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Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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Reboot: Pronunciation placement

I've just now become aware of the above discussion, where it was proposed that pronunciation could be moved out of the lead in favor of the infobox. It's a year-old discussion with no consensus but I think it's a fantastic idea and we should keep pursuing it. Does anyone support an RFC for this? —Designate (talk) 19:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Several Bio info boxes now support pronunciations. This guide has suggested the option of moving it out of the lede for months. There may be cases where the pronunciation is so counter-intuitive that a simple opening text is insufficient, but in most cases, like Renoir or Hitler, there's no real need for pronunciation in the lede. I'm linking this discussion from infobox talk pages for comment. — kwami (talk) 22:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Generally it makes sense that pronuciation is not what makes a person notable, for example, so I would agree, can be taken out of lede. But it seems a minor nit. W Nowicki (talk) 23:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

So I thought. But when I started cleaning up the ledes, I got a demand that I revert all of my edits because I didn't have consensus. I'm not going to, of course, but I thought it was worth bringing up, just in case all the people who have complained about ledes getting cluttered up with pronunciations were not representative. — kwami (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose this, as infoboxes should be kept as short as possible. They are a very space-inefficient way of giving information, and are supposed to be less detailed than the lede, so this seems clearly a step in the wrong direction. The amount of work required to change the now long-established habit of putting them in the first sentence for thousands of articles would be fantastic. Who is going to do this? Even if there were a large consensus in favour of this, which with only 4 people commenting in 6 weeks there clearly isn't, it should not be done unless it can be done consistently. Johnbod (talk) 01:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That's an argument against ever changing anything. As far as your concept of infoboxes, it isn't matched by practice. In practice, we put data in infoboxes when it wouldn't be good style to put it in the text, such as details that most people won't want up front etc. They are, actually, much more space-efficient than text, and it's the opening line of the lede that, for legibility, needs to be kept as short as possible, not the infobox. — kwami (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe that is general practice, and if it is, it emphatically shouldn't be. A new item in an infobox takes a whole new line and spacer after, admittedly in a smaller font, and this usually to convey one or two words. Johnbod (talk) 12:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

A bot could do this easily, so that part isn't an issue. —Designate (talk) 01:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I very much doubt that, as the placing and phrasing isn't consistent now. Johnbod (talk) 02:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Very rarely do we need foreign transcriptions in the lede either. Here's an example I ran across today, Genghis Khan (here as I found it):

Genghis Khan (English pronunciation:/ˈɡɛŋɡɪs ˈkɑːn/ or /ˈdʒɛŋɡɪs ˈkɑːn/;; Cyrillic: Чингис Хаан, Chingis Khaan, IPA: ; Mongol script: , Činggis Qaɣan; Chinese: 成吉思汗; pinyin: Chéng Jí Sī Hán; probably May 31, 1162 – August 25, 1227), born Temujin (English pronunciation: /təˈmuːdʒɪn/; Template:Lang-mn, Temüjin IPA: ; Template:Lang-xng; traditional Chinese: 鐵木真; simplified Chinese: 铁木真; pinyin: Tiě mù zhēn) and also known by the temple name Taizu (Chinese: 元太祖; pinyin: Yuán Tàizǔ; Wade–Giles: T'ai-Tsu), was the founder and Great Khan (emperor) of the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his death.

How do we expect anyone to read that? Now compare it to the non-parethetical text:

Genghis Khan (1162?–1227), born Temujin and also known by the temple name Taizu, was the founder and Great Khan (emperor) of the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his death.

Of course, now the info box of that article is overcrowded with all that stuff, but that's because allowance hasn't been made for such things (i.e., there's no place for birth name, temple name, posthumous name, native script, transcription, etc), and most of it could be moved to a separate section in the article. We could also use <ref group="Note"> to clean some of it out; I'll make a note of that on the talk page. — kwami (talk) 02:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Even for Ghengis, that is just far too many languages (did he ever even visit Russia?), and all thouse transcriptions and more are easily, and perhaps more reliably, available through the interwikis at the side anyway. Or what you said; but absolutely not in the infobox. Johnbod (talk) 12:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There's no Russian in there. That's Mongolian, which is relevant.

I agree that that shouldn't all be in the info box. I only put it there to get it out of the way, and because I'm not one of the ones designing the structure of the article. I dropped a note on the talk page that it should probably be cleaned up.

But even if this is extreme, there are tens of thousands of articles with all sorts of peripheral details in the lede. It's getting so that I'm pleasantly surprised whenever I come across an article that simply starts with what the article is about. — kwami (talk) 16:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I am of two minds. I don't like 'em (pronunciations) in the lede sentence and I prefer putting elsewhere; and I am not crazy about infoboxes. For now I placed about 8 artist pronunciations into infoboxes and I am holding up until this RFC determines where they (pronunciations) should go...Modernist (talk) 13:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I reversed 4 of those pending the outcome here...Modernist (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

For a more typical example than Genghis, consider:

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (/ˈroʊzəvɛlt/ ROH-zə-vɛlt or /ˈroʊzəvəlt/ ROH-zə-vəlt; January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945) also known by his initials, FDR, was ...

with

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (1882–1945), also known by his initials, FDR, was ...

And in this case the moved material does not clutter the infobox. — kwami (talk) 16:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – there's a complaint about Kwami's efforts at WP:AN/I#Pronunciation, but the people complaining are mostly not here talking. Personally, I haven't followed this, but it seems to me that decluttering the lead sentence is more important that decluttering the infoboxes. Dicklyon (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - aspects relating to pronunciation of names in biographical articles should be discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies) rather than here, as the style of the lead of biographical articles needs to be considered as a holistic whole, not split up into micro-discussions on different pages for different aspects. Aspects relating to pronuniciation in non-bio articles should still be discussed here, though I think most of the discussion so far has focused on biographical articles. I'll start a new discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies) to discuss the lead section of biographical articles. Carcharoth (talk) 15:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

• Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Style of lead sections. Carcharoth (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Comment—I'm still of the opinion that a pronunciation guide in the first sentence is disruptive to the flow, but I realize that there's a vocal constituent who are opposed to the idea of removing the pronunciation from the lede. Hence I'm skeptical that a consensus can be achieved. Regards, RJH (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

1. "Genghis Khan". Webster's New World College Dictionary. Wiley Publishing. 2004. Retrieved July 29, 2011.
2. "Genghis Khan". Oxford Dictionaries Online. Oxford University Press. 2011. Retrieved July 29, 2011.
3. Rashid al-Din asserts that Genghis Khan lived to the age of 72, placing his year of birth at 1155. The Yuanshi (元史, History of the Yuan dynasty records his year of birth as 1162. According to Ratchnevsky, accepting a birth in 1155 would render Genghis Khan a father at the age of 30 and would imply that he personally commanded the expedition against the Tanguts at the age of 72. Also, according to the Altan Tobci, Genghis Khan's sister, Temülin, was nine years younger than he; but the Secret History relates that Temülin was an infant during the attack by the Merkits, during which Genghis Khan would have been 18, had he been born in 1155. Zhao Hong reports in his travelogue that the Mongols he questioned did not know and had never known their ages.
4. Central Asiatic Journal. 5. O. Harrassowitz: 239. 1959 http://books.google.com/books?id=PjjjAAAAMAAJ. Retrieved July 29, 2011. {{cite journal}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

overtranscription

I doubt this is controversial, but when I found the pronunciation of "Montana" in the articles List of entertainers from Montana, List of athletes from Montana, and List of people in Montana history, I thought it would be best to advise against multiple transcriptions when the main article is adequate. (Esp. if further edits mean that the articles get out of sync.) — kwami (talk) 05:05, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Obviously unnecessary. Anyway, the leads on List of entertainers from Montana and List of athletes from Montana are insane and have nothing to do with the subject. Designate (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Casein

