Misplaced Pages

Adieu (or Au revoir ?) Halacoglu

The material referring to Halacoglu in the Turkish Position/Casualties which relied on TV interviews, and wasn't in English as she is spoke or writ, has been removed. There's no reason why Halacoglu's writings on the subject (in particular the two works in English) shouldn't be mentioned, but not second hand, only if supported by citations from the works in question. WP:CS refers. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian killed pregnant womans!

At that time , armenians were attacting turkish people. And they were attacking defendless innocent people. they killed pregnant woman and opened her belly just for fun to check whether baby is male or female.

Do you want me to give another story? I have many. There was a guy and his neithbor was armenian. At that time, armenians captured him and they tied him to a tree. And they started to cut his children's ear. They forced him to eat ears of his children. They didn't killed this guy. Because they wanted him to suffer by thinking his dead childrens.

In adana, people ascaped to mountains to survive because armenians were cutting them.

I beg you !! Dont show armenian as angel please.. We didnt forget anything and "armenian genocide propanganda" is nothing more than insulting us. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.50.215 (talk • contribs) .

This isn't a Turkish fiction story site mate - seems you've happened upon the wrong place.--THOTH 21:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

so if copy paste is contribution here comes contribution.

let me refresh your memory.

"At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and especially with much uproar... The Armenian Revolutionary Federation had active participation in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey... In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer band organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from fighting. This was an inevitable result of psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation; that mentality should have found its expression and did so....The Winter of 1914 and Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all Armenians in the Caucasus including of course the Dashnaktsutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered and its Armenian population would be liberated. We had embraced Russia wholeheartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. "

who is this science fiction writer: Mr. Hovhannes Katchaznouni, first Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic (1919 manifesto "Dashnaktsutiun has nothing to do")

December 15, 1915 article from the famously anti-Turkish New York Times called "The Black Company" attesting to these facts: "By the 15th of last October 26,000 Turkish Armenians had taken the field against their ancient overloads, and 15,000 more were drilling at Tiflis, these groups being entirely distinct from the 75,000 Russian Armenians that had already been welded into the Czar's army. Fully 2,800 of these Turkish Armenians had been contributed by the Armenian colony in the United States."

let me also remind that Boghos Nubar Pasha asked for a full participation to lousanne treaty stating that the actively fought against the Turks.

and brand new (my translation to english) "As it has been reported in Russian military officers reports and orders, Armenian volunteer bands mostly dealed with massacring the non-Christian civilian population. These volunteer bands which destroyed the Turk and Kurd population in a systematic manner aimed to clear Armenian lands off from foreign elements…. This was employed in such a continuous (with enthusiasm) way that caused problems (displeasantness) in the Russian Army." And this is not Isac assimov… This is Artases Balasiyevic Karinyan a states man from soviet Armenia. Published in “Bolshevik Zakavkazya” magazine 1928 article name “Armenian nationalist movement (fractions)”. You can find it in Lenin library.

As usual Reality is more interesting than fiction. Just imagine they attack first start killing unarmed people (because all men were in the army) to make way for their Armenian home land (where they constitue %20-25 of the population). then the goverment moves them to somewhere else (700.000 to 900.000 moved. on the way 300.000 to 400.000 died According to Armenian boghos nubar pasa. i have the document from french archives if you want) in its boundaries still they attack with the Russian army. in the mean time a propaganda (genocide claim) goes on so that imperial powers will occupy these vilayets and grand them a Homeland a Republic. later they come with the frenc as Legion de lorient continue killing in antep region. when all fails they start a campaing across the atlantic where no one was there to tell the truth. in 1980 they start a second series of assasinations with ASALA against Turkish people and diplomats assasinate over 200 (these asala "heroes" are today resting in yerablur cemetary the great monumenrtal cemetary for armenian heroes). they produce fake documents, fake testimonies, fake pictures When they are proven to be wrong they start saying that these historians are paid by Turkey, they start a smear campaign if not enough they bomb these historians houses. And the number goes up and up and up 1918 (400.000), 1920 (600,000 - 800.000), today (1.5 milion). And today I with my fiance whose 13 relatives were killed and dumped in to a well by armenian bands in Erzurum (probably by armenian national hero the great Andranik. It should be his region. Interesting thing is the tortures that were described to us by a 90 year old man was identical to Khojaly]). We find our selves trying to convince our fellow friends who have been exposed to Armenian propaganda for ages that there is no genocide. Really it is so strange and you cant help but go crazy. You should understand that most of Turkish people are unaware of the immense armenian propaganda but they grew up listening to Armenian atrocities from their mothers and fathers. They grew up playing aroung the mass grave in their village. Someday everything will be revealed only if you can just be neutal.neurobio 01:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all your claims concerning numbers here are false all around. The 1.5 million Armenians killed was used very on by Germans in secret correspondences from Anatolia back to Germany (and was used by others as well..and apeared in Newspapers from the time)and it has been widely used since. Even the CUP/Ottomans admitted to 800,000 killed in deportations...and this does not count those killed in massacres (such as Armenian men from forced labor battalions and otherwise who were in the army and were killed...nor does it include the great many Armenians killed after the intitial Genocide phase). There is a great deal of discussion about these numbers already so I don’t feel the need to reiterate everything – suffice to say that there is more then enough proof to support this figure or something very near to it (1.2 million being a figure that has been derived by various scholars for instance). As for your other cut and pastes here – the quotes from Hovhannes Katchaznouni are known to have been doctored/mistranslated and at least partially fabricated. And in any event they, like some other quotes often used by the Genocide deniers, they are from a period where Bolshevik Armenians were attempting to discredit Dashnak Armenians thus these type of charges need to be taken with a grain of salt as they were entirely politically motivated to discredit the Dashnaks in the eyes of other Armenians. The same is true for Bogus Nubar who was doing everything he could at the Paris talks to inflate the role of Armenians in the war to better assure them recognition in the post war period. Neither of these two sources can be relied upon for concrete numbers as they must be considered in their context. (I usually rely on the various German figures where possible and so do most scholars). I am not at all familiar with Artases Balasiyevic Karinyan – nor could I find a single word concerning him from any source. Not surprising really as there have been a plethora of such quotes that have appeared where analysis has reveled that they are either total fabrications or seriously mistranslated to seem to say things that were not ever said. Your other subjects – ASALA and Nagorno Karabagh are irrelevant here (however here I would also dispute your contentions - but they are of no relevance here concerning the issue of the Armenian Genocide - whther it happened or not). In fact nothing you have posted here does anything to contradict the facts of the Genocide. No one has ever disputed that Russian Armenians fought with Russian forces during the war and that there were certain atrocities committed by these Russian/Armenian forces – typical of this sort of war situation - but not something attributable to Ottoman Armenians or possible to use to counterbalance the crimes commited by the ottoman Government against their own ethnic Armenian citizens. Likewise it is known that some Ottoman Armenians did indeed flee into Russia and join with the Russian forces…much as a great many Azeri’s and other Caucasian Turkic’s did in reverse…in fact the Special Organization had been involved in recruiting and propagandizing various Turkic’s within Russian territories and this Special Organization was already murdering Armenians and destroying Caucasian Armenian villages well before the war….in effect they were doing exactly what they (for the most part falsely) accused the Armenians of. In fact the zeal (thugery) of the SO was such that the 3rd army commander in this region called for their disbandment (and issued an arrest warrant for their leader – Dr Shakir) shortly after the start of the war – for the reason that these irregulars were plundering Muslim villages as well as Armenian and that they were out of control, out of bounds in their savagery, and were causing havoc in the region. He (and the Germans in their reports) were likewise concerned that these actions would turn the otherwise loyal local (Armenian) populace against the Ottomans. So it is no surprise that Shakir ended up in Istanbul with a fistfull of (largely concocted) accusations against the Armenians to cover his crimes and turn the opinion against the (hated…he was a known hater of) Armenians. And this is exactly what occurred. The fact is there was very little 5th column activity by Ottoman Armenians against the Turks. Besides a handful of cases of resistance to massacre – such as in Van – there were literally no instances of Armenian irregulars saving lightly guarded columns of “deportees” or acting in any way as revolutionaries or against Muslim civilians - German confidential reports indicate that Armenians were quiet and peaceable during this time and in fact the Dashnaks were still under the delusion that the CUP still included them positively in their plans - thus all anti-government activity from them had ceased long before the war. These Turkish counter-charges are largely complete fiction - based more on the CUP paranoia - based on CUP/SO plans and activities then on any reality based on what Armenians were doing. As for (Caucasian) Armenians (and remnants of Ottoman Armenians) massacring innocent Turks in the latter part of the war (after the main thrust of the Genocide had already decimated the Ottoman Armenian population) – yes this did occur and is unfortunate and sorrowful. And there is no doubt that much of this sort of massacring of villages occurred on both sides during the war. However these wartime atrocities are not comparable to the Genociding of the entirely of the civilian Armenian population of Anatolia by systematic means and those actions commited by Armenians largely occured in periods after the genocide had largely been completed. Nor can any of these actions – which in the period prior to the Genocide were very few in any event – be used as an excuse or justification for the government sponsored mass barbarity and slaughter of its own civilian population - the Armenians - who were overwhelmingly peaceful and loyal. Melson very well disproves this “provocation thesis” and he and other sources clearly show that it was the dynamics of the CUP revolution itself and the bigotry and Pan-Turanic designs of its principles that was the cause of the Armenian Genocide – no anything that was done on the part of the Armenians.--THOTH 16:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating, its like talking to a wall!!! THOTH have you ever considered that if in your words the biggest crime of last century was committed by Ottoman Turks we should credit them for being so methodical, efficient, ingenious, swift and organized as they, in such short a period, apparently succeeded in wiping out 1.5 million souls (some even suggest 2 million) and that its still being debated today. I mean this far surpasses the ingenuity of the Nazi Germans that were famed for their ruthlessness and efficiency. From all the garbage you produce on this page, one would think that the Turks were so impressivly organized and efficient. Dont you think that you given too much credit to a people that are much better known for their sloppyness and machoism, a bit like Italians? lutherian 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The results of the CUP plan to exterminate the Armenians speaks for itself and the observers whose cooborated accounts documents the severity and enormity of the slaughter and the quickness in which it was accomplished speaks for itself. I am not giving anyone (undue) credit...the facts are documented and known. There are thousands of reports that speak to the brutal efficiency of the forced starvation marches and other methods of mass slaughter. I'm sure that even the CUP leadership itself was surprised by their ultimate efficiency. Such a mass slaughter has never either before or since been witnessed in all of human history (unless perhaps one was to consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki...even then...). Another Turkish historical milestone to be proud of I guess. --THOTH 23:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You are so Funny THOTH. Diverting ideas, confusing minds, telling lies. I am sure that ninety nine percent of the well-written reports are biased. But I will tell you two things that will discourage you 1.) Ottoman Empire did and could not with a prior organization kill so many people. Not even their worst enemy Armenians.

