edited Wikis in the past, but this is a whole new ball game, and I still have much to learn.

• I felt that the Juggalo/IRA thing belonged in this article because this article is dedicated to documenting the Juggalo criminal element, and it might damage the reputations of Juggalos who are not criminals if it were put in the main article. I've tried to make it abundantly clear through that article that Juggalos themselves are not dedicated criminals, and the criminal element makes up only a small population of the subculture, a position which is supported by most of the sources cited by the article. Clearly, this man was a criminal, and he belonged to that criminal element. This is something that should probably be discussed in the article's talk page instead of here, and I don't think anyone should be blocked for it either way.

• I am doing my best to understand Misplaced Pages policies and respond to Andy's complaints. He's doing his best to fail to provide me with relevant information and to get me blocked from Misplaced Pages. In my mind, that's what this boils down to.

• Finally, all of this should be discussed on the article's talk page in order to perhaps reach some sort of agreement. I'm not perfect, and for that matter neither is Andy, but no one needs to be blocked.

• Relevant diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Juggalos_%28gang%29&diff=597478005&oldid=597476990

AnnerTown (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

"Clearly, this man was a criminal, and he belonged to that criminal element." Um, no, repeating a WP:BLP violation on WP:ANI isn't going to do your case much good. The only thing that is 'clear' is that the source doesn't say (a) that he has been convicted of anything, (b) that he is/was a member of the IRA, or (c) that he is/was a member of any Juggalo gang... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know that Misplaced Pages wasn't allowed to cite arrests or criminal indictments until today, but what I meant was, he is a criminal if this is true. I'll give you that one, and I agree that this section can be removed until the court reaches a decision. Of course, you wait until we're on WP:ANI to give me these sorts of details, because you're trying to get me banned, not improve the article. Once again, that's what this boils down to. If you'd brought up any of the above issues on the article's talk page, using the detail that you are using here, they would have already been resolved, but it seems that's not the outcome that you are looking for. AnnerTown (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• AnnerTown (talk) - Ignorance of the community-adopted WP:BLPCRIME policy is no excuse to continually violate it, especially after being warned. Violations of the WP:BLPCRIME policy can be removed without discussion, because of legal ramifications to the Wikimedia organization (defamation). It's just that simple. Your edit-warring (even in ignorance of the policy) does not help your position very much. —Josh3580_talk/hist 06:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

AnnerTown, so what you are saying is that you didn't know that Misplaced Pages doesn't state that people are guilty before they have been convicted of a crime, and you needed this explained to you before you would stop edit-warring such claims into articles? Ridiculous.

And you have still to explain why you think that Misplaced Pages should be labelling someone a member of a terrorist organisation, based on nothing but a statement allegedly made by a homeless man under the influence of alcohol. Do you think that being drunk and homeless makes someone incapable of fabrications?

And furthermore you have still to explain why any of this belonged in an article entitled 'Juggalos (gang)' when no evidence whatsoever has been presented that the individual concerned was a member of any gang. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

1. Fair enough, but it certainly would have helped if someone had explained all this to me in the first place. I think it says a lot when someone recommends that I be blocked from editing altogether instead of simply telling me what I'm doing wrong. I'll try to do better in the future, but this was an honest mistake. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but I think that educating me would be more beneficial than blocking me outright. It's a bit extreme to punish me when I don't realize that I'm doing anything wrong, especially now that I better understand the policy. Even if a discussion isn't required to remove the material, AndyTheGrump did not reference WP:BLPCRIME in the IRA instance at all, so I didn't even realize it was an issue in that case until he posted it here. It's not fair to block me when I specifically ask "What is the problem here?" and get no response. Hell, the first time he reverted the edit, the edit summary simply consisted of "reb" without any clear explanation of what that meant or why the material was being removed: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Juggalos_%28gang%29&diff=597213933&oldid=597213310 AndyTheGrump should be working with me to improve the article, not being cryptic and attacking me. I am not his enemy, but he seems to believe otherwise. But I'll improve my editing in the future in that regard. Once again, I wasn't aware of that policy until today, and I apologize.

2. The article was originally titled "Criminal activity attributed to Juggalos" before being changed to "Juggalos (gang)", and I was operating under the assumption that it was not just limited to gang-related criminal activity, but to Juggalo-related criminal activity as a whole. I felt it would be better suited to place the information here than on the main Juggalo article. Furthermore, the article sourced just before that article, from the same news source, referred to "the Juggalo street gang, who are devoted fans of the horror-rap group Insane Clown Posse that participate in criminal activities." - http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/aug/06/juggalo-street-gang-member-arrested-after-attack-p/ But this is, once again, something that should be discussed and perhaps moved to another page, or simply removed.