I am not sure where to raise this request, is there a WP:Pronunciation project somewhere that I could make this request? If not, could someone please drop in on the Casein article and add the proper pronunciation for that word? Thanks. SaltyBoatr 17:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. −Woodstone (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Poincaré as emblematic of a more general problem

I have heard "POIN care" more than once, and it might be nice if English-speakers used the something closer to the correct French, which is more like "Pwoin-ka-RAY." This is of course in IPA pronunciation, but this is inaccessable to most readers. But when I look at WP:PRON, it seems to allow for additional phonetic rendering besides IPA only for English:

For English words, transcriptions based on English spelling ("pronunciation respellings") such as proh-nun-see-ay-shən may be used, as may US dictionary-style transcriptions such as prō·nŭn′·sē·ā′·shən, but only in addition to the IPA. All of these should link to an explanation of the symbols, which are not universally understood. For other languages, only the IPA should be used, as respellings are inadequate to convey them.

I don't know where the last policy came from, if indeed it is what I think it is. Perhaps dictionary transcription isn't adequate to convery the nuances of non English words, but English-speakers still need to be left with something more accessable than IPA, if they don't read IPA. Thus, I suggest that this kind of thing be done words like Poincaré, since names (in particular) are so frequently mauled by Anglophones. I think this is not a case of "other languages", but rather a case of how English speakers would/should attempt to say the name in English. It may not come out perfectly French, to be sure, but at least it will be an improvement on POIN care. It this a case of the "best being the enemy of the good"? Isn't a pretty-good dictionary transcription better than an IPA which most people can't read? SBHarris 01:17, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not accessible if it's wrong, and if it's not English, it's going to be wrong. But if it's assimilated into English, there's no problem. That it, it's fine for English pronunciations of Poincaré, just not for French ones. — kwami (talk) 04:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion on Jimbo's talk page

About usefulness of IPA, alternatives etc. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Revisiting the IPA first/only style

I agree that IPA has value because it's accent-independent, but it's also nearly useless because it's inaccessible to most people. (I'm probably one of the few people I know who has even heard of IPA and I have trouble figuring out how to pronounce a word reading its IPA-transcription.) The recent vandalism of {{cleanup-IPA}} expresses the argument well:

... may contain pronunciation information that is useful to a typical reader. It should be expanded with an International Phonetic Alphabet transcription in order to render the pronunciation information unintelligible to all but a small elite group of fluent IPA speakers.

Misplaced Pages should find a middle ground, perhaps using Received British and/or Standard American pronunciations. These aren't universal accents, but nearly any English-native speaker would understand them. In addition, I expect that the vast majority of English-as-a-second-language (ESL) training uses one or the other. 75.37.20.7 (talk) 16:56, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's anything to revisit. For English words, we already have the Misplaced Pages:Pronunciation respelling key to use alongside the IPA. For non-English words, the IPA is clearly the best option if we want something halfway accurate. garik (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Read {{cleanup-IPA}} and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Pronunciation, both of which appear to emphasize the use of IPA to the exclusion of other tools. The IPA is only clearly the best option for people who understand IPA; for those who do not, it's not any help at all.

Put another way: IPA helps 1 of 100 people to be completely accurate while including RPB or SAE would allow a lot of people to be at least halfway accurate. 75.37.20.7 (talk) 00:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you arguing that we unfairly force people to use only IPA or are you arguing that we don't articulate non-IPA options clearly enough in pages describing our policies? I'm not even sure what you mean by splitting up our pronunciation indicators into American and British transcriptions... what would that be with if not the IPA? — Ƶ§œš¹ 00:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see, both the template and the style guide you link to emphasize the use of the IPA as primary, but not to the exclusion of other tools. This is as it should be. Indeed, for English words, English respellings are clearly permitted, and I'm very much in favour of them myself—provided we're consistent, and that they're provided alongside IPA (which is more helpful for many readers, particularly non-native speakers, and maintains consistency with foreign words). For foreign words, however, IPA clearly is the best option. No existing system would really be more transparent without sacrificing a good deal of accuracy, and many would be less so. Now, there is an argument (the argument you're making?) for allowing English respellings for foreign words too, but that would mean giving a rather inaccurate idea of how those words are pronounced. I'm not entirely against that: Giving people a vague notion of how to pronounce a word is better than giving them no idea. However, it is a little unsatisfactory and is something of a concession to ignorance, which isn't really what an encyclopedia should be about. garik (talk) 00:58, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and I second Aeusoes1's points. garik (talk) 01:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see IPA as being more helpful to more people; there just aren't that many who understand it. While I agree that anything else feels unsatisfactory, I don't believe it's a concession to ignorance to make encyclopedia entries accessible to those who haven't learned what amounts to a technical language. That would be like telling people they can't play poker unless they understand combinations and permutations.

Maybe the problem is how {{cleanup-IPA}} is phrased: "This article or section contains non-IPA pronunciation information," makes it sound as if including non-IPA data is wrong. Perhaps it should be rephrased as "This article does not yet include any IPA pronunciation data." Further, the first paragraph of the style guide makes no allowance for anything other than IPA and an audio file. That's seems very different from recommending that we offer other alternatives.

In other words, I think we unreasonably force people to use IPA and we don't have any strong non-IPA alternatives to recommend (never mind articulating them in the policy). I fully believe that IPA is the most accurate system, but it's unrealistic to expect that it's helpful to most people. Admittedly, finding a neutral/unbiased alternative is difficult. Leo Rosten used rhymes in The Joys of Yiddish, but that means choosing a specific accent as a baseline. That might not be ideal or neutral, but it would be more accessible. 75.37.20.7 (talk) 12:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I've mentioned your suggestion in the talk page at {{cleanup-IPA}}, but your characterization of the style guide's lead (or, as you say, first paragraph) is false. It emphasizes IPA but it makes several references to alternatives and even links to them.

Since you don't really have any viable alternative to the IPA or the respelling system, the black and the white of what you're saying is that the IPA is not perfect. All we can really say is, "noted." — Ƶ§œš¹ 16:57, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You say that "we don't have any strong non-IPA alternatives to recommend", but for English words we have the pronunciation respelling key, which I think is a very strong alternative. For foreign words there just isn't a strong alternative to the IPA. There are so many sounds in foreign words that simply don't exist in English that any system we use will have to involve representing non-English sounds (and there really is no better alternative to the IPA) or giving only a very rough approximation, for which we might as well use the respelling key. But I see your point about rewording the template. And I agree with Aeusoes1 about the style guide. I'm not sure I agree with him/her that your main point is that the IPA isn't perfect, however. It is imperfect, but I don't think that's the issue. The key issue is that any system that accurately presents foreign pronunciations (apart from recordings) will be hard to understand for a lot of people who aren't prepared to take time to learn how it works. And this is just an example of an even broader problem: Understanding how to pronounce words with sounds you don't have in your own language is simply difficult without training. There's no shortcut. As a reliable encyclopedia we must not compromise on providing accurate pronunciation information, and for that the IPA is the only sensible choice. However, as I said above, I agree that there's an argument for also including a very rough English approximation for the cursory reader, unsatisfactory (and often somewhat subjective) though that may be. I think that is your main point, right? garik (talk) 18:48, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Understanding how to pronounce words with sounds you don't have in your own language is simply difficult without training should be "Understanding how to pronounce words with sounds you don't have in your own dialect is simply difficult without training." It's just as difficult for most Americans to pronounce /ɒ/ as it is for me as a speaker from southern England to pronounce /x/. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Proposal - Add to WP:PRON -

To make using Misplaced Pages readable to the widest audiences, always try to use the Misplaced Pages:Pronunciation respelling key. It there are multiple pronunciations, put them in a section at the end of the article, not in the lead.

