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What is wrong with the lead section of Creationism?

<<Actually, I wasn't describing my beliefs, I was trying to describe creationist beliefs.>>

In my opinion, the fundamental logical flaw in this approach is basing your investigation on "belief." Hypothesis: To start an encyclopedia article with "Xism is the belief that . . . " will always fail to produce a good encyclopedia page. You might start paging through your virtual Encyclopaedia Britannica for a counter-example to the above hypothesis--looking for a "good" encyclopedia page that begins with what I am asserting is an irredeemably flawed first sentence "Xism is the belief that . . . ." You may find what you think is a counter-example encyclopedia page, and of course I will contend that that encyclopedia page is not "good." :) It is like beginning an encyclopedia page with the first sentence: "Ten is the odd number that . . . ."

The first sentence of a "good" encyclopedia page on "creationism" should describe what "creationism" is--not what "creationism" believes. For example, you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Communism is a system of political and economic organization in which . . ." or you might begin a "good" encyclopedia page with "Creationism is the theory that . . . ."

I leave it for the reader to derive the general logical constraint that produces a "bad" encyclopedia page from the first sentence of the form "Xism is the belief that . . . ." ---Rednblu 15:29, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But is there really anything wrong with saying that creationism is a belief if that's what it is? "Communism is a system..." is appropriate because it is a system, not a belief. You can be a believer in communism, or a believer in creation, but not a believer in creationism, because creationism is the belief in creation.

I want to have a good look at this article, but have not done so yet because I wanted to wade through the nine pages of talk before I change too much. But as well as this article on creationism, there is also an article on Creation and another on Young Earth creationism, as well as other origins views. What should go where, and whether we need all these, are also issues that should be addressed, but presumably this article is about the belief rather than the origins model of creation, or what is often known as Creation Science. Perhaps this article should say little more than "Creationism is the belief in Biblical Creation" and put the rest under the latter (or similar) article?

Philip J. Rayment 16:37, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<But is there really anything wrong with saying that creationism is a belief if that's what it is?>>

Let me illustrate the problem with the current first sentence to the Creationism page.

Creationism is the belief that the universe and all life were created by the deliberate act of God as described in the Bible.

If everyone agreed to that sentence, then there would be no problem with that first sentence. The difficulty is that, to make that sentence correct, over half of the people on this earth would have to change the words that follow "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." We could take a poll to pin down the statistics that I imply in "over half of the people."

As it is now, most people who explain their existence as divine creation have beliefs that violate the phrase "as described in the Bible"--because most people who explain their existence as divine creation believe that some form of speciation fomed H. sapiens and that is not "as described in the Bible," but rather "as described in" Darwin's, Origin of Species. Again, we could take lots of polls to pin down the statistics I imply by phrases like "most people who. . . ."

I don't really think you mean that Creationism is just a belief. It is also a political movement, it is a controversy, it is the basis of a way of life, it is a basis for moral systems, etc.

And the professional encyclopedias recognize the entirety of what "creationism" is in the lead sentence. Consult any professional encyclopedia. Creationism is not just a belief, it is a . . . . ---Rednblu 18:36, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree that "as described in the bible" is much too narrow, and could be changed to, perhaps, "as described in some creation myth" or some such (I would like to hear your suggestion).

But I am unclear as to your point here, is the the word "belief" that you're objecting to, or the phrase "as described in the bible"? As for whether creationism is only belief or a belief and other stuff too, what difference does that make? The sentence doesn't say "just a belief" it just says "belief", and all that other stuff (morality, etc) can't really be mentioned in a single sentence, and doesn't really need to be, since those things are often associated with beliefs, and therefore can probably be assumed by the reader. So what exactly is it that you are proposing about that word "belief"?-Lethe | Talk

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What difference does that make? you ask. I would say it is only a matter of accuracy--as long the words model somewhat closely what is going on in reality. At first, "belief" seemed to me to be the right word. To me, "creationism" is a belief that some people have. But then I saw that so many people disagreed with what followed the phrase "Creationism is the belief that . . . ." So then it seemed to me that it would be nearly impossible to make an accurate statement that would model reality, beginning with "Creationism is the belief that . . . ."; it doesn't matter whether you put the Bible into that definition or not, it still will not model reality. I assume that an encyclopedia would like to model the "reality" of what people have thought, said, and done.

So then I explored how the hardcopy encyclopedias have introduced the whole host of "beliefs"--the -isms. I found in the hardcopy encyclopedias the following:

• Theism is "the view that . . . "
• Atheism is "the critique and denial of . . . "
• Agnosticism is "the doctrine that . . . "
• Fundamentalism is "the conservative movement arising out of the . . ."
• Fatalism is "the view that . . . "

The textual structure here is that view, critique, doctrine, and movement are all abstractions that you can define outside of the believer's head. They are defined before "belief"; belief is what someone might have in the view, critique, doctrine, or movement. I found it interesting that Britannica starts the "creationism" entry with

• Creationism is "the theory that . . . "

With that kind of beginning, the article can lay out the variations in the "theory." The "theory" can have a political influence. The "theory" can be criticized as having more causes than it needs, or the "theory" can be proven wrong. And of course, some people have a belief in the theory and some people don't. It is merely a question of accuracy of the encyclopedia article in modeling reality. ---Rednblu 23:27, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Please don't expect too much support from the word "theory" here. The topic of creationism touches upon the topic of biological science; within science, the term "theory" has a rather specific meaning. It does not mean "view" or "proposal". In a scientific context, the word means that a system of knowledge has substantial evidential basis; thus, to call creationism a theory is, here, to favor it as science. This is, of course, the POV of creation scientists, and so would lean the article toward that viewpoint. —FOo 02:46, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Misplaced Pages, the evolutionist censors will not allow the truth be told. But if you look outside Misplaced Pages at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some lame-brain religious zealot devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. ---Rednblu 05:18, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, sure, if you are trying to start a fight (as your use of expressions like "evolutionist censors" and "lame-brain religious zealots" suggests) then it's a great choice of words. The Usenet newsgroup talk.origins is a much more entertaining place to have a fight about creationism than Misplaced Pages is, though. —FOo 06:40, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Let me rephrase if you will.

