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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:28, 5 July 2014 (Archiving 3 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch/Archive 5, Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch/Archive 4) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WT:WTW
• WT:W2W

See also related discussions and archives:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid weasel words
• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid peacock terms
• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid neologisms
• Misplaced Pages talk:Words to avoid

Lazy enhancement words

(To be placed under the Expressions that lack precision section)

Lazy enhancement words

• WP:VERY
• WP:LAZYWORDS

Template:Quote box4 Intensifiers like very (or not very, etc.) used to "magnify" the following word should together be replaced with an appropriate single-word verb, adjective, or adverb.

• WP:SOME
• WP:SEVERAL

Template:Quote box4 Quantifiers like several, some, many, few can be imprecisely interpreted, both in value and in POV. It's preferable when possible to give a precise numerical value ("99 bottles of beer"), a range ("5-6 days"), or an upper/lower limit ("over 15 members", "nearly 50 speeches"), or just leave off the quantifier completely ("has written several articles about" -> "has authored articles about").

Discussion

I boldly added this. Someone reverted it within seconds screaming "WP:CONSENSUS! WP:CONSENSUS!". I think it reflects straightforward, good practices that are taught commonly in writing classes. Now I leave it here until someone cares to add a version back. -- Netoholic @ 10:33, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yep, I reverted Netoholic, as seen here and here, and as further addressed on my talk page. And like I told him: His addition used authoritative language for what is a guideline, and he even suggested that editors should avoid use of the word several, despite it often being quite appropriate to use the word several, such as when avoiding a WP:Linkfarm of names. The "several, some, many, few" topic he added is very much already covered by the WP:Weasel words portion of the guideline. So if his elaboration on that aspect belongs anywhere on that page, it's in that section. And like Template:Who states: "Use good judgment when deciding whether greater specificity is actually in the best interests of the article. Words like some or most are not banned and can be useful and appropriate. If greater specificity would result in a tedious laundry list of items with no real importance, then Misplaced Pages should remain concise, even if it means being vague. If the reliable sources are not specific—if the reliable sources say only 'Some people...'—then Misplaced Pages must remain vague." Flyer22 (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"topic he added is very much already covered" > "topic he added is already extensively|adequately|substantially covered". -- Netoholic @ 11:14, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"Several" can always be replaced with either a more precise numerical value or eliminated by creative rephrasing (as in the examples). The big problem with "several" is it tends to be borderline original research (because it is supplied by the estimations of the editor), can be interpreted by the reader in a subjective way, and is useless as to the serious researcher referring to Misplaced Pages who needs more precision. You can avoid a WP:Linkfarm by either find a source that gives a numerical value or estimate, or by rephrasing to avoid any "guess" word like several. There is some overlap with WP:Weasel words, but that is about how phrases can infer a bias... WP:LAZY is meant to be about precision. Lastly, I don't understand the relevance of Template:Who. If that sentiment is a Style guideline that you think WP should follow, then why is it on an obscure template documentation page? -- Netoholic @ 11:05, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Like I just told you here, keep the grammar lessons to yourself. Almost every "grammar expert" I encounter on Misplaced Pages needs quite a few grammar lessons before attempting to teach anyone on the topic. Nice of you to point out the "extensively covered" option, though, given how much I've used that wording in Misplaced Pages debates.

As for the rest: Nope, I don't see a big problem with "several"...if people use it correctly. WP:Linkfarm is often best avoided by using words such as several or many. Template:Who is relevant because it specifically addresses the type of words you are looking to discourage; it states why those words may be appropriate and why matters cannot always be worded as precisely as you would like. The WP:Weasel words section, for example, points to Template:By whom. Flyer22 (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"Almost every "grammar expert" I encounter on Misplaced Pages needs copious|more|further|extensive grammar lessons before attempting" -- Netoholic @ 12:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I mean no insult in replying with alternative grammar, I just want to illustrate to readers of this proposal how engaging the language can be. Here's another example from a recent cleanup. The guideline I propose is just that, a guideline. People can ignore it if it makes sense in context, but maybe it'll inspire them to use the vast treasures of the language and replace editor guess-timations with precision. The intent is to make the language used in articles better. "Several" is one of the most common lazy words out there and used as a "filler". If you observe where its used, you can deeply feel the laziness and emptiness from it. Its a difficult habit to break, but worthwhile. -- Netoholic @ 12:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

