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Etymology of vape

This article needs to clarify for the etymology of vape. Several sources call the use of ecigs as smoking them, while the industry itself refers to the process as vaping (a word not found in any dictionary as far as I can tell). Where is consensus that we should not be using the form smoking ecigs, and why is it not even mentioned if there is a debate over naming use. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 12:18, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/13/smoke-from-e-cigs-still-poses-some-second-hand-risk/ - Refering to smoke from e-cigs
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/teens-are-using-e-cigs-to-quit-smoking-and-failing-miserably - Refers to e-smoking, which as a term is mentionable. WP:RS for the term.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/22/manchester-city-ban-supporter-for-smoking-electronic-cigarette-after-thinking-its-real-3555276/ - Refers to smoking e-cigs
http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/ecigarettes-under-fire - Craig Youngblood (industry professional) calls them: electronic, alternative smoking devices
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ed185b54-c5e0-11e3-a7d4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zQeQdEWo Ruyan CEO calls the use guilt-free smoking

Using the term smoking e-cigs is not unheard of, and should be represented in the article. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 12:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

So we should because of journalists not familiar with the topic area use incorrect terms? Smoke is incorrect, while Vapor is correct - by the definition of the terms. Strangely all of your articles specify that they are not referring to smoking, but to (scare-quote)"smoking", emissions, vaping or specify that (WebMD)"E-cigarettes don't make real smoke". The headlines of articles are generally not reliable, since they are written after editorial review for promoting the article.

I'm not against an etymology section, or a section explaining the difference between smoke and vapor - but using an incorrect term, because some media is unfamiliar with the topic they write about, is silly. --Kim D. Petersen 16:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been through this already with CFCF. The argument he/she used then was that we should say "smoking" because "vaping" was just industry propaganda. I disagree. YOu cannot smoke something that produces no smoke and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.--FergusM1970 18:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

But things on which you disagree with can still be of value for a reader. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 07:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Trouble here is that you appear to be starting from a faulty position. The mentions of "smoking" e-cigs only exists because journalists haven't (or hadn't) a clue about the topic they were writing about. What comes out of an e-cigarette is vapor, not smoke. The liquid is evaporated, not combusted. etc. Thus smoke is simply wrong.

With regards to your mention of "industry"... i don't really know what to do with that, since i can't see that there is an "industry" creating such terms - i do see that there is quite a large subculture thing going, where such terms come from.

Finally i can't really see that we can make an etymology section without resorting to WP:OR, at this point. --Kim D. Petersen 11:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I see only one remotely usable secondary etymology source here. In turn, it cites (and questions) a scarce magazine source at New Society, Volumes 65-66 (1983) New Society Ltd. with neither issue nor page number given. I will inqure at wp:RX to see if anyone can locate that primary source. That Wordspy entry may, however, be indirectly derived from this wiktionary citation by wikt:user:Equinox. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so the early article cited was Rob Stepney "Why Do People Smoke", New Society at Google Books, Volume 65, Number 1080 (28 July 1983) New Society Ltd. pp. 126-128. That piece is snippet view, but it clearly backs the text quoted by Wordspy (and by Wiktionary). LeadSongDog come howl! 19:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

If we are going to call it smoking just because some journalists calls it smoking, why not call it what it actually is aswell is since tons of journalist calls it vaping as you can see here, here, here, here, here and here.... Oh... and here, here and here as well.TheNorlo (talk) 00:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Inhaling "air" ist breathing, inhaling "tobaccosmoke" is smoking, inhaling an asthma aerosol is "using an asthma inhaler"! So: Inhaling a non-combustible vaporized liquid with nicotine is not "breathing" or "smoking" - It is "vaping"! The Etymology "vaping" is established since 1980 (have a look)--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Systematic Review not accepted?

So... you're not accepting this systematic review?Why? It's a published, peer-reviewed secondary source! --Merlin 1971 (talk) 16:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

It appears that their are a couple of issues. One was it was a copyright violation. We must paraphrase.

