Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ryulong (talk | contribs) at 22:40, 15 November 2014 (→David Auerbach). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

One Young World

Why did you encourage Gamergaters to write their own version of the Gamergate Misplaced Pages article?

What is your end goal with this? Integrating it into our article? KonveyorBelt 01:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Err yeah, gotta admit that doesn't look good. An explanation would be good. Were you being sarcastic? serious? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I was being completely serious. There are a great many complaints about our article, and at least some of them are from people who are not raging lunatics. There have been some specific complaints about behavior, and again not all those complaints are wrong nor are they all from raging lunatics. The specific wiki that I pointed people to is a pro-gamergate wiki, and it's a legitimate challenge: if there is a complaint that the Misplaced Pages entry is in violation of Misplaced Pages policies it will be useful to see exactly how.

On twitter, a writer from Slate (a notable publication, obviously) is complaining as well that his views have been unfairly represented in our article. There are repeated complaints that don't strike me as completely wrong that there is a double standard for sourcing with sources which are anti-gamergate being given a pass where they would be challenged as mere blogs if they were pro-gamergate. That's obviously a point worth discussing but (a) twitter is not a very helpful medium for having a serious discussion and (b) the level of drama on the Misplaced Pages talk page is not going to be helped if I just tell them to bring their concerns to the talk page.

So it seems to me that the challenge is a solid way to move things forward. If they are able to produce something that independent and thoughtful Wikipedians agree is validly better than our article in some respects, that will be useful.

For me, when people say "Valid mainstream sources are being ignored or misquoted in the Misplaced Pages entry" I take that very seriously - but it's hard for me to fully evaluate it if the complaint goes no further than that. I'd like to be shown how those who think our article is bad would improve it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to say, I'm totally on board with that reasoning, but if the goal is to have it be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article one day, maybe in the future having them create it in a sandbox area on-wiki would be better? I only mention this because I know that the edit history is seen as part of satisfying the BY portion of the CC-By-SA license, so I don't know if that can get tricky when pulling content from Wikia to Misplaced Pages. Either way, I have to agree that inviting a bunch of SPAs to a talk page doesn't usually help a situation out, and having them come in with fleshed-out ideas of their ideal wording and sourcing is I think not a problem. 0x0077BE 14:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I can think up some positive reasons but the troll potential and the possible bias among editor's opinions outweighs them all. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If there is troll potential, that'll be an issue for the admins of that wiki to deal with. I'm quite sure this is better than me inviting a mass of single purpose accounts to come to the Misplaced Pages talk page.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably to see how they'd phrase some things, and the possibility to add to the article currently here if found within wiki policies/guidelines. When you've spent all the time looking at the article on Misplaced Pages, and not having any attempt to see what the other side would've characterized certain events as, you get a skewed perspective. I'm happy with Jimbo's decision to do such, as it has the benefit of offering the other side the way to contexualize and centralize what happened, and Jimbo a way to see if there are any legitimate things that could be added to the wiki page. Additionally, Misplaced Pages is fragrantly complicated and convoluted. Wikia very much isn't, especially the newly created wikias, and would probably lead to broader participation as a result. The semi protection on the GamerGate talk page also probably doesn't help. Tutelary (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all of that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that 4chan isn't going to take full advantage of this. Its a good idea yes but can have some bad results. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Just strikes me as incredibly divisive and polarising. Oh well, let's see what happens. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how it is divisive and polarising at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Errr, you don't see how two articles in parallel could be polarising.... rather than, say, discussion on one article here...? Umm, yes it can and will. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I also want to add that if it adds to the controversy, Jimbo could get involved in it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• shrug* If they can come up with something useful and usable, more power to them... and if not (and it will be very clear if not) then they will clearly demonstrate why the article needs great attention from experienced editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The article at Wikia couldn't be worse than the one here that's guarded by 5 guys burger and fries. --DHeyward (talk) 05:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The article is actually looking ok (aside from been written by people with no wiki experience) it doesn't make any negative claims (unless you count extreme cynicism of anti-gg's reports of harassment) but it needs A LOT of work and sourcing. I foresee sections of it being used but at the moment it is full of trolls and unsourced opinion. Retartist (talk) 07:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

And if that's all it ever becomes then serious Wikipedians (like me) who have no personal interest in the issue can feel more comfortable that allegations of a small cabal of abusive editors (frequently mentioned in complaints are Tarc and Ryulong) are controlling the article to the detriment of Misplaced Pages are not very persuasive. And if they come up with an article that is well-sourced, neutral, and contains information that ours has omitted due to bias - then Misplaced Pages can be improved.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