Misplaced Pages encyclopedia articles are about their subject. Dictionaries are about the words referring to that subject. One should not have to learn a new alphabet to use Misplaced Pages. WP:PRON makes it impossible for most users to use Misplaced Pages at the very outset of an article. WP:MOS says, "It helps editors write articles with... clear... , and precise language... The goal is to make using Misplaced Pages easier and more intuitive". Special pronunciation characters my have more precise, but if a user does not know them, they are certainly not clear. and the clarity and precision are means to an end of making Misplaced Pages easier to use, not harder.

The Genghis Khan example above argues that pronunciations should not be in either the lead or in infoboxes. The certainly should not appear in mid-sentence.

There may be examples where pronunciation differences are notable enough to appear prominently in multiple RS sources. For example, it is commonly stated in books about lichens that in the UK lichen rhymes with "kitchen", and in the US the pronunciation of lichen is like in "like in" "liken". But this is rarely if ever the first piece of information in any serious text, and whether or not to include it at all is a WP:UNDUE decision. (Apologies to Petercoxhead who comments next. I modified this comment after he responded to it. I'll try not to do that again.)

However, respelling systems regularly require alternative respellings for speakers of different English dialects, since, particularly for vowels, they only show how the grapheme is pronounced in the reader's dialect. Thus the Misplaced Pages:Pronunciation respelling key uses o for /ɒ/, yet few US speakers will pronounce it this way. It also involves non-intuitive graphemes, such as dh for /ð/ or kh for /x/, albeit fewer than IPA. (Even in the example given, "lichen" is not pronounced like "like in" in my dialect of English but like "liken".) Peter coxhead (talk) 14:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what "/ɒ/" or /ð/ are symbols for. This argues for leaving pronunciations not using elementary school alphabets out altogether. FloraWilde (talk) 00:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Forvo

Is it OK to use Forvo.com to hear the correct pronunciation of words and use them in Misplaced Pages? There are lots of contributors in Forvo from all over the world in 281 languages; they've added more than 1,241,404 words until now. The site lets you hear and download an mp3 file for each word. They use Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0). So is it possible to use their mp3 files in wikipedia? --Yoosef (talk) 13:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Use of Japanese script purely as a pronunciation guide

I would like to hear a wider range of opinions on a subject that is currently under discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan#Kana as a pronunciation guide. The Manual of Style for Japan-related articles recommends that the names of Japanese entities are written as "{{Nihongo|'''Hideki Matsui'''|松井 秀喜|Matsui Hideki}}" in the opening sentence, which renders as Hideki Matsui (松井 秀喜, Matsui Hideki) indicating the English name, Japanese name, and Romanized Japanese name. This style has been around for a long time, and I don't think anyone has any particular problems with it, as it shows how the name is also rendered in Japanese. A problem has however arisen more recently concerning the style that should be used for Japanese entities (particularly entertainers such as Misia or Yui (singer) and bands such as AKB48) with names that are always written in English or the Roman alphabet even in Japanese situations. The Japanese manual of style does not specify a format for such situations, but a small number of editors insist that Japanese script should be added to the lead sentence to indicate the pronunciation, so now we have situations in which the lead sentence of DJ Ozma reads "DJ Ozma (ディージェイ オズマ, Dī Jei Ozuma, stylized DJ OZMA))", even though his name is always written as "DJ Ozma" or "DJ OZMA" in Japanese. The problem I see with this is that it implies that the person's name is also written as "ディージェイ オズマ" in Japanese, which is not true. If a guide to pronunciation is deemed necessary, which might be the case for Misia (as it is pronounced more like "Meesha"), surely it would be more sensible to use IPA, which is more universally understandable to native English readers than Japanese script. I would therefore be grateful if pronunciation/IPA experts here could comment on the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan#Kana as a pronunciation guide, and offer advice on a clear way of indicating pronunciations for Japanese names that conforms to the Manual of Style guidelines concerning pronunciation. --DAJF (talk) 07:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

We're writing in English for people who read English. If the spelling in Roman letters is not enough to indicate pronunciation, use the IPA. "DJ Ozma" and "Yui", for example, are straightforward. The AKB48 page explains how it's read in words which is the best solution; "エーケービーフォーチィーエート" would be absurd. "Misia" is different since it's not Romanised according to usual practice, here we could use . Those who want pronunciation in katakana can go to the Japanese wiki. JIMp _talk·cont 15:21, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. We can give the pronunciation of Misia as mīsha, but to transcribe it as ミーシャ is simply wrong, at least according to WP-jn. Hiragana is not a pronunciation guide on WP-en. However, any names normally written in kana in Japanese should be so written on WP-en, as a guide to the orthography rather than pronunciation. — kwami (talk) 19:00, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The example for internet explorer under technical issues is not rendered consistently

An example is given under the technical issues header to compare rendering with and without using the IPA template. However, the example is not in an image but in text which leads to a situation where it can only be seen as intended by users that are affected by the issue (users using IE). I think it is much more useful for unaffected users to see the example because they do not notice the problem when editing. So maybe it would be better to show an image instead. PinkShinyRose (talk) 16:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Distinction between British, American and Australian: example

The word 'observation' doesn't strike me as an ideal example to show cross-dialectal pronunciation differences. The pronunciations given begin /ɒbs/ but most dictionaries prefer /ɒbz/. RoachPeter (talk) 17:18, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Respell vs USdict

It seems to me that, if we're to avoid being parochial, we should encourage respellings (per WP:Pronunciation respelling key) over US-Dictionary style transcriptions as an accompaniment to IPA, at least in articles that aren't very American in focus (and even then...). For people who aren't familiar with USdict or IPA, the former isn't much help. The respelling key has the virtue of being comparatively intuitive even to people who've never seen it before. The use of small caps for the stressed syllable is an obvious example. Any thoughts? garik (talk) 14:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

If there were a standard US dictionary pronunciation guide, it would be reasonable to use it. As there isn't, I think respelling is better. --Trovatore (talk) 19:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Even before being exposed to the IPA, I never bothered learning the dictionary's system. If there was ever any doubt, I would refer to the guide (or the transcription of similar words) and then forget shortly after. If other Americans are as lazy as I am, they're probably equally as knowledgeable of the US dictionary system(s). — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Dare I go ahead (given a little more time to gather comments) and edit the Project Page to recommend Respellings (over USdict)? garik (talk) 23:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Propose: Where multiple pronunciation of a name exist...

