This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ubikwit (talk | contribs) at 18:05, 11 December 2014 (→Another major reversion: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 18:05, 11 December 2014 by Ubikwit (talk | contribs) (→Another major reversion: reply)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Soka Gakkai article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 14 days  |
 | This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg){kind=small}
 | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Soka Gakkai article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 14 days |
 Archives |
| Index |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
More Questionable References
In the Mentor and Disciple section, there is no page number for footnote (currently) 80: Yano, Jun'ya (2009). Kuroi techō: Sōka Gakkai "Nihon senryō keikaku" no zenkiroku. Tōkyō: Kōdansha. ISBN 978-4-06-215272-3. Can we get the page number? If not, the reference will be deleted. Thanks.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a neutral source for the statement being made anyway. Shii (tock) 20:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Ok - done.--Daveler16 (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Small thing, but Seagar p. 94 does not say harade is president of the SG - it says he's secretary general. I removed that reference, and left just the other one. Not that his presidency is in dispute, but now the references is accurate.--Daveler16 (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
"In fact"
I removed the wirds "in fact" from the assertion "In fact, his main motivation was religious, not political" in the Makiguchi sub section on Repression During the War. It's really too complicated an issue to say "in fact" about someone's motivation. True, M. objected to religious consolidation; but, as a number of sources indicate, the reason for the religious consolidation was to support the wat effort (I added one reference about that) (BTW, I had to edit it twice because of an date error in a footnote)--Daveler16 (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your conclusions are wishful thinking. SG came under oppression on religious grounds not political ones. SG did not support State Shinto which is not necessarily the same as Shinto. In fact the idea of Shinto is in a religious context relatively new. Any attempts to portray SG as an opposition to Japanese Fascism are factually incorrect. Neither Makiguchi nor Toda to any great extent distanced themselves from war atrocities committed by the Japanese. Changes in that policy did indeed started in Ikeda’s reign as the information age did start before the internet – so no use in denying the obvious. Surely anyone would be pewed if an A-bomb is dropped on one’s own country on the other hand SG is not on the forefront to speak up against human rights violations and war atrocities taking place NOW – a fact that also should be mentioned. As a matters of fact SG never ever took a stand on human rights violations taking place in China or Russia today – never ever. In that respect the Catholic Church under Bendict is far more outspoken that SGI ever was. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Not disputing that that's an allegation, and I'm not removing that allegation. I just removed the phrase "in fact". as there are other opinions and other documentation. --Daveler16 (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Order of subsections
At one point I remember a discussion about the order of the subsections. It was centered on whether "History" or "Beliefs & Practices." If I recall properly it was started by Margin1522 under the title "Belief and Practices First." I don't think the issue was ever settled besides some attempted edits and reverts.
Can we all ring in with opinions? Looking at the articles about other religions, there does not seem to be a clear consensus. Catholicism and Judaism hold off on history until later in their respective articles. Calvinism, on the other hand, starts with history.
IMHO, I think B&P at the top will suit our readers the most. I believe they want to know what this organization stands for, what makes it similar/unique, what its members actually "do." History is certainly important but to most readers what occurred in the 30's, 40's, 50's and even 60's and 70's was before their birth.
