Misplaced Pages

• Oppose And yes, it might look as if i've been canvassed to lend my support here to TheNorlo, but in fact i have/had read everything on this thread earlier. I am supportive of the ban below, but there was already a pile-up, and i couldn't see any reason to add more to that conversation. But in this case, i can't really see any reason to ban (topic or otherwise), because i can't see any real wrong doing or misbehaviour. We all as editors have views, and if we can't express these, such as saying that we (along with some rather eminent scientists) find the Grana et al. review to be rather crappy, then you might as well ban me along with TheNorlo... There is some incivil language pointed out above, but really considering that almost every person who disagrees with QG, Doc James and Alexbrn etc. have been called socks, SPA's, unwitting industry shills, fringe supporters etc... then there should be a rather big ban-hammer going around - and maybe there should. But this isn't one of the cases. --Kim D. Petersen 20:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

User:FergusM1970

This editor is more concerning with evidence of 1) incivility 2) meat puppetry

1. Here they link to one of their freinds twitter feeds outing themselves. Another one of their friends also tweeted the entire thing to me.
   1. Here he refers to those who do not support e-cigs (known as ANTS as "illiterate fucks")
   2. He also says "I've modified my clock to sound more like Wikiproject Medicine. Now it goes "dick doc, dick doc, dick doc..."" and much more
2. He also has used his twitter feed to direct people to edit the e-cig article with some success. User:Entropy72 join after being invited. Among a few others. There is an active group that is trying to change Misplaced Pages's content on e-cigs to be much more favorable of the products. With a number of the other WP:SPA currently editing likely also related.

They have a long block log and have had previous unblock request declined due to incivility

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry what? Outing myself? As what, me?

This is a Misplaced Pages noticeboard, Doc. It is not the Internet Police. What I say on Twitter is nothing to do with AN/I and very definitely nothing to do with you. And as for what VapeMeStoopid writes, take it up with her. I wish you luck.--FergusM1970 07:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Doc do you have any Diffs of specific incivility on wiki from this user? SPACKlick (talk) 09:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Twitter can't provide diffs.--FergusM1970 09:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that I have not, to the best of my recollection, posted a link to my Twitter account on Misplaced Pages and I would much prefer it if other editors did not do so.--FergusM1970 09:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• FergusM1970, without actually putting myself fully into this I will have to play somewhat devil's advocate here. I don't like doxing or really bringing in one's personal social media accounts- I actually try to keep my personal social media accounts private myself. However at the same time I have to say that if you make comments on a social media account about an incident that you're currently involved in, odds are high that it will be discovered and posted on here- especially if it is particularly incendiary or comes across as you trying to rally others to come on to Misplaced Pages to help argue a case or a viewpoint. This may not have been your intent, but that's why you do have to be careful about posting on social media outlets and what you post. It's why I try to never mention anything on my personal social media accounts, because I know that these things can and will be brought up on here. This doesn't mean that I particularly like the idea that I have to censor myself off Misplaced Pages in any form or fashion, but if you do post anything off Misplaced Pages then you run the risk of it getting mentioned here if an editor thinks it may be applicable to an ANI case or incident. In this particular case you made a tweet on 4:05 PM - 20 Dec 2014 where you asked people to come to the talk page for an article you are editing and vote on a subject- something that is highly discouraged on Misplaced Pages because many of the incoming editors are often completely unaware of Misplaced Pages policies and their opinions may not fall within said policies- especially if you're asking them to vote a specific way. (It's also seen as WP:CANVASSING.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not objecting to him complaining about anything I said offsite, and I'm easy enough to find if anyone's interested enough to look, but I don't post links to my own accounts and I'd prefer it if others didn't either. I did ask current Misplaced Pages members to contribute, which I realize was suboptimal, but as the RfC has heavy undertones of WP:IDHT and WP:FILIBUSTER, being opened immediately after an identical one found no grounds for the layout Doc wants, I was somewhat frustrated. Doc has been very problematic at that article and has managed to get it locked twice in three days by starting edit wars.--FergusM1970 10:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• @FergusM1970: I am quite honestly disappointed that you allege that Doc "refuses to engage constructively" yet you are involved in such childish behaviour. Honestly? Grow the fuck up. And I suggest you and TheNorlo read the relevant policies before I sanction you for your problematic behaviour. —Dark 10:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of canvassing? Please explain how. And pkease explain how my behaviour is problematic, other than the fact that I laughed at a joke and that I inderctly called Doc James an idiot and a moron, to which I've apologized. TheNorlo (talk) 13:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

He's doing his best to prevent any changes being made to the article, which is in a dire condition. As of yesterday there were a number of discussions and attempts to find consensus, some of which were making progress, but Doc started edit-warring to restore his preferred version and got the article locked again. Now he's repeating an RfC that was closed a few days ago. He seems determined to bring the article under the scope of MED, even though there are no obvious grounds for doing so, and to prevent any improvements unless that happens.--FergusM1970 10:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

SO that excuses your behaviour? —Dark 10:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I shouldn't have posted that link to TheNorlo.--FergusM1970 10:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It was organized per WP:MEDMOS for a good 18 months . Yes you managed to get a number of people to join this RfC through your hard recruitment. This user has since been blocked User:CheesyAppleFlake and it was closed as no consensus. Since than our WP:SPA pertaining to e-cigs have expanded in number. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

But the point is that it shouldn't have been organised per MEDMOS because it isn't a medical article. I know that you have some unconventional views on the subject but they are not supported by either general or medical sources, so the article shouldn't be organized according to them. Exactly one person joined that RfC at my suggestion and he made what looks like a moderate and reasonable comment.--FergusM1970 10:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:SPA expands not because of canvassing but because of passion. Vapers are passionate people because (get ready for this unsourced claim Doc) Vaping works and it as changes their lifes! And vapers go on wikipedia read whats being sais on vaping and realize that this article is preposterous and that they must do something about it. So spare me your theories on how we are responsible for this mess.TheNorlo (talk) 13:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I doubt they do see what it says, because it's unreadable. Largely because Doc won't let any changes be made by anyone who's not coming from a MED position.--FergusM1970 13:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

This sort of "the other side is wrong and unreasonable because they refuse to accept my point of view" is typical advocacy behavior, and is not productive debate. This is exactly why we should not have WP:SPAs taking over our articles and using them for WP:ADVOCACY. Many members of this group are on the page pretty much 18 hours a day. It is impossible for anyone who is not willing and able to dedicate their lives to this article to engage in a meaningful way with discussions held among hardcore advocates and "consensus" decisions being made within intervals smaller than that between visits to the page of most non-WP:ADVOCACY editors. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that WP:ADVOCACY is a strong accusation and needs to be backed up with proof. Its to easly tossed around when people disagree with the other side. That some editors find the subject interesting and want to devote time to the article is being twisted into some kind of negative thing. But that investment in time, is to them, to make the article better. Something that is also being twisted. The SPA accounts is something that has been disproven but seems to pop up as an excuse to silence active editors. If you find something important, spend time doing it. If not all this looks like is a stumbling block is being tossed in front of editors who are active and who some have disagreements over content. Both of these sections appear to be on silencing editors in a content dispute. The excuses for silencing them now appears to basically be I dont have time to discuss things. AlbinoFerret 16:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I would ask you to review WP:ADVOCACY, which is not the same as paid editing, but simply putting support for a POV above having as one's primary motivation the building of an encyclopedia. I think the evidence for this is pretty straightforward. While not an expert user of the tracking software here, I seen that Fergus has edited Electronic Cigarette related pages 1193 times, and there are an additional 193 edits on ANI and other dispute pages that are likely mostly associated with the same subject. This is out of a lifetime total of about 4500 edits, with the 1193 being mostly recent and many of the non-Electronic Cigarette edits apparently being for hire. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Paid advocacy by FergusM1970

Yesterday, when I followed the link in the talk page conversation where FergusM1970 was insulting User:Doc James, I was led to FergusM1970's twitter account where he advertises that he is a paid e-cig shill. To quote: "Veteran, vaper, writer and paid e-cigarette industry shill." And he links to where you can contact him to write. I followed the link and saw mention of Misplaced Pages work. I wrote to him by email to ask him about the situation and to give me a list of all of his Misplaced Pages accounts and all the articles that created or edited for hire. He gave me an initial list and then revised it a few times. FergusM1970 denied to me by email that he is paid to edit the e-cig article. And he changed the twitter profile to add "And yes, I know, some of you really ARE too fucking stupid to recognise sarcasm. Tough.Deal with it." after the bit that says he is a e-cig shill.

Since FergusM1970 is a tendentious editor on the topic of e-cigs, and I answered a RFC on that article talk page last month, I decided to pass the information to @ User:Nuclear Warfare (who has dealt with him in the past) for evaluation and further action. I've not heard back from him yet.

I woke up to see that this discussion was now on AN/I, and also I see that FergusM1970 is trying to remember all the articles that he wrote and list them on his user page. A good number of them were deleted for lack of notability which kind of shows the problem with doing this type of work. I regret to say that I don't think that FergusM1970 is the type of editor that fits in well on Misplaced Pages. He has been block numerous times for not understanding or following basic rules. Yet, he is soliciting work to edit Misplaced Pages articles. For that reason, I support a ban from editing Misplaced Pages entirely. And if is to return ever, I support a permanent ban from editing in all areas related to tobacco including e-cigs. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

"I was led to FergusM1970's twitter account" No you weren't. You went poking around in my business just because you could, and oh my, I bet you were excited when you found something you could invoke Misplaced Pages's arcane and stupidly bureaucratic rules to deal with. Who the fuck do you people think you are, Interpol? How DARE you sit in judgement of my behavior, however vile, on a site that has damn all to do with you? How's the total number of active editors doing these days? Still going down because new editors are put off by the alphabet soup of rules and self-appointed guardians of the One True Way? It's people like Doc, with his wikilawyering bullshit and little clique of lackeys, that are driving editors away. Ban him and that illiterate cretin QuackGuru and you might get somewhere. Anyway I'm out of here. RationalWiki here I come.--FergusM1970 17:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The reason my profile says "Paid e-cig industry shill" is that I was accused of being exactly that after correcting Professor Martin McKee when he misrepresented some data. People who actually are paid advocates don't generally advertise it on their social media profiles, and certainly not using the word "shill." It's sarcasm.--FergusM1970 17:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

My antennae go up at anyone editing Derwick Associates. As an editor quite familiar with Venezuelan politics and the entire suite of POV Venezuelan articles, it always appeared highly likely that something was amiss when a non-Spanish-speaking editor engages an obscure Venezuelan lawsuit affecting a couple of high-profile people. Why Fergus was editing that article never made sense to me, and he most certainly removed reliable sources, as I pointed out in the earlier e-cig thread.

On the e-cig articles, having read through some of the article talk (which reads pretty much like these ANIs), it seems that Fergus and several others there are unable to confine their comments to sources and content, and have disrupted the talk page with comments on contributors. I suggest a review of the e-cig talk page could lead to some topic bans. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

As someone who has read the e-cig talk page and read that its a personal interest of FergusM1970 because he is a user of e-cigarettes. I doubt a topic ban is warranted, but look and see. This is a content dispute in which one side is trying to use editing on other articles to remove an editor they have a content disagreement with on e-cig. I see no evidence or any proof of paid editing for e-cig. AlbinoFerret 16:48, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Off and on wiki, FergusM1970 doesn't show signs that he wants to contribute in a collaborative way. It greatly concerns me when a Misplaced Pages user in good faith is trying to collaborate on a talk page, and has to put up with the level of vitriol that he is throwing on and off site. It runs off all of the sensible people who won't put up with the negative environment. It is especially worrying on a medical related article with high page views when is it really important that we follow the highest quality references and not let pov pushers take control. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

He didn't have to put up with it; he deliberately sought it out. As for POV pushing, I'd suggest you read the discussion I had with Doc a couple of nights ago on his talk page about why he insists e-cigs are a drug. He is making claims based on what I can only describe as sympathetic magic, such as that an e-cig only becomes one when filled with a specific type of liquid and, the rest of the time, is something else entirely. That's not just WP:POV; it's WP:FRINGE. As for the article it's not medical-related, and this is the entire source of the problem. It's about a consumer product that isn't licensed for medical use anywhere in the world.--FergusM1970 17:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

As for what's running off the sensible people, Sandy has a great quote on her user page about that.--FergusM1970 17:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Google is your friend; blog discussing paid editing on Misplaced Pages's Derwick Associates. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You got me. Hands up, I did it. Not that it matters, but I really wasn't paid for the e-cig stuff. Bye.--FergusM1970 17:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

But you have been paid by e-cig industry to write about e-cigs. So, your statements on twitter and on Misplaced Pages that you are not an e-cig shill are not truthful. you answered request and being awarded the work to write 8 SEO articles about electronic cigs. We have no way of knowing if someone was paying you to start these threads, too. Or if you just want to please your previous and future clients. It is not possible to have collaborative discussion with you since you are paid to have a pov. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 18:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I've been paid by mattress shops too. If I commented on beds would you call me a shill for Big Duvet? I'm a freelance writer. I've been paid to write about everything. I've even written web content for a male chastity device shop, and I now know far more about those things than I ever wanted to, believe me. Shill for Big Padlock? Urgh. However, it's how I pay my bills so I can keep on writing fiction and feeding the damn cat.--FergusM1970 19:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Full disclosure

I am a freelance writer. Like practically every freelance writer today I frequently get asked to edit Misplaced Pages; I would say this happens on more or less a daily basis. I turn down almost all of these requests because they're along the lines of "Can you create a site for my awesome new company?" or "We need 100 editors to tell the truth about what's happening in Gaza." I do not do promotional edits and I do not do paid advocacy. However if I feel an article is worthwhile and likely to pass WP:N then sometimes I will write it. Nevertheless I am not being paid to advocate for e-cigarettes. I am doing this of my own free will because the article, on a significant topic, is in a deplorable state on multiple levels. I have submitted information on all the paid edits I have made to FloNight for investigation; I have nothing to hide.--FergusM1970 11:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay so you add peoples CVs to Misplaced Pages for money such as Jerome_Katz and Tony Succar

And you adjust companies articles such as Derwick Associates removing content they may not like

You appear to even be willing to edit war for pay , , Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You got one out of three. User:FloNight knows the articles I was paid to edit. I think that'll do for now.--FergusM1970 11:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

That's nowhere near good enough. Misplaced Pages's Terms of Use require you to publicly disclose any paid editing you have done on your user page or the relevant talk pages. You indicate that you continue to agree to the TOU with every edit you make. If you do not, I will block you. (In fact, I think there are grounds enough for an indef as is, but I will leave that up to the community to decide.) MER-C 12:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that; Misplaced Pages's rules are too extensive and convoluted for anyone to know them all. I'll get it fixed today.--FergusM1970 13:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Done.--FergusM1970 13:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Note that TOU demands disclosure of all paid editing, not some. —Dark 13:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yep. I've erred on the generous side and included articles I edited while writing eBooks on the topic.--FergusM1970 13:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to play it your way, so be it. I know irrefutably of several articles that you engaged in paid work on, that are not listed on your userpage. I hope you understand the repercussions of partial disclosure. —Dark 13:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you want deleted ones as well?--FergusM1970 14:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@DarkFalls:, Care to share how you know this for a fact rather than making vague accusations? SPACKlick (talk) 14:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The evidence will be shared with the arbitration committee upon request, but no, I am not inclined to share here. —Dark 14:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

User:FergusM1970, you should fully disclose all contributions you were paid for. If User:DarkFalls knows for a fact that you did not do that, I suggest that you get blocked for indefinite time, i.e. at least until you disclose those contributions. Maybe your next edit should rectify this problem? --Dirk Beetstra 16:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

DarkFalls appears to know more than I do, which is certainly not impossible. I've found and added a couple more. I'll have another look later. Right now I don't have the free screen space to do a line-by-line search of my records.--FergusM1970 16:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

A few other company pages you have written for pay are Cartell

And I assume you are paid to help people try to keep their articles ?

