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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Callanecc (talk | contribs) at 22:39, 2 April 2014 (→Result of the appeal by User:Lvivske: Not sure where that bit come from). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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ZORDANLIGHTER

AcidSnow

Darkness Shines

Appeal by User:Lvivske

Appealing user

Lvivske (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed

The other participants (Galassi (talk · contribs), Bandurist (talk · contribs) and Lvivske (talk · contribs)), all of whom have had prior sanctions and/or warnings under the "Digwuren" Arbcom rules, are placed under an indefinite revert limitation on all Ukraine-related edits: not more than 1 revert per 48 hours per article, with the extra slowdown condition that before they make any content revert (obvious vandalism excepted as usual), they are required to first open a discussion on talk, provide an explanation of their intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion"

Topic bound 1RR per 48hrs with extra slowdown on Ukraine related articles. Sanctions were applied on this talk page on 30 October 2011.

Editor who imposed or found consensus to impose the sanction

Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) / Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Notification of that editor

diff

Statement by User:Lvivske

My primary area of editing is on Ukraine or Europe, be it in politics or sports, and having a topic bound sanction that limits my ability to engage in WP:CYCLE indefinitely is a major hindrance. The sanctions were applied in 2011, and really should have been limited to just the page where the edit war at the time was occurring, in order to slow down the conflict that happened that 1 day...which was over 2 years ago.

I wasn't even a prime mover in that particular conflict, and in a way got dragged in, but I wasn't an instigator. After the sanctions were applied, a user who was opposing me on the discussions stated:

User:Greyhood: I also think that user Lvivske's conduct wasn't really problematic here, at least for me, and I'd like to kindly ask the involved admins to reconsider the restrictions on him.

Also, the sanctions were predicated on having "prior sanctions and/or warnings under the Digwuren Arbcom rules". I had no prior sanctions under DIG. Also,my warning on DIG was made by Cailil.

This warning was related to a block Cailil made on me, the discussion related to which is here. Commenting users found that the admin was too involved. It was overturned.

Here are some comments by neutral users who chimed in:

User:Lothar von Richthofen: Cailil's DIGWUREN warning to Lvivske was handed out for the same "reasons" as the block. After much discussion, these "reasons" were found to be spurious at best. As a result, the block was summarily overturned. Shouldn't this mean that the warning also be rescinded?

User:Lysy: Having looked through the edits in question it seems clear that this block should not be held. Additionally, the content disagreement between the blocking admin and Liviske regading whether Mila Kunis is Ukrainian or not, not only does not warrant a block but on the contrary, should make the admin more cautious, and refrain from using his admin priviliges

User:Djsasso: I almost unblocked immediately this block was a very bad block by someone clearly involved and biased.

User:Piotrus: it would be helpful if the blocking admin would apologize to the victim (Lvivske).

User:Volunteer Marek: It should also give you two pause that folks who have had disagreements with Lvivske in the past are coming here to defend him. It's pretty clear that this was a horrible block, that it was abusive and that now just a whole bunch of excuses are being made. There's nothing uncivil about stating this fact

The admin's (Calil) conduct actually inspired another 3rd party user to file an AE report on him and cite many of the things that happened in my oreal here. The block itself in the end was overturned by Future Perfect at Sunrise. (which I guess is ironic that something overturned was later used against me)

I am thus asking for 2 things:

• a) That my sanctions be lifted - they were harsh at first but after 2 years passing, I think I've learned my lesson. It's also debatable as to how involved I was in the first place.
• b) That my warning on WP:DIG be removed from my record (or reworded) since it was based on a very questionable dispute and a block that was overturned and opposed by a slew of uninvolved users who thought I was unfairly treated. Something like this shouldn't be ammo to use against me in the future.