That's my two cents. BrandenburgG (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Catholicism and Judaism both see themselves as being the "original" form of their belief system, and their beliefs are in lots of ways not so clearly based on previous similar beliefs, like is the case with Calvinism. It would make sense for Calvinism to discuss the history, and the inherited ideas and points of differentiation, first in a history section which details why they broke away from the earlier group. I guess the decision for this article would be based on to what extent the beliefs of SGI are more or less inherited from a previous group and to what extent they are original. If most of their belief system is "inherited," then I myself would start with a "History" section indicating the reasons and time of the breakaway from the earlier group. If most of it is in some way "original," then starting with beliefs might make more sense. John Carter (talk) 21:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you, John Carter. I agree with your approach. I think it is very original. I've been writing my take on the B&P in my Sandbox 9https://en.wikipedia.org/User:BrandenburgG/sandbox). I used the term "revivalist" because its original form revived the founder's (Nichiren) teaching and spirit which had been lost for many centuries.BrandenburgG (talk) 12:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that Makiguchi's motivation for linking with NS was that it enhanced his theory of value creation. If he had linked with another sect, would the result have been the same? Probably: the SG, it seems to me, has the chanting, the Gohonzon and the sutra recitation in common with other Nichiren sects, but it certainly could have gotten those from any of them - or none, really. It's reasons for practicing, its goals, its motivation based on value and life force are quite distinct, and were not all derived, from other sects. Look at txhe history - one conflict with the priests after another. Nothing in "History" is essential to explaining or understanding what the SG believes and practices; so, I think, Beliefs and Practices ought to lead off. --Daveler16 (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Mr. Brandenburg...Wishful thinking and oh so subjective...More appropriately, altered the founder's teaching to mold Nichiren in Ikeda's image. 108.197.205.124 (talk) 05:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC) Mark Rogow 11/23/2014
- "I think it's pretty clear that Makiguchi's motivation for linking with NS was that it enhanced his theory of value creation." This had less to do with his theories – he did try to get involved with Nichiren Shu too but was refused. This in some respect again boils down to the concept of master and disciple – a master can and quite often will refuse a disciple … same goes the other way round. Makiguchi’s involvement with Nichiren Buddhism started with attending lectures of nationalistic Nichirenists, a fact that some might not like. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think there is anything here for some to like or not like. Miyata describes Makiguchi's "religious wandering" as a youth here http://hw001.spaaqs.ne.jp/miya33x/paper10-1.html. Yes, as part of his wandering Makiguchi attended lectures by Chigaku Tanaka. Of course, if it's "one strike, you're out," then Makiguchi should be discounted for attending the lectures. From another perspective his attendance shows a broad search for meaning.BrandenburgG (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The question (posed by John Carter, whom I paraphrase) is is the SG theology evolved independent of NS, the answer to which might determine the placement of Beliefs and Practices. Your argument, I think, strengthens the notion that it is independent, that it wasn't NS so mucvh but Nichiren that attracted Makiguchi in the first place. Is thyat what you're saying? --Daveler16 (talk) 15:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Your "paraphrasing" of John Carter's "question" is a false construction the way I see it, and your question to Catflap is equally mind boggling. Catflap appears to be contrasting NS (Nichiren-shoshu) to Nichiren-shu, incidentally. The "notion" that there was anything "independent" would appear to be by-and-large imaginary.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 19:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
No, the question really is: "Is the SG belief something developed independently of NS?" The answer is "Yes", and Catflap's observation supports that - Makiguchi was shopping for a sect to support his thinking. I changed another part of the opening, using the material Brandenburg shared in his Sandbox; this makes it even clearer, I think.--Daveler16 (talk) 19:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit, I'm afraid I don't understand your comment "The "notion" that there was anything "independent" would appear to be by-and-large imaginary." Which citation of Davelef16 do you disagree with? Which citation are you holding up to dispute his edits?≈≈≈≈
I think the problem is that anything critical of the SG, or that keeps it as some sort of subset of Nichiren Shoshu, is "neutral" and "objective; while anything that is positive, or that happens to coincide with the SG's own view of itself, is "self promoting" or otherwise biased. I would argue that this is wrong, but it seems to be the rule under which some of us are operating. I hope I'm wrng about that.Anyway, I changed iit back. --Daveler16 (talk) 00:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
The real problem is that SGI "theology" devolved from Nichiren's.107.203.17.51 (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow 06/10/2014
Toda: 1945-1958
I would like to ask help in revising this section of the SG article. At the present time it is superficial and biased. There is nothing here about Toda's contribution to the SG's perspectives about Buddhism. Only one narrative is presented, one that rests on bullying as the primary reason for the SG's growth. The alternative narrative is that Toda was deeply awakened in prison to a mission to propagate the SG movement and that he had a profound and lasting relationship to his mentor. Both of these resulted in acumen, organizational genius, and an ability to touch the lives of people--thus resulting in the SG's growth.
