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Removal of sources
@Smk65536:, you reasoned your recent removal of sources by stating that:
the Meeker-Haldeman source links to the book "Chiropractic. History and Evolution of a New Profession", which is authored by a chiropractic, the neutrality of information here is questionable
Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that a chiropractic author isn't a reliable source on chiropractic? How about an economist then, is an economist a reliable source on economics? Or a physician on medicine? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
A long time chiropractor is definitely a reliable source on chiropractic, but the wikipedia summary is about chiropractic in a broader professional context by comparing alternative medicine to other science-based medicines. Therefore I'm doubting the neutrality of this. Smk65536 (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
The edit summary appears to be misleading. This text was from this source, Ann Intern Med. 2002 Feb 5;136(3):216-27.. It was also removed from the lede, no discussion. Neuraxis (talk) 17:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Considering that there was no discussion for the removal in the lede, neither any clear WP policy why it was removed but only personal speculation, I think the source is better to be restored. If there is a clear WP policy though, please let me know. Perhaps you could find a secondary source that is doubting the very same source you removed? Then it would be alright. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
The policy is clearly WP:NPOV, the source is also a secondary source, the book is instead a primary source, the edit summary summarizes the edit well and attempts to be clear as possible. The secondary source also considers the book's view to be a point of view, but the wikipedia summary appears to state it as fact. Smk65536 (talk) 09:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Jayaguru-Shishya (talk), you have to cite references for every sentence you plan to add to any article of wikipedia and avoid removing sentences with references. This article is written as per the policies of wikipedia which is that all complementary and alternative medicine articles should be written, not from the perspective of its advocates/practitioners, but from the perspective of 'researchers and scientists'. If you want to complain about wikipedia's policies, please do what LeadSongDog mentioned on the Talk:Homeopathy page which I'm linking to here (and tell me also about it, on my discussion/talk page). I'm probably the only sympathiser you'll find here, so please follow my advice or else you will get blocked, banned or topic banned (from this article).—Khabboos (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Chiropractic: Is it Nature, Medicine or Religion?
Here's a very interesting article from a Professor of Religious Studies:
This article contains quotes and POV about chiropractic which are usable for the chiropractic articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting that chiropractic has such widespread popularity in treating patients suffering from a variety of ailments, most principally neuromusculoskeletal disorders. I consider the writings of 19th century individuals who attempted to explain the workings of the human body based on the limited knowledge of the day, although interesting, not very relevant to the reality of today. Chiropractic is not stagnant, limited to the dogmatic beliefs of the past, but a modern and dynamic health profession. Dr. Gunther-Brown's focus on the metaphysical beliefs of these chiropractic pioneers and fringe revivalists fits with her focus of interest and educational which is religion. It is my opinion that readers of WP would be more interested in what chiropractic actually is, as currently practiced as a licensed health care profession. I find this constant focus on how chiropractic pioneers tried to differentiate their focus from the equally unexplainable medical practices of the 19th and early 20th centuries tedious, dated and irrelevant to what I believe readers of WP would like to know about chiropractic. Kshilts (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
While it would be nice if this was of purely historical interest, there is still enough relevance that it is still worth noting. We document what RS say. Until the profession does something about cleaning up the pseudoscientific practices, and publicly distances itself from the beliefs which allow them, the profession will have to live with the disdain of mainstream medicine and science. I know that's not fair to sensible and science based chiropractors, but that's life. Change must come from inside the profession, and so far it has resisted change (the NACM gave up atttempts at reform) and tried to do some of it without anyone noticing, but that won't work. It really needs to create a clean slate. Until then, writers like Dr. Brown are going to keep writing about the problems in the profession, and Misplaced Pages will use those RS in articles here. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I consider the writings of 19th century individuals who attempted to explain the workings of the human body based on the limited knowledge of the day, although interesting, not very relevant to the reality of today. Chiropractic is not stagnant, limited to the dogmatic beliefs of the past, but a modern and dynamic health profession. It is my opinion that readers of WP would be more interested in what chiropractic actually is, as currently practiced as a licensed health care profession. I find this constant focus on how chiropractic pioneers tried to differentiate their focus from the equally unexplainable medical practices of the 19th and early 20th centuries tedious, dated and irrelevant to what I believe readers of WP would like to know about chiropractic. -Kshilts (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it's a matter of WP:WEIGHT. Just like we don't put much emphasis in the science -article on how scientists used to believe in things like aether or such, we shouldn't put too much weight on the very early believes of chiropractic that obviously have changed to this day. Sure there might be some who still hold on to these believes, just like there are people ho still believe that the world is flat (The Flat Earth Society) or believe that the world was created in 6 days. We should be really careful with respect to giving too much weight on such views.