This stems from a dispute at Haile Selassie I:

Propose: that WP:PRONOUNCE be changed for articles about people for whom there are both an Anglicized(i.e. Bastardized) and Native pronunciation of a PERSON'S NAME (also applies to living people); that the Native IPA be the only pronunciation given in the lead and all other pronunciations starting with the Anglicized be listed in a footnote attached to the Native IPA. Or at least that the native IPA be listed first. The reasoning behind this proposal are listed below:

1. Although an English name and therefore an English pronunciation of a place or thing are just as valid as the native name, the same cannot be said for a PERSON'S name. I contend that the current version this MOS leads to a style that is misleading and ignorant. It is tantamount to spreading misinformation for the sake of consistency.
2. Editors have realized this; they have consistently chosen to ignore this MOS and have instead chosen to inform there readers of the proper pronunciation of the name or chosen to remove the IPA all rather than give an English. I have found many many articles where this is true. Many of these articles are FA or GA quality and have gone through thousands of edits and many peer-reviews. The first of these examples demonstrates the desire of articles to deviate from the MOS because it is actually the article used in the example of this MOS:

Template:MultiCol Featured Articles

• Nikita Khrushchev
• Albertus Soegijapranata
• Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
• Émile Lemoine
• Vidkun Quisling
• Toru Takemitsu

| class="col-break " | Good Articles

• Che Guevara
• Rambhadracharya
• Galileo Galilei
• Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
• Sun Tzu

Template:EndMultiCol For more discussion please see Haile Selassie I. ---- አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't there a proposal to move pronunciation information to an infobox? Having two (or more) pronunciations in the first sentence of a lede can be cumbersome, but putting them in an infobox would work pretty well IMHO. — Ƶ§œš¹ 21:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Fine with that with the addendum that the first IPA listed in Biographical articles being the Native language of the person. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 01:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that WP:PRONOUNCE needs revising. I agree with user Ƶ§œš¹. The main issue is that there is too much linguistic information cluttering the lede on names where for example there is an English pronunciation, a name in a foreign script, a transliteration of that script, and the IPA for the language. People have often been dealing with this through bubbles which are not exactly elegant and are rarely formatted consistently. I also believe it is necessary to establish sufficient criteria for when it is appropriate to include English pronunciations. The Russian poet Bakhyt Kenzheev for example does not have a well established Anglicized pronunciaion for his name, and it would probably not be appropriate to include. It only should be added on high profile figures with well-established Anglicized pronunciations. Similar issues have been discussed by other users above, but there has yet to be any action taken on the matter. An explicit consistent policy, and a taskforce to implement it is poorly needed. I also agree with Janweh64 that the native language should come first and the English second. My point on the Haile Selassie page was that the English pronunciation should not be deliberately concealed because of prejudiced beliefs about bastardization. -Devin Ronis (d.s.ronis) (talk) 06:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

First revision of proposal

OLD Examples

Old examples now rejected as still too messy

Template:MultiCol Federal Republic of GermanyBundesrepublik Deutschland ) Flag Coat of arms Motto: Einigkeit und Recht und FreiheitTemplate:De icon Unity and Justice and Freedom Anthem: The third stanza of Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)   Song of the Germans Official languages German Demonym(s) German ISO 3166 code DE Germany (/ˈdʒɜːrməni/ ; Template:Lang-de), officially the Federal Republic of Germany (Template:Lang-de) is a federal parliamentary republic in west-central Europe. The country consists of 16 states, and its capital and largest city is Berlin. Germany covers an area of 357,021 square kilometres (137,847 sq mi) and has a largely temperate seasonal climate. With 81.8 million inhabitants, it is the most populous member state in the European Union. Germany is one of the major political and economic powers of the European continent and a historic leader in many theoretical and technical fields. Notice We can leave most common English pronunciations of names of place and things in the lede without being disruptive.

Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev Никита Сергеевич Хрущёв First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union In office September 14, 1953 – October 14, 1964 President Kliment Voroshilov Leonid Brezhnev Anastas Mikoyan Premier Georgy Malenkov Nikolai Bulganin Himself Preceded by Joseph Stalin Succeeded by Leonid Brezhnev Personal details Born 250px Died 250px Resting place 250px Nationality Soviet Parent 250px Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev (April 15  1894 – September 11, 1971) led the Soviet Union during part of the Cold War. He served as First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964, and as Chairman of the Council of Ministers, or Premier, from 1958 to 1964. Khrushchev was responsible for the partial de-Stalinization of the Soviet Union, for backing the progress of the early Soviet space program, and for several relatively liberal reforms in areas of domestic policy. Khrushchev's party colleagues removed him from power in 1964, replacing him with Leonid Brezhnev as First Secretary and Alexei Kosygin as Premier. Notice: This article has an eligible Anglicized pronunciation that would have to be include, probably above signature in the infobox. Template:EndMultiCol A new parameter would have to be created to list alternate pronunciations at the bottom of an appropriate place in ALL info boxes. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 14:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Survey (NOT SO simple up or down vote)

• Support አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose in its current state — kwami (talk) 07:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I've been asked to review my position in light of the current version of the proposal. However, I don't know what the current version is. I probably still oppose, because the problem is not the pronunciation in the lead, but the opening line gathering a lot of cruft, which may or may not include pronunciation. I have no problem with an article opening with a bolded key word (title) following by a single pronunciation, just as I have no problem with a bio starting with a bolded name following by vital year dates. I oppose blanket removal of pronunciations from the lead, as sometimes that's the best place for them. The MOS already advises that the pronunciation be moved out of the lead if it starts interfering with the flow of the text, but that is no different from having multiple languages and scripts, or places and multiple calendars for vital dates, or any of the other cruft that builds up in our articles. I still think this is best addressed at MOS:LEAD. — kwami (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Consistency is key. All the best, Miniapolis 16:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support moving all pronunciations out of lead. No preference about infobox or footnote placement. Designate (talk) 23:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - seems like a solution in search of a problem. It is in no way too complicated to put the pronunciation in the lede. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Agree that the native language pronunciation is vastly more important than the pronunciation of Anglo/English variants. Also agree that the lead should not be cluttered with two or more pronunciations. Also agree that lead should include the primary pronunciation, because that is what good encyclopedias do. Based on these opinions, it follows that the Anglo/English alternative pronunciations should be in a footnote or Infobox (I have no preference on that). --Noleander (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support giving primacy to native pronunciations, no preference on placement (insofar as I understand what is going on in this mess). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:25, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The idea was to consistently move all pronunciation to footnotes AND the infoboxes of articles while at the same time giving primacy to native pronunciations. My confusing attempts to give examples has certainly created a mess. I am glad to see support to move some if not all pronunciation out of lede. Also, there is quite a consistent support for giving primacy to native pronunciation (which I believe has only one objecting editor). We need more voters or perhaps a voting table for people to indicate what exactly they are supporting and opposing. I am, however, quite discouraged by my failure to have a run a clear discussion and I'm not inspired to create one. I, welcome someone to try to gauge people opinions on the following criteria:

1. Give primacy and include only English pronunciation in lede with all other pronunciation moved as discussed,
2. Same, but giving primacy and including in lede only native pronunciation,
3. Move all pronunciation giving primacy to English,
4. Move all pronunciation giving primacy to native,
5. #2 in Biography articles and #1 in others,
6. #4 in Biography articles but #3 in others.
7. Leave all articles like the inconsistent mess they are now! Heck, we don't need a table.

