Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Acroterion (talk | contribs) at 19:56, 29 July 2014 (→Mean as Custard: username block). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is not the page to report problems to administrators, or discuss administrative issues. This page is for discussion of the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard page (and some of its subpages, including /Incidents). Report incidents such as block evasion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Report violations of the three-revert rule at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Discuss general issues at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard. Report posting of personal information by following instructions at Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight. Request discussions need to be closed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure.

This page has been mentioned by a media organization: Andrew Orlowski (25 September 2013). "Revolting peasants force Misplaced Pages to cut'n'paste Visual Editor into the bin". The Register. Archived from the original on 25 September 2013. Retrieved 25 September 2013.

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Shackleton misdoings

It is not my purpose to discredit any kind of person,

but given the unjustified allegations and libel against Captain Robert Falcon Scott over Misplaced Pages (and its bunch of subsequent articles), I think anyone dedicated to a remotely balanced account of reality should be aware of this report and how starkly the "Wikipedian" account is limited to the resource of one single person that seems to be a lover of Ernest Shackleton:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/hero-who-rebelled-against-shackleton-is-honoured-with-statue-of-beloved-cat-6166876.html --Shacklewatch (talk) 22:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the huge blob of copyrighted text pasted here multiple times. That being said, I'm going to assume good faith and ask you to elaborate on what actual issue there is here. (For what it's worth, it certainly doesn't belong on this talk page, but someone can point you in the right direction, assuming there is a legitimate issue.) --Kinu /_c 22:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

What? You're removing truths that editors happily try to be acknowledged by the public and at the same time, you are talking about "good faith"? >ou may take a look at Robert Falcon Scott's page and see what kind of reproaches he is exposed to and if he ever killed a cat by his own?--Shacklewatch (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

If you are still confused, Kinu, you are not alone. I can't tell if this is trolling, clue deficiency, a real problem, who knows. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Same issue at Talk:Ernest Shackleton#Hero who rebelled against Shackleton, where I undid the posting of a complete article from The Independent on the talk page for copyright reasons. In that case the poster was 37.230.15.203 (talk · contribs). EdJohnston (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked both, seems to be advocating something, quite poorly. Or trolling. Regardless, not here to build an encyclopedia. The IP picked up after the named account was warned. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

  Sounds good. Thanks. --Kinu /_c 23:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Where and how to request a Civility board

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was reviewing the Administrators' noticeboard and was surprised to become fully conscious of the fact that, under "User conduct," there is no board for Civility! There are Abuse (long-term cases); Article sanctions; Conflict of interest; Contributor copyright; Edit warring & 3RR; Editor restrictions; New pages patrollers; Paid editing; Sockpuppets; Usernames; and Vandalism... but no Civility.

Considering that civility is one of the five "pillars," this seems a remarkable omission. If NPOV is one of the pillars and has a board under "Articles and content," civility ought to have its own board, too. Certainly edit warring is an uncivil behavior, and I can see why it has a board, but considering the difficulty Misplaced Pages has attracting and keeping good editors, it seems like we would want to regulate civility as conspicuously and as diligently as NPOV and 3RR.

Where and how can I go about making a formal request to make this a unique noticeboard area?

Thanks.

--Lightbreather (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• You are looking for Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance. The community voted to shut it down and deal with civility issues at WP:ANI and WP:DRN. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. As it is late in the day in my neck of the woods, I will read it in more detail tomorrow, but my first comment is, this discussion is nearly two years old. Is there any reason why it couldn't be brought up again? Maybe starting as some kind of poll for users, current and perhaps even retired (if there's no law or policy that says they cannot be contacted), about the quantity and quality of incivility they experience (if any). Thanks again. Lightbreather (talk) 01:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

It would take a discussion at the same place, and you are welcome to contact the previous supporters of the program (I was one of them) but honestly, I don't see it happening. Civility isn't really very enforceable for a number of reasons. See WP:BIAS for some of the reasons, ie: what is offensive to one group of people isn't to another, so it is often impossible to define what "civil" is. Another is the observation that some of our best content creators can be, well, testy. That is the controversial part. I've never blocked for simple incivility and likely never would because of this. What often happens is that a discussion on civility often gets very incivil itself and can make the situation even worse. Personally, I try to let incivility and even insults just roll off my back, and recommend others do the same when it is possible. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I concur to follow up at WP:WikiProject Editor Retention. Although there is no agreement on specific words that are uncivil, there are a few editors known as "good content creators" who are intolerant. In the short run, they benefit Misplaced Pages. In the long run, they may or may not benefit Misplaced Pages, because some of them are clearly over the line (no matter in what Anglophone culture). There should be a better mechanism for addressing habitual incivility. By the way,WP:DRN is not and cannot be a way to deal with incivility. Since dispute resolution is meant to address content disputes, the dispute resolution volunteers will close a case if it is being complicated by conduct issues. Dispute resolution works best when the editors are willing to work collaboratively but need assistance. WP:ANI is not an ideal place for discussing incivility, because extended threads there become uncivil (and because some of the most contentious content creators have entourages who support them, and due to the supermajority nature of consensus, it becomes difficult to get consensus to sanction them). I agree that a better process is needed for addressing incivility. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Dennis Brown, I am still studying the Village pump link you gave. I have only just finished going through the first of multiple threads under the section header. After my first pass, I count 98 votes. And some of the comments there, and even here, surprise me. Specifically, that civility isn't enforceable or that there is no agreement on what civility is. But certainly there is agreement about conduct that is uncivil. There are actual policies re: Personal attacks and Harassment. Disruptive editing, on the other hand, is described in a behavioral guideline, and tendentious editing is described in an essay.

I would wager that a lot of people who leave Misplaced Pages, especially women who leave, do so because they feel civility is a crumbled pillar. You practically have to call someone a expletive or say something about their mother... No, honestly, I've seen people use that kind of language here with no repercussion. Not to say that there aren't good men on WP - there are. Or that there aren't bad women - there are. But when you have a self-policing group that is at least 85% men, you get what Misplaced Pages is today.

First step, IMO (and I probably will start an honest-to-god discussion somewhere soon, after I've done some more thinking and talking here), is not to call the civility board the "Wikiquette" board. Right off the bat, we alienate the whole crowd of people who read that and think they have to stick their pinkies in the air when they drink. I saw a lot of talk about a 3O board for conduct, and that might work. Frankly, I think it ought to be simply the Civility board, and make it clear at the top that it addresses civility policies only. (Make people take disruptive and tendentious editing, and other guideline or essay based conduct) to ANI or ArbCom, because those are harder to prove.) And if there is concern that there are already too many conduct boards, why not merge some of those? Why have separate COI and paid advocacy boards? Or separate sockpuppet, username and vandalism boards?

I honestly think that if Misplaced Pages cracked down on harassment and personal attacks, there would be, at first, a rash of short bans/blocks, then a huge improvement in conduct and in content, too. It is ridiculous to condone incivility in some editors because they're somehow too good to lose otherwise. This is supposed to be a "wiki" (collaborative) "paedia" (body of knowledge). Kill the wiki - and incivility does just that - and the rest will lose its vigor. Lightbreather (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as an admin with over two years with the bit, I'm one of those that thinks that civility isn't enforceable on a multi-national website. We can deal with personal attacks, and deal with long term gross incivility where there is a clear pattern, but anything else is unenforceable. I didn't think so two years ago, but I do now. From my experience, talking with editors and trying to find common ground, plus tolerating a a good deal of heat and occasional swearing is the only way to deal with it. If you start blocking people for singular incidents of incivility, you would lose half the wiki in a week. The fact is, when people work together, they will bump heads, and sometimes good things come from that, sometimes just rudeness comes from it. This is true in the real world as much as it is here. Grown ups will sometimes tell each other to "fuck off". I'm willing to talk to folks and get them to try to get along, but I'm not willing to block over it. I understand it can be frustrating, but it is part of the process. Yes, some leave due to the occasional crassness, but at least as many would if you tried to enforce civility. The really, big, big problem is that it is impossible to enforce civility without introducing my own version of civility, which may differ from yours, or other admin, so it would be enforced unevenly, which is grossly unfair, and would cause all kinds of drama at the boards because Editor 1 said "piss off" and got blocked, and Editor 2 said the same thing and wasn't, because two different admin reviewed it. You can't codify what is and isn't civil when you live in a global neighborhood, at least not when we are talking about small doses of it. My opinion is that it would be a net loss for editor retention if we enforced it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as one who was once blocked for using the word sycophantic, it's my impression that the civility policy, such as it is, was once policed rather aggressively by a number of admins. Didn't really make any difference though, and it wouldn't really make any difference if the idea was resurrected. Eric Corbett 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, it is an awfully smarmy word ;-) but if all you were blocked for was using it, then I'd say civility was policed rather aggressively then. Lightbreather (talk) 23:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars, as it's impossible to define and therefore to enforce. To give you just one example, it's my opinion that one of the most incivil people on WP is Jimbo Wales, and very few would have the balls to block him. Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me. Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one. Eric Corbett 20:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

"Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me." - Brilliantly put!!! --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 17:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Amazingly, Eric Corbett, I missed the last, "Besides" sentence of your comment yesterday. Probably because there were so many comments, and I was reading pretty fast, and you made your point (or seemed to) up front. But, following up today, and trying to figure out why another editor found your comment "brilliant" - there are errors in your argument. First, although it might be impossible to come up with a definition of what civility means that we could all agreed on, it's absolutely possible to define specific behaviors that are unacceptable. For instance, most would agree that calling someone the "N" word or, as you've done here, the "C" word, is unacceptable. Further, your own use of the "C" word here indicates that you believe someone can act in such a way that merits being called that word. And your use of that word also indicates you had, at least, a certain gender in mind, if not a certain person, when you said it. Either way, it is grossly offensive.

