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External Links

Hi, I deleted an external link to the Ten23 site on the basis that it is a campaigning organisation with a clear bias. Daffydavid reverted this saying that was fine and mantioning deleting homeopathy organisations. Now, I don't see any homeopathy organisations in that External Links section, maybe you unbiased editors could suggest some? Cjwilky (talk) 13:53, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. --George1935 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd argue on the basis that it is a campaigning organisation, as there are at least two other links to people/organisations that campaign against homeopathy. However I do still think that it should be removed as it isn't adding anything to the article beyond what's already said in it. Samwalton9 (talk) 14:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

A little bit of willful blindness CJ? I see - Homeopathy organizations on the Open Directory Project, which when you click on it you get a whole whack of Homeopathic Orgs.--Daffydavid (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

So why not keep a balance and do the same with the anti's rather than highlight them as with the ten23 - who as said above, doesn't add anything. Would that be because you are a supporter of that campaign? Cjwilky (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Cj, you are going to have to do better than advocating for removal because it is against your point of view. WP:NPOV has been explained over and over again on these talk pages. Why do you say it doesn't add anything? I would have to disagree with you there. I did not add any of the external links on this article so I'm kind of surprised at your attempt to taint the discussion. By clearly implying I'm not capable of a neutral point of view, "Would that be because you are a supporter of that campaign?", seems to me that you don't actually have a point. Frankly Cj, while we don't often agree, I expected better from you. --Daffydavid (talk) 05:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Seems you don't have an argument Daffy, and inventing my reasons for deletion doesn't count. My stated reason is that it doesn't add anything more than any other anti or pro site would offer - maybe you can be explicit with what it does add when compared to other sites both pro and anti, and when the whole gamut is covered in those OPD links.

As you know, you chose to revert my edit, so presumably you have a reason, so far not stated.

You are a well known ten23 tweeter and I dare say have been involved in some of their campaigns, but you can choose to deny that or continue to avoid it as you did above - so I was just putting forward that side of you as being your reason for reverting... possibly... if you were explicit in your reasoning about why you reverted then I wouldn't have to guess and try and get a reason out of you :) Cjwilky (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Cjwilky Homeopathic Detective at first I found you amusing. You really should change your user name to this. Let's begin examining your evidence, shall we? "Inventing my reasons for deletion doesn't count" - I didn't invent anything, you stated clearly your reason - " I deleted an external link to the Ten23 site on the basis that it is a campaigning organisation with a clear bias", given that views opposing the use of Homeopathy are not a reason for deletion, this only leaves the option that as an admitted practicing Homeopath you disagree with it and want it removed. Why did I revert your edit? Because your stated reason was an invalid reason for removal. You then attempted to change your argument to - "My stated reason is that it doesn't add anything more than any other anti or pro site would offer." Sorry NO, that wasn't your stated reason and as such I chose to ignore it because wasn't going to debate points that weren't actually made. But, to answer you, on investigation I find that it offers a link to a well organized campaign that is endorsed by JREF and Richard Dawkins. It seems unique in it's message as compared to the other links, but this is all irrelevant as you have still failed to give a compelling reason for it's deletion and continue to attempt character assassination. To continue on - "you chose to revert my edit, so presumably you have a reason, so far not stated", I stated it clearly, but I'll state it again, - You have no valid reason for deleting the link. And finally we come to what I presume you consider to be your coup de grâce - "You are a well known ten23 tweeter and I dare say have been involved in some of their campaigns, but you can choose to deny that or continue to avoid it as you did above - so I was just putting forward that side of you as being your reason for reverting... possibly" You really need to stop being passive aggressive. Unfortunately for you Cjwilky Homeopathic Detective your evidence is Homeopathic evidence. By that, I mean and pay attention here because I am growing tired of your assertions that I'm not being clear, there is not a single molecule of actual fact in your evidence, just like the medicine. For the record - Cj, I do not nor have I ever had a Twitter account nor have I belonged to 1023 at any time. To be clear Cj, I am tired of your childish antics. When you state a VALID reason for the proposed deletion, others may listen. Until then, adieu. --Daffydavid (talk) 01:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Let's try not to make any personal attacks or ad hominems. The guidance we should be looking at is that of the external links guidelines which state that "Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy." I do not see any real reason that the 10:23 link conforms to this. The website doesn't "provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article." (WP:ELNO) and thus I don't see any reason for it to be included; the public opposition section already mentions them and other info on the site can be read at either 10:23 Campaign or in this article elsewhere. As a disclaimer I live in Merseyside and attend many Skeptics Society talks. Though as I'm arguing for removal I don't exactly see that being used against me. Samwalton9 (talk) 10:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Samwalton9 (talk)I'm going to have to disagree on your interpretation of WP:ELNO specifically the assertion that it doesn't "provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article." If the WP article was much more detailed then I would agree, as it stands now the article is clearly lacking and does not give an accurate description of all the content available at the site itself. --Daffydavid (talk) 23:55, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Teeny Tiny edit war

John Snow and I disagree about the use of implausible/impossible as regards the plausibility of homeopathy in the "Plausibility" section of the article. In order to maintain "neutrality" John wants to use the word "implausible" rather than the more accurate "impossible" and in an edit summary, says -

"the section is entitled plausibility, and whether or not it's plausible is what it's about. Keep it civil please"

Would anybody else like to comment before I restore "impossible" to the text? John, Why do you think "implausible" is better, I would be interested to know? To me it is just less accurate, not more neutral. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly let me ask you not to restore 'impossible' to the text before a consensus for the change has been made. Can someone access the article that is sourced to and see if it says plausible or impossible? I'm having trouble logging in to Science Direct for some reason. FWIW I think implausible is better; it's fair and safe to say that the mechanism is implausible ("not seeming reasonable or probable; failing to convince.") but impossible might not be quite right ("not able to occur, exist, or be done."). As for an argument with a little more weight, sources seem to use the word implausible rather than impossible e.g. "physicians find such notions implausible", Samwalton9 (talk) 12:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