More constructive might have been suggesting they talk to journalists and give their side of the story...and if aforesaid journalists write new articles, then they are in reliable sources. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

...which is another approach, not necessarily "more constructive," just something of a different nature. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

What Cas Liber is aiming at is the fact that we have very, very few reliable sources explaining Gamergate's perspective; pointing at marked-up screenshot imgurs and random YouTube videos isn't going to give us anything new to work with there. A large percentage of the issue is that Gamergate supporters believe there is some grand media conspiracy to silence them while the mainstream perspective is that Gamergate's claims have been examined and found wanting. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Comparing the two approaches (just a first thrust at this):

• Advantages (of "talk to the press" approach):
  • An eventual report in the press may be used as a WP:V type of source directly, avoiding, for instance, a second step cleanup like the one (still needed) for the Pajot source (see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 55#Phasing out the forum)
• Disadvantages of "talk to the press" approach:
  • Time delay: it is incertain if and when reporters may decide to publish anything on the subject. Do we want to keep a Misplaced Pages article in kaboots for a day that may never come?
  • When such press publication appears it still may have WP:RS issues, compare e.g. which resulted from such "faction talking to the press" approach, and did not result in an external source that was of much use for the Misplaced Pages article it was discussing.
  • When such external publication appears there is more risk of uncertainty that we really get to know what the insiders may see as an equilibrate article, and which third party sources they would primarily rely on.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 10:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the fourth disadvantage of the "talk to the press" approach is that, when there are claims that journalistic integrity is a significant component of the gamergate controversy, there then becomes distrust in the neutrality of articles appearing in the press on the subject.

I applaude this suggestion of Jimbo's. I feel that much work is needed on the article, to try to reconcile it with the large number of sources on the Internet which apparently contradict it, yet do not appear to be the work of raging lunatics. This could be a significant step forward in that direction. --Mrjulesd (talk) 10:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Initially I was supportive of this idea, but now I don't see it ending well. Let's assume a best case scenario - 1000's of people get together and produce a mostly NPOV pro-GamerGate article, some of which might be used to better balance the one we have. Is this what they were after? Because I'm fearful that they believe that they have been offered an opportunity to write their own version of the article which may be used as a replacement for the one here, and, in all honesty, I don't see that happening. (Reading through 8Chan, that appears to be the least of what they believe they can achieve with this article). Assuming that they do write a decent article, what do you see as happening next, and will that be enough? - Bilby (talk) 13:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: If parts are copied over, how are we going to attribute it? Retartist (talk) 04:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

(not Jimbo Wales.) By linking to the history of the Wikia article in the edit summary when you add or paraphrase the Wikia content into the Misplaced Pages version. When you make changes to the WP article that are inspired by the Wikia article, even if you're not using their text, you should acknowledge the source somehow; maybe by linking to the relevant version of the Wikia article in the WP edit summary. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

A clear case of Jimbo once again outsmarting himself. All this does is further the divide on Misplaced Pages with systemic bias. As if the harassed and those that abhor such tactics won't take stuff like this as a slap in the face. Meanwhile, most reliable sources have the 'issue' well documented, despite the large troll infestation. Jimmy should next visit 8chan and /b/, to invite them to start writing articles about women. Dave Dial (talk) 08:04, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

A possible broader picture: distrust of primary sources

What may be (one of?) the underlying issues of this is Misplaced Pages's difficulty of dealing with WP:PRIMARY sources:

• Official policy (WP:PRIMARY) is to be extra careful when using primary sources;
• This often turns into wholesale "distrust" of primary sources: avoid them, scoop them out with a bulldozer, well, who wants to put time and effort in being "careful" when a nuclear option is so much more simple?

My take on this is that articles can't really become equilibrated, a.k.a. WP:NPOV, when primary sources are barred entirely. Not wanting to speak for anyone else, but I think Jimbo is concerned about this too.

Compare current efforts at:

• WT:NPOV#WP:BALASPS to get the WP:BALASPS section of that policy on a better track, balancing what sources have to say about themselves with what what others have to say about them.
• Template talk:Primary sources#WP:ABOUTSELF/WP:BLPSELFPUB caveat, the template being currently an indiscriminate statement in favour of the "nuclear option" on primary sources, overriding policy (not only WP:PRIMARY, but also WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:BLPSELFPUB). My Template-protected edit request on 8 November 2014 which (with a minimal community interest in the topic) seems to have consensus to at least make the template no longer contradict policy, is still awaiting implementation.