3. Where are you getting the idea that he was intoxicated on alcohol? I didn't see that in the source. He CLAIMED that he had a few drinks. It didn't say that he was intoxicated, or even make any indication that his claims of drinking were true. Anyway, once again, this could have simple been changed to "alleged member" or "claimed he was a member" or even discussed this on the talk page. There is no chance of it being a legal liability since it came out of his mouth. AnnerTown (talk) 06:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but the "I wasn't told" argument won't wash, since I had already posted the following statement on the article talk page, in the thread you recently started: "WE DO NOT ASSERT AS FACT THAT PERSONS CHARGED BUT NOT YET CONVICTED WITH CRIMINAL OFFENCES HAVE IN FACT CARRIED OUT SUCH OFFENCES. EVER" That's right, I said it in block capitals. In bold. Not normally considered compliant with talk page etiquette, admittedly, but at least it should have been obvious. I'd have thought so, at least. And no, I'm not the slightest bit interested in discussing this elsewhere. You clearly lack the competence to be involving yourself in such controversial articles if you are unaware of such elementary legal principles as the presumption of innocence - which isn't just Misplaced Pages policy, but law. As for the rest of your comments, they merely illustrate further that you were more concerned with padding the article with negative material than with accurately reporting sources, and it doesn't matter a damn what was said elsewhere: we don't engage in original research to decide what we think sources are saying. The article cited didn't state that the man was a Juggalo gang member, so neither can we - and accordingly it doesn't belong in the article. As for the lack of 'legal liability', even if you are right in that the homeless man can't sue us you* for stating that he is an IRA member (which may or not be true - we are of course reporting it third-hand), we also owe a duty to our readers not to post random bullshit into articles just so we can pad out an article. AndyTheGrump (talk)

*Note. It is much more likely that the person getting sued in such circumstances would be the person responsible for the edit, rather than the WMF, who take great care to ensure that they aren't accountable for such things. Which they do by ensuring that policies such as WP:BLP are in place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

And further to you not being aware of WP:BLP policies, can you explain how you were unaware of the thread entitled "A gross violation of WP:BLP policy" that I posted on your talk page in January of last year, where I pointed out the multiple violations of policy you had already made? Why didn't you ask for an explanation then? AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

You never said that the IRA source had anything to do with WP:BLPCRIME, even after I had asked "What is the problem here?". You only indicated in your edit summaries that you were removing it because the idea that he was an IRA member violated WP:BLP, which is a completely different. I only learned about WP:BLPCRIME today, and it never once crossed my mind that it applied to the IRA source, since that's NOT what you said. I did figure out that the Norteno reference was related to WP:BLPCRIME after reading WP:BLP, and I added another source accordingly.

Also, the idea that I'm "only interested in negative information" is absolutely false and betrays your bias against me. Yes, I have added a lot of crimes committed by Juggalos, but I've also made sure that it is balanced out with an entire section on the differences between criminal and non-criminal Juggalos, as well as stating very clearly at the top of the page that not all Juggalos are criminals or gang members. My last major edit included quotes by police officers which have stated that not all Juggalos are gang members or criminals. This is an article about violent criminal activity. It's naturally going to have a lot of negativity. Violent criminal groups are not known for doing positive things!

But this has nothing to do with my competency as an editor, it just means that maybe the article doesn't read as well as it should. Andy is ironically just trying to pad this discussion with negative bullshit.

And I never said that he was a Juggalo gang member. You need your eyes checked. I said that this article was originally named Criminal activity attributed to Juggalos, and I was operating under the assumption that all Juggalo criminal activity would be better suited to that article than the main Juggalo article, because that's how the article started off. Maybe that's not the case, but if so, here is not the place to discuss it. (And I'm well aware that you're not interested in talking about it anywhere else, which only further betrays your bias - you just want me gone.)

As far as the old reivision of my talk page that you linked to, I doubt that I even read it or knew that it was there, considering that I apparently didn't respond. If I did, I certainly don't remember it. This was over a year ago when I knew very little about Misplaced Pages other than the basics. After this discussion, you can be sure that I won't forget again.

And yeah, I'm sure that lawsuit would go over real well:

HOMELESS JUGGALO: Hey, Judge. I said I was in the IRA, and then the news repeated what I said, and then Misplaced Pages repeated what the news said. Do I get money?

JUDGE: What the hell have you been smoking? Get out of my courtroom.

The rest of this discussion is just going to be me and Andy flinging shit at each other, apparently, so I'm done with it.

Closing argument, because I have to go to bed: STATicVapor has noted that while the article was awful when I first created it, and it still has issues, I have made an effort to clean it up and improve it. I will continue to do so. Blocking someone when they genuinely don't understand a Misplaced Pages policy is overkill, and I believe that the best course of action is to allow me to learn from my mistakes and grow as an editor, which I will make every attempt to do. AnnerTown (talk) 08:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, a clear lack of competence. AnnerTown "never said that he was a Juggalo gang member". but included him in an article on Juggalo gang members anyway. And thinks that's ok. And still thinks that Misplaced Pages should be labelling people as members of terrorists organisations based on a source that doesn't say that they are a member of a terrorist organisation. And thinks that just because they don't think they will get sued, that's ok. Ridiculous.