By the same token, I think that implausible should be removed until consensus for the change from impossible is reached. Can't have it both ways. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Since implausible was there first and is assumedly backed up by the source, the apparently controversial change to impossible is the one which should be discussed. Samwalton9 (talk) 13:12, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The sources used mention "implausible" not "impossible". However, the wider sources say it's both - I'll have a go at fixing ... Alexbrn 13:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I was looking at these words in the Lede. Teixeira neither says "impossible" nor "implausible" - he just says water memory theories are ... wrong. I've changed the word to "erroneous" to reflect this better. Alexbrn 13:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Roxy as to the substance - homeopathy is, within our extant science, impossible. I'd just like to let the facts speak for themselves as much as possible rather than goading the enthusiasts. If there's a way to cover both terms diplomatically Alex, please do. I'm happy to be 'hands-off' as even teen weeny edit wars are best avoided if we can. John Snow II (talk) 14:45, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I have to wonder whether it's worth mentioning both "implausible" and "impossible" in the lede: the first term looks a bit superfluous in light of the second. Or is there some subtlety here I'm missing? Alexbrn 14:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, fair question. I suppose 'implausible' indicates that homeopathy is highly unlikely to be based on any working mechanism, whereas 'impossible' suggests that there is and never can be any such mechanism, even in our wildest dreams. The former seems the crucial knowledge to impart, whereas the latter could stimulate a rather pointless debate. John Snow II (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

"highly implausible"? "profoundly implausible"? How to indicate the precise shade of meaning that says "not philosophically impossible" ... - David Gerard (talk) 15:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Brian Josephson, a Cambridge physics professor and Nobel Prize winner, has suggested a mechanism by which homeopathy may operate, so simply dismissing it as 'impossible' seems hasty. Check the link at the bottom of his homepage to see his discussion. Generally, the entire tone of the article is so vehemently condemnatory that it reads nothing like a normal encyclopedia article, or even like the typical Misplaced Pages article. Just contrast your article with the tone a traditional encyclopedia like the 'Encyclopedia Britannica' adopts when discussing homeopathy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.246.108 (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Until Josphson comes up with something better than "a suggestion" of how Homeopathy may work in a letter to the editor it's safe to keep the article as is. Next time please link to the actual page you are referencing so we can ensure that we are discussing the same page. The link wasn't at the bottom of his page but it was the only one mentioning this topic. --Daffydavid (talk) 22:17, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

This article contain so much non senses,see comment of learned person like Prof Dr Hegde(MBBS, MD, MRCP(UK), FRCP(London), FACC(Bethesda Md USA), FRCPG(Glasgow USA), FRCPE(Edn), FRCPI(Dublin), FAMS 1. Former Vice Chancellor, Manipal Academy of Higher Education, Deemed University 2. Former Pro Vice Chancellor, Manipal Academy of Higher Education, Deemed University 3. Former Dean, Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore 4. Former Principal, Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore 5. Former Director of PG studies, Professor & Head of the Dept. of Medicine, Kasturba Medical College, Mangalore 6. Former professor of cardiology, the Middlesex Hospital Medical School, University of London) spoke about the importance of alternative medicines like Ayurveda and Homeopathy. He said, “There are all kinds of tactics are used to suppress Homeopathy as a form of treatment. But it is one of the best medicines. 'It is much more scientific than modern medicine. Just because one cannot detect the chemical present in the nano particle of the pills, you call it unscientific? This is not fair.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.217.131.55 (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, according to most WP:MEDRS, homeopathy is dangerous nonsense which deters seriously ill people from seeking treatment via science-based medicine. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with User talk:184.151.246.108 the article is so biased it is just a polemic - totally inappropriate for an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by George1935 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion but an edit suggestion would be much more helpful. --Daffydavid (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok guys, sort of backing up Daffydavid's point remember talk pages are WP:NOTAFORUM if you have WP:MEDRS sources that suggest homeopathic remedies are anything other than mislabeled and expensive water please present them. Otherwise there are more appropriate venues to talk about "tactics used to suppress Homeopathy". Simonm223 (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course there are - but the editors here have chosen to edit them out. --George1935 (talk) 02:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

It is probably because those sources were not considered reliable per Misplaced Pages policy. Can you please give an example? Heptor _talk 09:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I will give many -below --George1935 (talk) 18:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Unreadable Sentence

"Homeopaths have asserted that Hippocrates, in about 400 BC, "perhaps originated homeopathy" when he prescribed a small dose of mandrake root – which in larger doses produced mania – to treat mania itself; in the 16th century the pioneer of pharmacology Paracelsus declared that small doses of "what makes a man ill also cures him." Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843) gave homeopathy its name and expanded its principles in the late 18th century. "

There's something so wrong with this sentence, I would not presume to try to fix it

75.71.200.117 (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Way too complex. I've made an attempt at correcting it.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

New Study - Is homeopathy a placebo therapy ? Maybe not.

This is a new study.

“In our paper we showed that the effects on quality of life observed in patients receiving homeopathic care in a usual care setting are small or moderate at maximum, but cannot be explained by RTM alone. Due to the uncontrolled study design they may, however, completely be due to nonspecific effects. All our analyses made a restrictive and conservative assumption, so the true treatment effects might be larger than shown.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by George1935 (talk • contribs) 04:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

What jumps out at me at first glance is that it's an observational study (which "cannot be used as reliable sources to make statements of fact about the "safety, efficacy, or effectiveness" of a practice") with no controls.--Frglz (talk) 14:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

There's so many weasel words in the abstract it would be easier nailing jello to tree than trying to find an actual conclusion in the study.--Daffydavid (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

All it says is that the observed effects "cannot be explained by alone". This isn't a finding that homoeopathy has effects over placebo. It specifically says that the effects "may, however, completely be due to nonspecific effects." Brunton (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The fourth word says it all. "We" showed = primary source. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:00, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

According to what you are saying this sentence from Shangs review - "We analysed trials of homoeopathy and conventional medicine and estimated treatment effects in trials least likely to be affected by bias." shows that their review should be regarded as a primary source? --George1935 (talk) 01:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course that is not what I said.... Shang was reanalyzing other's trial observations. Please read wp:MEDRS. LeadSongDog come howl! 02:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Read the cited study It is not a primary source : Are the effects of homeopathy attributable to a statistical artefact? A reanalysis of an observational study.--George1935 (talk) 02:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

It is a reanalysis of a single observational study. That mean it is just as much a primary source as the originally published study. If it had been published before the original analysis of the study results, it would not make the original analysis a secondary source.