Just choose your number: I support #6 but will settle for #5, #4 or #2 in that order. — አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 02:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Add discussion of specific concerns below (do not add any more discussion above):

No infobox

I like it. What do we do with articles that don't have infoboxes? Is that when we'd do the footnote option? — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

They can remain in the lead until an infobox is created. I believe the trend is to include an infobox on all articles. It should be an added encouragement to create an infobox. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

There is strong resistance to the idea of adding info boxes to all articles. A lot of editors see them as needless clutter. — kwami (talk) 07:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Whether they like it or not is inconsequential. 9 out of 10 well-developed articles when you press Random article have an infobox. The exceptions being lists and disambiguation pages. — አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh64) (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Especially considering that one of the places that WP:WikiProject Microformats can get consistent metadata is from {{infobox}} based templates. Infoboxes are not going away, and are arguably going to become ever more important for well-written articles as time goes by. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 11:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The longstanding tradition is that all material that is in infoboxes is supposed to also be included in the body of the article; even if the pronunciation is in the infobox it should also be in the article proper. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

This has been addressed by also including them in a footnote attached. Footnotes are considered as part of the body in this case. Actually, they are the recommended method to be used to de-cluttered. Please read discussion and revisions below. — አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 22:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

English pronunciation in infobox

Federal Republic of Germany /ˈfɛdərəlˈrɪˈpʌblɪkˈʌvˈdʒɜːrməni/Bundesrepublik Deutschland )
Flag Coat of arms
Motto: Einigkeit und Recht und FreiheitTemplate:De icon Unity and Justice and Freedom
Anthem: The third stanza of Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)   Song of the Germans
ISO 3166 code	DE

The wording of the proposal makes it seem like the German example is incorrect. Wouldn't the English pronunciation also go somewhere in the infobox? — Ƶ§œš¹ 17:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

When I first wrote the modified proposal, my idea was to move all pronunciation to the info box. But when making examples, I realized that it would not work. It clutters the title box of the infobox. Take a look at the example here and tell me if you agree. We could then move the native pronunciation to the bottom with all the other possible pronunciations but that would be like hiding it. I like the examples above like they are now. In the end, this is the English Misplaced Pages. I don't think there is anything wrong in having pronunciation of the common English name of the country or place or thing. I would rather modify the proposal again to reflect the examples given. Something like:

• Move all non-English AND Anglicized pronunciations to the bottom of infobox leaving ONLY the English pronunciations in NON-biographical articles in the LEAD.
• Most common native pronunciation will be listed under the name at the top of the infobox in all articles. With some explanation of what to do when the native pronunciation is English
• And that the Anglicized name in Biographical articles is considered an alternate pronunciation and therefore belongs at the bottom of the infobox.
• And that biographical articles will contain NO IPA information in the LEAD. This is because with date/place of birth there is already too much there.

Basically, we would categorized pronunciation into three categories: English Names, Native Names and Anglicized Names of People አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 19:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The pronunciation/transcription stuff doesn't have to be at the top, which I think is what makes it look cluttered. I think there's a mountain-related infobox that puts pronunciations at the bottom. — Ƶ§œš¹ 20:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree completely. I only support the infobox where there is too much linguistic information. In articles like for Germany, Ben Bernanke, Sophia Loren, or Manuel Noriega, there is no reason to move the IPA to the infobox because the clutter is not too excessive, like you have with foreign scripts or multiple names. Many WPChina articles put all the Chinese in a box on the side to remove the clutter, like Zhuangzi. I meant something along those lines. A separate infobox for linguistic information when dealing with other scripts, otherwise the IPA whether person or place should remain in the lede. There are many place names with no established English pronunciation, and to say that it's only appropriate to include the English pronunciation for those and put the native pronunciation elsewhere seems out of keeping with the spirit of wikipedia. What should we do about Hajigabul? Just remove the Azeri from the lede? We've got nothing else to put there. I don't see how that's really an issue. The lede in the Venice article would be violating the new policy but I think it's great as it is. -Devin Ronis (d.s.ronis) (talk) 01:07, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

1. THIS PROPOSAL ONLY APPLIES TO ARTICLES WITH NAMES THAT HAVE MULTIPLE POSSIBLE PRONUNCIATIONS! Therefore, this does not apply to Ben Bernanke, and possibly even Hajigabul (I don't know? That article is so bad!)
2. A separate infobox or attached, that is a trivial distinction. But we must draw a clear line for when this guideline should be applied. Saying when it is "too much" is too vague.
3. The "NO IPA IN LEAD" Only applies to biographical articles.
4. I believe Sophia Loren and Manuel Noriega are perfect candidates for this rule. Look how much better they look than their originals (even with OMRI shorten the first line is unreadably cumbersome). Note the very bottom of the info boxes: አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 06:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

No need of IPA for ordinary English

Not sure where this comment should go, because the whole thing is sorta long and involved, but: Seriously? You want to put a pronunciation guide for Federal Republic of Germany? I can't buy that. I understand that not everyone who comes to en.wiki is a native speaker, but it is not our mission to teach people how to pronounce ordinary English. The article should not say anywhere — neither in an infobox nor anywhere else — how to pronounce such an ordinary sequence of common words. --Trovatore (talk) 10:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(Oh, just a detail — I do not believe the /t/ sound in Venezia is geminated.) --Trovatore (talk) 10:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

NO, I do not think we should spell out how to pronounce "Federal Republic of Germany." I only gave that example to explain to Ƶ§œš¹ why I did not also move the English pronunciation for Germany into the infobox. Since people seam to be against my idea to add the pronunciation to the top of the infobox and instead want it lower down in the body of the infobox, that example of Germany's info box no longer seam to matter. Just ignore it. አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