---Further comments---

@Callanecc: For the record, the dispute you're citing was resolved on the talk page. / Yes, I may have overstepped my bounds and lost track of my edits in that particular instance a few weeks ago. Nonetheless, I feel that I should be treated under the same 3RR rules as anyone else. I'm a very active user on talk pages, the sanctions imposed are more fitting for someone who reverts continually and/or ignores discussion while I do operate in good faith and try to engage as well as provide rationale behind my edits if disputes arise. --Львівське (говорити) 03:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@DangerousPanda: I believe my track record does show greatly positive editing considering the volume I deal with, and positive interactions with other users far outweigh the few negative relationships (seeing as users I clash with come to my defense in, I would assume this is a rarity on wiki). Maybe my methods are a necessary evil? I'm not a bad guy.--Львівське (говорити) 16:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: This request is entirely unrelated to Stephen Sharpe's 3RR complaint. He had been after me for a while. I had been meaning to write this for a long time but just had no clue where to file this. I guess his harassment was a catalyst but not the sole cause.--Львівське (говорити) 18:55, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Stephen J Sharpe: Insinuating you were going to 'cut my balls off' and proceeding to 'nail' me for sanctions on the 23rd (dismissed) and then unprovoked again on the 30th for edits made on the 10th can indeed be seen as harassment. --Львівське (говорити) 20:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Stephen J Sharpe: If you truly wanted to avoid the noiceboard you wouldn't have filed a complaint 2 weeks after the fact when I was no longer engaged on the article. It seems, rather, than you went back in the logs to 'hunt' for a sequence of edits you could report me for; that is, not an active dispute. I don't know if you have better things to do, I can only go by your actions.--Львівське (говорити) 22:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Just want to point out that Epeefleche is not a neutral party here as he was engaged in an edit war with myself and several other WP:HOCKEY folks dating back to June over a BLP issue. He's currently arguing with me on my talk page at the moment. I should also point out that his diffs indicating I'm reverting are actually links to me talking on talk pages...so...glean his motivations as you will. --Львівське (говорити) 04:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Epeefleche: Since context is key , I was accused of, and was replying to a direct quote insinuating that I held an ‘’“apparent belief that being Jewish & Ukrainian is not possible”’’. I stand by this being a fabrication, as I never stated nor insinuated such a belief. It was probably a misunderstanding, but doesn’t make my defense of it any less staunch. Epeefleche, however, seems to be persistent in his vendetta against me, hounding me, and coming up with imaginary conspiracy theories about “patterns” in my editing; cherry picking select content disputes years apart. ‘’’It reminds me of Chief Wiggum trying to catch the cat burglar’’’. I should also point out that none of this has anything to do with the appeal/enforcement of sanctions nor my editing, so it seems this user is just trying to pile on me for his own enjoyment, which fits his MO thus far.--Львівське (говорити) 23:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Amendment

I think we should look at the log & sanctions section

On the 28th (October, 2011) I made one revert after a user (Voyevoda) engaged in disruptive activity (blanking, name calling another user in edit summaries). The user Voyevoda was blocked indefinitely for his conduct.

From these edit logs, it displays I never broke 3RR or even really got into an edit war in the first place. I tried to intervene in an ongoing dispute and made a single revert on a user who was so over the line he was blocked forever, and am still paying the price today. I was also heavily engaged with other users on the talk page. I wasn't a disruptive user but was punished as one.

If the question, as posed by Sandstein, is why the sanctions are no longer necessary, I would still argue that they weren’t really necessary in the first place. You guys are obviously looking at my block log and seeing that I’ve been without issue for over a year, and if we’re ignoring the couple hour timeout I got in Feb 2013 my last issue here was in March 2012. The issue in March 2012 was filed by Volunteer Marek, a guy who is standing up for me here. I think that says something. As others have noted, my conduct has been on the up as I’ve gotten more settled in here. I think this is a very good explanation as to why the topic sanction is no longer necessary.

If I need to show positive editing and positive user interactions, just look at my record. I used the quotes in my appeal to show that even users who I’m not always in agreement with support my being a contributor. Yes I've gotten into arguments, we all do at some point, but by and large I think that my editing is an asset to the community and this topic area, not a hindrance. Sanctions like this should be in effect for repeat offenders who need to stop breaking policy without dialogue, not people who engage honestly and actively who can go year(s) without issue.--Львівське (говорити) 17:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise

Comments by others about the appeal by User:Lvivske

Statement of Alex Bakharev (talk)

I have a long history of interaction with Lvivske and quite often we were on opposing sides of numerous editorial disputes and I cannot help but notice that his behavior significantly changed to the better. He is much more civil and stricter follows the rules than three-five years ago. This is of course my own opinion, but there is a fact: most people subjected to 1RR remedy would become banned from the site in a year - usually if somebody is unable to follow general 3RR rules then they certainly could not obey 1RR - Lvivske on the other hand not only survived on 1RR remedy without being banned for more than two years, he was not even blocked for a single time since then.

