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The Psychology of Words: Catchy Tabloid Titles
A successful WP article should have appropriate sequence, proportion of events and proper titles. But for now I want to point to the immature choice of some titles, with the example of the Raccoon Dog’s one. This is rather tabloid and not encyclopedic way of choosing titles. Cheap advertising depends on unexpected flashes and a sudden strange title: a Raccoon? And a Dog? Wow! And add to that a Monk! Wow wow! And what was the intent of this attractive title? It is at the end of the text: that since then the Gakkai was sealed as a violent organization: “this incident helped establish the organization's reputation as a violent cult.:705–711(A violent cult – just remember these words at the end of this post).
Editing which aims at stigmatizing and establishing identities for people and organisations - must be driven by personal agenda. WP should not come to this level. Lets ask a scholar on what she/he thinks about this Raccoon issue. They would perhaps say that the incident is just one of many events in the history of Soka under Toda. Being so, a meaningful title perhaps would be: “Toda and the Priesthood”, or something like that. Raccoon and Dog and a Monk and a Festival - and angry mob…such psychologically oriented words makes WP article go from sappboxing to a sensational sale advertising. This is not an attitude of an encyclopedic article.
There was also a justification of this Raccoon Section that the Gakkai wants to forget or avoid that incident - as for example the Catholic Church may want to avoid mention of the Inquisition. First, this is not true, members are proud of refuting supporters to war crimes within the priesthood. This should also be added to the text. But there is a serious matter here: Editors who make comparison - or even bring the name of the Inquisition – to associate in any implication whatsoever, with this Soka incident - are reminded here to understand that torture, and mass murder of thousands of people, even burning some alive by the Catholic Church, does not amount to Soka peaceful protest by youth to correct a monk who cooperated with the fascist authorities (and who was even happy in a latter stage with what happened). Again the personal religious or political beliefs of some editors– can affect the writing of this article and which makes its essence rather a farce.
Still on the titles: The title Pacifism comes a far way down and way far from the Intro which starts by defining the SGI by tabloid POVs: militaristic fascist quasi militaristic … The Intro was written to prime the mind of WP reader by repeated negative wording, and after that bombardment - then writers put Pacifism as a minor subtitle at the middle of the article (if the reader survives reading further). This is but a psychology trick to manipulate the mind of reader. Again, I may be mistaken but an independent scholar can give an opinion on priorities in article writing, because – speaking of Pacifism - Peace and Nonviolence are the very cause of SGI - which was intentionally designed to start in Guam, the island which suffered severe casualties during the World War.
SGI official birth in Guam was a statement of the start of “World Peace” instead of “World War”. The Section 'Pacifism' should proportionally to the facts - be prominent and at the start, and should also mention about SGI-USA movement VOV (Victory Over Violence) a factual activity of young people to stop violence in society (which was supported by independent local councils). These are facts that deserve also a presence and a title such as perhaps “Pacifism, NonViolence and World Peace”.
Returning here to the Raccon’s section ending with giving SG an Identity card: “ A Violent Cult” – there is Question here, directed to the intellect of reader, to wisdom and reason, and not emotions : Question: How would an implied militaristic fascist violent cult work for Peace, nonviolence and humanism? SGI is described in the INTRO as as a “militaristic organization” – then at the Raccoon area as a “Violent Cult” but in a later portion of the same article SGI works for peace and Nonviolence”. How can a “fascist manipulist militaristic quasi militarist Violent cult advocate Pacifism and humanism! Which of these 2 extremes had the priority in the Intro. The whole structure of the article is slowly falling apart. SafwanZabalawi (talk) 02:55, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? Mark Rogow 08/06/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I just realised now that the words fascist- militarists etc... were removed from the Intro. Nevertheless the Intro still does not mention the central essence of SGI - that of Pacifism and NonViolence as well as Humanism and WP (WorldPeace), but looks in the basket of "some cult - observers..." etc... so the essence of the above post is still valid and in particular to the Soapbox choice of sensational tabliod titles and the accusation of being a Violent Cult. So the Question which I posed would be: how would a meaningful WP article imply a Violent Cult is based on Pacifism and Nonviolence...- this is still avalid Question. The article is lacking consistency. Please focus on the article from encyclopaedic perspective, consistency and reason.
- after I sincerely presented few valid issues above on the disputed article, now I would continue my own studies - and rarely revisit this page. Lastly I want to say to the independent editors that I am concerned with the raised issues because WP is a truly humanistic concept of engaging ordinary people in editing about research subjects, and is very beneficial to people. WP and World Peace - have the same abbreviation: WP. Regards to all.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 03:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Wait Safwan. Don't go. You still haven't answered my question: By partnering with Mitsubishi Heavy Industrials? 2602:306:CD27:DB49:845F:E6B2:FE26:FB17 (talk) 05:41, 7 August 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow 08/06/2014
- I have started an ANI discussion about these last few headings. Shii (tock) 06:23, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Has this been resolved yet? --Margin1522 (talk) 23:24, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Dumping the Safe
The first citation for this section about an event in 1989 Yokohama, is to a history of the French revolution by Steven L. Kaplan, whose Misplaced Pages entry says "His primary fields of expertise are French history and the history of food, specifically the history of bread." The 2nd citation is to a July 1989 NY Times article, about which more in a second. The final footnote is to "Kokumin Seiji Nenkan, Nihon Shakaitō Kikanshikyoku. 1990. p. 1066". It's evidently available only in Japanese, but does seem to be preserved in the Hathi Trust Digital Library. I searched the 1990 edition for both "Soka Gakkai" and "Haruo Nakanishi" (the safe's owner) and came up empty both times.
That leaves the NYT article, quoted in the WP entry. The article says "The police seem to suspect that the money in the safe was part of a larger slush fund, stashed away for a needy political cause." Which was probably true on July 20, 1989, when the article was written.
However: on October 16th of that year, the Japan Economic Newswire reported that the police had been satisfied with Mr. Nakanishi's story -- "Police quoted Nakanishi as saying that he stored the money in a safe and kept it in a Seikyo Shimbun underground warehouse and forgot about it. Police checked up on Nakanishi’s claim in detail and decided to return the money, officials said. "
So 2 of the footnotes are questionable, and the third merely recounts "speculation" that was later found to be groundless. Now, I can just add "the accusations proved to be untrue" and cite the Japan Economic Newswire. But that seems a waste of space, saying, essentially, "The SG was accused of something it turned out to be innocent of". Or, "Nothing happened" So instead I intend to delete the section. I will wait a couple of days for discussion,if any. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daveler16 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The Hathi Digital Library doesn't support Japanese OCR. I have tried to use them to search Japanese books before and couldn't get any results for any terms. Shii (tock) 20:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had never heard of the Hathi Digital Library. What a great resource. Unfortunately I'm not affiliated with a university, so I can't view it. But I succeeded in searching it, as follows.
- 國民政治年鑑 1990 | Limited (search only) | Search inside the text | 中西治雄 = 73 Results
- Then it says "Full view is not available for this item due to copyright © restrictions. Page numbers with matches are displayed without text snippets due to these restrictions. Snippets may be available for some items if you log in."
- I also found some snippets in Google Books. Like this one. 7 月には、 1 * 7000 万円の現金入りの耐火金庫を放置していたのが、元聖教新聞社 専務理事の中西治雄氏だったことが判明し、参院選挙を前に、やはりイメ一ジダウンをもたらした。 Apparently this was a big deal before an election, if they are mentioning it that often.
- That said, no charges were ever filed, so I agree that we can file this under something that looked like an incident but wasn't. Under-the-table money goes to politicians all the time, and when there is proof they file charges. In this case, no money to politicians, no charges, nothing happened. So I agree that we could do without this section. --Margin1522 (talk) 23:39, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I had never heard of the Hathi Digital Library. What a great resource. Unfortunately I'm not affiliated with a university, so I can't view it. But I succeeded in searching it, as follows.
Did it. --Daveler16 (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I will support this change because this does not appear in major histories of the Gakkai. It was sourced primarily to minor sources, and although others can be found none are reliable sources about the Gakkai. The most relevant source I can find is a Japanese website akin to Operation Clambake, not reliable enough to establish the story as notable. Shii (tock) 03:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Public perception and criticism
I'm going to delete everything in this section, because it isn't true. To wit:
- "Television stations have a policy prohibiting mention of the link between Soka Gakai and Kōmeito"
- They talk about it all the time, especially around election time
- "major newspapers often print editorials attributed to Ikeda or report on Gakkai business"
- I have never seen an op-ed by Ikeda, or a report on Gakkai business
- "while overlooking news critical of the Gakkai."
- True, they don't print wild stories from the fever swamps of anti-Gakkai animosity, like "He's a drug smuggler", or "He's a despicable ethnic Korean", or "He's in control of Japanese politics".
- "According to one account in Shukan Shincho, Japanese news media cannot handle the social and economic pressure that the Gakkai poses."
- Conspiracy theory. You can't believe what you read in the mainstream media because they've all been bribed and are covering up the scandals. This is the bread and butter of the tabloid shukanshi, and there's nothing new about it or any particular reason why we should cite it.
In place of this stuff, I'm going to move to here some of the more colorful stories from earlier in the article, like Toda on his white horse. Those things did happen, and arguably contributed to public perception of SG.--Margin1522 (talk) 10:50, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- "I have never seen an op-ed by Ikeda, or a report on Gakkai business" It is easy enough to disprove your personal observations, here is an op-ed by Ikeda in an English language publication: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2011/06/28/commentary/world-commentary/the-courage-to-rebuild/
- "Conspiracy theory" -- In fact the article you are trying to pick apart is not a conspiracy theory, but won the annual Editors' Choice Magazine Journalism Award for its investigative journalism.
- " I'm going to move to here some of the more colorful stories from earlier in the article, like Toda on his white horse. " Why does this not belong in the history section? Shii (tock) 10:57, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- OK, I missed that one. I don't read the Japan Times. As evidence that Ikeda doesn't contribute frequent editorials, I will offer the uproar that ensued when for once he did, on March 1, 2009, in the Mainichi Shimbun. This was taken up in this famous thread on 2channel, that well-known hotbed of hate speech and rabid xenophobia. I'll translate. Ikeda's op-ed was an uplifting text entitled "The Power of Youth to Overcome This Crisis". Seems innocuous enough. The thread was entitled "(PERVERT) Mainichi Shimbun carries op-ed by Ideda Daisaku (CULT)". The guy who started it expresses outrage that Ideda be allowed to contribute an op-ed, and notes that "the Mainichi has been known to carry advertisements for SG publications and SG advocacy ads, but it is extremely rare for a newspaper to carry an op-ed by Ikeda."
- So I stand by my claim that Ikeda does not contributes op-eds "often". To say that he does is false.
- The assertion about TV stations is also false, as anyone who has ever watched their election coverage would know.
- About the article, OK. It won an award that the editors of the shukanshi get together to give themselves. Can we compromise? I'll let this piece of speculation stand if I can insert a note to inform our readers that attacking the credibility of mainstream newspapers is their bread and butter.
- As to why I want to move the white horse business, it's because of what I said at the beginning. We should move incidents and statements cited by critics and selected to express criticism into the criticism section, where it belongs. --Margin1522 (talk) 14:40, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- There is no policy that supports, let alone prescribes, editing in that manner. In other words, that is nothing more than your personal opinion, and it seems aimed at avoiding the presentation of incidents (that don't present SG as you would like them to be presented) in a meaningful, contextualized manner.
- The "Public perceptions and criticism" section is for meta-analysis and commentary on the movement by sociologists, politicians, whoever.
- Incidents that are of historical note involving the organization and its leaders should be integrated with the presentation of the material in the main body of the article.
- The blog site you to which you referred is not WP:RS incidentally, so the attempt to make recourse to that site in the context above is nothing but a diversion from the matter at hand. Regarding the frequency of his contributions of editorials, that is minor point that could be copyrighted, but clearly, he has occasionally submitted pieces for publication.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 16:29, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but the whole point of that paragraph is to argue that the mainstream media is biased in favor of SG, and I'm saying that's not true. If we say that Ikeda contributes op-eds occassionally, then what happens to the claim for bias? The argument is false. The mainstream media is not biased. Let's get this idea out of the article by deleting the whole paragraph. Because it's wrong.
- About the history, the section is entitled "Increased membership". Shouldn't we have a paragraph about increased membership? Where are the numbers? What does an objective history of the organization have to say about the growth of the SG during the 1950s? That's what we should be quoting. I can see how Toda sitting on his white horse and deploying extremist religious rhetoric may well have affected public perceptions of his group. I have trouble seeing how that increased membership. Did people join because they liked extremist rhetoric? Because they were forced to join? I suspect there may have been other reasons. What were they? --Margin1522 (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- If Sun Myung Moon had "occasionally" contributed op-eds to major American newspapers, would you have denied that this was a bias in favor of the Unification Church?
- "What does an objective history of the organization have to say about the growth of the SG during the 1950s?" We already have such an objective history in this article. The article explains how membership increased so quickly and gives specific examples. The article is already good and does not need to be degraded with a Criticism section. Shii (tock) 23:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Do I think a newpaper would be biased for printing one op-ed by Ikeda? No, of course not.--Margin1522 (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- The "Increased membership" section could certainly use some expansion linking his reactionary rhetoric to the marshaling of the troops, so to speak, coupled with a dumbing down and compartmentalization of the teachings in correspondence to the newly established hierarchy of the organization, for example. Toda was not, incidentally, speaking to the public, but to his followers, delivering a motivational speech.
- The perceptions section could also use exapnsion--as I've mentioned before here--but there is nothing wrong with the material in it now, unless there is consensus that the sources are being misrepresented or simply incorrect. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 01:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, "Increased membership" needs work. As it happens, my day job is professional editor. If a writer submitted this, I would hand it back and say it has no structure, no story. What are we trying to say with these anecdotes? What links them together? What I would suggest is the line taken by the several of our authors, namely that Toda's ambition during this period was to convert the entire nation and establish a theocracy. That would tie together the white horse and national altar. Apparently this all comes straight from Nichiren, so we could mention that. Conclude with the funeral, saying that he died before he could realize his ambition, but.... If something doesn't fit the story of the section, leave it out. And write the title after you write the story, not the other way around.--Margin1522 (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but the whole point of that paragraph is to argue that the mainstream media is biased in favor of SG, and I'm saying that's not true. If we say that Ikeda contributes op-eds occassionally, then what happens to the claim for bias? The argument is false. The mainstream media is not biased. Let's get this idea out of the article by deleting the whole paragraph. Because it's wrong.