As for my 'bias', I'll freely admit to be biased against articles which declare people guilty prior to conviction, which cite material anonymously uploaded to filesharing websites as sources, and which still contain gross WP:BLP violations. I've just noticed that there is yet another assertion of guilt based on a source which refers to individuals who have been arrested, but not convicted - this time regarding an alleged murder. I have of course removed the offending material, but at this point, I think it may be wise to ask for the entire article to be revdel'd as sorting out the valid content from the policy violations is probably less effort than recreation from scratch with appropriate sourcing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

You repeatedly calling them a terrorist organization, when they are definitely not, is a WP:BLP violation. STATic message me! 15:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump is twisting the facts here, and this should be dismissed for that reason alone. The IRA is not a terrorist org, the suspects were convicted of the "alleged" murder that he just removed and complained was a WP:BLP violation, he claims that it's wrong to include Juggalo criminal activity in an article based on Juggalo criminal activity, and he's falsely claiming that I want to use "sources anonymously uploaded to file-sharing web sites", which is not the case at all (and all of the editors working on the article besides him want to keep the source in question). Now he's asking for the ENTIRE ARTICLE to be destroyed, not just whatever he believes is offending, along with all of the reliable sources used in it, and removed from public view (!), and asking for me to be banned, so that it cannot be easily rebuilt. His agenda here is clear as day. He's using underhanded tactics to get rid of an article that he doesn't like. AnnerTown (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

User:STATicVapor, that's splitting hairs. User:AndyTheGrump's initial statement insofar as that's concerned was that the IRA is "an organisation frequently regarded as terrorist," and the IRA's own article describes them as "a guerilla insurgent group." Terrorism is such a subjective word, but that a significant number of people do regard the IRA as terrorists should be uncontroversial, whether or not they actually are terrorists. - Jorgath (talk) 19:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the assertion that "the suspects were convicted of the 'alleged' murder that he just removed", that is entirely beside the point - WP:BLP policy is utterly clear: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". If they have been convicted, it is an absolute and non-negotiable requirement that a source be cited that says so. And for what it's worth I did a Google search, and couldn't find any evidence of conviction - not that I was under any obligation to do this. As for whether the IRA is a terrorist organisation or not, opinions differ - but it is an irrelevance, in that it is clearly a violation of WP:BLP policy to be describing an individual as a member of the organisation, on the dubious grounds that AnnerTown did. That AnnerTown quibbles over the legality of the IRA (Which IRA - there have been several organisations using the name, at least one of which is still engaging in bombings, shootings etc? And under which jurisdiction?) suggest to me that my comments regarding competence are still valid. Anyone with an ounce of sense, never mind a passing knowledge of Misplaced Pages policy, should understand that one does not describe someone as a member of "a guerilla insurgent group" without very strong grounds indeed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• The Provisional Irish Republican Army (which the term "IRA" is most commonly used to refer to when talking about recent history) is legally a terrorist group, so STATicVapor's comment is inaccurate. Being blunt, AnnerTown should be indefinitely blocked until they agree to follow WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME, and not to plead ignorance (this account has been around since November 2012, so not having ever looked at BLP at the very least is an unacceptable excuse). Interesting to note that that a month after the talk-page discussion went stale, and after a 5-month absence, AnnerTown popped up with this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:15, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Further gross violation of WP:BLP policy in the Juggalos (gang) article.

For some strange reason, User:Niteshift36, who clearly should be aware of Misplaced Pages policies by now, has decided to edit-war a clear and unambiguous violation of WP:BLP policy back into the article. The source cited describes "two men arrested in connection with attack" which left a man dead, as Juggalos, and states that the victim "called himself a "Juggalo," but it's alleged he snitched and lost his life for that" - all allegations, nothing in the source stating that there has been any conviction. The material Niteshift36 has repeatedly restored to the article states that " was found dead in the woods after having been stabbed more than 20 times with a meat cleaver by Juggalo gang members after it was alleged that he was a police informant. The culprits were discovered after a member of the gang wrote a horrorcore rap song about the incident and posted it on MySpace" - an unequivocal assertion of guilt, entirely unsupported by the source cited. Since, unlike AnnerTown above, claims regarding the ignorance of policy clearly won't fool anyone, I can see no reason whatsoever why Niteshift36 shouldn't be indefinitely blocked for a gross violation of core WP policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Protected. I don't have time to read very far into this one tonight, but I didn't like the back and forth on a BLP and protection is better than blocking. --John (talk) 00:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm edit warring? Grow up. You've been reverted by at least 3 separate editors. You keep acting like your interpreta(tion is the only valid one. If there is anyone here who is edit warring, it's you and if this system works at all, there really should be a WP:BOOMERANG headed your way. When edit warring with one editor didn't work, you came here. You've failed to find the mandate you wanted and another experience editor started reverting you, yet you continued to edit war, hiding behind a false BLP shield. Then you started edit warring with me too. You have no moral high ground here. You have no consensus. What you have is a raging case of article ownership and some WP:IDHT. As for your request for an indef block: Go hump someone else's leg. (spare me the whining about civil because that's just hypocritical from you). Since you've expressed your intent to not discuss anything , addressing your objection is pointless. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I note that Niteshift36 has offered no defence whatsoever for violating core Misplaced Pages policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:53, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Apparently you didn't note that I rejected your claim that it violates BLP. So no, I didn't defend myself because it's not happening. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