User:SandyGeorgia may wish to take another look at the Derwick Associates

Basically all your edits need to be scrutinized Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

She's welcome to take another look. As for Cartell I'm quite happy to tell FloNight why I created it. As I said, I have nothing to hide so you can scrutinize to your heart's content.--FergusM1970 11:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You could not pay me to care about Derwick Associates (and I already showed that Fergus removed reliably sourced info). There are much bigger POV problems in the Venezuelan suite of articles, and that is such an obscure topic that I've long wondered what would motivate a non-Spanish-speaking, uninvolved-with-Venezuela articles editor to find or even care about that article. Fergus, were you hired to deal with that lawsuit on Misplaced Pages? How did you come to be interested in an obscure Venezuelan lawsuit? Do you speak fluent Spanish? If not, how can you read the sources, the majority of which are in Spanish? I can assure everyone that editing-for-pay goes around in Venezuelan articles, because I've been approached several times (and refused, thank you very much). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I found it through "Random article". I do that sometimes when I'm bored. Usually I just have a read, correct some spelling or punctuation and move on (that's why I edit things like Orange is the new black, Archie McPherson or Sudarium of Oviedo. I'm not interested in prison porn, retired football commentators or fake relics either). Derwick was in such a mess I saw it as a challenge. As I said, I used a machine translator and calls to my sister in law in Salamanca.--FergusM1970 16:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but it still stretches my imagination that considering all of the routine and rampant Corruption in Venezuela, someone who doesn't speak Spanish and can't read the sources would care about an obscure lawsuit affecting a couple of very powerful people in Venezuela. Going to the trouble to make calls and machine translate sources on an obscure lawsuit in a country where corruption is the new norm isn't something that makes sense to me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Frankly it stretches mine too; I have no idea why I bothered. Then again I have no idea why I spent so much time on the shroud of Turin either; arguing with relic believers is utterly futile. All I can say is it seemed like a good idea at the time.--FergusM1970 16:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You thought it was a mess, so on your very first day of editing there, you first removed numerous reliable sources and next tried to have the article deleted. You then went on to use a government source to add original research and POV. And then, only nine days after you "found it through 'random article'", you are expressing knowledge of a Venezuelan blogger and accusing another editor of socking. Curious that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• 'Comment Yet another section on AN/I to try and remove editors on the other side of a content dispute. While the actions of those accused are not the best this is purely on an article Doc James is invested in and is even willing to edit war to win edits. Doc James is the reason the page is currently protected for 3 months. See Electronic cigarette section in this dated archive. This is an attempt to remove very active editors from a talk page that has an RFC started by Doc James and many other proposed edit sections the editors are involved in. Its easier to remove others you disagree with to win rather than work with them. As for the comments made, Doc James is involved in those discussions arguing for the sake of arguing and pushing buttons. That doesnt excuse some of the comments but puts them in perspective. I for one think Doc James needs to walk away from the article for awhile. Evidence of why is the second RFC on the same topic that Doc James started before but didnt get consensus for his vision of the article. Its getting to be disruptive and calls for stopping the second RFC are strong. AlbinoFerret 12:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

What so the meat puppets and WP:SPAs can manage the article on this multi billion dollar product so that it matches their associations / industries point of view and not that of the World Health Organization, Center for Disease Control etc? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You're blinded by your loathing of THR. I am very far from an industry advocate. I know perfectly well that we don't know much yet about the long-term use of e-cigs. I know that there's very likely some residual risk. I don't want to see non-smoking teens take up vaping. Yes, I'm pro-vaping, but that's because a) I know exactly how effective they are for smoking cessation, and b) I keep up to date with all the science and not just one aging activist in San Fiasco who doesn't have a single medical qualification to his name. There is an emerging scientific consensus than they're two, possibly three, orders of magnitude safer than cigarettes; nobody is claiming they're anything like equivalent in risk. There's no evidence of a gateway effect, despite what's been claimed in borderline fraudulent "reviews" that claim to pull longitudinal data from a cross-sectional study. The exhaled vapour doesn't contain harmful levels of anything. But the Misplaced Pages article doesn't convey any of that. Instead it's full of stuff about particles, all based on one outlier of a review. One review says the particles are the same size as in cigarette smoke, at 100-200nm. THREE say they're from 250-600nm. Guess what one you want to use? Your preferred review also neglects to mention the fact that particle density in vapour ranges from 6 to 880 times lower than in smoke. There's a lot of stuff about metal particles, but not the fact that the levels of those particles are 10 to 50 times lower than the FDA permitted limit for an asthma inhaler. In short you are filibustering and edit-warring to preserve an article that is not only incredibly POV, but also so badly written that if my ten year old niece handed me it I would be embarrassed for her. People are not joining Misplaced Pages and editing there because I have recruited them to my international shill cabal. They are editing because they have found the article and recognised that it's crap. You don't have to worry about me any more, so take a step back and look at it again. Maybe read a few papers from someone that isn't Stan Glantz or Margaret Chan. Because if you don't, I guarantee the problems will continue until you finally step on your crank so badly that it cannot be overlooked.--FergusM1970 00:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I have to agree with AlbinoFerret that is not helpful to the content dispute, this even approaches Wiki Hounding. Per WP:NPA Comment on content, not on the contributor.If you think you see a long term problem with FergusM1970 gather more evidence before coming back here (or go to arbcom) Avono (talk) 12:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

In the past week I've reported Doc James twice for edit-warring that resulted in an article having to be locked. I suspect that's not entirely unrelated to this.--FergusM1970 12:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Also note this diff here where Doc warned me for edit warring when I'd made a single revert. This took place one minute after he'd made his own third revert, repeatedly restoring his preferred version in place of one resulting from an edit request while the article was locked; the article was locked again three minutes later. This looked like an attempt at intimidation.--FergusM1970 13:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I would say that I find it pretty remarkable that folks engaged in WP:ADVOCACY to the extent that >95% of their edits are on this one article, who have engaged in personal attacks against him, would accuse Doc James of edit warring. And suggesting that the article was locked because of Doc James is simply a mis-statement of the facts. I requested that the article be protected, and I did so because ADVOCATES began making massive POV edits the moment the previous protection expired. Doc James actually added a comment supporting the protection shortly after I requested it. It is very difficult for me to understand how the facts of this situation came to be so completely mis-stated here. Formerly 98 (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but that, frankly, is bollocks - just like your claim earlier that the last RfC was open for one day (it was eight weeks). The "advocate" started cleaning up the construction section after the protection was lifted; it was Doc who started making massive edits, and the renewed protection you asked for rather conveniently went on right after he'd used up his last revert. As for your "95% of edits" claim, meh. Whatever.--FergusM1970 16:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

No that's not correct. The RFC ended up in deadlock. Then a second vote, based on the incorrect and disputed premise that there was a consensus for change, was held on how to reorder the content. It was closed within 24 hours, and an edit request made to the supervising Admin, with no one notifying those who, not being dedicated advocates, do not check the article talk page multiple times a day. It was a clear effort to stuff the ballot box. Another reason why we don't benefit from having advocates dominate our editing process. Formerly 98 (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@Formerly 98 That appears to be a twisting of WP:ADVOCACY, there is no question that FergusM1970 has edited other articles as a paid editor, which he has disclosed. But there is no proof that Electronic cigarette was anything but a personal interest. I also thing that you are completely wrong on the reason E-cig is currently locked for 3 months. Its clear that it was because Doc James reverted 3 different editors to win an edit war. The Electronic cigarette section in this dated archive clearly shows why it was protected. Your request for protection was on the 18th, the page was unprotected on the 20 and Doc started an edit war. The 3 month protection was because of a section in the 20th arcive detailing that edit warring. AlbinoFerret 16:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

After the page was locked Doc started to try and get his edits another way by an RFC. Two of the most vocal commenters against Doc's position in that RFC are now named in this section. Its a content dispute. AlbinoFerret 16:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Community ban discussion of FergusM1970

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per this and the evidence above, a ban should be discussed. I suspect the rest of the isses at e-cig will take care of themselves if Fergus is removed from the picture. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind adding to your header, User:SandyGeorgia. I came across this request on Elance, where "Wade" is looking for "... Someone with knowledge of the E cigs industry to write content for us for SEO purposes. ...". An assignment awarded to Fergus Mason. Adding this as evidence for both the abovementioned case, and for the suggested ban. --Dirk Beetstra 18:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Beetstra, add whatever needed to my header; I'm not following anymore. The e-cig situation was bad enough, but people make their own choices about smoking. Many people have died, and many more lives have been ruined, by corruption in Venezuela. I need to vomit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Elance should start charging you fuckers rent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by FergusM1970 (talk • contribs) 18:12, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ah so Fergus is making edits for the e-cig industry on Misplaced Pages at 25$/hour. Thanks User:Beetstra that explains a lot. We should probably look at a few of the other WP:SPAs who are editing aswell. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk about adding two and two and getting Avogadro's number. No they're not, you brain donor. Go read my work history; seems like every other bugger has, so why not you?--FergusM1970 22:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban. I spelled out above the reasons for a ban. Someone who either does not understand Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines, or does not care about them should not be accepting money to create or edit Misplaced Pages articles. And his tendentious editing of e-cigs and comments on twitter that he linked to himself makes it difficult to see how it is possible for him to work collaboratively on Misplaced Pages. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥

• Support - though a plain indef block for violating our wmf:Terms of use would be enough (why is that not a standard block reason?). --Dirk Beetstra 17:40, 22 December 2014 (UTC) Striking this per above added evidence for violation of the wmf:Terms of use and now being co-proposer of ban. --Dirk Beetstra 18:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) While I can't comment on the ban given the evidence above I would say I highly doubt removing Fergus will resolve all the issues at e-cigarette. His edits only go back to the 3rd of December the problems go back way further than that. SPACKlick (talk) 17:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

No his first edits were to Ruyan a ecig manufacturer back in July 2013 followed by electronic cigarettes shortly there after.

His first edit to e-cigs involved removing a review article from a well respected journal and it just went from there. He was actively working on other paid jobs when he started. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC

I've mentioned the concept of Idée fixe to you before; now you seem to have another one. Your current fixed point is that the problems at the article are caused by me being a paid advocate for "the e-cig industry". (There isn't really any such thing, but I wouldn't expect you to know that. It's actually quite complicated.) Your Idée is wrong; I am not, and never have been, paid for editing that article. The problem is that you cannot let go the idea of making it a medical article. You now have a medical article, under MED, called Safety of electronic cigarettes. You've barely touched it. Apart from Quack's initial slathering of word salad, which of course has resulted in an unreadable mess, about the only person who's done significant work on it is me. And weirdly enough nobody complained about my edits except Quack, and even he went away when I pointed out that the text he claimed I had deleted was in the first sentence after the lede. I don't know if this trouble-free editing, without adding or removing any significant information, suggests anything to you. But maybe it should.--FergusM1970 02:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This is clearly a content dispute and dredging up things from the past and outside WP to try and remove a very active editor from Electronic cigarette. If there is proof of problems on other topics perhaps a topic ban from those articles is possible.AlbinoFerret 17:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • The problems go way, way beyond a single content dispute that is happening now on the e-cig page. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I do agree that this is a content dispute, but in violating the terms of use and our NPOV-pillar they, as a side effect, removed themselves from that dispute. I also don't think that the dispute will end here, nor that it started here, but that is is irrelevant for why a block and/or ban should be applied. --Dirk Beetstra 17:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

He just supported his own block, Im out as I have nothing to say about other articles and will not support paid editing, especially without disclosure. That cant be defended and wont be defended by me. AlbinoFerret 18:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support community ban, and suggest a re-investigation of the old SPIs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Not because of the e-cigarette dispute, but because FergusM1970 repeatedly stated above that he wasn't paid to edit the Derwick Associates article, only to finally admit that he was when presented with evidence. Clearly, a contributor who refuses to comply with requirements regarding disclosure of paid editing until obliged to by evidence cannot be trusted to have fully disclosed such paid advocacy now, and cannot be trusted to make such disclosures in future. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Highly problematic in a number of respects, and showing no sign of contrition. Has damaged the project and the signs are will continue to do so if allowed to. Alexbrn 17:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support an indef block. Don't waste your time on the SPIs though. About the one thing I hate more than petty-minded tuppenny Hitlers who think they're it because they have admin rights is sock puppets. There are more urgent problems needing sorted out on Misplaced Pages than Phantom Pherguses that aren't even there.--FergusM1970 17:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Alexbrn and per the comments above by FergusM1970, who makes the case for his own ban more eloquently than anyone else possibly could. Formerly 98 (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Most of what I do is real writing and I am pretty good at it. Perhaps you could buy my chupacabra novella for a few young adult relatives this Christmas? It's on Amazon. You can find a link at my Elance profile, seeing as you all enjoy having a good poke around there.--FergusM1970 18:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support per ATG. Violating ToS in regards to paid editing (and then lying about it to boot) should always be an insta-ban. Any attempt to play the victim in the e-cig realm is just an irrelevant diversion (and bad faith at that, given it was being used to attempt to get someone else sanctioned while simultaneously engaged in own misbehavior). If we cannot trust what he says, how can we have good-faith discussions or accept at face value that given cites support content? DMacks (talk) 18:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support indef block/ban. User does not appear to be making edits in good faith. ElectricBurst 18:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. I'd have blocked me half an hour ago. The suspense is killing me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FergusM1970 (talk • contribs) 18:17, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

• Support bc of the lying, a misuse of community trust. Avono (talk) 18:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

God, this is painful. Or pitiful, one of the two. Someone just please pull the trigger FFS. It's not like it's controversial, is it? Even I don't disagree!--FergusM1970 18:40, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

FergusM1970, what's being proposed here is a community ban, not just a block. It's a more serious matter because you will have to appeal to the entire community or ArbCom to be able to edit again. Normally the discussion will stay open for at least 24 hours so people have a chance to weigh in. If you're really eager to be blocked during the discussion I'll oblige, but maybe you'd like a chance to be part of the conversation. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 20:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban - In my opinion, there's no place at all on Misplaced Pages for paid editing, but even if one takes the position that paid editing is allowed as long as the editor is totally out front about the COI, this editor doesn't qualify for a pass. BMK (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban from wikipedia and also from e-cig topic areas. In terms of the e-cig. I'm willing to accept that the twitter shill thing was probably sarcasm, it dooes seem like it was only added recently. So it's possible there's for once no paid editing (alhough the denials obviously don't mean much in themselves and it appears they have been paid to write in this area before for something). However the problems the editor has shown in this topic area combined with the fact it appears to be something they care strongly about and the poor history suggests they probably should be kept well away from it for a long time. As for the general ban, well the paid editing is bad enough. The initial denial was not only poor form and dumb (I mean the links on the blog still work, so it should be obvious even without the blog it won't be hard to work out), but suggests an extremely poor level of basic research or something equally bad.

  To explain, I found the wordpress blog about FergusM1970" & Derwick Associates a few hours ago by simply searching for the name "FergusM1970". I didn't mention it here because of our outing policy and figured someone else (e.g. DarkFalls) would likely bring it to arbcom. Also, although at the time FergusM1970 had added stuff to their username without mention of Derwick Associates, they hadn't explicitly denied (that I saw) that they edited that article for payment, this was before they claimed they came across it via the random article here. Since the wordpress blog is dated late 2013, I'm guessing it's been easily findable for most of this year just like I did. While searching for yourself may seem a little vain, if you're going to try hiding some of your paid editing, logic would suggest you should perhaps at least search for your name just to make sure there isn't something widely known if you haven't done it in a while. So either this wasn't done, which raises very serious WP:competence issues for a place like wikipedia where research is necessary. Or searching was done but FergusM1970 either thought no one else would find it, or they'd already decided to go out in a blaze of glory. None of these scenarios suggests FergusM1970 should be allowed back easily.

  Nil Einne (talk) 21:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree; in fact I shouldn't be allowed back at all. It would probably give me hypertension or ulcers or something. More desk splinters in my head, at least. Anyway, someone actually sent me a link to the blog last year, but I just shook my head ruefully and forgot about it; you'll appreciate that from a moderately talented writer's point of view it wasn't exactly the high point of my career to date. When Sandy posted the link I had a major WTF moment. Never mind. You're spot on about the "shill" thing. Any time we dare question The Word Of The Almighty Glantz about vaping we get labeled as paid advocates, shills etc. We're just people who don't want to smoke any more, have found a solution and aren't going to let it be taken away, so it's pretty bloody annoying.--FergusM1970 21:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The point is, if you're going to blatantly lie about your actions, it makes sense that you should know your lies are not discoverable within about 10 seconds by searching for your wikipedia name (i.e. the most basic research of all). And wikipedia does require some degree of basic research skills, beyond simple writing skills so whatever you skills in the later, the apparent lack of any in the former does cause grave concern. (Since you're a freelance writer, I would have thought it matters there too. But that's obviously between you and your employers and the nature of wikipedia disputes means this probably won't become something people are likely to find.) For that matter, forgetting that you were already caught out suggests an inability to remember important stuff. Important for the reasons I mentioned earlier (i.e. an area not to continue to lie about), not because the blog may have been a high or low point of your career. Nil Einne (talk) 21:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I take your point. I generally am pretty good at research, although some of my skills are a bit specialized, but I certainly dropped a bollock on that one. As for it being important, it really wasn't; I've done a few hundred writing jobs by this point (mostly not on Misplaced Pages, by the way) and that was one of my earlier ones. Anyway I have a lot to do, and what was the point of making a big effort? I should have listed it, but it wouldn't have made any difference in the end. Oh well, I could always go to Conservapedia; they're positively allergic to fact-checking. And facts. Anyway, there's probably enough of a consensus to ban me now, don't you think?--FergusM1970 22:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Well I never said anything about a big effort. As mentioned, 10 seconds, i.e. probably less time than it took you to write the silly random article comment or any one of your replies on this page was all it took. I'm not saying the job itself was important. I am saying the issue itself was important because for whatever reason you apparently decided it was something to lie about. And there's a big difference between not listing it or mentioning it, and coming here to claim you found it from the random article link which is clearly untrue. As mentioned earlier, when I first came here and found that page, the only thing of note was you didn't list it, which seemed silly but not such a big deal. Oh and there were the insinuations by DarkFalls, the primary thing which made me search for your wikipedia name, and I would have thought you too. I come back to find you dug yourself in to a very big hole for whatever bizzare reason by saying you came across the page by the random article function. Unless you're now claiming you not only forgot about the blog, you forgot you were paid to edit the article, and then just made up some crap about "random articles" rather than going through your records to check, or at least just not saying anything if you didn't know, which is almost as silly. Presuming you are really editing e-cigs solely for personal and not professional reasons, you should by now appreciate it was incredibly silly. Paid editing is frequently look upon very poorly, and when you have that history, it best to not get involved in anything controversial you care about. It pays even more if you're not willing to be upfront about your paid editing when challenged (or at least run away rather than making up silly stuff). Frankly if I had the same feelings about you towards e-cig articles I would be majorly pissed, fortunately I don't really give a damn (or if anything lean more the other direction). Nil Einne (talk) 22:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I forgot the blog but I did remember editing the article, of course. As I said, not something I'm very proud of; I realized fairly quickly that Derwick were, if maybe not as bad as Batiz said, well on the way.--FergusM1970 22:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah but that's the point isn't it? Even if all it was is you were embarassed to admit you'd edited it perhaps because of what you found out about the company, it's a little bit silly to then forget someone had already noted your involvement. And so think it's okay to come up with this random article story which frankly is about as silly as those "my brother did it" that we get, generally from minors. (As said, even having forgotten someone had already noted your involvement, it's also a little silly to think no one would find out when the pages where you were awarded the jobs are public.) These comedy of errors all adds up to suggesting you're "not someone we want on wikipedia" even given the most generous spin. (And I've now spend probably an order of magnitude or two more time replying than I ever did searching & reading about your paid editing, so won't be replying further even if this does further illustrate my point.) Nil Einne (talk) 22:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