Will you please remove that "Besides" sentence, Eric? If you do, then I will remove this whole reply. If you don't, it's an example of a reason why PAIN, or something like it, should be restored. Lightbreather (talk) 04:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• You can also find lots about the varies attempts to make civility actionable in the archives of Misplaced Pages talk:Civility. Monty₈₄₅ 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Before there was WQA, there was the dedicated Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard (shortcut: the aptly chosen WP:PAIN). This was shut down for some of the same reasons as WQA at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. The collective experience, I suppose, is that civility and the avoidance of personal attacks is important, but that it is better to depend on a collective ethos of treating one another well, as partners on a collaborative project, rather than to rely on primarily on a sanctions model in an area well-known to result in disagreements over line-drawing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I strongly disagree with Eric that it was a mistake to make civility one of our pillars. I have no opinion as to whether or not Jimbo is one of the most incivil people on the encyclopedia, but without civility, this place would be destroyed in a few days or weeks once the fighting started in earnest and unchecked.

But...I do agree that the issue really isn't civility per se, because Eric is right that many times incivility tends to be about saying something someone doesn't agree with and then...it becomes a long standing personal conflict that bounces around from noticeboard to noticeboard because we are ill equipped to deal with personal conflict and brush it under the carpet or try to deal with it as an intervention issue and not just like EVERY other issue on other boards where the community discusses the issue and makes a non binding determination with a consensus. Yes, I agree with lightbreather that we need something so, sometime back I created Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conflict Resolution to begin creating a board like what Lightbreather is asking about...while trying very hard not to be Wikiquette assistance. You see, Misplaced Pages has no etiquette, which is simply "a code of behavior that delineates expectations...". We also don't deal well with conflict and DR/N is absolutely not designed to deal with it, almost at all. My hope is still that someday we can have a WP:CRN, similar to WP:DRN that deals with content disputes but much simpler and styled like the other noticeboards to try and deal with personal conflict.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Dang, Newyorkbrad, PAIN - which was, wow, deleted over five years ago - is even closer to what I'm thinking about than the "Wikiquette assistance" board that was shut down two years ago. But for civility issues that have policies, it seems like something that ought to be resurrected. I don't know about other conduct issues, but if an editor personally attacks or harasses another, it is easy to prove. Such conduct should get one warning, then a short (72 hours?) ban or block, then, if repeated, a longer ban/block, and so on. I would wager, from my own experience and observation, that persistent, unsubstantiated personal attacks and harassment have driven away a lot of decent editors. Lightbreather (talk) 23:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh...I see, you are more concerned with personal attacks than conflict. Yeah....we have AN/I for that and it works well.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. A CRN sounds great, too, but a lot of the comments I read in the old discussion, and some here, seem to say that civility is just too subjective to address effectively. Broadly, that may be true, but some things - like PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence, or the lack of it. Lightbreather (talk) 00:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

CRN would not be about civility. It would be about personal conflict. What you seem to be suggesting is a board for strictly personal attacks and those are blockable offenses best dealt with by those with the tools on the board where such requests and reports are made. You state that "PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence", really? Then what is the issue? I am not trying to be insulting, but I have spent the last few years of my Misplaced Pages "career" looking over these issues, volunteering at DRN, helping out at AN and ANI, as part of my effort to be a part of the solution, but have been harassed and attacked just for that. Personal attacks are the things that can be shown, but they don't always get resolved or sanctioned. The community needs to take control of the issue in the same manner as all other issues....with consensus.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• On WQA our goal was not to "enforce" civility - it was to be a neutral 3rd (and 4th and 5th) party to help to break down the barriers to communication, and to advise people that civil communication was taken seriously. It was intended to stop possibly escalating incivility before it led to personal attacks. If the incident was already a heinous personal attack, or needlessly escalated into personal attacks, then we would report it to ANI for immediate action the panda ₯’ 20:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

That seems like a great service to the community! Too bad it was closed. And too soon, it seems. From the discussion at the time, it seems like the board's function was to be diverted to a 3O board for conduct (as opposed to content), or to a WP:SANITY check process. For whatever reason, such oversight seems to have fallen through the cracks. Lightbreather (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

An (IMO) peculiar aspect of the decision is that WQA was abolished on the basis that there was no need for it, but some of the key editors who promoted that subsequently tried to get 3O to take on the role (even though there was, supposedly, no need for it). But, in the end, 3O didn't want that role (understandably, because, realistically, it would have just meant constantly sign-posting people to ANI). A new hybrid WQA/3O board was suggested, but I don't think it was ever proposed. Formerip (talk) 00:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that part of the reason is that ANI has been able to cope with the extra load, I really haven't noticed that much of an increase. If ANI starts buckling under the weight, it would probably create more interest in a separate board. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Realistically, all that fell on ANI, which has done "ok" in dealing with it, although not exceptional. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It is what it is (god I hate that phrase...but here I am using it) but it does a better job than just OK...I do agree it is not exceptional, but then neither is Misplaced Pages in general from the perception of many. I am not sure where this discussion is going now...but I wait with baited breath to see where it leads.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Since I started the discussion, I'll say that I'm still digesting all of the comments here and in the links given. It's almost overwhelming. Lightbreather (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's the backroom politics of Misplaced Pages for ya ... the panda ₯’ 08:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

As some have suggested above, it is a procedural and process failure. Civility is enforced ad hoc from social pressure to lecture, to forms of suppression, to block, to on up. So, if there were a will to regularize process you would want some standards and assessment: eg., if a good number uninvolved people say, 'geez, just stop that' you are assessed a point, a number of points leads to a 24 hour; a repeat with a lower number of points leads to 48 etc. You will always have the problem of the 'you are incivil' 'no, you are incivil' but that's no different from the problem of 'you are POV', 'no, you are POV'. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Which then ends up holding the most active and productive editors to an excruciatingly strict standard. The more good edits you make, and the more active you are, the more chances there are for someone to take offensive at something you have said or done. Its all subjective too, what if 5 people say cut it out, and 4 say whats the big deal? How does that compare to 14 saying cut it out, and 15 saying no big deal, or 2 people just saying cut it out? Hard and fast rule are rarely a good idea on Misplaced Pages. Monty₈₄₅ 18:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Incivility is not the usual domain of the active, nor productive. Excruciatingly strict? Not in my experience of Wikipedians. If you can get a good number of uninvolved to agree on something like "cut it out", you know there are tacts that are not working for colleagues. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• Monty is exactly right here. The most productive will rub the most people wrong, and using simple metrics to determine when to block just encourages cliques of anti-civility vigilantes to form. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Your first point is meaningless. If it's true, then they will also be more subject to ad hoc enforcement. As for "anti-civility vigilantes", what is that? Vigilantes against civility -- vigilantes against a pillar of the project? Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages wants more editors

The response, so far, I think is pretty telling: including myself, 11. Though I don't advertise it, I am a woman; nine of the others are or appear to be men; the other, DangerousPanda, I'm not sure about. I think that if civility were more strongly enforced on WP, there would be more women editing, and that would improve the project. The status quo, IMO, does not. Lightbreather (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Using {{they|DangerousPanda}} shows: he. Let's not try to equate civility to attracting female editors to the project - there's zero relationship between those, and such a statement is sexist in itself - if I suggested that women couldn't be abrasive, I'd be neutered the panda ₯’ 21:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