So an assertion that identifiable individuals committed a murder cited to a source that doesn't state that they committed a murder doesn't violate WP:BLP? That is an interesting interpretation of policy. Not one that will get you far though, I suspect. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Nothing says that committed the crime. It says it's believed that they did. We're not making the claim, the reliable source is reporting the belief. What I find interesting is how you seem to think none of us can read the policy correctly, only you can. In any case, your IDHT gets worse by the minute and talking to you is clearly pointless because you've already said there is nothing to discuss. I might discuss this with someone else, but I'm done entertaining your self-centered nonsense. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing says that theyy committed the crime? "stabbed more than 20 times with a meat cleaver by Juggalo gang members"? "The culprits were discovered..."? And that isn't an assertion that the individuals named in the source were guilty? Ridiculous... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• The article clearly calls them "the accused". Trying to cherry pick a sentence won't make you right. We're talking about ABC freakin News here, not some blog. They know about libel laws. You're just being a pain in the ass. Niteshift36 (talk)

• Oh, guess what? This is all fucking pointless. They were convicted.. Life without parole. Convicted in 2011. That took me 45 seconds to find. All this whining, bitching and teeth gnashing about BLP and you never bothered to look to see that it has already gone to trial, they were convicted and sentence. Can we PLEASE put this bullshit to rest now. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The article asserted their guilt, based on a source that didn't say that they were guilty. Per WP:BLP policy, the material had to be removed. Not left until someone found a source. The policy is clear and non-negotiable. And if it was that easy to find, why didn't you find it yourself, rather than edit-warring to revert the WP:BLP violation? YOU are responsible for your edits - its not my responsibility to go around after you cleaning up your mess. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• the article called them the accused. They'd been arrested and charged. This is not a BLP issue. As for the rest of your excuse making and wound licking: You can try to save face all you want, but I don't see anyone rushing to your aid. Now, I'd love to see you do the honorable thing and contact the admin that locked the article and tell him the true issue is solved. Personally, I doubt you will. Maybe you'll prove me wrong. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Which article called them the accused? Ours didn't. It called them "culprits". Do you own a dictionary? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• The ABC news article that was the source. If you are solely talking about the wording in the Misplaced Pages article, then you're even more wrong. You shouldn't have removed it, merely reworded it. As for a dictionary, I have one and it includes the word "pointless", which is what this conversation has become. They were convicted already. Be a stand up guy, accept it and work in the best way to include it in the article, not this pointless (there is that word again) campaign of windmill tilting. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Yup. The material you repeatedly added misrepresented the source, and violated WP:BLP policy in doing so. I carried out WP:BLP policy by removing it: "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Be a stand-up guy and admit you were wrong to violate policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry you're unable to let it go. The material WILL go back in the article. Sorry you wasted all this time fighting a losing battle. I won't admit there was a violation because there was none. On the other hand, we HAVE proven they were convicted, there is no longer a BLP concern and your refusal to ask that the article be unlocked shows me you are exactly who I thought you are. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:33, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Evidently you are incapable of understanding the simple instructions in WP:BLP. It seems my suggestion that you be blocked indefinitely was justified. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Evidently you're incapable of understanding simple English. It seems that my suggestion that you go hump someone else's leg is justified. BTW, I took care of contacting the locking admin since you've proven to be the (self-censor) that I knew you'd be. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Some are entertained watching a brawl, but it is time to point out that Andy is fully correct. Adding a negative claim about a living person based on a source that does not support that claim is a BLP violation, and Andy was required to remove it. If it is true that another source has been located that allows the claim to be reinstated, suitable material could be added. Niteshift36 should spend more time listening and less time working on insults. Johnuniq (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Still without taking a position on the details of the content dispute, I have blocked Niteshift36 for the leg-humping comment and his various other bits of rudeness. --John (talk) 11:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I need help to move a page over a redirect

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I want to change the name of the page Draugr to Draug. Draug was however its original name, and is now a redirect. Since i can not move a page to an already excisting page (even though it's only a redirect) I need an administrator to do this. KnutfAen (talk) 15:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this is fine, I looked at Talk:Draug to see the discussion that led to the original move, and it looks like the discussion was mostly about merging Draug and Draugr, and very little discussion about which should take precedence. You've taken the time to ask at Talk:Draugr and nobody raised an objection. I'll perform the move now, in such a way to preserve the old discussion at the Draug talk page (just by copying it to Talk:Draugr before I do the move). I don't think histmerge is necessary since the two articles were merged at one point, and it would leave an unnecessarily confusing and misleading edit history to do so. -- Atama頭 16:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The move is done, and Draugr now redirects to Draug. -- Atama頭 16:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