2.) Officially, the Turkish Republic, and the US and Isreal, in a global sense, will never let the tiny Armenian lobby to succeed in their false propaganda.

Dont be sorry. YOu can still make a living with producing garbage. Not much though.

See you in the conference, oh I forgot, there is none!

Sign > Jehovah's Witness

Jehova? I believe it's spelled Jehovah. —Khoikhoi 00:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Witness? I believe it's spelled Witnesses. —Khoikhoi 01:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Dumbs h i t...is I believe spelled L u t h e r...yeah...thats it...though otherwise known as klingon...--THOTH 02:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps Witless is what he meant to sign...--THOTH 02:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

To THOTH and brainles Khoikhoi > The followers of Jehovas Witnesses( Thanks for your dumb English correction ) can be called as Jehovas Witness among themselves. This is one person.

This is an Armenian Genocide talk page, if you want to spit your hateful swears go to Armeniapedia or some other vulgar site like that. Here spitting venom is not tolerated. You stick with the topic, or get the hell out of here. And be careful this time you may not have secluded your ID very well. Still, you can afford to go to McDonalds I guess. Signature >

J.W

McDonald's is pretty good. Did you hear they recently changed their menu? —Khoikhoi 05:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

So you hav come here to make threats? Is this the latest silencing tactic now? Well not latest - as it too has been used before (by the ZTurkish Government).--THOTH 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL, like Fadix your mind is playing tricks on you, must be the heat of the summer. FYI, I aint the one who wrote the above, unless you believe that for the fun of it, I hopped into a plane and crossed borders just to fool you, LOL. And please get it into your head that the Turks just dont have the type of organization and efficiency to commit a swift genocide and then in no time and amidst all the chaos get rid of all the official documents in such an effective way that even today people speculate as to what happened to them. Again, you give them way too much credit, its just not in their DNA.

You can have your opinion - and you can just imagine how much that is valued here - however as I have said before - the facts speak for themselves. The CUP - like the Sultan before it - employed one of the largest secret intelligence (and operations) organizations known to any nation in history. Additionally the CUP - much like the Nazi party in Germany 20+ years later operated a quasi governmental party aparatus of a kind not seen before which seized the functioning of the Ottoman Government at all levels and oprated behind the scenes in secrecy - with secret orders delivered by telegram - a favorite method of Talat - himself once a telegraph operator. These secret orders were by design made to be destroyed after reading. Additionally there is documentation of Talat and other hich level CUP operatives destroying a great number of party records and other information. So yes - contrary to your historically lacking assertions - there is a great deal of evidence suggesting that the CUP had the means to efficiently carryout orders of this type - and the systematic methodology of the Genocide in time and place is well documented - none of this is a fabrication - just because Genocide deniers refuse to aknowledge the overwhelming amount of cooberative data. And that records were destroyed en mass is again no surprise - and the CUP got a head start and were able to come to an understanding of what needed to be done when it looked as i the Allies were going to break through the Marramara and take Constantinople itself. At that time they destroyed records and in fact were set to burn down the city itself. They were always very concerned that the outside world would become fully aware of their crimes and did everything they could to prevent this - including incredible censorship. So it is no wonder that the written documentation as well as photographic evidence is much less then one might imagine. Still what is available is more then sufficient to prove the case.--THOTH 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you can argue as much as you like, show all the evidence you want, the bottom line is its impossible that such a huge campaign of massacres were carried with the ferocious efficiency that you suggest taking into consideration Turkishness, the utterly chaotic sitation of the times (think of the logistical nightmares) where an empire was collapsing very rapidly, corruption was rampant, wars on several fronts and serious rebellions within, the less advanced technologies of the times and the relative poverty of the masses. There would have been blunders the size of Alaska, not the type that would require years of detective work and inferences. Sorry but you are seriously making a fool out of yourself here lutherian 18:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW Khoikhoi your last sentance really cracked me up, over here its the football burgers for the world cup, LOL lutherian 04:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

`Still what is available is more then sufficient to prove the case` !! This guy really wants this to be true. They are clearly right that he is being paid for this. IT is interesting that people can make others lie in a terrible way, in matters they dont know anything about, just by paying them. Poor person...

M.I.T Scholar from US

THOTH style

http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm

From above - "We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following: On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship." --THOTH 02:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe?" LOL, any serious person knows that these scholars are a bunch of fakes and this association of genocide scholars is a major hoax. I would equate their credibility and seriousness to a bunch of clowns in a circus lutherian 05:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"In the Spring of 1915, when the snow was beginning to melt on the Armenian plateau, the government in Constantinople began work on the systematic annihilation of Armenians. The Armenians were driven to the South, avoiding routes from where Armenians were already cleansed. The town of Urfa, nearby the Syrian desert, which was the terminus for the driven Armenians, was the last one to be cleansed of Armenians. By the Summer of 1916, the Armenian community had been removed and fragmented. The largest nucleus outside Constantinople, consisted of laborers found outside Adana, working on the Baghdad railroad. There were no Armenian villages left. The history of the Armenian genocide is the history of Armenian women and urchins. The men were murdered right at the start. From primary sources, both Ottoman and other, it appears that in the East where a war was being fought with Russia, the Armenians were murdered on the spot. Elsewhere, they were deported, whereby their houses were not destroyed but confiscated. Their personal possessions, such as money and jewelry were looted from them. For the reason for the implementation of the genocide, you should ask Talaat. Both pan-Turkism and Islamic fervor existed well before the genocide. The provocation thesis, which states that Armenian were the fifth column and would have turned on the Turks the moment the Russians advanced, is a concoction that was hatched at the German embassy in Constantinople in May 1915. The Ottoman Empire was extensively centralized. A good bureaucracy held it all together. The telegraphic system of communication was exemplary. Special military units were instituted for the purpose of carrying out the genocide. No one was allowed to murder Armenians without the consent of these military units. Those who disregarded the rules were dealt severely." Hilmar Kaiser - PHD - European Institute, Florence - Historian (Ottoman social and economic history) and Armenian Genocide resercher who has worked directly with the Ottoman Archives - from an interview with Dirk van Delft - NRC Handelsblad Page 51 - Amsterdam - May 27, 2000 --THOTH 02:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