Now there is a series of very important events occurring in Ukraine since 2014 Ukrainian revolution and 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine. The whole world is now looking on Ukraine, a lot of new events and a lot of editorial activities attracts many new users. Some of new users are not aware of Misplaced Pages policies, some are very opinionated, some might be trolls. Ukraine is the main topic for Lvivske and he is trying his best to keep the related articles in shape doing a lot of usable work. His ability to do this work is strongly affected by this 1RR ban: if an important article has dozens of edits per day and many are done by new or biased editors or people with poor command of English then it is easy to formally violate 1RR restriction by just doing noncontroversial edits like fixing BLP issues, removing repeated info, fixing grammar, etc. I think we should give Lvivske a chance to work without interference from the 1RR restriction. If he started to edit problematically when it is just a few minutes from any uninvolved administrator to put him on the restriction again. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Actually, I don't have much to add that Alex above hasn't said already. Same thing. I often disagree/dispute with Lvivske (I think I got him blocked once long time ago). I think that over the last three years his behavior has gotten much better. And... oh, ok, I do have a bit to add: I don't think his behavior was all that bad to begin with. Just some usual minor stuff that happens in any sufficiently contentious topic area, but I've always found that if you actually approach Lvivske in a reasonable and respectful manner then... you get a reasonable and respectful conversation (which is A LOT, both on Misplaced Pages and in this topic area). I also agree with Alex that right now we really do need knowledgeable editors about Ukraine and Lvivske has a lot to contribute. The appeal is timely and well justified. Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@User:Toddy1. Correlation is not causation. And anyway, by that logic we should slap some sanctions on anyone anywhere because "fear of sanctions will have a moderating effect on their behavior". You know, prevention, not punishment. You ready to volunteer to be first in line Toddy1? Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement of User:Toddy1

What Alex Bakharev says is all the more reason to maintain the current sanctions. The fear of sanctions has had a moderating effect on Lvivske's behaviour.--Toddy1 (talk) 07:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@User:Mishae. The reason the wise admins put in the sanctions, was to preserve the benefits of Lvivske's enthusiasm, whilst trying to contain the bad effects of his/her behaviour. If I had been the admin I would have done an indefinite topic ban on any article to do with Jews or Ukraine. What you say, suggests that maybe the admins are wiser than me.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement of User:Cailil

Regarding Callanecc's note on rewording warnings. I would have no problem with my warning being reworded if its considered helpful by the admins here.
But given that this sanction (Future Perfect's) has stood for years. And seemed to be well understood I think changing my warning is quite pointless at this point - but if it helps I will not stand in the way of the log being undiffed and reworded (but linked to this thread) - but only in the case that is considered necessary by a consensus of sysops here.
Also if I remember correctly Shell Kinney notified Lvivske of the RFAR in 2009 as well--Cailil 10:36, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Also for the record Future Perfect granted Lviviske's unblock appeal of 72 hour block after 51 hours. he did not overturn or rescind my warning. He used his discretion in what was a normal non-AE block that any sysop could unblock without prejudice. Lviviske is confusing this non-AE action (the unblock) with overturning his notification of the existence of AC/DS (something that is impossible). Yes Volunteer Marek did file an AE thread against me. It was closed with "no action" (see here)--Cailil 10:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As a constructive proposal if sysops want a reworded log at WP:DIGWUREN might I suggest:

Lviviske is notified of WP:DIGWUREN and the discretionary sanctions in place in that topic area

--Cailil 11:46, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Epeefleche For clarity Epeefleche the text you quote is from my block of Lviviske NOT the sanction he is appealing. Lviviske was not given an AE sanction by me. The sanction was applied by Future Perfect & his rationale is here--Cailil 11:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement of User:Stephen J Sharpe