@Atama: A history merge was not necessary, but it was necessary to preserve the old history for attribution of the older edits. To this end I have moved it to Talk:Draug/Old history. I've also restored the earlier edits to the talk page – overlapping history doesn't matter there so much. Graham87 07:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for the help. -- Atama頭 17:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Family / friends tag-teaming on an article on fringe claim of vaccine killing someone

The family and friends of Al Plastino are tag-teaming to perpetuate their edit-warring with a WP:FRINGE claim that a flu vaccine gave him Guillain-Barré. One editor on the article talk page misrepresents the CDC, which contrary to this editor does not say flu vaccines give people Guillain-Barré. The article states clearly that Plastino suffered from Guillain-Barré, with citing. But no disinterested, unbiased source claims the vaccine killed him — only the family, which has something to gain by putting that claim on Misplaced Pages as a way to bolster any lawsuit. They also make an additional claim that's untrue. This hijacking of a Misplaced Pages page by the subject's family and friends to push a fringe view unsupported by any source other than themselves is shameful. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I've left JohnRTroy a warning about adding original research to Misplaced Pages. I see that the page has also been protected as well for the duration of this dispute. -- Atama頭 21:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Protected for a week. Miniapolis 21:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

While I appreciate the claim originated from the family one of who wrote something asking for wikipedia to be changed, is there any real evidence they are the ones editing? Seems more likely to be people who didn't know the subject personally but were influenced by the article such as fans of someone who looks likely to have many. Nil Einne (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it matters who's doing the editing (they're registered accounts, hence the full protection); the repeated insertion of the unreliably-sourced claim is the deciding factor. All the best, Miniapolis 21:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

A few quick notes. Mark Evanier is a noted comics journalist, and he's actually considered a reliable source, being quoted several times in the actual article, so if Atama is going to say I used "original research", then all the Evanier quotes would need to be removed. There is precedent of him being considered a reliable source in the comics field. Secondly, I tried to act in good faith, citing the source accurately and leaving it alone. The argument seemed to start with the Guillian-Barre claim. I saw nothing suspect in that claim, as the WP itself cites a reliable source that links GBS to any form of the virus including vaccines, although I can see why people might be concerned. I regret that it escalated to this point--however, I do feel that Tenebrae could have avoided this by not suddenly and completely reverting the article and responding in a confrontational manner like he did in the talk page. I have never encountered this issue before, and I also felt rather than assume the page was "under attack" (it certainly wasn't), he immediately went here, bypassing even getting the working group on comics involved. JRT (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The page was under attack, whatever the intentions are. When 3 editors arrive at an article to tag team and inject information into it, inserting information on 5 different occasions, that's an edit war. I will concede that Tenebrae violated WP:3RR by reverting 4 times in 24 hours, and if he had not brought the issue here in an attempt to stop the edit war I would have blocked him (though that would be punitive at this point). -- Atama頭 22:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. You're right — I'd honestly thought I was right at 3, and even said something to that effect on one or more of the talk pages. I shouldn't have gone over, but it was inadvertent. Thank you for being understanding.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

JRT is mixing apples and orange. Mark Evanier is a reliable source on comics and TV, not medicine. As well, the post this editor mentions is not Evanier's independent reporting: Evanier himself did not research and make the statement about vaccines causing GBS. All Evanier did is accept a family member's quote at face value and disseminate it with a headline literally reading "Let's Correct Misplaced Pages on Something!" That's not what I would call rigorous journalism, and it's certainly out of his field of expertise.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Let's back up a second, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. This is a biographical article about a comics professional, and Evanier is quoted a lot and has provided reliable information in the past. At least in the past he's been considered a reliable source, even in that very article. I think he's reliable when he wants to correct the cause of death of Plastino, and he's got the connections to be a reliable source for the quote of family members based on his track record and his own quotes as sources. Try to understand something--From my own perspective, you seem more offended he used that title in his article (in the talk page, you rant about it), when I can understand how exasperating it is to have to be quoted in print before you can correct an error on WP (I've been on WP longer than you, though not as active, so I'm no novice), then used the GBS quote as an excuse to revert, apparently not understanding that it can be linked to flu vaccinations, at least according to all the research, which was the main reason you reverted the page. Then we got into an argument over the cause of GBS, and all I saw was somebody make accusations over my editing motives, then immediately escalate it here without even wanting to discuss it with the other Comics group right away. From my perspective, you came across (and are coming across) as somebody who's hostile and letting his own personal ego get in the way of edits, and are getting emotional over having your own edits changed. Even in the talk page and the WP:Comics page, you are coming across as hostile, thinking I'm "threatening an edit war" on the WP:COMICS talk when I just want other comics experts involved in evaluating the statement. (Since it ends up being a class of egos if just two people disagree) JRT (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