As I say, I really didn't give it that much thought. After all what was the big deal?--FergusM1970 22:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

From my point of view obviously. I appreciate it was a major breach of TOS, although I didn't know about disclosure until today.--FergusM1970 22:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban for clear violations of our terms of service regarding paid editing. The editor has proven that they are not here to build a neutral, well-referenced encyclopedia. The massive chip on the shoulder seals the deal. I recommend that the paying clients ask for refunds, since a more honest and constructive attitude to editing may have helped to improve rather than disrupt the articles in question. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban per above. Should Fergus be allowed to return it should be subject to an indefinite topic ban in eCigs at the very least, if not also all topic areas related to products, businesses, and medicine (given the paid editing concerns). I also suggest referring this to the Foundation for the type of TOS-level ban that we've started to see enforced lately. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban. Wow. About 10 years in the purgatory that is Conser-vape-pedia might be just deserts. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh god, I was joking! I actually got permabanned from Conservapedia about an hour after finishing The Greatest Show On Earth. User:Conservative created a whole blog about me. They're not as bureaucratic as here but damn, they get really excitable when you mention Richard Lenski. Nah, RatWiki's more my scene. It's OK to snark there, and if anyone launches personal attacks everyone else just breaks out the popcorn.--FergusM1970 22:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

"I know I don't smoke. I don't inhale because it gives you cancer. But, I look so incredibly handsome with a cigarette in my hand ... that I can't not hold one." - "Woodbine" Allen. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I have a bit of a thing for steampunk, so I actually prefer big polished steel or brass devices. The whole "not dying in my 40s" thing is just a bonus.--FergusM1970 22:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

With so many people arguing to ban me I almost feel like I should put up a fight. It seems somehow rude not to. How about, as a compromise, you give me an indef topic ban from everything but let me fix spelling, punctuation and grammar? I'm not really fussed either way but you'd get to banhammer me and, seeing as I'll still be using Misplaced Pages for research every day, I won't boil my blood looking at all the errors. As I say, it's no biggie, but this way if anyone's really annoyed I've asked for something you can say no to. Just a thought. Obviously I won't take any money from advocates of the Oxford Comma; even I will only stoop so low.--FergusM1970 22:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Just a comment from a disinterested editor here (and not having read completely the volumes above), but instead of willfully accepting an indefinite topic ban, why don't you instead willfully make a concerted effort to absorb the criticisms given and indefinitely change the behavior that seems to have irked people so? Seems that might make everyone happy... quite possibly even you. – JBarta (talk) 23:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

In principle I'd say yes, but I've thought about it and I'd rather just make a clean break. I've been at Misplaced Pages for more than seven years and there's no doubt the atmosphere has changed. While a lot of the hierarchy are admirably flexible and helpful, plenty more are the sort of people who, in another life, would have been traffic wardens or public sector customer service staff - always too eager to reach for a rule and apply it as narrowly as possible. My nemesis, Doc James, is a perfect example; he's forever gold-plating rules. There's another one below; certain types of paid editing are strongly discouraged, and others are a WP:N violation, but as long as you follow the rules (I didn't) there's no blanket ban. Gold-plating, either through applying rules he/she isn't familiar with or out of bloody-mindedness. No, it's just a less welcoming place now. That's why so many new editors don't stick around; some tinpot Stalin jumps on their first edit waving a fistful of acronyms and they just say "Bugger this, I'm off to watch cat videos." My heart isn't in it any more. Sorry; I do appreciate the thought.--FergusM1970 23:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

In fact I'll expand on that. If a new editor turns up and starts editing on e-cigs Doc immediately decides they're either an SPA or a puppet of me. Except maybe they're just someone who saw the article about a fast-growing activity, realized how shit the writing is and wanted to improve it. They're not going to feel very welcome when they're greeted with that sort of suspicion and hostility.--FergusM1970 23:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, I've been here for going on TEN years and I find it to be much the same. Over time, immersion can create the illusion of things getting worse simply because negative experiences pile up in our memory... but the issues were always there... you're just noticing them more. I too have had a run-in with DocJames and found him a less than exemplar co-editor (at least in that encounter) but that could as easily be said about anyone by anyone else... and he may well feel the same about me. Such is the nature of the Misplaced Pages beast. A bunch of passionate, overly-blessed-with-intelligence editors, usually of differing views, different approaches and many with a combative streak all tossed into a pot and expected to get along. The reality is a dysfunctional bastard of the ideal... but in the end it does work. At any rate, it seems you have made up your mind. If you dive back in at some point, I hope this episode will result in future editing to go a little smoother for you. – JBarta (talk) 23:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You could have a point there. My experience is that organisations tend to ossify over time, and my assumption is that that's also happening here, but I'm certainly not going to bet my life's savings on it. But yes, I have made up my mind. I'll sort of miss it, and I do think I've made plenty of good-quality edits that have improved the encyclopaedia, but the topics that actually interest me are minefields and there's limited satisfaction in fixing the typos or grammar fuckups I find while I'm researching. It's especially frustrating that this has blown up just when we were starting to make real progress on the e-cig article, by concentrating on the bloody awful writing and leaving the content pretty much alone, but hey. You win some, you lose some. And now I'm off to finish an eBook on Louis Vuitton because, unlike the e-cig article, I get paid for that. Have a good one.--FergusM1970 23:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban Paid editing is prohibited by the TOS per here this isn't a Misplaced Pages English policy this is a Wikimedia foundation policy. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually no, it isn't. Not as a blanket policy anyway.--FergusM1970 23:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban It is possible to argue that being a paid advocate can lead to improved articles, but there is no way to pretend that the encyclopedia is assisted by a paid advocate who bludgeons editors trying to oppose such advocacy, as seen with the provocative language in this section alone. Johnuniq (talk) 23:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah well, I've done exactly one paid advocacy job, a year and a half ago, and I was glad to be shot of it. I don't think it improves the articles at all.--FergusM1970 23:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

That's not what your user-page says unless that "one job" was multiple articles. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference between paid writing and paid advocacy, or more precisely one includes the other. I did one paid advocacy job, on Derwick Associates.--FergusM1970 23:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

This is actually the most enjoyable night I've had on Misplaced Pages for a long time. I'm even swearing less because I don't have that frustrating feeling of banging my head into a flabby, amorphous mass of bureaucratic dough. So, in a weird kind of way, thanks guys.--FergusM1970 01:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban and refer to WMF Legal as per my threat above. MER-C 02:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - A warning will suffice. Most of FergusM1970's edits have been generally constructive. -A1candidate (talk) 02:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, don't bother. Even I'm not opposing it. I agree that a lot of my edits have been constructive, perhaps even most (and the vast majority were certainly unpaid, including all of them before 2013) but I'm not temperamentally suited to this sort of consensus-building process. I'm happy to leave; it's time. Everyone will be happier, and if anyone misses me they can come visit me at Twitter. Let it go.--FergusM1970 03:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter, the fact is that Fergus got paid for it which means someone benefited from having the information added, money talks big in the real world and sometimes WP:AGF can only go so far. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support ban - I almost don't want to !vote because it seems like piling on at this point - so perhaps it's time to close this. FergusM1970 is violating the Terms of Use and many policies and guidelines, e.g. WP:NOTADVOCATE, but he is also clearly violating an important part of WP:PAY

"Paid editors, especially those who are paid by the hour, or who submit "billable hours" to justify their salaries, must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep discussions concise. No editor should be subjected to long or repetitive discussions by someone who is being paid to argue with them. Any editor who refuses to accept a consensus against his or her position by arguing ad nauseam will likely be violating several Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies, e.g. WP:Tendentious editing, WP:Disruptive editing, WP:WikiBullying, WP:Own or WP:Civility."

This is a key reason that it can be impossible to deal with paid editors - they never shut up. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Not that it's particularly important now, but I haven't accepted hourly-paid jobs for a long time, only fixed price ones. I did violate WP:PAY, however, because I didn't disclose that I was being paid.--FergusM1970 03:45, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I am also a self-employed freelancer, but the difference between FergusM1970 and me is that I have never accepted a penny as payment for editing Misplaced Pages and never will. I edit Misplaced Pages as a volunteer activity. In my off-Misplaced Pages work, sometimes I work on a fixed price basis, and sometimes on an hourly basis. I make that decision based entirely on whether or not I can accurately predict in advance, based on past experience, how long a given job will take. One approach to pricing is not morally superior to the other. In both cases, I am fully committed to the best interests of my paying customer, disclosing to them everything that I know as a professional in my field, that they may not be aware of. I have my doubts that this editor has informed his paying clients of the risks they face in doing business with such a sloppy editor. As a published freelance writer for decades, I am almost as unhappy for deceived clients as I am for this editor's disruption of the encyclopedia. I recommend the virtues of silence to this editor, who seems to enjoy spouting off in a most inappropriate way. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Shrugs. I'm not making any moral claims. Hourly just doesn't work for me. Anyway my clients seem happy enough.--FergusM1970 05:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

At this point I feel a consensus is clear would anyone be willing to close this so we can move on to other things? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Suits me, although I wouldn't mind finishing my conversation with Doc. No biggie. Maybe I could ask him to ban me when we're done?--FergusM1970 05:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I reversed the closure as premature. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Given the contentious nature of the subject being discussed (debated/argued/lambasted/beleaguered), how can this result in anything but a gathering of those opposed to paid editing? Any vote to the contrary will simply be used in the future to call into question the neutrality of their edits. I'm not for or against the issue, but debating this issue should not require a scapegoat. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally I'm fine with getting banned, because Misplaced Pages eats up far too much time when I could be doing something constructive instead, but you have a very valid point. This is not a referendum on paid editing, because paid editing is not against the rules. I am not being banned for taking money to make edits. I am being banned for taking money to make edits without subsequently disclosing it, as I should have done.--FergusM1970 21:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

OPPOSE this vote - --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm bored. Can we talk about how Doc James claimed to be a clinical assistant professor on his user page despite the University of British Columbia faculty site not listing him as one?--FergusM1970 21:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Impressive. So here we have Fergus editing my user page

Yes UBC is slow at updating their website.

Here is a link

And here are the tweets that he cc me on and sent to UBC about this suposed discrepancy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I didn't CC you anything, Doc, and you cannot hold me responsible for what other people do.--FergusM1970 23:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry yes, you just sent them to UBC. It was your friends that cc'ed me Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, it might spur them into updating the list a bit faster. I've asked people not to tweet you but I can't stop them, and the fact is a lot of vapers are angry with you.--FergusM1970 23:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

86.2.216.5

This individual has accused me of copyright violations, but after I have asked him where. He has simply ignored my questions. He basically called me a liar and has had a very rude tone with me in general.

Ater I repeatedly asked him where my alleged copyvio's were he stated my userspace. . I am sure that he knows that userspace isn't for copyright as he has fixed references on my userspace. He puts forth the claim that I am upset that articles I wrote had delete votes. I have authored over 40 articles, and if someone votes to delete it, I don't take it to heart. What I find bothersome as per WP:HOUND is that this user has been going through wikipedia, editing a good number of articles that I am at, my userspace articles, and AFD's. .

This is not his first issue of disruptive editing. and warning to those who report him. I asked that he stop following me on pages, insulting me, and editing my userpages. CrazyAces489 (talk) 07:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I just looked through those links, what exactly is the behavior in question? It simply appears to be someone taking a contrary point of view and expressing concerns. If I am missing something please point it out. Chillum 07:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I am being falsely accused of copyviolations, called me a liar, etc. Also about 50% of his edits this month have been on articles I created or participated in or on my userfied articles. 30% of his edits from mid october are on my userspace, articles I created or userspace. I am not sure who (s)he is, but his recent behavior has caused me to become annoyed as per wiki hound. I ask that you have him stay away from me. I am only trying to create good articles. His name calling and otherwise rude behavior isn't helping my desire at doing this. CrazyAces489 (talk) 07:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by "userspace isn't for copyright"? (A copyright violation is a copyright violation, wherever it is). Squinge (talk) 09:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Squinge, I have not copied any text from any website. I summarize information and place a reference on my userspace. CrazyAces489 (talk) 11:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I responded to your question re the copyvio and posted the relevant link at least twice. Two of the pertinent parts: "I linked the relevant details re the copyright issue when stated above, WP:CWW contributions to wikipedia are subject to a license which requires attribution, copying and pasting a whole article loses that attribution so is in breach of the license. " and "You cut and paste the whole article, the original article in your userspace has more editors than just you. Those users as per the link given licensed the text requiring attribution, that's where the problem arises.". If you followed the link WP:CWW it's about copying within wikipedia, cutting and pasting an article around wikipedia loses attribution. That is the case here (and another you recently have done into user space). That's a copyright issue. It's not the biggest issue in the world and in this case would be easy to fix, but it's an issue.

As for the rest of your claims I'd like you to back them up, I have presented a situation with the evidence, you are inferring from that various things and then attributing those things you've inferred to me. As for hounding you, that's laughable. I've engaged with you on two discussions both in the last few days, other than those (and this now) there is no turning up everywhere and making your life difficult. I noticed one article on DRV a while back and put some effort into fixing the citation into proper citation templates, something which was highlighted by others in the DRV and something others have spoken to you about. You know I did that because I half suspected if you stripped away the junk there might be an article there. If helping out constitutes hounding then I am at a loss.

In this overall case I have pointed out and instance where you have ignored the consensus in a DRV and gone ahead and recreated the article, I've fixed citations on a user space draft or two, I've fixed citations on a mainspace page and tagged it for questionable notability. Rather than accept that the recreation wasn't too wise and appreciate the effort spent tidying the articles you'd rather attempt to ban me from pointing out any future problems like the first one. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 10:10, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

One more thing with regards the mudslinging suggesting I've been warned before please see this. My user talk page was tagged with a warning by an obvious vandal since I'd tagged one of his hoax articles for deletion. Another user obviously not familar with user page policy decide I wasn't permitted to remove such warnings from own talk page. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 10:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I ask that you stay off of articles that I am editing in my userspace. The point of me using it is to create an article and move it to userspace. I neither invited you nor did I want your edits. You have followed me onto many articles for I am not sure what reason. you openly mocked me and have put me down on even this AN/I . How are over 50% of your edits this month on articles I have either created or interact on? You have been following me on articles since the middle of October. I created this article Latoya Hanson and you edit on it within two days? That is WP:HOUND . I am not sure who you are or what you want with me. If I have interacted with you on a username or an article before, please tell me so that I won't edit on that article. I am unsure why you are following me around. CrazyAces489 (talk) 10:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Ownership_of_articles#User_pages the edits are valid edits fixing the citation style. I have not followed you onto many articles, I have edited that one in your userspace having seen it at DRV to fix citations, more recently I fixed a duplicate citation in another article you listed on DRV (I hang around DRV generally) and finally I fixed some citations on Latoya Hanson which I saw when reviewing your edits. That is 3 articles where I have fixed citation style, not many articles. I am not hounding you (You should read WP:HOUND "...and joining discussions on multiple pages..." as noted above I've engaged in two related discussions with your over the last few days and that's it, hardly following you around), as previously stated I could easily have gone to the AFDs which are running at the moment and just blindly voted delete if I wanted to annoy you. Your sole annoyance seems to come from the fact that I was willing to point out that you had recreated an article in direct contravention of the DRV consensus. If it helps I will voluntarily agree not to bother trying to fix the articles in your userspace. I will not be restricted from fixing issues on articles on mainspace regardless of who wrote the or commenting at DRV/AfD. If you want to avoid scrutiny I suggest you start reading and understanding the policies before acting, perhaps a mentor? --86.2.216.5 (talk) 11:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You can vote as you please. That isn't what bothered me. Following me around making inflammatory comments toward me is annoying. You stating that I am disingenuous and knowingly violating wiki policy is bothering me. I have not done this.

There are hundreds if not thousands of articles that you can go on. A large percentage of your edits are on my articles since October 14!