Lvivske has already been operating for some time as if these sanctions do not apply. I recently cited 3RR violations and edit warring over on the noticeboard. The edit warring in question appear to be very similar in nature to the edit warring that brought about the original sanctions. Namely, Lvivske reverted multiple editors despite there being an ongoing conversation on the talk page where the emerging consensus supported the original text. Further, Lvivske has a history of attacking those who criticize him with personal attacks including repeated allegations that I am "headhunting" him, calling me "a nut", and yesterday accusing User:Solntsa90 of libeling him here. Clearly the status quo is not working - either the sanctions should be enforced or they should be removed. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 15:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As if to prove my point, Lvivske characterizes my 3RR report as harassment above instead of assuming good faith. As I understand, this is the same uncooperative attitude that brought about these sanctions in the first place. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 19:43, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: A perceived "information war" is not a good reason to hold long-term contributors to a lower standard "against the rules". If anything, it seems to me that long-term editors should be held to a higher' standard because they should be expected to have a better understanding of Misplaced Pages rules. For example, Lvivske's misinterpretation of WP:CYCLE, as User:Callanecc points out below, is all the more troubling given that he's been editing for 6 years. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 16:51, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Lvivske: You misread it. I wrote that you had "cut off my balls" referencing our conversation where you called me "a nut" and removed it as soon as you complained. Why is 'nail' me in quotes? - I never used that language. So reporting you twice is harassment? I was active on both article when you made reverts that appeared to be a breach of your sanctions. I even tried to avoid the noticeboard for the 3RR violations by requesting help from User:Alex Bakharev but he didn't respond for a week. You could've assumed good faith; you could've asked me for an explanation; instead you accused me of "headhunting" multiple times as if I don't have better things to do. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@Lvivske: The latest 3RR violations were committed on the 18th and I notified User:Alex Bakharev on the 24th so that's 6 days. I didn't report it at the time because I didn't know what 3RR was until User:My very best wishes explained it to me on the 22nd in this discussion. I waited a week without a response from User:Alex Bakharev about the 3RR reverts and only then reported it on the noticeboard. The fact that I waited 7 days should be seen by you as evidence that I'm not terribly interested in your affairs but instead you somehow saw as further evidence of headhunting. Again - you could've just asked me this on my talk page but instead you just assumed bad intentions and have prefaced every conversation involving us and a third party with the same claims of harassment. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Disclosure of personal information? You mean that Lvivske is Ukrainian and from Lviv? That's proudly stated on his user page. Why are you suggesting I'm a sockpuppet and how is this relevant to what's being discussed? Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Please don't remove your previous comments from the talk page if others have already responded to them. It's also considered bad form per WP:REDACT. You're over-analyzing what I wrote - it was a joke, perhaps in bad taste and I removed it as soon as Lvivske complained. I'm still learning Misplaced Pages etiquette so I thank you for your explanation. You and Lvivske are welcome to discuss any other concerns you have on my talk page but lets not get distracted from the issue at hand here. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 00:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Stephen J Sharpe: I know you might disagree with me but 3RR rule is sometimes being overused here to the point of it being a harassment to some users. Lets face it: As someone mentioned here that majority of users get blocked indefinitely within a year because of this rule and lets not forget, some users don't even know of the rule existence until its too late. If so, that's how we lose many good faith editors (Lvivske included).--Mishae (talk) 02:56, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Mishae: I can't agree or disagree as I've only been here 2 months. What I can say is this - I also didn't fully understand 3RR until User:My very best wishes kindly explained it to me in this discussion on March 22. My point being that I was editing for 48 days before I became aware of 3RR; Lvivske has been editing for 6 years but just a couple of weeks ago ran afoul of 3RR multiple times (while on 1RR restriction) as I reported on the noticeboard the day before he launched this appeal. For that reason, I am opposed to the sanctions being lifted. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 14:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

@Stephen J Sharpe: I think we need to give him another chance, considering that all of us are still learning the nook and crannies of this project, and we are learning every day, and it doesn't matter if we are newbies or level 4 editors. I think in some cases users still need to be reminded here that Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship, and that's why WP:IAR still exists. On a side note, in my opinion, Lvivske just have spring fever, it will pass by April, I hope. --Mishae (talk) 15:30, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment of User:My very best wishes

I think that editing restrictions to experienced editors (such as all three people sanctioned by FPS) should never be given for a period of time longer than six months because this gives unfair advantage to SPA accounts who are engaged in WP:BATTLE. This is the reason I agree with Alex and Marek that restriction must be lifted - per WP:IAR. My very best wishes (talk) 23:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

After looking at atrociously POV editing by SPA/sleepers in this subject area, I now believe my first judgement was correct. My very best wishes (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

@S.J. Sharpe. This is current version of userpage of Lvivske. No, it does NOT claim that he is a "Ukrainian" . Neither it claims he is from Lviv (he comes from Ontario) as you asserted in your comment, which I believe was completely inappropriate and an obvious violation of WP:NPA while editing in the area of discretionary sanctions you was warned about. I also did not call you "sockpuppet". I did suggest that an SP investigation might be helpful. Sorry! I agree with one of admins that such suggestions should only be made after a preliminary investigation and with diffs on appropriate (SPI) noticeboard. My very best wishes (talk) 23:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement of User:Paavo273

From my reading this appeal & the original blocking & reversal discussion, this vestigial sanction's status is analogous to fruit of the poisonous tree (lingering penalty from an overturned bad decision by an administrator the "fruit"). In real world, sanctions don't last ad infinitum, and in any case these IMO R clearly punitive, contrary to stated purpose4 sanctions. Parole & even probation expire. Kindalike judgment was overturned but judge neglected to vacate the sentence.

