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Why are we citing First Things so much?

I get impression that First Things has inherited the mantle of Erik Kain in the draft article. According to the ref list is now up to five citations. Is it because of the novelty of a conservative view being expressed in a reliable source? --TS 03:49, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• If it's a reliable source, then what's the problem? The New Yorker is cited at least six times, The Washington Post at least eight, New York at least five, Vox at least seven, Columbia Journalism Review at least eight. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 04:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The article is a first-person opinion column, not a news story, and must be cited as such. I write not because I am a Gamergate partisan—the movement was largely over by the time I had thoroughly investigated it—but because Mary Eberstadt is right: silence emboldens the practitioners of the New Intolerance. Gamergate was not a perfect movement, and neither was the loose coalition of conservatives, libertarians, and contrarians who opposed the social justice incursions into science fiction. But someone ought to speak out. If we wait for a perfect victim to emerge, we will be waiting forever. It's an interesting and useful source for a contrary opinion to the predominant one, but must be presented as such. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I've no problem with it being cited, but I worry that we often fall for a kind of recentism, picking up a novel article and giving it rather more weight than it can bear. The article suffers in such circumstances because one voice is being repeatedly juxtaposed to many others, in a way that gives it presentation false balance. It's a bit like altering our article on global warning to insert at length, and repeatedly, the views of the tiny minority of scientists who reject the well established greenhouse effect. --TS 04:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• The greenhouse effect is a scientific phenomenon. GamerGate is a huge mess. Now, on your "tiny minority" argument, if you'd look at the Misogyny and antifeminism section, we quote over ten sources (including The Washington Post / The Week / Iowa Public Radio / Macleans / Develop / GamesIndustry.biz / On the Media / The Daily Beast / Mother Jones / The New Yorker) who express an anti-GG POV, and you're protesting against one source (perhaps the only one) which provides a dissenting POV? You'd rather have 10-0 versus 10-1, that's balance to you? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

When talking about weight in articles, we don't just talk about how many sources are used, but how frequently these sources are cited and to what extent Misplaced Pages uses these to display information. I believe Tony Sidaway is talking about how frequently the source is cited, not just it being cited (which he seems to not mind.) PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

As I have pointed out above in my first comment, there are at least four more sources which have been cited more than First Things. Upon further reading, the New York Times has been cited seven times in the article, the Verge eight... get my point? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 06:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Those sources should be cited more, as they have each written multiple articles discussing the issue which represent the predominant, mainstream point of view on the issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

But this is a social issue, not a scientific one. There are multiple ways of interpreting a social issue; there is no need to double down on a single standpoint, especially when one of your principal sources is The Verge, which is a tech blog, not a journal of American society. Shii (tock) 12:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The Verge is far more widely read and more respected journalistically than First Things, an explicitly-religious, socially and politically conservative journal. Moreover, there aren't multiple ways of interpreting false allegations about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Shii (tock) 16:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Our article on First Things helpfully describes them. The journal is inter-denominational and inter-religious, representing a broad intellectual tradition of Christian and Jewish critique of contemporary society. With a circulation of approximately 30,000 subscribers, First Things is considered to be influential in its articulation of a broadly ecumenical and erudite social and political conservatism. Meanwhile, The Verge nets at least 20 million unique visitors per month, as of last March, and is almost certainly higher today.

I happen to think First Things is well-written and generally well-argued. But there can be no argument that it's anything but a platform for primarily conservative religious and social views. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there something bad about expressing conservative religious views, that makes them not notable or relevant to American social upheaval? In the lead to that same article, we have a Newsweek quote calling First Things "the most important vehicle for exploring the tangled web of religion and society in the English-speaking world." I would argue that a religious outlook on social issues is more relevant than The Verge which is basically an industry and product review blog. How exactly do we determine who the most relevant voices are in American society? Shii (tock) 17:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The entire article reeks of recentism, and from one side of the discussion as well. There are more sources like First Things out there, we'd be smarter to find more like it than complain about reliable sources that are more accurate than the ones we currently use. Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