What has being a woman got to do with incivility? This is a serious question, and, to me, highlights another massive cultural difference across the globe. In my culture, I suspect women swear as much as men, and very few people are terribly offended. Are there places where men swear and women are always offended by it? (Sourced answers only please.) Even if they exist, why impose the standards of those places on the whole of Misplaced Pages? This should not be about women. HiLo48 (talk) 21:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, DangerousPanda, thanks. That "they" tool is one that I was unaware of. As for zero relationship between civility and attracting female editors, I disagree. And I never said that women couldn't be abrasive. Lightbreather (talk) 21:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

You're disagreeing with the wrong thing. Obviously YOU are offended by some things that some men write (and would be offended by some things some women write too), but who cares? The issue is whether your perspective is a global one, and one that is to do with men vs women (note that I asked for sources), and/or one that Misplaced Pages should care about? HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

If we want more editors, and editors who aren't scared of editing in certain areas, get rid of the blatant POV pushers, including Admins, who don't ever swear, and so get away with imposing their bigotry here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

There is something to be said about that. I think more people are offended by POV than someone saying "ass". Same with sockpuppets, which are often created to continue POV edit warring or make it look like there is more support than there really is; an extension of what HiLo is saying. Even with all my groovy admin tools, there are plenty of areas I just don't want to edit in because of all the POV headaches, and if I'm editing, I have to leave my tools outside the door. I'm more assertive as an editor than I am as an admin, and my tolerance for POV warriors when I'm in "editor mode" isn't very high. My civility isn't the same either. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• Good thing I'm POV-free and swear regularly the panda ₯’ 23:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

• Interesting conversation. I edit in Yugoslav topics, and robust discussion is entirely warranted, and frankly, the level of frustration caused by daily interaction with POV-warriors would try the patience of a saint. On top of POV-warriors there are plenty of editors that are hard of hearing or lack competency, just for starters. I for one prefer to use robust language initially, and ANI eventually. I have yet to be censured for the harsh language, but have withdrawn once or twice when I overstepped the very blurry line in the view of an admin. Civility is mostly subjective, and I don't see the need for a civility board or anything like it. The cultural differences are important, I believe telling someone to fuck off or that they are being an arsehole is entirely justified if they are displaying endless tendentiousness, failure to hear, or are hounding me on my talk page, but I do not use c*** in any context. I'm an Aussie. Some others might be less or more willing to use those words. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A trout for all the sexist pigs who run this site

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

... and for the people who lack the courage to stand up to bullies. This trout for all you folks who keep insisting that abusive language about reproductive organs is just fine when we are having a hard time getting civilized, educated women to participate. Revert me, see if I care. I'm outta here for a while! Djembayz (talk) 00:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Not every person that is offended by crass language is a woman. Not every person who makes a fart joke is a man. We would all love a more civil Misplaced Pages, but blocking people for using bad words will only mean that the more passive aggressive types who hide their bullying and insults in saccharine laced words will be running the place. Some of the nicest people cuss sometimes. Personally, if I'm going to be insulted, I prefer the honesty of someone who just says it bluntly, not someone who hides it in clever language designed to intimidate and diminish me. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I tried standing up to the NRA bullies, and got blocked by them. I tried standing up to a POV pushing, Putin hating, bullying Admin, who took me to ANI for it. He lost, but now I get told "That HiLo is evil, look how many times he's been taken to ANI". The bullies, particularly the non-swearing ones, often win here. There are many forms of incivility, and swearing is a minor part of it. A lot of POV nonsense gets added to the encyclopaedia by non-swearers. You need to be more concerned about that. HiLo48 (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Similarly, a vandal spamming "cunt" all over a random page is no more offensive to me than a vandal spamming any other piece of nasty language all over a page, and in all honesty, each of those are less offensive to me as a wikipedian than a vandal subtly vandalizing a page, simply because the implications of the latter can be much more far-reaching. I suspect that most people (both readers and editors) will realize that a page has been vandalized when they come across what is basically a list of swear words with the occasional snippet of actual content in between. Far less people will notice that the page they're reading/editing has been vandalized when people change years or death-counts on war-related articles, or claims that someone said something they didn't.

Is the language 'just fine'? Depends from person to person, context to context and situation to situation. Is mentioning the word 'cunt' on a list of frequently-censored swear-words offensive? Hardly. Is calling another editor a cunt offensive? Obviously it is so to many, and anyone calling another editor names like that ought to know they're falling afoul of basic civility and etiquette, not to mention WP:NPA (though, like I said, I honestly couldn't care less myself if someone calls me that).

Is mentioning in an article that someone called someone else a cunt offensive? Not necessarily, provided it's well-sourced and actually relevant (in other words, "so-and-so reportedly called ex-girlfriend a cunt when they broke up" probably shouldn't be there unless it's necessary background for something notable in so-and-so's life/career/etc. In any case, it should be a well-sourced claim. "So-and-so (radio DJ) was fired from their job at (radiostation important to their career, fame and thus notability) for calling a phone-caller a cunt during broadcast and refusing to apologize over it,(source) resulting in a twitter-war covered by (newspapers... say, NYT). So-and-so apologized and was re-hired, but later admitted live on radio to have only done so to keep his job(source, source) sparking mass-criticisms in the media for rehiring so-and-so(source showing this criticism; source commenting on this criticism)" would require good refs but likely should be there.)

It's all about context and relevance, both in articles and outside them. Though again, using it directed at other people is a bad idea, for obvious reasons; but Id say that, like with any personal attack or swear directed at people, or really, any other breaking of wikipedia's rules, it depends on the context and the offender's history how the administrators or community should react to it. Someone having a block-history related to personal attacks who is essentially given that last piece of rope to hang themselves directing it at a good-faith user and who refuses to apologize over it should get heavier sanctions from it than someone who slips up once in the face of a sockpuppet-army of a long-term-abuse banned user (to give two extremes).

And yes, there are cases where people 'get away' with things they probably shouldn't get away with, just as there are cases where people get dealt with more harshly than needed. That is not a problem limited to swearing and personal attacks; it's not a problem limited to sexism; and frankly speaking, it's not a problem limited to Misplaced Pages. There are a lot of cases where there really is no good answer. On issues where the community is heavily polarized, there will always be a group of users who feel the person got off too easy (or got away with things for too long) and a group of users who feel the person is dealt with too harshly (or too soon and should be given another chance first). That's the downside of having people from all over the world from different ages and walks of life with different backgrounds, experiences and opinions, but without having such a diverse community, Misplaced Pages would not be half of what it is. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 01:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

