Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by DungeonSiegeAddict510 (talk | contribs) at 04:44, 18 November 2014 (→A barnstar for you!: new WikiLove message). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Hi

I'm sorry you felt you were paraphrased wrong via my paraphrasing of Elias Isquith's piece but do not make this request of me again. I have no agenda no matter what the assholes trying to discredit me on Reddit say about me. You wrote a divisive piece. Someone criticized you. I wrote about that criticism and may have been inaccurate. Get over it or make a correction that can be cited and used as a counterpoint. I am not going to abide by your ridiculous demands that I never write about you again. For a journalist you're certainly very adamant that people who you think are against you be censored.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ryulong, I would like you to explain how I "threatened" and "demanded" anything. I made a polite request (the title used "Please", even) that seemed quite reasonable in light of what had happened. And now I politely ask that you rescind your statement that I "threatened" and "demanded" things of you. Thank you. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Auerbachkeller, I appreciate the note you left. Ryulong removed it, which means (to us Misplaced Pages editors) that he read it. That he chose not to answer it on his talk page, ah well. At any rate, I suggest you don't bring this up again on his talk page: he's not going to change his mind and, as odd as it may seem, he may claim you're harassing him.

  Ryulong, I'm beginning to have serious questions about your judgment; calling Auerbach's piece "divisive" is nonsensical since every single article on this topic seems to be divisive, and his is certainly more nuanced than some others (you may disagree with the contents, of course). Besides, your invocation of the c-word makes little sense either. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Drmies, Thank you for the tips, I will not comment on his page. On the other hand, I'm not thrilled with Ryulong's statement that I "threatened" him (nor with his bizarre appeal to Wales, but that much is his right). I've made this known to him above. This reinforces my belief that he is out to get me for some incomprehensible reason, and that this may continue to be a problem for me. I would also like to ask how I can make a statement on the Gamergate page arbitration request concerning this matter, since, as you say, it seems likely Ryulong is not going to change his mind. I seem to be unable to add a new section (not being "confirmed"?) Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry to hear that he is troubling you, sir. Ryulong has definitely violated normal Misplaced Pages's civility tenants by repeatedly announcing your post as a "threat", but few editors want to get involved with Ryulong. This Gamergate controversy is fast becoming one of the biggest messes in our histor and rather than trying to be a pillar of stability, Ryulong seems to be fueling the conflict with such behavior. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:46, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• My recommendation would be that editors get involved. This is not good. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• And when I countered his abuses, I was almost removed from the site because it was viewed as "noise". It is a complete insult to our policy that Ryulong go beyond our "3 Revert Rule" with "15 reverts" and get off scot-free. Here is the report. @Tutelary: has watched numerous times Ryulong persist in edit warring beyond 3RR and @Nick: has previously blocked Ryulong for several of the most egregious acts I've ever seen. The fact Ryulong was a former Administrator makes it all the worse. If I was able to, I'd have indefinitely blocked Ryulong for violating the General Sanctions under numerous policies including WP:CONDUCT. It just boggles the mind that someone with Ryulong's background and history can so violate a core policy, repeatedly, and do so with impunity. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Chris I am appalled that you are actively trying to get a prominent person to have me banned from Misplaced Pages because he is upset with me citing someone else's criticism of his writing. There is no reason for you to have gotten involved in this other than our prior personal disputes and that is frankly disgusting.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to stay off your Talk page but you can still comment on mine? That hardly seems fair. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know--yes, it's semi-protected but I thought the "confirmed" bit would take care of that. Tell you what, I'll ping the MacDaddy Of All Things Technical And So Much More, Writ Keeper. What you could also do is make some article edits and improve the project! Surely you know more than just gamer thingies...?

  Now, if you do decide to leave a note there, go to the "Statement by {other user}" section (I just added it) and click "edit" there, and follow the instructions. Don't make it personal, keep it brief and to the point: TLDNR is a favorite response here. Drmies (talk) 17:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you, I have made a short statement. If you happen to see any problems with it, please do let me know. I tried to place the relevant edits in with a minimum of elaboration. And apologies, but my enthusiasm for making edits to Misplaced Pages is somewhat low at the moment.

General Advice

Regarding this. That arbitration request is probably the wrong place for that, the arbitration case hasn't even been accepted yet and won't move that fast. You probably want Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Alternatively, if you'd like some advice from more experienced editors Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance is a good place to start. — Strongjam (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

That's assuming you want an admin to look at it and take action. If you just want the arbitrators to take it into consideration in the case then just ignore me. — Strongjam (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I have posted a new section to the ANI reflecting this incident. Auerbachkeller (talk) 19:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Going to go reread The Trial now because it's less complicated. If you all can agree on what I'm supposed to do, please post it here, since I can't promise to check every other place reliably for feedback. Thank you.