1. Latoya Hanson
2. User:CrazyAces489/Ron Duncan
3. User:CrazyAces489/Jorge Gracie
4. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kiyoshi Shiina (2nd nomination)
5. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ronald Duncan (martial arts) (2nd nomination) ‎

"Wikihounding WP:HOUND is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." I am telling you now that I am annoyed with you following me around. Please stop! Please!CrazyAces489 (talk) 11:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I highlighted the significant part for you and I'll do it again. joining discussions, which I haven't done, but you seem to think "you can vote as you please" is fine. You have this policy 100% the wrong way around. Of those you list one is a discussion I joined in (and one doesn't make following around), and one is a discussion where I made a minor tweak to not include fair use images outside article space where our WP:NFCC requires them to be. These are both in the last few days. Again your complaint of this on going hounding is nonsense. I've been fixing citations that is not some dark way to irritate people, it's a way of improving the encyclopedia. I've been doing this without any other interaction with your for a while, since the DRV where one editor pointed out " Needs work on the format of the references.", and another "the references are very poorly formatted.", I'll contrast that with your response to the DRV where people bemoaned the poor formatting, using unreliable sources etc. Your response - ignore the formatting and just pile in a load more trivial and/or unreliable references. I'm really wondering if there is a WP:COMPETENCE issue here. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 12:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment since we are here having this discussion and I don't want to now go to one of the AFDs and comment, can someone independent take a look at this and this which appear to be notes to two editors who previously opined keep and seems to be a WP:CANVAS problem. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Since the two of you only seem to be talking to each other you can do this on one of your talk pages. If you wish a response from an administrator then just wait for one. Chillum 23:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I will wait for an admin. I simply ask that he stops following me around. CrazyAces489 (talk) 10:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Since no other admin has commented I will give my opinion. I think that CrazyAces has taken offense at what is legitimate criticism. I think that Mr. 86.2.216.5 may be in the right but despite that should be the bigger person and avoid CA as much as is reasonable to do. If neither of you object I would like to close this discussion. If not then I will take that to be an indication that administrative action is desired. Chillum 10:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Firstly I object to CrazyAces489 characterization of following him around, let alone on many pages. He managed to come up with 5 pages we had in common, two of which were drafts listed at DRV which I frequent and have done so for a long time, if he wants to avoid DRV then that's fine, but I'm certainly not going to feel bound to ignore stuff listed there due to the authorship, nor making tweaks to obvious minor problems with the articles like citation style. The other two are not articles, but deletion discussions related to the DRV, so same there. I'll also note his main gripe of me editing his userspace is somewhat peculiar, since as I noted I've been gradually chipping away at the cites for two months without a word or problem. It's only now that I point something out he's all in a flap about it, I'll contrast that to other similar things from DRV like Honour (film) which in part is back in main space due to the effort I put in, the original author of that is flapping around shouting the odds. That all said, as I said many paragraphs ago and this could easily have stopped then, but has just continued to be poked at "If it helps I will voluntarily agree not to bother trying to fix the articles in your userspace." And with that it's Christmas and I'll be away for a few days, so have fun --86.2.216.5 (talk) 11:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

His "help" has come with relatively rude comments to me on "AFD's." I am again asking an admin to speak to him about these comments to me. I wold prefer he NOT follow me around Misplaced Pages. CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

At this point it is not likely this is going to get an admin response. I see nothing wrong with the IPs actions, CA needs to take criticism better. This IP has been working in the AfD areas for several weeks now and if you edit there you are likely to see this IP. Since no admin actionable behavior is happening here I suggest you two work it out of your talk pages, learn to work together or just ignore each other. Chillum 16:33, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Vejvančický refuses to change tack

I request some assistance again with respect to Vejvančický. On 13th December I had written here requesting suggestions on how to handle user Vejvančický who was repeatedly attacking me and refusing to back off despite my request. Jehochman suggested to Vejvančický to not refer to me again on Misplaced Pages, except to request arbitration, or to make peace. Vejvančický confirmed on his talk page that he would follow Jehochman's suggestion. Unfortunately, the very next edit that Vejvančický made after that, which was today on the talk page of an article in reply to some IP,, Vejvančický again has made a personal attack mentioning my name and various references of mine to again (and again) allege his allusion that the article was created (ostensibly by me) to show the subject in bad light. To the IP, Vejvančický chats up about starting an arbitration request (!!) and that these links alluding to me should be pasted on the talk page of the article for editors not familiar with the situation. I request help for some kind of a closure on this. If Vejvančický wants to file an arbitration request, he's welcome to do that. But he should, in my opinion, at least follow some decorum in the meanwhile. Any guidance to handle this will be welcome... Wifione 11:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Retire. That would be the honourable thing to do. Your activity was seen for what it was a long time ago. Andreas JN466 18:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to spend time now reading the very long backstory here. The advice I gave was for that editor to ignore you, or to go provide his claims at Arbitration. If he ignored my advice, my intention was to file arbitration myself to get the issue resolved one way or the other. Since I'm too busy to do that today, I suggest you go file Arbitration and get these issues cleared up once and for all. Jehochman 00:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Wifione, your comment above, "Vejvančický confirmed on his talk page that he would follow Jehochman's suggestion" is misleading. Vejvančický actually said, "Hello Jehochman. I'll follow your suggestion ad (1)"

The "(1)" he agreed to was Jehochman's first suggestion: "(1) if you want to file a request for arbitration to desysop or ban him". He agreed to none of Jehochman's other suggestions in that conversation.

You are an obviously biased editor. Your biased editing of articles about that business and its owner and their competitors is sufficient to have you desysopped and banned from Misplaced Pages.

You appear to be an employee or contractor of the company: you (most likely, given the circumstances and nature of the edit, or someone else) editing from that company's network made a maintenance edit to your user page. But proving a financial connection beyond doubt will be difficult. Fortunately, that won't be necessary. The blatant tendentiousness of your editing alone disqualifies you from participating here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Jayen, Anthony, thanks for commenting. I've read your viewpoints and disagree with your views completely. I do realise the genesis of your opinions lies on another website where you've been judiciously prompted to provide this analysis. Given this connection both of you have outside our project, I don't think any reply of mine might suffice for you, although I would be more than eager to provide them to you in case you might wish. At the same time, I should thank you for taking the time out to comment (honestly, I suspect I would have died in embarrassment if no one from your group had commented). Wifione 18:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Jehochman, thanks for your reply. Would take up the matter procedurally from hereon in case Vej continues his personal attacks. Thanks. Wifione 18:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

(Wifione closed this discussion with the comment, "Closing discussion and following this up procedurally." Well, I've re-opened it procedurally, in order to respond to this shill.)

I don't do anyone's bidding here. You do. For that, you'll be banned. I saw this mentioned on Wikipediocracy and was stunned that you weren't banned the last time this arose. Resign, or drag your client through a humiliating spectacle. I don't care which you choose. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi again Andrew. It's not about anyone's bidding, but your off-Wiki coordination leading unto these comments and personal attacks from you, Jayen and the others belonging to your group that are quite obvious from your off-Wiki discussions with others. Like I said above, although it might be useless for me to reiterate it given your antecedents, let me again put forward that your attacks and outing attempts are extremely misdirected. Having said that, I'll again close this discussion with the slim hope that you and your off-Wiki group would see some sense in not running down a very ludicrous path. Again, although it might seem out of character, in return to your comments above let me wish you and your off-Wiki group a merry Christmas. It's not meant to prove anything or to slight you all... just plain old wishes the plain old way. Take care and wishes for the season. Wifione 15:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I've undone Wifione's second hatting of this section. Per WP:INVOLVED, I really don't think it's a good look for an admin to make repeated attempts to close a discussion about their own behaviour because it isn't going the way they'd like it to. It doesn't matter who started the discussion, an involved editor has no place closing it. When you bring an issue to WP:ANI, the behaviour of all parties will be examined. I'm sure that's written down somewhere, and I'm sure an admin such as Wifi should know that. Thanks. Begoon  15:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Suggest topic ban for Wifione from all Chaudhuri related articles, broadly construed. Would solve most of the problems fairly quickly. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It's a good idea, and the minimum we should do really, but it doesn't address the amount of sheer deflection this guy has done, whilst an admin, to continue the POV pushing, the disappearance for months while good faith editors waited for a response at his editor review, or the arrogant disregard towards concerns. Hell, even Jimbo said he hoped the guy would just slink off quietly. That didn't happen. We have to deal with it. It should be easy.

This is an editor with admin priveleges giving Misplaced Pages an enormously bad name, who has tried every trick to avoid accountability.

I voted for the guy at RFA. He fooled me. I'm embarassed now because this is so transparent. Begoon 

Begoon, I noticed that you too have landed here after being prompted by Wikipediocracy colleagues. And you too have unhatted this discussion. I won't rearchive this discussion, for your benefit. But would suggest that it'll be better if there be less personal attacks whilst you wish to discuss any issue that I might have deflected. I have complete regard for any issues this project's community members have, but no regard for Wikipediocracy canvassing and attempts to out me. The editor review you mention was opened up by me, and not by anyone else. I don't think I've left any question of any of this community's members unanswered. If I've treated Wikipediocracy members who commented on my Editor Review with less regard for their queries, that purely is because of the legacy they come with. I do hope you're able to see the issue for what it is. I'll keep a watch on this discussion for any comments that may be required of me from this community's members. Thanks. Wifione 17:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Drop the WP:BADSITES related bollocks. Everyone who has called for you to go here at ANI is a long-term Misplaced Pages user in good standing. Hell, Begoon voted for you at your RfA. Newyorkbrad and Worm That Turned are retiring arbitrators who are active on WO - if they came here and banned you, would you whine about them? WO editors are not "sheep", there is no house POV, no one was canvassed. The issue is very straightforward; you're a corrupt shill who is trying to censor all criticism of yourself. If you had one shred of integrity, you'd have quit for good after your editor review. There are no personal attacks here at all, merely statements of fact. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:22, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing will happen here as the issue is too complex. Someone needs to start a user subpage for collecting evidence of on-wiki edits that show a problem, and perhaps post here to invite contributions. I have no idea whether there is any basis to all the claims. One reason to be skeptical is that many misguided editors trying to puff up organizations, particularly those in India, and it is quite possible that people who do not like Indian Institute of Planning and Management have posted junk there over the years, junk that Wifione has removed. The WP:LTA/IAC case shows that hysteria does not mean the accused is guilty. Accordingly, some solid work needs to occur to compile evidence. Per WP:POLEMIC, an evidence page would have to be actively worked on with an aim to presenting a case, probably at Arbcom. Many of us would be glad to assist, but those who believe there is a problem need to document what is known beyond vague claims. Johnuniq (talk) 22:47, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• That already exists - Misplaced Pages:Editor review/Wifione. Also, do you seriously think that Wifione would let such a userpage exist? No, it would be deleted and obfuscated wherever they could do it. Why should we have to document things again, just because some people can't be bothered to look at existing pages like this one? Half the evidence is inaccessible to non-admins anyway, because Wifione has already hidden it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:04, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The only reason there could be to believe that Misplaced Pages:Editor review/Wifione doesn't contain all the necessary evidence would be that the reader has been successfully blinded and exhausted by wifione's walls of deflection. Just try reading it without those comments. Nevertheless, if necessary, I'll spend a few minutes a day over a short period distilling it to something less daunting. Can't start that for a few days though, so if someone else gets to it first, excellent. I reiterate, though, that it is all already on that page, and it's a shame if obvious TLDR obfuscation tactics succeed in obscuring that. Begoon  01:51, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

User:The Rapper Nyn T

The Rapper Nyn T (talk · contribs) has repeatedly shown that he does not have the minimum competence to be editing at Misplaced Pages. He has repeatedly created articles about himself, and then recreated the article content in Talk: space, and in his own User talk page. This edit shows him completely disregarding attempts to contact him, once again to create article content (about himself) in his user talk page. This edit shows him trying to create material about himself in the Misplaced Pages talk: space. I have asked him to stop, read the guidelines, and seek mentorship, but he apparently wants no part of that. I believe a temporary block will serve to stop his incorrect behavior and force him to learn the ropes. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 20:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked for 31 hours. I was tempted to indef this time, and I definitely will if the behavior resumes. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It resumed. See User:Nyn T ( Rapper ). I've blocked both accounts indefinitely now. NawlinWiki (talk) 15:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

It has been my position for some time that an account in the name of a brand-name, such as a performer's stage name, is a species of advertisement for the "personal brand" they are attempting to build. Every such account I've ever seen has been used to publicize their career, either on the userpage or by creating a promotional "article" or both. I routinely block such accounts as spamusernames, and leave the usual message urging them to open new accounts without the spammy name, and to respect our rules on COI, promotion and autobiography. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Range block genius wanted for dealing with Tamaulipas vandal

Hi admins, a Mexico-based IP keeps vandalizing articles and hopping IPs. This has been going on for the better part of 2014 (I first noticed them circa April/May 2014.) I believe they are the same operators who were disrupting Ilion Animation Studios and United Plankton Pictures, which resulted in both articles being protected. Most of the IPs geolocate to the Mexican state Tamaulipas, and I think most of them are from the ISP Uninet S.A. de C.V. There has been a recent flurry of activity at Peep and the Big Wide World.

Anyhow, it's clearly disruptive, so if anybody can come up with a plan for dealing with this user, it would be much appreciated. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The subranges are 189.235.0.0/16, 189.250.192.0/18. I looked as a CU, and both of them have significant logged-in editing, as well as a small amount of productive logged out editing. There is also some account creation. If we were to block them, it would probably be best to start with a short term and see efficacy, and then extend length if necessary. Also, account creation should probably be left enabled, at least at first, to minimize collateral. NativeForeigner 22:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Any other thoughts are welcome, if nobody else has an opinion I'll action it in a couple hours. NativeForeigner 22:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi @NativeForeigner:, thanks for looking into this! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm having trouble loading some WMF tools today, so can't view the range contributions to see if other pages are also being targeted. The article Peep and the Big Wide World (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) had just come off a 3-week semi-protection that expired just over 24 hours ago. Due to the considerable IP disruption today, I have extended the semi-protection for an additional 3-months. If this article is the primary focus of the disruptive user behind the IP, then range-blocks may not be necessary if there's risk of collateral impact. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not aware of the extent of the editing--I mentioned Ilion and United Plankton above, also Peep. Dragon Tales is another. I don't get the sense that they are interested in too many articles, but they are persistent, and as soon as a protection expires, they come back fairly quickly to damage the article, as you already mentioned with Peep. Another example, here they returned within 3 days of the protection being lifted. I hadn't linked specific logged in users to this IP vandal, so depending on what those accounts are editing, a different story could unfold. Grazie. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

As a result of this I'll do some fairly extensive semi=protection, and we'll see how that holds, or if he gains new interests. NativeForeigner 00:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Scratch the above, I'll look into it in some more detail. Not all of it is pure vandalism. The following articles have been edited by the IP ranges, and are in the same subject area: Dragon Tales, Cubeez, Fetch the Vet, Peep and the Big Wide World, Engie Benjy, Oggy and the Cockroaches, Henry's World, ¡Mucha_Lucha!, Franklin (TV series), Zoboomafoo, and maybe a couple others, this is just the last three months. NativeForeigner 00:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Native, I took a look at some of the articles you linked to. This edit from the IP range at Oggy and the Cockroaches is vandalism. We would never have that many companies listed in the network parameter for instance, and the content is a resubmission of this At Cubeez are eight consecutive edits that have zero net result followed by another two pointless edits at Fetch the Vet for a total of 10 "test" edits. Most of the IP range's edits at Henry's World were reverted, like this unsupported cat and these obviously disruptive category changes. At Mucha Lucha we find an unsourced network addition, unsourced company, a bizarre addition after the bcdb template at the bottom, but if that's not convincing as vandalism, this edit a few hours later at Dragon Tales again floods the company parameter. There was this useless edit at Zoboomafoo. I have yet to see anything of value come out of this range. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Kapoork

@Kapoork: has been edit warring at Kanika Kapoor to insert unsourced biographical details, and has responded with a personal attack when being reverted. Explanations and friendly warnings have been given, and on their own I don't think those edits are cause for action yet. But I think editing under a user name that implies this is Ms Kapoor herself is problematic, especially editing in this way, as it could bring disrepute on Ms Kapoor. (Brought here as there are several different policy issues involved). Squinge (talk) 10:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Article nominated for deletion at AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

That's no reason for taking it to AfD. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 08:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

It looks almost certain to be kept now after having been expanded with multiple sources, but I think the behaviour (and user name) of @Kapoork: still needs to be addressed as I originally asked - they are still adding their own unsourced claims (while removing sourced material). Are they allowed a to use a username that suggests they are the subject of the article without verifying who they are, and should they be stopped from adding unsourced material? Squinge (talk) 11:10, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

And I'm getting further attacks for reverting their unsourced changes. Squinge (talk) 11:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

and please see my latest warning/request at User_talk:Kapoork#Kanika_Kapoor Squinge (talk) 11:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

And their latest at my Talk suggests they're not actually Kanika Kapoor herself, so I don't think that username should be allowed for someone editing that article. Squinge (talk) 11:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Nominating for AfD in this situation was ham-fisted. We need to avoid this sort of thing and educate rather than alienate new editors. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Priscilla Chan Zuckerberg

Can an administrator please look at the histories of Priscilla Chan Zuckerberg, Dr. Priscilla Chan, and Priscilla Chan (Zuckerberg) and figure out the page histories. I think there has been some cut-and-paste moves that will require an administrator to merge histories and/or rename. Gnome de plume (talk) 15:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that everything should be fixed now. With the exception of the fact that the article almost certainly does not meet our notability criteria and it seems a tad sexist to use someone's husband's last name as their disambiguator when they have not themselves chosen to adopt it. NW (Talk) 18:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree, it clearly doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's notability criteria. It seems like that page was created only to represent her as Mark Zuckerberg's wife. In my opinion that article is totally redundant.--Chamith (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems that she is not yet personally notable enough for a Misplaced Pages biography, but my personal opinion is that she may well be soon, as a philanthropist perhaps, and it is plausible that people will increasingly search for information about her, given her family's massive wealth and influence. She is a talented, appealing young woman with the resources to make a difference. The skills of an administrator talented with disambiguation, merging several deleted articles, and evaluating emerging celebrity notability would be very useful here. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban of Martin Hogbin

Martin Hogbin has failed to get consensus that Scottish should not be considered a nation at Talk:James_Clerk_Maxwell. He has failed to change policy to force people not to use Scottish at a nationality at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Nationality_of_people_from_the_United_Kingdom. He was struck down when he proposed that, if people disagreed with him, then all references to nationality should be deleted at Talk:James_Clerk_Maxwell#We_must_remove_all_references_to_nationality. His latest section? Talk:James_Clerk_Maxwell#Maybe_it_is_time_for_Arbcom.