The other is that it is not pubmed indexed. Will need to look at the whole article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

My university carries it. Should be usable with appropriate wording. It does say "Riccardo Polosa is a Professor of Medicine and is supported by the University of Catania, Italy. He has received lecture fees and research funding from GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer, manufacturers of stop smoking medications. He has also served as a consultant for Pfizer and Arbi Group Srl (Milano, Italy), the distributor of Categoria™ e-Cigarettes. His research on electronic cigarettes is currently supported by LIAF (Lega Italiana AntiFumo)." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I removed it due to lack of MEDLINE indexing. We have plenty of secondary sources, no need to use sub-optimal ones. Yobol (talk) 00:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure... I can already see what happens here... This is WP, right? Not a political webpage, is'nt it?--Merlin 1971 (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

There's no requirement for sources to be either PubMed or MEDLINE indexed.--FergusM1970 00:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

FDA

Is the FDA website a reliable source? See diff. QuackGuru (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

This would be a position statement from a internationally recognised expert body. So yes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

If I suspected that might be the case then I would not have removed it but clearly the "Adverse Event Reports for e-Cigarettes" section of the FDA page is not a position statement. The section is merely a relaying of information that happens to consist of a summarisation of anecdotal reports. The FDA themselves state that "Whether e-cigarettes caused these reported adverse events is unknown. Some of the adverse events could be related to a pre-existing medical condition or to other causes that were not reported to FDA."

There are various anecdotal yet compelling reports out there of how e-cigarettes have had a positive impact on a person's health, yet obviously we should not introduce those due to their very nature. It is therefore impossible to balance these unconfirmed side-effects with any opposing views due to the fact that firm evidence of either simply does not exist. Whilst I am not saying that absence of an opposing valid source invalidates the original source I do think that we have to be careful to maintain a NPOV. In this case I find it hard to justify alarming, unproven medical reports that would likely remain unchallenged.Levelledout (talk) 00:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

In general, the FDA is a reliable source. However, that particular piece of information is a voluntary reporting of possible adverse events (possible form of selection bias) and the FDA has not confirmed any of those events were actually caused by e-cigarettes. I'm not sure it deserves to be included given the tentative nature of the data; if it is included, we have to be sure to note that it is unknown if these events are actually caused by the e-cigarettes (which would argue against even putting it in in the first place). Yobol (talk) 00:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It is kind of hard to work out what the point of it is. Right now the article basically says "E-cigs cause all sorts of diseases. Except we're just saying that; there's no evidence."--FergusM1970 00:48, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"The FDA has received voluntary reports of adverse events involving e-cigarettes which include hospitalization for illnesses such as pneumonia, congestive heart failure, disorientation, seizure, hypotension, and other health problems but it is unknown whether e-cigarettes caused these adverse events."

As long we are using a reliable source and the text is neutrally written I think it is okay. QuackGuru (talk) 17:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

New review in Circulation

Not sure if anyone has seen this review yet, but it looks pretty good. Ian Furst (talk) 03:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it is not pretty good. It is biased and according to Prof. Dr. M. Siegel: "this article is little more than a hatchet job on e-cigarettes." and:

"To illustrate this, let's consider the five studies which the authors cite as providing evidence that electronic cigarettes inhibit smoking cessation. Presumably, these five studies examined the rate of quitting among smokers who used electronic cigarettes in an attempt to quit smoking. Question: Of these five studies, how many examined the rate of smoking cessation among smokers who were trying to quit using electronic cigarettes?"