It does not "reek" of one side of the discussion. The "discussion", such as it is, is the general public looking at gamergate and being rightfully thoroughly appalled at the vicious sexist harassment and essentially ignoring idiotic claims of "but ethical journalism will be just presenting 'objective' reviews of games - ie whether or not they are fun" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I've said. It reeks of one side of the discussion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There is only one side, I'm afraid. The minor, dissenting "but ethics" point-of-view is not equatable, and is given the coverage that it is due, per policy. That is all we can do, is go by the reliable sources. Tarc (talk) 14:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

As noted before, there are multiple sides and facets to this issue, of which only one gets a hearing here, and it's not due to the lack of coverage. This will be dealt with soon, I'm sure. No established editor wants to go outside of the reliable sources, but many of us do want the reliable sources used appropriately. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The best way to make it better is to suggest changes, complete with appropriate sources. If the coverage is there (which I dispute but if it is there) then you should be able to do that.Soupy sautoy (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the well is so poisoned it's better to wait and see if the worst parties are removed from the topic area first. Even questions get you labeled a troll, so right now it's more an awareness thing in hopes some change their tune. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

That's been the 8chan/reddit playbook all along; agitate the real Misplaced Pages editors, run to Arbcom for relief, then hopefully return the atricle to all its Quinn/Sarkeesian/Wu-bashing early days It remains to bee seen whether this was an effective strategy or not, hopefully Arbcom was up to the task of drilling down to what really happened here. Tarc (talk) 15:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

What any outside group wants is not my concern. I'm interested in a neutral article on a controversial topic, and we do not currently have that. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually we do have that now, just needs a little quotefarm and bloat cleanup. The focu of the article as the Draft version stands is essentially correct. Tarc (talk) 15:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The draft article has a very skewed focus that does not reflect the accuracy of the situation, which is a problem that will need resolution eventually. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it does reflect the accuracy of the situation, as per all the reliable sources. Even the movement's supporters (c.f. First Things) admit that Gamergate is effectively dead at this point. The movement has devolved into random swatting, doxing and invective targeting its opponents, and isn't even pretending to be about "journalism ethics" at this point. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This is what our article says, yes. The concern is what is actually occurring. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You and others have been repeatedly invited to present the reliable sources which say something else is occurring. That you and others have been unable or unwilling to do so suggests the accuracy of the situation is, indeed, well-reflected by our article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Many have and continue to do so. That the process has largely been driven by bad acting than fundamental encyclopedia building is why many of us, myself included, are taking a more wait-and-see approach. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we have all seen the attempts to present anonymous blogs and Breitbart as acceptable sources for salacious and highly defamatory claims about living people. They continue to not count as reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And I'll join you in continuing to not want to include those sources in there, while continuing to criticize the skew of this article and the behavior that has created the failed article we currently have. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Two of the five times First Things is cited its just a footnote that's been tacked on to something already cited in another source. So it's not really that overrepresented. Bosstopher (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'd say that it should just be stripped out. The purpose of the article is not to enumerate every comment anyone has made; the purpose is to give an overarching description of coverage. One blog post by a media commentator does not change that, and it is giving it WP:UNDUE weight to include it without further support that the opinion expressed is significant (eg. similar commentators stating similar things.) Additionally, after looking over it, it was frequently quoted in areas where the quote or opinion it was cited for was tangential to the topic of the paragraph; remember, quotes and cites shouldn't be added simply as a way of indirectly repeating your own opinions in the article, but because they genuinely illuminate noteworthy swaths of the public reaction. I'm not seeing that here. (Remember, we just managed to trim the article down from the QUOTEFARM warning; if people start citing random blogs to argue point / counterpoint against each other by proxy, it'll explode back to there in no time.) --Aquillion (talk) 08:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oh come on. Any pro-GG POV is obviously the minority, so you're raising the bar to "noteworthy swaths", as well as dismissing the source as a "random blog". This plainly increases the partial slant of the article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 12:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