(My interest in this was spurred by the ACIM issues, which still seem far from being solved) --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Francis, as it appears you're not entirely familiar with the Gamergate matter, we have to entirely almost entirely reject primary sources there because it involves a number of highly-sensitive claims made about living people, and we're simply not going to repeat anonymous bloggers' claims about people's personal lives. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I'm completely unaware of Gamergate, never heard of it, and didn't even click the links in this talk page section (my bad). Re. "we have to entirely reject primary sources because it involves a number of highly-sensitive claims made about living people", well, *that* kind of assertion I can interpret immediately, and without knowing *anything* about the Gamergate content matter, to be contradicting current policy: WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:BLP (see most applicable section links to these policies in what I said before) — note: we're talking crucial "core" content policy here, not some accessory guidance open to a wider interpretation for implementation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:00, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

(A somewhat older involvement in this: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source) --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I should qualify my statement with "almost." Yes, there are a very few places where primary sources might be usable, where a person is saying something uncontroversial about themselves. But the vast majority of primary sources are entirely inappropriate for articles related to this issue. WP:BLP is core content policy, not "accessory guidance," and it ensures that we don't become a vehicle for republishing scurrilous, unfounded or outright libelous material about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, gee, you didn't have any problem using primary sources to smear my name when your inference was completely false and you were apparently trolled (I don't read 8chan/4chan/reddit, don't get email and certainly don't participate). Then you refused to retract it. Didn't stop you from reposting a primary source that is completely wrong though. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a hypocritical liar. --DHeyward (talk) 16:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I was specifically listing WP:BLP as one of these core policies above. Well, anyway, if you could concentrate more on which primary sources (and which material contained in them) are eligible for use in the Misplaced Pages article on Gamergate (which would be a positive implementation of WP:ABOUTSELF — the non-BLP part of this — while being watchful to avoid WP:BLP issues, I suppose), instead of throwing it all out based on a misreading of WP:BLP, I think you'd be taking a big step in the right direction. And Jimbo's invitation (which to me reads like: create a primary source free of BLP issues and we'll see what we can do) is collaborative to that effort. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There really aren't any primary sources so eligible, because the whole thrust of Gamergate is centered around making allegations of wrongdoing by identifiable living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that much I understood. But going from "(virtually no) primary sources so eligible" to finding out and exploiting what *is* eligible per Misplaced Pages policy is the change of mindset that would do a lot of good here imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Reorg

The above is an interesting experiment but what the Pedia should do is re-think its organization (which would address due weight, and have the side benefit of cutting out most editorial dysfunction): Merge the article into a paragraph of Video game culture and let the rest of the winds blow elsewhere (or blow themselves out), at least until the academic studies come in. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I see a similar state of denial regarding validity of sources in that: in Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources "academic studies" is only one of many sets of possible sources (and even then, usually primary regarding the actual study results).

Once there are enough third-party reliable sources on a topic it can have its separate article (call it "notability" or whatever: insider primary sources play no part in establishing a topic merits its separate article)

Once there is a separate article, insider primary sources can and often should be considered to build the article content in a NPOV way. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Denial of what? Deny a platform for personal opinions and tabloid fodder is what we do. (And academic studies of a social movement are not going to be a primary source -- its not a medical study). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I meant, the denial to see primary sources sanctioned by policy (or in the variant, sources outside scholarship) as valid sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of primary sources is problematic centering on WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, especially in the SYNTH and DUE aspects - that's not "denial", that's "understanding of" There are also often WP:RS problems in that there is no editorial control, nor reputation for fact checking/accuracy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:19, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedian of the year

Mr. Wales, you've named Ihor Kostenko (from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages, deceased on Euromaidan) Wikipedian of the year for 2014. Are you going to send his award ($5,000)) to his family? Regards.222.187.222.118 (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Russia plans alternative version of 'Misplaced Pages'

"Analysis of this resource showed that it is not capable of providing information about the region and life of the country in a detailed or sufficient way," the state news agency RIA quoted a statement from the presidential library as saying. "The creation of an alternative Misplaced Pages has begun."--♦IanMacM♦ 18:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

See User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 159#Russian alternative to Misplaced Pages (April 2014).

—Wavelength (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Homophobia in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages!!!