You make a good case for accepting as reliable the report of a claim by a family member. For the specific point that this injection actually caused Guillain–Barré syndrome, and that it did so in this case, I suggest that we would need relevant expert opinion. Not, on this point, the report of comics experts. Richard Keatinge (talk) 23:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, I honestly don't care if the claim of his death by the vaccine should be part of Misplaced Pages, just that he died of the disease. The only two things I'd want to correct in the article would be (a) to find out if he did have Prostate Cancer and (b) that he died of GBS. The only other thing I'd change is I would bring back my reference to Evanier's blog (which was deleted on revert), but I wouldn't put the actual claim about the vaccine in the text of the GBS itself. In fact, I didn't actually write that, the only place the claim appeared was in the quote text in the reference. Beyond that I'd be happy. I do think the blog entry should be sourced since other references to that blog are sourced and it would be hypocritical not to source it unless you want to challenge all the other sources in that article. I simply don't think Evanier had any "hidden agenda" in his post other than to correct a cause of death. JRT (talk) 23:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Mark Evanier is certainly a reliable source in several fields and a person for whom I have an enormous amount of respect. I take him at his word that he indeed verified that the email was from a family member and by extension that a family member would know the cause of death. But that said I see no reason to include the flu-vaccine claim in the article. If a prominent scientist were killed in an auto accident, we wouldn't generally need to include the make, model, and colour of the other car. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Well put; I myself have quoted Evanier on comics history many times, and find him a knowledgable and engaging host of comics panels at conventions. But we can't cite his blog for medical information. He's not even quoting a medical expert stating concretely that the vaccine killed Plastino, but a biased, non-disinterested family member who is not a medical expert and who stands to gain by disseminating a claim that would make the vaccine makers and medical personnel liable. And in concurrence with Andrew Lenahan, is a cause of death even particularly necessary when we're talking about a 91-year-old?

No one mentioned anything about Evanier having an "agenda," but the cited item certainly does mention his dissatisfaction with his own experiences with Misplaced Pages, so I wouldn't necessarily call him objective.

RE "to find out if he did have Prostate Cancer" — why does JRT refuse to read Maryann Plastino's own quote to the New York Post a month before Plastino's death that, yes, Plastino had prostate cancer. It's right in the footnotes, for heaven's sake.

And P.S to JRT: Please stop using words like "rant". And your comments about my "ego" and "hostility" are uncivil. All I see is a host of editors here and on other pages in agreement that Evanier's blog is not a reliable source for the killer-vaccine claim. So I'm not sure who's the one being unreasonable here. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Evanier's dissatisfaction with WP seems more like frustration. Criticism of WP doesn't imply he's biased against it, or that he was trying to start a protest, just a correction. In fact, if he's considered a bad unobjective source, he shouldn't be quoted elsewhere in the same article. I did not "refuse" to read the source, as I have reviewed the sources better you are correct about the prostate cancer (unless MaryAnn is trying to recant that statement or was misquoted), and I have already admitted I jumped the gun--while there is some concern about vaccines and GBS it's not likely to be provable cause of death unless it's on their death certificate. But as far as "civility" goes, I'm sorry, I think you deserve some criticism for being antagonistic. I doubt this would have escalated to this state if you had been a little more welcoming, not immediate reverted an edit, and instantly assuming that there was a deliberate attempt to bias the article. In fact, if one of these other uses brought up the same point as articulately as they've done here, there probably wouldn't have been an issue here. JRT (talk) 01:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

And as far as "ego" goes, I was making a statement when two people get into a WP edit war, it's mostly a battle of individual egos, so I'm making fun of myself here as well, which is why when this comes up I always try to solicit others to review and break the ties. JRT (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

There are two things here. I agree it doesn't matter who is editing the article in terms of protecting it, but that's beside my point (you'd note I never said anything about the protection) which is the second thing we shouldn't forget about. Family and friends of the subject is likely a select group of people at least some of who would be easily identifiable. Tag teaming a wikipedia article would often be seen in a negative way and therefore accusing identifiable living people of it should not be done with out some evidence they are actually involved for WP:BLP reasons. This is even more so when we have no evidence of any involvement of said people in editing wikipedia at all (which from what I can tell, is the case here). And in a case like this where as I've emphasised, there is good reason to think there would be plenty of people who should not be called 'family and friends' who may come to edit. Just because we aren't happy about something that's going on or other stuff that people have done is no excuse to accuse those people of involvement in something related with no evidence. The fact is doesn't matter is a reason not to make such accusations in the first place. It doesn't mean we should ignore it when such accusations are made. Nil Einne (talk) 12:05, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