A rockstar who was kicked out of the archives and who himself stated in 1999 that he was not a scholar, how many clowns are you going to quote? lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"What took place was genocide, not massacres. I use the word `genocide' because it adequately describes the phenomenon. It's the only term we have that describes it. If one day we have a better word, fine. The English, German, and Turkish languages have only one word to describe. That this has a negative consequence on the Turkish government is something I can't change; I can't change history. I'm not prepared to haggle over it. If a Turkish scholar says it too politicized and he or she doesn't want to use the word, then let him/her take a different subject. If you want to be part of this debate, apply proper terminology and if you don't want to do it, you aren't a scholar." Hilmar Kaiser - interview with Khatchig Mouradian - 24 September, 2005 - published in Aztag Daily Newspaper --THOTH 02:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"(What actually happened in 1915-16) was no accident, this was not a marginal or small thing, it was not a geographically or demographically limited thing, virtually the entirety of Ottoman Armenians has been ordered to be rounded up, socially deracinated, uprooted, dispossesses, and deported for no reason other than that they were Armenians and, secondly, that there was very strong evidence that the accompanied violence and massacres had not started spontaneously or despite the best intentions of the state to protect the convoys of the deportees. Rather, there was strong evidence to the effect that there were orders issued, disseminated, and executed through the Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa and that this in turn triggered secondary and tertiary rounds of violence and massacres once it became clear that the Armenians were fair game and that the shooting season was open on them. It fits the clauses of the 1948 UN convention (on genocide) comprehensively, and in that light, if we are permitted to take those categorizations and apply them to an event that occured 33 years earlier, then we have to say, “Yes, it was genocide” Halil Berktay - The Specter of the Armenian Genocide - An Interview with Halil Bektay - by Katchig Mouradian - November 1 2005

This is what Berktay had to say in an interview back in 2000 :" Before the Armenian events, there is the whole background of the 19th century. (...) With the Allies forcing the Dardanelles , the Ottoman Empire, that had suffered one defeat after the other in the Balkans and that had nothing but the lands of Anatolia left, entered into a psychosis of (...) being cornered and squeezed, of helplessness. , Armenian bands massacred a lot of Muslims as well. In such a process, it is impossible to find out who threw the first stone, who committed the first crime. Everybody has a story. Turks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians, everybody. In each of these stories, those who tell them are always in the role of victims. They themselves have never committed injustices against others, and they have been the only ones who have suffered. One can remark that 1915 killings of Armenians are remembered and the Cretan massacres committed against the Turkish Muslim population of the island between 1896-1900 are not remembered. I come from a family of Cretan immigrants myself. I know that my two great uncles have been hanged to the tree in our garden by a band of Greeks." lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"...the fact that what happened in 1915 was a mass murder was not even the subject of an argument in any manner from the viewpoint of the actors of that period, with Mustafa Kemal at their head. Of course the word soykirim (being a term belonging to the post World War II period) was not used in those days. To describe what had happened in 1915, words such as "katliam" , "taktil" , "teb'id" , "kital" were used. Mustafa Kemal has dozens of speeches in which he defines the treatments reserved to Armenians as "cowardice", or "barbarity", and names these treatments "massacre". In September 1919, the American General Harbord, who visited Mustafa Kemal in Sivas, says "he, too, disapproved the Armenian Massacre." According to Mustafa Kemal, "the massacre and deportation of Armenians was the work of a small committee who had seized the power" Taner Akcam - Historian and sociologist --THOTH 02:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL, how can you take the words of a former terrorist with a major chip on his shoulder seriously? lutherian 05:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"The Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust were the quintessential instances of genocide in the modern era. Both catastophes were the products of state-initiated policies whose intended and actual results were the elimination of the Armenian community from the Ottoman Empire and of the Jewish community from most of Europe, respectively. Their destruction was not only a war against foreign strangers, it was a mass murder that commenced with an attack on an internal domestic segment of the state's own society. The genocide of the Armenians should be understood not as a response to "Armenian provocations" but as a stage in the Turkish revolution, which as a reaction to the continuing disintegration of the empire settled on a narrow nationalism and excluded Armenians from the moral universe of the state. It should be obvious from the overwhelming evidence that exists in the state archives of major powers that the 1915 genocide of the Armenians was premeditated and the isolated cases of armed resistance by the Armenians were deliberately provoked by the Turkish govenrment so as to exploit it as justification for a general campaign of race extermination. That being so, bringing up the much discredited myth of Armenian disloyalty in the context of the 1915 Armenian Genocide is as offensive to the victims as well as to well-informed non-Armenians as bringing up the Nazi rationalization of an alleged "international Jewish conspiracy" would be in the context of the Nazi Holocaust. Because both the Armenians under Ottoman rule and the Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe perished not for something they did or failed to do, but for who they were." Professor Robert Melson - Holocaust survivor and genocide scholar in Revolution and Genocide: On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust - University of Chicago Press 1992

"The Armenian Genocide is proven in all its components - among them intent. The converging evidence is well in excess of that generally judged abundant in establishing other historical truths. The genocide was a horrendous crime. The evidence is there - province by province, city by city, village by village, hamlet by hanlet, with its countless variations according to time and place yet all the same in the vast process of extermination - genocide. A deliberate plan, carefully organized and brutally executed. The deniers and rationalizers offend the dignity of the historian and of all humanity." Yves Ternon - author of several volumes concerning human rights and genocide in - Freedom and Responsibility of the Historian - the "Lewis Affair" - 1999 --THOTH 02:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

THOTH style meets its match - not quite...

Louise Nalbandian, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement, Berkeley 1963 p 168 The programme of the Dashnaksutiun Party (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) was drafted during the General Congress in 1892. The methods to be used by the revolutionary bands organized by the Party were as follows: a. To propagandize for the principles of the Dashnaksutiun and its objectives based on an understanding of, and in sympathy with, the revolutionary work. b. To organize fighting bands, to work with them with regard to the above-mentioned issues and to prepare them for activity. c. To use every means, by word and deed, to arouse the revolutionary activity and spirit of the people. d. To use every means to arm the people. e. To organize revolutionary committees and establish strong links between them. f. To stimulate fighting and to terrorize government officials, informers, traitors, usurers and every kind of exploiter. g. To organize financial districts. h. To protect the peaceful people and the inhabitants against attacks by brigands. i. To establish communications for the transportation of men and arms. j. To expose government establishments to looting and destruction 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all this proclamation of the Dashnaks occurred in 1892 and a great deal had changed between then and 1915. It is widely accepted and was observed that the Dashnaks ceased anti-Ottoman Government activities with the CUP revolution of 1908 and the re-establishment of the constitution with Dashnak participation in the Parliament and alliance with the CUP…so this declaration has nothing to do with events of the Armenian Genocide. Still – let us examine it a bit and consider the circumstances of such a declaration. In 1878 the Treaty of Berlin, agreed to by the Ottomans, contained provisions for protection of Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire. While Sultan Hamid chose to ignore these provisions – and in fact the record is that these spurred greater atrocities, depravations and massacres – the Treaty did establish that in fact the Christian minorities were being mistreated and that reform was needed. The Dashnaks, like other Armenian political parties – and in fact other political parties such as the Young Ottomans and the Young Turks – all agitated for reform and acted against the Ottoman Government which was rightly seen as corrupt, repressive and detrimental to the Empire and to the rights and living standards of all its citizens. The Dashnaks were opposed to the repressive measures being taken against Armenians and the Sultan’s abrogation of the Tanzimat reforms and were seeking additional foreign attention to these facts and to the plight of Armenians – and no wonder as the Ottoman Government under Sultan Hamid - had already proven incapable of needed reform – in fact quite the opposite – they were regressionary and reactive in the worst way. No where are the Dashnaks calling for the establishment of a separate Armenian State – their (called for) actions are a desperate attempt to stimulate progress towards betterment of the Armenian lot within the Ottoman Empire – and I don’t think anyone can argue that such was not justified or needed. While one may question the range of methods that they advocated – when one considers the great deprivations and massacres that Armenians endured – and these being part and partial to Official Ottoman Government policy – we can see that the Dashnak targets where squarely against Government functions and functionaries – and their call for “revolutionary spirit” parallels that of other political groups in the Empire opposed to the bloody reign of the Sultan – including the CUP.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sir Mark Sykes, The Caliph's Last Heritage, London 1915 (p. 409). As for the tactics of the revolutionaries, anything more fiendish one could not imagine - The assassination of Moslems in order to bring about the punishment of innocent men, the midnight extortion of money from villages which have just paid their taxes by day, the murder of persons who refuse to contribute to their collection boxes, are only some of the crimes of which Moslems, Catholics and Gregorians accuse them with no uncertain voice. The Armenian revolutionaries prefer to plunder their co-religionists to giving battle to their enemies; the anarchists of Constantinople throw bombs with the intention of provoking a massacre of their fellow-countrymen. If the object of English philanthropists and the roving brigands (who are the active agents of revolution) is to subject the bulk of eastern provinces to the tender mercies of an Armenian oligarchy, then I cannot entirely condemn the fanatic outbreaks of the Moslems or the repressive measures of the Turkish Government. On the other hand, if the object of the Armenians is to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians, then I can only say that their methods are not those calculated to achieve success 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This is the comment of Sykes the British head of their Near East office concerning excesses of some Armenian revolutionaries at some point (unidentified in the text) prior to WWI. However I would argue that much of his commentary is unsupportable speculation – particularly concerning motives of some of the actors – much like he was (falsely) convinced that the Young Turk movement was nothing more then a Jewish plot (and that the Young Turks were all Jews – in fact Fromkin in his Peace to End all Peace - comments numerous times how clueless Sykes was concerning what was occurring within the Ottoman government and empire jut in general). But OK - no one will argue that certain young and idealistic Armenians may have taken their anti-government actions too far – this did certainly happen. However, when one looks at the record of Ottoman Government atrocities committed against Armenians during and prior to this period it is of no surprise that some Armenians acted violently in response as well – and who could really blame them? In Syke’s last sentence – which I think is notable - Sykes correctly points out (IMO) that these activities are likely to not meet with success “to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians” and I think most Armenians – including many who were themselves terrorized by the “gangs” that arose and were active in this period (late 1890s) felt similarly. However one cannot damn the entire Armenian race for the actions of a few “revolutionaries” (Though ultimately, in a sense, this is exactly what the Turks did – even though – by 1908 – these activities had largely died down. This is not to say that there were no Armenian “gangs” or vigilantes or what have you in the countryside during these later times – as there certainly were. There was a great deal of lawlessness in the East from a variety of groups – most notably the Kurds and among recent Muslim immigrants. And the poor economic conditions spurred all sorts of bandits and outlaws. Armenians themselves called upon the Turkish Government for assistance against both Kurdish and Armenian bandits who harassed their villages. If the activities of such could be construed as a justification for Genocide then one could certainly make a case for the Ottomans genociding the Kurds during these times – or the Russians committing genocide against their Turkish minorities as theses groups were demonsratably far more seditious and far more violently active against both governmental assets and civilians of their respective nations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

