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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dave Dial (talk | contribs) at 04:29, 10 May 2014 (→Jews and Communism: this didn't take last time for some reason). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jews and Communism

• Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism
• Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (2nd nomination)

Jews and Communism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This page has its origin with Jewish Bolshevism, which discusses the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that Communism is a Jewish plot aimed at world domination. That page is expressly limited to discussion of the conspiracy theory; Jews and Communism seeks to offer evidence that the conspiracy theory is in fact true. This page offers a pastiche of statistics, anecdotes, and cherry-picked sources to show that people with Jewish ancestry were involved in various aspects of Communism, with special attention to the secret police and (in previous versions) the execution of the Russian Tsar. It frequently goes out of its way to emphasize connections between people of Jewish ancestry and finance. Parts of the article and its sources appear to derive from an article by a notorious holocaust denier .

The page is a mixture of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH in support of a WP:ATTACK on an ethnic group through a WP:FRINGE theory. To present the color of neutrality, occasional disclaimers are sprinkled to remind the reader that not all Jews supported Communism, and that Jews were sometimes persecuted by Communists; thus a WP:FRINGE theory finds its way into Misplaced Pages by acknowledging that not everyone believes the theory to be completely true. The information offered here can more effectively be presented (where warranted) in more natural contexts; if the religion of Karl Marx’s grandparents is notable, for example, it might be discussed in his biography rather than here. The tone of the page, and of its supporters on the talk page and elsewhere, is deeply disturbing and the page threatens to deeply embarrass the project.

Created on 27 February 2014 , Jews and Communism has been a magnet for controversy and edit wars. It has already been at AN/I twice , and was the subject of an 8000-word discussion on Jimbo’s talk page . A previous AfD was closed without consensus. Directly relevant precedents include the deletions of Jews and Hollywood and Jews and Money . Some (apparently) reliable sources can always be found for any conspiracy theory, but Misplaced Pages should not host pages of evidence for Antisemitic canards. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC) MarkBernstein (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per "Blow it up", "notability" and "fork". "Reasons for deletion" allows reasons not enumerated such as "Blow it up." In this case the article was written in a manner that appeared to be anti-Semitic and large portions have in fact been copied to the anti-Semitic Metapedia article on Jewish Communism. If the article could be justified, it would be best to delete it and start again.

The article fails notability because no books or articles have been written about the topic. In the few cases where the subject is mentioned in realiable sources, it usually contains the statement that no studies have been conducted on this topic. Of course there are various articles about Jews and Communism in different countries at different times, for example Jews under Communism in Stalin's Soviet Union or Communist Jews in the United States between the two world wars. But nothing links them, making the article implicit "synthesis".

The article is a "Point of view (POV) fork" of Jewish Bolshevism, also called "Jewish Communism", which is the conspiracy theory that the Jewish people are behind the Communist movement. "Jews and Communism" takes the evidence that is used in anti-Semitic literature without explicitly stating the conclusion found in conspiracy writing. It is similar to having a 9/11 article that lists all the problems in the official version, without implicitly stating that the official version is wrong. But as every polemicist knows, a selective presentation of evidence can lead readers to a conclusion. For example the website "Republican sex offenders" which accurarately listed known Republicans who were sex offenders had the implicit message that Republicans were more likely to be sex offenders than Democrats.