Sorry. I should have just sent you to WP:EA for advice on how to resolve the dispute. On a personal note, Ryulong has been attacked quite a bit off-site, so I'm inclined to have sympathy for him. I'd suggest Ryulong just agree to retract the 'threatening' comment and you both go your separate ways. I won't inject myself into this anymore then that. — Strongjam (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Drmies advised me not to confront Ryulong further, and I am inclined to take this advice. It has already been told to me that what happens off-site doesn't matter with regard to actions on Misplaced Pages, so your statement of sympathy seems odd. In light of the contradictory, Kafkaesque advice I'm getting from all corners despite the now repeated slanders leveled in my direction, my patience is frankly wearing thin. I have followed your advice, I have made my serious concerns known, it should be very clear this reflects poorly on Misplaced Pages as a whole, and in my opinion the onus is on Misplaced Pages as a whole to deal with it at this point and ensure that nothing further happens. Auerbachkeller (talk) 20:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

If you happen to see him retract it, do let me know. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps 'threatening' is an incorrect description of your 'demand' of Ryulong not to mention or cite you on Misplaced Pages. You can point out that you were paraphrased incorrectly, or that the source is incorrect, but you don't get to dictate who can or cannot cite or mention you on Misplaced Pages. Saying that, Ryulong should now let others handle David's complaints or issues. Dave Dial (talk) 21:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Who was dictating? I made a polite request which, in light of the circumstances, was utterly reasonable. Instead of agreeing or declining civilly (or, god forbid, even apologizing), he chose to say, falsely, that I was threatening him. Please don't attempt to turn this around on me. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

What do you want me to retract? No one is allowed to edit Gamergate controversy for another week and the questioned piece has been better written.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:11, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Since this is my Talk page, I will answer and say that what you're being asked to retract is the false accusation you twice made that I "threatened" you. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Retractions made.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

An apology for those false accusations you have now retracted would also be greatly appreciated. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry that I overreacted to the events of the past 12 hours. I cannot really excuse my actions, but I hope that you will understand that I have been subject to harassment due to my actions on Misplaced Pages regarding this event that at least one person who had contacted you here has been fomenting.

I would also like to say I certainly did not mean any harm with my original contribution regarding Elias Isquith's piece on Salon. I am not a professional writer by any means. I have also spent the past two years immersed in a language that is as far from English as possible and I constantly find myself second guessing things I've written.

Emotions and my shoddy writing should not have resulted in all of this and for that I am sorry.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

This is appreciated, but unfortunately, some apologies can come too late. You also still do not appear to grasp the sheer seriousness here, which does not merely concern you but Misplaced Pages in toto. Long after it was clear to everyone that I had done no such thing as "threaten" you, you continued to pile on unsupported criticisms of me on ANI, Jimmy Wales' page, and elsewhere. You resisted making even the slightest concession, instead excusing your behavior on personal grounds. I too have been suffering harassment and yet somehow I have been able to avoid slinging baseless accusations around. It was only after multiple senior editors/admins repeatedly spoke firmly to you and told you that there would be severe consequences that you turned and apologized. Apologies made under such duress are worth very little, I have learned, and I regret to say I cannot accept yours. Auerbachkeller (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

You asked for an apology and I gave you a sincere apology and now you say it's pointless?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I did not say it was pointless. After considering your apology and the matter for some time, I found myself unable to accept your apology. Apologies are not a guaranteed panacea. That's not to say I do not appreciate the apology, only that I cannot accept it. I in fact wish that I could, as it would make this matter easier for me, but I cannot very well lie and pretend to have accepted it.

As you have now quickly returned to criticizing me harshly, I find it that much more difficult to AGF and have faith in your sincerity. I'm sorry. Auerbachkeller (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Routine procedural notice

Please read this notification carefully:
A community discussion has authorised the use of general sanctions for pages related to the Gamergate controversy.
The details of these sanctions are described here.

General sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, our standards of behaviour, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged here. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

Gamaliel (talk) 20:20, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

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Civility Barnstar

		The Civility Barnstar
		For dealing with uncivil people in civil and calm manners! Loganmac (talk) 21:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo talk

Hello Auerbachkeller, several questions for you have been posted at User talk:Jimbo Wales. If you would respond on that page, it would be appreciated. Thank you. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi Alanscottwalker thanks for letting me know. Those questions seem to concern a matter that is now closed (the offending text has been removed). If you're really curious, please email me via my website and I'll answer there. Since other matters remain open at ANI, I don't want to get into more disputes until the current ones are resolved, lest the issue explode that much further. After the toxic dosage of WP drama I've inhaled over the last couple days, I'm trying to keep as low a profile as possible on WP. (Being repeatedly attacked by Ryulong and Tarc took its toll on me, and I know when to withdraw.) Posting to Wales' page is pretty much the opposite of keeping a low profile. Ryulong is still angry at me and continued to criticize me after I was unable to AGF and accept his apology, so unless ANI needs more info from me...I'm out. Again, sorry. Auerbachkeller (talk) 15:14, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks, as others have said there, your use of the term "slander" seems problematic. See generally, WP:NLT, as it is likely to chill debate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

"Slander" is spoken. It's use would not constitute a legal threat any more than calling someone a "liar" is a legal threat. Rather it's a misunderstanding of how to say "false" in written word. Our WP:LIBEL BLP policy certainly trumps NLT with a giant sledgehammer of policy, foundation policy and and specifically says that even "false light libel" is not okay. Raising the issue is not actionable especially with WP:BITE. In fact, libel in any form should be raised every single time it is encountered and use whatever language is appropriate to highlight it. --DHeyward (talk) 19:56, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

At this point I feel certain editors are trying to criticize me and my case from any possible angle with the ulterior motive of protecting Ryulong. Maybe not the case, but that's the feeling I get. Doesn't feel even-handed. Auerbachkeller (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Apologies on Misplaced Pages

Hello, I am not particularly familiar with the content about which all these disputes are.

However, the was some effort to inform you (on the WP:ANI) that editors are not required to make apologies on Misplaced Pages.

That is true up to a point. At the point of punishment, for anything more than a minor issue, it is standard to require of an editor that they acknowledge their wrong doings, and, make it appear as though they understand and would avoid any more issues. You know, reality.

You are likely to take what you have been given on good faith, as nobody has bothered to put you straight, and that's when people question why each other are here, and that's when it is no longer about encyclopaediac content. ~ R.T.G 19:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay...I'm aware of all of that. In my opinion, Ryulong pretty clearly does not understand and is not going to avoid more issues. But that's just my opinion. Auerbachkeller (talk) 21:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I call it "par for the course". For those who do not understand why it was problematic, Devil's Advocate actually pointed out why on Jimbo's page. I've known Ryulong for almost two years and the sum of the interactions comes to a matter of mindset. Ryulong genuinely wants to improve and defend Misplaced Pages, but his methods are counterproductive and grow the problem. The cases are all pretty simple: In a conflict a reasonable editor will walk away early on, sensing that it is not worth the time on trivial issues. An idealist or a well-meaning individual can discuss at extreme length to Ryulong and still not make progress, leading to the first case. A stubborn editor will entrench push back - making Ryulong dig in even more. A novice editor or a bad faith troll will make Ryulong flip out, likely get blocked and return to pester him and only make Ryulong more embattled and bitter over any issue. For Ryulong, Gamergate veered into this area and now the entire topic and all the opposition is validating his "they are all against me, they all have an agenda". Ryulong doesn't have an agenda, but he never backs down from confrontation and does not accept responsibility. He blew off Jimbo Wales, repeatedly, and you do not need to be a psychiatrist to figure out why your interactions didn't go any better. I'm sorry Auerbachkeller, but I am sure you are able to confirm my words with simple research into the matter. Also, this post will almost certainly be noticed and responded to by Ryulong - twisting it into some perverse personal grudge or whatever as validation of my presence here. I have colleagues wrapped up in this, and given my history - my few comments on the situation are warranted - like your own. Sorry you came to Misplaced Pages under such conditions - it is really a nice place in the less controversial areas. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	I'm gonna get a big spite and a horrible amount of vitriol, but the fact that you came to this hostile, antagonist environment (which you've now personally experienced) just shows how much courage you have. Some things could've done better, especially nipping this in the bud, but I'm glad you've given it its chance. Tutelary (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, it's been interesting. And this is about the funniest thing I've read all week:

You shouldn't worry about this at all; if anyone misrepresents your writings on Misplaced Pages, someone else will correct them. It’s precisely the same situation as you would face if your book were reviewed in, say, TLS, by someone whom you think dislikes you and who, in any case, doesn't adore your book. As you doubtless know, attempting to address this directly is known as an Author’s Big Mistake. That's why people are urging you to drop the stick and back away. You've received more than you could reasonably have expected here; let it go. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm still smiling. Auerbachkeller (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	I'm sorry you had to bear witness to the cronyism going on at Misplaced Pages lately, one person quipped "Its all CSPAN up in there". That doesn't even begin to capture the amount of insanity here. But that ANI thing was akin to a kangaroo court. I hope you return to edit some say in the future, when there's less bs going on. -- DSA510 Pls No H8 04:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)