William A. Langer, The Diplomacy of Imperialism, New York, 1960 Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain. One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would "watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession". When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply: "It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it" (p. 157). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit of speculation and second hand assertion of what some “revolutionaries” might have said or what their aims might have been - I think of dubious value. And even if we say they are true for arguments sake – again my argument above addresses this – and can we still say that the complete destruction of over one million individuals can be justified as revenge against the actions of a few – no matter how deplorable? And one should consider this - "Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them." Mustafa Arif - Ottoman Minister of Interior (after Talat) - 13 December 1918 --THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

C.F. Dixon-Johnson, The Armenians, Blackburn 1916: We have no hesitation in repeating that these stories of wholesale massacre have been circulated with the distinct objective of influencing, detrimentally to Turkey, the future policy of the British Government when the time of settlement shall arrive. No apology, therefore, is needed for honestly endeavouring to show how a nation with whom we were closely allied for many years and which possesses the same faith as millions of our fellow-subjects, has been condemned for perpetrating horrible excesses against humanity on 'evidence' which, when absolutely false, is grossly and shamefully exaggerated (p. 61). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there is no context to these comments that would allow them to be of any value or for them to be commented on. It is not even clear who or what he is talking about.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

David G. Hogarth, A Wandering Scholar in the Levant, New York, 1896: The Armenian, for all his ineffaceable nationalism, his passion for plotting and his fanatical intolerance, would be a negligible thorn in the Ottoman side did he stand alone. The Porte knows very well that while Armenian Christians are Gregorian, Catholic and Protestant, each sect bitterly intolerant of the others and moreover while commerce and usury are all in Armenian hands, it can divide and rule secure; but behind the Armenian secret societies (and there are few Armenians who have not committed technical treason by becoming members of such societies at some point of their lives) it sees the Kurd, and behind the Kurd the Russian; or looking west, it espies through the ceaseless sporadic propaganda of the agitators Exeter Hall and Armenian Committees. The Turk begins to repress because we sympathize and we sympathize because he represses and so the vicious circle revolves. Does he habitually, however, do more than repress? Does he, as administrator oppress? So far we have heard one version only, one part to this suit, with its stories of outrage and echoing through them a long cry for national independence. The mouth of the accused has been shut hitherto by fatalism, by custom, by the gulf of misunderstanding which is fixed between the Christian and the Moslem. In my own experience of western Armenia, extending more or less over four years up to 1894, I have seen no signs of a Reign of Terror. Life in Christian villages has not shown itself outwardly to me as being very different from life in the villages of Islam, nor the trade and property of Armenians in towns to be less secure than those of Moslems. There was tension, there was friction, there was a condition of mutual suspicion as to which Armenians have said to me again and again "If only the patriots would leave us to trade and to till!". The Turk rules by right of five hundred years' possession, and before his day the Byzantine, the Persian, the Parthian, the Roman preceded each other as over-lords of Greater Armenia back to the misty days of the first Tigranes. The Turk claims certain rights in this matter - the right to safeguard his own existence, the right to smoke out such hornets' nests as Zeitun, which has annihilated for centuries past the trade of Eastern Taurus, t!he right to remain dominant by all means not outrageous (p. 147). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Again – these comments seem highly opinionated and seem unduly negative and of dubious value for a variety of reasons. It would seem to me that he has developed some negative impressions through some specific contacts that rubbed him the wrong way and then he projects and speculates where I doubt he really has sufficient information to do so. Again – this is 1894 (ie it has nothing directly to do with the Armenian Genocide)…and in fact while he has claimed to not have seen any terror he does admit that there has been repression and that it is in response to Armenian calls for reform. And the fact that he claims to have traveled around during this period – but seems to have seen no terror against the Armenians – during a period where at least 100,000 Armenians and perhaps as many as 300,000 Armenians were killed and more driven from their homes leads me to seriously question both this man’s objectively as well as the truth of his claims in general.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

K.S. Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston 1934: When the world war broke out in Europe, the Turks began feverish preparations for joining hands with the Germans. In August 1914 the young Turks asked the Dashnag Convention, then in session in Erzurum, to carry out their old agreement of 1907 and start an uprising among the Armenians of the Caucasus against the Russian government. The Dashnagtzoutune refused to do this and gave assurance that in the event of war between Russia and Turkey, they would support Turkey as loyal citizens. On the other hand, they could not be held responsible for the Russian Armenians..The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish-Armenian section of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war. The Dashnagtzoutune in the Caucasus had the upper hand. They were swayed in their actions by the interests of the Russian government and disregarded entirely, the political dangers that the war had created for the Armenian!s in Turkey. Prudence was thrown to the winds; even the decision of their own convention of Erzurum was forgotten and a call was sent for Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasus front (p. 37). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Now this commentary is really telling – though doubtlessly not in the way it was intended by the poster. We note that as early as 1907 the CUP and the Dashnaks had an agreement where the Dashnaks would help the Turks in fermenting an uprising in the Caucuses against the Russian Government. This also revels that the Turks were in fact fermenting just such a revolt – already in August of 1914 – prior to declaration of war against the Russians! So we see that the CUP felt as though the Dashnaks would remain loyal to them –as they had been in the years since 1907. In fact the Dashnaks - for all of their miscalculation in various periods – made the right call here. The Dasnaks correctly felt that the citizens of each nation should maintain their national loyalties. That some Ottoman Armenians who had been subject to massacre and other deprivations over the prior few generations might choose to cast their lot with their Russian brethren in hope for relief from Ottoman oppression should be no surprise. The fact that a great many ethnic Turks from within Russian territory did the same in reverse is also no surprise (as the Turkish efforts to ferment such were far more active then the reverse –and we can also see that they even hoped to stir up the Armenians on their behalf! As for Ottoman Armenian men in general – well they like other Ottoman men – were conscripted into Ottoman service. And in fact Armenians had served loyally in Ottoman Armies as recently as the Bulgarian campaign of 1912 – so the loyalty of Ottoman Armenians – as a group – was really not in question. It was both the CUP paranoia – knowing their own plans in the Caucuses for fermenting ethnic revolt against the Russians – more so then any mass Ottoman Armenian desertion (which was in fact far less then the level of Arab and Kurdish desertions) or Ottoman Armenian sedition (which likewise was incredibly minor) and even more so – the existence of CUP Pan-Turkic designs which excluded Armenians from their vision of a future Ottoman Empire – these factors – more then any real Armenian sedition – are what drove the CUP to act against the Armenians. In fact – the CUP representative to the Dashnak party Congress in 1914 – was Dr Shakir – who was already at work with the Special Organization massacring Armenians – and was the very organization that was fermenting unrest among Turks in the Caucuses and even further East. Shakir had a number of the Armenians from the Congress ambushed and killed after the meeting and it appears he already had plans to betray them.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Anymore, Bucharest 1923, (translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender): (Mr. Katchaznouni was the first prime minister of the Independent Armenia). In the beginning of fall 1914, when Turkey had not yet entered the war but was preparing to, Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans-Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups and especially arming them against Turkey..There is no point in asking today whether our volunteers should have been in the foreground. Historical events have a logic of their own. In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks. The opposite could not have happened, because for approximately twenty years the Armenian community was fed a certain and inevitable psychology. This state of mind had to manifest itself and it happened. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We’ve already addressed the context of these comments which were intended to discredit the Dashnaks. That being said – considering the environment where the Sultan and Kurds and such had long preyed upon Ottoman Armenians and refused to aid them and do the things a government might be expected to do to protect its citizens…isn’t it any wonder why some might hope for relief against this oppressive regime? However – even with that being said – the majority of Ottoman Armenians saw themselves just as that – Ottoman Citizens – its all they had known for generations – and in fact many Armenians were very well integrated into Ottoman life. These Armenians had no interest in being ruled by Russia and in general many Armenians were highly suspicious of Russian intentions in regards to them and the region.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Philippe de Zara, Mustapha Kemal, Dictateur, Paris 1936: After having accomplished the minimum of their duty as Ottoman citizens, the Armenians began to encourage the activities of the enemy. Their ambiguous attitude had certainly little to do with loyalty. But which Westerner would have the right to accuse them when traditions taught by Europe made the insubordination of the Sultan's Christian subjects the most sacred of obligations. An insubordination which was often sanctioned by giving autonomy, if not sovereignty. Nevertheless, how can anybody deny that in the opinion of the Turks, according to the law of all the states, the conduct of the Armenians facilitating during the war the task of the adversary, van be recognized as anything but a crime of high treason?..The Armenian committees, divided among themselves for internal issues, were often in agreement to facilitate the advance of the Russian armies; they were attempting to obstruct the retreat of Turkish troops, to stop the convoys of provisions, to form bands of francs!-tireurs. Mass desertions took place in the Eastern provinces; Armenians thus formed many troops officered by Russian officers. Here and there local revolts occurred. The leaders were setting the examples; two Armenian deputies fled to Russia. A literature of hatred was recalled. "Let the Turkish mothers cry..Lets make the Turk taste a little grief". The culpability of Armenians leaves no doubt (page 159). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This individual was obviously not aware of what sparked the resistance in Van and seems to also pretty much accept the Turkish propaganda at the time concerning Armenians lock stock and barrel. He obviously is relying on the Turkish position so really is not dealing with actual facts or a proper (full) understanding of events, actions and motivations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Lieutenant Colonel T. Williams (Labour Party M.P.), Parliamentary Debates (Commons), London 25.ii.1924, vol. 170: The Armenians were very well treated for hundreds of years by the Turks, until Russia, in the first place, started using them as pawns for purely political purposes; they exploited them as Christians, solely as pawns. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The Jews were very well treated for hundreds of years in Germany…my my what could have caused the Germans to hate them so? A quote from a member of Parliament? Are you serious? Have you heard of some of the uniformed BS these types often pontificate about? Come now…--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