Removed the "Leadership" section. besides having no citation whatsoever, it read like somebody's complaint about how an organization chooses to conduct its own business, and added nothing to an understanding of the subject.--Daveler16 (talk) 16:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed, there is no basis for such uncited claims Shii (tock) 21:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- Personally I think I would have added a {{Cite needed}} tag instead of just deleting it. Catflap has spent some time looking into this, and if there is no information that in itself tells us something. Non-democratic is one of the criteria for being a cult, and if we are going to discuss cultishness it's going to come up. I'd just rather keep working on it. --Margin1522 (talk) 00:35, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Lead paragraph, sect, NRM
I would like to add a sociological perspective to the opening sentence. It once read "sect" and now reads "movement." This downgrades the religious significance of the Soka Gakkai. In addition, the following sentence states it is "associated" with Nichiren Buddhism, which I think many would regard as a gross understatement.
I would like to suggest the addition of one sentence to the lead: "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Japanese lay Nichiren Buddhist movement with, according to its own account, 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world. It is one of the largest and most successful New Religious Movements in the world. As a lay group based on Nichiren Buddhism..."
The addition is based on several sociological works but especially one that I believe everyone should read: Lorne L. Dawson, "The Cultural Significance of New Religious Movements: The Case of Soka Gakkai," Sociology of Religion (2001) 62 (3): 337-364.(accessible at http://wwrn.org/articles/12196/?§ion=other-nrms).
I am trying to defang here what I regard as a dead-end discussion about to-be-or-not-to-be-a-sect. For example on June 21st Ubikwit stated, most categorically, "SGK is not a sect of Buddhism. It is classified as a 'Japanese New Religion' by some scholars, at most. Show me an academic source that describes them as a 'sect' of Buddhism." On July 11th s/he reiterated, "the Sokka (sic) Gakkai is not a sect, it is a lay movement," followed on July 21st with "....calling the Sokka (sic) Gakkai a "sect" of Buddhism would be a gross misrepresentation," August 2nd, "the fallacious assertion that SG is a "sect" of Buddhism" and August 3rd, "SG is not a "sect" of Buddhism, for example, not matter what they or their misinformed members try to tell the public about themselves. Can I make that any more clear?"
I find his/her statements very harsh. Of course we can look at his/her earlier statement: "In relation to Buddhism, my understanding of the use of sect in religious studies is used to refer to a group that formed in relation to either the adaptation of a new interpretation of a sacred text or focus on a form of practice by a prominent teacher, a new teaching by a teacher that has risen to prominence." From what I have gathered, the Soka Gakkai, it can be argued, meets these requirements.
Most sociologists find the "sect" discussion as value-laden. The use of words such as "sects" and "cults" is a huge problem from a sociological perspective because of their implicit values (e.g., "sect"=good, "cult"=bad). Largely as a result New Religious Movements (NRM) has become a major field in sociology. It has produced nuanced typologies to blunt tool nomenclatures such as cult or sect. Even the WP article on sect defines it as "a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group" which is largely descriptive of any NRM.
I believed my proposed edit sidesteps the "sect" debate. It leaves WP readers with a clear understanding that it is a religious movement, and part of a very profound post-modern realignment of religions which should be seen as part of the greater NRM phenomenon.
Please provide feedback to my suggestions. I will delay making any edits until there is feedback. FetullahFan (talk) 16:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry where is SGI a lay-movement? Most of them just like protestant Christian congregations can be identified with some sort of democratic input. "As a lay group based on Nichiren Buddhism..." where apart form the absence of priets is the lay -aspect identified? Who elects its leaders?? Especially as it likes to compare its self with Protestantism this would be a useful input. The term “new religious movement” is nothing to say it is a cult – it defines a certain time scale, but most cults in Japan also qualify for that. Is SGI a Buddhist School? A Shu? I am sorry but the Lutheran Congregation next door is more democratic locally that SGI internationally. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry, Catflap08, are you criticizing my suggestion here or criticizing the Soka Gakkai? "Where apart form the absence of priests is the lay-aspect identified?" you ask. Absence of priests equals a lay movement, it seems to me. I don't see anything else in between and I don't think anything else is required to meet this statement.
- I don't see the pertinence of the label "democratic" to my suggested edits. NRMs range the entire spectrum of democratic just as do more established religions movements. Some elect leaders, others don't. They remain NRMs nevertheless. I am trying to referee the "sect" vs. "movement" discussion by introducing the sociological lens of NRMs, nothing else.
- I do think that the discussion of democratic impulses in the Soka Gakkai, informed by discussions of research on democratic impulses in NRMs, would be a fascinating subsection in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FetullahFan (talk • contribs) 19:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry but the democratic issue has been brought in by the quotes. Again an absence of priest just does not fulfil a lay movement. Who elects the leaders? Lays? Who is in charge? Lays? Please provide proof for a lay movement? How is lay defined within SGI? What democratic aspects can be accounted for within SGI?? Please define the “lay” apart from the absence of priest are lays “dilettantes”? Please define the lay within lay movement and the decision making process of lays involved.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08: You're right that even the categorization as a "lay movement" or "lay organization" is somewhat problematic, I don't think we have a better vocabulary to describe SG/SGI. They started as a lay movement, but have grown into something hardly recognizable as such. Their attacks by SG on the Sangha practically makes them an enemy of all forms of Buddhism, and that is one reason they have been disowned by Nichiren Shoshu. That is also a reason why they are categorized as a "New religious movement" and not a sect of Buddhism. They incorporate aspects of Buddhist teachings, but they are not, technically speaking, Buddhists.
- @FetullahFan: I'm not surprised that you continue this line of argument despite the AN/I thread, but now you have also misrepresented a source that you yourself have presented in an attempt to advocate a false position.
- First, this is an erroneous assertion in the source you provided, as Buddhism and Shinto were strictly separated from the Meiji period under the Shinbutsu bunri policy
There may have been an attempt to merge all sects of Nichirenshu, but not to put them under control of Shinto....the military government of Japan sought to suppress the movement, arresting its leaders for their refusal to co-operate with the government's plans to merge all Nichiren sects and place them under the control of the imperial religion of state Shintoism
- Second, these statements clearly demonstrate that the author of the article, despite their somewhat lacking knowledge in relation to Japanese religion, considers SG to be a NRM, not a sect of Buddhism
Note that the article is not by a prominent scholar and I have shown that it has limitations, but it is useful to demonstrate support of a couple of points.Soka Gakkai's religious practices are based on the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222-1282), the prophetic founder of a sect of the Tendai school of Mahayana Buddhism, which itself was imported to Japan from China in the eighth century. Nichiren Shoshu is one of several sects that emerged from Nichiren's teachings. Like the other sects of Tendai, Nichiren taught that the true essence of Buddhism is revealed in the Lotus Sutra...As can be seen, the beliefs and practices of SGI differ quite sharply from other kinds of Buddhism, whether Theravadin, Mahayanist, Tibetan, Pure Land or Zen. In its practice SGI is more parsimonious, and its mode of salvation more immediate and accessible.
- One last point, you continue to refer to the Misplaced Pages article defining "sect" and ignoring the Misplaced Pages I've linked to above defining sects of Buddhism, in which Soka Gakkai is clearly identified as a "New Buddhist movement". The only intent apparently would be to seek to identify SG as a sect of Buddhism, representing a further instance of WP:IDHT.
- It should be noted that even in the old version of the article indicated by Margin1522 in the AN/I thread, SG was referred to as a "lay Buddhist movement" in the lead, not a sect. That was a more recent addition, in the past year sometime, apparently.
- --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 20:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
I will respond to Catflap08's comments on the relationship of the "lay" category/democracy and Ubikwit's comments on sects/NRMs in a followup post. For now I want to help improve your article in a practical way.
The lead paragraph as it currently stands has several problems: 1- redundancy--does the word "lay" need to appear twice in two succeeding paragraphs? Ditto "Nichiren Buddhism." 2- inconsistency within lead sentence--how can it be identified as a "Japanese" movement when members exist in 192 countries. 3- incorrect verb usage--"associated" just doesn't seem the right choice of words. Nichiren Buddhism, from what I gather, is comprised of many lineages and schools. In this context "associated" does not work. 4- vagueness-- "though it occasionally breaks with Nichiren tradition, especially on issues of priesthood." "Occasionally" is vague. What is the Nichiren tradition and who defines it? 5- syntax-- "issues of priesthood" is an awkward phrasing. 6- problems with subject/object agreement-- "the Soka Gakkai reveres" is incorrect; an organization cannot revere--that is something only people can do (not withstanding Citizens United). 7- translation problem-- someone should be able to resolve the Japanese transliteration (Japanese: 創価学会?). Why should there be a question mark?
May I suggest, sentence by sentence, the following: 1- "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Nichiren Buddhist movement, headquartered in Japan, with, according to its own account, 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world." 2- (Based on one of my previous suggestions and is designed to sidestep the "sect" controversy yet clearly indicate that this movement is religious in nature) "It is one of the largest and most successful New Religious Movements (NRM) in the world." (Ubikwit has objected to the Dawson citation but as I am familiarizing myself with the subject I am finding multiple other sources to support this statement by sociologists and religionists which I would be happy to supply). 3- "As a lay organization it breaks with other Nichiren lineages and schools where clergy play the central roles." 4- (Here I am trying to provide consistency with the Nichiren Buddhism article), "Members of the Soka Gakkai revere the Lotus Sutra and chant its title as their religious practice." FetullahFan (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, but you are still surreptitiously attempting to elevate SG to the status of other Nichiren "lineages and schools" (practically the same as saying it is a 'sect'), which it is not. It was started as a lay organization/movement that has grown into a New religious Movement; in other words, it is not accurate to say that it is a "Nichiren Buddhist movement", particularly in light of the fact that Nichiren Shoshu--with which it was formerly associated--has severed the connection/association with SG.
- The Nichiren Buddhism site defines its traditions, etc.
- SGI is the international movement, SG is Japanese.
- --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 19:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am working on a detailed response to the above comments . Thank you for inspiring me to undertake a new field of study. Please, can you find a better word than "surreptitiously"? It suggests that in some way I am part of a sinister plot which is untrue.
- Just a clarification, Ubikwit. Let me see if I understand you. At first you claim that the SG is not a sect. Just now you downgraded it, "it is not accurate to say that it is a 'Nichiren Buddhist movement.'" Of course on August 9th you cited "a link I've linked to above defining sects of Buddhism, in which Soka Gakkai is clearly identified as a "New Buddhist movement". This all seems nonsensical to me.
- Putting all this aside, I suggested several suggested improvements to the lead paragraph. Is there not one you are willing to consider? Not even removing the question mark after the transliteration of Soka Gakkai?
FetullahFan (talk) 22:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The people who practice a religion are never "the religion." The members of the SGI practice Nichiren Buddhism just as people in a Catholic church practice Catholicism. BTW, the section Ikeda 1960 requested more information and I posted a quote from a reliable source and it was removed. Why? Ltdan43 (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Please present a source to support every statement you make, as your statements are vague, and see WP:NOTFORUM.
- Formally speaking, SG members do not practice Nichiren Buddhism; they practice a Nichiren Buddhism-influenced new religion. The Nichiren sect has formally severed all ties to SG.
- What specifically are you referring to regarding a revert? Please try not to waste other editors' time.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 22:08, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am working on a detailed response to the above comments. Thank you for inspiring me to undertake a new field of study. One kindly request, however. Please, can you find a better word than "surreptitiously"? It suggests that in some way I am part of a sinister plot which is untrue.
- Just a clarification, Ubikwit, let me see if I understand you. At first you claim that the SG is not a sect. Just now you further downgraded it, claiming: "it is not accurate to say that it is a 'Nichiren Buddhist movement.'" (Of course on August 9th you cited "a link I've linked to above defining sects of Buddhism, in which Soka Gakkai is clearly identified as a "New Buddhist movement"), "an enemy of all forms of Buddhism," and "they are not, technically speaking, Buddhists" (August 9th). Is this the position you hold?
- Earlier you brought up WP:IDTH and AN/I accusations which may have been directed at me. Is it your intent to argue now that the SG should not be considered as Buddhist? Isn't this a WP:IDTH violation?
- Putting all this aside, I suggested several suggested improvements to the lead paragraph. You drew the distinction between the SG and the SGI, very helpful. Let me suggest a modification to my proposed first sentence: 1- "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Nichiren Buddhist movement, headquartered in Japan; its umbrella organization, the Soka Gakkai Internationsl (SGI) claims a membership of 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world." Please consider taking a look at the other revisions I suggested. Since it appears you are Japanese-speaking, can you take a look at removing the question mark after the transliteration of Soka Gakkai?
- @FetullahFan: I've already answered your questions, yet you repeat them with different phrasing. The fact that you are not a student of religious studies, and particularly of Buddhism and Japanese religion, might means you are somewhat lacking the competence necessary to edit this article.
- I've already provided a link to the English SGI website where they describe the history of the organization. Note that they describe themselves as a "lay Buddhist movement" here, and other history is found here, where they categorize themselves as a "network of lay Buddhists" as well as here. In short, even SG/SGI does not currently characterize itself as a "Nichiren Buddhist movement", and they would probably be sued for copyright violation or the like if they did, as there is an actual Buddhist sect started by Nichiren that is still extant and bears his name, and is a legal entity under the laws of Japan.
- The SGI webssite is a primary source. Apparently, you haven't even looked at that, but you persist in making proposals for editing the lead, ignoring what I've said or questioning it on the basis of some unsubstantiated rationale.
- SG has a long history. They did start as a lay movement associated with Nichiren Shoshu, then they were kicked out of Nichiren Shoshu, resulting in the Buddhist-influenced new religious movement they are today. Elsewhere on this page I've provided wikilinks to fundamental tenets of Buddhism (three jewels/sangha) that SG/SGI repudiates or violates.
- Catflap has reasonably questioned their characterization as a "lay group" at present. Their ties to Nichiren Shoshu have long since been severed, and SG has a completely unrelated organization and vastly different form of religious practice than Buddhists associated with Nichiren Buddhist temples. This is a slightly different point than Catflap's, I believe, but formalistically, you cannot be defined as a Buddhist "lay group" if you are not associated with a Buddhist temple, basically. SG simply tries to claim that it has done away with the "priesthood", but that is nothing but a form of hubris.