And read the cited study (the bit you quoted, actually): it explicitly states that the apparent effects of homoeopathy may "completely be due to nonspecific effects". In case you don't know, "nonspecific effects" are those effects that would be seen equally in treatment and placebo groups of a controlled trial. The study actually says that homoeopathy may have no effects over placebo. Brunton (talk) 08:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

"In this paper we reanalysed data from a previously published cohort study, which evaluated the changes in health effects in patients that received treatment by a homeopath in a usual care situation. " It is a secondary source It might be completely be due to nonspecific effects -----this does not mean ONLY placebo, .Anyhow ..This is their conclusion and an encyclopedia has to report it -- If one wants to be neutral. Or one might wants to ignore the study like any study reporting positive effects on homeopathy which is a typical practice in this forum. Even if the studies are published in reputable sources. --George1935 (talk) 01:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

It's a single study, George, even if it is a second analysis of a previously published single observational study. "Second" is not the same as "secondary".

"It might be completely be due to nonspecific effects -----this does not mean ONLY placebo". Yes, it does. That is what "nonspecific effects" means - effects that are not specific to the treatment being tested, and that you would also expect to see in the placebo arm of a trial. A study that concludes that it may "completely be due to nonspecific effects" is explicitly stating that it has not established that there is a difference between homoeopathy and placebo. Brunton (talk) 08:18, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

In scholarship, a secondary source is a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere. -- Even Ernst in his blog writes that "t......his interesting re-analysis really tell us? My interpretation is as follows: the type of observational study that homeopaths are so fond of yields false-positive results. Even he finds the results -- which he criticizes----(false) positive" And you say that this ..means that it is negative. ? --George1935 (talk) 20:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

No, the conclusion that the results may be completely due to nonspecific effects means that it does not demonstrate that homoeopathy has effects over placebo. Brunton (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The paper says it is possible to be placebo or it could have a real effect. - but maybe Dr. Enrst is pro homeopathy --- and the wikipedia definition about secondary sources is ..wrong. Who knows? --George1935 (talk) 22:06, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't conclude that homoeopathy has effects over placebo. End of story. Brunton (talk) 22:23, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

It does not have to say that-----to report its findings - you know that. --George1935 (talk) 22:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

A study that doesn't establish effects over placebo doesn't alter the consensus on the efficacy of homoeopathy currently reported by the article. Brunton (talk) 22:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I thought the purpose of an encyclopedia was to inform people about the findings of different studies -not matter what they are positive negative or both.Not to pretend that studies other than negative do not really exist. --George1935 (talk) 00:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

The article cannot possibly report on every single paper, and in fact WP:MEDRS recommends the use of reviews rather than primary sources like this one. And, once again, this study doesn't come to any conclusion that alters the consensus reported by the article. It doesn't conclude that homoeopathy has effects over placebo. We don't need to cite an individual study that doesn't establish efficacy over placebo when the same thing is supported by secondary sources.

The purpose of this talk page is to discuss changes to the article. What specific changes to the article are you proposing, based on this study? Brunton (talk) 00:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

To stop reporting that the consensus is that Homeopathy is non sense because a number of secondary sources do not say that.It is misinformation. --George1935 (talk) 01:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello, could you provide the specific wording of the change with the source(s) you want to use? --McSly (talk) 01:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Until George1935 provides the sources he alludes to an edit suggestion would be rather premature. George, the consensus IS Homeopathy is nonsense. Perhaps you should look up the definition of consensus. --Daffydavid (talk) 08:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean among the editors here or according to the reliable sources wikipedia supposes to rely on to make such a statement? --George1935 (talk) 18:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

George1935, you have been invited to provide your sources and instead you continue to make snide comments. Despite what you continually allege, Misplaced Pages has rules and they are being applied to this article. If you have a large number of WP:RS sources that support your position we would all love to see them. As it stands now you have provided 1 study and in the face of countless other studies it doesn't mean much. If you were to provide many studies and they all showed the same conclusion then we would include that information in the article and the degree of coverage would be proportionate to the number and quality of the studies. Until you provide this information - I and I suspect other editors are tiring of this conversation. --Daffydavid (talk) 19:10, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Well ---the tired people can always take a break. I will provide the sources analytically. --George1935 (talk) 19:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Before you do that, it is probably worth having a look at the archives for this talk page, to make sure that you aren't just bringing up the same points and sources that have already been discussed. Brunton (talk) 09:57, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Is Homeopathy a speculative, refuted concept as the article states ----or this is one side of the story?

Here are some sources which while do NOT prove homeopathy but they say that the findings of the research are positive but inconclusive. Definitely not a ...refuted concept.

Of course almost all the papers below-even if they are published in first rate journals have been edited out- in order to make the statement "Homeopathy is a speculative, refuted concept" sound well founded.

"Homeopathy should be considered for use as an adjunct to oral rehydration for this illness. Even if they call for more research they find strong evidence for efficacy and grounds for recommendations besides the statement for the effect beyond placebo.-"

There is also evidence from randomized, controlled trials that homeopathy may be effective for the treatment of influenza, allergies, postoperative ileus, and childhood diarrhea. Evidence suggests that homeopathy is ineffective for migraine, delayed-onset muscle soreness, and influenza prevention. There is a lack of conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of homeopathy for most conditions. Homeopathy deserves an open-minded opportunity to demonstrate its value by using evidence-based principles, but it should not be substituted for proven therapies.

The meta-analysis results change sensitively to the chosen threshold defining large sample sizes. Because of the high heterogeneity between the trials, Shang's results and conclusions are less definite than had been presented.