A. H Arslanian, British Wartime Pledges, 1917-1918: The Armenian Case, Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 13, 1978:British promises to Armenians were exactly like their promises to Arabs in Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia; they were made with the purpose of encouraging the war efforts of the Armenians, to influence neutral states in favor of England and to excite the separatist tendencies in ethnic minorities under the rule of these neutral states so as to make their enemy, the Ottoman Empire, collapse from the inside (page 522).24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This quote concerns British pledges made to Armenians 1917-18. OK. By 1917 there were no Armenians in the Ottoman Empire aside from the communities in Constantinople and Smyrna and some Armenians working for the German Baghdad railroad. So again this has no real bearing on the Armenian Genocide which was primarily enacted in 1915/16. These are just words – British promises – OK – I fail to see their relevance.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

General Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 24 July 1921: As demonstrated by the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives etc., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers. Since all Muslims capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenceless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Muslim folk in the region as well. The Armenian atrocities which I have witnessed were far worse than the so-called Turkish brutality. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Bronsart was a German who was correctly accused of involvement in and encouragement of atrocities against Armenians. He was well entrenched in the Ottoman High Command during the war and he directly participated in actions against Armenians working for the Baghdad railroad. He was known to be highly anti-Armenian and pr-Turk and made these comments in an attempt to clear himself of charges of committing atrocities against Armenians. Enough said really. These comments have zero credibility – they are a direct repetition of already discredited Turkish propaganda charges against the Armenians that were already rejected by Germans (in confidential correspondences) and all others. In fact there is quite a bit of documentation (from other German sources) of Bronsart’s fanaticism against the Armenians in an attempt on his part to ingratiate himself with the Turks during the war.

General comments on the above quotes…rather pathetic really – opinions (and pretty much just that) from dubious sources and most often considering periods of time either before the Genocide or after– none of which directly addresses issues concerned with the Armenian Genocide itself. The quotes I provided in a prior section do directly address the issue of Turkish complicity in the Armenian Genocide and the reasons for it and are considered scholarly sources which clearly establish the pertinent facts of the Armenian Genocide. While I have long advocated inclusion of the prior political environment and history – including the role of Armenian political parties and various issues associated with such – and agree that the current article is deficient in this regard – it is even more deficient in its lack of explanatory passages concerning the role and plans of the radicalized Young Turk party – their Pan-Turkism, their anti-Armenian bigotry, their zeal to eliminate ethnic and political rivals and their secret party apparatus which established control over the Empire and carried out a campaign to exterminate the Armenians under cover of war. As the quotes I provided above allude to – and as is proven with eyewitness accounts by the thousands and proven scholarship – this is the real and proven history – and nothing you have posted here – or could ever post here (if based upon fact) can counter these truths.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thoth, looks like you shot yourself in the foot, LOL lutherian 07:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

please! deleting other peoples entries does not help at all. it is not acceptable. if you want to contribute please get a nicname and sign in and add your signature. this way is better for all. this type of behaviour puts us in a bad position in unbiased aditors eyes and eventually ends up in the revesion and protection of the article.neurobio 23:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun."

heresay...at best the ravings of one individual...proves nothing...the proof is 1.5 Million Armenians killed and no Armenian Nation lefin Anatolia...any Turkish crying about Turks killed by Armenians when the Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - 1.5 million killed - is just ludicrous. There is no Armenian corrallarly to what the Turks did to the Armenians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of 1914-15-16. Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

Yeah...so? Thousands of Jews joined various armies in the fight against Germany in WW2 - does this justify the Holocaust?--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping were put to death... Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.

When was this? Who is this? I am not familiar. However I would be very interested in knowing the numbers of Turks living in Bitlis after these times as compared to the number of Armenians. Enough said. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city. Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.

This is 1918...revenge attacks...I think we already said that these occured (again this is post Armenain Genocide and is the actions of individuals - not a government) - interesting that the report says that the victims were entirely men...so women and children were sparred it seems...doesn't this violate some manifest that you posted earlier? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"national psychology... to seek external causes for misfortune."..."One might think we found a spiritual consolation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni,1923, Page 8

The point or relevance here? Should we make posts concerning the supposed racial psychology of the Turk? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Historical questions should be left to historians Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch, 2001.

...yes and not religious personages...who should just but out. BTW - historians have clearly spoken on this issue...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

(The Ottoman State) has used its right to defend its existence against Armenian organisations that had fomented and incited disorders and rebellions at the instigaion of the Russians by relying on Russian arms Leo (Arakel Babakhanian), Armenian historian, Turkahai Heghopokhutian Kaghaparapanoutiunu (The Ideology of the Revolution of Turkish Armenian), published in Armenian,1934, Paris)

An obviously politically motiated statement of some kind (if even a true one and not just fabricated) that is also obviously false. Ca anyne really say thst the Armenian Genocide - the killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children - by most brutal means - was in any way justifiable as a response against "Armenian oraganizations" who were disorderly or rebellious? (particualrly when it can be easily proven that the Dashnaks were in league with the CUP since at least 1907 and had ceased all counter government activities.) Would the USA have been justified in genocideing its black population because cerrtain black groups (such as the Black panthers) were "inciting disorders and rebellions" - can any human being actually believe this? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

(The Armenian revolutionary committees considered that) "The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war" Louise Nalbandian, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963

Nice statement - but funny it has no corralarly with reality. There was no Armenian rebellion in Anatolia during WW1 - none whatsoever. What is true is that the CUP used the cover of war to enable it to exterminate its Armenian population. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The entire Armenian Nation will join forces ? moral and material, and waving the sword of Revolution, will enter this World conflict ... as comrades in arms of the Triple Entente, and particularly Russia. They will cooperate with the Allies, making full use of all political and revolutionary means for the final victory of Armenia, Cilicia, Caucasus, Azerbayjan. ... eroes who will sacrifice their lives for the great cause of Armenia.... Armenians proud to shed their blood for the cause of Armenia.... Hunchak Armenian Gazette, in a call to arms just prior to the formal declaration of war against Germany and the Ottoman Empire, November 1914 issue, Paris.