HiLo48, here in DC, you learn pretty quick that physical safety is all about respect. As a woman in the big city, if I can't back somebody down from using disrespectful language with me, I have to be ready to rumble/call the cops/or get the heck out. It's important to keep our users' concerns for physical safety in mind. As the grizzly mama bear who has to keep the young women safe at our in-person events, I will not have people attending in-person events who express that level of contempt for women. Sure, it seems like all fun and games on the computer, until suddenly it isn't. Since anybody can participate here, we need to enforce respect for women. I'm not suggesting all swearing be banned, just eliminating the gender-based terms of contempt. Djembayz (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Is this what this is about? You weren't even a part of that thread and you felt the need to censor the word "cunt" and now you're starting all this unnecessary dramatics because you were offended by the word. This is WP:POINT plain and simple.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, yes. I will be participating in this discussion no further, nor in the one above. "Where and how to request a Civility board," except to report it. Calling someone a "c*nt" or a group of someones "c*nts" in mixed company is uncivil. Period. So I sympathize with the OP. Apparently, some people think civility is only about name-calling or, more precisely, they want any serious discussions about civility to be redirected into the narrow subtopic of name-calling. Quit using that word here, and when the topic of civility comes up again, lift your eyes above the bullet point of "some people just express themselves that way." Lightbreather (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Noting that you have now edited that post, I must note that in my culture we don't even use the word "period" to mean what you meant there. I can accept that your culture is different from mine, and has different mores. Can you accept that mine is different from yours, and that no single culture should dominate here on Misplaced Pages? HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Such a board would probably be as useful as WP:CSN was. I'm aware that misogynistic slurs are problematic, but so is plastering a fish across this page and going "I'm leaving because of your sailor language".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I am offended by being called a sexist pig. I think I will just ignore it. Chillum 01:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I have definitely heard conversations between Australian males which include expressions like "How are ya', ya' silly old cunt?" The conversation does not involve a woman, is not about women, and rarely offends anybody. I am not part of that particular culture, and don't recommend that style of communication here, but in a global encyclopaedia we have to acknowledge and accept that it exists. HiLo48 (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The post of mine hatted above was not "gender-baiting hate speech", but two editors have now insulted me by declaring that it was. See my further comment below at 05:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC). HiLo48 (talk) 05:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You do realize cunt is used in the outside world and in different contexts ? .... I suggest you find something better to do than wasting everyones time over a "bad word". –Davey2010 • (talk) 01:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• And since we're on the topic, I find the existence of Misplaced Pages:Dick to be offensive. We're supposed to be writing an encyclopedia, not a bunch of frat brothers (or worse, brogrammers) having a good time with the guys. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Taken literally, it means I can post trout freely, and be as offensive as I like, since I can never be one of those. Perhaps the women on this site need to take more advantage of this wikilawyering option. Djembayz (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• People's actions are more offensive than their words. I don't even bother reverting when called a name on my talk page. I personally feel more offended watching two people get into a revert war over a genre/comma/infobox than I do with any slang word. I can ignore the word, but if I'm trying to edit the article, people edit warring gets in the way of civil editing. "Sticks and stones" was something I was taught early on. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about any of that, but in the real world, we have to learn to just get along and overlook those things we can overlook. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 02:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I'm reluctant to comment here, because I've seen this kind of thing play itself out many times, but it seems wrong to leave Djembayz and Lightbreather to deal with it. No matter what you think about any particular curse word, part of the gender gap is here in a nutshell (and the expert editors gap, mature editors gap, etc). Lots of people are replying along the lines of "I personally don't mind this kind of thing," or "I personally know women who say worse." But the point remains that lots of people feel differently. SlimVirgin 02:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, people do feel differently. For quite some time I've had the following observation on my User page - "Ever noticed how the niceness police often demand that those whose language offends their precious sensibilities must swear less, but those who are their targets never demand that the civility police swear more?" In other words, what gives you the right to demand that everybody else behaves like you? I'm not asking you to behave like me. HiLo48 (talk) 03:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Well I am asking people to behave as if this were a collaborative community. Campaigning for or against the niceness police is not the role of Misplaced Pages. Johnuniq (talk) 03:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with you, but you seem to have commented on something other than the point I was making. HiLo48 (talk) 03:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Asking people is fine, I do it. Encouraging civility, helping mediate arguments, all that is good stuff. The problem I have is being asked to police it. There is no way that you can draw the line, there are too many cultural differences. Personal attacks? That is easier to enforce fairly, but I've seen so much uneven and improper enforcement of civility, I find it is better to just help the stalemate and get people back to editing, when you can. The idea of a "bad words" list is just patently offensive to me, it doesn't allow for context and smacks of censorship. Our energies are better spent resolving the problem behind the incivility instead of judging what is and isn't civil. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Open it yourself if you like. And frankly, the idea that we have to use asterisks just crossed the line with me. No matter how offensive that word is to you, we are NOT censored, and I'm about sick of being told how I have to spell "cunt" or any other word. This is exactly the slippery slope that I'm not willing to walk down, where someone tells me what I can say or not say, or tells me or anyone else here that they must use asterisks, then that list starts to grow and grow each week. No thanks. I won't allow personal attacks, I don't like someone swearing all the time, I don't even like the "c" word, but I dislike someone trying to mould me in their image just as much. You've lost my sympathy. Go open your discussion, go notify Eric Corbett and whatever will be, will be. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 04:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, it looks like the women are getting uppity and it's time to bring out the big guns. Women are not welcome at Misplaced Pages and they know it. The above thread is Exhibit A for how the ban against women is enforced here. The name for this is "hostile work environment". In the U.S., an employee who did this would be dismissed. This is why the gender gap will not be bridged until the Foundation itself steps in and makes the necessary changes.—Neotarf (talk) 04:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

This is pathetic. A post of mine has been hatted, twice now, as "gender-baiting hate speech". The whole point of my post was to show that in a different culture from that of conservative Americans (don't blame me - Neotarf made this a US vs others issue) the word that can be so offensive in some contexts is completely inoffensive. I was describing Australian slang. I take offence at User:Neotarf and User:Tarc calling my post "gender-baiting hate speech". I would never post such stuff, and for the two of you to say that I have is a personal attack. It's also censorship, and a perfect demonstration of one culture imposing its values on another here. Do Americans realise what Australians think of the name fanny pack? It's actually quite offensive in Australian English. However, I have no intention of hiding every instance of it. It's sad that some here think that kind of activity is good for Misplaced Pages. HiLo48 (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I assume it's because they hate that particular word, Mine and Dennis's comment's also been collapsed, I wouldn't worry about it tbh. –Davey2010 • (talk) 05:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I've said my piece. I can easily move on. Those of us in minorities, like women here, get used to the bullying, especially from the "polite" conservatives. It's just one more example. HiLo48 (talk) 05:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Regarding "cunt": I spent many years working in the UK and was brought up in Australia. In those two countries, in my experience, the word means harsh, callous, cruel man. It's not applied, usually, to women. Additionally, in London but not Australia (and possibly not in other parts of the UK) it is combined with "dumb" to denote a particularly stupid stupid person, without the harsh/cruel implication.

I've never been to America but I get the impression it is sometimes applied to women there, and that it carries other, misogynist/sexist tones.

I fear something is being lost in translation above. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

In the U.S. it's a very bad term used almost exclusively towards a woman in a derogatory manner. It causes great offense, and is not taken lightly. If a man calls another man a "pussy", it's not really the same thing at all. I agree that it's a different thing in the U.K. and Oz (etc.) Not sure why that is, but it is what it is. Doc talk 06:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Are we talking in the realm of "nigger" and "fag", Doc? It has nothing of that hegemonic insulting character in Australia - but, as I say, it's almost exclusively applied to men. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Crazynas 07:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Djembayz (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Lightbreather (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Jim-Siduri (talk) 21:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

It's a weird language that separates us ;> FYI: we have no good equivalent for "wanker", you know. It would probably translate to something like "loser" in American English. Many Americans are taught from a young age that "cunt" is just the worst thing one can call a woman. I have no idea why that is: but I know if I called a woman that I'd be in big trouble. In my experience it's more likely that a man would call another man a "pussy" if he wanted to challenge his manhood, whereas "cunt" is almost exclusively applied to women as the worst insult possible. Doc talk 07:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Doc, that's a great post. You're an American who recognises the massive linguistic differences that exist within the English language. I've been frustrated in this discussion about seemingly being ignored when I've told SOME Americans that things aren't the same elsewhere. Do they not believe me? Do they not WANT to believe me? Do they not care? Do they really expect everyone else to know their usage (and non-usage) and follow exactly the same conventions? Are they bullies? Can they not see the problems created when expecting the whole world to be just like them? HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, it's difficult to convey exactly how offensive the term is in AmEng vs its use in BritEng/AusEng. If an American says they are "pissed", it never means "drunk": it only means "angry". Weird, no? When it comes to derogatory terms that could be used that might be lost in translation, my best advice is to not use them at all. At least on WP ;) <tfont color="#000000" size="2">Doc talk 08:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Standard Written English will be understood anywhere in the Anglophone portions of the world (in spite of spelling differences). If a word is slang, it may not have the same connotation in another Anglophone country, so avoid using it, because it is likely to be lost in cross-cultural communication. Don't use the word "cunt" and then explain to an American that no insult was intended. Just don't use the word because you don't know its cross-cultural meanings, and that applies to any slang word. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Wise advice. And I would never use the word that caused all this drama in normal conversation here. I just felt it necessary, given the absolute certainty some editors had about what they saw as the only possible meaning of the word, to explain that other uses exist, even non-derogatory ones. And I was ignored by those who simply, but wrongly, knew there was only one meaning. My post was hatted, with the rather insulting, incorrect and inflammatory label "gender-baiting hate speech", when it was nothing of thes kind. That was frustrating. HiLo48 (talk) 08:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not seeing the gender-baiting hate speech. The term is used differently in the U.S. than it is elsewhere in the English-speaking world, and that's the way it is. Cheers :) Doc talk 08:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

There are HUGE differences between English/American/Australian/Canadian English, especially with colloquialisms. I am known for using a fairly wide range of Aussie slang on occasion, here and in the RW. I also picked up a bit of Pommie slang when I served with them. Referring to someone as "Chief", or suggesting someone doesn't know "jack" can be very confusing for English-speakers from other parts of the world, but even worse for people who are working with ESL. I try to avoid it, but frankly, I tend to type as I speak, so it happens. The description of how c*&^ is used in Australia is right on the money. F^%$ is also a ubiquitous word here. I try not to use it, but it can be highly satisfying as a pressure vale release when dealing with highly tendentious POV-warriors. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

This is all by far the most ridiculous discussion I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages. Do some users here honestly believe that women overall are less uncivil than men? I meet women everyday who swears who are actually more abusive towards me than any man. To generalize like that and to say that the "men of Misplaced Pages" needs to tone down to attract more women editors are just very weird. And come one, Misplaced Pages has always been a POV pushing playground for multiple users. There are power-trips everyday by both regular users and admins who will basically die if their POV are not considered and inforced. Humans will never behave as politely online on sites like Misplaced Pages as they would in real life. That is just a fact.--BabbaQ (talk) 09:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• @Dennis Brown: What a horrid section title. And I came upon this discussion purely by edit stalkingaccident. But the query it started with is right on the money - we need the civility discussion space back.