Lvivske appears IME to be one of few mainstays in building Ukraine-related content in the encyclopaedia, e.g., encyclopaedia, e.g., and . The few times our paths have crossed (he edits a lot more articles and creates a lot more content than I or most editors), Lvivske has been very helpful, e.g., I was working on an article when the founder of this site himself one day edited it. I mentioned this fact on the talk page and asked generally for some info. The very next day, Lvivske provided THIS. Another time I and some other editors were frustrated an article was so out of date it hardly even mentioned the reality on the ground in Ukraine. I posted this talk comment and Lvivske was the first to respond with a helpful link, which likely was a catalyst for transforming the article. I could cite many other examples where Lvivske is both a major sourced-content contributor and a help to less involved, less knowledgeable editors.

I’ve seen last few months exactly what Alex Bakharev (par2) & Volunteer Marek are talking about. Someone who knows how & cares must take time to write quality content & volume in order 4 the subject area 2B covered in something approaching encyclopaedic format and detail.

• New comment 1 April (UTC): I agree mostly w/ the now deleted remarks of User:My very best wishes rel the state of "administrating" on Misplaced Pages. Well stated! I detect wikilawyering--esp. disregard for the core purpose of Misplaced Pages here. In admin. Callanec's 1st diff, he points to Lvivske's UNcontroversial correction of obvious error ('Never heard it any differently from what Lvivske corrected it to, EXCEPT ON WIKIPEDIA. I even saw RT report it correctly.) ‘Seems more interested in sticking it to Lvivske than having a factually accurate encyclopaedia to "administrate." Hamstring your core editors in their subject areas and see what happens to the quality of your encyclopaedia … It ‘BE happening & BEEN happening. I see wikilawyering in admin. Sandstein's & DP's remarks, too. I haven't seen a WP statute of limitations for correcting neglected reversible error (in the form of this per se punitive and unfair-to-start-with action). Paavo273 (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

• Additional comment 2 April (UTC): To respond to User:Epeefleche's "analysis" of Lvivske's "deletions of RS-supported material and RSs from the bio of a Jewish Ukrainian," the facts are not on Epeefleche's side. There is an ongoing dispute about that exact issue for the BLP subject mentioned, and the reality is that Lvivske there got caught up in an emerging edit-war between another user and myself. There were and still REMAIN serious concerns of lack of actual evidence (other than hearsay assertions (fr. press & academic sources) rel the BLP article subject's alleged Jewish ethnicity especially considered in light of it being a BLP, and that virtually every found source that mentions the Jewish ethnicity does so in the context of it being used to slur the subject and wreck his presidential campaign. The issue is compounded by the article subject’s scrupulously not self-identifying as of Jewish ethnicity.

This is yet another hatchet job on Lvivske, although I am not questioning Epeefleche's GF; Epeefleche may genuinely believe what he says, lacking in substance as it is. Paavo273 (talk) 00:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement of Epeefleche

I believe that the sanctions should stay in place.

I'm a neutral editor as to the initial matter for which Lvivske was sanctioned, as I was not involved in it.

Note that when the sanction Lviske is appealing from was applied, part of the explanation for the sanction was that:

"The fact that you are now edit-warring over your apparent belief that being Jewish & Ukrainian is not possible is pointy, incorrect, and contrary to the core policies of this site (source based, neutral point of view edits). You should be in no doubt User:Lvivske that further behaviour like this will be prevented by block if necessary."

But Lviske asserts that "after 2 years passing, I think I've learned my lesson." I find that statement astounding.

The very day he posted that, he was involved in this discussion relating to Jews on Ukraine-related articles. I believe his actions alluded to there and, his statements there (especially as to his deletions of RS-supported material and RSs from the bio of a Jewish Ukrainian, evidence precisely the opposite. He did so asserting faslely, among other things, that it is wp:OR to maintain the RS-supported text. (?!) And his assertions in that discussion are amazing in that they reflect either an utter lack of understanding, or an intentional bald effort to disrupt. No lesson has been learned, from what I can see.

Also during the pendency of his request, he is on a totally unrelated (but, also Ukraine-related) article again accusing Sage of OR for ... reflecting what the RS does in fact say. He seems to believe that it is OK for him to revert editors by using the phrase "OR", when the text he is deleting is just the opposite of OR.