This editor is, quite simply, becoming a disruptive, one issue account, and it's time he stops. I propose he is banned from all discussions of the various British nationalities, broadly construed, for one year, as well as any edits to change them. Adam Cuerden 22:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Read through the discussions, and it is quite obvious that the behavior is not helpful. But does it warrant a one year topic ban? Maybe a shorter period to see if he can contribute to the project in other areas? - Cwobeel (talk) 22:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@Cwobeel: If the ban is appropriately construed, I can't see how it would block any useful editing. It would stop him from changing nationalities in articles, and opening discussions seeking to change them or the policy surrounding them.It wouldn't stop him editing anything else, unless he violated his topic ban and was banned from all editing for a time over the issue. The only possible issue is with new articles he creates, but even then, it wouldn't limit him very much. Adam Cuerden 22:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I understood the scope. But isn't a year a bit too much? - Cwobeel (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I have done nothing whatever to warrant a topic ban except to disagree with one group of editors and agree with another in one article. Any admin who topic bans be because they disagree with me would be seriously abusing their position. I am proposing to take the case to Arbcom anyway. If they decide to topic ban me that is fine but to do so prematurely would be most improper. A topic ban cannot be used to push one POV.Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@Martin Hogbin: The reason is was brought here was to get community consensus for a topic ban - not for a single admin to implement one. Not sure it's "premature" at this point - might even be a bit late (read: I agree with a 3-month topic ban), and it's certainly not a case for ArbCom. You agreed to live by WP:CONSENSUS when you started editing - perhaps it's time to drop this battle (for now) and move onto something more useful and less painful? the panda ₯’ 23:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

This is an outrageous attempt to suppress one (well sourced) POV in an article. I am not a lone editor with a crazy idea there are several editors who totally agree with me that the article is currently 'factually incorrect' as proved by several very reliable sources. There is a similar sized group who disagree with me. We are currently discussing the subject in a generally civil fashion to try to reach a consensus. I have now proposed a compromise solution that is fully in accordance with WP core policy, that we state no nationality until there is a consensus on what it should be. I have not edit warred that proposal but continue to argue that in the circumstances it is the right thing to do. What is wrong with that? Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:20, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

At present, regarding my compromise proposal, there would appear to be three editors supporting it and three against. Should we topic ban them all? Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

AFAIK, Martin Hogbin hasn't been edit-warring or vandalizing pages. The timing of this report is troubling, as MH is currently considering the Arbcom route, concerning the situation surrounding WP:UKNAT. Let's be patient & let those discussions run their course. PS: Please note, there are editors who support his proposals. GoodDay (talk) 23:53, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a minority - he's been voted down every time he's brought it up. He's basically engaging in forum shopping, taking it everywhere. Threating Arbcom over a content issue is not laudable behaviour, that's part of the problem - he will not drop the subject when consensus goes against him, he his attempting to use every single process, from changing policy to forum shopping to threatening to take things to Arbcom in order to force consensus to overturn to how he wants it. That's not good. At all. Adam Cuerden 01:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

For those of us new to this conflict, can you provide some representative diffs as examples of the alleged disruptive behavior? Gamaliel (talk) 04:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd echo Gamaliel's request. From what I could see (looking at this for the first time), there was some edit warring recently but the amount of discussion on the talk page (Talk:James Clerk Maxwell, in particular the nationality section) in relation to whether the infobox should list him as (1) nationality - British & citizenship - none, or (2) nationality - Scottish & citizenship - British, or (3) nationality - Scottish & British & citizenship - none, or (4) nationality - none & citizenship - none, is excessive and utterly disproportionate to the reliance placed on such information in the infobox. Can Martin Hogbin (talk · contribs) and FF-UK (talk · contribs) confirm whether they would be willing to take voluntary binding restrictions on this issue in relation to the article, and if so, the specific scope & duration of such restriction they would be prepared to accept? Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that there has been much discussion between myself and FF-UK on the question of whether the infobox nationality should be 'British' or 'Scottish'. This has mainly consisted of the presentation of sources and lines of argument. However, as neither of us has succeeded in persuading the other of anything, I would be happy to agree to cease this discusssion forthwith intil a suitable venue for achieving consensus is agreed.

Regarding my proposal to leave the infobox nationality empty until true consensus is reached, I firmly believe that this is the only option in line with WP:V and WP:NPOV. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@Martin Hogbin:, thank you. Can you please also clarify that this would also extend to ceasing making any edits in relation to nationality/citizenship on the article itself? I also @FF-UK: to ask that he confirm if he is willing to accept a voluntary binding restriction on the same terms.

I did notice your proposal for the article when trudging through the overwhelming discussion on the talk page, but this was not agreed by others. As this is assessed as a GA, I don't think anyone here wants it becoming unstable over this disagreement, and policy does not always work immediately and absolutely in practice as everyone would have gathered by now. So as jarring as the latest version might appear to both of you, it was apparently made in an effort to compromise. Would you be prepared to accept that version until a properly constructed article RfC has concluded with a clear consensus? From both perspectives, the overall "harm" if any is fairly low in this version (bearing in mind the reason I specified above for characterising the relevant talk page discussion as disproportionate in size). Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Any topic ban would be better aimed at those who, as ever, seem to see this issue as an opportunity to go into bat for their most favoured nation on an individual page (usually, funnily enough, their own and rarely anyone else's) rather than taking the broader view, looking with an open mind at how to present sometimes conflicting information and asking the simple question: "What would help provide consistency and clarity in a specific infobox field for readers across all pages?" And the opening claim in this thread is utterly misleading to the point of being deceptive: this debate is not about whether Scotland is a nation or any attempt to deny that. Yes, MH has zeroed in on this issue, but what precise evidence has been presented of actual disruption for the lynch mob to look at? It's this kind of agenda-driven, point-scoring behaviour, combined with the gang mentality, that makes so much WP content unreliable and/or meaningless and trying to edit here so pointless. N-HH talk/edits 12:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I suppose I should also say this to be clear; in asking both Martin Hogbin and FF-UK as to their willingness to accept voluntary binding restrictions on the issue in relation to this article, this is not an indication that both editors are not making any positive contributions towards the article or the project. It is just that both editors have been the main players editing/discussing this issue exhaustively to the point that anyone with fresh perspective does not want to go near it, and the quantity of discussion between them is very disproportionate. There is little they can add usefully now which has not already been said by them. Hopefully this will assist in attracting outside input. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I am happy not to edit the Nationality field to 'British' until there is a clear consensus on what to do next but what I have proposed is a compromise. One side, including me, want the nationality field to be 'British' and the other want it to be 'Scottish'. My proposed compromise is to have nothing at all in the nationality field. (Nationality - Scottish, Citizenship - British is how the article was when I came; there is no disagreement about citizenship). I would not object to removing both fields until the matter is resolved but to leave it as it is is not a compromise at all.

Surely leaving the two fields blank is the correct thing to do as neither has a source and editors cannot agree what to put. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:40, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

There's also a "Citizenship" field set to British. So your "compromise" is to remove "Scottish", but leave "British" in the infobox. "Compromise" does not mean, "give me everything". Adam Cuerden 15:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Exactly! this is not a compromise - it's another means to achieve the same outcome; As I have said to Martin on the essay page, when a particular avenue is closed, he simply tries another one - and always with the single intent of removing "Scottish" in lieu of "British". This "compromise" is just another means to secure Martin's intended outcome. FDCWint (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Just an update - I have left the a message on both Martin Hogbin's talk page to clarify and asked FF-UK on his talk page to clarify. If both agree, we should be able to move forward.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Please note that I said just above, ' leaving the two fields blank'. I have no problem in blanking the Citizenship field if it helps. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist, thank you for your constructive intervention. I am happy to agree to accept a voluntary binding restriction on the article itself, as Martin Hogbin has done, however I note that he has not extended that to talk pages and has continued to edit there. I will not be initiating any new talk activity, but there are two issues which should be recognized.

1: it is not just MH but also an IP editor who reflects and supports MH's opinions. This editor is exclusively editing on the nationality issue, starting (as far as I can tell) on 30th October, so far he/she has sequentially used seven different BT WiFi hot spots, each for a few days at a time with no overlap. These IPs are 109.152.250.125; 86.145.98.85; 109.152.249.9; 86.180.32.141; 109.152.248.204; 86.129.126.155 and 86.180.33.175. In total they account for 154 edits.

2: Both Martin Hogbin and the IP have a habit of mis-stating the points made by others, misquoting sources, mis-using sources, quoting invalid sources (eg a bootleg mirror of Misplaced Pages for Schools and an outdated (by 100 years) version of Encyclopedia Britannica which not only describes JCM as British, but gets his birth date wrong by 5 months!), denying sources, even deleting valid references in the article! (eg this deletion from the IP, a deletion which was subsequently repeated by Dave_souza!). Both Martin Hogbin and the IP have generally displayed a disregard for the truth. I will not allow any further dishonesty to pass without remark. Otherwise I will refrain. FF-UK (talk) 22:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support per WP:BATTLE. Martin Hogbin has a long history of going to war in places where he finds a grey area, such as the fact that Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom was never elevated beyond an essay, even though it exists to help the community understand, as others have noted, the "flexibility" involved. Martin is anything but "flexible", and stubbornly takes one extreme and threatens to fight anyone who attempts to move to the center. I'm not just talking about this topic, this has gone on everywhere Martin Hogbin shows up. So putting aside the offensive nature of his argument (as it insults Scottish people everywhere by denying them their identity), the problem is Martin's penchant for black and white thinking in every discussion, and putting a virtual sword to the throat of anyone who disagrees with him. Viriditas (talk) 02:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Please do not confuse the issue with identity, I am referring only to the nationality field of the infobox, which I suggest we leave blank until we have a true consensus. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Martin your position is well known. On your talk page you said, "The essay that you point me to is nothing but the opinion of a few editors, with all dissenting opinion ignored. There is no nationality of 'Scottish' and certainly no authoritative sources saying that Maxwell's nationality was Scottish." The community disagrees with you on those points. We will never have a "true consensus" (does there exist a Martin Hogbin argument that isn't fallacious?) and the existence of the essay is evidence for this lack of consensus, and this has been pointed out to you many times. Your behavior is disruptive, and insisting that we all drop what we are doing and discuss this all over again to reach the same outcome as before is tantamount to lunacy. Adam is correct in trying to put a stop to this. Viriditas (talk) 20:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support per above. Incapability to follow consensus and few other issues including the forum shopping. Noteswork (talk) 03:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose He is simply trying to make the articles accurate Flagators (talk) 04:31, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Martin is simply trying to keep articles accurate and prevent them from being used by pressure groups to promote their political causes. 86.180.33.175 (talk) 06:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Martin certainly likes to edit controversial pages. He does this with care and thoroughness. Researches the sources, looks for consensus, follows wikipedia policy. We need more editors like him on wikipedia. Yes he looks for support when engaged in some controversy. Who doesn't? Richard Gill (talk) 07:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC) (Incidentally the problem in question is simply that the word "Nationality" has two quite distinct meanings, and both sides need to be more flexible, and admit the existence of an alternative meaning of the word. I see an equal rigidity of thought on both sides. The question needs to be discussed at a higher level eg through a RfC) Richard Gill (talk) 09:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
  • It was. He proposed a policy change. It was voted down. There's looking for support, and forum shopping. Threatening arbcom because a vote goes against you goes beyond both of those. He's not threatening arbcom over behavioural issues, he's threatening it because people disagree with him. Adam Cuerden 09:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I lost a vote on what I admit was a poorly worded and ill attended RfC on whether nationality should always refer to the legal jursdiction under which the subject falls. I think my poor wording was not understood by some respondents.

On the Maxwell article I have since proposed an obviously neutral compromise that, until there is a clear consensus, we should put nothing in the 'nationality' field of the infobox. That is what is given as the reason for my proposed topic ban at the top of this section.

I am not 'threatening' Arbcom I am going to put the case to them, because I think it is of vital importance to the integrity of WP. They will decide whether to take it or not.Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Martin is not the only editor arguing his side, there are others and therefore he cannot be considered an SPA, or a lone wikipedian fighting a loosing war. Oppose! KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 12:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I've been watching the relevant discussions for some time and have deliberately stayed away because it's a minefield and a time-drain. But I find it troubling that we're now looking at topic bans. I don't entirely agree with MH's point of view, but I have sympathy with it. However difficult it may be to debate with him, I see editors on the other side who are equally intransigent. I see no behavioural grounds for a topic ban. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is very easy to lose sight of the facts as they become lost in the huge amount of text generated by MH, myself, and others. Firstly, everyone should be aware that neither MH nor myself have added any new material to the article. The disagreement is solely about MH's insistence that material should be removed, or changed (delete Scottish, add British). My point is that the sources we have clearly identify him as Scottish, the infobox (added by Canadian editor Je at uwo in 2006) originally stated that he was Scottish, and has remained so for most of the time since. My editing of this page is limited to reverting errors, I observe the guidance provided at Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. I do this because I have a very strong interest in the subject, James Clerk Maxwell. I am actually a Trustee on the executive of the James Clerk Maxwell Foundation which owns and preserves his birthplace in Edinburgh as a museum. (However, my editing should not be taken as an official position of the Foundation.) Secondly, both MH and others who wish to change the infobox have, on many occasions, tried to suggest that the reasons for Maxwell's nationality being shown as Scottish lie with some sort of nationalist conspiracy. Analysis of Je at uwo's contributions to WP show an editor with a deep interest in science, and no obvious interest in Scotland, so it certainly seems unlikely that he had any political motivation to push a Scottish Nationalist viewpoint. I have declared myself to be proudly English, but living in Scotland. I am very pro-union and was an active campaign worker for the "Better Together" campaign opposing independence during the recent referendum. I have no interest whatsoever in promoting the nationalist cause. However, MH clearly has an inability to understand any motivation other than nationalism could lead one to support the maintenance of accurate Scottish history and respect for its culture. It is this cultural blindness that appears to lie at the heart of his campaign. FF-UK (talk) 16:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, again AFAIK, Martin Hogbin hasn't been edit-warring over or vandalizing any UK bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 16:56, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Noone ever said he was. The problem is that he's forumshopping, and will not accept consensus that doesn't go the way he wants. Particularly with a minefield topic such as nationalities in the UK (historically, somewhat oppressed), it's really stirring up hornets' nests to be threatening Arbcom - not over a behavioural issue, but in order to attempt force Scottish nationality to be listed as British - which is, of course, not a valid use of Arbcom, and to be suggesting it shows a complete lack of perspective on the issue. Adam Cuerden 17:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Arbcom should be given the opportunity to accept or reject Hogbin's request. BTW, Martin Hogbin is not threatening Arbcom. GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
      • Martin is most certainly threatening to go to Arbcom - I realise from your talk page message that you haven't seen that idiomatic construct before, so let's let this pass. Let's review. He started a thread on the talkpage, was outvoted. He went to Village Pump to change policy, was outvoted. He proposed a "compromise" that was no such thing - a previous compromise was "Citizenship: British; Nationality: Scottish"; he wants to remove the "Scottish" part, and only the "Scottish" part and is acting as if this is a compromise. He is now - without justification, threatening Arbcom on the heads of anyone who disagrees with him. (I trust I can use that idiom now?) Arbcom do not take content issues, but Martin has made it very clear in the threads linked that he will not accept any consensus that doesn't expunge Scottishness from the infobox; that's the problem: He will not accept consensus, and will not stop. He's forumshopping. He's presenting the same proposal in slightly different ways every few days, and he's attacking everyone that disagrees with him. In short, he's being massively disruptive. Adam Cuerden 17:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Adam, please read what I wrote above. I am perfectly willing to blank both fields. Citizenship and nationality if it helps.