You mean "no insult in replying with alternative grammar." Sure, you don't. You simply mean to condescend and to assert the superiority you clearly think you have. You know very well that you are patronizing and that it doesn't help a thing, other than your ego, to nitpick at others' grammar during a discussion about improving a guideline, even if a guideline about grammar. I don't tolerate passive-aggressive WP:Dick behavior. So go ahead and save it for others at this talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 12:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

"You're knowledgeable|conscious|cognizant that you are patronizing" --Netoholic @ 13:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I feel like you've crossed the line from discussion into personal attacks. Good day. --Netoholic @ 13:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: More reverts on this matter are here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 13:33, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like this discussion might benefit from an outside opinion.

I don't understand where the proposal relating to intensifiers is coming from. They're used all the time and they make perfectly good sentences (sorry, I couldn't think of a single adjective that would properly capture the sense of "perfectly good"). The source given in support of this idea actually only covers the word "very", and it is from a creative writing blog, so not necessarily a very reliable guide to what we should do on WP (sorry, again, I don't know what "very reliable" would be as a single word - it's harder than you might think, isn't it?).

The second proposal is easier to understand, but I'm not very sure ("Certain"! This one's "certain", isn't it? Did I get it right?) about it all the same. If a precise (or approximate) number is known, then it would be better give that. But, then again, I'm not sure most editors need telling this. We tend to use vague quantifiers when they are all we have, and you can often (sorry, I mean "between 25 and 35 percent of the time") make a phrase less precise, or even inaccurate, by removing one. For example, "Many people eat in restaurants" may be preferable to "People eat in restaurants", because the latter might be taken to mean that all people eat in restaurants, or that people in general do so, neither of which is what is intended. Unless you can get your hands on a survey, I don't think there's an easy way around this. Formerip (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Generally speaking, most (but not all) intensifiers can be safely omitted for cleaner language and stronger style. The usual best advice is to simply remove them when not needed, rather than hunt around for a more complicated replacement synonym. She was very committed becomes She was committed without problem. That doesn't mean we should advise an explicit ban on their use and we don't need to add these proposals. I find singling out the simplest and most basic of words as "words to watch" an unhelpful addition to the guideline. Telling people not to use many seems like a complete non-starter to me. (Today's featured article uses many without controversy or jarring stylistic effect.) I think cases of vague language like somewhat are already covered under WP:ALLEGED and instances of undue emphatic words are already covered under the principle of WP:OPED which is about giving undue emphasis not found in sources. I'm not convinced these proposals would end more talk page debates than cause more trivial ones (Of the painful type The MOS says we can't use the word "few").__ E L A Q U E A T E 15:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The fewer Strunk and White style recommendations, the better. Choor monster (talk) 15:12, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

@Formerip - "perfectly good" is fine in your usage, as "perfect" and "good" are differently defined. "Many people eat in restaurants" could perhaps be "People generally eat at restaurants" or flip the order "Restaurants are regularly patronized" (making "people" implied with the use of patronized). Also, this guideline could inspire editors to leave out obvious or redundant filler statements entirely. Aspects of this guideline do overlap with the areas you mentioned, but those are policy-related and regard bias, this guideline is focused on precision of speech. A little overlap isn't bad. Also, this isn't the final version, suggestions for improvement are welcome and we can add in cross-references to and from the bias policies. ADDED: took a stab at removing quantifiers from the FA you mentioned. I was impressed that there was only one use of "very" already... seems that people follow that style point commonly. I didn't do a run-through for all the quantifiers (like "some"). -- Netoholic @ 19:32, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

There are a number of problems with what you are saying here. Firstly, your proposed solutions to the problem of "Many people eat in restaurants" do not follow the advice you set out above, which is simply to leave off the quantifier. So, at the very least, your proposal needs amending to something like: "...avoid the quantifier by whatever means you can think of".