More old examples

More old examples now rejected as still too messy
Template:MultiCol PROPOSED RULES Sophia Loren 1986 Born Sofia Villani Scicolone (1934-09-20) 20 September 1934 (age 90) Pozzuoli , Naples , Italy Nationality Italian Other names Sofia Lazzaro Sofia Scicolone Occupation Actress Years active 1950–present Spouse(s) Carlo Ponti (m. 1957–62, annulled; 1966–2007, his death) Children Carlo Ponti, Jr., Edoardo Ponti Relatives Alessandra Mussolini (niece) English pronunciation /sə'fiə lə'ɹɛn/ Sophia Loren (born Sofia Villani Scicolone on 20 September 1934) is an Italian actress. Loren is widely recognized as the most awarded Italian actress. She was the first actress of the talkie era to win an Academy Award for a non-English-speaking performance, for her portrayal of Cesira in Vittorio De Sica's Two Women. Her other awards include one Golden Globe Award, a Grammy Award, a BAFTA Award and a Laurel Award. In 1995 she received the Cecil B. DeMille Award for lifetime achievements, one of many such awards. Her films include: Houseboat (1958), El Cid (1961), Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow (1963), Marriage Italian-Style (1964), and A Special Day (1977). In later years she has appeared in American blockbusters such as Grumpier Old Men (1995), and Nine (2009). In 1994 she starred in Robert Altman's Prêt-à-Porter, which earned her a Golden Globe nomination the same year. She has also achieved critical and commercial success in TV movies such as Courage (1986).	CURRENT RULES Sophia Loren 1986 Born Sofia Villani Scicolone (1934-09-20) 20 September 1934 (age 90) Pozzuoli , Naples , Italy Nationality Italian Other names Sofia Lazzaro Sofia Scicolone Occupation Actress Years active 1950–present Spouse(s) Carlo Ponti (m. 1957–62, annulled; 1966–2007, his death) Children Carlo Ponti, Jr., Edoardo Ponti Relatives Alessandra Mussolini (niece) Sophia Loren (English: /sə'fiə lə'ɹɛn/, Italian: ; born Sofia Villani Scicolone on 20 September 1934) is an Italian actress. Loren is widely recognized as the most awarded Italian actress. She was the first actress of the talkie era to win an Academy Award for a non-English-speaking performance, for her portrayal of Cesira in Vittorio De Sica's Two Women. Her other awards include one Golden Globe Award, a Grammy Award, a BAFTA Award and a Laurel Award. In 1995 she received the Cecil B. DeMille Award for lifetime achievements, one of many such awards. Her films include: Houseboat (1958), El Cid (1961), Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow (1963), Marriage Italian-Style (1964), and A Special Day (1977). In later years she has appeared in American blockbusters such as Grumpier Old Men (1995), and Nine (2009). In 1994 she starred in Robert Altman's Prêt-à-Porter, which earned her a Golden Globe nomination the same year. She has also achieved critical and commercial success in TV movies such as Courage (1986). Template:EndMultiCol PROPOSED RULES Template:MultiCol Manuel Noriega Manual of Style/Pronunciation Mugshot of Noriega, after his surrender (1990) Maximum Leader of National Liberation In office December 15, 1983 – December 20, 1989 Preceded by Office Created Succeeded by Office Abolished Military Leader of Panama In office August 12, 1983 – December 15, 1989 President Ricardo de la Espriella Jorge Illueca Nicolás Ardito Barletta Vallarino Eric Arturo Delvalle Manuel Solís Francisco Rodríguez Preceded by Rubén Darío Paredes Succeeded by Office Abolished Personal details Born (1934-02-11) February 11, 1934 (age 90) Panama City, Panamá Republic of Panama Alma mater Chorrillos Military School School of the Americas English pronunciation /mænjuˈɛl ˌnɔriˈ(j)eɪgə/ Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno (born February 11, 1934) is a former Panamanian politician and soldier. He was military governor of Panama from 1983 to 1989. In the 1989 invasion of Panama by the United States he was removed from power, captured, detained as a prisoner of war, and flown to the United States. Noriega was tried on eight counts of drug trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering in April 1992. Noriega's U.S. prison sentence ended in September 2007; pending the outcome of extradition requests by both Panama and France, for convictions in absentia for murder in 1995 and money laundering in 1999. France was granted its extradition request in April 2010. He arrived in Paris on April 27, 2010, and after a re-trial as a condition of the extradition, he was found guilty and sentenced to seven years in jail in July 2010. A conditional release was granted on September 23, 2011, for Noriega to be extradited to serve 20 years in Panama. He arrived in Panama on December 11, 2011. OK! So the {{Infobox president}} does not include a |module= or a |child= so I cannot demonstrate this one perfectly but you get the idea.	CURRENT RULES Manuel Noriega Mugshot of Noriega, after his surrender (1990) Maximum Leader of National Liberation In office December 15, 1983 – December 20, 1989 Preceded by Office Created Succeeded by Office Abolished Military Leader of Panama In office August 12, 1983 – December 15, 1989 President Ricardo de la Espriella Jorge Illueca Nicolás Ardito Barletta Vallarino Eric Arturo Delvalle Manuel Solís Francisco Rodríguez Preceded by Rubén Darío Paredes Succeeded by Office Abolished Personal details Born (1934-02-11) February 11, 1934 (age 90) Panama City, Panamá Republic of Panama Alma mater Chorrillos Military School School of the Americas Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno (Spanish pronunciation: , /mænjuˈɛl ˌnɔriˈ(j)eɪgə/; born February 11, 1934)is a former Panamanian politician and soldier. He was military governor of Panama from 1983 to 1989. In the 1989 invasion of Panama by the United States he was removed from power, captured, detained as a prisoner of war, and flown to the United States. Noriega was tried on eight counts of drug trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering in April 1992. Noriega's U.S. prison sentence ended in September 2007; pending the outcome of extradition requests by both Panama and France, for convictions in absentia for murder in 1995 and money laundering in 1999. France was granted its extradition request in April 2010. He arrived in Paris on April 27, 2010, and after a re-trial as a condition of the extradition, he was found guilty and sentenced to seven years in jail in July 2010. A conditional release was granted on September 23, 2011, for Noriega to be extradited to serve 20 years in Panama. He arrived in Panama on December 11, 2011. Template:EndMultiCol VENICE IS ACTUALLY MISSING AN ENGLISH PRONOUNCIATION. It would eventually change and so would be even more cluttered that it is now: Template:MultiCol PROPOSED RULES Venice Venexia Comune Comune di Venezia A collage of Venice: at the top left is the Piazza San Marco, followed by a view of the city, then the Grand Canal, and (smaller) the interior of La Fenice and finally the Island of San Giorgio Maggiore Coat of arms Country Italy Time zone UTC+1 (CET)  • Summer (DST) UTC+2 (CEST) Italian pronunciation        English Pronunciation      /ˈvɛn ɪs/ Venice (Template:Lang-it, Venetian: Venexia or Template:Lang-lat) is a city in northeast Italy sited on a group of 118 small islands separated by canals and linked by bridges. It is located in the marshy Venetian Lagoon which stretches along the shoreline between the mouths of the Po and the Piave Rivers. Venice is renowned for the beauty of its setting, its architecture and its artworks. The city in its entirety is listed as a World Heritage Site, along with its lagoon. Venice is the capital of the Veneto region. In 2009, there were 270,098 people residing in Venice's comune (the population estimate of 272,000 inhabitants includes the population of the whole Comune of Venezia; around 60,000 in the historic city of Venice (Centro storico); 176,000 in Terraferma (the Mainland), mostly in the large frazioni of Mestre and Marghera; 31,000 live on other islands in the lagoon). Together with Padua and Treviso, the city is included in the Padua-Treviso-Venice Metropolitan Area (PATREVE), with a total population of 1,600,000. The name is derived from the ancient Veneti people who inhabited the region by the 10th century BC. The city historically was the capital of the Venetian Republic. Venice has been known as the "La Dominante", "Serenissima", "Queen of the Adriatic", "City of Water", "City of Masks", "City of Bridges", "The Floating City", and "City of Canals". Luigi Barzini described it in The New York Times as "undoubtedly the most beautiful city built by man". Venice has also been described by the Times Online as being one of Europe's most romantic cities.	CURRENT RULES Venice Venezia Comune Comune di Venezia A collage of Venice: at the top left is the Piazza San Marco, followed by a view of the city, then the Grand Canal, and (smaller) the interior of La Fenice and finally the Island of San Giorgio Maggiore Coat of arms Country Italy Time zone UTC+1 (CET)  • Summer (DST) UTC+2 (CEST) Venice (English: /ˈvɛn ɪs/; Template:Lang-it ; Venetian: Venexia ; Template:Lang-lat) is a city in northeast Italy sited on a group of 118 small islands separated by canals and linked by bridges. It is located in the marshy Venetian Lagoon which stretches along the shoreline between the mouths of the Po and the Piave Rivers. Venice is renowned for the beauty of its setting, its architecture and its artworks. The city in its entirety is listed as a World Heritage Site, along with its lagoon. Venice is the capital of the Veneto region. In 2009, there were 270,098 people residing in Venice's comune (the population estimate of 272,000 inhabitants includes the population of the whole Comune of Venezia; around 60,000 in the historic city of Venice (Centro storico); 176,000 in Terraferma (the Mainland), mostly in the large frazioni of Mestre and Marghera; 31,000 live on other islands in the lagoon). Together with Padua and Treviso, the city is included in the Padua-Treviso-Venice Metropolitan Area (PATREVE), with a total population of 1,600,000. The name is derived from the ancient Veneti people who inhabited the region by the 10th century BC. The city historically was the capital of the Venetian Republic. Venice has been known as the "La Dominante", "Serenissima", "Queen of the Adriatic", "City of Water", "City of Masks", "City of Bridges", "The Floating City", and "City of Canals". Luigi Barzini described it in The New York Times as "undoubtedly the most beautiful city built by man". Venice has also been described by the Times Online as being one of Europe's most romantic cities. Template:EndMultiCol You can actually read the first line, instead of having to search the first paragraph for where you are supposed to start reading again. We could even include articles with only an english pronunciation like Ben Bernanke: Template:MultiCol PROPOSED RULES Ben Bernanke /bərˈnæŋki/ : bər-NANG-kee 14th Chairman of the Federal Reserve Incumbent Assumed office February 1, 2006 President George W. Bush Barack Obama Deputy Roger Ferguson Donald Kohn Janet Yellen Preceded by Alan Greenspan 23rd Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers In office June 21, 2005 – January 31, 2006 President George W. Bush Preceded by Harvey Rosen Succeeded by Edward Lazear Member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System In office August 5, 2002 – June 21, 2005 Nominated by George W. Bush Personal details Born Ben Shalom Bernanke (1953-12-13) December 13, 1953 (age 71) Augusta, Georgia, U.S. Political party Republican Spouse Anna Friedmann Alma mater Harvard University Massachusetts Institute of Technology Ben Shalom Bernanke (born December 13, 1953) is an American economist and currently chairman of the Federal Reserve, the central bank of the United States. During his tenure as chairman, Bernanke has overseen the Federal Reserve's response to the late-2000s financial crisis. Before becoming Federal Reserve chairman, Bernanke was a tenured professor at Princeton University and chaired the department of economics there from 1996 to September 2002, when he went on public service leave. From 2002 until 2005, he was a member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, proposed the Bernanke Doctrine, and first discussed "the Great Moderation"—the theory that traditional business cycles have declined in volatility in recent decades through structural changes that have occurred in the international economy, particularly increases in the economic stability of developing nations, diminishing the influence of macroeconomic (monetary and fiscal) policy. Bernanke then served as chairman of President George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers before President Bush appointed him on February 1, 2006, to be chairman of the United States Federal Reserve. Bernanke was confirmed for a second term as chairman on January 28, 2010, after being re-nominated by President Barack Obama.	CURRENT RULES Ben Bernanke 14th Chairman of the Federal Reserve Incumbent Assumed office February 1, 2006 President George W. Bush Barack Obama Deputy Roger Ferguson Donald Kohn Janet Yellen Preceded by Alan Greenspan 23rd Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers In office June 21, 2005 – January 31, 2006 President George W. Bush Preceded by Harvey Rosen Succeeded by Edward Lazear Member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System In office August 5, 2002 – June 21, 2005 Nominated by George W. Bush Personal details Born Ben Shalom Bernanke (1953-12-13) December 13, 1953 (age 71) Augusta, Georgia, U.S. Political party Republican Spouse Anna Friedmann Alma mater Harvard University Massachusetts Institute of Technology Ben Shalom Bernanke (/bərˈnæŋki/, bər-NANG-kee; born December 13, 1953) is an American economist and currently chairman of the Federal Reserve, the central bank of the United States. During his tenure as chairman, Bernanke has overseen the Federal Reserve's response to the late-2000s financial crisis. Before becoming Federal Reserve chairman, Bernanke was a tenured professor at Princeton University and chaired the department of economics there from 1996 to September 2002, when he went on public service leave. From 2002 until 2005, he was a member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, proposed the Bernanke Doctrine, and first discussed "the Great Moderation"—the theory that traditional business cycles have declined in volatility in recent decades through structural changes that have occurred in the international economy, particularly increases in the economic stability of developing nations, diminishing the influence of macroeconomic (monetary and fiscal) policy. Bernanke then served as chairman of President George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers before President Bush appointed him on February 1, 2006, to be chairman of the United States Federal Reserve. Bernanke was confirmed for a second term as chairman on January 28, 2010, after being re-nominated by President Barack Obama. Template:EndMultiCol

