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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cinteotl (talk | contribs) at 04:01, 6 December 2014 (Undid revision 636819150 by John Carter (talk) rm private personal information.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Grounds for SPI?

Just curious if there is officially any grounds for asking for a SPI based on Fearofreprisal's earlier statements to the effect that he has been an editor here for several more years than that account is active and that there is I think some grounds for thinking, giving the nature of this particular username, that it may well be an alternate account of an editor who wishes to not have these particular edits associated with his/her other username. John Carter (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, that still borders on fishing. NativeForeigner 04:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

New parties?

I noticed Kww was recently added as an involved party. I'm not sure if other editors knew about that. More importantly, Robert McClenon has added evidence against uninvolved editor IseeEwe which has been brought forward to the workshop. This editor should be added as an involved party and notified accordingly if this is going to be allowed. Ignocrates (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick, what's going on with admitting this evidence? This person has a right to defend himself in arbitration and the evidence page is closing in two days. Also, since Kww is now considered an involved editor are you going to move his opening statement to the main page from the talk page? Ignocrates (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• I do not see any point in adding the Kww statement to the main page, but I did add it to the evidence page.
• Kww was added to the list of named parties on 24 October, only one day after the case pages were created.
• I asked @Robert McClenon: to inform @IseeEwe: and will be lenient regarding the evidence closure date
• I do not believe it is our usual practice to treat every editor mentioned in the evidence phase as a named party. --S Philbrick(Talk) 14:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this. I agree with your last point, but I decided to say something when the evidence was brought forward to the workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Iban between Ignocrates and John Carter modification

For the limited scope of this case the interaction ban between these users is loosened. They can comment on each others proposals in constructive and idea based ways. They should still avoid commenting on each other outside of this case. All in all use good judgment, and if not sure, ask me. NativeForeigner 09:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. Ignocrates (talk) 14:12, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Misread WP:BANEX to think that it applied to "legitimate dispute resolution" in general, perhaps involving both individuals in a related dispute resolution not related to the ban itself, not just specifically to interaction bans. Sorry about that, but thank you for the exemption in this instance. John Carter (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

PD Date

As a general note, I may be 1-2 days late with the PD. I'll be travelling until the very beginning of december, and it may take a bit longer than 2-3 days to assemble a PD. We will see. NativeForeigner 07:39, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I honestly can't see any valid reason for anyone to complain if you do take a little longer than usual at this time of year. Thank you for taking on the case, and all the cases you arbs have to take on, in any event. John Carter (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Root of the problem