"There is insufficient good evidence to enable robust conclusions to be made about Oscillococcinum® in the prevention or treatment of influenza and influenza-like illness. Our findings do not rule out the possibility that Oscillococcinum® could have a clinically useful treatment effect but, given the low quality of the eligible studies, the evidence is not compelling. There was no evidence of clinically important harms due to Oscillococcinum®."

The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data and "Given these limitations, Shang and colleagues' conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."--George1935 (talk) 19:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Flogging a dead horse George. Is your real name Dullman? -Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Is this the cue to start the Bullying??--George1935 (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Have you read the archive pages? All of this has been discussed many, many times. --McSly (talk) 19:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The "refuted concept" is a new addition to the article and the sources above state something else than "refuting." --George1935 (talk) 20:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, so what we have here is:

1. An analysis of three studies by the same lead author, the first of which, according to the AMA (on a webage that is no longer available, but is quoted in the archives of this talk page), "has been criticized for inconsistent/incorrect data analysis; use of different diagnostic and treatment categories but combining them in the conclusions of efficacy; and lack of chemical analysis of different treatments. The clinical significance of the results, given the self-limiting condition being studied, has been called into question". According to the authors of the three papers, "all three studies followed the same basic study design, including similar entry criteria, treatment assignment, follow-up schedule, outcome measures and data analysis". A larger study by the same team failed to find homoeopathy effective.

2. A quotation from the abstract of a narrative review. While the abstract says that "There is also evidence from randomized, controlled trials that homeopathy may be effective for the treatment of influenza, allergies, postoperative ileus, and childhood diarrhea", for postoperative ileus the paper actually says that "the evidence from controlled trials is inconclusive" (see page 397). For influenza, the paper cites The Vickers et al Cochrane review on Oscillococcinum, which was withdrawn in 2009 and has now been replaced by Mathie et al which concludes that "There is insufficient good evidence to enable robust conclusions to be made about Oscillococcinum(®) in the prevention or treatment of influenza and influenza-like illness." For allergies one of the sources used is Taylor et al, which is a review of a series of small studies by the same team, and the article notes that "a larger study using a similar protocol did not reproduce this clinical effect," the other source for this states at the end of its conclusions that its "results may be slightly biased". For childhood diarrhea the review relied on is a review of three studies by the same team, and the paper was unable to take into account the same team's larger study published in 2006 which found no effect of homoeopathy.

The "Three independent systematic reviews of placebo-controlled trials on homeopathy reported that its effects seem to be more than placebo" turn out to be rather heavily qualified, with Kleijnen (1991) stating that "At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias," and Table 2 of the Ann Intern Med paper describes its conclusion as "Available evidence is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions". Cucherat (2000) concludes "There is some evidence that homeopathic treatments are more effective than placebo; however, the strength of this evidence is low because of the low methodological quality of the trials. Studies of high methodological quality were more likely to be negative than the lower quality studies." The positive conclusion of Linde (1997) was considerably qualified by the same team's 1999 reanalysis which found that the 1997 paper "at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments". And, of course, the Ann Intern Med paper was unable to take into account later work such as the 2005 Shang analysis.

The paper itself is not as positive as the abstract suggests. Here's what it actually concluded: "Homeopathy is an alternative therapeutic system based on the “Principle of Similars” and the use of “minimum” doses. Homeopathy was a prominent component of 19th century health care and recently has undergone a revival in the United States and around the world. Despite skepticism about the plausibility of homeopathy, some randomized, placebo-controlled trials and laboratory research report unexpected effects of homeopathic medicines. However, the evidence on the effectiveness of homeopathy for specific clinical conditions is scant, is of uneven quality, and is generally poorer quality than research done in allopathic medicine. More and better research is needed, unobstructed by belief or disbelief in the system. Until homeopathy is better understood, it is important that physicians be open-minded about homeopathy’s possible value and maintain communication with patients who use it. As in all of medicine, physicians must know how to prevent patients from abandoning effective therapy for serious diseases and when to permit safe therapies even if only for their nonspecific value." There is no conclusion of efficacy there.

3. A reanalysis of the results of Shang 2005, which explicitly states in its conclusions that its results "do neither prove that homeopathic medicines are superior to placebo nor do they prove the opposite."

4. The Cochrane review on Oscillococcinum that has already been mentioned above and which found that "There is insufficient good evidence to enable robust conclusions to be made".

5. Quotations from a letter to the editor of the Lancet, making some observations specific to the methodology of the Shang et al. analysis, and criticising some statements from a Lancet editorial that the article doesn't even cite, The letter, incidentally, starts with an observation that "homoeopathy is highly implausible and that the evidence from placebo-controlled trials is not robust", and goes on to say that the authors' "1997 meta-analysis has unfortunately been misused by homoeopaths as evidence that their therapy is proven" (that follows on immediately from one of the passages you quoted).

All these have already been discussed here. There is nothing here to change the scientific consensus as reported in the article. Brunton (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

All these are irrelevant. You are answering the wrong question. We are NOT talking about the strength of the evidence. These sources you like them or not DISPUTE the statement that homeopathy is refuted. It is a different point of view besides the sceptic point of view -- and since they appear in reliable sources their conclusions have to be reported- not censored. --George1935 (talk) 00:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Read WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE. Misplaced Pages does not indiscriminately collect information. If the overwhelming consensus from the scientific community is that homeopathy is hokum, then it is against Misplaced Pages policy to include the findings of a few studies, which at best say homeopathy is not conclusively refuted. Cannolis (talk) 00:48, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

As you can see from the journals the overwhelming consensus from the scientific community is NOT that homeopathy is hokum. These above are high quality sources. There are NOT a ..few individual studies - For instance, Cochrane review the best source available ( about oscilillo) states findings do not rule out the possibility that Oscillococcinum® could have a clinically useful treatment effect' or Homeopathy should be considered for use as an adjunct to oral rehydration for this illness from another j=high quality source which is a different study than Brunton cites and he knows it. --George1935 (talk) 01:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20402610 which I believe is already cited. A review of Cochrane reviews on homeopathy. Cannolis (talk) 04:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I know it - this is one point of view - it does not mean that this is only one. If other points of view are published in reliable sources they have to be also included. --George1935 (talk) 04:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, WP:WEIGHT. Sources like the above which show reviews of reviews of Homeopathy show a scientific consensus. Cannolis (talk) 07:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The ..title of the review does not ...add extra weight- of course. What defines weight is the rate of the journal an paper or opinion published. All the above papers are published in first rate journals --George1935 (talk) 16:32, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Since you seem to be misunderstanding the Misplaced Pages policy in play here, let me quote it: "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views." I was hoping you would read this and understand why we are against inclusion of this minority of inconclusive reviews. Cannolis (talk) 18:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you are misrepresenting the policy ---Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. The above papers I cited - again- are published in first rate journals--George1935 (talk) 18:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