- At any rate, the article is to be written on what is said in RS published statements, not WP:OR.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 04:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- @FetullahFan I think a sociological approach might well bring some depth of analysis to this article, which it could use. If someone questions your competence to write about religion, you're entitled to ask how much they know about sociology. In any case, you don't need anyone's permission to edit the article. Nobody owns it (see Wp:OWN). I'd suggest that you develop your ideas in a separate section and add them to the lead when it's ready. --Margin1522 (talk) 05:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- Margin1522 Did you read the initial response I posted regarding the linked-to source? Note that I quoted a couple of passages from it.
- Let me remind you that there is a pending AN/I thread related to this article, and disruptive wall-of-text soapboxing, in particular. You mentioned that you are a "professional editor". That does not involve knowledge that is topic-specific to the content of this article.
- Incidentally, I have studied Max Weber, for example, and have a degree in the social sciences; furthermore, I'm fairly well versed in the field of Japanese religious studies.
- Please read WP:NOR. Anyone can edit the article; however, we don't edit based on our "own ideas", but on what reliably published sources say. I don't see where a single concrete edit to the main body of the article has been proposed or attempted on the basis of the linked-to source. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 05:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Well finally we are talking some definition issues. Again and again it has to be looked at who SGI’s members are. The number of “members” in most western countries is per country not more than a few dozen. This is due to its legal and formal structure SGI has decided to adapt and which is also legally the reason why it’s so called “members” have in effect no say in SGIs workings. To this effect when referring to the millions it would be reasonable to supplement the word member in the article with adherent or follower. This also partly answer the question – in a logical manner – why SGI lacks democratic structures. In other words only as a citizen of a country or with residential status one would be eligible to vote, but SGI-land has only a very small population. Having this in mind I find some of the so called sociological studies, also dashed out in SGI’s bookshops, to be somewhat problematic, as they look at active adherents, not members, and the exclusion of not so active adherents is not looked at at all. I also know for a fact the author of the German study had a strong affiliation to the group. So doing some background research on the authors might not be a bad idea. In the end publications and authors in “support” do tend to be either affiliated or financed by SGI, which I find to be quite problematic. So if an affiliation is known then it should be noted. Also I have never heard that the term "Nichiren Buddhist movement" is a protected term … at least not in the English language … I find the term “lay” to be far more problematic and confusing. The only term that would come to my mind would be “Shū” and a “Nichiren Shū” already exists. Also keeping in mind that the term “Shū” is mostly used to describe a School of thought in the traditional sense. On issues of ownership I completely agree nobody owns this article same goes for the soapbox issue though. At one stage the article read as if it was authored by the SGI PR department and we also do have some guideline on advertisement. I am an academic myself and although I would not like to see articles to be read like academic works Misplaced Pages’s guidelines generally reflect an academic approach. I remember once I tried to explain that to an adherent of the group which resulted that the editor lashed out against academics – so much for education in SGI’s goals.--Catflap08 (talk) 09:20, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08: The point I was making regarding the use of "Nichiren Buddhism" related primarily to the use on the SGI English webpage itself, because for them to use the term in their name or in a manner that drew a false association with Nichiren Buddhism would be a violation of the law even in the USA, for example, under copyright and trademark/unfair competition laws. There is a concept known as "free-riding" on a another entity's reputation which would come into play if they did so, more so since they have been officially excommunicated from Nichiren Buddhism. They can claim to have been influenced by the teachings of the man who is the namesake of the Nichiren sect, which is basically what they do on their website.
- Academics can use the term "Nichiren Buddhist movement" as a kind of descriptive shorthand. I don't have a great objection to that, but have revised the lead to more accurately depict the historic progression.
- Also, I don't know what your field is in academia, but SG leadership most definitely broke with--or attempted to undermine--the status of the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood by attempting to supplant the Buddhist sangha with their own organizational hierarchy. I will have to read the paper from 1992 on this topic, but even based on peripheral knowledge of the history of Buddhism, there is little room for doubt that such a nihilistic position masquerading as egalitarianism was the reason that first the leaders and then the entire movement were excommunicated.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 16:15, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- A Japanese lady still active in SGI once told me it was about money and power. Certainly no side would admit into that, surely also not the priesthood as they lost their steady income – certainly anything but poor even today. At any rate I agree that any attempt to make it look as if SGI broke away is simply wrong. It might well be that nearly 25 years afterwards some see it as liberation but for that SGI officials and its press organs where quite miffed well into the 21st century. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Ubikwit: The citation needed paragraph in the Ikeda 1960 section is not mine. Mine was correctly referenced. I was just wondering why the section requested more info and then deleted my attempt to post more info.Ltdan43 (talk) 21:28, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
SGI does have priests, in countries in which priests are both an integral part of the culture and highly esteemed, in Singapore and Ghana, for example.http://sokaspirit.org/world-tribune/what-about-what-are-the-reformist-priests-doing/2602:306:CD27:DB49:212C:59C:9794:A3EF (talk) 03:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC) Mark Rogow 08/13/2014
Lead paragraph
Let's go over again my proposals for the lead paragraph. They are largely syntactical in form. As an outsider I feel I can bring some accommodation and be of help.
1- "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?Italic text) is a movement based on Nichiren Buddhism, headquartered in Japan; its umbrella organization, the Soka Gakkai Internationsl (SGI) claims a membership of 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world."
Explanation: I am trying to get rid of the question mark after the kanji characters in the transliteration. I cannot understand why and how a question mark appeared here. In the phrase "movement based on Nichiren Buddhism"--I am trying to accommodate Ubikwit's objections. It is a movement and its publications and online presence defines itself as being based on Nichiren Buddhism. Whether it correctly interprets Nichiren Buddhism is a discussion that belongs in another subsection. Likewise, the issue of whether it is a sect of Buddhism can, should, and must be dealt with later, perhaps in a new section.
2- "It is one of the largest and most successful New Religious Movements (NRM) in the world."
Explanation: I feel this is an essential point. Ubikwit, for example, points out that a "lay group" must be affiliated with a temple. Against the backdrop of traditional religions, this makes sense. Against the backdrop of NRMs, this doesn't hold. Since NRMs are on a dramatic rise, associating the Soka Gakkai with this phenomenon is crucial.
3- "As a lay organization it breaks with Nichiren lineages and schools where priests play the central roles."
Explanation: I believe the wording of this sentence would satisfy Ubikwit who voiced concerns about "surreptitiously" placing SG on the same level as established Nichiren schools. It might not satisfy Catflap08 who insists that lay be associated with democratic (I am preparing a response to this point for another posting). But it is lay and WP readers deserve to read it upfront. By the way, the SG is not unique as a religious lay organization that is structured hierarchically. For example Mormons call their Church officers branch presidents, bishops, or stake presidents but they serve as laypersons, not as professionally trained and licensed clergy. Mormons refer to a priesthood but it consists of everyone (rather, all males) who voluntarily choose to be ordained. So it remains as a hierarchical lay organization.
4- "Members of the Soka Gakkai revere the Lotus Sutra and chant its title as the core of their religious practice."
Explanation: No one seems to have objected to this. It is simply an essential fact. FetullahFan (talk) 11:37, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- "It is one of the largest and most successful New Religious Movements (NRM) in the world."
- I thought Mormons are the fastest growing group next to evangelicals
- "As a lay organization it breaks with Nichiren lineages and schools where priests play the central roles."
- This is humbug by fact as it is neither the first nor not the only “lay” organisation within Nichiren Buddhism. Not even when looking at groups only that were affiliated with Nichiren Shoshu.
- The number 12 million is to be questioned as official Japanese numbers already show. So this number is only by its own accounts.
- --Catflap08 (talk) 12:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- IDK if it is "humbug" but it is definitely an inaccurate description of a "lay organization". Shii (tock) 12:42, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well even so it may be but the ones that play a central role in the organisation get into that position which is obscure and unaccounted for. So in fact one group of decision makers has been supplemented with another one. Most important though SGI never broke with a priesthood but was kicked by a priesthood --- small but important difference. And they were not the first to have been inflicted with that, they just publicised it widely. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- @FetullahFan: The fact that they are a NRM is factual, and can be expanded upon, but you should try to work that into the main body of the article, not focus on the lead. I have incorporated the term.
- A lot of the language you have proposed is peacocky and somewhat promotional, not encyclopedic.
- There is no need to introduce SGI in the lead, especially in a manner that conflates the two and includes the membership claimed (and disputed) in Japan under SGI, which is misleading and false.
- The "?" after the Japanese text in the title is standard formatting practice for the opening sentence of the lead, apparently. Check the code in the editing window.
- FYI, Nichiren was a Tendai monk that adopted a new focus, particularly on the Latter Day of the Law in his teachings, and incorporated the chanting of the name of the Lotus Sutra as a practice, in a manner similar to the adoption by Honen of the chanting of the nembutsu in the Pure Land sect during the Kamakura period.
- Nichiren's followers established the sect in his name after he'd passed away. It would probably be wise to refrain from trying to use proper nouns as descriptive terms. There is a lot of context involved, and statements have to be framed in a manner that accurately reflects the context.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 16:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
FetullahFan: those changes seem reasonable to me. If balance is what we're striving for, I don't really get the objections at all. --Daveler16 (talk) 16:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
@Shii: Please see this in relation to further discussion of the "lay movement" characterization.
--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 17:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
@Daveler16: The objections are some factual errors which is not what we are striving for. And even though No. 4 is not wrong it should be extended to the fact that the teachings of the three presidents are held in just as high esteem as the ones by Nichiren. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit, thank you for your revisions and for accommodating some of my concerns. The lead certainly reads much more smoothly now.
- Here are some feedback points.
- 1- I checked what you said about question marks in the transliteration and the convention does seem to be largely but not universally in place. For example Oomoto reads as follows, "Oomoto (大本 Ōmoto, literally "Great Source" or "Great Origin")." I actually think this convention is more useful than the "?". The SG article could read, "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会, literally 'Value Creation Society'"). This would be very helpful to readers like me who immediately want to know right away what the Japanese term means. (I don't remember reading this translation anywhere in the article itself, I had to find it in outside sources.)
- 2- I am afraid that you are going to unleash a stream of edit warring by introducing the terms "Buddhism-influenced" and "originally associated with Nichiren Buddhism" (with the insinuation that there is no longer an association). I know you have strong opinions about these matters. However there are millions of people who probably feel just as strongly that the SG merits the appellation of Buddhism, best represents Nichiren Buddhism, and perhaps is even the future of Buddhism as a whole. This war is going to descend into a citation food fight; it will be ugly---and a waste of time.
- Can we find a workaround? I am currently reading Hammond and Machacek's Soka Gakkai in America and they repeatedly use the term "Soka Gakkai Buddhism." This might satisfy the tight differentiation your want to draw between the SG and temple-based/traditional schools of Buddhism. I don't think that SG members would object either to Hammond and Machacek's term. May I suggest:
- "SG is a Japanese new religious movement which, according to its own account, has 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world and is generally considered to be one of the largest NRMs in the world. 'Soka Gakkai Buddhism' originated as an amalgam of the teachings of the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren, and Tsunesaburo Makiguchi's Philosophy of Value."
- (I'm a newbie at this but I think I got the religious sources and Makiguchi right.)
- 3- I think you should consider reintroducing the SG and SGI distinction. From what I gather the vast majority of members belong to the SG in Japan. Members around the world (I have seen the not so insignificant number of 2,000,000 tossed around) see themselves as members of the SGI or their country's organization, not the SG. From my readings I observe that they refer to Mr. Ikeda as "SGI President Ikeda" and not "SG Honorary President." I want to ask you, should this matter be saved for another time or tackled now? I know we are already stretching the length of a WP lead.
- 4- Can you find a better way to say that the SG "has broken with the Nichiren tradition in relation to the issues of monasticism and priesthood"? In the article Nichiren Buddhism "Nichiren tradition" is not defined through the lens of monasticism and priesthood. Perhaps its editors felt that this understanding is implicitly clear--but it is certainly not clear to outsiders like me. May I suggest:
- "As a lay group that was originally associated with the Nichiren Shoshu school of Buddhism, the Soka Gakkai members revere the Lotus Sutra and place the chanting of the name of the Sutra at the center of devotional practice. The Soka Gakkai disavows monasticism and regards its membership, rather than priests, as the Buddhist Sangha."
- Again, I am a new student of Nichiren Buddhism and I hope I got the Sangha thing right.
- FetullahFan (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, missed Catflap08's comment at 17:50. Based on his/her suggestion, the final sentence of #2 could perhaps be read as "'Soka Gakkai Buddhism' originated as an amalgam of the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren as interpreted by the movement's first three presidents." — Preceding unsigned comment added by FetullahFan (talk • contribs) 21:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Put back "revitalizing lives of its members". We had discussed it, it is backed up with citations, and it presages the article. Also changed "originally associated with Nichiren Buddhism" to "originally associated with Nichirten Shoshu Buddhism:, which is more specifically accurate.--Daveler16 (talk) 05:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
@Daveler16:I would suggest to read up on citations, quotation and paraphrases. The short sentence conatining the words „revitalizing the lives of its members“ is anything but neutral and is followed by SIX footnotes. If I were to write being a member of SGI has devastated many people’s lives you’d be up in arms if I would not be able to substantiate this remark. So to put in the proper quote would be the appropriate method. WP:CS , WP:QUOTE, WP:POV, WP:WTW , WP:WEASEL--Catflap08 (talk) 08:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
@FetullahFan: You said about yourself “new student of Nichiren Buddhism “. It might be a good idea to get to know some facts and issues on Buddhism in general and Nichiren Buddhism before editing issues that might need some more insight and knowledge. Generally one would expect editors to have a certain expertise in the area they are editing as yours might be Fethullah Gülen and the Gülen movement. Again you seem to confuse cause and effect here and also including a POV. So to say that SGI “disavows” is somewhat misleading in the sense that it looks as if it always took that stance – which is not the case. Since the priesthood kicked SGI out and SGI was miffed it had to change its teachings. I would also suggest to read up on the member versus adherent issue. --Catflap08 (talk) 08:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- {(edit conflict)@FetullahFan: You need to understand that anything you want to add to the article has to be supported by WP:RS. I don't have time to discuss the history of Japanese Buddhism here in depth, and this is not a page for doing that anyway.
- All Buddhism is defined by monasticism and the priesthood vis-a-vis the sangha. It is inseparable from Buddhism. What the Nichiren article says (or doesn't say) about that is irrelevant, primarily because it is a superordinate concept as one of the three jewels, and the material basis for Buddhist practice.