Second problem is that neither of your proposed solutions has the same meaning as "Many people eat in restaurants". I would say that it is true that many people eat in restaurants. But to say they generally do so is a different proposition and it is false, in my experience, because in reality most of them do so only occasionally. To say that restaurants are regularly patronised by people (not, BTW how awkward the phrasing is) is also a different proposition. They might easily be regularly patronised by only a tiny minority of the general population. This problem is not necessarily fatal because, if we try a bit harder, maybe we can think of a way of doing it without changing the meaning. But it highlights the problem that bad style advice can have the effect that people end up writing less precisely.

The real problem is that the alternative versions, even ignoring the fact that they don't mean the same thing, are in no way an improvement. They are no less vague, no more grammatical and certainly not any stylistically better. So what was the point of the advice? I actually can't think of any way in which "Most people eat in restaurants" can be improved.

The same thing goes for the "use a single adjective rule". Apart from the fact that it is only sometimes possible, it's not an appropriate guide to writing an encylopaedia. It's great for a high school writing class, because it will encouraged varied, vivid and emotive language. But that's not what we want from editors. It is perfectly fine for us to say that the Empire State Building is "very tall" (can you explain to me why it might not be). We have absolutely no need to be digging out our thesauruses and coming up with words like "gargantuan" or "colossal". Formerip (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, the best solution to "Many people eat in restaurants" would be something like "A 2009 survey conducted by the Restaurant Owners Association found that 84% of people visit restaurants yearly". This guideline would encourage people to go out and find reliable sources rather than settle for ambiguous quantifiers. Something being called "very tall" demands the response compared to what and especially demands an objective measurement. If those things can't be identified, then at least we can strive to use more variety in our language than "very". --Netoholic @ 21:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, being specific or making comparisons is a good think to do if there is sourcing available that allows us to do that. But, often, there won't be. If the source says "Many accountants still use calculators" or "Rooftop swimming pools are unsuitable for very tall buildings", there's no stylistic need to modify the language in the source, and every reason to think it would be poor advice. Formerip (talk) 23:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Does "many accountants" mean 5 or 5% or 90%? Does "very tall building" mean a skyscraper or a 10 story apartment building? In those cases, then, the article should quote the source exactly as written. To do otherwise is to plagiarize their wording, or worse, use alternate words which change the meaning in a misleading way. This guideline would be called in to prevent that, and to encourage the discovery of objective sources which give concrete information. Thats the intent behind "words to avoid". -- Netoholic @ 00:27, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing against your own proposal. If we should quote the source exactly as written and avoid changing the meaning, and the source says "many" or "very", then surely that means we should say "many" or "very" (i.e. they are not words to avoid at all)? Formerip (talk) 11:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Subtle difference. See #Very has no place in WP unless quoted. -- Netoholic @ 09:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, you made me regret using a specific example. Those changes you made are not all examples of improved style. You changed There are several guard stations and work camps throughout the forest. to Guard stations and work camps dot the forest. Dot the forest? You changed "too many restrictions" to "undue restrictions" which is a change of sense; "too many" means "more than needed in quantity" not that all restrictions are not due. A headscratcher that directly undermines your advice is where you replaced There are many trails throughout the forest with There are abundant trails throughout the forest. I don't think we should have MOS guidelines asking people to specifically avoid "many" just because some people prefer the word "abundant". Some of your deletions were improvements, but we shouldn't ask people to wrestle sentences away from common words to match the example of other changes there.__ E L A Q U E A T E 23:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, looking at it again, I see you've changed "several" to "repeated". That kinds of sums up why this isn't a "words to watch" scenario. There's no functional difference in implication, style, or ease of understanding between "several" and "repeated". They both represent an unknown quantity more than one, they're equally precise, equally understandable. MOS shouldn't discourage words that aren't being used incorrectly in the first place. There's also such a thing as the danger of asking for false precision not found in the sources.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The changes I made were in fitting with the sources I found, perhaps "an undue amount of restrictions" might also work. "Several" is a vague number, repeated indicates that they've tried the same thing over and over (which they have). The words I chose seem appropriately precise and result in a more varied and interesting voice to the article. There is also a more common danger of editors using quantifiers to give false estimations (a kind of misleading precision) that aren't found in sources. For example, someone editing an article about a public speaker might citations of events spanning many years. The editor might be tempted to say "Speaker has made several speeches" - that editor is assigning a quantifier that isn't found in any one source, but rather using a word that is the result of his own research based on his knowledge after gathering a list of instances. The word "several" in that context also is imprecise (he could say "Speaker has spoken over 20 times..." or he could/should just leave out the quantifier completely. -- Netoholic @ 00:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