TFD (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Essentially this is a WP:COATRACK for every Communist Jew of note, a POV nightmare because of its underplaying of the longstanding hostility between Jews/Judaism/Israel and Communists/Communist movements/Communist nations. Putting aside the rationalizations of its defenders concerning the scope of this article, what you have here is this: high school students will be googling "Jews and Communists," coming to this article, and getting this one-sided, incomplete, foul brew of WP:SYNTHESIS that in one of its earlier stages was proudly copied over to Metapedia. I don't believe the article has changed in any material way since then, nor do I believe that it is salvageable. Sure, we can retitle and reframe it, we can do the best we can with this trash. But when you come right down to it, this is just a variation on an odoriferous theme, very much akin to Jews and Hollywood and Jews and Money , which disgraced Misplaced Pages until they too were deleted. Coretheapple (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep, this is a valid article subject. Some points; 1) it is not an WP:ATTACK page (is it a crime to be communist? is it a crime to be Jewish?) 2) Not SYNTH, nor FRINGE, the subject is covered in well covered in scholarly literature. I advice to see http://www.cjh.org/videoarchivelist/1966 for some context. 3) No-one is saying that all/most Jews were communists, nore is there an argument that links communism to Jewish religion. 4) I was the first editor to express concerns about the initial versions of the page, but I think as rewriting have come along the quality has improved. Nevertheless, the WP:BATTLEGROUND attitudes have at times blocked qualititative progress. In my opinion we had a positive process until the recent canvassing. --Soman (talk) 21:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The theory that Communism is part of a Jewish plot for world domination is both anti-Communist and anti-Semitic. TFD (talk) 23:01, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • The point here would precisely be to separate between what is the anti-Semitic discourse (currently in the Jewish Bolshevism article) on one side, and the historical documented role of Jewish participation in the communist movement on the other. If we go ahead with deletion, we'll be back to square one with all material clogging up the Jewish Bolshevism article instead. --Soman (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Soman, I'm not going to try and hound you about this, but did you actually watch those videos? I did, and they are not about "Jews and Communism". In fact, many of the speakers mention the Jewish Bolshevism conspiracy theory. Some do state that there was a section of people who had Jewish ancestry that were important in some revolutionary movements. There is absolutely no consensus that "Jews and Communism" is "well covered in scholarly literature". If anything, the opposite is stated. Also, we have an article called the Jewish left. You add that article with the Jewish Bolshevism and Eastern European Jews articles and you have 90% of the video content. Dave Dial (talk) 23:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, I watched the three video segments. Your representation/interpretation is clearly not correct. --Soman (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete. I argued to keep the previous article because I was sure that it could be repaired. Subsequent vociferous activism at the article, ownership preventing proper repair, shows my earlier position to be an impossible dream. I am sad to see this state of affairs, where blowing up the article is the best available option. Please blow it up to prevent the article owners from having this victory of POV over balance. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete, I agree with everything the nominator has said. I compared the article from the Institute for Historical Review referred to with the original version of the WP article "Jews and Communism" and there is no question that the WP article simply copied large portions of the article by holocaust denier Mark Weber of the Institute of Historical Review. You can see the comparison at the article's talk page . The article has been substantially altered since its original state but at its core it is straightforward anti-Semitic propaganda that should be removed immediately.Smeat75 (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - The arguments made above by the users for deletion are all strong and I support their assertions. The article has its roots in the Neo-Nazi forum Metapedia, with large segments copied and pasted from it, and the article still using many of the same sources. It also leans heavily on an article published by the Holocaust denial organisation and hate group the Institute for Historical Review. There is some consensus to ”fix” the article. However, relying on many of the same sources as a piece of anti-Semitic propaganda, I struggle to see how this is possible. There has also been an argument put forward that, seeing as antisemitic groups had attempted to depict Communism as part of the Jewish World Conspiracy in the past, there is due weight to have an article showing that. However, that article already exists at Jewish Bolshevism. I also want to state that I have no bias against Communism itself and own many books on the topic of Marxism. However, that does not change the fact that this potential link between the Jewish people and Communist history has been used as an excuse for violence against the Jewish people in antisemitic propaganda, something that this article, as well as the sister article on Metapedia, reinforces --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete, anti-semitic WP:COATRACK. There is no causality between Jews and Communism, therefore the whole basis of the article being founded on blatant WP:SYNTH. The article is no more than a list of communists who were racially jews, but underlines a WP:FRINGE "connection" between jews and communism. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete - Parts of the current article can and should definitely stay on WP under at least two new articles that can be created utilizing this reliable material. But the name "Jews and Communism" and the history of the current article make it too close to the anti-Semitic canard article it is related to, and hinder further positive development of issues that do have a place on Misplaced Pages. The one I am personally interested in is the one that should retake some content of the current article from the perpective of Communist ideology and theory towards the Jewish religion and towards Jewish citizens of countries were Communist parties developed from the theory and became stronger. The second main article to be created from the blowing up of the current one could take the issue from the perspective of Jewish history and different views that developed within Jewish communities towards the new ideology and the developing political parties. warshy 22:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete -This article was made because the creator was told the material he wanted to insert into the Jewish Bolshevism(of which this article is an obvious WP:POVFORK) article didn't belong in that article. So, the creator made this article. Which was copied almost word-for-word and source-by-source into the White Nationalist encyclopedia, Metapedia.

Their article is named "Jewish Bolshevism". We already have an article called Jewish Bolshevism. It's about the Antisemitic canard blaming Jews for Bolshevism and the rise of Stalinism. We have those two articles too. We have dozens of articles concerning Communism.

History of communism History of Communist Romania, History of Communist Poland, History of Communist Bulgaria, History of Communist Albania, History of Communist Czechoslovakia, as well as articles about the history of Marxism, the Communist state, Revolutionary socialism, Trotskyism, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks and History of American Trotskyism

As well as dozens concerning Jewish people.

Eastern European Jews article is pretty vast. We also have articles about Jews in almost any nation. Jews of Poland, Jews of Germany, Jews of Spain, History of the Jews in Russia, Jews of Babylonia, Jews of Hungary, Jews of France, Jews of Italy, Jews of Greece, Cuban Jews, Jews of USA and more.