That was my biggest objection to the whole thing. It was being accused of both being a family member--I am not, I simply read Evanier's blog regularly--and engaging in "Fringe Science". When my edit was rejected for that reason, I looked up GBS, and discovered that at least one time it has been linked to a vaccine, and it sounds like a legitimate concern. Obviously I was wrong and it's inconclusive, though there does seem to be enough caution regarding GBS to have some warnings. But also, the simple quote may not have enough information--perhaps the family meant to say he died due to complications from it and it didn't come out clearly in the quote. But Tenebrae instantly took an accusatory tone, saying "This evident desire to use Misplaced Pages to help the family score a big lawsuit settlement is shameful.", as well as assuming this was some coordinated effort. That's actually a potentially libelous statement since nothing in that source says anything about a lawsuit or the like. If the tone of the discussion had been kept on the civility levels that have occurred here, I doubt we'd even be talking about it. Sometimes, being nice is important in these discussions. JRT (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of people try to use Misplaced Pages to promote FRINGE ideas, and there are lots of places where one can lookup information that is totally bogus. The cause of death of the individual (last time I looked) is not known. The fact that someone might think that a vaccine was involved is irrelevant and cannot be used as the basis to assert the cause of death. There is no reason for an article to note what uninformed people think about the cause of death. Johnuniq (talk) 09:18, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Mthinkcpp and Debian edit war

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am trying to introduce these changes. There is a discussion in the talk page. mthinkcpp refuses to discuss what is wrong with the changes. Repeatedly refusing to discuss changes, especially controversial ones, is considered a conduct issue. Therefore I bring this issue to the administrator's noticeboard. 84.127.80.114 (talk) 22:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• It seems to me that User:Mthinkcpp's explanation of WP:SILENCE is correct. I don't understand the content side of the issue, nor am I going to try, having been awake now for 16 hours on 4 hours of sleep. But if they gave their position earlier, and you gave yours, and they're different, then consensus has not been reached. - Jorgath (talk) 04:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

This is not about whether consensus has been reached. This is about discussion. This is about a user that systematically opposes to my changes without sensible reasons. mthinkcpp has stated to be against these changes. The user does not give a reason.

Does this situation mean that discussion on the talk page has gone as far as it could? 84.127.80.114 (talk) 10:50, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Since there's only you and one other editor participating, I suggest opening a WP:RFC to try to attract more editors to the discussion. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

This is now at DRN (Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Debian). DRN has the following policy:

"We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other dispute resolution forums."

So I would ask that this be closed. It has been my experience that solving the content dispute solves any user conduct issues, and if not, someone can refile here after the DRN case closes. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Brianis19 — Continued copyright violations despite multiple warnings

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brianis19 (talk · contribs) continues to introduce copyright violations to television-related pages despite multiple warnings on his talk page since October.,,,,,,,,,. He copy/pastes the episode summaries from various sites on the internet with no regard to these warnings. In fact, his recent comment to another editor after a warning was "Well then fix it yourself!!!". He has been told these need to be in his own words. This is an ongoing problem, and I am certain he has many other instances of copyvios that have either not been discovered or that he was not warned about when they were reverted (e.g. ,,, (note his edit summary says he wrote them himself, but this was not the case. He was intentionally trying to deceive). --Logical Fuzz (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I have indeffed him and opened Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Brianis19. The "fix it yourself" attitude is totally unacceptable.

That would be the third non-communicative copyvio editor I've indeffed and CCIed today. SIGH. MER-C 12:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Australian sport naming rules; please review this process and my block of Macktheknifeau