There's a point you're missing here. "Repeated" is just as vague about quantity as "several". "Many" is just as vague about quantity as "abundant". You're not changing the level of precision. Not that you even should in those cases. It's okay to not give a precise number if the source doesn't. If a source says that a subject has been on many radio programs, there is nothing sinister about using the word "many" in paraphrase. There's no reason to encourage people to shun a particular word in favor of an identically synonymous word to fill the same function in the sentence.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

No I absolutely get your point but you don't get mine. It would be best if we had a source that said how many re-population attempts their were, instead of "several/repeated". It would be best if we had a specific number to replace "many/abundant" with. This is why we should have a guideline that says "avoid these words"... to push people into finding sources and away from the default laziness of "very" and "many"... but if they are in a corner and must use a word, they should use one that evokes the sources they do have, quoting them if necessary. There's definitely no proper use of the word "very" at all. --Netoholic @ 02:18, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe okay as a general aspiration, but it sounds like you're trying to advise "avoid not knowing things" or "avoid all words that aren't numbers" rather than "avoid these words". Misplaced Pages covers too many things to demand that people avoid the simple word "many". In fact, we often summarize things, per WP:INFO. This is a Manual of Style set of guidelines about words that could cause significant problems when used incorrectly. "Very" while often needless, is "very" unlikely to cause an "actual" problem beyond momentary style irritation. It's one of the least provocative ways of over-emphasizing (which is already covered by WP:EDIT) If more people followed your proposals wholesale, we'd have more problems with false precision (including stale/outdated trivial numbers in article text, there only to look like we're not being "vague"). There are too many situations where those words are encouraged to blanket advise against them.
On a side note, you have that quote misattributed to Mark Twain. It was most probably from William Allen White, the Sage of Emporia.__ E L A Q U E A T E 03:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why "Words to avoid" has to be only limited to "words that could cause significant problems". A manual of style is more than just "avoiding problems", it there to promote consistency and accuracy by using best practices. --Netoholic @ 04:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Very has no place in WP unless quoted

Rooftop swimming pools are unsuitable for very tall buildings.

If the source we're using for the above phrase says "very tall" in it, we want to avoid direct plagiarism (since we're otherwise using the exact words from the article without proper indication), so then we should be saying:

Rooftop swimming pools are "unsuitable for very tall buildings" according to ''Rooftop Pools Magazine''.

But what if the source does not use "very tall" but gives a height measurement or comparison or doesn't give a clear indication? We need our editors to avoid putting arbitrarily lazy intensifiers like "very" into the articles, since the resulting statement can never be objective, and so cannot be verifiable. "Very" has no place in our encyclopedia unless we're doing a direct quote. All other uses are editor interpretation of sources (OR or SYNTH) by applying an imprecise and lazy intensifier. If anyone can think of a legitimate use of the intensifier "very" when the sources do not also use that word, let's discuss. -- Netoholic @ 09:17, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm very much on board with this!  :) "Very" seems like a information cop-out. The editor has no idea about what is tall and what isn't, nor has figures supporting same. I don't really care for quotes unless mandatory. Again, it seems like the supposedly WP:RS is copping out with lack of data. And all WP:RS are eventually unusable in various places. It's a human failing and (therefore) very common! Student7 (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Unsupported attributions - again

The section on unsupported attributions leaps straight into, and is pretty much confined to, a discussion on 'weasel words'. Weasel words are not a necessary ingredient of unsupported attributions, nor is the use of weasel words confined to unsupported attributions. Perhaps a longer explanation, with a paragrapgh on weasel words as a type or example?

