Talk:Saving Mr. Banks - Misplaced Pages

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Article

As principle filming is confirmed as having commenced, the topic meets our primary notability criteria, and as policy specifcally allows that it "is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced", it has been requested that this article be re-evaluated and considered for return to mainspace under WP:FFEXCEPTIONS.

The contentions here are that since incubation, the coverage of the topic of Saving Mr. Banks is proving itself enduring and persistent in multiple reliable sources and over an extended period (thus dealing with violations of WP:NOTNEWS) and there is too much verifiable information in an article (whose topic is "discussion about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur") to be reasonably placed anywhere else as no suitable merge or redirect target exists. Schmidt, 06:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Assessment

Article incubation assessment

Does the article establish notability of the subject ?
A. It meets the general notability guideline:

B. It meets any relevant subject specific guideline:
Is it verifiable?
A. It contains references to sources:

B. There are inline citations of reliable sources where necessary:

C. There is no original research:
Is it neutral?
A. It is a fair representation without bias:

B. It is written in a non-promotional manner:
It does not contain unverifiable speculation:
Pass, Fail or Hold for three months: passes, graduate to mainspace

Reader feedback: I am looking for information...

99.45.57.226 posted this comment on 16 December 2013 (view all feedback).

I am looking for information on the book that "Saving Mr. Banks" was based on.

Any thoughts?

The film is not derived from a book, hence there would be no information on such a book in the article. It was, however, initially inspired by a documentary which is mention in the first paragraph of the production section. ∆ nbmatt 23:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

While not based on them per se, the film does acknowledge Mary Poppins, She Wrote: The Life of P.L. Travers by Valerie Lawson and Moose by Robert B. Sherman. Trivialist (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

I've removed these recent additions because they fail to provide any encyclopedic analysis whatsoever. They are simply a list of real-life events that don't attempt to connect to their portrayal of events shown on-screen—therefore they don't prove or disprove anything. In addition, many of these claims are actually incorrect in labeling the film's events as inaccurate for the following reasons;

The film depicts Travers coming to terms with Disney's changes to her story and appreciating the film version of Mary Poppins. In reality, she continued to disapprove of the dilution of the harsher aspects of Mary Poppins' character, felt ambivalent about the music, and so hated the use of animation that she ruled out any further adaptations of the later Mary Poppins novels.

Travers never does fully appreciate Disney's film version in Saving Mr. Banks. This is one of the main conflicts in the film's plot. She disapproves a majority of the character changes, is highly critical of the screenplay, is reluctant to accept the Sherman Brothers' music, and her dislike for the animated sequences is prevalent throughout the film, such as the scene where she leaves the studio without handing over the rights. No inaccuracy.

Disney overruled her objections, citing contract stipulations that he had final say on the finished print.

In the end, Disney gets his version of the film. No inaccuracy there.

At the film's premiere, which she wasn't invited to and had to confront a producer to be allowed to go, Travers reportedly approached Disney and told him that the animated sequence had to go.

In the film, Travers is also not invited to the premiere. Instead, she has to goad Disney and the studio into allowing her to attend. No inaccuracy there either. Disney's rebuttal of Travers' request regarding the animated sequences, is not even brought up in the film in the first place, as the film ends before the event even happens. How can a film be considered inaccurate for something that doesn't take place in the confines of the film's runtime?

Enraged at what she considered shabby treatment at Disney's hands, Travers would never again agree to another Poppins/Disney adaptation.

In the 1964 scenes, Travers admits to her agent that she will never allow any more film adaptations of her novels ever again. Again, no inaccuracy there.

So fervent was Travers' dislike of the Disney adaptation and of the way she felt she had been treated during the production, that when producer Cameron Mackintosh approached her about the stage musical when she was into her 90s, she acquiesced on the condition that no one from the film production were to be directly involved with creating the stage musical.

This has no relevance to the events portrayed in this film and should not even be included at all.

~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 19:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The inaccuracy:

In the movie, Travers is completely aware of every element of the Disney adaptation when she signs over the rights of the book to him. She disapproves of some of the changes to her story, but agrees with Disney that people should see the redemption of the Mr. Banks character on screen, which is something sentimental to her. She’s told by Disney to let go, and let him make the movie he knows people will love, with his changes intact. She relents and agrees. It’s portrayed as a tearful, cathartic moment for her. They’re communicating that this moment is her moving on from the grief and guilt of losing her father, by letting Disney make his Mary Poppins.

What actually happened was that Disney made those story changes without her approval, and that she fought those changes until she lost, because the contract she signed gave Disney final cut of the film. But even then she pursued him to change the movie to something more in line with her original story. “That ship has sailed,” is what Disney told Travers at the premiere.

She was furious that these changes weren’t going to be reserved. This alone is in direct contradiction with the movie, where she’s aware of every change that’s going to be present in the film when she signs over the rights to Disney and gives her blessing to make the movie. Travers hated the Disney movie. She hated it all her life. She fought those changes all the way through production until after the movie was released. You would never get that impression from Saving Mr. Banks. This is an inaccuracy, and it’s the entire backbone of the climax of the movie.