To connect all of these is synthesis and original research. As well as an attack page. No, not because Communism is 'evil'(although some do believe it is), but because attempting to correlate "Jews" with bringing about Bolshevism, and in turn placing the blame on them for both the rise of Nazism and Stalinism is. In other words, according to both before WWII and after WWII, attempts have been made to link "Jews" with Communism in order to convince people that it was not only their own fault that the Holocaust happened, but that they deserved it Ipso facto because of Stalinsm. So delete because it's synthesis, almost all of which is covered in other articles. To combine them into the "Jews and Communism" article is an attempt to legitimize the conspiracy theory. We have another article discussing the Jewish left, for those serious about wanting to contribute to an article at least partially about this topic. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - basically I agree that (sorry to be lazy and copypaste TFD's words but it's put plainly and clearly) 'The article fails notability because no books or articles have been written about the topic. Of course there are various articles about Jews and Communism in different countries at different times, for example Jews under Communism in Stalin's Soviet Union or Communist Jews in the United States between the two world wars. But nothing links them, making the article implicit "synthesis".' Sayerslle (talk) 23:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• EmphaticDelete as pure WP:SYNTH. It is a very clever antisemitic attack article.--Galassi (talk) 23:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete per TFD. The article seems to consist largely of synthesis, where it isn't directly derived from antisemitic sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete, primarily for reasons of WP:AND. That is a perfectly sensible policy that clearly should apply here. I voted the first time to delete and none of the changes made to the page warrant changing my vote. I disagreed with the closing editor's decision to declare it no consensus and voted to overturn his decision on review, but the result again was no consensus. The discussion, in my opinion, has shown that at least two thirds or more of the editors commenting on this article believe it should be deleted. Obviously a unanimous vote will never happen. I agree with much of the comments above, particularly in regards to issues with POV Fork, OR, and copyvio. I have yet to see any kind of adequate response to WP:AND. As the policy very specifically notes, there is no article about "Islam and Terrorism." I fail to see why the same logic should apply, even more strongly, to this article. Quite frankly this episode suggests to me that there are issues with the core policies of the project that I hope are addressed. mikeman67 (talk) 01:23, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per TFD who's summed it up nicely!. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete If there is scholarly evidence that the religion/ethnicity of certain people was a major influence on communism, add it to Communism. If there is scholarly evidence that communism was a major influence on Jewish people, add it to Jews. Commentary on whether communism is part of a Jewish plot to control the world belong at some other website, or perhaps Jewish Bolshevism. The first section of the article starts 'The German philosopher Karl Marx, often regarded as the "father of Communism", was of Jewish ancestry on both sides'—so where is Germans and Communism, and what about Philosophers and Communism? Johnuniq (talk) 01:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
• Delete Pure SYNTH. There may be sources that link Jews and Communism in the Soviet Union, but there are no sources that link Jews and Communism in general (in China for example). USchick (talk) 01:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep

As I said earlier. The article, just like the Jews in Hollywood article, is basically a factual description of the relationship, and its causes. There ,may be no specific causality between Judaism and Communism, but there is very much a causality between social and economic oppression, and participation in radical movements. The most oppressed will seek the most radical solution. At the beginning of the 20th century Communism was a viable option among revolutionary movements, though it was explicit from the start on that it was not compatible with any form of religious expression, or of national individuality.

To consider Jews and Communism only as an anti-Semitic canard is to condemn as a anti-semitic canard every possible expression or behavior of any Jews, for everything possible has been used against them. People who hate will seize on anything, and will associate the hated group with anything at all that is also the subject of hatred and prejudice. They will even use an association with something positive as an instrument of prejudice; "Jews and Music" will be used to imply that styles of entertainment some people may dislike are specifically Jewish, or alternatively, that the Jews are trying to subvert the profession. To refuse to discuss a topic because bigots have perverted it is dishonest, the triumph of inoffensiveness over honesty (and The encyclopedic approach is to consider the association between the many ethnic groups and the many aspects of society in an objective and historically sound perspective. There is no reason why anyone--in particular any Jew --should find anything shameful about the association of Jews and Communism in Russia, except the inability to foresee the future. Elsewhere, it becomes a question of the degree to which an individual felt economic oppression os the primary burden.

There is no SYNTHESIS in writing a general article. We need specific articles also, but there are commonalities across time and place. The determination of a people to redress its wrongs is a valid subject.

Most of my ancestors on one side of my family were Jews and Bolsheviks--at least up until a certain point in time, which varied. The ones in Europe were persecuted primarily as Jews; those in America primarily as Communists. DGG ( talk ) 01:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

"Das Judenthum in der Musik"' (German: "Jewishness in Music", but normally translated Judaism in Music; spelled after its first publications, according to modern German spelling practice, as ‘Judentum’), is an essay by Richard Wagner which attacks Jews in general and the composers Giacomo Meyerbeer and Felix Mendelssohn in particular. It was published under a pseudonym in the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik (NZM) of Leipzig in September 1850 and was reissued in a greatly expanded version under Wagner’s name in 1869. It is regarded by some as an important landmark in the history of German anti-semitism." --Misplaced Pages MarkBernstein (talk) 02:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Mostly per TFD but also mikeman67.. it says something about this article's abhorrent quality that it met the qualifications of Metapedia. Flipandflopped (Discuss, Contribs) 02:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:TNT and also due to excessive WP:SYNTH. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 02:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Keep for now. Not commenting on the merits of the article, but I think it is an abuse of the system to renominate an article for deletion so soon after a well-attended deletion discussion and well-attended deletion review. Zero 03:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• You mean the same AfD that over two-thirds of editors stated to delete the article as a WP:POVFORK and the closer instituted his own WP:SUPERVOTE and stated - "Oy vey" there was no consensus the article was a WP:POVFORK? Dave Dial (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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