Ahem. Dennis, I've long admired you as a peacemaker here, a fair and patient mediator  ... and for your work on editor retention. And I've posted publicly on one of these noticeboards about the fact I curse like a Marine myself, and in defence of editors' right to use "bad words" here. And I've said a few times that the biggest civility problem I see here is snideness, sarcasm, and belittling, which we do pretty much fuck-all to discourage. I've also said in a MediaWiki forum that I consider the Foundation's approach to the "gender gap" misguided and counterproductive. I was being polite. I consider it to rest on shamefully bad research, to be condescending at best and in its implementation and the terms in which the "problem" is characterized by the WMF to be far more discouraging to expert editors - particularly experts who are female (and I won't even get into the cisgender assumption here; maybe I should write an essay, but it would be quite rude) - than dirty pictures on Commons, explicit drawings in sex-related articles, or cheesecake galleries in user talk space. Or even than cussing. There is comparatively little cussing in Misplaced Pages talk spaces, and I've seen it give "the vapors" to more self-dentified male editors than female, actually. However. No matter how much I like to use words like "fuck" for emphasis (and consider such words a useful means of indicating displeasure); no matter how many dirty jokes I may know, or post in my blog; and no matter how much I may approve of what you say about your mother; I believe you have committed an error here. In dismissing the concern entirely with an invocation of "Sticks and stones", you seem to have forgotten that with very rare exceptions, women live with the threat of physical violence, including rape. As such, use of words like "cunt" in meatspace is a warning we learn to react to. Or even milder words, like "bitch" - or "Smile, I'm talking to you!" The first Spanish I learned was how to respond to "Putana" in the street. Please don't assume words don't hurt, or are not sometimes warning signals before the "sticks and stones" come along. Sandy Georgia said this mildly, but I'm going to say it crassly because words do matter, and in this respect women are not just socialized differently - we have to be. Please don't assume it's the same for everyone. I don't have much wisdom to add here, but I had to add this, apologies. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• • I agree it is a horrible section title, but you should complain to the person that chose it, it wasn't me. I don't use the words "bitch" or "cunt" or similar (except maybe to quote WP:DICK from time to time) because I'm aware of the sexist baggage that comes with them, and I just find them to be ugly words. That is my opinion, but my opinion doesn't matter. We have policy, and as long as it isn't being directed at someone, we don't censor. Again, what I see is someone asking for special privilege because they are a woman, and yes, that offends me. I've seen my wife get shit on at a previous job because she was a woman and her boss was a sexist jerk. I've seen lots of sexism, but very little here at Misplaced Pages. Demanding we treat women differently only encourages sexism, and yes, I find that very, very offensive. In order to create a gender neutral environment here, we must demand equity and NOT special favors. Misplaced Pages isn't the place for affirmative action for women to compensate for sexism in the real world, sexism that varies greatly from place to place. At best, we can serve as an example, and create a place whereby each person will be judged by the merits of their work, not the color of their skin, their religion, their nationality, nor their gender. If we give special privilege to any "minority", we are just saying "you aren't good enough on your own and need the white man's help". THAT is a slap in the face of anyone that has fought for equality. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
    • All of that is true. In fact I would go further. It is none of our business what someone else's sex, gender identification, religion, nationality, social class, or body shape is. Or whether they are presenting any of those as other than they are. (The WMF's real names policy is yet another way in which they go against the principles of the project.) My issue is with your statement about sticks and stones vs. words. I'm afraid you are in error when you generalize that. Thus it seems we are talking past each other, but someone needed to say it, even to you. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Didn't mean to talk past you, so much going on, it gets confusing. Women DO have very real and different threats in the real world, but this isn't the real world. We do have the opportunity to make it an equal world, however. What we have no ability to is force gender identification here (nor would we want to) nor treat women differently here, because that would be treating them as less than equal. On Misplaced Pages, words are just words, and yes, we should overlook little things and worry about big things. My comments are about here only, not the real world. Words obviously hurt, or offend, but not everyone and not equally. This is why it is impossible to police the use of them here. We can only police the actions behind them, ie: threats and the like. There are a number of words I just HATE because they are ugly and offend me, but many I have to tolerate if said in context due to WP:BIAS. We can't play thought police, you know that. So I wasn't trying to insult by oversimplifying, and if I did, I'm sorry. I can't say I know what it is like to be a woman, because I've never been one, although the most important people in my life are women. I can say that I will fight tooth and nail to maintain a level playing field, and stop people who try to diminish women by saying they can't compete or cooperate with men. And for the record, you are always welcome to correct me, bite my head off, whatever is appropriate, onwiki or email. Like in all things, I don't have the answers, I'm just sharing the struggle. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Yngvadottir - are you aware that we never cuss in Australia? Well, we certainly never use that word for anything we do here. So I cannot possibly know what is in your list of unacceptable "cuss words". That's but a trivial example of the cultural differences we face here. Did you know about it? Did you just assume that all English speakers would get your meaning with no difficulty? Your post is yet another example of Americans telling others how they must behave. Heard a British gentleman on the radio while coming to work just now observing that Australians speak their minds, and he likes it. Many of us do speak our minds. Must we change to whatever it is that Americans do, and/or want us to do? I certainly don't demand that you behave like me. HiLo48 (talk) 22:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
          • Please don't group all of us Americans together with the thought police. Yipes! Monty₈₄₅ 22:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. That's yet another issue associated with some editors telling others that there is the only acceptable culture on Misplaced Pages. It suppresses informative and intelligent discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 02:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• • • • • • HiLo, my apologies, but I selected US English for that post because it was to Dennis. I'm not very au fait with Aussie usage, but I was pretty sure you and the rest would intuit what I meant (although the first time I heard that use of "curse" I'm afraid I couldn't help laughing: "I never curse" - well, I'm sure the Powers will be glad you don't bother them with that, I thought ...) Yngvadottir (talk) 22:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of incivility towards women

Incivility among males is a way of establishing who is the alpha male and what is the pecking order, for males who are used to that behavioral mode and/or are absolutely determined to have their way editing, for personal or POV reasons. Incivility towards females is a way of making it clear that women only will be tolerated if they support the majority male view or are incredibly diplomatic and nice when disagreeing with males -- and are quick to back off if they are told they are wrong or too opinionated or %&$*$#&! aggressive.

As a female naive enough to use her real name when she first registered and then bold enough to go editing assertively in areas of interest to me that often happen to be controversial (Israel-Palestine, Libertarian/anarchist topics, hot political and economic news topics, transgenderism vs. gender critical radical feminism, etc.), one can imagine I’ve been the target of all sorts of incivility, personal attacks, exaggerated/trumped up/false allegations, and demands I stop editing articles because I was just too aggressive. (I.e., I didn’t run away the first time someone was uncivil to me??) And I’ve been to ANI lots of times as complainant and complained about. (OH, boy, I bet someone will type a thousand words on that! And I'll give them 2000 back!)

To me those who practice incivility against women (whether or not coarse terms are used) really are saying: “how dare you challenge my male authority and/or one up me and make me look like a fool in front of the other guys and/or just be smarter and cleverer than me and hurt my little ego.” And even though most of the guys editing here are under thirty and one would like to think are more “consciousness raised” than older generations of males, patriarchal attitudes remain. To too many guys, Misplaced Pages is supposed to remain a “male game” and annoying females who bust into male-dominated topics and don’t shut up when they are told will be tolerated only to a certain point.

Consciousness raising is the first step and this ANI conversation is an example (fish whack and all). (Plus a lot of us have learned things about past discussions we did not know.) Right now women hopefully are getting together a more assertive Gender gap task force, one of whose purposes will be to encourage women to complain about personal attacks at WP:ANI and to leave notes about their postings on the talk page in case other women feel the urge to opine. Getting more women willing to edit and then to speak out when they encounter problems they believe are based on their sex, as opposed to their actual editing and discussion, is part of the job we have to do.