Ah the revolutionary fever and idealism of political party newspaper writers....another justification for Genocide I assume - "Insulting Turkishness" or some such? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The Hunchak Committee will use all means to assist the Entente states, devoting all its forces to the struggle to assure victory in Armenia, Cilicia, the Caucasus and Azerbaijan as the ally of the Entente states, and in particular of Russia Hunchak Committee instructions to its organizations in Ottoman territory; Aspirations et Agissements Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la Proclamation de la Constitution Ottomane, Istanbul, 1917, pp. 151-153

1917. Perhaps I would have added to crush the Turks out of exsistence - depending on what I had witnessed during the years prior - and the losses among my family...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of Russia. Samson Harutunian, president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis, in response to Czar Nicholas II's visit to the Caucasus, to make final plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans. (Source; also cited in p. 45 of Prof. Hovannisian's "Armenia on the Road to Independence" as having appeared in the Nov. 30, '14 issue of Hairenik Taregirk, V, Boston 1947, p. 126))

Again the revolutionary zeal (primarily of those safely sitting in cushioned chairs far from the conflict)...so is the Armenian Genocide to be justified based on the words of idealisitc youth who weren't even Ottoman Armenians? And considering the massacres and mistreatment of Armenians within the Ottoman EMpire (culminating in total domestic genocide) who could blame Armenians (of the diaspora) for wanting to free their lands and people from the Turks. Get real. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The Armenians greeted the Russians with ringing bells and with their priests dressed in their ceremonial robes. In this war, too, the Armenian people took their place beside the Russians... The war broke out and volunteers came from everywhere, from Armenia in Eastern Anatolia, from Egypt under Turkish rule, from the non-Russian areas of Rumania; all these people who were Ottoman subjects, familiar with Anatolia, gathered together and put themselves at the service of the Russian Empire Tchalkouchian, in a May 24, 1916 speech addressed to the Armenian Congress in St. Petersburg

see above. BTW - this same statment could be made concerning Jews volunteering for Allied Armies in WW2 and who formed into parisan units to resist the Nazis - so are you saying that this justifies the Holocaust? Again though it should be considered that (if true) this is a political speech with the intention of garnering support...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"The Osmanli (Ottoman) has yet to be heard." (The English have) "heard stories ad nauseam of massacres, of pillages, of the ravishing of women, but none of these stories have been corroborated by a single European eyewitness. Captain Charles Boswell Norman, "The Armenians Unmasked" (1895)

? This refers to what? (1895?) - and he is refering to "stories" he has heard...and then states that these stories have no cooraboration...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Neither political nor legal or material claims against present-day Turkey can be derived from the recognition of this historical event as an act of genocide. European Parliament, 1987 resolution

Is that so?...well if Turks believe this then why are they always bringing up the red herring that all Armenians are after is land and monetary compensation from Turkey...seems a bit of a disconnect here..--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"And the unarmed Armenian villagers were forced to help the armed rebels at the cost of their blood." "If Turks were (thieves) and (brigands) like (Europeans claim, the) Armenians (would not) have had their prosperous lives, which continued until 1896 General Mayewsky, Ambassador to Erzurum and Van, commenting on massacres by Armenians in the late 19th Century, translated from the Russian language, "The Statistic of Van and Bitlis Provinces," Ottoman Military Printing Office (1914) 24.211.192.250 01:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Somehow this guy is either blind or highly biased to make such an obviously false statement...anyway again this concerns 1896...though we already know that the Europeans had acted on behalf of the Armenains pushing the Sultan for reforms....what would the need be for "reforms" if there were no abuses occuring? We know this history - one quote - does not change reality as known by historians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thoth you were the one whining that those rejecting the genocide thesis dont provide any proof to support their case and instead spend the whole time attacking you. Well the anon above bothered to provide ample proof contradicting the genocide claims and just as I had predicted, you dismissed them using the silliest of arguments. When a witness contradicts the genocide claims, in your eyes he is a fake or paid by the government or whatever your vivid imagination produces. When the witness supports the genocide claim he is divine or sacred. This foolish reasoning of yours is exactly what has led to the tensions on this site, it will get you nowhere and FYI all the proof that you produce in my opinion and believe me, in those of many others belongs to the deep and very smelly end of the rubbish heap! lutherian 18:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a single quote provided does anything whatsoever to refute the fact of the Armenian Genocide nor what is known and accepted by historians concerning it. In fact - very little of what was posted has anything directly to do with the Genocide whatsoever. You spek of witnesses and denying witness testimony - well there are thousands and thousands of pages of such testimony in the archives of Germany, USA and other nations...yet all you Turks do is deny them. You offer a few opinion pieces from dubious sources concening events not directly related to the Genocide and you claim to have countered the facts of the Armenian Genocide...hardly.--THOTH 21:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Berktay - Armenians killed by a Special organization

In a 2005 interview Berktay clearly states that what occured to the Armenians was without question a Genocide. He admitted that he had long been reluctant to use that word due to its political implications and automatic response by Turkey (and likely out of worry for being prosecuted or otherwise attacked etc) - however he has come to believe it is an accurate and the only accurate depiction of events. While Bektay does discuss the fact that various Muslims/Turks were killed and massacred in various times and places - and even by Armenians - mostly after the period of the Genocide - he also very strongly states that the killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Government cannot be counterbalanced or equated with the sporadic killings by various ethnic gangs (non-government entities) and that the numbers as well are entirely incomparable. Here is an interview from 2000 where he discusses some fo these issues (with some of my comments in parentheses).

`Armenians were killed by a special organization' An interview with Turkish historian Halil Berktay regarding the Armenian Genocide; Translated from Turkish exclusively for ANN/Groong Originally published in "Radikal" newspaper on October 9, 2000

Turkish original available on internet at http://www.radikal.com/tr/2000/10/09/insan/erm.shtml

At that time there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia. (my note - this figure is for Eastern Anatolia only - not Anatolia/Ottoman Empire at large) The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most rapacious members of the `Teskilat-i Mahsusa' (`Special Organization'), who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code.

For the Armenians to be killed?

Yes. Historian Taner Akcam has demonstrated this in a very sound way. There was on the one hand a legal decision and implementation, and on the other another mechanism entirely that proceeded in an illegal manner.

How many Armenians died during the deportations?

At least 600 thousand.

How did they die? Who killed them?

Those who issued these orders had them carried out via a special organization, the Teskilat-i Mahsusa.. Think of it as a combination of the forces involved in the recent Susurluk scandal and the Turkish Hizballah organization. It is clear that Bahaettin Sakir, who operated as the Teskilat-i Mahsusa's man for Enver, Cemal, and Talat, set up death squads in the region. Some of these people were convicted criminals who were saved from the gallows and released from prison just to carry out such activities.. Do you know what types of people carried out these crimes? It was the equivalent of today's `Yesil', Abdullah Catli, and the Turkish Hizballah organization. The whole affair is that simple and clear. Bahaittin was just like today's `Yesil' or Catli. In addition to them, Turkish and Kurdish tribes also attacked the convoys of Armenians being deported. In addition to these actual massacres, there were the terrible losses caused by the deportations carred out in appalling conditions of deprivation. Everywhere in the Western world, there are photographs of these incidents which we can't bear to look at. The first time I encountered these visual records, I cried and could hardly breathe for several minutes. They are no different from the images of the concentration camps, or the massacres in Africa. For there are huge numbers of people in these pictures . Well, didn't the Ottoman state try and punish those officials found guilty of the deaths of Armenians?

Of course. These massacres were not the work of the regular Ottoman army and bureaucracy. Historically, in such situations, the regular army and bureaucracy hate and despise those `special teams' and gangs that carry out such deeds. We can see that the Ottoman army and bureaucracy understood just how terrible a thing this was , that they were repelled at the `special teams' set up independently of the governors and garrison commanders, and that there were even governors and commanders who issued an arrest order for Enver and Talat's man Bahaettin Sakir in 1915-16 and tried to capture him.

Did the Ottoman leaders make any statements to defend themselves?

The Ottoman regular army and state bureaucracy, both as a result of the repugnance it felt toward these events and in order to clear themselves before the rest of the world, tried as best it could to capture, try, and punish those responsible for this disaster. And there were definitely those who were punished. After the end of the war in 1918 and the Ottoman defeat and subsequent flight of Enver, Cemal, and Talat, who were the primary ones responsible, the parliament (Meclis-i Mebusan) established an investigatory commission just for this purpose. There was later a military trial in Istanbul. This was a famous trial. Books on it have been published in English and Turkish.