There is also a need to clarify the definition of weasel words. In particular, the stipulation: "when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated" needs to be clear that the claim referred to is the claim of authority, otherwise it leads to the possibility that: "Some observers state that 14.265% of cats (Felis Catus) are entirely black" is OK, because the (second) claim in the sentence is neither vague nor ambiguous.

Finally, all of the other sections in the article use examples of weasel words/wording.

Wayne 05:26, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

"Battle with"/"suffering from"

Usually these two words/phrases or some variation thereof are used to describe a person's death from a disease such as cancer or something of the sort. Would these words be considered neutral? Connormah (talk) 13:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Some of this is covered briefly at Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Medicine-related articles#Careful language. Try simple language: Alice retired due to complications of congestive heart failure. Bill has bursitis. Chris was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2013. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:24, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Battle with" pretty much always sounds tabloidy, IMO, and should be avoided. "Suffer from" may be acceptable depending on context. We should normally avoid using it with reference to disabilities and we should consider whether it might be misleading (not everyone who gets cancer physically suffers to a great degree because of it, although they might suffer a bit due to the treatment). I don't see anything wrong with saying, for example, "Dick Cheney suffered a heart attack in 2000", because it's not really debatable whether this is an accurate or fair characterisation. On the other hand, I can't think of a case where using a suitable alternative to "suffered" would make the content poorer, so avoid in case of doubt. Formerip (talk) 19:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with both responders. The "suffering from" is an Appeal to pity. Officially we are not (in the example) trying to get our audience to "pity" Cheney. (I use both phrases in everyday language of course! But I'm not a walking encyclopedia! And I AM trying to get my audience to sympathize with the subject of my conversation! :) Student7 (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep. "Suffering" is pitiful, and "battling" is noble. "Having" is unassumptive. Dick Cheney had a heart attack. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:16, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

"Characterize", "describe"

"Stated" is a universally-agreed-upon neutral verb, but we use it so much that prose can suffer, so neutral synonyms are desirable. When somebody states that "X is like Y", I assume it's also neutral to say they're "describing" X as Y, or "characerizing" X as Y. Does either of these seem problematic? (Context: this was reverted, which surprised me. But the topic area is highly fraught.) Thanks. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 10:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

"Characterize" is not strictly a synonym for "describe". To characterize means to "define the character or identity of, to mark, distinguish; to be typical or characteristic" (OED). Thus it's a bit less direct than describe/call. Alexbrn 10:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

A good synonym for "characterize" would be "demarcate", which is exactly what people do when they call something pseudoscience, which is why I thought it was a decent choice. Oxforddictionaries.com (OED's cousin) defines "describe" as "Give an account in words of (someone or something), including all the relevant characteristics, qualities, or events", and defines "characterize" as "Describe the distinctive nature or features of", so they're pretty close. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 11:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Demarcation is a different thing again: setting the dividing line between things. Alexbrn 16:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I shouldn't be saying "synonym" when I mean "cousin". "Characterize" isn't the same thing as "describe", but a "word to avoid" in this context? There's a sense of "less direct", but it's also more specific. It seems like a good choice, because it's got some.... characteristics in common with "demarcation". But I guess it seems too close to hedging and therefore not neutral. "Described" is probably better, and I think it's better than "stated".--Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 23:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

"Official", "Officially"

I've come across either of these words a few times, particularly in reference to the release of a song or music video. For example, take a look at this excerpt from the article about a song called "In Your Words" by Rebecca Black:

Filming for the video was finished in October 2012, and behind-the-scenes photos for the video were released less than a week after the video was done shooting. A teaser of the video was uploaded on November 9, 2012, and the video was officially released the same day as the single.

In that context at least, I'd consider the word official (or officially) as an adjective (or adverb) a peacock term, though I don't see the word explicitly listed there. The word does have other meanings different from this context (e.g., government official, in which case it's a noun). Official supposedly denotes "authenticity", but from the over-use I've seen, the meaning has become obscured. MPFitz1968 (talk) 19:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
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