"in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint". Okay, since you are apparently choosing to ignore the wealth of literature and want someone else to show it to you, lets. Just looking at all Cochrane summaries available for free on their site that mention homeopathy/homeopathic in their title:

1. http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD003803/no-evidence-that-homeopathy-is-effective-in-treating-dementia (self explanatory title)

2. The review of trials found that the type of homeopathy varied between the studies, that the study designs used in the trials were varied and that no strong evidence existed that usual forms of homeopathy for asthma are effective

3. Overall the results of this review found no evidence of effectiveness for homeopathy for the global symptoms, core symptoms or related outcomes of attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder.

4. The review of two trials, involving 133 women, found there was not enough evidence to show the effect of a homoeopathy as a method of induction.

5. Results from two poorly reported clinical trials (total of 327 participants) do not show that Oscillococcinum® can prevent the onset of flu. Although the results from four other clinical trials (total of 1196 participants) suggested that Oscillococcinum® relieved flu symptoms at 48 hours, this might be due to bias in the trial methods.

6. Two studies with low risk of bias demonstrated benefit: one with 254 participants demonstrated benefits from calendula ointment in the prevention of radiotherapy-induced dermatitis, and another with 32 participants demonstrated benefits from Traumeel S (a complex homeopathic medicine) over placebo as a mouthwash for chemotherapy-induced stomatitis. These trials need replicating. Two other studies reported positive results, although the risk of bias was unclear, and four further studies reported negative results

7. inconclusive - first study - "No conclusions can be drawn from this study due to the small number of participants and the low quality of reporting in this trial." other two - "However both of the studies were carried out in the 1970s when the reporting of trials was not as comprehensive as it is now. These studies were subject to bias which makes it difficult to determine whether the benefit found in these studies are a true reflection of the effectiveness of homeopathic treatment."

In each case there is overall no evidence for efficacy. Furthermore, it is repeatedly noted that many homeopathic studies are either subject to or at risk of bias. It is overwhelmingly the case that the viewpoint in the published, reliable literature is that there is no evidence that homeopathy works. The opposing view is miniscule in prominence, and thus, per the following two sentences in WP policy, we do not include their viewpoint. To save us all from wasting more time, I would urge you look into the archives of this talk page as has been suggested by others, this has been hashed out in the past. Cannolis (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Compare to what is "minuscule" ? How you calculate the percentage which is negative? Arithmetically ? --George1935 (talk) 20:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

George, you write, with reference to a quotation about diarrhea (or possibly also one about oscillococcinum; you are not very clear) discussed above that it is "from another j=high quality source which is a different study than Brunton cites and he knows it." The studies discussed above are the ones you cited. Oh, and please try to WP:AGF. Brunton (talk) 08:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

No. The larger study you refer to was NOT about individualized homeopathy. The meta analyses I refer to they is about individualized homeopathy. --George1935 (talk) 16:32, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

It is a meta-analysis of three studies by the same lead author, performed by that author, so there are issues with replicability in addition to the issues already noted above. It concluded that future studies should have larger sizes. Has such a study been carried out, apart from the 2006 paper you are objecting to? Brunton (talk) 08:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a different study. It is about INDIVIDUALIZED homeopathy. No repeating a study does not automatically disqualify it. --George1935 (talk) 19:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Studies showing that homeopathy is placebo vs studies that state the evidence is positive but not conclusive or compelling part 1 Dementia cochrane Reviews

Lets see - Cannolis I think you just cherry picking and you change what the studies actually say- For instance you wrote http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD003803/no-evidence-that-homeopathy-is-effective-in-treating-dementia (self explanatory title)

but the study concludes---

Homeopathy is however controversial because although there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo, no one understands how it could work. The researchers did not find any good quality trials and so 'cannot say whether it is or is not effective for treating this condition'. - See more at: http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD003803/no-evidence-that-homeopathy-is-effective-in-treating-dementia#sthash.Pdye3pra.dpuf

Sorry but this study states the opposite you are saying - besides that they clearly state "although there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo" look above --this is not a study but a statement that they found no good trials to EVALUATE it . They did not say we evaluated the method and we concluded it is placebo. So this is not a negative study - besides that fact that it recognizes that there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo' Is not that funny? --George1935 (talk) 20:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

"There is some evidence that it is not just a placebo." The study did not state "there is some credible evidence that it is not just a placebo." Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

( this is not the point of the discussion but ) Credible evidence ? I did not know there is such a thing as ...non credible evidence..... Any way thats their words - Cohrane review- it shows the authors impressions from the available literature and wikipedia has to report it unless you believe that Cohrane reviews can be trusted only when they make anti homeopathy statements. --George1935 (talk) 23:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

This is getting close to quote-mining. We can't use a review that concluded that there is no good evidence for the condition it studied to imply that homoeopathy has effects over placebo. Brunton (talk) 08:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It looks like this study failed to reach any definite conclusions. Heptor _talk 13:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

My mistake, I didn't even read that one, just the title. The conclusions of the review, however, are still not exactly impressive evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy - this goes back to many homeopathic studies being of such poor quality Cannolis (talk) 15:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Well - If the authors of a Cohrane review write that 'there is some evidence that Homeopathy is not just a placebo'' plus 4 at least of the previous first rate journals which state almost the same -- how minuscule is this point of view compare with the skeptical point of view ( all is placebo ) . Proportionally seems to be really significant and this has to be reflected in the article----George1935 (talk) 18:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It already is George. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 18:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The article writes that the consensus is that Homeopathy = placebo which is false according to the highest quality sources available. The researchers have reached different conclusions which cannot be summarized in one single sided view. --George1935 (talk) 19:22, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages article mentions in the lead that "although some clinical trials produce positive results ". This statement is consistent with the Cohrane publication that you refer to (McCarney et al), which mentions that some evidence exists, but it is impossible to draw conclusions based on the available data ("In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia"). It appears that you have reached a conclusion by isolating a single sentence from the context of that report. Heptor _talk 21:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