As this case moves forward to an imminent proposed decision, I'm struck by how much of this dispute boils down to bad faith on all sides. This is seemingly the meaning behind all the accusations of bias, trolling, vandalism, etc. What is different about this case is the assumptions of bad faith are almost intrinsic, or, to put it in plain language, that bad actions are the fruit of bad people. The intensity of the underlying mistrust and hostility I see here is incredible. I tried to boil this down to a single principle, but I couldn't find the right words in Misplaced Pages policy to do it. If the Golden Rule was a Misplaced Pages policy, I would apply it here. Ignocrates (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Another problem, particularly from one editor, Kww, is so far as I can tell a question of as I've said before what seems to me to be basic competence. There seems to be a strong indication from him, throughout the history of his recent involvement in the topic, that he thinks because it is possible that different religious groups would have different opinions about this subject, that such different opinions must exist and that we are required to reflect them all. Unfortunately, as someone who might be perhaps more familiar with this topic than a lot of others, I think that the Christian community internally over the time probably has more demonstrable disagreement over whether Jesus ever existed than any other groups. Docetism comes to mind here. I have seen no real evidence yet put forward to suggest that there actually are different views of the historicity of Jesus among the non-Abrahamic religions of the world, and, honestly, I have trouble seeing the assumption of there existing such different views hard to credit, given the sometimes remarkable differences between different groups within those traditions, and even whether there might be any consistency to them. John Carter (talk) 22:48, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you recall any prior cases where CIR has been used as a principle? If you can cite one that would be helpful to demonstrate how it applies to editor conduct. Ignocrates (talk) 03:00, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Fwiw, the essay WP:CIR was used as a proposed principle in the workshops of the Austrian Economics case and the American politics case, but these were drafted by editors. I couldn't find any examples where it was included by the arbs as a principle in the final case. Ignocrates (talk) 03:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ignocrates, I think it would be more appropriate to say that there was bad faith extant, but it is overreach to say all sides. It is for ArbCom to determine where the bad faith resides, and that is not from "sides" but from individuals. And not all bad behavior stems from bad faith. Even then, I myself positively reject the notion that bad actions are the fruit of bad people, here, and everywhere. One of the problems I see sometimes in various disputes is this tendency to paint with too broad a brush. ArbCom is here to discern and separate, the very opposite thing. Evensteven (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Saying there is bad faith on all sides was my way of declining to weight where the bad faith resides. I completely agree that "It is for ArbCom to determine where the bad faith resides", and I probably overstated the intrinsic nature of it. It's just that the intensity and persistence of the bad faith shown throughout this proceeding is striking to me, especially considering what ArbCom can do to every person involved. Ignocrates (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ignocrates: Saying "there is bad faith on all sides" may be your way of "declining to weight where the bad faith resides," but to me it sounds like tarring all the participants in this arbitration with the same very wide brush. It seems unlikely to help the ArbCom arrive at a fair, well-informed decision.

While I may disagree with them on specific issues, I have sensed no bad faith in this arbitration from Evensteven, Kww, or Tgeorgescu. And, though I have accused some editors here of misbehavior (supported by diffs, by the way), I think it would be unnecessarily hostile to characterize them as "bad people," or paint them with a generalized accusation of "bad faith."

Finally, please clarify where I have acted in bad faith. I can't effectively respond to innuendo or conjecture. Fearofreprisal (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll pass on that opportunity. I struggled with how to word this as a principle, since AGF is a guideline and it has its limits. If you can think of a way please include it in the workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I can find no way to word your "bad faith on all sides" statement as a principle that isn't antithetical to the WP code of conduct. Maybe it's because I'm missing something, but it sounds like you're trying to say that everyone here is acting out of malice. And that doesn't seem right. Fearofreprisal (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Fearofreprisal, you are correct to state it's not the case that everyone here is acting out of malice. That was not my intention. In your case, the problem is, and always has been, your attitude; specifically, a predisposition toward intolerance and a lack of respect for the opinions of others. Imo, this causes you to become convinced of the rightness of your own position and to see the consensus position of others as merely an obstacle to be overcome. That said, people with such a disposition, while infuriating at times, can be paradigm shifters by challenging the assumptions behind the conventional wisdom. Ignocrates (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

For the record, Ignocrates, I have not meant to cast a shadow on your intent or good faith in making your statement, but only to challenge some of its content as it stood. To me, it seemed easily capable of being interpreted in an unhelpful way, and uncharacteristic of your other statements in this arbitration. Evensteven (talk) 06:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Evensteven, fwiw, you and Tgeorgescu are both impeccable editors and a great asset to the project. My characterization was overly broad and I didn't mean to impugn your reputations. Ignocrates (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

No apology necessary for my sake; I did not take it as directed towards me. "Overly broad" was exactly my point though, as it could be taken to mean anyone. I think you were generalizing and summarizing and just got carried away. Easy to do, but uncharacteristic. And this is not the place where we would want to leave stray misunderstandings in play, so I thought best to address it. And thanks for the kind words. Back at you. Evensteven (talk) 16:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I took a stab at incorporating AGF as a proposed principle. That apparently hasn't been done since the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Case in August 2007. Still, I think it's important to capture how making assumptions about other editor's motives and intentions adversely affected the editing environment and contributed to the escalation of the conflict. Ignocrates (talk) 03:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I definitely agree. Evensteven (talk) 07:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)