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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Montanabw (talk | contribs) at 18:48, 6 October 2014 (→Fundamental issue: Hmmm.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Scope

What's the scope of this case? Is it strictly about the behavior of the parties, or given that multiple arbitrators cited the axiomatic existence / problem of, at a minimum, the ratio of the male / female contributions different than population from which Misplaced Pages draws it editors as a reason to take to case, one even suggesting (and then retracting) a change in policy -- are we allowed to discuss that postulate, and its implications for Misplaced Pages dispute resolution protocols? NE Ent 12:09, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I heartily second that question. Given that the leading "combatants" on each side are in rare unanimity that they didn't want this case to be accepted, and adding to that the adage hard cases make bad law, I actually have no idea what ArbCom even thought they were accepting. Clarification would help all of us. Here are some possibilities and my thoughts:

1. If it's an attempt to resolve the entire gender gap and systemic bias issue on wikipedia, good luck with all that.
2. If it's because of the latest round of Eric Corbett insulting someone, well, equally good luck with all that.
3. If it's because Corbett specifically pissed off a couple of individuals who see it as a symptom of a hostile environment, that's not an ArbCom matter - particularly given that most of the people Corbett has insulted in the past have been either male or have not disclosed their gender.
4. If it's because some people other than Corbett (Specifico, et. al.) started trolling the Gender Gap talk page and derailing its mission, that might be a case.
5. If it's because the editor with the most edits to the GGTF page confuses incivility with sexism, that's also not an ArbCom matter.

So further thoughts and guidance from ArbCom would help me formulate my thoughts on whatever it is we are debating! Montanabw 20:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I would have thought it was obvious it would not/could not be about how to resolve the gender gap issue and that it was entirely about WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on the part of both "sides". (Which may go to explain why the desire of both "sides" for this not to proceed has been ignored). Apart from examining individual behaviour (and btw Eric Corbett seems to have had a minor role in all this so that really shouldn't be a distraction) what could usefully determined is the standards of behaviour in a "presure group" type WikiProject. Can "opposers" participate, how should "supporters" conduct themselves if they do participate? This would have broader application than the Gender Gap Task Force issue and it seems to me it is unclear at the moment. DeCausa (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

"Pressure groups", as you call them, seek changes that have repercussions for other editors, and so must be open to opposition. Hundreds of those discussing VisualEditor were entirely opposed to the tool or questioned the basic premises of its philosophy; I see no reason why this instance should be "protected" in some way. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but there appears to be a view that for some WikiProjects - if they are "worthy" enough that is - only broadly like-minded people should participate. And that for others to participate is automatically disruptive or trolling. Of course, there could still have been trolling, but some in this case have used trolling as a synonym for opposition. There is scope here for ArbCom to make clear the difference (or set the boundary between) opposition and disruption in these situations. (Btw, is "pressure group" just my ENGVAR? Not sure. Also known as Advocacy group). DeCausa (talk) 07:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Disclaimer, I'm not one of the drafters and these are just my opinions. That said, the gender gap is indeed a problem and it needs to be bridged; however, bridging it is not, per policy, within the purview of this Committee: as some love to say, ArbCom is not GovCom. We generally deal with behavioural issues and, so, I expect we will be examinining the conduct of all involved parties to determine whether there was any actionable misconduct. Salvio 09:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

  I think Salvio has it exactly right, and I am one of the drafters . I'd like to see any evidence of actionable misconduct and suggestions for how to improve discussions in the future. The gender gap is a genuine issue on Misplaced Pages and it does need to be tackled - anything that we can do to facilitate that is a positive step forward. Worm(talk) 10:34, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

  My concern, having been someone who provided some statements and evidence in the infobox case, is that the danger here is that at the end of the day, a few people will somehow be banned or restricted, few to none of whom were the people doing most of the WP:BAITing, a general "be nicer" admonition will be issued, and nothing will actually change. What would help would be some actual guideline or policy discussions with a view to a overall look at ways to reduce trolling in general, which is usually beneath a lot of the problems with individuals rising to the boiling point and then behaving poorly. Montanabw 03:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Fundamental issue

Not diffable "evidence" exactly, but something that seems quite relevant to the case nevertheless:

"Today, Western feminism isn’t concerned primarily, as it should be, with civic action, but with overreaction to unsavoury elements in popular culture (sexist song lyrics, sexist TV writing) and a never-ending obsession with the identity politics of “privilege.” Every space where feminist theory and issues are discussed must be a “safe” one, which is to say a conformist one. According to the Geek Feminist Wiki, a popular online feminist forum, a “safe space is an area where a shared political or social viewpoint is required to participate.” Discussions, therefore, tend to end before they begin, unless they devolve into yelling matches" (Teitel, 2014).