No it is misleading- it says that "systematic reviews reveal that this is because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. " which is wrong at least ---one sided. The view of the authors of the specific review - with the others I have cited above DEPARTS from this view- they do say the overall evidence shows there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo. They do NOT say that it has been shown in general that it is all placebo. --George1935 (talk) 00:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Τhe number of quality studies that show Homeopathy is useless (or only as good as placebo) versus the quality studies that show Homeopathy's efficacy or inconclusive

George, care to quantify for us the number of quality studies that show Homeopathy is useless (or only as good as placebo) versus the quality studies that show otherwise? Your own comment above indicates that you are aware that Cochrane only said "some evidence that it is not just a placebo" which it doesn't specify what "some" means(at least not in the abstract). It then goes on to say "researchers did not find any good quality trials" which is pretty much another way of saying all they found was reports filled with "chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias." --Daffydavid (talk) 01:32, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Firstly I do not do original research to conduct my own meta analysis to arrive to conclusions like that. The editors of the article should not do either. because this is against wikipedias policy. I m just pointing out the significant number of first rate sources which hold the view that Homeopathy is not just placebo but there is some evidence that it is not just a placebo. The statement in the Cohrane review is about Homeopathy in general. Regarding what you wrote the "researchers did not find any good quality trials" which pretty much another way of saying all they found was reports filled with "chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias : of course this is not the meaning -- having no data to evaluate CANNOt really mean -------they found was reports filled with "chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. They are very clear : form the studies they were NOT able to arrive to any conclusion whether homeopathy works or not. --George1935 (talk) 02:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Providing us the numbers would not be WP:OR but would instead be helpful in determining if WP:UNDUE is being properly applied. In the abstract you provided above "There were no studies that fulfilled the criteria for inclusion and no data to present." So yes, it's really hard to say whether Homeopathy works or not when they can't find any good data. However this is one study, versus countless others. So again, if you think the article is biased, then provide the numbers so it can be determined if WP:UNDUE is being properly applied. --Daffydavid (talk) 02:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The reviews and meta analyses provide that you are asking - I pointed out several first rate journals which hold this view. I can quantify them versus the ones which state homeopathy is placebo -I showed some of them - they are at least 5-6 --George1935 (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)----

So there are only 11 studies? Well in that case feel free to list them so we can all have a go at verifying your information. --04:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The results of the review were that there is no evidence that homoeopathy is effective in treating dementia. The statement "about Homeopathy in general" is not part of the results of the review, but part of its "background" section, and is referenced to the 1997 Linde et al. review which the article already discusses. Brunton (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of opinions here with most editors basing their conclusions very quickly on what they consider "established" and "fact" and not openly discussing the particular issue. However we are possibly getting to the nub of the issue with what Brunton says.

I haven't had time yet to look at that, but if this is an academic article that includes a review of a meta analysis, that must have academic importance and is not to be dismissed off handed - nor from editors prejudice. If they are merely (mis)quoting the findings of other academics, then this would need to be evidenced, not assumed. If that is the case, then we can package it in that way.

In summary, it's not for our original research in concluding why the authors say what they do, but for us to report what they say with any definite context attached if that context is relevant. Cjwilky (talk) 07:07, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't "include a review of a meta analysis", it uses Linde 1997, in its background section, as a reference for a statement that "some studies (Linde 1997) have found evidence for efficacy of homeopathic treatment for some conditions". As far as evidence for particular conditions is concerned, Linde 1997 itself concluded that "we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition", and its authors' 1999 reanalysis of the same dataset, with particular reference to study quality, found that it was "likely that our meta-analysis at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments". Brunton (talk) 08:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

"At least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments" does NOT mean that homeopathy = placebo according to the authors. Besides that the dementia review shows the impression of the authors about the efficacy of Homeopathy in general - From all the available sources in the article ( besides the censored ones ) only Shang says it is ALL placebo - the other authors say it might positive for some conditions ( see Linde's letter who makes this statement citing his own work )- inconclusive which is quite different than the article assumption.--George1935 (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I think user:Brunton deserves credit for going through each of those "censored" publications and explaining why they present a fringe minority view, which is properly presented in the article. Heptor _talk 20:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Annals of internal medicine, Pediatrics, the Lancet and Cohrane reviews are fringe? --George1935 (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

As user:Brunton pointed out, the results from the first one you listed could not be replicated by the same authors in a later study. I did examine the remaining ones in any closer detail. Heptor _talk 21:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

IT could not be replicated ? Read carefully- What a I cited is about INDIVIDUALIZED homeopathy and cannot be compared with a different study Brutnon cites-- He already knows it.

The conclusions were " The results from these studies confirm that individualized homeopathic treatment decreases the duration of acute childhood diarrhea and suggest that larger sample sizes be used in future homeopathic research to ensure adequate statistical power. Homeopathy should be considered for use as an adjunct to oral rehydration for this illness." It is a pretty clear evidence of efficacy published in a first rate journal -- How can you regard all the above first rate journals as fringe? --George1935 (talk) 21:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

So, you found a study that is actually a statistical analysis of 3 other other studies where we are to assume the "individualized" homeopathic treatment was the same. Why then if this doctor has been able to produce a study with positive results would he produce a study that had no advantage over placebo. Hell, he had all the data at his disposal to do the same thing and voila - more positive results. Too bad it didn't work out that way -- "There was no significant difference in the likelihood of resolution of diarrheal symptoms between the treatment and placebo groups." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17034278 So now we have a study by the same lead author saying he had positive results and he had nil results (no better than placebo. We could go on like this forever, but the important thing to take away from all this is to stop cherry picking studies to support your point. You were invited above to quantify the total number of high quality studies with positive results versus the number with nil or negative results, instead you keep trying to analyze individual lines from individual studies. Is this because you know that the numbers are not in your favour? --Daffydavid (talk) 23:40, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

