Talk:Macedonia (ancient kingdom)

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Ancient Macedonians

This subject of this article appears to be a copy of the better sourced Ancient Macedonians, which also contains the word ancient or refers to it as ancient".Cosprings (talk) 11:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article has only 18 sources compared to the main Ancient Macedonians article which has over 200. I've redirected this page after you input was received per its reason for existence. Cosprings (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I haven't checked in detail the overlap of these two articles but I think the topics are sufficiently different to warrant separate articles. I am not comfortable with the redirect, given also that these articles are separate in many other wikis. I would welcome additional input from the wider community. Perhaps an RfC may be in order. Δρ.Κ. 14:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

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Should this article be redirected to Ancient Macedonians? Your input is welcome. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. 14:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

My first gut reaction was that a merger would very likely be a good idea, since I've never seen much use for this Wikipedian habit of having separate articles for ethnicities and their countries, where the factual scope of both topics can be considered as near-100% identical. However, in the present case, it turns out that both articles are of very substantial length already, with (apparently, from what I can gather at a quick glance) predominantly non-overlapping content, so a merger might lead to a rather unwieldy article. Before such a merger is done, I'd certainly want to see something like a planned outline first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Future. I agree with your assessment that these articles are not identical as has been claimed and I fully agree that as a minimum any merger has to be planned. As a corollary to that, converting this article to a redirect is not a good idea at this stage. Δρ.Κ. 16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe that these articles shouldn't be merged as they are both quite long articles and they refer to different subjects, a kingdom vs people. A merge will lead to a very long article where bias will be harder to rid, so it is better for it to stay how it is. When you search for the Macedonian Kingdom, you're not looking for the people are you?Luxure (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Kingdom?

Now, I will be going against the Greeks here, but there is only one reference saying it is a Greek Kingdom in the article, and it is contrary to the many authors/science which classify Macedonia as a separate Kingdom from Greece. Ancient Greece didn't have Kings, but thats not the point. There are many sources saying it is/isn't Greek, so I am going to change the subject line as it shows bias to one side of the argument. Also, the writing is inscribed in Greek, even though we do not know the runes/lettering system the Ancient Macedonians used. I await thy response and look forward to it. Luxure (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

"Ancient Greece didn't have kings" and "runes"? Given that these statements show astonishing ignorance of the area's history, and given that you fail to provide any of the many sources that say it isn't Greek, while removing a source that clearly says the opposite, I am reverting you. There are many arguments that can be made considering whether the Macedonians qualify as fully Greek, whatever that means, but "runes" or the kingship is not one of them. Come back when you have an informed argument based on sources. Constantine ✍ 11:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

We have had this discussion many times in the past (for example, here) and the consensus has always come down on the side of "ancient kingdom" without specifying its alleged "Greekness". "Ancient kingdom" is NPOV. The article itself specifies the relationship between the Greek city-states and the Macedonian kingdom in more detail. Placing a red flag in the first sentence of the article is definitely a violation of Misplaced Pages's WP:NPOV policy. --Taivo (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

@Taivo: Great, if the discussion has been held before and s definite consensus reached, that is it. I hope you do understand though why I reverted a change made on the basis that "Ancient Greece didn't have Kings". Constantine ✍ 09:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I thought this topic was closed, unfortunately we are becoming again victims of hotheads from the aegean and vardar macedonian parts. At least make a resolution here and dont affect the quality of the site with edit wars. and good luck guys with your wasting of enormous amounts of hours fighting here. I will only make one humble comment: winning such an internet debate is like wining the paraolympics. You might win it but you remain disabled. Stevepeterson (talk) 14:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You are in violation of both WP:AGF and WP:NPA here, Stevepeterson. The key here is a neutral first sentence to the article. WP:NPOV means that Misplaced Pages doesn't take sides in a nationalistic dispute, but tries to maintain neutral wording. Ancient Macedonia's cultural, political, and linguistic relationship to the Greek city-states is clearly spelled out in detail in the article--including both its Greek aspects and its non-Greek aspects. Throwing a POV red flag into the article in the first sentence is a violation of Misplaced Pages neutrality. --Taivo (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality isn't supposed to hide or distort the truth. All the reliable sources and historical evidence clearly show that Ancient Macedon was a Greek kingdom. Misplaced Pages is based on Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. Can you provide a shred of reliable evidence that ancient Macedonia wasn't Greek? I don't know what your motives are, but after reading comments like: "Ancient Greece didn't have Kings", "Macedonia's alleged "Greekness" I understand that some people here aren't only biased and historically ignorant, but they are in fact trying desperately to push a FYROM/Skopije pseudo-historic agenda that has no place in an encyclopedia like this. Writing down the truth based on countless reliable scientific historical evidence is not a violation of wikipedia's neutrality. I really couldn't believe that such blatant distortion of history and cheap pseudo-historic propaganda could ever permeate wikipedia. I sourced the "Ancient greek kingdom" phrase with historical evidence and reliable sources. Every unjustified removal of those sources would be considered as blatant and old-school vandalism. Furthermore, let me ask you this Taivo: Let's say for the sake of the argument that tomorrow morning Turkey starts advocating that Napoleon wasn't French but Turkish. Will you start forbiding wikipedia users to write down that Napoleon was French because they would be in violation of Misplaced Pages neutrality? Would you suggest that "Misplaced Pages doesn't take sides in a nationalistic dispute, but tries to maintain neutral wording" in that case? I don't think that you are trying to maintain neutrality here. I think you are giving FYROM/Skopije propaganda some vital space to grow, by showing blatant disregard for the reliable sources and by using neutrality as an excuse. Gtrbolivar (talk) 11:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Greek Peninsula

Greek Peninsula gives it an inherently 'Greek' Bias and also southern parts of Albania can be considered on the Greek Peninsula. Maps as viewed on this article show that it is on the NE Aegean Sea,on the turning point where it becomes apart of the greater 'mainland' not the peninsua, bordering the Chalcidice which is not apart of the peninsula, and the phrase 'Greek Peninsula' is rarely used elsewhere. I shalt await thy response Luxure (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a note that Macedonia was never on the northeast corner of the Aegean. It was on the northWEST corner of the Aegean. As far as "Greek peninsula" is concerned, what other name are you going to give that peninsula? --Taivo (talk) 04:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

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