Both narratives need to be explored in this article. Balanced vocabulary should be selected as well. "Aggressive proselytizing" is certainly mentioned in sources. But so, too, is "intensive shakubuku drive" (Murata, 101) or "massive proselytization" (Queen).
The present section hops from "aggressive prosyletyzing" to "Raccoon Dog" to speeches on a white horse, to scandalous funeral. This is not a fair portrayal of a man whom, many might say, played a pivotal role in history.
I hope that other editors can join me in this work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrandenburgG (talk • contribs) 18:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I added some information about T's contributions between his release from prison (1945) and his inauguration (1951).
- BrandenburgG (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I made revisions to the Toda subsection. I organized the section into several subsections, I don't believe that anyone will have a problem with this. I introduced more material and citations into the shakubuku subsection and the relationship with NS subsection. I believe both of these subsections are more balanced now.
I have to raise a flag about the work of an earlier editor in the "death and legacy" subsection. By stating that there was a leadership vacuum for two years this editor seriously misused the Murata citation he/she cites. First of all the editor does not cite any page. Secondly, the page which discusses the matter (118) states exactly the opposite. According to this page, by the second month following Toda's death, Ikeda was appointed general director "which put him virtually in charge of the entire organization." I plan on addressing this issue later this week. BrandenburgG (talk) 13:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Another major reversion
Ubikwit, you have been requested repeatedly to discuss it on the Talk page before doing a large-scale revert of the work of other editors. I haven't been following this that closely, but from reading it Daveler16's contribution was a coherent argument that must have taken hours or days to put together. You can't just revert it with a bald assertion in the edit summary. That is disruptive. The book was published by Oxford University Press. If you want, you're free to make your case here that it has a "pro-SG bias". But you have to make the case. You can't just assert it. – Margin1522 (talk) 23:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Margin1522 You and the other pro-SG editors have repeatedly been cautioned about misrepresenting sources and posting promotional content. All of these incidents can and will be used in any future ArbCom case related to this article.
- Daveler has now blatantly misrepresented the Global Citizens source (p.32), a book which already has a highly pro-SG bias, and simply ignores the history of Makiguchi and his writings.
- I'm not here to waste my time arguing with pro-SG advocates. --Ubikwit見学/迷惑 18:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit:, I've been trying to get you into a discussion
of the problems that you have with other editors' contributions. Misplaced Pages:Consensus is the way it's supposed to work. That means that sometimes we have to compromise and make the effort to persuade other editors. I really don't know what to say if you think this is a waste of your time. – Margin1522 (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
This is silly. Ubikwit, let me get this straight: if a source is extremely critical of the SG, it's neutral and objective; if a source happens to support what the SG says about itself, it's self- serving. Is that your view? Noah Brannen and Brian Victoria are in no way negative - they just have a clear, objective view that Jane Hurst and Daniel Metraux lack. Is that correct? And btw I agree with Margin1522: this page is not your personal property. --Daveler16 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- You evade the issue of your misrepresenting the source you cited, which is the only point that matters here.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 03:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
It is entirely possible I entered a wrong page number or something. Would you mind terribly letting me know exactly what I "misrepresented"? And the issue is nuisance reverting - scholars have come to conclusions you diaagree with, so you are denigrating their work and making changes with no discussion. --Daveler16 (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I would also add that what Brandengurg wrote - which you have twice deleted - retains you connection to NS, whilestating clearly (more clearly yjan I did, which is why I liftrted it from his/her Sandbox) that Makiguchi and Toda brought their own ideas and teachings to the practice of Nichiren Buddhism, which teachings ad practicies were and are found nowhere in NS. --Daveler16 (talk) 17:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Latest World Tribune (Dec. 12) has a speech by Harada announcing a change to the "Religious Tenets" section of the SG "Rules and Regulation". Use to say the SG shall "believe in and accept the Dai Gohonzon of the Three Great Sedret Laws bestowed upon all Jambudvipa...and seek to realize its ultimate goal of widespread propagation of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism..." The new version drops "Dai Gohonzon" and adds "human revolution", to wit: "(The SG) believe in the 3 Great secret Laws underlying the fundamental law of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, chant daimoku encompassing practice for oneself and others to the Gohonzon and base itself on Nichiren Daishonin's writings. It shall strive, through each individual's achieving their human revolution, to realize the ultimate goal of widespread propagation..."