I am fully entitled to take a case to Arbcom. They will decide whether they wish to take it on and what the outcome will be. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:36, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

You are also fully entitled to take the case to the police. But you would be wasting their time, as sorting out content issues on Misplaced Pages is not what they're for, and threatening to do so shows a gross lack of judgement on your part. Adam Cuerden 20:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't share your concerns, Adam. We'll have to agree to disagree, about whether MH should be t-banned or not. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 24 December 2014 (UTC) :)

• Support - Identity within the UK is a volatile subject; and one which is subject to clear divisions of opinion - for some (such as myself), the UK is a united kingdom of equal constituent nations, and in that view, people are primarily English, Welsh, Scottish.. and also part of the larger entity, and therefore British. For others, British is the sole identity, and the constituent parts either do not exist at all, or are subservient to this enough to be not only not worthy of comment, but "incorrect". Naturally, this is the view supported by the UK government, which represents the British state and establishment, and Martin has therefore found UK government documents to support his position. I believe that adopting a "British only" position on nationality does not recognise the ways in which people living in the UK actually interpret their identity, but instead seeks to impose a single political POV, as legally mandated by a government as "correct" with other views to be removed. This does not feel like a reasonable position for Misplaced Pages to take. FDCWint (talk) 19:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

FDCWint, you explain why your point of view differs from Martin Hogbin's, not why he should be banned. You are welcome to your own point of view, but not welcome to attempt to ban editors of Misplaced Pages with a different point of view. Richard Gill (talk) 15:10, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You are quite correct, and I did not extrapolate to my point cleanly - my fear was that Martin's desire to continue trying to pursue this topic by any means open to him would result in the eventual adoption of his position whether consensus was there or not, which I felt was bad for WP. I realise that the discussion has moved on, and this is largely irrelevant now, but wished to clarify my position; I agree completely with your statement, and would absolutely not wish to see an editor banned from a topic simply for holding an opposing POV to me. FDCWint (talk) 19:43, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose' There isn't really a strong case here for a topic ban. I could drop some long elegant response here but that really covers it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as follows. Some high-profile editors polarize and divide the community. Attempting to deal with them at WP:ANI has shown that attempting to deal with them at community noticeboards is not productive; it merely further polarizes and divides the community. Such editors should either be ignored or left to the ArbCom. Other lower-profile editors polarize and divide that segment of the community that pays attention to them. User:Martin Hogbin is such an editor. It appears that he polarizes and divides British editors or at least some British editors. WP:ANI should not try to deal with him unless he is editing not only against the MOS but against consensus established for an article by the RFC process, or unless he is violating WP:3RR. As it is, leave him alone, or publish an RFC on an article. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:56, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. Perhaps but it is the community's responsibility to attempt to deal with our own issues when we can. This has been the way for some time. I agree with the thought for the most part but there does come a point when your can no longer ignore a problem. We cannot leave editor issues to Arb Com all the time. If this attempt to discourage bad behavior fails and after time it has been demonstrated that the editor is so contentious that the community is so polarized that a consensus cannot be formed....then we would have little choice but to use Arb Com. I just don't like shutting down an ANI discussion because the opinion is that it just won't work. At least let it try to demonstrate that you are correct (which you probably are).--Mark Miller (talk) 21:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – infoboxes are a blunt instrument, attempting to fit what can be complex situations into over-simplified boxes. The dispute is over such a case: the prime meaning of Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a country. In English, the same word is used in the sense of an ethnic group. Maxwell was a British subject in the legal definition of the time. While we don't know his own opinion, other sources identify him with Scottish national identity. Given the complexities, the current infoboxes are misleading and it's reasonable for them be left blank until the community agrees on improvements to the infoboxes. The proposed topic ban would stop such progress towards clarity, and give support to those unable or unwilling to provide verification of contentious article content. . dave souza, talk 11:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Viriditas and this diff, which I encourage others to examine. This matter is way too important to Martin. His involvement in this area has been neither clueful nor helpful. Fight your battles elsewhere, this is an encyclopedia. --John (talk) 17:39, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Concur the removal of talk page comments was inappropriate, but need more evidence to support a ban. NE Ent 19:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Check the diff again. He did not remove any "talk page comments", he deleted a long standing, community consensus driven section from the essay, which is in reality, a supplementary guideline. Viriditas (talk) 21:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Too much talk, not enough diffs presented here. NE Ent 19:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed and agreed voluntary binding restriction

I'd proposed a voluntary binding editing restriction for the sole purposes of deescalating the dispute, allowing fresh input, and so that the article talk page is not overwhelmed further about this infobox dispute. Both Martin Hogbin (talk · contribs) and FF-UK (talk · contribs) accepted a voluntary binding restriction whereby they shall:

• Not edit in relation to "nationality" or "citizenship" in the article James Clerk Maxwell (in particular, the infobox contained in the article); and
• Not discuss "nationality" or "citizenship" further in connection with the same article anywhere on Talk:James Clerk Maxwell.

The restriction should be:

• broadly construed - so that it applies to concepts such as "national identity" in connection with the article;
• enforcible - which is why we call it binding; and
• for an indefinite duration. A more suitable venue or method of discussion (such as article RfC to be commenced on another page) is to be agreed towards coming to a clear consensus on the issue, and at the conclusion of the discussion, the restriction will be lifted again (but we don't know how long that will be). Even though parties (and others) may be frustrated from the number of times this has gone on, this will be a final effort to resolve this issue and should provide sufficient clarity for those not involved to come to a view on conduct issues which may arise thereafter.

In order for this restriction to be binding, the community will need to formally endorse the restriction so there will be no hesitation by uninvolved administrators in enforcing this if there are breaches. Once we have that, it can be logged, both users notified, and this ANI can be closed for now. Can we please have input from the community, especially uninvolved users? Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse as proposer. This covers the parts both users accepted MH: "I would be happy to agree to cease this discusssion forthwith intil a suitable venue for achieving consensus is agreed." MH: "I am happy not to edit the Nationality field to 'British' until there is a clear consensus on what to do next...." FF: "I am happy to agree to accept a voluntary binding restriction on the article itself, as Martin Hogbin has done...I will not be initiating any new talk activity...." Of course, it should be understood that any other users (be it throw away IP addresses or established editors) who disrupt the talk page or the article over this infobox dispute are gambling with their site-wide editing privilleges. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:08, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

  I'd found that this month alone, there were about 17 reverts in relation to two words in the article's infobox - starting with an edit which I could at best label as a "bold edit" by Martin Hogbin then reverted by an IP address user. This paved the way for the article becoming unstable with edit-warring: dave souza , FF , Martin Hogbin , Hertz , IP , FF-UK , CFindlay12 , IP , Martin Hogbin , IP , IP , FF-UK , Martin Hogbin , FF-UK , Martin Hogbin followed by John . Maybe it was luck that te GA assessment was not delisted after such instability. As for the talk page, the issue is not nastiness; the issue is (primarily) two editors debating 2 words in an article's infobox, and despite more than 27,000 words of discussion about it, disagreement between the editors remain. Unsurprisingly, no uninvolved editors want to go near the discussion which is so overwhelmingly long in size, and disproportionate to the content being challenged in the article. Both editors have said more than enough to make their views clear, and it's better left now to an article RfC where others can finally comment if they wish (without the risk of further exhaustion). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Calibre(unit) / Articles by Shevonsilva

DRN suggested we come here to resolve this dispute, please see the case filed there for information on the issue Here. Would just like the discussion to be closed before a breadth of new articles is created by the same user. We may need to pursue WP:Bundle, depending on the outcome of the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Calibre(unit), and creating all these new articles will only complicate the matter, requests to the editor to discontinue creation of these types of articles have gone ignored. Involved editors include Shevonsilva, Johnuniq, and PamD. War wizard90 (talk) 22:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• To get an idea of the issue, see here (permalink). The close at DRN suggested WP:BUNDLE, that is, nominate all the pages for deletion in a single request. I would like a lower-tension discussion of the issues first where the inclusionist/deletionist model need not be considered. It is disappointing that another twenty articles have been created in the last 24 hours, and a discussion here might strongly suggest that further articles should not be created until the fate of the existing articles is decided. The difficulty is that the source is not sufficiently reliable to be relied on for obscure information which is not verifiable in other sources. Johnuniq (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment (after e/c): Shevonsilva (talk · contribs) is creating a large number of stubs for units of measurement, sourced to one single book in which some other editors have little faith. These include many obscure and obsolete measures, some not included in the Oxford English Dictionary. The structure of each article is that the unit is "defined" in terms of other units, unlinked, some of which are themselves of complicated and variable definition, and then a "Conversions" section which gives conversions to other imperial and metric units to a smetimes implausible number of decimal places. As a recent example, see Sarpler (before later edits by other editors). The definition is "26/9 Wey", converted to "330.21524536 kg", while Wey (unit) shows a complex situation. The same editor has added content to existing articles in an unhelpful way - see addition to "Hogshead" (presumably "Madeira" was intended?).

S/he does not comply with normal talk page convention of signing at end of comment, despite requests - is this a WP:CIR issue if they cannot understand the convention and its usefulness? (See confusing comments added at an AfD).

This mass of dic-def stubs is not improving the encyclopedia, and the editor is unwilling to pause and discuss them. PamD 23:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I would also note that WP is not supposed to be an adventitious collection of trivia. Looking at these stubs, it doesn't strike me that they meet the notability criteria for inclusion. WP does not need to include reams of information sourced to a single text; at a minimum, even granting that these units are notable for our purposes, we'd want to cite several independent sources. Even if the one source is not dubious, it's not best practice to cite information from it that appears nowhere else. Moreover, one book's assertions about tens of (ambiguous) archaic units and their (supposed) values does not make material for tens of encyclopedia articles.

However, the book itself seems to be a reputable academic publication, so perhaps the information would be more at home in another article, such as this one. Archon 2488 (talk) 02:48, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The author is talented ("Manager of Recycling"), but does not appear to have credentials that would make the book sufficiently reliable to introduce novel facts about units. Shevonsilva has hinted that there is more in the book, but so far it appears that each article is based solely on an entry in a table that might say, for example, that 1 wrap is 240 feet—there is no indication of where or when the unit was used, and no underlying source. I guess we will just have to make a group AfD, but this ANI discussion needs to persuade Shevonsilva to stop creating stubs until a consensus is established. Johnuniq (talk) 03:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Point taken – I was just assuming that Springer wouldn't publish total crackpottery (I don't think it would), but of course that doesn't imply that the book is correct. Taking a closer look at it, there are a few odd assertions, such as the cubic imperial units being the "chief" measures of volume in the UK, together with a table that has cubic rods and register tons, the latter of which I'd never even heard of, and there are plenty of grammatical and typographical errors. Seems Springer needs to do a better job of copy-editing and fact-checking their publications. Archon 2488 (talk) 04:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I have just encountered this editor's contributions. At least some are simply junk: quires is an ungrammatical duplicate of quire. Shevon Silva's native language does not appear to be English, but I wonder about this Cardarelli, who first edited some book with MJ Shields, then had a later version of the same book translated by MJ Shields. Entries like Dash (unit) ‎(Total text: "Dash was a US unit of capacity used in food recipes.") do not fill me with confidence that the author has a clue what he is talking about. A dash of rum improves lots of things, but this does not make it a unit in any coherent sense. And as for Springer (assuming this is the right one!) "In 2014, it was revealed that Springer had published 16 fake papers in its journals that had been computer-generated using SCIgen. Springer subsequently removed all the papers from these journals. IEEE had also done the same thing by removing more than 100 fake papers from its conference proceedings." Amazon offers this "encyclopedia" for 153 pounds. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
• Propose block of Shevonsilva (talk · contribs) until the user agrees to stop making edits based on the problematic source before a consensus is formed. In the last few hours, the user has created eleven more junk articles (Bale (unit) + Breakfast cup + Bundle (unit) + Coffee measure + Coffee spoon (unit) + Dash (unit) + Quires + Salt spoon (unit) + Teacupful + Water glassful + Wine glassful). Johnuniq (talk) 09:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

  I have struck my block proposal as it is not needed now that Black Kite has warned Shevonsilva to stop creating articles until a consensus forms concerning the pages created so far. I intend to examine the pages in a day or two and will nominate those I think are unhelpful for deletion in a single WP:AFD. That is apparently the best way to get a discussion on what should occur. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I have investigated several of these cases that have come to AFD and find that they all seem grounded in some genuine usage of the unit in question. For example, the dash is criticised above but that unit already appears in our existing coverage of cooking weights and measures - see pinch (cooking), for example. The work in question has a reputable publisher and, while that doesn't make it perfect, it seems more authoritative than the nay-sayers who don't seem to research the topics thoroughly themselves or consider alternatives to deletion per WP:BEFORE and WP:BITE. This just seems to be a matter of ordinary content creation and our editing policy is quite explicit - that we should encourage half-baked contributions so that something might be made of them. Andrew D. (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Are you opposing the block? The indentation of your comment does not make this totally clear. In any case, the issue is not really that someone has made one or two poorly worded articles on notable topics which might reasonably be improved with effort from others; it's that someone who is perhaps simply not competent is creating a large number of poor-quality stubs of questionable notability, based on one reference. Far from being a nay-sayer, I was initially perhaps too kind to the book – on closer inspection it seems to have serious problems, as Johnuniq and Imaginatiorium have pointed out. It's also possible that the editor in question is simply not here with the goal of improving WP, because for some reason they seem hell-bent on making as many articles as possible based on the content of one book, to the point of seeming like a SPA.

But as I said above, even if all these facts check out, it doesn't follow that it's appropriate for each little factoid to have its own stub article. There's no reason why such information couldn't be amalgamated into a single article, which would likely be more useful and accessible to readers. Archon 2488 (talk) 19:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, I oppose a block of this editor as this would be quite contrary to our principles of WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:BOLD and WP:IMPERFECT. The topics in question might well benefit from further development and editing but this is normal for new work. The devil is in the details in such cases. For example, Archon 2488 says above that he has never heard of register tons and seems to condemn the Encyclopaedia of Scientific Units, Weights and Measures because of this. This seems quite mistaken because register tons are quite well-documented here and elsewhere and he may read more about the concept at pages such as gross register tonnage and ton#Units of volume. This example further demonstrates that source in question is reasonably respectable and is more authoritative than its critics. Andrew D. (talk) 21:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: what I was criticising was the assertion that units like "register tons" (and cubic rods, etc) were normal units of capacity in the UK. I've lived in the UK my whole life and I've never heard of a "register ton". I'm sure the unit exists (or existed), but it's obscure, at least nowadays. I would never claim to be an expert on any system of units except perhaps SI, and I am not claiming to be more authoritative than the author of this book.

The book has a number of odd statements like that, as well as being written in less-than-perfect English. But regardless, my original point still stands: I don't see why lots of arcane obsolete units each need their own article, when each of these articles consists of a dictionary-like entry combined with a dubious conversion into metric units. It's poor-quality material which doesn't obviously add anything to the encyclopedia. Far better to find out which of those units can be reliably traced to reliable, primary historical sources, and put their definitions in an article on old measurement units, rather than scattering them all over the place in a plethora of stubs that nobody is going to read. Archon 2488 (talk) 21:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• I have lived most of my life in the UK too and instantly recognise the register ton as a unit in shipping. It's quite familar and not at all obscure in my opinion but I was also surprised that editors had difficulty recognising the usage of calibre too. The cubic rod is more antiquated but it is easy to find 19th century sources which show that it was commonly used in quantity surveying contexts, e.g. The Arithmetician's Guide; House of Lords Session Paper. As editors seem to have trouble with these measures then this seems all the more reason that Misplaced Pages should cover them. Blocking the editor who has gone to the trouble of helping to fill in these gaps seems quite wrong. Andrew D. (talk) 23:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment If we are going to import Cardarelli's labours into Misplaced Pages en masse (should we really be comfortable with the wholesale appropriation of such an exceptional work?), we should at least get his name right. Every reference I've checked is of the same form: "Cardarelli, François Cradarelli (2003). Encyclopaedia of Scientific Units, Weights and Measures. London: Springer. p. nn. ISBN 978-1-4471-1122-1." (my emphasis). @Shevonsilva: please could you correct those references? NebY (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@NebY: The word, Cardarelli, is now correctly applied in the articles. Shevonsilva (talk) 01:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Reply from Shevon Silva

@Johnuniq: @PamD: @War wizard90: I have repeatedly explained to refer the full source to Johnuniq. He did refer only a sample chapter of the book and based on that he asked me for references where all the references and bibligrophy list was available in the end of the book, and I have provided him on-line references too to provide the reliability of the article. He ignored any of my suggestions and continue to challenge the source without proper grounds as I could provide many other sources too.

• Without trying (being unable to do so only by accessing sample chapters) to access reference list and bibliography list provided in the end of the book, Johnuniq is incorrectly stating the fact that secondary sources are not available. (I have already provided some on-line sources too traditionally)

• Again little faith issue is a personnel idea of User PamD. He has to access secondary sources provided by the book. He believed every unit must be included in the Oxford English Dictionary which is not the case for many units as Oxford English Dictionary is a dictionary for English words and it does not cover all the English words and foreign words.In the article Sarpler, it is clearly mentioned sarpler was a UK weight for wool, and in the article way, it is clearly mentioned the unit was also used as weight for wool and it was exactly equals to 252 pounds which can be exactly converted to "330.21524536 kg".With regarding article Hogshead, I have corrected the error in the word Madeira. This addition is helpful as it is defined another additional usage of hogshead.

I will comply with the talk page conventions in future.

I have already discussed these dic-def issues in my talk page and in some relevant talk pages in relevant articles. I explained I have started the articles and additionally I have given unit conversions and some additional informations too. In future, other authors can improve the newly created pages by including further sources. This will be a contribution for Misplaced Pages.

Johnuniq must buy the book and go through the whole book including the reference list and the bibliography list.

Pam must understand Oxford English Dictionary is not the only source available for words.

War wizard90 must understand to suggest a way to increase the articles rather than deleting new articles without understanding the future contribution that can be provided.Shevon Silva 01:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Four days ago I asked here what the book says about two example units, such as how and when the units were used, and what references for the units were given. There was no response, but elsewhere you provided two links (nuclearglossary.com for "wrap" and ceramicsandminerals.com for "Rod (Br volume)"). However, they are just websites about something else, which also list every claim about units that their authors could find—they are not sufficiently reliable to verify novel information. When modern sources aggregate facts, there is a danger that they simply echo each other. What is needed is a reference to a scholarly source with footnotes, or at least a reference to pre-1920s writing that mentions the units (how would anyone now know how many feet there are in a wrap unless a contemporary account is available?). What is needed is a commitment to stop creating new articles until the issue has been thoroughly discussed. Johnuniq (talk) 02:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Now I provided a response. And, you mentioned those units were not mentioned elsewhere. I provided some on-line references to prove the fact that these units were mentioned other places too. For reliable references, please visit bibliography list in the book. I never mentioned these units were used in pre-1920s. I mentioned these units were/have been used. For further references, please pursue the bibliography list of the book. Shevonsilva (talk) 03:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I cannot understand your reply. My comment (just above, starting "Four days ago") contains the two "on-line references" so I do not know why you mentioned them, and I explained why the websites are not reliable sources. From your replies I infer that you have not seen anything about rod or wrap apart from the conversion factors—there is no indication of when or where those meanings applied, nor the context. There are no known references verifying the information apart from a one-line entry in a table providing a conversion factor. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: I was trying to provide the fact that these units are mentioned in other places as you told me that these units are not mentioned in anywhere else. You are doubting a reliable source. For your knowledge, I will provide some other articles where "François Cardarelli. Encyclopedia of Scientific Units, Weights and Measures" is used as a reference.