What were the losses of the Muslim population in that area during this same period? They may be 10,000 or 20,000. (ny note: elsewhere i have seen him say "no more then 10,000) But it's not a question of `They only killed a few, and the Ottomans killed a lot'. The issue is as follows: The activities of the Armenian guerrilla bands were generally localized, small-scale, and isolated. But for hundreds of thousands to die, there would have to be a population of this size, which couldn't be attained merely by wandering around the villages and hamlets. In addition, it's deceptive to turn the matter into a question as to whether or not Enver and Talat Pasha gave a written order to the `Yesil' or Catli of the day. They never did so, and no such document will ever be found. In this regard, the witnesses of the day are extremely important. There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian incidents that never reaches the Turkish public. Turkish public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Germany, England, France, and America see and read.--THOTH 01:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

first let me answer like this There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian insucency that never reaches the the people of Germany, England, France, and America. World public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Turkey see and read and listen from their fathers.

dear Thoth please. what you fail to understand is that The Armenians constituted a political group since they engaged in armed political activities, first to gain autonomy and then to found an independent state on the Ottoman lands. For this reason, they were not one of the four groups protected by Article 2 of the Convention. You also can not prove the intent of mass extermination despite Andonian fabrications. And that is why neither Armenia nor your precious Diaspora have the guts to apply to an international court. they know the outcome very well. They know that a court will only laugh at Dadrians "it is said that", "talat was seen saying that" "it is said that kemal said that", "a newspaper states that" rubbish. If it is so well proved go to a court my friend get your money get your recognition try your chances to get some land. If you cant go to a court stop crying and pointing people calling "DENIER". Just like a kid running around saying this man killed my father you can gain sympathy but court is the place to prove somehing. Ask your self "WHY THE HELL WE CAN NOT APPLY TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT?" you could not go to a court when ottoman arhives were closed and after seing what has come out from the archives your last chance of an international court victory evaporated. Now your only credit is the islamophobia and some strong nations which doesnt want Turkey in Europe. try your chances.neurobio 20:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - Armenians were an ethno-religious group within the Ottoman Empire that had no means of protection but was preyed upon by its own government. The CUP/Ottoman government instigated a campaign to exterminate these people and carried this plan out. This is what the history shows. There was no Armenian rebellion nor any serious 5th column or other activity that directly preceeded the Genocide that could in any way be used to justify such. There is no question of an international court as the plantiffs and defendents are no longer alive...what we are discussing here is a matter of history and the history is well proven. (and what happened to "let historians decide eh?" That didn't work so now its "let international courts decide" - is this the Turkish government position? Is the government of Turkey ready to be the defendent? If not then who is to be the defendent eh?) All of your efforts here and elsewhere to deny such are just that DENIAL of known Genocide - just as those who deny the Holocaust - using essentially the exact same arguments as you have - you are perpetrators of the crime and deserve no recognition whatsoever. I find it funny that you and Luther here try to claim Armenians as a beligerent because of some idealisitc writings in some newspaper...just like Nazi sympathizers who claim that because it was published that Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 that Hitler was justifyied in his actins agaunst the Jews - that the Jews started it etc - don't believe me -http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html - yeah so you are in good company. And for you to claim that the intent of mass extermination cannot be proven is the biggest laugh of all...such things as the erradication of an entire people in the space of less then 2 years cannot be something accidental - and the eyewitnesses of the time prove that not only was it not just a byproduct of some failed policy - but that the admitted intentions of those involved was extermination of the Armenians - this has been shown time and time again. There is no question of intent - intent has been thoroughly established. --THOTH 21:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

it seems you dont know law terms in this case and it seems that you dont know much how int law works. As you should know Turkey has signed all documents regarding international law. So if you go and sue Turkey there is no option for Turkey but to attend. This is possible believe me just recently a Turkish citizen sued france (ah the bearer of the brave Armenian legion de lorient) for its crimes in Gaziantep. So we will se what happens. I will not lecture you about law. In a court you will se many defences and all of them are quite the same. A killer and an innocent persons says the same thing "i did no do it" So please cut that 7 (or I dont know how many) ways to denial nonsense.

Historical studies are essential to render understandable the incidents that took place in the second decade of the 20th century. However if a historian lacks education and/or experience in international law, that person cannot judge whether or not these incidents amounted to genocide. Like historians academics such as sociologists and political scientists who laboured on these issues, tend to describe as genocide almost any incident, which involves an important number of dead. However genocide as an international crime, can be determined only by jurists on the basis of the prescribed legal criteria.

and what happened to "let historians decide eh?". Let me tell you what happened Historians are harrased, stalked, booed, attacked and bombed by armenians so that not many decent people are left to study.

Any way i repeat it if you are so sure it is universally and inevitably accepted go to the court and sue. Turkey has no option but to defend.neurobio 22:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

To all anon users

your changes to the article without an explanation and a signature is generaly automaticly reverted by other users since this is regarded as vandalism and your acts proves basis for the protection of the article. Please stop that and use legit. means. neurobio 11:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

first picture

can someone describe me what they see in the first picture? where does it come from? who are these soldiers?neurobio 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Verdict og the UN Permenent Peoples Tribunal fully answers all Turkish counter-charges

There has been raised the issue of intent in regard to the Genocide of Armenians – as well as charges that Ottoman Armenians were in rebellion or were acting in some significant military way counter to the Ottoman Government. These issues were all examined by the UN Permanent Peoples Tribunal in 1984 and here is a relevant excerpt (material to the counter-charges and claims made by various Turks on these talk pages) of their verdict – United Nations Permanent Peoples' Tribunal - April 16, 1984 - Verdict of the Tribunal – (excerpt) - A revolutionary movement began to develop within the Armenian community (Dashnak and Hunchak parties). Following the Sasun insurrection in 1894, approximately 300,000 Armenians were massacred in the eastern provinces and in Constantinople on the orders of Sultan Abdul Hamid. Protests by the Powers led to more promises of reforms which, again, were never kept; the guerilla ('fedayis') struggle continued. From the turn of the century onward, Armenian revolutionaries also began to cooperate with the Young Turk party in the definition of a federalist plan for the Empire. Following the hopes generated by the constitutional revolution of 1908 Young Turk ideology, under pressure of the exercise of power and external events as well as from the radical wing of the movement, began to develop toward a form of exclusive nationalism which found expression in Pan-Turkism and Turanism. At the Eighth Congress of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation at Erzerum in August 1914, the Dashnak party rejected Young Turk requests to engage in subversive action among the Russian Armenians. From the beginning of the war, the Turkish Armenians behaved in general as loyal subjects, signing up with the Turkish army. The Russian Armenians, on their side, were routinely conscripted into the Russian Army and sent to fight on the European fronts. … Beginning in January 1915, Armenians soldiers and gendarmes were disarmed, regrouped in work brigades of 500 to 1,000 men, put to work on road maintenance or as porters, then taken by stages to remote areas and executed. It was not until April that the implementation of a plan began, with successive phases carried out in a disciplined sequence. The signal was first given for deportation to begin in Zeytun in early April, in an area of no immediate strategic importance. It was not until later that deportation measures were extended to the border provinces. The pretext used to make the deportation a general measure was supplied by the resistance of the Armenians of Van. The vali of Van, Jevdet, sacked outlying Armenian villages and the Van Armenians organized the self-defense of the city. When the news of the Van revolt reached Constantinople, the Union and Progress (Ittihad) Committee seized the opportunity. Some 650 personalities, writers, poets, lawyers, doctors, priests and politicians were imprisoned on April 24th and 25th, 1915, then deported and murdered in the succeeding months. Thus was carried out what was practically the thorough and deliberate elimination of almost the entire Armenian intelligentsia of the time. From April 24 onwards, and following a precise timetable, the government issued orders to deport the Armenians from the eastern vilayets. The execution of the plan was entrusted to a 'special organization' (SO), made up of common criminals and convicts trained and equipped by the Union and Progress Committee. This semi-official organization, led by Behaeddin Shakir, was under the sole authority of the Ittihad Central Committee. Constantinople issued directives to the valis, kaymakans, as well as local SO men, who had discretionary powers to have moved or dismissed any uncooperative gendarme or official. The methods used, the order in which towns were evacuated, and the routes chosen for the columns of deportees all confirm the existence of a centralized point of command controlling the unfolding of the program. From May to July 1915, the eastern provinces were sacked and looted by Turkish soldiers and gendarmes, SO gangs ('chetes'), etc. This robbery, looting, torture, and murder were tolerated or encouraged while any offer of protection to the Armenians was severely punished by the Turkish authorities. It was not possible to keep the operation secret. Alerted by missionaries and consuls, the Entente Powers enjoined the Turkish government, from May 24, to put an end to the massacres, for which they held members of the government personally responsible. Turkey made the deportation official by issuing a decree, claiming treason, sabotage, and terrorist acts on the part of the Armenians as a pretext. Deportation was in fact only a disguised form of extermination. At the end of July 1915, the government began to deport the Armenians of Anatolia and Cilicia, transferring the population from regions which were far distant from the front and where the presence of Armenians could not be regarded as a threat to the Turkish army. The deportees were driven south in columns which were decimated en route. From Aleppo, survivors were sent on toward the deserts of Syria in the south and of Mesopotamia in the southeast. In Syria, reassembly camps were set up at Hama, Homs, and near Damascus. Between March and August 1916, orders came from Constantinople to liquidate the last survivors remaining in the camps along the railway and the banks of the Euphrates. In Eastern Anatolia, the entire Armenian population had disappeared. … The Tribunal considers that the facts presented above are established on the basis of substantial and concordant evidence. This evidence has been produced and analyzed in the various reports heard by the Tribunal, to which numerous documents have been submitted. … The refusal of the Turkish government to recognize the genocide of the Armenians is based essentially on the following arguments: lower estimate of death toll; responsibility of Armenian revolutionaries; counter-accusations; denial of premeditation. There is no doubt regarding the reality of the physical acts constituting the genocide. The specific intent to destroy the group as such, which is the special characteristic of the crime of genocide, is also established. The reports and documentary evidence supplied point clearly to a policy of methodical extermination of the Armenian people, revealing the specific intent referred to in Article II of the Convention of December 9, 1948. The policy took effect in actions which were attributable beyond dispute to the Turkish or Ottoman authorities, particularly during the massacres of 1915-1917. The Tribunal notes on the one hand, however, that in addition to the atrocities committed by the official authorities, the latter also used malicious propaganda and other means to encourage civilian populations to commit acts of genocide against the Armenians. It is further observed that the authorities generally refrained from intervening to prevent the slaughter, although they had the power to do so, or from punishing the culprits, with the exception of the trial of the Unionists. This attitude amounts to incitement to crime and to criminal negligence, and must be judged as severely as the crimes actively committed and specifically covered by the law against genocide. On the evidence submitted, the Tribunal considers that the various allegations (rebellion, treason, etc.) made by the Turkish government to justify the massacres are without foundation. It is stressed, in any event, that even were such allegations substantiated, they could in no way justify the massacres committed. Genocide is a crime which admits of no grounds for excuse or justification. For these reasons, the Tribunal finds that the charge of genocide of the Armenian people brought against the Turkish authorities is established as to its foundation in fact. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.66/current_category.5/affirmation_detail.html --THOTH 23:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