Hello. I'm open gay Wikipedian from Ukraine. I want to report a homophobic activities of some administrators and patrol Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. Present direct and indirect discrimination. Related articles LGBT renamed, removed or changed beyond recognition and biased their content. LGBT friendly accused of "advocating LGBT"! There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages and is unrelated to common sense and the rules of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages Misplaced Pages, homophobes administrators and patrol called a "collection of information" and promote "non-traditional values." Homosexuality Article in Ukrainian Misplaced Pages entitled "homosexualist." And Article hey do not have any relation to the topic of the article. There napsyano of MSM and that gays - spread the AIDS disease. User A1 promotes orthodox attitudes to homosexuality and phaye information on how it relates to LGBT church in the paper, which is irrelevant. The new administrator Green Zero has deleted many categories and articles on LGBT issues. particular category of gay writers. Me and other LGBT participants repeatedly verbally humiliated publicly. Addiction is especially thorough and biased. Although we attempt to write quality articles as possible and have contributed enough respect. That our existence they and other homophobes recognized as "LGBT propaganda." I and other LGBT Wikipedian very simple somehow affect this entire situation because this is unacceptable - it bullinh and in direct violation of not only LGBT rights in Ukraine but also the rules of Misplaced Pages! Thank you! Please help! --Rayan Riener (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Rayan Riener: Bystander here. I have added a POV template to the first article you linked to. Although I do not speak your language, Google Translate shows that the article is not very neutral. Could someone who speaks Ukrainian read the linked pages and tell us about them? --Tony Tan · talk 03:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Another bystander here with no opinion about content. The title of the first article is "Homosexual Propaganda" so it's reasonable to expect that there would be non neutral information there. There's a different article called "Homosexuality" that seems a lot more reasonable to me at first glance. If this is a content dispute, has it been addressed on the article talk page? I know the language, but maybe not as well as a native speaker. This example is a proposal to rename the article. The title is not ""homosexualist" like is being claimed. The proposal is to rename the article from "Societal attitudes toward homosexualism" to "Societal attitudes toward homosexuality." The discussion on the proposal talks about how the words related to homosexuality are not native to the Ukrainian language. All versions of the word are adaptations of English. So the discussion is about what's the right word to use "homosexuality" or "homosexualism."

According to the user page, User:Rayan Riener claims to know Ukrainian, so my question is why are they not on the Ukrainian WP addressing this on the talk page there? What is being claimed in this English request is not reflected on the article. "There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages" --- I see the same article in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish, and they're not recent, they've been there for years. I don't know if Rayan Riener is fluent in English, but this request makes no sense to me. USchick (talk) 04:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Could it be that User:Rayan Riener does not understand English well and wrote the above post with the help of a machine translation? The user, "Green Zero" (admin), mentioned does seem to have replaced some instances of "homosexual" with "gay:" here, but I cannot make a judgement as I cannot understand the language without the help of Google Translate. However, that action was eventually reverted by another editor. Just out of curiosity, are there any articles named "Homosexual Propaganda" in other wikis besides what you mentioned? I know that on enwiki, it redirects to a more neutral section on Societal attitudes toward homosexuality. --Tony Tan · talk 05:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Based on their edit history, it's very possible that User:Rayan Riener has a very limited proficiency in English and contributes with assistance, electronic for very simple things, and a secretary for more complicated things like this request. Their user page is written in third person, like a famous person's profile. If they contribute in other languages, their profile is not linked to their English profile, and being from a region not friendly to their needs, there may be a good reason for this, so I'm assuming good faith. As far as I can tell, Rayan Riener is unhappy with the actions of admins on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. It's hard to tell what those actions are, because we don't know his identity there, so I can't track the actual edits. Rayan Riener doesn't have a talk page, and even if he did, I'm not sure he would be able to use it, but it's worth a try if someone wants to do that. As far as "Homosexual propaganda" article, it exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish. The title reflect the actual term used in other languages and in parliament to write laws for several countries including Latvia. If they're legislating "Homosexual propaganda" people need to know what it means. In the lede it does a good job of explaining what the term means to both sides, those who do and do not support the idea of homosexuality. And it's written in a neutral tone. Both Russian and Ukrainian articles seem fine in the lede. I can't speak for Polish. In the Russian version, it even explains that "propaganda" is not used in the traditional sense, that it's a combined term. Yes, that's correct. It's a combination of two words that means something different than each word individually. In English "Homosexual propaganda" means something totally different, that's why it redirects. An example of a combined term in English would be "pretty cool" where each word separately means something different. It's also possible that Rayan Riener only speaks English, which would explain his outrage. USchick (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Rayan Riener I have to edit here as an IP because I am community banned here on English Misplaced Pages. But let me address some of the issues you have raised here. For the record, I am queer myself. :)