- Soka Gakkai is a new religious movement, not formalistically a Buddhist organization. The neologistic compound "Soka Gakkai Buddhism" is a misnomer when used out of context; that is to say, as a name instead of a descriptive modifier. I have just acquired a copy of "Global Citizens", and the subtitle on the cover is
The Soka Gakkai Buddhist movement in the World
- As you can see, it is used in a descriptive manner, not as a proper noun. I will comment further after having had a chance to look through the book a little.
- The statements you made above
are totally unacceptable because they are simply a promotional POV seeking to advocate some status for SG that it doesn't have and never will. This article is not about "opinions" but about a topic described on the basis of statements published in reliable sources. The opinions I've expressed are based on academic sources on Japanese Buddhism. I would imagine, incidentally, that people coming into contact with SG that continue to cultivate an interest in Buddhism will eventually read some English studies on Nichiren Buddhism, etc., and come to understand SG in context as a new religious movement that developed from a Nichiren lay organization. Nichiren Buddhism is itself a single school among several schools of Mahayana Buddhism that took shape in Japan during the Kamakura period.the terms "Buddhism-influenced" and "originally associated with Nichiren Buddhism" (with the insinuation that there is no longer an association). I know you have strong opinions about these matters. However there are millions of people who probably feel just as strongly that the SG merits the appellation of Buddhism, best represents Nichiren Buddhism, and perhaps is even the future of Buddhism as a whole.
- The suggestion of "Value Creation Society" is not necessarily accurate (as described above) and there are no reliable source citations for it. The "literal translation" proffered on the SGI website could be used in the article to explain the name, and that should probably be done conjunction with the "philosophy of value" you mentioned.
- Maybe SGI could have a separate article, but then material would have to be clearly limited to minimalize overlap.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 08:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Good morning, everyone! @Catflap08, I am a new student of Buddhism as well as a relatively new editor of WP. I am on a steep learning curve and enjoying it very much. I look forward to working with you and hope you come to see my sincerity and perspectives as being useful to this article. I feel impassioned about my work here because I see such interesting parallels between Hizmet and the SG, Gulen and Ikeda, and Nichiren and Rumi. I am sure my work here will culminate in an academic article. And please come and visit the Gulen Movement and Gulen Movement Schools pages. I am so lonely there, it is so much more fun here.
- @Daviler16, I agree with you about "put back 'revitalizing lives of its members'. We had discussed it, it is backed up with citations, and it presages the article." On Aug 6th @Shii wrote, "This is not something I usually see in articles about specific religious groups." Alas, I feel it should be--and perhaps this will be a trendsetter. Why not?--as long as there is proper citation.
- @Ubikwit, I have also just picked up Global Citizens and look forward to comparing notes with you. One thing I noted right away in the Wilson and Machacek opening article is "Perhaps the most notable feature of this Buddhist movement is a distinctive reform orientation" (p. 3). Perusing the Table of Contents I see articles like "A Buddhist Reformation in the 20th Century," "Immigrant Buddhists in America," "Socially Inclusive Buddhists in America," "Socially Inclusive Buddhists in America," "Buddhist HUmanism and Catholic Culture in Brazil," and "Buddhism n Action: Case Studies from Italy." At least among the scholars represented in this book, @Ubikwit, the SG is recognized as Buddhist, not Buddhism-inspired.
- FetullahFan (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
@FetullahFan: We are not here to set trends and even if they sometimes annoy us – we do have guidelines that this community has set for itself. It does therefore help to study the guidelines. Concerning the Gulen Movement I have enough controversial articles to work on – and one cult like organisation is enough to watch out for. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC) @FetullahFan: I will have to look at the book, but am decidedly not impressed with the "reformation" analogy, which the authors appear to be deriving from Protestantism. No serious student of Japanese Buddhism would give that any credence. Buddhism and Christianity are two very different religions, whether one thinks they are both humanistic or not. The fact that SG claims this or that about the priest-disciple relationship or the sangha, drawing on the history of Protestantism in Christianity, does not a religious doctrine make. It's specious, dubious ploy, the way I see it.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 17:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit:The ongoing problem to compare SGI to Protestantism is that the latter was an ongoing movement within the Christian world. SGI were miffed to be excluded by a sub-sect within Nichiren Buddhism, a sect not even mainstream Nichiren Buddhism. It boils down to spread far too much butter on one’s bread.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08: Yes, that's true.
- It's practically not even necessary to mention fundamental differences in doctrine, practice, objectives and organization between the church and the sangha with regard to SG. I noticed a statements on the SGI homepage about "authority" lying in the "original texts", etc., which struck me as an attempt to Protestant discourse related to the reading and interpreting of the bible on the part of the individual. That's why I responded to the suggestion of "reform" of Buddhism by SG. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 19:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- As a concession to pro-SGI perspectives I think we should leave in the references to "M. Bumann" etc., but possibly make them shorter. Shii (tock) 22:03, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Here is one source that uses "Buddhist-derived new religious movement" to describe Soka Gakkai.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 22:56, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Members vs. Adherents
I would like to underline the fact that the issue of members and adherents is quite important. SGI has managed to use certain legal loopholes. In Germany it operates as a so called “eingetragener Verein” and has legally a little less than seven members – same goes for the US and UK. Editors experts in such legal matters are welcomed to join to find references on that which are hard to come by being visible in the internet. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the section "Membership" can be re-written. There is one number for global membership, which is fine. But about the Japanese membership, it starts with a flat declarative sentence that there are 5.42 million. A sentence later it gives the SG's official total of 8.27 households, two estimates of 2.5 million people, and another estimate of 5 million (all in one sentence). I think mentioning just the SG's own count, and the contradictory Ministry of Education count would be sufficient, and certainly carry more weight than someone's guess - educated though the guess may be. Maybe mention "some authors estimate different numbers" with footnotes. But the way it's written now is confusing to read, and maybe a bit redundant. --Daveler16 (talk) 02:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- No the number is NOT fine the official LEGAL membership of SGI outside Japan might only be within thousands. In my books a member of an organisation is so with full rights anyone else is an adherent, a follower but not a legal member of SGI. The numbers are presumably based on individuals that received a gohonzon which does NOT make them legal members. The average individual “member” might go to meetings, buy the publications and visit courses and venues but is not legally a member. This is a very important issue that should be mentioned and that most so called “members” are not made aware of. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Kept all the citations. Wrote it to be easier to follow. --Daveler16 (talk) 00:11, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Removed "Leadership" again. This time there was a link to a pdf of Canada's by-laws or something. But it is still just a declaration of how someone thinks SG should conduct its own business, and adds nothing to any understanding of the topic beyond that. --Daveler16 (talk) 17:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- It typically describes how leaders are appointed. Do not delete referenced material. --Catflap08 (talk) 23:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- This source describes how SGI Canada appoints its directors. This may be notable information, but extrapolating to all of SGI is WP:OR. Shii (tock) 04:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The statement (which comprises the entire section) "The election or nomination of so called “leaders” is typically not decided by SGI’s adherents but by a Board of directors" is blatantly false - unless one defines "leaders" as one would a CEO. The leaders who are most active, and with whom most members (and non-members) interact are not "decided by a board of directors". How about saying something more accurate - e.g., national leaders, at least in Canada, are chosen by a board of directors"; and then I'll add some information about the volunteer positions that make up 99% of the SG leaders? Trying to work wiyth you here instead of a revert war. --Daveler16 (talk) 23:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Ikedaism
In a German Blog on Buddhism I learned the German offspring of SGI (SGI-D, with an official number of adherents of 6.000) seems to be dismantling. One reason given was the growing influence of what some call “Ikedaism” which turn large numbers away. Any reliable resources on that also internationally?--Catflap08 (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Buddhist or Buddhist-derived
@Ubikwit, I am appealing for you to change "Buddhist-derived" to "Buddhist" in the lead paragraph. I believe you acted unilaterally on the "Buddhist-derived" label. I believe this is an example of disruptive editing. You alone introduced this labeling of the SG as "Buddhist-derived." My apologies, but I do not remember seeing this term before either on the main page or the talk page. I can think of no greater downgrade to the Soka Gakkai's status than to reduce it from "Buddhist" to "Buddhist-derived"--and, no less, on the very lead sentence. This is unfair.
You stated on August 10th, "Formally speaking, SG members do not practice Nichiren Buddhism; they practice a Nichiren Buddhism-influenced new religion." This is a POV, not a fact. Certainly the citation you provided yesterday, the paper delivered by Leslie Kawamura in 1978, does not support your contention. Dr. Kawamura points to references of the 1960's and early 1970's to form his research. Distinguished as Dr. Kawamura was, let us be clear that we are discussing here 40-year-old research. In addition, your point about "Buddhist-derived" is drawn from a footnote, not the actual text.
The actual text leaves quite a different impression:
"We have seen that Sõka Gakkai, a representative type of the new religions, came into popularity in postwar Japan, a period marked by socio-political upheaval, and catered to the needs of the masses by identifying itself with the causes of the masses. But the reader will now notice that this paper contains some contradictions. First, it identified Sõka Gakkai as an integral entity of the Japanese Buddhist tradition, representing the bodhisattva doctrine, but at the same time it has criticized Soka Gakkai. This contradiction is inevitable, for the bodhisattva doctrine is the ‘ideal, not the ‘real. Soka Gakkai is a historically established religious institution, a sahgha, which like any other Buddhist institution is striving, through improvising skill-in-means, to realize the ideal bodhisattva principle" (p. 215).
This quotation not only identifies the SG as "an integral entity of the Japanese tradition" but also as "a historically established religious institution, a sahgha."
Since we are both reading "Global Citizens," in my next posting I will provide additional citations to cast light on "Buddhist-derived" vs. "Buddhist." I hope on the basis of this source we can develop a consensus to restore "Buddhist" to the lead. FetullahFan (talk) 11:13, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- @FetullahFan: It has been a couple of years since I read anything on new religions, but I have been studying the topic for years and am familiar with the terminology used to describe these groups.
- The phrasing "~-derived new religion" is a common parlance in the field of Japanese religious studies. Here are two references to its use with regard to Shinto.
- Regarding the passage you quoted from the Kawamura text, her ideas about SG being an integral part of Japanese Buddhist tradition met with criticism, and she added an addendum to the paper in response to questions she received on that, which starts on p.218. You will see on p.217 that she discusses the history of the development in Buddhist schools in Japan relating to the new not replacing the old, just building on the tradition. The problem with SG is that it is not, as she asserts, a "sanga", which she attempts to define abstractly in terms of a sociology of religion removed from the of history Buddhism and doctrine.
- I don't have time to go through that now, but the point here is that the descriptive use of "~-derived new religion" is the normal jargon used in academia to discuss these movements that started from the 19th century onward in Japan.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 12:09, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit: Thanks for asking me to look at the addendum of the article. I have come to the conclusion that Kawamura (BTW, Kawamura is a he, not a she) would strongly support "Soka Gakkai is a Japanese Buddhist new religious movement" rather than "a Japanese Buddhist-derived new religious movement." Here are some quotations from the addendum:
- "At the Conference, two questions were put to me. I wish to respond to these questions in the form of an addendum in this paper, because by doing so it would help clarify the reason why I consider the new religions to be an integral entity of the Japanese Buddhist tradition."
- Perhaps this quotation points a way out of the dilemma. The lead sentence could read, "Soka Gakkai is a derived from the Japanese Buddhist tradition." A few pages (215, 218) from the Kawamura article could be used as the citation for this statement. I think such wording would satisfy all points of view.
- I found p. 214 to be pertinent to our discussion. It appears that Japanese Buddhism is marked by the appearance of new religious movements, all of which are now considered as Buddhism. According to the author, the appearance of new religious movements was especially pronounced during the Kamakura era, by school-founders such as Nichiren, Shinran, and Dogen. The NRMs of the 20th century are very much following the same pattern. Ubikwit, since you are firm on drawing a line between traditional Buddhist sects and NRMs, you will have to wrestle with the issue of when a NRM is granted the appellation of being a Buddhist school. Is it the critierion the sustainability marked by the passing of decades? Is it the number of adherents? The SG probably qualifies on these two points.
- The Kawamura addendum is pertinent to the discussion of the "lay" status of the SG. Perhaps this requires its own section.
- FetullahFan (talk) 12:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's ludicrous, because it is the Kawamura paper that is cited for the terminology "Buddhist-derived new religion". Your conclusion is once again, WP:OR. Obviously not everyone in the field agrees with Kawamura's interpretation of sangha in Japanese Buddhism, thus the addendum. The addendum, however, is not related to "new religions" per se, and the analysis is somewhat faulty. Lay people are not necessarily excluded from the sangha, but they cannot constitute a sangha by themselves. New sects of Buddhism were developed in the Kamakura period, not "new religions".
- You do not have adequate competence to edit this article, and I suggest you cease and desist until you have done a substantial amount of reading.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 15:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Bundestag report
Catflap, that was a nice try, but I really doubt that Misplaced Pages readers need to know about this report. So if there are no objections, I'm going to delete that paragraph.
First off, you left some things out. The whole passage is as follows (sorry, in German, but when I try to copy from the English version (p. 201) the text is garbled):
Einige Gruppen haben national eine geringe Bedeutung und sind vor Ort nicht in schwerwiegende politische Konflikte verwickelt bzw. schwerwiegender öffentlicher Kritik ausgesetzt. Sie bleiben aber durch ihre Einbindung in eine internationale, anderenorts bedeutsame und konfliktbehaftete Organisation latent problematisch. Ein Beispiel dafür wurde bei der Anhörung von Soka Gakkai deutlich, einer in Deutschland eher unauffälligen Gruppe von hier ca. 3 000 Personen, die in Japan, den USA usw. jedoch ein hohes Gewicht hat. 234)
Note that you left out the part where it says that in 1998 SGI was relatively unknown, had only ca. 3000 members in Germany, had never been involved locally in any significant political controversy, and had not attracted any criticism. They call SGI not "problematic" but a "latent problem", and as evidence cite one book in English and squabbling over SGI on an AOL members forum.
The book is titled "An Unconventional Method for killing America." In fact, AFIK, this book has never been translated. The Japanese title is アメリカ殺しの超発想―「奴隷」日本よ、目を醒ませ!制度疲労をすぐ正せ! (An Unconventional Method for killing America. "Slave" Japan, Wake Up! Repair Systemic Fatigue Now!). It was by an economics professor who in the 1990s had a side line of writing cheap paperbacks in the Japan Strikes Back genre. Apparently they hadn't read the book, or realized that it was Japan that was going to be killing America, as a way to escape from its slavery.