• Obsolete_Polish_units_of_measurement

• German_obsolete_units_of_measurement

• Pound_(mass)

• Unit_of_length — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shevonsilva (talk • contribs) 16:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Before criticizing any book, the book must be thoroughly investigated and all the references in the bibliography list must be thoroughly pursued. Shevonsilva (talk) 16:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It cannot be exactly converted to any value in kilograms, because to do so would be anachronistic. The avoirdupois pound today is precisely defined by the kilogram because of an agreement which dates from the 1950s (and going back slightly further, the imperial and US customary units had been variously defined in terms of metric units since the 19th century). But you cannot retroactively apply this to a unit which existed before the metric system did; at most, you can give an approximate equivalent. The measurement technologies that existed centuries ago could not have defined a standard to that level of precision, so it is misleading and meaningless to convert it to 11 significant figures.

It's not anyone's responsibility to buy the book in order to check your sources.

I don't think PamD was arguing that the OED is the ultimate authority on units, but rather that it would be an example of what notability might mean. Generally, for something to be the subject of an article rather than information included in another article, it must be notable in its own right, which includes being well-documented in several independent reputable sources.

It's not the main goal of WP to increase the number of articles for the sake of doing so; the objective is to provide a large quantity of high-quality relevant information, and making a new stub for every obscure fact under the sun will not accomplish that. You cannot create lots of stubs and expect that other people will eventually turn them into something useful. Archon 2488 (talk) 02:48, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@Archon 2488:

I never mentioned the conversion was applied before 1950s. These units were still used until very recently according the source provided (i.e. after 1950s). In that case, it is permitted to translate to an exact value as these units were used until recently and they were defined exactly based on pounds or yards.

Before arguing about the validity of a book, user must thoroughly check the sources provided in the book.

With regarding notability, again please refer the bibliography list provided by the book.

one goal of WP is to provide extensive information. I am initiating that.

Shevonsilva (talk) 03:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Note I have warned Shevensilva to stop creating these articles until a consensus forms on what to do with them. I hope blocking will not be necessary. Black Kite (talk) 12:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite: What to do with them is to improve the article if it is necessary. I am too trying to provide more extensive information on the article and provide references to other articles too.Shevonsilva (talk) 03:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Conflict of interest account repeatedly inserting promotional material

Note: I am not involved in this dispute, but have observed it in passing.

A new editor has recently appeared CarlThompson (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) whose sole editing contribution is to repeatedly add material promoting his company's product at PCSO-524.

Original insertion.

Removed as advertising.

Restored by CarlThompson. Note the edit summary clearly betrays the conflict of interest as he admits that the 'facts' are approved by his company's scientific panel.

Removed again as 'snake oil ad'.

CarlThompson asks on remover's talk page why he keeps removing his promotional material.

CarlThompson is directed to the Misplaced Pages policy on Conflict of interest.

CarlThompson ignores the policy and restores the promotional material.

CarlThompson is directed once again to the policy on Conflict of interest, this time on his own talk page.

CarlThompson once again restores the material ignoring Conflict of interest policy.

A new editor removes the material though does not specify why in the edit summary.

Restored by CarlThompson again.

Removed by a third contributor as promotional.

This third editor leaves yet another note on CarlThompson's talk page.

This account is very clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but exists solely to add promotional material for his company's product in contravention of Misplaced Pages's Conflict of interest policy (single purpose account). It is also clear that if he works for the company who makes the product and the material being added is 'approved' by that company than he is most likely being paid to add the disputed material. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I note that the account has not been active since I (the "third editor" mentioned above) reverted him and left a detailed warning on his talk page. I suggest waiting to see how CarlThompson responds before taking administrative action. He has a choice to comply with my suggestions (to use talk pages, stop edit warring, and publicly disclose his COI), or not. No action is required if he makes the right choices. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:56, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I did not make my intentions clear (probably due to Christmas guests turning up). I was not expecting any sanctions against this account. What I was going to suggest was an appropriately worded authoritative warning on this account's talk page from an administrator which would underline the policy on the point. This is because this user has ignored two warnings on the conflict of interest, and one warning on paid editing. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 18:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

For information only: A further warning has been left at yet another discussion started by CarlThompson here. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 19:30, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

"HowNutsAreTheDutch". Confirmed socks.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See blokmessage on nl.wp for details. It seems the puppeteer (singular) is active here resulting in Hans Ormel and HowNutsAreTheDutch (see comments on tp). The account also adds references to the work of Ormel and his coworkers crosswiki. This seems to be a clear-cut case of WP:NOTHERE to me. Can someone take appropriate action?

• 384400km (talk · contribs)
• JadeAnise (talk · contribs)
• Eudaimonic2100 (talk · contribs)
• Psychopomp2000 (talk · contribs)
• LotjeCat (talk · contribs)

Kleuske (talk) 16:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC) P.S. These may not be the only socks active. Kleuske (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

@Kleuske: If you open a case at WP:SPI, a checkuser can confirm if these are socks, and can also find other related accounts if these are related. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Kleuske (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

India Against Corruption (Assam) image

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello Network Admins

Please immediately remove FAKE Image of Shri Arvind Kejriwal. This FAKE image is upload by BJP person to grossly desparage Shri Arbind who will be next CM of Delhi State. India Against Corruption ie. LIBEL, DEFAMATION, INVASION of the PRIVACY of Arvind ji AAP Dec 2014 (talk) 16:20, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

From an account that has just been created and this is its sole edit??!!?? DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Shri Ashish ji (Media incharge) the Aam Aadmi Party is funnily block few hour now when he complian about Arvindji foto on India Against Corruption page, so my new account is open by myself. I am of AAP - Delhi State PAC. AAP Dec 2014 (talk) 16:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Just so you know it again, Arvind ji is very much fully in Delhi between 3 and 7 July 2011. for Ganga action program at Gandhi Foundation. So foto is FAKE one.

From here you see Arvindji is in Delhi till 7 July 2011 and no where near the Assaam. https://gharbachao.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/resolutions-and-future-programmes-as-adopted-on-july-3-4-wardha-maharashtra/ AAP Dec 2014 (talk) 16:48, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Just another IAC sock, as with the one that was blocked by a checkuser earlier today. See WP:LTA/IAC. Block and ignore. - Sitush (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

This is Aam Admi Party for Shri Arvind Kejriwal but foto is no doubt on IAC page. you see http://osdir.com/ml/health-discussion-help/2011-07/msg01325.html Arvind ji is in Delhi not in Assaam AAP Dec 2014 (talk) 16:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Gollymemolly (talk · contribs) was the account that was checkuser blocked earlier today and you claim to be representing them, which would be at least a case of WP:MEAT and role-accounting. This is exactly what the India Against Corruption farm has been doing for two years or so, complete with nutty charges of falsified documents etc. I note that the person who challenged on the image uploader's talk page at Commons was also blocked as an IAC sock. Give up. - Sitush (talk) 17:06, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Account now blocked. - Sitush (talk) 17:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban on Jews and Judaism needed for AliAkar

• AliAkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• User:AliAkar/Jewish Supremacism (My Awakening to the Jewish Question) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• See also David Duke and User_talk:Mike_Rosoft#Jewish_Supremacism_.28My_Awakening_to_the_Jewish_Question.29

AliAkar has tried more than once to create a draft for white supremacist conspiracy theorist David Duke's book "Jewish Supremacism." The first attempt to move it to article space was was deleted by User:Mike Rosoft under WP:G11. That draft presented the work as "meticulously research" sic. When we pointed out to AliAkar that Duke should be trusted about as far as things can be thrown at him, AliAkar accused both Mike and me of having "self interest with this book" and "a personal problem with this book and the idea of the author." When I finally pointed out that Duke is, according to our article on him, known as a "white nationalist, conspiracy theorist," and "advocate of antisemitic conspiracy theories," AliAkar replied that he was simply trying to introduce the book, not Duke's ideas.

Mike deleted the draft (because there is no way it was ever going to become an article in that state), and AliAkar recreated it pretty much the same, calling the book "influential," downplaying the fact that Duke is a notorious conspiracy theorist and white supremacist (also downplaying the hoax nature of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for this draft), and claiming "Jewish Supremacism must be authentic." It also cites David Duke 25 times, and contains

AliAkar has created drafts for other articles in the past that, despite requiring a lot of cleanup, are still here. However, it's clear that AliAkar has a blinding antisemitic bias and should not be allowed to edit articles relating to Jews or Judaism. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose for now We need to tread carefully here. We do not sanction editors for their politics, religion, sex or sexual preferences etc even if/when their opinions are odious. Topic bans are the tactical nukes of WP sanctions and should only be employed when there is evidence of persistent, unrepentant disruptive editing in a given subject area, and after counseling and or the application of lesser correctives (i.e. temporary blocks) have been attempted without success. I am seeing very little of that here. Talk page discussion appears to have been limited to the issue of the book. If any other problematic edits were raised on the talk page, I missed it (always a possibility). I see no formal warnings. And I see no indication of any blocks. Yes,there are some rare and commonsense exceptions where you break out the heavy artillery right off. But this doesn't look like an unambiguous case of NOTHERE. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

AliAkar has made it clear that they intend to continue to introduce material promoting David Duke's "Jewish Supremacism" as factual, instead of the WP:FRINGE material it is. Blocks or site bans would be necessary for NOTHERE, but this is more of a WP:CIR issue: there is no reason whatsoever to believe that AliAkar is capable of engaging in subjects relating to Jews and Judaism neutrally (quite the opposite, in fact), but he can contribute positively in other areas.

At the very least, can we get a few more voices to explain to him (so he doesn't just think it's me and Mike) that the content of the page is unacceptably biased toward the book's claims? Ian.thomson (talk) 21:03, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that his article is not well written, and it is clearly biased with the intent to promote David Duke's nonsense. His books are not in any sense "influential", except perhaps among neo-Nazis. To read this article one would not get the impression that Duke is not an impartial authority on Judaism or Jewish culture but rather an extremist fringe voice and a crackpot (which, indeed, he is). Presenting fringe views as if they were mainstream (or, perhaps, even notable) is clearly a violation of WP:NPOV. For example, we do not write about Fred Phelps as if he were an authority on LGBT rights. Archon 2488 (talk) 21:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree, to which end I have posted a level 2 warning on their talk page. When dealing with a problem editor, we don't start with bans. We try to work with them and then issue warnings if the problem persists. The next step would probably be a block of some kind. If future editing suggests we are dealing with an anti-Semite on a mission and who just can't be reasoned with then a topic ban becomes a legitimate option. Right now this sounds like an attempt to topic ban someone because we (quite understandably) find their views offensive. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Based on what I have seen from a quick glance, I think this editor's future contributions should be the subject of some scrutiny. I would suggest we keep an eye on what they are doing for a while so we can address any potential problems quickly. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support for topic ban and even indefinite block per WP:COMPETENCE, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLE, and WP:SOAPBOX. I find Ad Orientem's oppose up above to be so far off the mark, that I can only assume he responded without actually looking at the problem . AliAkar is not here to build an encyclopedia. Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose at the moment as well. I don't see any particular evidence on uncivil conduct or anything of that sort. I don't even understand the warning, did User:AliAkar even edit Jewish Supremacism or David Duke? Now the editor's versions of the article aren't remotely neutral and won't likely be posted as is but that's an issue for deletion of those drafts if you want. Move them to Draft space and have it reviewed before being created. It's not like it's impossible to create a neutral article on that topic. Mahdi Zein-eddin is pretty standard for a new user in my view. It's problematic and needs to be reviewed but nothing that's a red flag to me. I see that his uploads at Commons were all deleted but that again isn't something particularly unusual for a new user. Is there something I'm missing? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
• It also cites David Duke 25 times, and contains Contains what, Ian.thomson? Looks like you hit "delete" one too many times :-) Nyttend (talk) 05:00, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. We don't ban editors simply for holding political or religious views that we disagree with. The article in question looks like a good-faith effort at a well-sourced article describing Duke's book. While the article has some problems (mostly with the grammar, but also with its POV), this is nothing which can't be addressed via collaborative editing involving editors with different viewpoints. In the event that the user actually edit-wars to preserve their biases, or resumes copyright violations, then I'd be happy to consider a block or a topic-ban. —Psychonaut (talk) 10:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Nobody has proposed banning the editor for holding certain views. What was proposed was banning the editor for crossing the threshold you yourself established for bad behavior in your oppose. The OP made it clear that the user has restored the problematic material after having the community already discuss it with them. The user has therefore crossed the threshold for a topic ban that you support. Lastly, this is not a "good-faith effort" as you claim, but a giant soapbox. I take it you don't work with content very much. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Off site recruitment by temporarily blocked tendentious editor

DonaldKronos (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Donald Kronos's Google plus page

DonaldKronos was blocked for edit warring at Evolution (report here), and has begun recruiting on his Google plus page. Kronos initially responded to reversion by calling it vandalism (continuing even after being asked to stop), and has since gone on accuse others of "CENSORSHIP", "HIDING THE TRUTH" (with a rant about religion that probably goes against AGF), and "HIDING WHAT EVOLUTION IS" (even though his edit made things less focused). He thinks that undoing his work is "an attack against humanity". With posts like this, it's clear that he has little-to-no capacity to assume good faith.

He claims he was blocked "FOR TRYING TO WORK WITH PEOPLE" and that he was never given the chance to explain his edits, which is a patent lie. He was told repeatedly to use the talk page, and warned about edit warring. He has regularly asked for explanations that have been repeatedly explained at both Talk:Evolution and on his talk page.

I think we're looking at a case of WP:NOTHERE and WP:RGW. He clearly sees Misplaced Pages as a platform for his writing, not for collaboration. He believes that he's "trying to defend humanity" (source) with his tantrums.

And if anyone wants to try to make this a content dispute, his edits were reverted by multiple editors for being off-topic and not being a summary of the rest of the article. Heck, even his own fans are arguing against his edits.

I welcome the possibility of improvement from any inexperienced editor, but it's not our hopes that determine whether that happens. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:27, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment User:98.247.126.245 here in good faith wants to refer to Talk:Evolution#Inappropriate_discussion as well. I don't think the discussion needs to be copied. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm concerned about WP:OUTING but what is required right now? We can't stop him from his off-wiki conduct. He's current blocked here. If you believe User:TheProfessor is a WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT puppet, report it at WP:SPI if you'd like but that editor has been here since 2011 so otherwise you need to assume good faith . I'll review his user talk page and see if removing talk page access is required. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe TheProfessor is a sock or meatpuppet (which is why I never mentioned him), but DonaldKronos's Google plus post does call for help on Misplaced Pages, his block is only going to last about another day and a half, and the off-site recruiting is part of a larger problem with DonaldKronos. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the other editor did at the talk page so I wanted to clarify that. It wasn't directed at you, my apologies for any confusion. I asked User:EdJohnston to review it rather than me just increase it at the moment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:10, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Whether he gets it or not, at the very least, I think the discussion on his talk page has calmed down. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Having read most of what DonaldKronos has written on his talk page, this is a clear case of WP:CIR. Any expectation the behavior will change and he'll become a useful contributor is just wishful thinking. My view is cut him loose and who cares what he writes on his Google+ page. Next. – JBarta (talk) 05:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You mean block him completely now? His block is only for three days. I'm pretty certain a WP:NOTHERE block will follow instantly after that if his behavior hasn't changed by then but I'm still in line with waiting it out. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:37, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mean just indefinitely block him now. – JBarta (talk) 06:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

being pestered by admitted sock of banned user:whereismylunch

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The user in the title is blocked for being a sock of an account the name of which is so offensive I won't quote it, but user talk:whereismylunch. Now user:Successor account to whereismylunch is pestering me on my talk page diff. I don't want to have anything to do with this, will someone please take action? Thanks, and Merry Christmas. μηδείς (talk) 02:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

My apologies. I'm not a sockpuppet of the account mentioned on my previous userpage. That was an honest mistake on the part of the administrator. I was just asking why he hatted my question on the reference desk. If he could just discuss it with me, that would be great.Successor account to whereismylunch (talk) 02:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Now, if he doesn't want to discuss it, that's fine. Also,what i meant is that my previous account, whereismylunch, is not a sockpuppet account.Successor account to whereismylunch (talk) 03:02, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Missouri footnote on Template:Samesex marriage in USA map

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Same-sex marriage is legal in St. Louis, Missouri" has been the wording for the Missouri footnote for almost a month now. That wording was changed and then I reverted that bold edit noting "We don't need to include rogue counties! Unlike Kansas, Missourian counties aren't 'within their right' to issue." Dralwik reverted me and said "I like this vaguer wording more." Since there was no consensus for the "vaguer" wording, I reverted the footnote back to its original wording per WP:STATUSQUO. Dralwik reverted the statusquo and said "Let's see if you violate 3RR". I definitely don't want to violate the 3RR rule, but I feel like per WP:STATUSQUO the original wording should be re-added until there is consensus for the other wording. WP:STATUSQUO says "If there is a dispute, editors are encouraged to work towards establishing consensus, not to have one's own way" and I feel like they went against this by reverting me because they "like" the other wording. They claim that there is consensus for the footnote due to the Color change proposal for Missouri. However, please note that their rough draft proposal for the wording was "Same-sex marriage is legal in St. Louis, Missouri" which is what the footnote has said for almost a month; but then they reverted against that wording twice! I'd like to see the template go back to the statusquo until there is a consensus for the other wording. Prcc27 (talk) 04:16, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Consensus can change. Just discuss it at the talk page. Why should the statusquo overrule the consensus forming at the talk page? And besides you also reverted User:Shereth's version so again, go to the talk page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• @Ricky81682: That's the point, there is no consensus for changing the wording so the template should reflect the statusquo. WP:STATUSQUO says "During a dispute, until a consensus is established to make a change, the status quo reigns." Consensus may be "forming" but it isn't established. While the edit is being disputed the map should go back to the status quo. Once again, their rough draft proposal for the footnote had the status quo wording "Same-sex marriage legal in St. Louis, Missouri" but it wasn't until after everyone indicated they supported the coloring proposal for Missouri that Dralwik expressed they supported Shereth's wording and reverted me when I reverted the bold edit and then again when I reverted back to the status quo. Prcc27 (talk) 06:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Shereth's edit was a bold edit since the status quo version was up there for about a month and they changed it. So per WP:BRD the reverted bold edit should have stayed reverted while we're discussing and while we're working on consensus! Prcc27 (talk) 06:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Question: is this in the right noticeboard or does it belong in the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard..? Prcc27 (talk) 06:22, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

DRN is probably more appropriate. Remember that BRD and STATUSQUO are essays not policies. They have never been elevated as such and so that's why there isn't likely to be much of an concern about what the current version should be. At this stage, move towards finding a consensus which hopefully is a middle ground that all parties can agree upon. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oh okay thanks, I will probably take my concerns to the DRN and I will keep working towards a consensus on the footnote wording. Prcc27 (talk) 11:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Legal Threat

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There's a blatant legal threat at by User:LEGIA2014. Squinge (talk) 13:38, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Very obvious legal threat. But is there any merit to the complaint? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Gowtham avg

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Could someone block the IPs listed at Chutti TV (SPI's here) as well as protect the article, (I know this doesn't belong here but since it's Xmas & half the place's deserted action will hopefully happen alot quicker here), Thanks, –Davey2010 14:00, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• I semi-protected; there's little point in blocking IPs now. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Was my request closed by an admin or deleted by an editor?