Since the movie spends so much time giving one impression, I feel that it's important to paint the whole picture of what the production was actually like for Travers, including the effect that it had on her afterwards, which is important to illustrate the contradiction. I don’t know where Jedi94 is coming from, but I can tell you that Disney would not like this section included in this article. The Mary Poppins (film) article was pretty much whitewashed as well. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 20:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct that the article needs to provide a neutral point of view. The current problem with the added content, however, is that there is no clear distinction or connection being made between the real events and their portrayal in the film. If such inaccuracies were made in the film, the section needs to make that clear with verifiable, objective evidence to support it. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 21:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The current problem with the added content, however, is that there is no clear distinction or connection being made between the real events and their portrayal in the film.

That's not true.

If such inaccuracies were made in the film, the section needs to make that clear with verifiable, objective evidence to support it.

Everything is sourced. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 22:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Brief replies will not improve your argument. Please stop reverting my edits without prior discussion or explanation, as I'm attempting to mediate the issue by improving your contributions. My revised version has better sentence fluency and more accurate tertiary sources to back up the inaccuracy claims. Stop adding the information regarding the stage adaptation, as that has no direct relevance to the subject of the film's accuracy. Also, be aware that you are now engaged in an edit-war and are now liable for any further actions. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 22:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

You haven't given me much to work with - and still haven't here. You haven't acknowledged my original explanation in any meaningful way. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 23:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't realize that at some point you had done some work on the section instead of deleting it. I've restored some of your edits. However, the section that describes how history contracts the movie's plot belongs below the section which describes the plot. I've moved it back to its original position. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 23:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Jedi94, per WP:FILMDIFF, "Creating a section that merely lists the differences is especially discouraged." You need to be able to show why the changes were made or how the changes affected production.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 22:50, 7 March 2014 (UTC) Sorry I thought this was based on a book, but still WP:FILMHIST says "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." No explanations are given in the section.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. If WP:FILMHIST is saying that a source is needed to explain the movie's inaccuracies, even when both the film's plot and the history are well sourced, then there's nothing I can do. This information will continue to be hidden. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 23:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Wait, I'm sorry. The Vulture source, listed #8 in the Inaccuracies section, does exactly what's requires - it compares and contrasts the movie's plot with what actually happened, point by point. The other sources then expand on Travers' dissatisfaction to further illuminate the inaccuracy described.96.228.59.201 (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

As I, and now TriiipleThreat, have been saying; the content needs to be put into context in the article, not have it be present in a third-party source and have the reader figure it out themselves. Using the Vulture source (or any of the other source I've provided) as a foundation for writing and expanding the in-context explanation is fine. This is what I was in the midst of working on, when you reverted my edits without providing a reason. The content in the inaccuracies section has either got to be expanded as explained here to justify its encyclopedic inclusion, or removed altogether. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 00:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

You disagreed that there was any historical contradiction at all. That's what the meat of this debate has been about. I agree, however, that according to WP:FILMHIST, inaccuracies must be cited by a source specifically pointing out the inaccuracy. But that's been done from the start. I agree, though, that the new version of the section is better with some of your modifications, Jedi94. However, the last paragraph about the stage musical is a fully sourced expansion on the idea that Travers was put off by her experience working with Disney, information that has been justified as relevant to the section by the Vulture source. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 00:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for accepting my modifications, although I still feel that the stage adaptation information is just excess material, as Travers' subsequent attitude regarding her experience with Disney is already and adequately underlined in the preceding phrase (Travers vowing to never allow Disney to adapt any of her other novels). It would be more appropriate to include that information in other related articles where it is more relevant, such as Mary Poppins (film) (which you did add), Mary Poppins, or P.L. Travers. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 00:36, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Explaining that Travers still held resentment into her 90's is new information that is absolutely relevant to the section. She never came around on the issue. Her hatred for the Disney movie was carried through her entire life. This paints a stark contrast to what you might expect after seeing the movie. You never would have assumed it was so serious. 96.228.59.201 (talk) 08:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

"Expecting" and "assuming" something from the film, such as "facts, allegations, and ideas" is an example of original research, which is disallowed on Misplaced Pages. We can only present facts that are directly supported and verified by existing reliable, published sources. This section is supposed to analyze the film's accuracy in terms of the events that happen during the film, not decades later, as such an inclusion forms a bias, which also goes against the policy of having content be written in neutral point of view. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 19:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

It appears most of the issue here has been resolved, as I'm reading it. However, I must agree with Jedi94, that the info regarding the Broadway adaption does not really have a purpose on this page. That should be removed, and possibly put elsewhere, if needed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:20, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

The connection with the musical has been made by several sources in relation to the premiere scene, where she is deeply touched by the father figure. Critics have noted that she was angry in reality, and have further explained how this affected the relation between Disney's corp and the writer for later projects. As the section is about critics have said as a reception of the film, and not just about the inaccuracy of those scenes covered by the movie, facts that have been noted in the media are relevant. There are also some omissions about Travers personality that have been noted by newspapers, as salients features of her character that have been nevertheless excluded from the film; those could also be included in the section, precisely because they don't appear in the movie. Diego (talk) 22:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the information comparing Travers' emotions during the premiere as they happened in the film and in reality. That was a major point that was missing from the section. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 22:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

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