The above matters in which he has taken these positions remain unresolved, so his tendentious but unsupportable positions have led to deletions of appropriate material.

Similarly, these problems on Jewish/Ukrainian articles are long-standing, from even before the incident that led to his above-discussed sanctions, as can be seen in the discussion initiated of his edits by Jayjg here.

Furthermore, I believe the warning should stay in place.

He wants it removed so that it won't "be ammo to use against me in the future." But it is precisely the sort of thing that we should have as background, when seeking to understand and weigh his editing and his comments in the afore-mentioned discussion, in which he "explains" his deletions. Without that background, we might fail to understand that this is part of an ongoing practice of his.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

In a post Lvivske left just today he accused sysop Cailil of -- in Cailil's Block and Warning post to Lvivske -- having "completely fabricated" facts, and made "false statements". This may perhaps further call into question whether Lvivske has not, as he maintains he has, "learned" his "lesson." Epeefleche (talk) 20:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement of User:Mishae

I know Lvivske since Euromaidan article was written here in early 2014. I must also add that I don't know Lvivske who was here 2, 5 or 6 years ago. I however need to point out that if anyone likes Lvivske as an editor here (me and Alex included), then they should at least lessen the sanctions. Otherwise we have a chance of losing a very knowledgeable editor. Besides, not many people know where Ukraine is and what its like, so this topic which Alex, Lvivske, @Yulia Romero:, (and sometimes me), try to expand upon is very important. We also need to keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship (I am surprised that such rule wasn't included in what Misplaced Pages is not), and that's why we have WP:IAR which was ignored by admins and users who issued concern about Lvivske. Keep in mind, no one is perfect and Lvivske is as equal as everyone else, just because he violated 3RR rule doesn't mean he should be sanctioned. Now I wanna know the admins response to my comment above (I bet their talkpages aren't clean from block either, and if they are, then there are some hiding in their archives). Feel free to throw NPA rule if you please, but I tried to be civil.--Mishae (talk) 03:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by User:Lvivske

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• These (from March 2014) seem like a violation of the 1RR/48hr restriction 1, 2 & 3 plus another 1 & 2. Lvivske explanation of the reverts as WP:CYCLE in progress (which it isn't as there is only one R in BRD) shows me that they don't understand the reason the restrictions were imposed (to make them discuss rather than revert) or what they actually mean. Given this I don't see a strong argument to remove or lessen the sanctions unless either the sanctioning admin wants to remove them or there are other arguments presented. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I saw that it was resolved on the talk page but that still doesn't excuse the reverts in violation of your edit restriction. Also regarding the warning, there have been a (lot) of discussions about removing warnings from log pages and the agreement is that you can't un-notify or un-warn someone that discretionary sanctions are in effect so warnings therefore shouldn't be removed from the log page. Though they can be reworded, and I'm very open to considering that pending the logging admin's comments on the matter. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• After all this time, I would have expected to support this. However, the appellant's argument TODAY is that the original sanctions were wrong, and beats us up using random quotes to support that. This is not at all what I would have expected as a appeal. Any form of topic ban appeal, whether AE-imposed or community-imposed needs to show a) positive editing b) positive user interactions. There seems to be violations just RECENTLY of the imposed restrictions. As such, there's no possible way to vacate this as of yet. DP 12:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• As DangerousPanda says, it is not helpful to appeal a three-year old sanction with the argument that it ought not to have been imposed at that time. Rather, the appellant should tell us why the sanction is no longer necessary. As Callanecc shows above, Lvivske has recently violated the sanction and engaged in edit warring. The sanction seems therefore still to be necessary. Accordingly, I'd decline the appeal. Log entries are not to be removed.  Sandstein  16:48, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• I personally feel that 1RR/48hr doesn't help currently. That being said, if a violation as recently occurred then it's not beneficial to remove it altogether. I would suggest the sanctions be altered to the standard 1RR per 24 hours on the same articles. I do not know whether the extra slowdown clause should be modified if the sanction is indeed altered. Penwhale (nonsecure) 19:03, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

• Given that the sanction has recently been broken I don't see why we should be lessening it. Plus given that it has been shown to be necessary (as shown by Lvivske recently breaking and edit warring) I am very hesitant to lessen it without first hearing from the sanctioning admin (@Future Perfect at Sunrise:). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:35, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

76.107.171.90

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning 76.107.171.90

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

76.107.171.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

There is a recurring WP:Battleground and WP:CIVIL issue with 76.107.171.90 (talk) using vulgarity, personal attacks and inappropriate behavior against the editors they disagree with.