I could go on, but it's pretty clear that this group of German legislators knew almost nothing about SGI. It's a pretty low-quality source, for anything except that conservative politicians are suspicious of new religious movements. --Margin1522 (talk) 20:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- I should have made it clear that I wasn't criticizing Catflap there. I had a little fun with the legislators, but this was a nice try. I've been looking for public opinion surveys or some other hard data myself, and so far coming up empty. --Margin1522 (talk) 11:50, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Well thats too bad the original is quite explicit underlining the problematic character nothing more is said. Also the footnote is worth reading - the wording is diplomatic.So it was anything but cleared as of being unproblematic and it’s one of the few cases that SGI was looked at on a highly official level and since it’s an international organisation here we go. Similar material can be found in France btw.. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
@Margin1522: The article itself explains why the word derived is appropriate … the organisations’ history shows why it is appropriate. The remark that this government paper makes is that even though in Germany the organisation is inconspicuous it does underline that internationally the organisation is involved in profound political conflicts and serious public debate. It also concludes that in the US and Japan the organisation is faced with statutory violation, violation of human rights and rightist extremist allegations. It also notes that sources and literature are mostly in Japanese. So in the end it states that the organisation was officially described as being latently problematic. Nothing else is stated in the sentence and this is a piece of information on the latest official stance on this organisation is within Germany. An organisation that operates internationally. --Catflap08 (talk) 09:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08:. One of the problems I've been having while trying to gather information about SG is that apparently it is a hate object on the racist, ultra-nationalist, right-wing fringe of Japanese politics. These people are hyperactive and are polluting the Internet with all manner of lies and slander. As I was trying to find information about that book with its ludicrous title, I found that it's mainly forgotten. But it lives on at the hate sites because of one passage, where it asserts that Ikeda funneled drug money from Noriega to Ichiro Ozawa, who is another hate object on the right-wing fringe. This is irresistible to these people -- we hate Ikeda, and we hate Ozawa, therefore Ikeda gave money to Ozawa. But is it true? As we have seen, the "evidence" for Ikeda's drug smuggling is extremely thin. Nor is there any evidence that Ikeda ever gave money to Ozawa's various political parties. Ozawa's finances have been exhaustively examined, and if it happened newspapers would have written about it. They haven't.
- So the fact that SG is "controversial" doesn't tell us a lot. Being slandered on the Internet is not a serious public debate. A decade ago, German politicians who knew very little about SGI quoted second-hand rumors from an AOL members forum about a dubious book that they had never seen, much less read. Does that kind of information belong in Misplaced Pages? And I have to say, I haven't made up my mind yet about Ikeda and SG, but looking at their enemies I can't help feeling that they must be doing something right. --Margin1522 (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- One more, the Dragan Todorovic article. So 17 years ago a Yugoslav essayist goes to a scientific conference in Toronto, and spends a month asking around about SGI, which he knows very little about. People send him faxes. Ikeda shook hands with Ozawa. Ikeda has been accused of rape. He makes a big deal out of this, but doesn't mention that the rape case was thrown out of court, with the judge stating that the allegation was the worst abuse of the judicial process that he had ever seen. So it's an old article by a poorly informed essayist who didn't check his facts. If no one objects, I'm going to delete this. --Margin1522 (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
If a source is 17 years or one year old is irrelevant. A 1998 source of the Washington Post was good enough again in another article:-). I am sorry but this has nothing to do about “slandering” (what a typical SGI terminology that is). If you do take time and read the whole article’s history within the last five or ten years you will realise the article was at times in a state as if it came straight out the SGI PR-department. A soon as some included some critical comments (not even by myself) the SGI faithful were out there for a full swing edit war. Attacking even the most renowned sources, even as going as far to attack editors with an academic background. Before you downgrade an official report and the conclusions it has made – Information on SGI were available even in 1997 and the problems it faced were similar to the ones today. AND all cults and groups mentioned in the report had to face the committee personally via its representatives – I know this because a) I speak German hence read the report b) because I at that time witnessed when the outcome of the report was delivered to the SGI-D faithful. So were that AOL stuff comes from no idea. The section reflects exactly what the report had to say on SGI. A report of a committee SGI had to stand up to. So if you are so knowledgeable as you seem to be about the report I wonder why you left out the fact in you latest edit that SGI had to speak in front of the committee. Also the Dragan Todorovic report is what it is a report an observation which readers are expected to have brains enough to read first hand and come to their own conclusionI wonder why it is that sources that support SGI’s view of itself are at a closer look in some ways affiliated to SGI – even some sociological papers?? Which at a even closer look at times turn out to be a dissertation of some sort by an SGI adherent. I know that secondary and tertiary sources to support SGI’s view of itself are hard to come by but that does not make secondary and tertiary sources that DO NOT support SGI’s view of itself inaccurate. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, yes, but I read German too, and I even quoted the relevant paragraph. It's true that SGI had to testify before a closed-door meeting of the committee. But we don't know what was said there. Presumably they were satisfied with what they heard, because the paragraph quoted above said that SGI had not caused any trouble in Germany. As to where the AOL stuff came from, didn't you read footnote 234? That's the only place where they mention any evidence. This seemed really odd to me. I mean they are the German government. If they wanted to know whether SGI had committed crimes in the US, why didn't they ask the FBI? Why rely on statements in an AOL members forum?
- Anyway, my opinion is that this report is old and unreliable, and that we should just delete it. If you insist on keeping it, then at least we should have an accurate summary of what it actually says. I contend that my summary is better. But as I said earlier, I'm not going to get involved in edit wars with you. If you insist that my version can't appear in the article, then we will have to take it to dispute resolution. --Margin1522 (talk) 22:49, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Maybe that is hard to swallow for you … the report lists sources and footnotes you may like them or not. SGI had to face the committee as all other groups and cults had to. The result is this Government paper which comes to the conclusion that SGI is problematic. 1998 is not 1898 or 1798 I have no idea what the year 1998 has to do with it while you add references to articles which are even older than that. The only conclusion I can come up with that you do not like this being mentioned and in that case there are guideline on censorship too. Even the paper itself does not say that SGI IS fascist, that it oversteps legal boundaries but it says by keeping all things in mind – especially in respect to the Japanese mother organisation – it remains problematic. Compared to other cults investigated this is quite a smooth outcome. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08: Note your assumption here, that SGI is a cult. This is one reason why some people find this article offensive, and what some of us are trying to correct. You guys are perfectly free to argue in the article that SGI is a cult. Just define what you mean by "cult" and show that it applies to SGI. But you haven't done that, despite repeated requests. So until you do, I think it's best that we stop using the word cult, especially in the lead. Without the argument it's just name calling.
- What I find especially dubious about this cite is that it works through guilt by association. The Budestag investigated cults, SGI was investigated, therefore SGI is a cult. But I contend that the report didn't say that.
- A couple of other factual errors. SGI didn't "have to" appear before the committee. It was "invited" (eingeladen, p. 15) to appear. Unlike some of the other groups, it accepted and testified (p. 15). SGI wasn't labeled "problematic", it was "potentially problematic" (latent problematisch, p. 105). These are important distinctions that your version glossed over.
- About the sources, it's not that I don't like all sources that put SGI in a bad light. It's that this is seriously low quality stuff. We wouldn't allow an editor to cite mudslinging on an AOL forum. Why should we allow through the back door, just because the Bundestag allowed it?
- So, I guess we're not going to agree on this. I'll look into how a start a dispute resolution. I've never done this before so it may take a while. --Margin1522 (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have asked for a third opinion, as that seems to be lowest level type of dispute resolution.
- For anyone arriving to look at this, here is where I deleted this cite on the grounds that it's too old and unreliable (see Talk), and here is where Catflap08 reverted my deletion. Here is where Catflap08 reverted my edited version of the description and restored his version.
- So this is a simple question. Which version is better? Or would it be better to simply delete this cite? --Margin1522 (talk) 02:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have asked for a third opinion, as that seems to be lowest level type of dispute resolution.
- Third opinion: The Bundestag entry is not really a source dealing with Sokaa-Gakkis but uses them as an example for low profile foreign cults which nevertheless desrve some attention. Margin1522 version is better in covering the content, but nearly as long as the complete relevant section in the source. Forget it, erase it. If you would start to involve German sources, look for better ones. I had a look on the EKD Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen data base entry. It has a good online base about all sorts of cults and refers to further sources including an online doctorate in buddhism studies published 2000 about the interaction of Sôka gakkai und Kômeitô and the political cloud. Serten (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- So it's OK to go ahead and delete this? Thanks, I guess I will ahead and do that.
- But I think this may be one of my last edits to this article. Over the past few weeks I've made 50 comments on the Talk page, with little discernible effect on the article. Of my surviving contributions, one is now in a tone that is hardly what I intended. But, I guess you can't complain about that. Through this experience I have seen a side of Misplaced Pages that I barely knew existed. So that was interesting. But after considering it, I don't think I have the time or inclination to get involved in that side of things. So now may be the time to move on and go back to editing smaller and less contentious articles. I may make one more try on Makiguchi's educational theories. If it's incomplete, hopefully someone else can pick it up and complete it. --Margin1522 (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- So it's OK to go ahead and delete this? Thanks, I guess I will ahead and do that.
Categories in the See also section
I see that a new editor added the "Members of Sōka Gakkai" category to the See also section, and that it got deleted almost immediately. The way he did that was apparently to create a redirect page to the category, and then add the redirect page. I'm pretty sure that this is not the right thing to do, but it's not clear that categories can't be added to See also. This was discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Layout/Archive_7#See also include links to categories?, and there wasn't a consensus. Some people feel that in some cases it's OK.
What should we do about this? There was some useful information in there (e.g. I didn't know that Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter are members). I think the normal thing to do would be to convert the redirect page into a list article and put THAT into See also. I'd do it myself, but I'm kind of busy right now. --Margin1522 (talk) 06:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Under the "Beliefs and Practices" Section it said "For further information" with links to the entries for "Nichiren Buddhism" and "Nichiren Shoshu". I understand the "Nichiren Buddhism" link. But it is mentioned many times in many parts of the article (too many, I think) that the SG started as a lay organization within Shoshu,and it's certainly not necessary to define SG's "beliefs and practices" through the lens of someone else's "beliefs and practices", or even to compare them.
For the same reason, there is no point in including Taisekiji's ""Guide to refuting other schools"" in the "Books" section at the end of the article. I think the aqppropriate place for including what Nichiren Shoshu believes and practices is the entry for Nichiren Shoshu.--Daveler16 (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well I guess the “Guide to refuting other schools” is mentioned in the section that is about the split i.e. when SGI was kicked out. That’s exactly where it belongs to or as a reference to those who want to hear the other side. What’s the problem??? Or in other words why should the information be withheld? Why should Nichiren Buddhism and Nichiren Shoshu not be mentioned??? At one time some complain that its not mentioned as a traditional school then some complain its not mentioned in a wider perspective. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Lede Sentence
@Ubikwit, you are an esteemed editor who has worked tirelessly on many fronts to improve WP. But in the case of using the term “Buddhist-derived” in the lede sentence of the Soka Gakkai article you are swimming against the current of scholarship.
According to H. Byron Earhart (The new religions of Japan : a bibliography of western-language materials) the notion of “~-derived” stemmed from “a practice adopted by the Ministry of Education (now the Ministry of Education, Science and Culture) in grouping New Religions according to the major tradition from which they derived: Shinto-derived, Buddhist-derived, Christian-derived, and ‘Other Religions.’" (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cjs/aba2512.0001.001/--new-religions-of-japan-a-bibliography-of-western-language?rgn=main;view=fulltext).
Should WP readers be forced to make a judgment about the SG through the lens of a Japanese government system of categorization? This is counterproductive. The first impression that they will inevitably draw from the lede as currently written is that the SG is not really Buddhist but only “Buddhist-derived.” 99.9% of readers are unaware of the backdrop of the Japanese Ministry of Education and a few scholars who rely on its systems.
This is a grave disservice to our readers especially since scholars have been either ignoring or abandoning this system of categorization. In the second edition of his book Earhart himself abandoned this pattern of grouping by derivation and simply listed new religions by the alphabetical order of their names.
@Ubikwit, the only citation you provided in the SG talk page to justify the “~-derived” concept is a footnote in Leslie Kawamura’s book “The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhism” (p. 228) which was a collection of papers given at a 1978 academic conference at the University of Calgary. On the basis of a footnote you state, “the descriptive use of ‘~-derived new religion’ is the normal jargon used in academia to discuss these movements that started from the 19th century onward in Japan.” Without a convincing number of citations to support this statement, this categorization should be removed from the lede sentence and reserved for a new subsection.
The term “Buddhist-derived” certainly does not appear anywhere else in the SG article whereas direct SG references to Buddhist or Buddhism appear at least 7 times in the article, and 12 times in the bibliographic references. @Shii has been adamant in the past about removing content in the lede that is not supported in the rest of the article.
@Ubikwit, you sidestepped my August 14th post on the talk page where I point out that in the very text of the Kawamura book we find the central thesis that the Japanese new religions are “an integral entity of the Japanese Buddhist tradition” and “Soka Gakkai is a historically established religious institution, a sangha, which like any other Buddhist institution is striving, through improvising skill-in-means, to realize the ideal bodhisattva principle" (p. 215). Instead of considering my citation you ignored my references from the text of the book, calling my posting “ludricrous” on the basis of an obscure footnote. You then demanded that I “cease and desist” making entries.
You certainly have more credentials on WP than I based on your long history of contributions on many articles. But in this case I have to question some of your actions. It appears that you went on a one-man campaign to introduce the concept of “`-derived” (a few days earlier “~-influenced) into Misplaced Pages. On August 12 you applied the term to the article on the Soka Gakkai. On August 13th you changed the Sangha article by injecting “Buddhist-derived” to a reference about the SG. The same day you introduced “Buddhist-derived’ to an article about the Kenshokai. You struck again on August 16th to introduce the term “Shinto-derived” to the article on Tenrikyo. This strikes me as Orwellian. FetullahFan (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- I do not want to be accused of writing walls of words so I listed many additional citations to support my contention that the SG should be identified as Buddhist, not "Buddhist-derived," on my Sandbox page (https://en.wikipedia.org/User:FetullahFan/sandbox).
- I have done extensive reading on this matter and the citations I listed are just the tip of the iceberg. I included citations from scholars as well as tertiary sources such as respected encyclopedia which go through an intensive editorial vetting. I even included a newspaper article from the NYT which is ostensibly critical of the SG; regardless, the headline refers to the SG as a sect.