Mr. Rangifer,,,
I appreciate your perspective and interest on this unusual topic. I believe the chiropractic profession does not need a wholesale cleansing of the past. The past is what it was. It's impossible to go back and create a clean slate. From my perspective, the enabling philosophy of chiropractic describes how its pioneers wanted to establish something distinctly different from the prevailing medical practices of late 1800's, and explained their innovate constructs around the burgeoning science (and miracle) of the time, which was electricity. The enabling metaphysical concepts to chiropractic are well documented in WP. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the chiropractic profession's detractors refuse to appreciate chiropractic, as CURRENTLY practiced, as a regulated healthcare profession integrated into our modern health care system. Dr. Gunther-Brown's observation about a chiropractor who wraps his/her patient's needs within a holistic realm is somehow akin to a religious sermon sounds a bit silly. Chiropractic has no deity. The body's ability to heal is recognized across all medical disciplines. I'm sorry, I don't see the relevance. I also do not think the "pseudoscience" moniker that a few ardent individuals seem bent on attaching to the "chiropractic" WP page is either appropriate or accurate. Call chiropractic's beginnings what they were but let's not paint over the present using the same dismissive attitudes that apparently forged these beginnings but also perpetrates an inaccurate view of reality relative to this legitimate profession. Kshilts (talk) 21:43, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Problem with WP:WEIGHT?
In a recent edit by QuackGuru, a blog post - marketed as a survey - was used as a source for the following addition: "A 2003 profession-wide survey found "most chiropractors (whether "straights" or "mixers") still hold views of Innate and of the cause and cure of disease (not just back pain) consistent with those of the Palmers." Does a blog really qualify as an adequate source?
Besides, hasn't this topic already been discussed earlier, like in these discussions for example: ? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers and Happy Summer! ;] Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you get the idea of a "blog". It's an article by an expert, referring to a published survey performed by experts who are chiropractors (!), which is now in a book. The article is a reliable secondary source, and we should just add a ref to the survey itself. That should tighten that content up quite nicely. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
This one: Gunther Brown, Candy (July 7, 2014). "Chiropractic: Is it Nature, Medicine or Religion?". The Huffington Post. Seems like a Huffington Post's blog to me. Just like we don't qualify Paul Krugman's blog on the New York Times where he calls the European Union commissars as cockroaches as a source on economics articles, we shouldn't use anybody's blog as a source on this one. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
First of all, The Huffington Post is not a blog, but it hosts certain blogs by notable journalists and editors, whose blogs are the equivalent of a newspaper column, and they have always been considered RS for certain purposes here.
There was a time, very long ago, when blogs were a new form of keeping an online personal diary, that they were pretty much totally banned as sources here. Misplaced Pages's position has changed quite a bit, but many editors aren't aware of that. Blogs are now used as websites by journalists, politicians, and even some businesses, and in some cases as their sole website. Only the diary type of blog by unknown people are now deprecated here. Therefore we now judge them by their publisher and their author. If the publisher is well-known (like a newspaper or magazine) and the author is an expert, we accept the article as a RS. That's the case here. In fact, this expert is merely summing up a chapter in her book, which is certainly a RS. She is an expert on her subject, just as Paul Krugman is a world renowned expert and Nobel Prize winner. If he wrote something on a piece of toilet paper, used it and flushed it, we'd rescue it and still consider it a RS for his opinion!-- Brangifer (talk) 05:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The Huffington Post is not a blog, well noticed! ;D However, there is a blog section in The Huffington Post. Anyway, blogs are by no means a reliable source as they do not undergo any sort of peer-review process. A blog post by a world-class scientist like Paul Krugman can be very pleasant to read but it is not - and is not meant to - make any scientific claims. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak for every blog hosted at The Huffington Post (THP), but I suspect most are what we would call a "column" used by a noted contributor. Their use would have to be considered on an individual basis, but a blanket refusal to use any of them because of the word "blog" is wrong. I don't think that THF is a blog hosting service in the same sense as Blogger (service), where anyone can have a blog.