See here for a taste of the regular and frequent disruption that has been caused to our project by the long-term dispute over whether the game Misplaced Pages knows as association football should be known as soccer, football or something else in an Australian context. With a view to clarifying different understandings of the consensus here, I asked some of the disputants to comment here. Most have responded positively, but User:Macktheknifeau has continued to post personal comments after being warned to stop here, and in spite of the clear instruction at the discussion (For now, please restrict yourselves to stating your own opinion in your own section about the article titles and content, and how this is justified by the consensus. Comments about the opinions and supposed motivations of other editor will be removed.) I have therefore blocked him for 24 hours. Please review the process generally and the block specifically. Thanks for your time. --John (talk) 11:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I think John has A Tiger by the Tail, in that he is attempting to concurrently mediate an interaction nominally about content and enforce civility on the participants with admin tools. The problem is, as indicated by the arbcom finding and the dead in all but name RFC Civility enforcement RFC, we don't have a functional civility policy, which inevitably makes enforcing it ultimately subjective and arbitrary. I've been watching the conversation unfold and participating in my minimalist fashion -- I don't think there is really much of actual content dispute, as there was an RFC last August with a pretty clear consensus ("soccer"). What I saw was tedious WP:IDHT pov-pushing -- including arguments that a local consensus can override commonname with ad hominem attacks against the editor (HiLo48) trying to maintain the article in accordance with policy. Unfortunately, while HiLo48 is a decent editor, they are not skilled at wiki-politics / infighting, which leads to a seriously tl;dr merry-go-round talk page, which makes it time consuming to pick out the signal in all the noise. It is an interesting experiment in dispute resolution and I'm curious to see how it will turn out; 1K WQA and 2K ANI edits have made me a bit cynical about the chances for success but I've been wrong before and hopefully I'll be wrong this time. NE Ent 12:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Macktheknifeau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After checking User talk:Macktheknifeau I agree that User:John made an appropriate decision to block. To get the flavor of this user's attitude, notice their unblock request: "There is an ongoing attack from users connected to Project AFL to destroy football on Australian based wikipedia articles and they are deeply involved in this issue. You cannot silence me and are merely showing yourself to be a pawn of their wiki-lawyering by letting their ludicrous attacks get the better of you." In my opinion the unblock request was correctly declined by User:Jpgordon. The latest consensus discussion that led to the naming of football-related articles seems to be the one from August 2013 at Talk:Soccer in Australia/Archive 3. EdJohnston (talk) 13:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• NE Ent correctly points out the difficulties surrounding the type of mediation that John is attempting, but the effort is very much worthwhile. I have been supporting HiLo48's attempts regarding this issue since seeing it erupt on some noticeboards, but I would put NE Ent's comments more strongly: HiLo48 has switched to being part of the problem—this is a website based on a self-governing community; badgering John (example) shows that HiLo48 is in full battleground mode. It's obvious that John is attempting to get the participants to actually think about what the August 2013 RfC said, then think about whether any new evidence is available that would justify continuing the dispute. The fact that people are unable to stand back and let that happen shows a topic ban might be required because perpetual bickering is intolerable. The block of Macktheknifeau is clearly justified, and if other participants cannot let a week pass without kicking an opponent, more blocks will be needed. In case people are unaware, the bite in John's mediation is that if it blows up, the matter will be brought to ANI where recent examples of the behavior of those involved will be hung out to dry. Johnuniq (talk) 01:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I feel the need to apply some self defence here. In recent months I have not broken rules here. Others have. It was primarily because of persistent abuse directed at me and others at Talk:Soccer in Australia that John's process began. It's still happening. I am NOT part of this problem, but I am being treated by John as if I am. I am being asked to again go through a process I've been through many times before. This repeated process apparently includes still being insulted. John gave a "final warning" (his words) to one of the editors in question, shortly after this editor returned from a block for throwing insults at me on my Talk page. Within hours that editor told me I needed "think a bit more rationally". John has declared that's not a personal attack. I disagree. In trying to be even handed, John is treating me like an offender, and allowing what I see as unacceptable and unhelpful behaviour from others. I find it incredibly difficult to maintain faith with that process. I don't see that as a battleground mentality. I've made a massive effort here to conform with a culture different from my own, and am still being treated like dirt. HiLo48 (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Tristan.andrade.136 - Concerns about competence

Hi, I'm concerned that User:Tristan.andrade.136 may not have the competence to edit constructively.

The user, who we are to believe is a kid, has been warned at least six times not to submit unsourced content, three times not to misuse flag icons, at least five times about disruptive editing, and twice to be mindful of spelling. User has created misspelled articles on Mari Tranior (presumably Trainor), Luitenent Gadget (Lieutenant), has submitted the word "vocied" instead of "voiced" at least six times: ( ) and continues to add flag icons without any rationale, requiring the assumption that the user is describing two different language dubs, maybe? User has made other peculiar edits like this one. User created an article on Walter's Christmas, which is written very poorly, contains no references and appears to contain copypasta, possibly from here or here. User has created another article here. (Come to think of it, here is a list of all the articles they have created.) User has removed proper {{Start date}} and {{End date}} templates here. More misspellings here, which could have been prevented as "its" and "premiere" appear earlier in the same sentence. It doesn't seem to me that the user understands our procedures and I question their ability to contribute constructively at this time. User was previously blocked in October 2013 by Zad68 and indicated that he wouldn't continue the disruptions, but it's clear that the user (assuming they aren't doing this deliberately) doesn't understand what they are doing is disruptive and doesn't have the ability to preempt or fix the problems they create. Rather than do nothing but template, I have tried on at least two occasions to make an impact through explanation, and I have also recommended the mentorship program to the user. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I spelled "Lieutenant" as "Leftenant" for years. In fact, I still pronounce it that way, just like others seem to do. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I respect your right to pronounce it as such. :) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Mentorship seems best? Obviously a kid who doesn't quite understand dangers of revealing personal information, has undeveloped language, lacks understanding why refs are important etc. If someone would like to kindergarten this guy, that would be the best, I think.Arildnordby (talk) 20:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps. It's unclear what their primary language is. Based on their other interactions with users I don't know how easy it will be to help them, because they don't seem capable of expressing themselves well, or comprehending what others communicate.. I'm personally a little suspicious of behavior this consistently poor, particularly when I've seen a number of vandals who feign naivety and promise to improve, then don't. But that's just my own hangup, I suppose. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

His native language appears to be French Canadian based on this edit on his page where it states he lives in Montreal  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   20:33, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Moved to WP:BLP/N – LFaraone 22:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

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