- Rather than me citing sources ad nauseum, I challenge those who prefer the current "Buddhist-derived" appellation to find citations, preferably from the 21st century, that identify the SG in this manner. It's important for readers to see which interpretation is a river and which is a stream.
- FetullahFan (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The "derived" line is horribly misleading, if not just plain wrong. I'd first point out that the very first citation in the article is to a book called "Soka Gakkai: From Lay Movement to Religion"; and the subtitle of one of the most frequently cited books is "Daisaku Ikeda, Soka Gakkai, and the Globalization of Buddhist Humanism" - not "lay movement to religion-derived", not "Buddhist-derived humanism". I suppose with a little effort other references throughout the article could be found that make the same point - Soka Gakkai is a religion, and, in fact, a Buddhist religion. Plus, it's members engage in the practice prescribed by Nichiren, in exactly the same way as other Nichiren sects, and the organization was the first to publish a comprehensive collection of Nichiren's writings, the first to translate same extensively, to say nothing of the numerous books and articles it publishes on the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren. I will soon be adding things to the body of the article that I hope will make this point implicitly. --Daveler16 (talk) 15:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not going to discuss general issues here, but you should bear in mind that you are both nearly totally uninformed on this topic, whereas I have studies the field for years, and Catflap80 is an academic working on this subject matter.
- For now, I'm just going to list another academic reference or two (accessible on google books) that refers to SG as a "Buddhist-derived new religion"
--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 18:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Luckily, since we are an encylopedia, we don't have to decide which of these expressions is right and which is wrong. We quote sources that refer to SG as a Buddhist sect, a Buddhist lay movement, a new religion, a Buddhist new religion, and a "Buddhist-derived" new religion. If someone wants to write a paragraph to sort this out, that would be useful. In that paragraph, instead of assembling random quotes, we should select passages where the authors discuss why they chose that term. For example, perhaps they were discussing new religions in general and wanted to distinguish between those that arose out of Shinto and those that arose out of Buddhism. In that context, "Buddhist-derived" would make sense. In other contexts it might not.
- What we shouldn't do is imply that SG isn't Buddhist, because that is highly offensive to members of the faith. If there's a dispute over the nature of "true Buddhism", we can explain what the dispute is about. But we can't take one side or the other. That's what NPOV means. --Margin1522 (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Luckily, since we are an encylopedia, we don't have to decide which of these expressions is right and which is wrong. We quote sources that refer to SG as a Buddhist sect, a Buddhist lay movement, a new religion, a Buddhist new religion, and a "Buddhist-derived" new religion. If someone wants to write a paragraph to sort this out, that would be useful. In that paragraph, instead of assembling random quotes, we should select passages where the authors discuss why they chose that term. For example, perhaps they were discussing new religions in general and wanted to distinguish between those that arose out of Shinto and those that arose out of Buddhism. In that context, "Buddhist-derived" would make sense. In other contexts it might not.
The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school. As there is no council on who is Buddhist and who is not the discussion is somewhat useless. Some regard the Bodhisattva vow as kind of creed that unifies most Mahayana Buddhists (also practised by other Nichiren Buddhists). The reason why some would say SGI is today only remotely Buddhist is due to the fact it introduced teachings that are not Buddhist and which some regard as indication of a leader cult. Also the weight given to Buddhist liturgy has lessened in the last few years. It also has not contributed in any major ways to the field of Buddhist Studies. The vehemence and aggressiveness in which SGI attacked its former parent school was unseen in todays Buddhism. So in a way it marginalised itself within the Buddhist world. It’s not the first New Religion to be Nichiren inspired – it is however not a traditional Buddhist school – it’s an organisation with a religious practise with a strong emphasis given to its presidents.--Catflap08 (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- OK, Catflap, then you can write the paragaph about the dispute over whether "SGI is today only remotely Buddhist". Please cite the views on all sides of this question, with sources. That's what NPOV means.
- In the meantime, I see you reverted my deletion of the word "derived" from the first sentence. Let me explain. I deleted it not because it is right or wrong, but because the lead is a summary of the article and the article doesn't use the word "derived" and doesn't explain what it means. If someone writes a paragraph to explain what it means, then perhaps we can put it back. But as of now, we can't use it in the lead. So I am going to delete it again.
- In all my years of editing at Misplaced Pages, I think this is the first time I have ever reverted an edit because of a disagreement over content. Except that I am not disagreeing over content. I am saying that the word doesn't belong in the lead. If you want to put it in the article, go ahead. And if you revert me again, that enough. I'm not going to fight about this. We can take it to dispute resolution. --Margin1522 (talk) 22:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- OK, Catflap, then you can write the paragaph about the dispute over whether "SGI is today only remotely Buddhist". Please cite the views on all sides of this question, with sources. That's what NPOV means.
- @Margin1522: The relevant context here is that this is an encyclopedia, not a forum to provide representation for adherents to the movement that is the subject of the article. Categorically speaking, as indicated by scholars to whom there is no other way to describe the groups status in terms of its historically place in the milieu of Japanese religions.
- The relevant point of NPOV here is WP:DUE. The notion that SG is anything other than a Buddhist-derived new religious movement is a minority opinion. One of the editors commenting here tried to dismiss the classification as a new religion as some ploy by the Japanese government's Ministry of Education, when their statements are also a reliable source on this matter. Moreover, it demonstrates that most of the pro-SG pov editors here are not students of Japanese religion and history. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 10:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, Margin1522, for eliminating "Buddhist-derived" from the lede and replacing it with the original "Buddhist" designation. Yes, there is no support for this term in any other part of the SG article.
- @Catflap08, your concern about consensus is noted. However Ubikwit did not try to reach consensus when he inserted, quite unilaterally and unannounced, the designation "~-derived" into the SG article as well as several other articles (see my post above). Where was the consensus-building then?
- @Ubikwit, you provided two sources which you found on Google Books to support your "Buddhist-derived" contention. The Hardacre book, from what I can gather, is basically exploring the abortion issue through the lens of Buddhist schools. "Buddhist-derived" is a mention, not an exploration and explanation. You then cited Earhart but, as I noted in a prior post, Earhart himself abandoned this classification. In my sandbox I listed 14 citations that support the prior view that the SG should be described as Buddhist. Since we are both reading Global Citizens, I am going to add here some illustrative quotes in which authors clearly express the sentiment of "Buddhist" and not just a tepid "Buddhist-derived."
- “In just half a century, the Soka Gakkai has become a world religion.” (Phillip E. Hammond, Global Citizens, p. v)
- “Such self-determination can be confusing and alienating, but Soka Gakkai Buddhism teaches that it need not be so. The religion prescribes a ritual response to troublesome areas in one’s life that serves to focus attention on the possible responses and potential outcomes, turning problems into opportunities.” (Bryan Wilson, David Machacek, Global Citizens, p. 5)
- “World-reforming religions such as the Soka Gakkai are, in a sense, inherently anti-establishment, viewing change with much greater optimism.” (Bryan Wilson, David Machacek, Global Citizens, p. 6)
- “Soka Gakkai may reasonably be regarded as a unique contemporary form of Buddhism in the broader sense. (p.16)....“Buddhist movements may be subdivided, depending on the proportion of constitutive elements in their doctrine and practice into semitraditonal; syncretistic Buddhist; and intermediate type. Soka Gakkai belongs to the semitraditional Buddhist type.” (Nariyoshi Tamaru, Global Citizens, p. 29)
- Perhaps there is a gap between scholarship in Japan and that which is available to English readers. It would be helpful then if you were to write an academic article about this topic and submit it to an English language peer-referenced journal for review and publication. An article such as this could become an important source of citations in WP.
- Why do I care so much about this matter? There are consequences downstream when someone restricts the passage of water upstream. The carnage of religious minorities today in Iraq and Syria by ISIL can be traced to Wahhabi and Salafi adherents who attempted to define pure vs. heretical strands of Islam. The matter of "Buddhist" or "Buddhist-derived" might seem innocuous and scholarly at this point--but can lead to devastating consequences in decades ahead.
- FetullahFan (talk) 11:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- You do not need to defend your concern, this does make all the difference in characterizing SGI. But have some sympathy with Ubikwit. Look closer at what you are quoting: not Buddhism itself, but "Soka Gakkai Buddhism", or "Buddhism in the broader sense". Both authors are actually in agreement with the idea that Soka Gakkai is not mainstream Buddhism but an NRM. Personally I would opt for neither "Buddhist" nor "Buddhist-derived" but some compromise between the two, for example "a modern, semitraditional form of Buddhism". Shii (tock) 13:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Shii, you are absolutely right. I do respect Ubikwit's scholarship and his long-standing contributions to WP which I see evident on many fronts. I will try to moderate myself. I will also try to suggest some alternative wording which can accommodate the two viewpoints.
- FetullahFan (talk) 15:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- You do not need to defend your concern, this does make all the difference in characterizing SGI. But have some sympathy with Ubikwit. Look closer at what you are quoting: not Buddhism itself, but "Soka Gakkai Buddhism", or "Buddhism in the broader sense". Both authors are actually in agreement with the idea that Soka Gakkai is not mainstream Buddhism but an NRM. Personally I would opt for neither "Buddhist" nor "Buddhist-derived" but some compromise between the two, for example "a modern, semitraditional form of Buddhism". Shii (tock) 13:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm OK with something like Shii's suggestion. As an alternative, there is also this: "A modern lay Buddhist movement". New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2003, via User:FetullahFan/sandbox. It has the 3 key concepts modern, lay, and movement. It's Buddhist in the wide sense, but qualified: modern (a synonym for non-traditional), lay (which will tell Western readers that this is something different, because normally when they think of Buddhism they think of monks), and movement, which means it's not a school or a sect. I think this comes fairly close to satisfying everyone. --Margin1522 (talk) 23:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- @FetullahFan: I thought that I answered some of the questions--particularly in relation to Kawamura and the snagha--but don't have time to dwell on that now. I don't see why people are so obsessed with seizing the mantle of Buddhism in the Soka Gakkai, including their supports among Western academics. Nonetheless, WP:DUE as I mentioned above, is the guiding policy.
- I will point out that although Earlhart dropped the organizational schema, he still has to resort to the categorization in describing material listed in the 2nd edition.
"Buddhismus im modernen Japan."... A general description of the historical development of Buddhism in Japan, followed by brief treatment of Buddhist-derived New Religions.
- Note that I don't have time to read the "Global Citizens" book, either, but did read the piece by Hurst. She practically admits that she is an adherent of Soka Gakkai, so while there is some useful information in that piece, particularly regarding organization/membership (which seems to be at issue presently here), most of what she has must be attributed if it is useful at all due to her obvious COI.
- I did also acquire a copy of the 1966 edition of the Kitagawa book, and want to post the relevant passages below for people to assess, because I don't have time to work on the article.
| Excerpt from Kitagawa (1966), pp. 327-331, 339 |
|---|
|
1) "The bottom line is that SGI does not even describes itself as a Buddhist school." Just examining one SGI publication, we see that they chose to call it "Living Buddhism"; that it devotes 14 of its 63 pages to studying a small portion of a writing of Nichiren; that another study article begins "President Ikeda discusses the core teaching of Nichiren Buddhism..."; and that the first two pages of the magazine are kind of a FAQ and the answer to the question "What is the SGI?" begins "Our lay Buddhist organization. That's one quick glance through one small magazine. Can we stop pretending SGI doesn't call itself a Buddhist school?
2)"The relevant context here is that this is an encyclopedia, not a forum to provide representation for adherents to the movement that is the subject of the article". Nor, I hope, is it a forum for other sects whose teachings contradict the subjects, or for portraying the subject in the least flattering light. It seems to me that Margin and Fetullah Fan are arguing for balance, and others are arguing for refutation. What I see here is not one extreme against the other - it's one extreme against the middle. --Daveler16 (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubiqwit: Thank you for posting that excerpt from Kitagawa. I collapsed it to make the thread easier to follow, but it's worth reading. We still don't have a volunteer to write the paragraph to explain what "Buddhist-derived" means, so for now I am going to support adding "modern", as I explained above. Maybe we can return to this later.
- About the Kitagawa excerpt, one passage that puzzled me was the one about the "ethnocentric, messianic motif" in SG. Messianic perhaps, but ethnocentric? Maybe the book is showing its age. --Margin1522 (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the book was written before SGI was founded, which is one of the things that makes judging its accuracy difficult.
- Can I suggest an alternative opening sentence? It also fixes the clumsy wording of the membership figure, which may belong at the end of the first paragraph anyway.
- "Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Japanese new religious movement grounded in a semitraditional form of Nichiren Buddhism. According to its own account, it has 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world."
- If you can think of a better linking word than “grounded in”, I’m all ears. Shii (tock) 00:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- We could say "informed by the xxx of Nichiren Buddhism". This is usually said about artists (Google "my work is informed by"), but we could use it (Google "religious * informed by"). --Margin1522 (talk) 02:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- I volunteer to give it a try....in the morning! — Preceding unsigned comment added by FetullahFan (talk • contribs) 02:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have already done so. I think the wording "Originally a lay group of Nichiren Shōshū" is a bit clumsy, but the rest of this new first paragraph should be an improvement. Shii (tock) 03:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
@Daveler16:SGI does not describe itself a Buddhist SCHOOL!!! Is that so hard to understand? It is not a „Shu“, never said it is, never said it wants to be. An if you are unable to understand that read upon what a school in Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism especially means. One can not fight and attack traditional forms of Buddhism attack its structures and definitions, but use its definitions when it come in handy. SGI does not even do that and they surely know why, so why do you? --Catflap08 (talk) 09:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Reflections on Lede paragraph
First of all, I appreciate Shii’s edit of the lede paragraph. I think it accommodates everyone’s concerns. Secondly, as a new editor, I am so impressed by the WP process. After a very rancorous discussion we pulled together as a team and came up with a very balanced product. I hadn’t anticipated that such a great accomplishment would be achieved.
My only concern is the word “semitraditional” in the lede sentence. It does not come up very much in WP except in rather obscure articles such as “British nuclear tests in Maralinga,” “2008 Rosebowl,” or “Music of Tonga.” Although it successfully conveys the essence of our extended discussion, I am not quite sure WP readers will grasp it.
May I share the description of the SG reached by Richard H. Seager? “The SG is best understood as a liberal and modernist religious movement, one marked by the self-conscious attempt to adapt Buddhism to the contemporary world. All three presidents of the SG have made unique contributions to this liberal modernism, each in dialogue with a distinct phase of the development of modern Japan, as it moved from self-imposed exile in the mid-nineteenth century to post-war globalization.” (p. xiv).