I believe as Misplaced Pages develops to include more "Help:IPA for" guides, this new format will allow people to actually use the IPA instead of think of it as that thing they have to skip to get to the article.

አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh) (talk) 06:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Still too messy

I support the idea of streamlining the opening of the lead, but this just shifts the mess elsewhere. See template:infobox planet for a better format, where the template has a dedicated section for names and pronunciation. And where there isn't a template, we can always footnote it.

I tried getting this done with the bio template, but couldn't get very far with it. I don't think addressing it here at PRON will get us what we want. It needs to be at the main MOS and also BIO.

IMO, we should remove a lot more than just the pronunciation: in bios, vital dates should be reduced to the years, with days and locations moved to the body or to the infobox, or both. In all articles, foreign equivalents should be moved out as well, unless they have currency in English texts. They might go in the 2nd line of the lead, in the 2nd paragraph, in the info box, a dedicated section of the text, etc, but the opening line should IMO be cleared of cruft.

I'd prefer:

• Germany, officially the Federal Republic of Germany, is a federal parliamentary republic in west-central Europe.
• Sophia Loren (born Sofia Villani Scicolone, 1934–) is an Italian actress.
• Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno (1934–) is a former Panamanian politician and soldier.
• Venice is a city in northeast Italy ...
• Ben Shalom Bernanke (1953–) is an American economist and currently ...

— kwami (talk) 07:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

We cannot fix everything that is wrong with leads here. SO PLEASE let us limit discussion HERE to what to do with pronunciation. If we deal with problems piecewise, we can actually get something accomplished. This not the right venue for discussing what to do with dates or alternate names. ONLY PRONUNCIATION. Period.

As to using the format in {{Infobox planet}}, I would be TOTALLY for it if that is what people wanted to do. I only had a pronunciation in the top of infoboxes because I did not want people to say we are hiding the pronunciations, which I don't think putting it in the infobox does. I can modify the proposal so that NO IPA appears at the top of infobox but we instead use format in Pluto for example. (BTW I have moved this section to bottom to encourage people to start new discussion there.) 128.8.73.87 (talk) 22:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)— አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh64) (talk) 19:45, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, putting IPA at the top of the infobox looks horrible!