Harada says the reference to the Dai Gohonzon was just left in in deference to those who remembered fondly the ties to the priesthood, but that the Daishonin makes clear it is faith and practice that gives life to the Gohonzon - not a connection to a particular Gohonzon in a particular temple he uses language that rejects that Gohonzon as fundamental, and says the sect at Taisekiji "has absoluterly no relation to the Soka Gakkai".
Now, I can't think of a clearer statement that the SG is in no way dependent on NS for it's teachings. The Dai Gohonzon is absolutely essential to the NS belief system, and the SG rejects it. The notion of human revolution as the basis for widespread propagation has no precedent in Taisekiji canon - Harada even says it's based on Ikeda's writing.
So, once and for all, let's stop trying to argue that the SG beliefs are based on Taisekiji's, and let the editing of "Beliefs and Practices" progress accordingly. --Daveler16 (talk) 18:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nonsense. You are still trying to take things out of historical context by stating that the beliefs propounded today were always the beliefs and practices, which is nonsense. Did I say that already?
- You can add that bit about Harada at the very end of the section, where it belongs in terms of temporal progression.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 10:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Ubikwit, I take exception to your (frequent) use of the word "Nonsense." Several editors over the course of many edits have pointed out the primacy of Makiguchi's theory of value and later Toda's realizations in prison as launching points in the SG's revival of Nichiren's teachings.
- For example, the final paragraph of Makiguchi's final letter from prison one month before his death states: "I am reading Kant's philosophy with care. I have been able to develop a theory of value such as philosophers have attempted but been unable to realize for the past century. Further, I have been able to link this to a faith in the Lotus Sutra and now can see the actual proof of several thousand people . I must admit my own astonishment at this . It is for this reason that the three obstacles and four devils have arisen. It is exactly in accordance with the teachings of the sutra."
- In terms of Toda, in a speech delivered on November 2, 1972, Ikeda remarked: “We now greet a new sunrise. It is the dawn of the second chapter of kosen-rufu, a voyage toward realization of true global peace. … It is not too much to say that the Soka Gakkai begins and ends with the philosophy of life. To be more specific, the Soka Gakkai has as its eternal foundation the enlightenment that Mr. Toda attained in prison. The theory of life, however is not one formulated by the Gakkai organization. Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism is in itself the philosophy of life that the Soka Gakkai’s teaching lies in Nichiren Daishonin’s writings and in the enlightenment Mr. Toda who interpreted these documents as revealing the philosophy of life,” (Jan 1973 Seikyo Times, p. 13) (History of the Fuji School, pp. 144-46).
- I appreciate your statement that Harada's statement belongs somewhere. But the weight of evidence is that the SG's foundations of belief and practice reach far further than those of NS. This has been referenced by many secondary source citations. This is the belief of the organization itself as demonstrated by even these brief primary sources.
- It is academic arrogance and Original Research to categorically dismiss these citations as "nonsense."
- BrandenburgG (talk) 13:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to misunderstand what I am saying. You can include all of that information, but it needs to be presented in a manner that reflects its development over time by different individuals, as you have done, and not as some sort of ahistorical metaphysical doctrine with no determinate origins.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 18:05, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- All unassessed articles
- C-Class Buddhism articles
- Top-importance Buddhism articles
- C-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- C-Class New religious movements articles
- Top-importance New religious movements articles
- New religious movements articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- C-Class sociology articles
- Low-importance sociology articles
- C-Class social movements task force articles
- Social movements task force articles
- Misplaced Pages controversial topics