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I am not sure exactly what happened to the request I posted a few days ago. This diff shows it was removed, but it is not clear to me who deleted it. Did an admin close it? Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 15:56, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It was actually removed with this diff, when a bot automatically archived it to here. Hopefully someone else can explain the bot's archiving rules because I'm not totally sure how it decides what to archive, but it seems to be some period of inactivity. Sam Walton (talk) 16:09, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Apparently the thread was archived because editors/admins didn't see much of value in the report. I agree, for this case. Now, the user has been blocked for edit warring before but that was a while ago. In this case a report at WP:ANEW would have been the better place, though a patrolling admin there might have noted that you reverted their initial edit twice, and that you might be the edit warrior there. Drmies (talk) 16:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies, that could be. Please advise if I didn't handle it correctly so I don't repeat in the future. The user had deleted a quote had had been part of the article for a long time—since at least May (I didn't look further back). I reverted the deletion, pointing to WP:BRD and inviting discussion on the talk page. The user instead deleted again, insisting the quote did not have consensus. I reverted, stated that he/she was edit warring, and asked them to take it to the talk page to build a consensus for change. Was the second revert on my part not appropriate? To be sure, if the user re-deleted the material again, I would not have reverted again; I would have then taken it to an admin. However, if a second revert to a version of an article that has had consensus for quite some time is not generally acceptable, please let me know. Perhaps taking it to an admin immediately after someone violates WP:BRD is more appropriate? Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 18:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Airborne84, there's nothing simple about this, and the whole thing can be very frustrating. First of all, though, BRD isn't a policy so you can't really hang a case on it. Personally, I think BRD all too often gives the upper hand to the status quo editor; I think it is well-intended but also off-putting, and at any rate not adhering to it is not really disruption. Second, "taking it to an admin"--well, in this case an admin can't do much since no policies have been broken (yet--at least not 3R, for instance). Third your second revert isn't "wrong", necessarily (or against policy, or blockable, etc.), but if you're going to report someone for edit warring such a revert looks really bad.

  In a perfect world, after their reinstatement of their own edit you call up the troops on the talk page, find consensus, etc.--but that's not always easy. However, that is the best way to go about it, even if it doesn't always work, and even if it will go a lot slower than you think. Consensus on the talk page is typically iron-clad and the moment you have it, your opponent can be charged with disruptive editing ("editing against clear consensus") if they persist, and that's blockable.

  BTW, I looked at some of the discussion about that quote, and I'm not quite following. Someone said "FRINGE"--well, you're talking about Russell, so "idiosyncrasy" is appropriate, "fringe" is not. Personally I think the entire section needs to be looked at again since his view is very interesting, but the section needs to be trimmed, it needs to be much more a summary of the main article, and I don't know that editors in that discussion treated it as such. But that's by the by. Good luck, merry Christmas, and stay airborne, Drmies (talk) 22:21, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

At the very, very top of this page --in the edit buffer, not what you see rendered -- it says:

{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}}
|maxarchivesize = 700K
|counter = 866
|algo = old(36h)
|key = 95f2c40e2e81e8b5dbf1fc65d4152915
|archive = Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d
}} 

which would make one think something called "MiszaBot" archives the page. No, this is Misplaced Pages, User:lowercase sigmabot III archives the page -- it replaced MiszaBot when it died, and no one wanted to go update all the configurations. So, nominally any thread that over 36 hours old will get archived the next time the bot runs, but sometimes certain constructs in a post might hold it up. When that happens, eventually some one gets tired of the old thread hanging forever and either archives it totally manually, or using a utility like User:Equazcion/OneClickArchiver. NE Ent 20:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies and @Equazcion, many thanks for your advice and input. I appreciate it!

I have no objection to this being closed now. Or for a bot to autoarchive it.... Airborne84 (talk) 22:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm being harassed cross-wiki

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I'm not sure the appropriate place to go, but I'm being harassed by an IP cross-wiki. 14.136.219.161 seems to be stalking me on every site they can find, and it's starting to get quite annoying. They've hit here a couple of times, but I'm counting ten different messages alluding to "Get the fuck out of here" and even "I'm going to kill you". Any thoughts? Dusti 17:14, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You could write to emergency(at)wikimedia.org if you feel this is a serious issue and one could ban the IP across our project. The IP has been blocked here. If you perceive the threat as just a random statement from a vandal IP, it would be better to ignore it. Wifione 17:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Considering it's been ongoing for several days, I think it's past the random act of vandalism. I'll email them. Thanks @Wifione: - Merry Christmas! Dusti 17:34, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Viewfinder indefinite topic ban from Jacob Barnett

I am here to request an indefinite topic ban of Viewfinder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from editing Jacob Barnett, Talk:Jacob Barnett, and discussions directly connected with the subject (for example, future AfDs). Viewfinder has been persistently defending media claims that Barnett expanded and/or disproved Einstein's theory of relativity. For example, the TIME article "12-year old expands Einstein's theory of relativity" says "Could Einstein’s Theory of Relativity be a few mathematical equations away from being disproved? Jacob Barnett of Hamilton County, Ind., who is just weeks shy of his 13th birthday, thinks so. And, he’s got the solutions to prove it." They then go on to present Tremaine as having "confirmed he’s on the right track to coming up with something completely new." Almost all of the sources we reference say at least that Barnett "expanded Einstein's theory", which present that "expanded theory" as though it were a real thing. The Daily Mail, for instance, states that physicists "confirmed the authenticity of Jake's theory". Multiple sources have said that he is "about to disprove Einstein", that he is "disproving the Big Bang", etc. Here are just a few examples of this in the media:

• Indystar "The numbers that keep him from snoozing are the same that led him to develop his own theory of physics -- an original work that proposed a "new expanded theory of relativity" and takes what Einstein developed even further."
• Time "12-year old expands Einstein's theory of relativity" and "Could Einstein’s Theory of Relativity be a few mathematical equations away from being disproved? Jacob Barnett of Hamilton County, Ind., who is just weeks shy of his 13th birthday, thinks so. And, he’s got the solutions to prove it."
• CTV News "he built a series of mathematical models that expanded Einstein's field of relativity, which was described by a Princeton University professor as ground-breaking."
• The Blaze "he’s working on an expanded version of ’s theory of relativity. So far, the signs are good. Professors are astounded. So what else does a boy genius with vast brilliance do in his free time? Disprove the big bang, of course."
• Yahoo News "12-year-old boy has new theory of relativity" and "he's about to disprove Einstein's theory of relativity."
• Huffington Post: "Barnett believes he can prove Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity wrong, TIME reports. Astrophysics professor Scott Tremaine of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton confirms he's onto something. Another project in the works: disproving the Big Bang Theory."
• MacLean's: "Diagnosed with severe autism as a child, Barnett is now 15 and one of the world’s most promising physicists"

References

1. http://archive.indystar.com/article/20110320/LOCAL01/103200369/Genius-work-12-year-old-studying-IUPUI
2. http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/#ixzz1HvFA9JaT
3. http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/15-year-old-jacob-barnett-one-of-the-world-s-most-promising-physicists-1.1479602
4. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/03/25/a-beautiful-mind-12-year-old-boy-genius-sets-out-to-disprove-big-bang/
5. https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/good-news/move-over-einstein-12-old-boy-theory-relativity-20110328-130551-810.html
6. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/28/jacob-barnett-12-year-old_n_841577.html
7. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/jacob-barnett-boy-genius/

Now, all of this is obvious nonsense, as has been pointed out to User:Viewfinder by myself User:David Eppstein, User:Agricola44. However, perversely User:Viewfinder defends such statements in the media, and even denies that there is any obvious falsehood in statements of this kind. In several places at Talk:Jacob Barnett, as well as in a discussion at WP:FRINGE/N, where I address such material substantively and directly. Here are some of the points raised by User:Viewfinder:

• "You seem to be suggesting that his mother may have been serially lying to reporters. They're surely not all that gullible and her claims are likely to be verifiable." Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jacob_Barnett_(2nd_nomination)
• "Surely if Mrs Barnett were as dishonest as some contributors (notably SB and DE) are implying, then that would have been exposed long ago and the media would have stopped publicizing her." Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jacob_Barnett_(2nd_nomination)
• "You are challenging the reliability not just of the subject's mother, but of many internationally known publications, with plenty of fact checking resources. All of them are wrong and you are right? Strong stuff." Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jacob_Barnett_(2nd_nomination)
• "For the most part, I still maintain that he did think he had expanded relativity..." Talk:Jacob Barnett
• "Whether or not the material in question is fringe, it was written in publications that are certainly not fringe." WP:FRINGE/N
• "So if I am denying relativity, then so were the entire international broadsheet media. In the words of a contributor to the DRV, this is nonsense. Utter nonsense." User talk:Sławomir Biały
• "I see no 'obvious falsehood'." Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jacob_Barnett_(2nd_nomination)
• "To dismiss 'all' these sources as 'patently false' and 'blatantly unreliable pieces of journalistic sensationalism', is, pardon me, ridiculous." Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jacob_Barnett_(2nd_nomination)
• "Of course there is truth to some of the coverage... On the subjects of expanding relativity and the misrepresentation by the subject's mother, I think that the truth is debatable. For the most part, I still maintain that he did think he had expanded relativity, that he may have done so, and that he may have thought he was on the way to disproving Big Bang." Talk:Jacob Barnett

The most recent episode concerns the addition of a link to an obvious piece of promotional flap from the article. This link clearly failed Misplaced Pages's external link policy: a promotional link for "The Spark", maintained by the subject's mother, falsely presented as the subject's official website. Viewfinder then reverted the removal of this link, vigorously maintaining on the talk page that it had encyclopedic value, even though its actual purpose is obvious to anyone visiting the site. Viewfinder wrote the following at the AfD, suggesting probable WP:SOAPBOX reasons for this: "I happen to agree with Charlotte Moore who writes in the Spectator that '(Kristine) is an admirable woman, Jacob is a remarkable boy and their story deserves to be told'" and added: "I feel this way because I see SB refer to mother's cynical attempt to flog her new book in the media and BBB use the uncivil expression FFS, then refer to 'extremely poor' science journalism as 'normal', which I see as nasty attacks on an individual and a profession respectively. Loads of people attempt to use journalists to sell their work, and very few succeed. Despite the scientific flaws, that the mother has succeeded must surely count for something. Perhaps these journalists admire her determination to publicize her case of autistic child prodigy and frankly I agree with them. Go, Kristine. Go."

I have submitted that there are definite WP:COMPETENCE issues involved in Viewfinder's behavior. I have observed that he or she seems to be absolutely unable to read what is actually written in sources, guidelines, etc., and doggedly continues to defend the outlandish claims made in the media, despite many editors' warnings. I have raised the issue of what sources actually say twice at Talk:Jacob Barnett, and once at WP:FRINGE/N, but Viewfinder has refused to engage on any specifics. So it seems that there is a dichotomy here, either between WP:IDHT and WP:COMPETENCE: either this editor is acting in good faith but functionally illiterate, or he or she is wilfully acting disruptively. (In any event, I have been warned that it violates WP:NPA to point out one of these things, and WP:AGF to point out the other. So apparently there is no way to call out an editor for being a net negative to the project, wasting the time of otherwise productive editors. Is AGF really a life sentence?)

In either case, it seems to me that the community's patience has been thoroughly exhausted. As User:Agricola44 points out "We're all going batty." I motion that we should all be allowed to get on with more productive things, by issuing a topic ban of User:Viewfinder for topics related to Jacob Barnett. Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support. As nominator. Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

This is the third application to get me topic banned for my contributions to the talk page at Jacob Barnett. The last attempt was dismissed as being "not an ANI issue" and this attempt appears to be no different. I have only made one recent edit to the article itself, and when the nominator reverted that edit, I did not pursue the article any further. Yes, I have been having my say on the talk page, defending the international media against what the nominator calls "obvious falsehoods", but it that really grounds for a ban? Is there really evidence, as the nominator claims, that I must be either incompetent (he has called me an "incompetent idiot") or acting in bad faith? Viewfinder (talk) 19:04, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, given that the discussion that you linked to is not ANI, and the comment that you misquoted actually says as much, that "This is not ANI", I think this very comment nicely illustrates the kind of persistent incompetence that we all have to deal with. Or perhaps you are deliberately misrepresenting things. But in the end, it doesn't really matter why you do this sort of nonsense. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:39, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Also, I wish to draw attention to Viewfinder's accusations that those who disagree with him are part of a "cabal": here, here, here, and most recently here, in violation of a bright line against any such further insinuations that I set here. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I did not use the word "cabal" in the most recent example, even it appears on the nominator's user page. I referred to a tightly-knit deletion team, that has come together to go to considerable lengths to get the article deleted. I opposed these attempts, and so far they have been unsuccessful, but it is not hard to see that the nominator wants to deny me any say in likely future attempts. If I am so incompetent, why must he go to so much length to get me topic banned? Viewfinder (talk) 19:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Just looking through some of the discussions between Sławomir Biały and Viewfinder, I notice that of the two, Sławomir Biały seems to be behaving rather badly. Repeated insults is no way to persuade anyone and may actually result in sanctions against you. I also notice that Viewfinder seems to be overly willing to respond to all the insults and the arguing. Not sure why he thinks that will accomplish anything other than warming the air. If Sławomir Biały were to restrain himself and argue only specific article content and Viewfinder only responded to arguments regarding specific article content, they might find their differences a little more manageable. – JBarta (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect, this bullshit has being going on forever. Viewfinder has been systematically WP:IDHT, and enough truly is enough. Do productive editors really need to put up with civil trolls who can stick their fingers in their ears, going "Lalalalala", despite endless entreaties from multiple parties? Surely not. Productive editors can only take so much of this. So, I'm looking for something a little more useful than "let's all just get along mmkay." That's been tried. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd also note that Viewfinder has made precisely one edit to the article in the last four months and rarely edits the article in general (at least looking back a year or so)... though of late the arguing is rather continuous. A lot of this seems like arguing just for the sake of arguing. The cure for that is quite simply... stop arguing. – JBarta (talk) 20:10, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, lots of trolling indeed has occurred on that discussion page. He even brazenly continues the trolling here: see his two posts immediately above. Shall I hat or revert future trolling, then? Sławomir Biały (talk) 01:00, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, I was actually thinking that you are continuously arguing with someone who doesn't actually edit the article (or at least edits very little). If you restrained yourself to just discussing edits he actually makes, you two would have much less to argue about. – JBarta (talk) 01:24, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, but the latest episode regards a revert that Viewfinder made to the article, concerning a link that obviously did not belong there. Viewfinder seems intent on questioning any change to the article, no matter how obvious, on what seems to be purely idealogical grounds (see, for instance, Talk:Jacob Barnett#Ordering of first paragraph). Moreover, it still seems that there is real work to be done there, but positively no meaningful discussion can proceed whilst Viewfinder continually derails things on the talk page. See, for instance, his most recent "proposal" to implicitly validate the relativity denialists, added at the end of a section where it did not belong (which followed a long discussion over a month ago already rejecting a similar such proposal). He does this out of an idealogical commitment to the subject, and that creates an extremely unpleasant editing environment for the good-faith editors there. Sławomir Biały (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I am mystified when I visit User:Sławomir Biały, seeing a notice stating the editor is "semi-retired", and then check their edit history. That says they haven't edited since August 6, 2013, but here they are, happily editing away. Can anyone explain why their edits aren't being logged in their contribution list? I am in general agreement with Sławomir Biały on the content issues, but their repeated hostility and personal attacks against Viewfinder are beyond the pale. I urge Sławomir Biały to cease the insults immediately. Cullen Let's discuss it 01:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)