I used to say that women have to demand a say in co-creating the world. But now I saw women just have to start RE-creating the world since males have made such a mess of it. And we also have to start Re-creating Misplaced Pages, working with willing male partners to bring their more backward brothers along into a happier and more civil world where consciousness triumphs over sexual stereotypes and habitual behaviors. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 06:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:TLDR. (And I say the same to males who post long-winded essays on Talk pages,) HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Hear, hear, Carol. I especially agree about speaking up. Why should people who value civil discourse - female or male - lower themselves to the behavior of those who choose to be coarse with each other, especially in what is supposed to be a collaborative working environment? And down with calling these boards "drama boards" when people bring issues here that others don't want to be discussed. That's clearly an attempt to intimidate. Thanks for speaking. Lightbreather (talk) 06:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It seems to me that some people find humor in the Seven dirty words monologue and some don't. On the one hand, don't be a you know what is a great rule for everyone, everywhere. On the other hand, censorship is not really the solution. In any case, raising the issue is good, but doesn't anything actionable really fall to WP:NPA? I'm unsure what 'problems' you are referring to that wouldn't be an personal attack. As to social change, if you mean change the collective dynamic through pointing out incivility and attacks that is great... but it seems you have in mind to change eveyone's attitudes, which seems damn hard (and contrary to our stated goals of building an encyclopedia.) Crazynas 07:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who has followed CMDC for a while will be aware of the campaigning, the desire to change the world etc and, frankly, the TLDR, right-on soapboxing across a vast number of talk pages. And, like here, you usually hijack a thread by creating a subsection to do it. CMDC, you have a cause and a great sense of righteousness but this is not the place to push it. That I think you are a pain in the ass has nothing to do with your gender and everything to do with your POV-pushing, soapboxing attitude, which would be better pursued off-wiki. Statements such as "But now I saw women just have to start RE-creating the world since males have made such a mess of it." really do not help anyone here. - Sitush (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• Carol, we're not talking about incivility towards women. Period. WP:NPA is a policy, and one that is enforced whether against men or women. If I say "User:Drmies is a tit", or "User:Drmies is as useless as tits on a bull", I'm personally attack Drmies, but am NOT attacking women (or the females of any species) as a gender. The assertion is that because someone randomly says "fuck" or some similar comment, that it prevents women from editing Misplaced Pages. The farcical side of that is that it in itself is sexist to suggest that women don't/can't also randomly say "fuck" or some similar comment. So, don't start mixing things up wrongly here - I'll all against NPA's, and I'm TOTALLY against racial/sexual NPA's, but let's compare apples to apples, not carrots. Nevertheless, this is NOT the right forum to do so, and you know it the panda ₯’ 11:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• My dear Panda, as much as I like being objectified (!) here as an example, I have to disagree. I'm reminded of that nice slogan: "You say bitch like it's a bad thing." I'm not going to argue the semantics of "tits on a bull", but I will say a. Mrs. Drmies doesn't like the word "tits" when it doesn't mean the bird and b. if you call me a tit and a tit is a bad thing, then clearly you're saying that one of the prime secondary characteristics (contradiction intended) is a bad thing. Drmies (talk) 14:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

"Period" as an interjection, putting a dot after words, is a North Americanism. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Bitch? As here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A Comment on Slang

Standard Written English is standard more or less across the Anglophone world except for orthography. We can all communicate with each other with little difficulty in standard written English. However, English slang varies greatly between Anglophone cultures. An extreme example, as noted above and below, is "cunt". Apparently, in some Anglophone cultures, it is not necessarily gender-related, and its offensiveness is context-dependent. In the United States, it is a deeply offensive term that is specific to a woman. Its spear counterpart is "dick". The only difference is that, in American English, "dick" is offensive, and "cunt" is deeply offensive. Because there are numerous examples where slang words or phrases have different meanings in different Anglophone cultures, I think that one part of the solution needs to be advice to avoid the use of slang phrases, even if not meant to be offensive, on article talk pages and Misplaced Pages talk pages. Article talk pages and Misplaced Pages talk pages are inherently both cross-gender and cross-cultural. Something to that effect should be added to the talk page guidelines. (User talk pages are not necessarily cross-cultural, because what is on them is typically one-on-one conversations.) Robert McClenon (talk) 13:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I am not discounting the presence of systemic gender bias, but a considerable amount of gender offense (and other offense) is unintended, the result of using slang English expressions that have different meanings in different varieties of English. It is often prudent to avoid slang and use Standard Written English. On the Internet, no one knows that you are in Britain or Australia or the United States. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

For that reason, by the way, there really is an argument for never swearing on the Internet. It doesn't have to do with being morally superior; it has to do with not being misunderstood. On the Internet, no one knows what the context of your swearing is. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The reality is, even if you avoid slang, it is always perfectly possible that what to you is an innocuous phrase, or a mildly offensive phrase, will be taken with extreme offence elsewhere in the English-speaking world.

How many Americans know that "fanny pack" is not an appropriate phrase to use in Britain? And it works the other way. A rubber is the implement you use to rub out your mistakes if you've been using a pencil. British children use the word all the time. It's completely standard English, not slangy at all.

Even big companies foul it up sometimes. Coca Cola had to withdraw Dasani from the British market completely after (among other things) they advertised it as "bottled spunk". In addition to the intended meaning, "spunk" is a slang word for semen in Britain. KFC got into trouble when it made an advert in Australia featuring an Australian cricket fan sharing its product with a group of West Indies cricket fans. Nobody batted an eyelid until the ad was posted online, was seen in the US, and the proverbial hit the fan. Kahastok talk 19:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Freedoms

Anyone who feels this site is too rude or too male-dominated has the freedom to leave, or the freedom to fork. The same as we all have. On the Internet nobody really knows your gender anyway, only what you say you are. Some of the rudest people I have met in real life have been women, and some of the most disruptive editors I have seen on here never swear. Where is this discussion actually going? --John (talk) 12:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

It is true that on the Internet, no one knows that you are a dog. It isn't true that on the Internet, no one knows your gender. Your gender can sometimes be inferred, if your username is or contains an English name. (It is true that user names can bend gender, but that isn't the usual rule.) That is just a comment thrown in, unrelated to my opinions on the subject at hand. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:14, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

"Are there any women here today?" Doc talk 12:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

"And what do you burn apart from witches?" Lightbreather (talk) 18:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(ec, yes, there is one) Amen to freedom. - Being a woman (at least so I say), I have naturally different real life experiences ;) - I so far didn't meet a "rude" and "disruptive" editor here to whom I couldn't talk. - When the term "disruptive" was applied to me first, I was proud ;) (mentioned somewhere on my talk or archive, - it wasn't important enough to remember) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I knew Gerda Arendt was a woman without her saying so. That is no different than thinking that CarolMooreDC ia a woman or that I am a man. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I have on many occasions been mistaken for a woman here, and on other online discussion places. It kinda makes me proud. I certainly don't see it as a problem. HiLo48 (talk) 12:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I would never have thought that HiLo48 was a woman, but that was based on inference, not on the gender of proper names. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

John, perhaps those of you who think the site doesn't need civility or women should be the ones to fork. Powers 12:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Your mind-reading powers are imperfect. This is neither what I said nor what I think. But thanks for giving us a brilliant example of rudeness (intentional or not) that was entirely free from swear words. --John (talk) 12:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I do believe this is somewhat an issue of localised slang. Robert McClenon used the term 'dog' in a harmless comment above; yet in my experience, I have been called a 'dog' in quite a derogatory manner. Moreover I have been sung at with Walking the Dog as I passed by a group of male students. This, for the unaware, signifies a quite unattractive woman. On the other hand, 'wench' is another colloquialism that is spoken frequently where I live, with no harmful intent at all. Fylbecatulous talk 14:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Respect - if this is not a value here, is it time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Misplaced Pages"?

The comments of Powers and John raise the possibility that it is time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Misplaced Pages". Any suggestions on the practical aspects of making this happen much appreciated.