You don't really know what is the difference between individualized homeopathy and homeopathy which use the same remedy for everybody. Read the article you defend. This is a different method and a different meta analysis which showed efficacy. The study you refer to was NOT a attempt to replicate-- the studies Pediatrics refer to and found to be effective. --George1935 (talk) 00:37, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't read the text of the source George is citing, but I did manage to find the NICE Clinical Guidelines for Diarrhoea and Vomiting Caused by Gastroenteritis from 2009 which actually evaluates both the review George cites and the study Daffydavid and Brunton have in some detail. See the section on homeopathic care. The NICE guidelines note what George has said, that the review found positive findings, but "However, as overall the treatment groups were not similar for age, weight and height at baseline, these findings should be treated cautiously as they may overestimate the true treatment effect size." Like with the other Cochrane reviews I listed, the question of bias is raised with many homeopathic studies, and as has been pointed out, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Cannolis (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a criticism which could be included- but it does not mean because a paper is criticized should be excluded. Shang's study has been heavily criticized in reliable sources - that means that it should be removed from he sources ? And stop repeating exceptional claims require exceptional sources because ALL the studies I cited are published in exceptional sources -- Lancet, Pediatrics, Cohrane reviews unless you regard these sources as fringe? --George1935 (talk) 00:37, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

No, homoeopathy is regarded as fringe. It'll take more than a few inconclusive reviews, flawed studies, and letters to editors stating that "homoeopathy is highly implausible and that the evidence from placebo-controlled trials is not robust" to overturn the clear scientific consensus reported by the article. Brunton (talk) 08:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Apologies in advance if anyone minds me reformatting the two above comments to fit the outdenting I did. George, it is not that we consider the journals themselves fringey, but that the select papers in journals are espousing a view that is incompatible with the multidisciplinary scientific consensus that is already described in this article - namely that homeopathic remedies have no basis in modern science and have not been incontrovertibly shown to be effective. A related example would be that of Benveniste's water memory study. This was published in Nature, a model of reliability. However, the claims it made were so extraordinary that the editor of Nature published it with a letter warning readers to be wary of the results until the study was replicated, which has never been incontrovertibly done. This lack of scientific basis for homeopathic remedies and the clear consensus in the scientific community is why we re-iterate that exceptional claims require exceptional proof - papers that are not just published in well-regarded journals, but are also of extraordinary quality and bias free. Cannolis (talk) 12:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a logical fallacy - "papers that are not just published in well-regarded journals, but are also of extraordinary quality and bias free" ----and also inconsistent with wikipedia;s policy --who is the judge?---Are you evaluating the papers published in Pediatrics, for instance, yourself and decide which paper is good enough? --- Since a paper is published in first rate source its conclusions deserve reporting no matter what it says- This is the wiki policy which supposes to regulate neutral editing; the weight and rate of the source defines its reliability and prominence not the anonymous editor. ALL meta analyses used currently in article do NOT say that homeopathy = placebo besides Shang. ---Besides the censored sources -------If you have any doubts lets examine one by one. Beneviste example does not support what you are saying: There was an attempted replicated study which failed. ( Some people say it was not a replication but anyhow) . Does wikipedia exclude from the article the original Beneviste paper because of the failed replication? Of course not and the papers which I cited have NOT been attempted tp be replicated and failed ) --George1935 (talk) 19:03, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

With the exception of the one the results of which were later questioned by its own authors as having "at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments" (and six published re-analyses of which have "arrived at a less than positive conclusion"), the systematic reviews and analyses have all failed to establish efficacy. That means that they don't exclude "homeopathy = placebo" (as you put it), or that they are, to quote the 2005 Shang paper, "compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects".

George wrote, "You don't really know what is the difference between individualized homeopathy and homeopathy which use the same remedy for everybody." As fear as the results of systematic reviews are concerned, no difference whatsoever: some evidence, not conclusive because of issues with the trials, and "when the analysis was restricted to the methodologically best trials no significant effect was seen.". Brunton (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

This is false - they did not try to establish ...efficacy-- most of them were positive and inconclusive.The authors disagreed with the notion that is all placebo. Read it again. --George1935 (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Considering the totality

There is a statement in the lead that I feel is left dangling in the logical flow of the article. It says that "Homeopaths select remedies by , and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history". Is there any kind of guidelines by which the homeopath is to consider those things? Or is this task essentially left to his or her free imagination? Heptor _talk 20:20, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately that statement is referenced to another Misplaced Pages The Organon of the Healing Art article which is rather lacking in references. Here is a link to the actual book "The Organon of the Healing Art" (not sure which edition) - https://ia700509.us.archive.org/5/items/homoeopathicmedi00hahn/homoeopathicmedi00hahn.pdf I beleive the information you are looking for starts on page 277, I found it a bit lenghty but the sentence in Homeopathy article does seem to sum it up.--Daffydavid (talk) 20:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clearing that up! Heptor _talk 21:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Is it an anti homeopathy propaganda piece or an article about homeopathy?

For instance:

Continued homeopathic practice, despite the lack of compelling evidence has been criticized as unethical because it increases the suffering of patients by discouraging the use of medicine that works, with the World Health Organisation warning against using homeopathy to try to treat severe diseases such as HIV and malaria. The continued practice, despite the lack of evidence of efficacy, has led to characterizations within the scientific community of Homeopathy as nonsense, quackery, or a sham.