My first encounter with 76 was on my Talk Page, when they jumped in on a conversation I was having with another editor. 76 suddenly posted a long rant in which they warned me never to edit the Rupert Sheldrake page again unless I was "absolutely determined to martyr yourself" and then posted an insulting rhyme (apparently inspired by my interest in the Golden Age of Piracy) that starts with "Well tickle me dick-hole and shit on a stick! I know of a troll who’s one hell of a dick!"

This exchange continued despite my attempts to reason with 76 until I finally gave up and decided to stop engaging. 76 continued to make abusive remarks and thinly veiled threats after that point. I had been willing to let the matter go, but the fact that 76 is still speaking to other editors about gathering "evidence" against me indicates that 76 has an axe to grind and won't stop their harassment until I'm blocked.

• Incidents of personal attacks against me: 1, 2, 3, 4
• Examples of issues: 1 (referring to a person as a "diehard retard"), 2 (referring to Liz's as a bullying troll for questioning 76's personal attacks), 3 (WP:Battleground tactics like writing up an AE arguing for an editor to be indefinitely blocked because they were "pro-fringe") 4, 5 & 6 (canvassing/soliciting other editors to assist in combating editors 76 dislikes)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on Feb 25, 2014 by The Cap'n that his behavior was uncivil and unacceptable.
2. Warned on Feb 27, 2014 by Liz about making personal attacks.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Highlights (excerpted from Incidents above):

• When I pointed out I hadn’t made any pro-fringe comments, 76 replied "Predictably, you’re feeling desperate to convince yourself that you’re “the victim” of a coordinated effort to silence “intellectual dissents” or “free thinkers” or “non-conformists” or whatever the fuck you call yourself. Or perhaps you have chosen to cower behind WP:BLP?"
• When I stated that I had no desire for WP:BATTLEGROUND, 76 said "WP:battle suggests that one should not approach editing as a battle, but once a battle has erupted we are not required to deny that it has occurred or that there are opposing sides.", also reminding me "I’m also making it clear that people hold grudges."
• When I pointed out that threats of blocking were not appropriate, 76 replied there was no threat, but rather "I am simply telling you that you’ve come to a point where you need to decide if you really want to commit “Misplaced Pages suicide”. If you persist in your fringe-pushing behavior then the decision to ban or block you was your own. Is getting yourself blocked really going to make you feel better Askahrc? Is it something that you feel you need to do to gratify your delusions of victimization?"
• 76 first claimed they were simply trying to help me "rejoin the mainstream", saying "And so I came here to talk to you in the hope that you might stop your disruption and become a productive editor once again." When I pointed out their behavior was far from helpful, they reiterated their threats, "I’m not “offering helpful advice”. I’m telling you to stop being a fringe pusher." and "But if everyone thinks that you had it coming then you’ll receive no sympathy at all if you get yourself blocked."
• Here is an accumulation of the variety of ways that 76 brought up my blocking in our exchange (not including those mentioned above), insisting there was no threat implied: "The benefit of the doubt is for people who haven’t dispelled all doubt.", "Would you really like to get your name on Tom Butler’s list of shame?", "Seriously though, you should leave the Sheldrake page alone.", "I don’t have a reason to do so as there are others who will more than happily take you to WP:AE or WP:ANI.", " If you get yourself blocked for fringe pushing when you really were fringe pushing then it will mean nothing."

To this day I don't know what "pro-fringe, disruptive" edits I made that so upset 76, but this conduct seems unreasonable and inappropriate in any case, and violates every concept of WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:CIVIL. In addition to insulting me in a threatening and vulgar manner, I find 76's use of the word "retard" to be repugnant. That is one of the most offensive terms in the English language and is especially unacceptable when used as an ad-hominem attack. This kind of conduct is not appropriate on WP.

@76; first off, I respect the decision of the admins in that SPI case, and would point out that the conclusion of the SPI was not that I had been engaging in a false flag abuse, but rather a warning to only use this account to edit. The case did not declare me a "known liar" nor that I committed any abuses on WP.