"Real men treat women with dignity and give them the respect they deserve." -- Prince Harry -- Djembayz (talk) 12:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Stop deflecting and own up to your disruption of this debate.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate it as a rhetorical question born of frustration, but suffragettes didn't push for a separate countries and the Freedom Riders didn't say, If racists won't respect us, maybe it's time to to fork a new country. (And please, let's not get into a sidebar about Liberia or Soul City.) Of course, what we have to do is keep speaking up, even in the face of degradation and violence, real or spoken. It takes determination and time. Lightbreather (talk) 19:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Where's the "degradation and violence" of which you speak? Eric Corbett 23:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A Proposal to Avoid Misunderstanding

I have a proposal for how to avoid most misunderstandings, any gender double standards, and any national double standards or misunderstandings. It is to amend the talk page guidelines to strongly recommend the use of standard written English, which is standard across the Anglophone portions of the world, except for trivial, mostly orthographic, differences that do not result in misunderstanding. The words that result in the misunderstandings are not standard written English; they are slang. A talk page only appears to be a conversation in the usual sense, in spoken English. It is a form of written dialogue about an article or a policy. Conduct it in standard written English. See my post at WT:TPG concerning a planned RFC. Any comments on the content of the RFC before it is posted are welcome. Comments in support of or in opposition to the RFC may be provided after it is published. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Excellent idea. It should also apply to edit summaries. I would support that. Lightbreather (talk) 19:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Waste of space. You won't even get agreement on what constitutes SWE. And we should celebrate the rich tapestry of life and multiculturalism here, not sanitise it. - Sitush (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The minute you get an argument about which of "petrol" or "gasoline" is "standard", it's doomed. And it will happen. Ritchie333 19:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's never going to happen. But there probably be should more airing of the concept that just because you speak English it doesn't mean everyone's going to understand you. The C-word discussion earlier is a good example. The Americans assumed it was a gender slur. Eric Corbett says it doesn't mean that in Manchester so he doesn't care what Americans think it means (I oversimplify for effect). The point, I think, is if one is a "regular" on a multi-national multi-cultural projsct such as this, surely there is an expected obligation (a) as a talk page writer, to endeavour to use the English language, as best as one can, in a way that is not gratuitously offensive to other users of the language "globally" (b) as a talk page reader, to not assume without further investigation that your parochial interpretation is the only meaning that English-language users globally ascribe to any given text ....ok, dream on...DeCausa (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh great, we'll need "Vocabulary Police"... :) I can just imagine the Talk page template ({{dirtyrottenrudelousyperson}}), "You have been blocked for 24 hours for violated the language provisions of the Standard Written English policy for Talk pages. Your level of education (or lack thereof) and/or cultural differences are irrelevant, a fellow Wikipedian was offended by your behavior, even if it was unintentional, therefore you must be treated like a child that is throwing a temper tantrum." And then of course the associated WikiEssay, WP:Why its wrong for you to be you. I'm removing my tongue from my cheek now, end of snark. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 02:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Standard written English will only work some of the time and on some very general topics. As soon as any complexity exists, or specialised knowledge is claimed as essential to write on a topic, this idea is doomed. Massive heat was generated recently by some arguing at MH17 that the shooting down of a plane with a missile absolutely must be described as an accident, because that's how it's done within the aviation industry. I got bullied off that page by a POV pushing, Putin hating, Russian Admin, so I can't even be bothered looking to see how it ended up. Closer to this topic I've tried several times to point out that the word that is apparently ultra offensive to some American women can be part of a positive welcoming term among certain Australian males. Those offended American women persistently ignored my comments. (Is that not offensive?) I have my theories as to why, but writing them here won't help. The second sentence of Standard written English says "there is some disagreement about correct usage". Some? LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Equality

What bothers me most about all this is the special treatment being demanded. I've been blessed with a number of very strong women in my life, including my wife of 21 years. I was taught to respect women, respect the differences but treat as equals. The idea that we have to censor ourselves for a particular person is offensive, and against WP:THERAPY. We need more civility for men AND women, no doubt, but civility isn't about a cuss word, it is about how we treat each other, manipulate each other, threaten each other. Cuss words are meaningless, it is actions that are civil or incivil.

My mom is gone, but she would demand you don't look down on her by giving her special treatment, she wasn't some delicate little flower that needs coddling. She demanded equal treatment, which was rather new for her generation, being born in the 1930s. THAT is what I find so offensive, the very idea being forwarded here that women are so weak, so fragile, so inferior that the mere sight of a dirty word will give them the vapors, so we must censor ourselves around the lady folk because they can't handle it. My own mother would say "That is fucking crazy". She was a salty one who wouldn't take crap from anyone, and wise enough to know that if you demanded special treatment, you will never be treated as an equal.

You want to talk about civility, great, it is a valid topic, we can't block for it, but lets find ways to encourage more of it. You want to increasing censorship or create special rules for women? That is a non-starter and offensive to all the women that came before you. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yep. - Sitush (talk) 13:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Ditto. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 14:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

"It's actions that are civil and uncivil." Whatever that means -- on Misplaced Pages, it surely cannot mean words cannot be uncivil. Words are all we have. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. Speech is action. Lightbreather (talk) 00:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

As for the rest, it misses the issue: "I am offended" "Why are you offended?" "Because you used that word that way." "What does that word, matter?" "It's a common perjorative word used against women." "Oh, didn't know, sorry." Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It may be a "common perjorative (sic) word used against women" in some parts of the US, I wouldn't know and I don't much care, but it's certainly not used in that way where I live or in other English-speaking countries. In any case, I certainly have no intention of tailoring my language to conform to the lowest common denominator of Bible-bashing Americans. In addition I really do fail to see what any of this has to do with gender equality. People are routinely called dicks around here, and there's even an essay on it WP:DICK; someone should try writing the equivalent WP:CUNT if gender equality really is the goal, which I doubt. Eric Corbett 15:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

According to English dictionaries, it is commonly understood to relate to women's anatomy. The essay WP:Dick says don't use the essay to call people dicks, so if you want to follow the theory of the essay don't call people names. That's not a hard to understand in any country. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Seems to be too hard for you to understand. Who exactly called anyone any kind of name in the posting that started all this nonsense? Eric Corbett 22:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Equality means no double standards. I could list 50 comments

Has there been an instance where gender even came up to cause a disparity in treatment between two parties?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

People don't usually say, oh, it's that female editor XYZWoman, let's ignore her or badger her or insult her because she's not playing the game the way we guys like to play the game and we just want her to go away. If only it was that open. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

And perhaps only in your imagination? Eric Corbett 15:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course there haven't. Eric Corbett 15:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe it is against policy to post lists of bad things specific editors wrote unless it's part of a noticeboard thread, ANI complaint or Arbitration. Otherwise, Gender Gap, Feminist Wikiproject and individual user pages would be replete with such listings. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

How convenient. Eric Corbett 15:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

What has that got to do with the price of anything? Put up or shut up, Carol. Your chip is showing and, for the record, I'm somewhat dubious about certain elements of the Gender Gap Task Force which, I think, are there to serve soapboxers like yourself rather than resolve any systemic bias. A lot of this stuff seems to be in your head and might possibly say more about your own state than that of Misplaced Pages. - Sitush (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

So if there's no displayed disparity in treatment, why should it be acknowledged?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors are gender-neutral. Our RL genders should be put aside, the instant we enter upon this project. AFAIK, there's no English Misplaced Pages for women & English Misplaced Pages for men. GoodDay (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

• I can't put it better than Dennis, Ryulong and GoodDay. If the point of this discussion is that some people feel discriminated against for their self-volunteered online gender, yet are unable and unwilling to show any evidence of the discrimination, maybe we are done here. --John (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
• I'm tired of the biological essentialism. Women and men are not inherently different from each-other. Men want to be "alpha males", and put women in their place? What the hell kind of outdated nonsense is this? Some people are rude, pure and simple, and others are not. It has nothing to do with gender. This is a total obfuscation. As if men cannot be naturally starched and civil? As if women cannot naturally "swear like a fishwife"? There's a good phrase, for anyone buying into this biological essentialism, "swear like a fishwife". RGloucester — ☎ 17:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anyone asserting either biological essentialism (which usually is asserted by more patriarchal writers to say males should be dominant) or Social construction of gender difference which often is asserted by some feminists to say all differences are learned. I just see people saying - for whatever reason - don't insult me for my sex, don't insult me using sexual terms, don't use double standards of behavior against me you don't use against guys. Believe me, many of us women could use language that could curl your whatever into a what-cha-ma-calic but a) we think it's tacky and b) we'd get in far more trouble for saying less than a guy might. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I find bad language distasteful, anyway. I like to be a pure speaker, if one for the sake of preserving a pretty cadence in language. My concern is that you have conflated incivility with biological sex. Don't say that you haven't done, as you did above in a quite large piece about such nonsense. You fell victim to the same "essentialism" that has been used to subjugate women. I think it would be better to say that Misplaced Pages is an environment that favours those who can take "the heat", so-to-speak. Every insult possible to humanity is flung about on Misplaced Pages's pages, and if one doesn't have a stomach for it, or if one cannot take it in stride, one won't last very long. I don't think this is an issue of gender. In fact, it is a commonality of the internet in general. I'm not saying it is a good thing. I prefer a civil discourse. One can be quite sharp, even with civility, if one is intelligent. But that's neither here nor there. Gender is an irrelevance unless one or others makes it otherwise. This is especially true on the internet, where no one can tell what one's "gender" is unless one tells them. On that note, do not presume, as you have done, anything about my own gender. RGloucester — ☎ 18:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