To solve the lack of clarity in “semitraditional” I would suggest incorporating some of Seager's words into the lede sentence: “The Soka Gakkai is a Japanese new religious movement that has adapted the teachings of Nichiren to the contemporary world.” The rest of the paragraph IMHO stands perfectly. 74.101.191.18 (talk) 09:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- You have raised a good point about the word "semitraditional". I think it is an accurate descriptor (used in a reliable source above) but it may not be the best word. The problem with your proposed replacement is that it attributes success to the Gakkai's teachings. As we can't ask Nichiren whether Soka Gakkai has adapted his teachings correctly, this is a metaphysical matter beyond the reach of Misplaced Pages. Shii (tock) 12:03, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, thank you for your patient and wise leadership. In the unvirtual world we would all owe you a drink.
- I agree, we should neither attribute success or failure to their teachings. I hadn't attempted to imply success but I perhaps should make the language clearer. "The Soka Gakkai is a Japanese new religious movement which bases itself on the the teachings of Nichiren as interpreted by its three founding presidents."
- FetullahFan (talk) 12:32, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- That sounds pretty good! Your wording helpfully avoids the term Nichiren Buddhism which I am concerned is a neologism (the equivalent term in Japanese is "Hokke-shu" and also covers Tendai). Let's wait a little while to hear any objections, then we can go ahead and implement it. Shii (tock) 15:03, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think it is very good at all, because it is more verbose than the present wording and equally as awkward, for one, and it is questionable in terms of its facticity about the "three president". The Soka Gakkai doctrine is heavily indebted to Nichiren Shoshu, and that has nothing to do with the presidents of Soka Gakkai, so the issue is confused from the opening sentence; moreover, it's misleading.
- Also, it's common practice to place the name of the sect before "Buddhism" in English, such as "Pure Land Buddhism", ""Zen Buddhism", etc. Here is a link to google search results, 451,000 hits.
- I think that the sentence can be improved, but the proposed version doesn't sound appealing. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 16:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry the term „semitraditional“ is humbug to say the least. The term is misleading in many ways. While FetullahFan is a devouted memeber oft he Gülen movement and Daveler16’s niece is involved with SGI it does not automatically make them knowledgeable on Nichiren and Nichiren Buddhism. There are certain parameters to which all major lineages of Mahayana Buddhism adhere including the position and veneration of Shakyamuni Buddha – this is also true for Nichiren Buddhism. The grand exception within those traditional forms within TRADITIONAL forms of Nichiren Buddhism is Nichiren Shoshu who place less emphasis on Shakyamuni but on Nichiren. So Nichiren Shoshu are somewhat a minority lineage even within Nichiren Buddhism per se and so are its offshoots which SGI is one of. There is no authority to decide on what is traditional or what is not but the general consensus in literature would refer to monastic traditions and core elements such as the Bodhisattva vow and the three treasures as a guideline. Some Nichiren traditionalists would extend that to the copying of the Lotus Sutra and Mantra as further core elements as prescribed by Nichiren. SGI’s leaders are not known to undergo any Buddhist training may it be in the traditional sense of monastic tradition nor in the modern sense of Buddhist Studies. Nobody in their right mind would therefore attest or attribute traditional or even “sem-traditional” ways to SGI – not even SGI does. This a battle that even within literature is not fought. SGI is Nichiren buddhist inspired, derived, based or what have you, but its neither traditional nor “semitraditional”. Its an organisation that extended Nichiren’s teachings to its own teachings. Even Buddhist liturgy is kept to a bare minimum within daily practice and the teachings of Ikeda are held in greater esteem than those of Nichiren or the Buddha. I have therefore edited the introduction to “originally based on the teachings of Nichiren” as SGI itself distances itself from traditional Buddhism and has also included aspects within its teachings that are neither traditional Buddhist nor traditional Nichiren Buddhist. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- The term "semitraditional" came from a reliable source stated above (Ctrl+F). What source are you basing your claim on? Shii (tock) 19:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Catflap08: "the teachings of Ikeda are held in greater esteem than those of Nichiren or the Buddha." You keep saying that. Shouldn't that be in the article, with a source? FWIW, here is SGI's official definition of itself: "The Soka Gakkai International (SGI) is a worldwide network of lay Buddhists dedicated to a common vision of a better world through the empowerment of the individual and the promotion of peace, culture and education." The latter part of that definition is roughly equivalent to "progressive humanism". Is this what you are referring to as "the teachings of Ikeda"? I don't think anyone is denying that progressive humanism has always been a large part of SG. Are you saying that this is a departure from or incompatible with Buddhism? --Margin1522 (talk) 03:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- The term "semitraditional" came from a reliable source stated above (Ctrl+F). What source are you basing your claim on? Shii (tock) 19:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Can I suggest the following?
"Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a lay Japanese new religious movement founded in 1930 by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda. The Soka Gakkai claims a membership of 12 million people in 192 countries and territories around the world. It derives its worldview from the writings of the 13th century Buddhist monk Nichiren and the organization’s three founding presidents. Its religious views were also shaped by its past relationship with the Nichiren Shoshu sect.
The organization had grown to a size of about 3000 households before World War II when much of its leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté. The membership base grew rapidly in the three decades after the war through an explosive yet controversial proselytization campaign. It is now one of the larger Japanese new religions. The movement is publicly involved in peace activism, education and politics. The Soka Gakkai has also been at the center of controversies.
- Explanation: I think this accommodates many viewpoints. I believe so much of our conversation has been whether SG is or is not part of Buddhist schools or traditional or semi-traditional teachings. This conversation is trying to define the SG by outside criteria. Is it really, really, really necessary?
- Out of curiosity I visited its NY center bookstore yesterday and its well-stocked shelves are filled up with the writings of Nichiren or commentaries. It cannot be said that it was "originally" based on Nichiren when there is currently so much emphasis. Yet the influence of Makiguchi, Toda, and especially Ikeda are strongly represented on shelves as well. I bought several books but am not qualified to determine whether these gentlemen explain, amplify, or digress from Nichiren's teachings. Let's at least give them presence in the lede because the movement is so clearly influenced by them. Thus I think I am hearing the concerns of Ubikwit and Catflap08.
- I suggest eliminating the "revere the Lotus Sutra" section because from what I could see from my bookstore visit it oversimplifies the practice of the group's members. They, rather than we outsiders, need to have more voice in expressing what their own practice is. I don't sense that SG editors will object to this deletion in the lede.
- FetullahFan (talk) 03:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've read this but don't have any special comment at the moment, other than to point out that SG did not have a "past relationship" with Shoshu, it was a movement within Shoshu. For the purposes of achieving conesnsus I think this may hang on what Ubikwit has to say. Shii (tock) 03:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments. I look forward to Ubikwit's response. I am anxious to achieve consensus quickly because I want to address two more points in the latter part of the lede before the new semester starts and I go into work overdrive. At that point you won't see me lurking here for several months mist likely. It's been fun.
- BTW, @Shii, from what I read in sources, the SG's relationship with NS is more complex than what you expressed. It was not a case of the SG being born within NS and then expanding outward. Rather it was born from Makiguchi's long history of scholarship and then attached itself to NS. I thought at first this might be revisionist but as I am reading Human Revolution, Ikeda's account of the early years of the movement published decades before the split, I find a consistent thread here. Everyone, please hold your fire on responding to this because I don't want this topic to distract from our work at hand.
- FetullahFan (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've read this but don't have any special comment at the moment, other than to point out that SG did not have a "past relationship" with Shoshu, it was a movement within Shoshu. For the purposes of achieving conesnsus I think this may hang on what Ubikwit has to say. Shii (tock) 03:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
@Margin1522: I can not bring into the article facts that are not yet supported by outside views – like some do with AOL sources. I can however mention in the talk page what people report to me still engaged in what is SGI. It would still need Japanese speakers to do this which I am not. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Soka U. of America
I expanded this section so it tells more about the school than that it has problems with environmentalists. Added some current rankings, and a short list of academic topics.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- You did not only expand but you also deleted. --Catflap08 (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Don't worry, Catflap, your sources haven't been discarded. I spent some time recently updating the SUA article, and while doing that I copied your sources over to it, where they improved the new section on the campus. This took some time -- I checked all the links, fixed the dead ones, updated the data, deleted various crufties that had accumulated over the years, and reorganized the content. The new section on the campus focuses (as it should) on the current campus. But it also explains the environmental dispute in detail, which is where your sources were helpful. Thank you.
- But as to whether we need to mention the old campus in this article, I don't think so. If there is one thing that every university in the world has in common, it is disputes with the neighbors over real estate. Instead of that, we should focus on what makes it different. Having spent all this time getting SUA article into shape, I was hoping that we could make better use of it in this article. For example, talk about the campus and about categories where SUA ranks #1 or #2 in the US, like percentage of internation students and percentage of students who study abroad. So I'm planning to do that when I get some time. This will involve deleting the material on the environmental dispute from this article. I am definitely opposed to cherry picking incidents from the university's history in order to make it look bad. --Margin1522 (talk) 23:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Don't worry, Catflap, your sources haven't been discarded. I spent some time recently updating the SUA article, and while doing that I copied your sources over to it, where they improved the new section on the campus. This took some time -- I checked all the links, fixed the dead ones, updated the data, deleted various crufties that had accumulated over the years, and reorganized the content. The new section on the campus focuses (as it should) on the current campus. But it also explains the environmental dispute in detail, which is where your sources were helpful. Thank you.
Not really. Before, the section contained but two pieces of information: that the school had problems with environmentalists, and it was allegedly part and parcel of the SG. Those two items are still there.--Daveler16 (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC) The paragraph regarding SUA's rankings should be moved closer to the top as it reflects the perception of the school within the larger academic community. It is also constantly ranked as one of the most diverse schools in the country.Lionpride82 (talk) 16:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Standardisation of Articles
I found that there are a few article that are inter-related with the main Soka Gakkai article. While I appreciate what is being done and discuss in this talk, other article which are not locked for editing are slowly being fill or vandalised with negative perception.
The main article that is taking place is Daisaku Ikeda. You can see that what is being written previously with negative perception in "Soka Gakkai" is being left unedited on Daisaku Ikeda article.Kelvintjy (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that article does seem to have many of the same problems as this one. In the lead, we stated that he hadn't been seen in public since 2010, and that in 2011 Shincho had written that he was terminally ill. So I corrected that and posted a link to a video of him giving a speech in 2013. It took about 5 minutes to find. The first 5 pages in Google were dominated by reports that he was dead. --Margin1522 (talk) 09:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, this video does not appear on the Japanese Misplaced Pages article talking about his health. Shii (tock) 12:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- That have an article on that? I guess I'm not surprised. --Margin1522 (talk) 12:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, this video does not appear on the Japanese Misplaced Pages article talking about his health. Shii (tock) 12:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
After years of observing this article
After years of observing this article there is but one common thread. Some editors spend much of their time downgrading, deleting, defaming, quarrelling over sections of the article that are either critical or non-supportive of SGI’s view of itself. At the same time non-primary sources are hard to be found that support SGI. I really do wonder why that is. On the other hand I have witnessed claims being inserted in this article or on Mr. Ikeda that a closer look can not be substantiated.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry to be a party pooper here but yet again I do ask myself – why is it that a number of editors do put much time an effort to discredit critics of SGI (may it be editors or sources) that are based on non-primary sources rather than to substantiate, based on non-primary sources, how SGI views itself and it works? Why is that? Why is that an ongoing issue here? --Catflap08 (talk) 18:26, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Finishing work on lede
I want to thank everyone for their contributions and teamwork. I think the lede is vastly improved. I can only work on this project for another week or two before I have to pull back due to work. If there is anything I can do, please let me know.
In the meanwhile, here are a few seeds for thought.
1- Can we reduce the use of subordinating prepositions, for example in the sentence, "While Ikeda has been successful in moving the group towards mainstream acceptance in some areas, it is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan." There is an implicit value in the grammatical structure because with clauses of concession the subordinate clause ("While Ikeda...") is usually deemed less significant than the independent clause ("it is still widely viewed..."). The solution is simple: change this into two independent and verifiable stand-alone sentences. Readers will have to decide for themselves which carry more weight. Ditto for "While the movement is publicly involved in peace activism, education and politics, it has also been at the center of controversies."
2- Do we really need to have three references to "cult" in a single lede? To me it strikes of overkill and gives "cult" much too much weight. One mention should be sufficient in the lede and perhaps an extended discussion could happen in a new subsection. If I had a choice I would immediately eliminate "brainwashing cult" since it does not appear in the article and both the APA and courts have questioned the scientific validity of the concept.
3- I believe the lede understates the significance of Makiguchi, Toda, and Ikeda to the core beliefs of the organization. On Tuesday I visited the New York SGI Center's bookstore and had the opportunity to interview five members, a preliminary to the article I am conceiving. I am convinced that "a Japanese new religious movement informed by the teachings of Nichiren" is insufficient. I need to research this more and for now suggest that we consider this for the next rewrite.
With your permission I would like to at least take a whack at #1.
FetullahFan (talk) 19:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with 1 and 2, but with point 3 do you understand that this is the definition of WP:OR? Shii (tock) 22:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Shii, actually it is not WP:OR. If you recall you initially liked my suggestion on August 19th that the lede start with “"The Soka Gakkai is a Japanese new religious movement which bases itself on the the teachings of Nichiren as interpreted by its three founding presidents." That was based on research I conducted (see samples below) that convinced me that we are dealing with a movement that incorporated Nichiren’s writings but has drilled through them through the work of the three presidents to the point that Nichiren’s intent shines brightly. Excuse the length of this post but I want to leave an important point for future editors to consider.
- From Nariyoshi Tamaru: “Makiguchi came into contact with Nichiren’s teachings rather late in his career, but accepted them as the culmination of his lifelong intellectual quest. His published works, accordingly, show a unique combination of his own thinking and the doctrine of traditional Buddhism, or an attempt to reinterpret the latter by means of the former. The key concept in this combination is “the theory of value,” which became the motto of his whole movement.” Global Citizens, p. 32.
- From Richard H. Seager: “During the years of work on his pedagogy, remained skeptical about religion’s dogmatic claims, all the while respectful of human’s capacity for wonder, mystery, awe, and sanctity. When Makiguchi eventually took Buddhism seriously, it was because it enhanced, rather than overturned, these convictions, as he found in Nichiren much that lent support to his educational theories. The Lotus Sutra’s teachings that true Buddha is awakened wisdom fitted his own view that creating value is the essence of being human.” (Encountering the Dharma, p. 31).