Some time ago I created (expanded?) the Placement section to address concerns like this. We could perhaps make the suggestion firmer. However, I think MOS:LEAD is the real place to craft such a guideline. — kwami (talk) 02:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I strongly, strongly support simplifying the lead sentence exactly as you proposed. —Designate (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes are not part of article content

I can't support this revised proposal. I like the idea that native pronunciation comes first and that if uncommon an anglicized/ignorant one can go in a footnote, but pronunciations cannot simply be shunted into infoboxes. See WP:INFOBOX Help:Infobox: Infoboxes are not part of article content per se. Like navboxes, they are templates, and many forms of reuse of WP content will drop them entirely. Strictly speaking, not one single fact of any kind is supposed to be in an infobox, ever, unless it is already integrated into the main prose of the article. Few articles live up to this standard yet, but that is no reason to make that situation worse by trying to codify a new rule here to force material to appear only in an infobox, in contravention of the long-established rule that we simply don't do that. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 09:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, I think you meant to link to the infobox help page, which says that stuff in infoboxes "should still be present in the main text" (I've modified your post as such). That's pretting damning. Perhaps we should revert back to the original proposal that involves putting long-winded pronunciation information into footnotes. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

So let's put it in the infobox *and* in a footnote. Anything that moves it out of the first sentence is a victory for readers—more accessible (in a generic, non-technical sense), more legible, more reasonable. I agree with kwami's vision of what a lead sentence should look like, and this is one solid step in that direction. —Designate (talk) 23:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

That's a good idea. — Ƶ§œš¹ 01:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I like the idea of doing both. — አቤል ዳዊት (Janweh64) (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I share SMcCandlish's distaste for infoboxes, and I agree with other users that it's pretty unsightly in the infobox. I think kwami's treatment of the lede would be highly detrimental. The infobox works for Chinese (which has its own infobox, it's not placed in the main one) because it's so complex. There is usually Simplified, Traditional, Pinyin, IPA, Wade-Giles, Cantonese, and other dialectal pronunciations, and it is overly cumbersome, but for most other circumstances I believe pronunciation should stay in the lede and don't see the necessity to change. The real necessity is implementation of consistent formatting. Pronunciation is vitally important, because the majority of people reading a Misplaced Pages page have not heard of the subject before and may not know how the topic is normally pronounced or if a norm exists. There is a lot we take for granted too, like the fact that "Friedman" is not pronounced "fried man."

Remember, there are no ignorant pronunciations only ignorant people. No individual chooses the pronunciation established by their language community (unless you do not participate in one because you live on wikipedia). These do not merit special treatment, they are the facts of life regardless of your opinion about it. I do agree with the "if uncommon" clause which should be "if unciteable" since uncommon is far too subjective and not implementable. All that means is that a norm has not yet been established and so the pronunciation variations which exist should not be included.

In response to Janweh64, my guidelines for "too much" were very clear, namely when a foreign script is involved. There was nothing wrong with the Khrushchev article until the Cyrillic was added to the lede which is what tipped it over too far. Two pronunciations is fine and perfectly manageable if not enlightening for the reader, beyond that is when it gets too messy, and I think we would be doing a disservice to readers by sweeping pronunciation into a far-off corner they probably won't see, as is the case for Pluto (though granted for most planets it's not necessary). The MOS says you should put non-roman scripts in the lede in a footnote if it's too cluttered while it does not say to do this with pronunciation. This is perhaps what needs implementing rather than revising the MOS. Also, the distinction you make between people and place names in English is completely trivial. Phonetically Mannheim and Karl Mannheim are not qualitatively distinct. They receive equal treatment from the English language and the Misplaced Pages MOS. -Devin Ronis (d.s.ronis) (talk) 13:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

First, I apologize for adjusting the tabbing, but your comments were not targeted directly to what Designate and Ƶ§œš¹ were discussing.

I don't know what you are trying to get at in the rest of your rant but I disagree with your very last point. A language cannot define a persons name. We may use the standard of most common name to define the TITLE of articles to make them easy to find for readers but we cannot use the same standards to define pronunciation of peoples' names. Remember some of these people are still ALIVE. We have PRESIDENTS and PRIME MINISTERS who names are being mispronounced. We cannot allow this to continue because of your perfect definition of what language is. Perhaps you do not understand how infuriating it is to here your name mispronounced.

Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox

Misplaced Pages is not a scientific journal

The proposal has evolved with discussion so your rant is quite unnecessary. The only distinction between place names and peoples' names will be in the order that they appear. And Ƶ§œš¹, SMcCandlish, Designate all seam to agree with me that the native pronunciation of peoples' names should appear first. And I believe they are all fine with it in the infobox as long as it is also included in a footnote to agree with Help:Infobox and MOS.

Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopiaየኢትዮጵያ ፌዴራላዊ ዲሞክራሲያዊ ሪፐብሊክ ye-Ītyōṗṗyā Fēdēralāwī Dīmōkrāsīyāwī Rīpeblīk
Flag Emblem
Anthem:  Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) March Forward, Dear Mother Ethiopia
Capitaland largest city	Addis Ababa
Recognised regional languages	Other languages official among Ethiopia's various ethnicities and their respective regions
Ethnic groups (2012)	34.5% Oromo 26.9% Amhara 6.2% Somali 6.1% Tigray 4.0% Sidama 2.5% Gurage 2.3% Welayta 1.7% Hadiya 1.7% Afar 1.5% Gamo 1.3% Gedeo 11.3% others
Demonym(s)	Ethiopian
Pronunciation                   /ˌiːθiˈoʊpiə/ the rest of the infobox...

Federal Republic of GermanyBundesrepublik Deutschland
Flag Coat of arms
Motto: Einigkeit und Recht und FreiheitTemplate:De icon Unity and Justice and Freedom
Anthem: The third stanza of Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)   Song of the Germans
Location of Manual of Style/Pronunciation (dark green) – in Europe (green & dark grey) – in the European Union (green)  –
Capitaland largest city	Berlin
Official languages	German
Ethnic groups	81% Germans, 7% other Europeans, 4% Turks, 2% Asian, 6% others
Demonym(s)	German
Pronunciation             /ˈdʒɜːrməni/ the rest of the infobox...

Nikita Khrushchev Никита Хрущёв
First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
In office September 14, 1953 – October 14, 1964
President	Kliment Voroshilov Leonid Brezhnev Anastas Mikoyan
Premier	Georgy Malenkov Nikolai Bulganin Himself
Preceded by	Joseph Stalin
Succeeded by	Leonid Brezhnev
Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Soviet Union
In office March 27, 1958 – October 14, 1964
First Deputies	Frol Kozlov Alexei Kosygin Dmitriy Ustinov Lazar Kaganovich Anastas Mikoyan
Preceded by	Nikolai Bulganin
Succeeded by	Alexei Kosygin
Chairman of the Bureau of the Central Committee of the Russian SFSR
In office February 27, 1956 – November 16, 1964
Deputy	Andrei Kirilenko
Preceded by	Position created
Succeeded by	Leonid Brezhnev
Full member of the Presidium
In office March 22, 1939 – November 16, 1964
Member of the Secretariat
In office December 16, 1949 – October 14, 1964
Member of the Orgburo
In office December 16, 1949 – October 14, 1952
Candidate member of the Politburo
In office January 18, 1938 – March 22, 1939
Personal details
Born	250px (1894-04-15)April 15, 1894 Kalinovka, Dmitriyevsky Uyezd, Kursk Governorate, Russian Empire
Died	September 11, 1971(1971-09-11) (aged 77) Moscow, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union
Resting place	250px
Nationality	Soviet /nɪˈkiːtə sɜːrˈɡeɪ.əvɪtʃ ˈkrʊʃ.tʃɛv/
Parent	250px

Haile Selassie I
Emperor of Ethiopia
Reign	2 November 1930 – 12 September 1974
Coronation	2 November 1930
Predecessor	Zewditu I
Successor	De jure Amha Selassie I (crowned in exile)
Head of State of Ethiopia
Predecessor	Zewditu I
Successor	Aman Andom (as Chairman of the Derg)
Spouse	Empress Menen
Issue	Princess Romanework                          Princess Tenagnework                          Asfaw Wossen                          Princess Zenebework                          Princess Tsehai                          Prince Makonnen                          Prince Sahle Selassie Pronunciation Template:IPA-gez Anglicised        /ˈhaɪli səˈlæsi/ or /səˈlɑːsi/
Names           Tafari Makonnen Woldemikael