Answer: "The rest of the story is that none of these studies examined quit rates among smokers who were trying to quit using e-cigarettes. None of these studies were in fact designed to examine the role of e-cigarettes in smoking cessation in the first place." Source: The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary--Merlin 1971 (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Circulation is a well respected journal. It is a recent review article. Good find. We can definately use this as a source. Now the blog we can definately not use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you read the "review" Doc James? I find the paper questionable, even without looking at Dr. Siegel's blog... First thing that strikes me is: It reads more like policy advice/advocacy than a review, Second thing is how far the "narative" in the paper is from the other reviews that we've examined, Third thing is that the references in the paper seems both incestrous and picked to toe a line (cherry-picking may be too far, but not that far), Fourth the summary of some of the papers do not match well with the description in the papers, and finally the primary authors affiliation is a bit problematic. Now after reading Siegel's commentary, i'm even more critical.

Yep, it is a WP:MEDRS... but frankly i wouldn't use it for the problems mentioned above, and if using it, then i would say that the weight given to the paper must be small considering these observations. Not everything in RS or MEDRS is good. --Kim D. Petersen 21:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Just glanced at it. Read a lot of circulation. It is the journal of the AHA and is very well respected. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:00, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Even good journals sometimes print dodgy papers... i'm not questioning the journal at all. --Kim D. Petersen 23:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Some of the language in the "review" doesn't belong in this article. For example: "Although research is limited, it is transparent that e-cigarette emissions are not simply "harmless water vapor," as is commonly claimed." Research is actually extensive - Glantz just won't acknowledge it unless it matches his views - and the way the sentence is phrased practically accuses e-cig manufacturers and harm reduction advocates of lying.--FergusM1970 00:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

There are some fairly opinionated assertions in there such as "E-cigarette advertising on television and radio is mass marketing of an addictive nicotine product". At the same time this is somewhat odd because under the disclosures section it states that "Dr Benowitz is a consultant to several pharmaceutical companies that market smoking cessation medications".

I also wonder whether a cardiovascular journal is an appropriate place for this review. Very little of the review appears to focus on cardiovascular issues. As an example would the peer reviewers have expert knowledge and experience of propylene glycol breaking down due to heat and forming toxic substances such as acrolein? Levelledout (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Another Cessation Study That Has Been Added

See . The New York Times has been used as the source which obviously does not really conform with WP:MEDRS, the article is I believe based on this press release in the peer-reviewed Addiction journal: ] The study is not actually published until tomorrow (midnight tonight UK time, which is a couple of hours away). It is not a systematic review but it has been peer-reviewed and renowned UK organisations like University College London and Cancer Research are involved. It also seemingly directly addresses the issue of e-cigarettes and smoking cessation in an area where data in general is lacking at present. Although 6000 people took part, I'm not sure of the quality of the methodology of the study, maybe others can comment here and more will obviously become apparent when its published. The question is should we wait for this to be reviewed or should we keep it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levelledout (talk • contribs) 21:17, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Consensus so far has been not to use non-WP:MEDRS sources (and non-reviews) for information such as this. NYT is certainly not a valid source for this. --Kim D. Petersen 21:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean it is not reliable? This is not an article about Medicine, and the article is not attempting to diagnose or treat a disease. Cwobeel (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The survey and the results are medical data - NYT is not a reliable source for interpreting science. It is a reliable source for many other things though. --Kim D. Petersen 22:12, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes we need high quality secondary sources and position statements of major organizations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

That is a very narrow interpretation of policies, and I respectfully disagree with your assessments. Cwobeel (talk) 00:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

There certainly are some narrow interpretations going on here, such as the utterly baseless claim that to be WP:MEDRS a source has to be PubMed-indexed, but in this case it's reasonable to ask for a better source. Like this one.--FergusM1970 00:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be better to follow WP:CON and wait until a consensus has developed on this matter rather than descend into a mini-edit war after almost every post. Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The NYT article, and the primary journal article are not WP:MEDRS compliant. When this study is reviewed and placed in context by a MEDRS compliant secondary source like a review article, we can include said information. Yobol (talk) 01:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

My previous post was not a complaint that it had been removed, it was a complaint that the information had been reverted back and forth 4 times in the last 24 hours.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm172906.htm

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