Krugman is not a scientist, and we would likely not use him for scientific claims of the type governed by MEDRS. As a notable person, we might use his statements as documentation for his opinion on many types of articles, including ones not directly related to economics. Again, judging on an individual basis. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
No, not really. Blogs are non-scientific sources and are not meant to make any scientific claims. Opinions are opinions, scientific claims are scientific claims. That's why we have both blogs and peer-reviewed articles. ^^
This is a bit off-topic, but, Krugman is a a politician, although he may have been a scientist at one point. Nonetheless, his comments may be used if usable under WP:SPS. This applies whether the publication is in a blog, a letter, or a column, or in any form other than that of an edited publication. — Arthur Rubin(talk)16:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
"The NBCE Part-IV examination is a comprehensive practical exam that assesses case history, orthopedic & neurological testing, clinical diagnosis, radiography & imaging interpretation, manual techniques and case management. The Part-VI exam has generally replaced individual state examinations. Jurisdictions still administer a jurisprudence examination to test a candidate's knowledge of the statutes and regulations that govern chiropractic practice within its particular jurisdiction." This unsourced text was restored again. It is also a violation of summary. This is way too detailed.
In my humble opinion, information about things such as education, licensing, and regulation are important for the article and therefore not too detailed. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Please, let's discuss Kshilts edits (including two other interleaved edits by BullRangifer & Monkbot). Per 2over0, QuackGuru, and Bullrangifer, these edits seem to have a fair amount of unsourced material. I will {{tb}} all who appear to be involved here. Jim1138 (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I support the reversion to previous version, poorly sourced (primary etc.) material given undue weight and overly credulous. - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree. His edits added far too much for this article. It's better suited for one of the sub articles. This version (edit 22:48, July 24, 2014 Jim1138) seems to be good, and it includes a minor grammatical improvement made in the mean time. Let's keep this version. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I made a revert simply because sourced material was deleted per "unsourced material". For example:
In the United States, each jurisdiction requires candidates for chiropractic licensure to have passed various parts of a national examination administered by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE).
or
The number of required continuing education credit hours varies per jurisdiction. In the United States, this ranges from a minimum of twelve (12) hours up to fifty (50) hours per year
The edit summary said "unsourced material". If there is some other issues with original research / primary sources etc., that's another thing. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 09:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
As per diff 617808208, you removed sourced content under an edit summary: "shorten long section and organise text; remove unsourced text". Not a word about OR or any other stuff. As I have already told you, the text section is not too long in my opinion. Should you have any other issues with original research / primary sources etc. etc., please discuss them separately. Cheers and please have enjoy your Friday night everyone! ;) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The section was too long with the recent additions and I also removed OR. Most editors disagree with restoring the overly long text.QuackGuru (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It seems that all your diffs are after I made the revert. I don't see any consensus before the time I made the revert. The rest is explained above. Cheers. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Kshilts' addition is poorly sourced. If Kshilts wishes to restore it, it should be done in parts, with appropriate sources, after reaching consensus here. Jim1138 (talk) 21:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think there is a WP policy saying that edits should be done in parts. If there is, please let me know. It seems that here (and in many articles) edits are done as mass-edits. We can't demand anything different form Kshilts or any other editor. The first revert was made under "unsourced material", so if there are any other concerns, we will deal with them separately. So far, sourced material was removed, as stated above. Cheers. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Repeating yourself does not address the issues raised of 1) poor quality sources 2) undue weight 3) original research and 4) lack of consensus. It is good practice to perform a series of smaller edits when content has been challenged, alternatively in keeping with policy once content is challenged getting consensus on talk before restoring that content. So far it seems there is no consensus support for the changes and substantial policy based objections have not been addressed. Your objection to the original edit summary has been noted and we are dealing with the aforementioned issues. There is no policy saying if the edit summary used when content is first challenged is not entirely correct the content should be restored against consensus. - - MrBill3 (talk) 12:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Mr. Bill3:
The information I provided under the chiropractic licensing and regulatory section of the "chiropractic" WP page includes basic information about the actual regulatory bodies and examination entity that oversee the chiropractic profession. I did not see anyone suggest that this information includes "poor quality sources" or excessive weight. Frankly, the omission of this essential regulatory-based material was surprising to me. I have not heard you or anyone else say that the information I provided is inaccurate, not germane to this section or inappropriate. If we're going to have a discussion about the merits of the information, please do so. I find the avoidance of such - other than a re-hashing of inconsistent and inaccurate statements of process somewhat sophomoric. So please, I invite your comments on the merits of the information. Kshilts (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
-- Brangifer (talk) 05:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