But, Carol, you don't have any fucking proof that this is the case on Misplaced Pages. No evidence that you or anyone else in this thread who identifies as a woman has had any sort of trouble by what she has posted. That any woman on this website has received a harsher punishment for her behavior than any man. If there's no explicit problem with treatment of the genders on this website then there's nothing to fix. And this frankly has nothing to do with there being a dearth of women editors. Lightbringer's thread got waylayed when it all became about censorship and language policing.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:28, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to be baited into violating something which may be policy. So I've got a question in the first place that came to mind, of several places such things could be listed. (WP:Ani being one of them; the talk page of ANI probably not one. Plus I'd like to see a really good official Wikiproject list. (With lots of quotes from this thread, of course. ;-) ] Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't create a hitlist at a dodgy project. Just give some examples right here, right now: the context of the thread will exempt you from NPA, although maybe not from ridicule etc. - Sitush (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

How is it being baited when we are explicitly asking you for some god damn evidence to support your outrageous claims that women are allegedly given harsher punishments or are held up to a stricter standard of civility on this website?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yawn. CMDC, What tired, outdated 1970s/1980s twaddle. It sounds like you're stuck somewhere in your personal history while the Western World has moved on. DeCausa (talk) 19:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, hidden within the subtle soapboxing/canvassing, there are "hundreds" of extant examples and will be more. That is hundreds out of how many tens of thousands of edits per day? CMDC has misrepresented me in her comment in that diff and this is par for the course with her (noted at past ANI, ArbCom etc), so if/when any of these examples turn up it would pay people to check the context before jumping on her bandwagon. - Sitush (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

What the hell is going on here? This discussion has derailed and gone way off track.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A discussion of civility enforcement broke out. This is par for the course when it comes to such discussions. Monty₈₄₅ 20:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

*Bangs head against desk to the beat of "Everything is beautiful....in its own way"* *Wipes blood off desk and forehead...and returns to daily routine*!--Mark Miller (talk) 21:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

An observation: Discussions of civility enforcement usually occur not because someone was clearly uncivil, but because one or more editors are absolutely certain that their view of what is civil or not is the only possible view, and others disagree with THAT perspective. HiLo48 (talk) 23:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be such a demand for evidence that women are treated unfairly on Misplaced Pages, but I don’t want to get "in trouble" for listing diffs or naming names outside of an actual complaint. Since I realize not everyone reads about and discusses this issue with others several times a week, as a few dozen+ other editors do, here is a compromise: links to resources that cite more specifics. All of it and more are from Wikimedia.org Gender Gap project page.

• Gender Gap mailing list. Its archives are public. The first few months had a lot of explicit complaints which tapered off for reason you can read about if you read the last month or so of discussions. The list is rather strictly moderated to keep it civil and a safe place for women to post.
• Nine Reasons Women Don’t Edit Misplaced Pages (in their own words), Sue Gardner's Blog, February 19, 2011.
• Gender Gap? Look Up Misplaced Pages’s Contributor List, Noam Cohen in the New York Times, January 30, 2011.
• Where Are the Women in Misplaced Pages? Debate with a number of debaters, New York Times, February 2, 2011.
• Misplaced Pages Signpost Issue on Gender Gap, February 7, 2011.
  

The Wikimedia.org Gender Gap page needs updating. There have been several really good articles - including again more specifics - which have been listed at the Gender Gap email list which can be added to the project page.
Finally, rather than a list of diffs, it probably would be more compliant with Wikipolicy to do research on various Wikiquette requests and ANIs through the years by - or against - editors known to be female. A research project that could be done by volunteers. Listing those and the issues involved and resolution would not have the same problems as listing diffs of comments others found as problematic that were not take to WP:ANI. I already mentioned doing this to a woman being paid to do a research project for Wikimedia but she already had her agenda formed. So who knows, someone else may yet get a grant to do it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I think people were looking for specific diffs, not blogs, opinion pieces or articles that also make the same claims and point to questionable studies or just fail to substantiate their conclusions. Obviously there are sexists, racists and the like here, I know because I block them when I see them. Are there are diffs of actual systemic sexism here at Misplaced Pages? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Recently I was blocked for two weeks for a comment on ArbCom, even though I'd repeatedly sought clarification and was mislead by two Arbitrators into believing I could leave the comment. Finally, they convinced the Admin to lift the block. So you get me six Admins to approve my discussing specifics, and I'll think about it. Otherwise I feel like I'm in a double-bind, damned if I don't and damned if I do situation. But then that's one possible example of a double standard. In any case, I do intend to do an essay collecting various incidents which can safely be used and I'll report here when do it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

You were blocked for violating your topic ban were you not? What has that got to do with the matter at hand? You've been asked a very simple question, so what about a very simple reply for once, instead of all this obfuscating? Eric Corbett 02:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

RFC Closing Questions

First, if an RFC is closed, should it be deleted from the list of RFCs awaiting closure? I assume that is yes.

Second, if it is difficult to determine consensus, possibly because the RFC had few responses and did not have a proper Survey section, so that it is hard to tell what the !votes are, should this be noted in the closure, with a comment to the effect that a better-formed RFC can be opened if there is a desire to get better consensus? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

• When closing, the closer should pull the template, and the bot will automatically delist in time. If the RFC hasn't had much participation, it should be relisted. instead of closed, like we do AFDs. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

What template? Where are the instructions about the template? My question is whether the entry in WP:AN should be deleted. I don't think that is done by a bot. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe Dennis thought you were referring to the article talk page, so he is referring to the RfC template. Yes, the entry at AN is deleted and archived manually; the current archive is Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 13. For discussions I've closed, I place a {{done}} template and let someone else do the archiving, in case anyone wants to check my conclusions.

If it is difficult to determine consensus, I would say that this very much requires a case-by-case approach - though take this with a grain of salt, since I've only been doing closures for a few months now. I haven't seen any RfCs get relisted yet, but if you think the formulation of the RfC is an issue (which sounds like it might be the case in your example), I would let the editors start a new RfC with better wording or instructions, and might make recommendations on how to do that. I can usually determine editors' opinions even without a proper Survey section, but if I couldn't I would probably leave the close for someone more familiar with the topic. Sunrise (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The difference between AFD and RFC is of course that AFD asks one question: "Should article (Name) be deleted, with known alternatives such as Merge and Redirect. An RFC asks whatever question is asked by its author and is formatted by the author. If the RFC doesn't have Survey and Threaded Discussion questions, and the question isn't clear, then it may not be possible to determine consensus. There are other reasons why there may not be consensus. If the issue is whether to include criticisms of a politician, then the Oppose !votes are clear, but if different editors support entering different criticisms, there is no clear consensus. I had to close that one with a recommendation to post a new RFC for each different criticism. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually, AFD also asks "holy frick, can we fix this in 7 days so that it doesn't get deleted?" the panda ₯’ 22:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, AFDs are simple because they are mostly binary, delete or keep, with a few other options, and a vaguely understood criteria. I'm guessing a good minority of RFCs are worded so poorly, there is no hope of consensus. Either there is POV in the question being asked, they are asking for something that is kind of against policy, and even a few are trying to use RFC for what should be done at WP:DRN. Then again, the very open nature of an RFC means you can close one with a better solution than anyone thought of when it started, as people throw in new ideas and consensus moves around those new ideas. RFCs are a mixed bag. Also, my understanding is that once you close an RFC, you remove the small template inside the RFC and the bots take care of delisting at WP:AN and such. I mainly participate in RFCs, not close them. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Should WT:ANRFC redirect here?

WT:ANI redirects here. Shouldn't WT:ANRFC as well? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. Everything on that talk page for the entire history of it has been about the RFC side of AN/RFC, not the general AN side. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• No the panda ₯’ 23:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Mean as Custard

This guy has undone all my edits and given no reason for doing so. I feel that his may represent an act of discrimination as he chose to undo all my edits across a range of subjects and gave no reason for doing so other than he didn't like my username.Muddafuca (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't like your username either, so I've blocked your account. As MaC says, you need to fix the username, and you need to start providing sources. Acroterion (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press