As far as procedures go, I'm a little confused by 76 declaring that this case is invalid because the multiple warnings they got about their conduct were not in the typical template, but then considers it acceptable to try to edit my own statements in an AE case against them. In any case, I am not surprised by 76's claim that this very AE is a reason to block me, considering everything outlined above. This strange vindictiveness is the reason for this AE; I had let the whole thing go until I discovered 76 was still contacting other editors to try to get me blocked even after I'd stopped arguing with 76 in Feb, stopped editing Sheldrake and did not provoke 76 in any way. The Cap'n (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

@Barney; here is my response to your points:

• We've all made made procedural mistakes here and there. That is not an excuse to harass someone.
• I've never received a community or topic ban, for Rupert Sheldrake or anything else. An admin unofficially advised me that I would be wise to lay off Rupert Sheldrake for awhile, which I have. I contacted them before considering this AE and confirmed that my actions were appropriate. In any case, none of my issues are related to Rupert Sheldrake except for the fact that's where 76 apparently noticed me. Finally, it's ridiculous to claim an editor cannot complain about personal attacks if the personal attacks are related to a banned topic.
• I have no idea about what "revenge" I'm supposedly extracting. 76 was not the author of any actions against me (yet). 76 behaved badly, and I'm bringing that up in the proper arena.
• These condemnations of Liz strike me as odd, since the behavior Barney is castigating her for is effectively promoting WP:CIVIL, decrying POV and encouraging editors that WP is inherently fair. Truly, good job Lizzy.
• Barney agrees that 76 violated WP:CIVIL, but claims that their vulgarity, battleground mentality and personal attacks are really the fault of whoever made them mad in the first place. As for my outrageously disruptive edits that supposedly justify such behavior? I'd love to see some diffs of my disruptive, abusive behavior referenced.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:76.107.171.90&diff=602455670&oldid=597888651

Discussion concerning 76.107.171.90

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by 76.107.171.90

Askahrc is a known liar who was previously found guilty of engaging in a false flag technique to attempt to get Vzaak and Barney the barney barney banned from editing Rupert Sheldrake. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Askahrc/Archive.

Given Askahrc’s history of lying, I am asking for special permission to edit within Askahrc’s statement so as that I will be better able to refute his allegations on a point by point basis. I will do so in a different color so as to prevent confusion.

I would also like to point out that I think a WP:BOOMERANG is in order, and that the “warnings” that Askahrc has provided evidence of are not the typical template-style warnings that are normally used in these types of proceedings. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 19:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

@Liz, I am not asking permission to alter what Askahrc has actually said. I am asking for permission to interject my (differently colored) comments into his own so as that I can better refute his claims on a point by point basis. I don’t think that this is an unreasonable request to make given the fact that Askahrc is a known liar. I should not be at a disadvantage because of the severe WP:TLDR that would result from an attempt to rebut all of Askahrc’s claims in paragraph form. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 22:01, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Liz

I don't think editors should be allowed to edit another editor's comments, inserting statements that cast the remarks in a different light or reinterpret the comments and interrupt the argument the OP is making. Better to copy the relevant parts into a separate statement and make a response to them there. Liz 20:55, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:55, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

1. Askahrc (talk · contribs) has a track record of poor understanding of policy related to WP:FRINGE, and WP:IDONTHEARTHAT on WP:CONSENSUS and WP:POLICY. 76's assessment of him as being anti-Fringe, anti-Misplaced Pages and not exactly fond of the truth, is I believe born out by facts.
2. Unless I am mistaken, I also believe this is in violation of Askahrc (talk · contribs)'s community ban from editing pages related to Rupert Sheldrake, broadly construed.
3. This does appear to be an extremely WP:PETTY attempt to get some WP:BATTLEGROUND WP:REVENGE for the above, which is never a good idea.
4. Liz (talk · contribs) should be ignored completely - she is very lucky she hasn't got a topic ban as well, but her own disruption is low-level but over a long period of time, usually in the form of moaning about "censorship" (quite a lot), making predictions about how "things will be change soon for the good" (which turn out to be incorrect), and encouraging users who subsequently get topic bans themselves. Good job Lizzy.
5. 76 might have been incivil, but the trigger here is Ashrac (talk · contribs)'s disruptive behaviour. Remove the trigger, and 76 can be civil. It can be very frustrating dealing with people who demonstrate profound misunderstandings of how Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages should seek to support WP:FRINGE editors.

In conclusion, an interaction ban for both of them would be useful, as would a reminder to Askahrc (talk · contribs) of his own topic ban from Rupert Sheldrake. I would also like this topic ban to be extended to "fringe theories, broadly construed", but realise that he might not have done enough yet to warrant this in the eyes of the moderators. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:55, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning 76.107.171.90

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.