How many times you have to write -- it does not work - it does not work----- in one paragraph ? --George1935 (talk) 05:10, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There are quite a few 'anti' propaganda pieces on Misplaced Pages. For example, here and here. 221.133.75.209 (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

How else are we supposed to cover fringe theories with minimal following in the relevant scientific communities? Heptor _talk 14:39, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

By following the wikipedia guidelines, showing good faith and stop pretending that the exceptional sources I cited (departing from the point of view - Homeopathy= placebo= scam ) do not exist or that their number is insignificant. I m tagging the article

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met. (Learn how and when to remove this message)

- maybe other editors should express their opinion- --George1935 (talk) 20:59, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

George, unless you can give decent reasons for the placement of the pov tag, it will be swiftly removed. You ought to justify such a placement. Nothing on this talk page justifies it so far. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Reverted as querulous - read the archive to this talk page, there's a lot of it and you've raised no concern that hasn't been raised before - David Gerard (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

see! -Roxy the dog (resonate) 21:54, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

You don't like people to be informed that there is a discussion going on huh? I wonder why? --George1935 (talk) 00:34, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

What discussion? -Roxy the dog (resonate) 00:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Is not that kind of abusive ? The first time you are calling me names and now you revert me and you are saying there is no discussion? --George1935 (talk) 00:53, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

George1935, you will not win this argument through perseverance although it is becoming more and more apparent that this is your plan. Tagging an article with a WP:POV tag in the hopes of gathering more people to rally to support your cause will not help either. Misplaced Pages works by consensus not majority vote. You have repeatedly ignored requests for the information supporting your arguments (number of quality studies supporting your argument vs. number of studies against - just one example request) and instead continue to repeat yourself as if that will somehow win the argument. Please read the archived talk pages and stop wasting everybody's time. --Daffydavid (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Daffydavid, that isn't true, you know that consensus tends to mean majority on here. It's evidenced many times, go look. The majority of editors here are signed up skeptics and as such are not nuetral on this. Many people come to edit here who have pro homeopathy views and are bullied off. It's happened endlessly - one of the worst bullies was unofficially warned off from this article. You may want to say the new eds are merely confronted with wiki procedure, but meanwhile they are riled and bullied (not by all eds I must add - but eds such as Roxy here demonstrate the case quite well - sorry to have to name and shame, but sometimes a stick is needed). What is left are the same bunch of eds, mainly the psuedoskeptics, and the skeptics.

User:George1935 I urge you to stick around, don't get drawn into the confrontation that the skeptics here are trying to instigate. There are serious issues with this article, many people read just the intro here and see it as a joke. You will be told to read through the archives - as if they hold some ultimate truth. Some issues have been discussed reasonably, but many have been decided by majority bullying. There have been editors come here to lend a hand, and most have given up. I think the point George makes well here is the amount of repetition of "it doesn't work".Cjwilky (talk) 04:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

All experienced editors know that disputes such as seen here are a dime-a-dozen—there are hundreds of pages just like this where people arrive to tell the world how wonderful their favorite thing is. A good way to think about it is to imagine a reader who wants some information about a topic (say something in the news like MH370)—how would someone feel if they read that article and later discovered that it had been largely written by a couple of people who believe that a UFO was responsible for the disappearance? Most people do not want to read articles written by people who espouse FRINGE views because they would be reading essentially arbitrary text which may or may not correspond to reality. It is far better for articles to be based on reliable sources which duly summarize what is known about a topic.

If someone has a problem with the current state of this article, they should start by describing the problem in terms of policies—what text is in the article that fails WP:NPOV? why? what text is omitted that fails fails WP:NPOV? why? What is wrong with explaining that "it does not work" in unequivocal terms? How should the text be written? Johnuniq (talk) 05:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Cj, you of all people shouldn't be bringing up the subject of bullying after your attack on me. I agree with Johnuniq. His comment gives George a series of guidelines that (if he is willing to abide them) may allow us to move back to a productive discussion. I for one am not optimistic that this will happen. --Daffydavid (talk) 06:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

That's a poor attempt to deflect from the skeptic bullying daffydavid, denial rather than a search for truth appears to be a domminant trait of pseudo skeptics.

Johnuniq, you know fully that the "skeptic" eds on here will tend to look for evidence against homeopathy as that is their belief system. Take Edzard Ernst who has an a priori belief that homeopathy doesn't work and publishes work to "prove" that which makes up a large amount of the data used by skeptics to make their point. Just because other "skeptics" out there who have academic qualifications choose to publish works backing up Ernst et al, doesn't mean they are evidencing some kind of truth. But then the bulk of psuedo skeptic editors on this article don't just report this. They are pseudo, they have a mission, they are not NPOV, and contrive an article that is far from giving the reader balanced information. The result of this is an article that says homeopathy doesn't work 14 times in its lead of 12 sentences - or did you not read the lead? Cjwilky (talk) 09:54, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Cjwilky, I suggest you read WP:AGF, WP:BLP, and perhaps also WP:COI. Brunton (talk) 10:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Cj, did I miss something here or are you just living in denial? Or perhaps you need to read WP:POTKETTLE, and yes I am aware of the irony of mentioning it. --Daffydavid (talk) 11:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Brunton, thanks for your pointers, however, VERY strange you don't see WP:COI as applying to skeptic editors here. Even more strange that I don't recall you mentioning WP:AGF to the more aggressive, even abusive, skeptic editors. Why is that?

Daffydavid, no denial here, just pointing out the blatant hypocrasy which I know you see but you, and all the skeptics here, turn one of your blind eyes to. Cjwilky (talk) 13:30, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, you need to read WP:AGF. Brunton (talk) 14:32, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Isn't hypocrisy when you remove the tag saying that "there is no discussion " or when you call me names -----without any of the above ..civility guardians to say one word--isn;t hypocrisy to lecture us about ...good faith? Is abuse part of the talk page -discussion -rules ----when you disagree with someone It seems to be --George1935 (talk) 15:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Please also note WP:3RR - David Gerard (talk) 16:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Are you part of the abuse team? --George1935 (talk) 16:14, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm an admin, though obviously I'm not going to use my admin powers in a dispute I'm involved in - but anyone can report 3RR: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:George1935_reported_by_User:David_Gerard_.28Result:_.29 - David Gerard (talk) 16:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

It would be more civl and in the spirit of wikipedia to participate in the discussion instead of lying--- there is no discussion - when there is a discussion going on. Don't you think this is a more noble action beneficial to the discussion compare with your bureaucratic tricks you are trying to play? --George1935 (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

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