I have discussed the issues you raised above with some editors from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages, and in no particular order, the following needs to be raised:

1. A checkuser on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages found that you have been "abusing" multiple accounts. In addition to your Rayan account, you also were using uk:User:Kvitka Cvit. Whilst this in itself is not a problem if you are creating content, like I have, where you ran into trouble is.....
2. at this category discussion.
3. on Misplaced Pages, we don't tend separate "gay" or "lesbian" from "LGBT" topics. Simply put, human sexuality is a complex subject and LGBT covers-all.
4. many of the comments in that discussion from uk:Користувач:A1 are, I agree, totally unacceptable. Being a board member of Wikimedia Ukraine, A1 should take stock of what they have said there and think whether some of their comments were appropriate (they are not!), and perhaps Wikimedia Ukraine members should think whether his comments truly are representative of Wikimedia projects.
5. the articles you mention which were deleted, there are several issues:
   1. This was deleted for being a copyvio of this.
   2. This was deleted for not being notable. It is available here and it simply isn't notable.
   3. Likewise this was deleted for similar reasons. It is apparently a yaoi manga by uk:Камо_Набако, whom himself does not appear to be notable.
   4. There were several other deletions of non-notable garage bands and the like.
   5. There were also several machine translations of articles. Don't use machine translations on articles, do natural translations.
6. Apparently you sent invites to over 100 editors on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages inviting them to join an LGBT WikiProject. Whilst a project for LGBT subjects would be an excellent idea, it's apparent that posted invites to random editors, many of whom have not shown an interest in editing those subjects. Targeted invites to editors whom had shown interest in those subjects would have been a better idea.

On the general issue of so-called gay propaganda, I can attest that uk:Пропаганда гомосексуалізму is an absolutely horrific article. We need to remember that Misplaced Pages is the sum-of-all human knowledge, not just the sum of all Ukrainian knowledge, or Russian knowledge, or American knowledge. It is similar to Gay agenda here on this project, in that it does not present a worldwide view of the subject, and yes, all of these articles could do with a lot of work. Just be sure to aim for neutrality when editing and cover all points of view from a worldwide viewpoint. Good luck. 175.106.47.131 (talk) 10:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I should add that uk:Користувач:A1's views on this matter do not represent WMUA's position in any way. I, also being member of the board of WMUA, was actually opposing him in one of the discussions. Sincerely, Yury Bulka (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@175.106.47.131:@Russavia: This is off topic, but I see that you are a sysop on Commons, so out of curiosity, I would like to ask why you were banned here? It seems strange. Thanks, Tony Tan · talk 21:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tony Tan 98: Extensive block log here. Looks like harassment, edit warring, various other things. 0x0077BE 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

OMG!

Beeb always used to link to Misplaced Pages ...Do they not know Misplaced Pages's arcane rules means is more accurate? Stacie Croquet (talk) 01:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

David Auerbach

Are messages like this what you had in mind when you extended the olive branch?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:11, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ryulong, please stop groundlessly accusing me of "threatening" you on my talk page and the Gamergate talk page. It is not appreciated. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Saying he threatened you is shameful and should be dealt with Loganmac (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

A request that accuses me of slander, even if it is accompanied by the word please and the request that I never write about this man again is questionable. And I have not used the word "threat" on this page. When several editors who have been involved in disputes with me in the past and all have sent messages to Mr. Auerbach informing him of my wrongdoings, I feel as if there is an effort by these editors to utilize Mr. Auerbach's clout to their advantage. Loganmac in particular has been vicious to me in offsite social media where he heaps been spreading the lies about me at encyclopedia dramatica to the rest of the offsite collusion against me on Misplaced Pages.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

And Russavia chiming in against me is really sweet.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Ryulong: It isn't clear what you expect Jimbo Wales or the WMF to do, or why you are being so hostile here. If you think that either a new editor or an unregistered editor is a ban-evading sockpuppet, you know where sockpuppet investigations are. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Because Jimbo was in direct contact with Mr. Auerbach before he edited Misplaced Pages early this morning and this afternoon to get me banned at the behest of all of these other editors.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:08, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

And also Russavia was heavily editing this page when I left my message earlier in the day (, , ). I'm fairly certain those have all been blocked for evasion and being proxies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have since apologized to Mr. Auerbach for my actions over the past 12 hours.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)