I understand your political turf explanation quite well. It is nothing more sophisticated than our inherited chimpanzee politics. Reality be damned; what counts is holding the political turf. I'm not even objecting. I'm just pointing out that in fact, "Creationism is a theory . . . ." I understand that currently in Misplaced Pages, many will not support the use of the word theory that differs from the way that the word theory is used in biological science. But if you look outside Misplaced Pages at reality, there are many kinds of theory other than scientific theory; there is wage theory and auteur theory and location theory and tricellular theory and creationist theory none of which even claim to be a science. At least all of those non-scientific theories are "explanations" that serve quite adequately for what science cannot even begin to handle. Just because some creationist strategist devised the brilliant chimpanzee politics trick of faking up creationism to be a science does not justify ignoring the reality of what "creationism" is. ---Rednblu 06:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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People are right to object. While creationism is a theory, in practice it's paired up with evolution that to call it that is confusing. Besides, other similar things aren't usually described as theories anyways (e.g. most are described as stories rather than historical events even though people believe in them). As such, some other synonym is preferrable. I don't know why you object to the term belief, which does a good job summing up other positions like theism, atheism, etc, but there are plenty of other words that could be used. Idea, view, and position come to mind.

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<<I don't know why you object to the term 'belief'>>

I object to "Creationism is a belief that ..." in the same sense that I would object to "A mammal is four legs that ...." Even allowing for some whales having the vestigial hind legs, "four legs" does not capture the functional essence of "mammal" very well. The flaw in "Creationism is a belief that ..." is that it does not model reality very well in representing what "creationism" is. Let me state the following Hypothesis: The political drawing power of "creationism" is that creationism looks to uneducated people like a theory that explains how people got here on this earth. This is the standard anthropological interpretation of why people gravitate to creationism. ---Rednblu 07:56, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Fair enough. Any objections to Creationism is the position that...?

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No. In common parlance, position would be a little vague--as if settling the issue would be a matter settled by vote. But position would settle the algebraic inconsistency of using belief to stand for two totally different thinge 1) the "story" believed and 2) the act of belief. The belief page has it right: "Belief is assent to a proposition." ---Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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On the "belief" issue, I was assuming that an "ism" is, essentially, a belief (or a set of beliefs, perhaps). However, Mirriam-Webster Onlinedoesn't actually give that definition, instead defining "ism" as a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory. I still don't really have a problem with the word "belief", but I am happy for something else to be substituted. I would probably go for "view", which incidentally was used twice in Rednblu' list of examples, but I'm open to "doctrine" or other possibilities.

On the issue of "as described in the Bible", I think I see where you are coming from, Rednblu, having now read most of the nine pages of talk (whew!). If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree. Sure, the term could be used to describe non-biblical views of creation, but is that the way that it is normally used? As mentioned by others in the earlier discussion, most dictionaries do refer to the Bible or Genesis in defining the word.

As for the comparison with "A mammal is four legs that...", again I think I see your point, that "belief" (or any of the other terms that have been suggested?) don't explain creationism well enough. I'm a bit ambivalent on this at the moment, but I'm not convinced that the analogy is correct. Perhaps you could propose some alternative wording so that we can better see where you want this to go.

Actually, I don't really like the third sentence of the introduction ("However, not all..."), as it appears awkward and rather pointless.
Philip J. Rayment 12:31, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting/claiming that the term creationism is applicable to anybody who believes in a divine creator (or something like that), regardless of whether or not they follow/accept the biblical narrative. On this I would disagree.>>

I do believe that the empirical evidence supports the following Hypothesis: Out of all the people of this earth who believe that divine creation put them here, only a very small fraction believe that the divine creation followed the biblical narrative. I have no personal preference that all of those people would 1) follow or 2) not follow the biblical narrative. Isn't this just a question of fact--comparing statistically what 1) people say about the divine creation that put them here versus the 2) biblical narrative?

Let's not worry for now about whether "belief" is appropriate. The resolution of that issue, in my opinion, is a huge political problem within the whole camp of evolutionists, of which I am one. That is, in my opinion, fixing the "belief" problem in the Creationism page is a long-term process of getting the evolutionists to deal with reality. If you think "belief" is good-enough, let's stay with "belief" for now. ---Rednblu 17:19, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Just to comment on belief a bit more, a belief doesn't have to be an airy-fairy thing that has no connection to reality. We believe, for example, that if we sit on a chair, it will hold our weight, based on the experience that we have with sitting on chairs previously.

As for what should come under the heading of "creationism", the following articles could be instructive, although personally I wouldn't take everything this author says at face value: Philip J. Rayment 15:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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We've discussed the topic of creationism: theory/belief/hypothesis/etc.? at length previously here: Talk:Creationism/Is_Creationism_a_theory.

A hypothesis or conjecture requires the following to qualify as a theory:

Creationism clearly does not qualify as a theory. Barring any additional credible proof that it is indeed a theory, then it remains in the realm of belief, or conjecture at best. It seems some are bent on getting a second- and third bite at the apple on this point.--FeloniousMonk 17:42, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)