you know what? for a monent I believed that! but google is there for people who are willing to learn. ok I will stay calm. I am talking about a real international Court. Not this self declared mupet show. ]. I hope you did not do that mistake intentionaly (i gues you are just fooled by Armenian propaganda sites). I repeat Peoples tribunal is not formed by UN. it is a organ of Lelio Basso international foundation. it is just a NGO not an international court. They have done this pathetic show AT THE SORBONNE, PARIS FRANCE, APRIL 13-16, 1984 and there wasnt a single Turkish soul there. ] it was not a court the "verdict" was given in 3 days (for a matter which has not been resolved for 90 years) which means that they already found the defendant guilty. oh sorry the defendant was not there. Anyway it is useles to comment on this circus. like the Turkish saying puts it "they play for themselves, and they dance for themselves". and lets see how this NGOV published its "neutral" "verdict". (A Crime of Silence, The Armenian Genocide: Permanent Peoples' Tribunal. Pierre Vidal-Naquet, preface, Gerard Libaridian, editor. London: Zed Books Ltd., 1985. French edition edited by Gerard Chaliand in collaboration with Claire Mouradian and Alice Aslanian-Samuelian. Paris: Flammarion, 1984.). Rather pathetic for a independent NGOV which fights for human rights. I am telling you again if you have money and strong lobbies it is not hard to have such shows. You cant go to a real international court instead you make this shows to feel great. Oh How much they wish the real int. court can come up with this verdict but it wont! thats why Armenians are not doing the first thing that they should do. instead they spread propaganda. If you can get a verdict from an int court Turkey has nothing to do but accept then you can get good money from these deniers. This one is as valid as our students verdict in our university where they sentenced Bush for his war crimes.neurobio 01:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Here are some reasons why you can’t go to an international court. You may think that these are fabrications but big bosses in the Diaspora know very well that they are indeed true that is why they by pass the easiest way for a recognition of the so called genocide. If you spend a life time reading only biased sources you may end up very disappointed.

The number of Muslims committed to the guards of Armenians and massacred by them after being inflicted physical pains upon and struck by the butt of rifles reached 30.000; the Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were deserting and deliberately surrendering to Russians to disclose information about the said army;

19 R. 1333 (6. III. 1915) from ottoman archives

"When the Armenian volunteers taking the stolen spoils, the Russian soldiers trying to hinder them was shot by the Armenians. Moreover, the volunteers are plundering continuously and find pleasure in any kind of committing murder. In order (to) end these murders, a Council of War was established in Van. In addition, to prevent these crimes, it was deemed necessary to form the unities of discipline."

TELEGRAPH OF RUSSIAN GENERAL NIKOLAYEF TO CAUCASIAN ARMY COMMANDER

"I know from reports of my own officers who served with General Dro that defenseless villages were bombarded and then occupied, and any inhabitants that had not run away were brutally killed, the village pillaged, and all the livestock confiscated, and then the village burned. This was carried out as a regular systematic getting-rid-of the Muslims."

Ambassador Mark Bristol

In these days the Armenians were perpetrating indescribably cruel murders among the poor Turkish inhabitants of the neighborhood of Erzindjan; the Turks were unarmed and without any means of self-defense. On hearing that the Turkish troops were approaching, the Armenians, committing fresh crimes, fled in the direction of Erzerum.

According to the reports of the Commander-in-Chief, confirmed by officers who were actually present at the scene of the crime, the Armenians slew more than 800 Turks in Erzindjan, and so avenged one of their miserable accomplices who had been killed by a Turk in justified self-defense. Furthermore, the Armenians massacred the unhappy Mohammedan population of Ilidja, in the neighborhood of Erzerum, without sparing the women and children.

TELEGRAPH OF RUSSIAN GENERAL NIKOLAYEF TO CAUCASIAN ARMY COMMANDER

This is about your national hero Antranik

"I arrived in Bayburt on August 8, 1917. What I saw was terrifying. Armenians under the Russian administration were committing horrifying, wild atrocities against Turks in Bayburt and Ispir. The rebels named Arshak and Antranik, slaughtered the children in the orphanage I worked at with their daggers. They raped young girls and women. They took away 150 children with them while they were withdrawing from Bayburt and killed most of them while they were still on the way." Red Cross Attendant Tatiana Karameli, student of Russian Medicine School, serving at Russian Red Cross 1917-18, memoirs. neurobio 01:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Neuro, you're just quoting lines from Turkish websites which obviously deny the Genocide and especially that unabashed racist Holdwater. Find some sources from other books and places. These two entities, especially that idiot Holdwater, MAKE UP SOURCES. Numerous times I have courted Holdwater on discrepancies on his quotes, on falsified quotes, on fake books that don't even exist and he has never been able to answer back to them.

You're honestly quoting Admiral Bristol as a source? The same racist man who equated Armenians and Jews as "parasites"? Get some more realistic sources. You do know that even Admiral Bristol acknowledged that the Armenians were being massacred en masse and said that it was because the Turks were more numerically powerful and the Armenians were just weak? Admiral Bristol was obviously promoting the Untied States' policy of pro-oil Turkey, obviously he would never make any disparaging comments on Turkey itself and blame Armenians. He's not even an eyewitness, his testimony is pure hearsay ("I heard from my officers"? he was a US ambassador not a sailor in the navy ---quote is made up!)Check back on your sources and quit being so damn gullible on everything you find on TurkiyeCumhurriet.com. How patheticlly desperate these people become.--MarshallBagramyan 16:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the pictures I uploaded below. I am sure they will be deleted soon because they are the PROOF of a CLEAR FORGERY. Also I dont know how to link them directly. If someone can do that, that would be appreciated.

I am not presenting any comment since the pictures speak for themselves. I also recommend that we put these as a proof of Armenian propaganda to the article. I think it clearly gives an idea. File:Hofmannbook.jpg

File:Apotheosis-of-War-big.jpg

--Sokrateskerem 04:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a secret that Armenians forged and are forging documents and photos... Thanks for reminding that to the audience. Off course they are the victims and we are the bad people right, so who would believe their forgery? At least the truth is out there. --Gokhan 04:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That image on the book is clearly an illustration, not a photograpgh. Its a direct facsimile, which can hardly be called something that was "forged". To call this an example of "Armenian forgeries" doesn't make sense because it doesn't illustrate what was forged. Check back on the dust cover of that book and you'll most probably find the picture credited to the Russian artist. And I get a great kick out of how the publication is described as a falsification and goes on to practically show that talaat Pasha was just an innocent bystander who got caught up in the events of 1915. Whitewash.--204.102.210.1 19:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Either way, showing that one image has been forged does not mean that all images have been forged, nor does it mean that all of the claims about the events have been forged. --InShaneee 19:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That image is clearly an illustration ? How can you verify that ? I am REALLY SURE it is an illustration. And people do that right ? When they think about something evil, they put an image of a skull pile , especially when talking about a `FALSE` genocide lie. It is very well known that, SOME Armenians ( I know true Armenians, who try to ignore these issues when they see a Turkish friend, because they dont care like their deceitful compatriots. These are my friends, some of you will get mad, even deny that! pathetic...) FORGED and FORGE documents like this. In black and white background it really didnt seem like an illustration. You can check back the dust only to see forgery. Of course they did not even mention that it was a painting, let alone the artists name. \

Response to Whitewash : 1. ) I cannot see how you linked these photos to the innocence of Talat Pasa. It says nothing about him. Maybe you want him to be blamed so much that you cant even stand seeing him by a forged Armenian document

Response to InShanee : 2. ) Noone said that all images have been forged. Why do you feel so defensive ? This is a forgery and it is one aspect of my fellow Armenians propaganda. And IT Must BE INCLUDED in the article. People must see it

--128.46.209.94 20:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)