This is what has happened here, and more importantly, this is why. This case appears to be framed as an opportunity to sanction those yelling the loudest, but doing so wouldn't solve the problem. Discussion is the wiki way, after all. Silencing the opposition is not healthy, and here it's not feasible. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that analysis is not "western feminism." Feminism is simply "the radical notion that women are people." The GGTF is a branch from the Countering Systemic Bias project, which should be addressing any number of related "invisibility" problems on wiki. (Any idea how many Native American wikipedia editors there are? Very, very few!) Most folks here know me and know that I am pretty good in an on-wiki street fight, AND I am a feminist AND I am a woman. I'm really tired of both anti-feminists and some people who claim the feminist mantle both making the ridiculous argument for fluffy pink bunnies and magic unicorns to appear before the girls can come play - and that we will be run off if we don't get them (utter nonsense). I also am frustrated that the GGTF has become a free-fire zone between trolls and people who confuse incivility with sexism (not at all the same). Whatever else happens, let's not let this devolve into some sort of feminist-bashing fest, because that is not helpful. We have horrible problems with trolls on articles such as Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, that's the stuff that is the real problem. Montanabw 05:55, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and if you read the whole article you'll find it actually agrees with you ;-). The author makes a distinction between contemporary currents in Western feminism, represented by certain groups and trends (which I suggest include the GGTF), and what feminism is meant to be. I agree, and I expect the author would as well, that the "fluffy pink bunnies" movement is misguided, and at times borders on offensive (cf. VisualEditor being promoted as more accessible for women editors). That's not bashing feminism, that's bashing how it's being applied in the Misplaced Pages context. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:46, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I look at the GGTF as a part of WP:CSB, not counter to it. I also think that is the spirit in which it was created. As for the "fluffy pink bunnies and magic unicorns" - perhaps we're in agreement there, although I don't really like the meme because I think it demeans the contributions of editors (male and female) who lean toward the less prickly, political subjects. If an editor would prefer to write about fashion or cats, they should be treated with every bit as much respect as he or she who prefers to write about labor or evolutionary biology. I also disagree that there are GGTF participants who "confuse incivility with sexism." That oversimplifies the connection and stops short of reducing it to a meme like "fluffy pink bunnies". Lightbreather (talk) 19:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

"... unless they devolve into yelling matches between men’s rights activists (a ragtag collective of angry virgins and divorced dads) and indignant feminists (a ragtag collective of angry everything) futilely trying to reason with them" is the end of the Teitel paragraph quoted above. I do think the ones who cause the most "heat" at GGTF (and probably everywhere else on WP where feminism and sexism are discussed) are these editors who cannot control their anger. Everyone gets angry, but that's no excuse for profanities and obstructionism. Lightbreather (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the words "feminism" and "sex" do not appear on the Main case page in its current (14:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)) form. Although the subjects of feminism and sexism come up in GGTF discussions, the task force is not about those things but about hows those things - along with other questions - effect gender gaps in general and the WP gender gap in particular. Lightbreather (talk) 19:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

This discussion page actually gets to what I believe to be the real issue with two phrases: "pressure group" and "identity politics." The Gender Gap Task Force is not a WikiProject like WikiProject Feminism or WikiProject Biography or WikiProject Mississippi or WikiProject Conservatism — a project focusing on encyclopedia content. It is a political pressure group. And more than that, it is a political pressure group making use of identity politics, which is the fundamental cause of the strife. I don't think the GGTF's goal is bad (increasing the number of women editors). I don't think a political organization of editors to defend and advance the cause of women is bad — or even to advance politically or to defend female editors simply because they are women. I just don't think such a political organization should have its locus of organization on Wiki. A Wikipediocracy type entity by and for women with restricted membership hosted and conducted off site makes far better sense to me, keeping Misplaced Pages itself apolitical. Carrite (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Sound thinking. But please clarify: do you feel the GGTF mission s/b limited to "increasing the number of women editors"? What change(s) would you advocate to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force#Scope? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I personally think the GGTF would be better used to promote addressing gender gap issues with CONTENT - if you build it, the editors will come - right now, I suspect articles on 21st century porn stars outnumber those on 21st century women writers by a factor of a zillion to one - and if someone doesn't see that as a gender gap problem, well, that is also a rpoblem...Montanabw 03:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

One would think that WikiProject Feminism is already set up for that. The porn star issue is a separate one, I think — it's actually a pretty easy one to solve by wiping out the Special Notability Guideline for porn stars and forcing articles on them to face the normal standards which articles on non-pornographic actors must face, which is an idea that would have traction. Carrite (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

You raise a good question, which is why the GGTF is a spinoff from the Countering Systemic Bias project... and why they aren't all linked to WP Feminism. Montanabw 18:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)