- “Makiguchi’s Nichiren-based ideas as an expression of what Heinz Bechert called “Buddhist modernism,’ the self-conscious effort to adapt Buddhism to modern society, a movement that has surfaced in many parts of Asia over the course of the past century. A fusion of modern, liberal .pedagogical ideals with ancient Lotus Buddhism, Makiguchi’s philosophy is a hybrid worldview that would be the starting point for Toda in the postwar years and, after him, for Ikeda. (p. 32).
- From Nariyoshi Tamaru: “ provided the movement with two central ideas that inspired people in his generation and elicited their commitment. One was the doctrine of obutsumyogo (the union of worldly matters and Buddhist teaching)…; the other was the “philosophy of life” as the quintessence of faith. In the former, it is not difficult to see that it was formulation of the preeminently sociopolitical intentions inherent in Nichiren’s teachings. Because of severe criticism from many quarters in postwar Japan, however, it finally had to be withdrawn. The second element, which restates another important motif of Nichiren Buddhism in modern language, remains the basic principle for all the activities of SG to the present” (p. 34)
- From Nariyoshi Tamaru: “ harsh experiences in prison seem to have modified his understanding of Nichiren Buddhism in a subtle way. During his incarceration he set about enquiring carefully into Nichiren’s writings and sutras. This led him to the realization that the Eternal Buddha of the Lotus Sutra, so crucial in Nichiren’s teachings, was nothing but “Life”. According to Toda, this means “the fundamental power of the Universe,” and the Universe itself is Life, even before living creatures appear in it. He thus advanced a panvitalistic vision that equated Buddha, Universe, and Life as being mutually identical. Furthermore, this vision, far from being a mere metaphysical speculation, had a practical implication. He insisted that this fundamental power, Life, could give people happiness, and it was the duty of human beings to appropriate and transfer it to others. Happiness was nothing other than a harmonious relation between us and the Buddha-life, and it could be achieved by sincere believing in the Three Great Mysteries as formulated by Nichiren and by the chanting of daimoku. (p. 37, also see footnote 18 which refers readers to Susumu Mimazono’s “Shinshukyo to gensekyusai shiso” in Jikido Takasaki and Kiyotaka Mimura (eds.), Nihon bukkyo ron, (Tokyo: Shunjyusha, 1995).)
- “Makiguchi had championed the rights of children to learn as children, following the lines of inquiry and curiosity natural to them and learning at their own age-appropriate pace. And he had placed the happiness of children before all else. His entire educational philosophy was based on that fundamental principle, which informed everything he wrote. That philosophy, which would later merge with the writing of Nichiren Daishonin to form the Soka Gakkai’s teachings on Human Revolution, was already well developed before Makiguchi began writing his theories on value-creating-education” (Clark Strand, Waking the Buddha, pp. 44-45).
- From Bryan and David Machacek: “To Makiguchi’s humanistic educational philosophy, Toda added a populist political dimension that seems to have had a distinctive appeal in the confused and stressful situation that followed Japan’s defeat in the war. However, it was the ideology of “human revolution,” articulated by SG’;s third president, Daisaku Ikeda, which constituted the movement’s primary source of appeal, not only among the Japanese public, but also to individuals worldwide who were experiencing the process of social change taking place in the late twentieth century.
- The concept of “human revolution” encompasses goals of reforming institutional structures, but asserts that the way to reform social institutions—to improve education, promote tolerance, protect the environment, and end war—is through individual enlightenment. Thus, reform is directed foremost to individual lives and by extension from individual lives to communities, nations, and the world.” Global Citizens, p. 3.
- For more vivid descriptions of the impact of Toda’s awakening in prison, see Richard Seager, pp. 47-48 and Clark Strand, pp. 69-79. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.191.18 (talk) 11:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with all of those points, but I think it's a bit early to focus on the lead. If you have time for a project, I would suggest researching the influence of progressive thinkers like John Dewey on Makiguchi. That is lacking right now in our Makiguchi article. But there is a lot of research on that out there. I tried to put some of it into the article earlier, but Catflap deleted it. You can look for it in the history. It was an MA thesis. Anyway, if we improve the Makiguchi article, then we can improve the section on Makiguchi in this article, and then improve the lead. --Margin1522 (talk) 23:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see a better phrasing for the pluses and minuses regarding public perception, as the group is generally viewed more negatively than not in Japan, as attested to in various sources (see footnote to reficte 5). And Japan is what carries weight in this article, not SGI. The fact is that even though SGI is involved in "peace activism, education and politics" the Japanese don't view the group in a more positive light. The current phrasing is also concise, and written in a summary manner, and does not cast SG in an negative light. Nonetheless, I'd be interested in any suggested improvements.
- There are different meanings to "brainwashing cult" and "cult of personality", both of which are attested in reliable sources. There is no grounds for removing either. "Brainwashing cult" is mentioned in a footnote (refcite 7), and could (and probably should) be incorporated into the main body.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 04:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit, my point is that the word cult carries much too much weight in the lede as is. A footnote mention is hardly justification for mention in the lede which carries an amplified significance. Do the work, start a subsection on the debate about cult identification, let people present evidence, AND THEN include in the lede as appropriate. As far as "brainwashing cult" is concerned, the sources may be OK but the science is not (SEE APA Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Techniques of Persuasion and Control. This is another reason why the discussion should be hashed out in a subsection rather than in the lede.
- FetullahFan (talk) 12:07, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry the personality cult must and should be mentioned in the article. Some may like some may not. Fact is that outside observers attest this too – it’s obvious, it’s in one’s face and its currently one of the primary reasons that drives many adherents away. One can certainly cover all that up with so called peace activities of which I see no serious proof of. SGI never speaks up against human rights violations may this be in China, Russia or where ever. The lamentation of being apparently “persecuted” during World War II is reflected with an astonishing silence when facing religious persecutions that takes place all over the world right now – not even of Buddhist persecution that takes place in Tibet – zero, nada, nothing. For an organisation that prides itself with UN-activities that is a sad if not miserable state of affairs. The concept of Karuṇā seems to play no role.--Catflap08 (talk) 16:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I have no problem about including it in the article, but not in the lede unless it is substantiated in the article. If you think it is crucial in the lede, then do the hard work, Catflap08. Create a section that ties together the disparate comments about cult and cult of personality within a subsection and let editors contribute pros and cons. The lede, however, is not the appropriate place for such a debate.
- Please respond to my comment about the science behind "brainwashing" which has been disavowed by the APA and the courts. Why do you insist on including shaky science in a lede?
- Please stay on topic and stop creating diversions about peace-keeping--that belongs in subsection 2.4, not here.
- And one more request about sourcing to you and others who edit this site. Please do not use Japanese-language sources unless you take the time to translate as per WP guidelines ( Furukawa, Yantori, Shimada). But why use them at all? If your point is that important, surely you can rely on English-language sources to substantiate. Finally, please refrain from misquoting scholars. Citation is quite misleading because the author's point is that perceptions about the SG are "fractious" which include the spectrum from controversial to praiseworthy; it's egregious to use it as it currently stands.
I do not believe in creating sections and subsections over and over again as I do not believe in working on one cult issue making another cult look better.Which of the sources are the ones you deem shaky on brainwashing? --Catflap08 (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, a charge of "brainwashing" in a lede is a very serious statement. Even a statement of a perception of brainwashing is serious. A high level of documentation should therefore be required. Yes, it is so serious that it does merit a section so it can be examined. The documentation would have to answer the question of if SG members have been reduced to zombies, why is the organization so wealthy and powerful? Why would the LPD want to partner with Komeito if it is zombie-controlled?
- Secondly, the sources are tainted. I mentioned and you did not respond to my reservations about Japanese-language sources. Yes, they are admissible in WP under certain conditions, but the charge of brainwashing is so serious that English-language sources from top scholars should be cited.
- I particularly object to the use of James R. Lewis as a source supporting the brainwashing contention. Anyone familiar with his work knows that he was one of the foremost scholars of the "anti-anti-cult" movement. He earned a degree of notoriety for his uncompromising opinions that NRMs should be held to the same standards as more traditional schools. The use of his article that is cited here is specious, ugly, and unethical beyond belief. He uses the claim that the SG is viewed as a brainwashing cult as a foil and spends the rest of the article explaining that the contention is false. Whoever posted that citation should apologize profusely--and perhaps be sent to the WP time-out corner for a couple of years.
- This is similar to the specious use of the Seager citation I mentioned above. It is one thing to have a POV and another to be unscrupulous in defending it.
- BTW, if you do not want to create this subsection, I will take it on. I will create a balanced one that reflects WP:DUE. I just ask that you do not even think of removing it.
- FetullahFan (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with FetullaFan, the use of “cult” in the opening paragraph is deeply problematic. The references used to support this label were taken entirely out of context.
First, this sentence: "Some anti-cult authors have included the Soka Gakkai on their lists of cults."
The reference is from a book called "The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions"...deducing that is a cult just from being mentioned in this book is misleading as it is not exclusively about cults. Furthermore, nowhere in the section on the Soka Gakkai it is labeled a "cult."
Furthermore writing "some anti-cult authors" is also deceptive as only one author is referenced. There are far more authors that routinely argue that SGI is not a cult such as Oxford Professor Bryan Wilson in his article " The British Movement and its Members"(Global Citizens, page 370, Oxford University Press)
In regards to the "brainwashing cult" reference, it seems the purpose of this paragraph is to claim the group is controversial and the term "brainwashing cult" is haphazardly thrown in there riding on the coat tails of the research that argues that the Soka Gakkai struggles with a somewhat negative public perception in Japan. Many of the references for this statement make no claim of the group being a "brainwashing cult."
Reference # 5. Why this reference was used is very puzzling.
Wellman, Jr., James K.; Lombardi, Clark B. (eds.). Religion and human security : a global perspective. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 272. ISBN 978-0199827756. "When I conducted a survey of 235 Doshisha University students a few years ago asking their opinions about the Gakkai and how much they knew about its peace education programs, over 80 percent responded that they had a negative image of the movement and about 60 percent thought that its "peace movement" is little more than promotional propaganda. the few respondents with a positive image were either Soka Gakkai members, were related members, or were friends of members."
Again, makes no mention of Ikeda as a “brainwashing cult leader” and seems totally unrelated to this statement in the article.
Reference: LA Times
This article hardly labels the gakkai as a brainwashing cult or Ikeda as a cult leader. It does explore the both positive and negative aspects of Ikeda’s public perception, however claiming this backs the notion that Ikeda is a “cult leader” is a gross oversimplification. The article says:
“Ikeda also has started a political party, education system, art museum and cultural programs that have taken him to 50 countries--deeds that will establish his legacy as one of modern Japan's most remarkable religious leaders, said Shin Anzai, a Roman Catholic scholar.”
The “cult” references in the lead is wholly misleading. The references used to back this claim is very sloppy if not completely dishonest. The use of the word “cult” should be completely taken out of the lead.
Lionpride82 (talk) 21:40, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am removing the Robert Bluck citation that is being used to support the sentence “it is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a stereotype of being a ‘brainwashing cult’ as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda” in the lede. As @Ubikwit has pointed out this is an article about the SG, not the SGI. Bluck’s book is a balanced review of SGI-UK, not the SG. Therefore it is not appropriate to use it to define public perception of the SG.
- Furthermore the pages it references have no relevance to the topic. The only remotely possible sentence to the topic on page 98 is: “But his persistent intolerance makes him an unusual role model for contemporary Buddhists.” This is a sentence about Nichiren and has not the slightest connection to the SG. The only remotely connected sentence on page 99 is “Critics may see the publicity surrounding Ikeda as a personality cult.” Critics? Which ones? “May see”? That is not even a declarative sentence, let alone a well-researched finding.
- I am discovering that this article is rife ignorant or unscrupulously-used citations. I repeat my comment from yesterday that the editor who included them should apologize to the WP community.
- I find it surprising that some editors object to posting of the work of top scholars who are publishing through a SGI-USA publishing house yet have no objection to the appearance of unscrupulous sources.
- I also want to remove the Khoon Choy Lee citation The claims of “brainwashing cult” and “cult of personality” are so serious and emotionally-charged to WP readers that they merit the highest level of scholarship to appear in a lede. The source “Japan: Between Myth and Reality” by Khoon Choy Lee does not carry this weight. Lee was appointed ambassador to Japan 1984 and his book was a collection of personal impressions from his years in Japan. It is a personal memoir, not an academic study. It has no references, no theoretical basis from sociology, anthropology or religiosity. In the cited passages (102-106) there is no mention of “brainwashing” or any accusation of “cult of personality.” Lee does describe the strong affections of SG for Ikeda but this does not match any historical examples that appear in Cult of Personality which are restricted to political figures who carry national authority. Furthermore Lee’s impressions are from thirty years ago, whereas the sentence it refers to states “it is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan” (present tense).
- On a curious note, Lee spends about as much time on his observations of the SG (102-106) as he does on phallic-worshiping shrines in Japan (82-85).
FetullahFan (talk) 22:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am removing the reference from James R. Lewis. I posted this comment a couple of days ago. "I particularly object to the use of James R. Lewis as a source supporting the brainwashing contention. Anyone familiar with his work knows that he was one of the foremost scholars of the 'anti-anti-cult' movement. He earned a degree of notoriety for his uncompromising opinions that NRMs should be held to the same standards as more traditional schools. The use of his article that is cited here is specious, ugly, and unethical beyond belief. He uses the claim that the SG is viewed as a brainwashing cult as a foil and spends the rest of the article explaining that the contention is false. Whoever posted that citation should apologize profusely--and perhaps be sent to the WP time-out corner for a couple of years."
- FetullahFan (talk) 22:30, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think that the fact that Lewis himself does not necessarily support the "brainwashing cult" epithet is a reason to dismiss the use of his statements as a reliable source for the fact that many have in fact characterized SG/SGI as such. It is a secondary source testimony to that fact.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 00:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am also requesting second opinions on the Yanatori source (Yanatori, Mitsuyoshi (1977). Sōka Gakkai (in Japanese). Tokyo: Kokusho Kankōkai.). I am not doubting Yanatori's scholarship, just the appropriateness of using a dated source (1977) to describe PRESENT public sentiment about the SG. Yanatori's research took place well before Komeito became a governing coalition partner in the New Frontier Party and certainly before its current role as a minority party in the LDP coalition. Could these events have played a role in public perception? I certainly think so.
- FetullahFan (talk) 23:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
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