How long until you get it? You have stated it directly above, as per policy we represent the viewpoints of the subject as they are representative of the mainstream views. Since the mainstream views of the subject are near unanimous in their reception/view, per POLICY, our article will reflect such a view, and ONLY by doing so will the article be/retain its encyclopedic Neutral Point of View. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not what the policy says; we don't pick the predominate opinion and only present that. It will get the most details in the article, yes, but we don't simply omit other opinions. We cannot take any view even if it a near unaminous view taken by reliable sources, and we should be looking for reliable sources that cover the other side of the issue or give counterpoints, as long as those sources are strong reliable sources. I don't think this source qualifies as such, but the point is that to be neutral, we should be trying to find ways to be able to cover counter points if they are minority views; if more than singular sources express these points, we should be discussing them here. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The overwhelming majority of significant viewpoints in reliable sources are quite clear and unanimous and you have failed to provide evidence otherwise. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unanimous in saying what? I feel like we have constructed an imaginary "consensus" here without explaining exactly what sort of views it ought to be able to silence. Is independent analysis that appears in a reliable source somehow "wrong" in its entirety, or is it merely inconvenient because it forces us to engage in critical thought? What specific views are supposed to be "overwhelming", and in which specific sources do they appear? Shii (tock) 21:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unanimous that gamergate is nothing more than a clusterfuck of online, vicious harassment directed mostly at women that signifies nothing more than the culture wars have reached into gaming. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The First Things article is basically on board with that, so you shouldn't have any objection to it. Shii (tock) 22:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Then we return to Tony's question of Why are we including First Post when we have better levels of sourcing for those claims? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As I said many times, because it is an outside source providing an independent viewpoint on what the cultural war is and why it is being fought. Shii (tock) 00:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

And then we are back to whether this singular voice is actually representative of a significant viewpoint when we dont have other reliable sources making comments on the same wavelength. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

NPOV is more than just UNDUE. There are several facets of being neutral, and one is impartiality. We should not be approaching this article with the mindset "There is only one major view, everything else is fringe", we instead, to be impartial, need to approach this recognizing that there are many other viewpoints on the situation and we should be trying to find sufficient (in terms of quantity and quality) of sourcing to include those other views to be impartial. Yes, the predominate viewpoint will still be the major fraction of this article, but to take the attitude that because the bulk of the sourcing have settled on one view that we should exclude all other views is not an acceptable way to write a neutral article. --MASEM (t) 22:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

And back to the "but its not impartial!!!!" without being able to actually identify any actual instances of non-impartiality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

So I take it you want to keep the First Things discussion since it is, after all, impartial. Shii (tock) 22:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The attitude above is exactly the case of not being impartial - we cannot treat the predominate view as the only view , if there are reliable sources that also describe the other views (Which they do). Refusal to acknowledge that there are other views that have the possibility of being sources is a serious problem for editing neutrality. --MASEM (t) 22:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

We DO cover the "but ethics", probably in far more detail and length than it is given credit the reliable sources . And claims of "impartiality" happening on the talk page are irrelevant to the NPOV policy which covers article content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

That's one angle. This source is a different point of view (coming from what appears someone uninvolved in GG). Trying to shut down discussion of these points when there are no immediately bogus issues (likely grossly-insulting BLP or a far-from-reliable source) because you claim that it is a point that won't fit into the article due to UNDUE is a problem; we have to be open to discussing all issues that are completely fair to discuss, unless it is clear that they have been discussed to death in the past. As this is a "new" source, that claim can't be made, and instead it is fair to see what other points align with this source and see if it is worthy of inclusion , as to be impartial to the matter. NPOV may not apply to talk page, but talk page behavior that attempts to bypass discussion as to what aspects of NPOV or other policies apply is not appropriate for talk pages. --MASEM (t) 22:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

then we are back to UNDUE- if the analysis/interpretation is only coming from this one guy, it is probably not a voice /interpretation that we should cover in any level of depth if at all. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Or we find better sources. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

We have New York Times, Guardian, PBS, Washington Post, Columbia Journalism Review, Australian Broadcast Company, BBC, On The Media, New York Magazine , Inside Higher Ed... not really sure what "better sources" you might be wishing for. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways. Many of the opinions featured in the present article that are strongly against GG are just that of "one guy" (the writer), though when you take their points overall, they'll all in the same broad direction; that is, we right to discuss the broad opinions but we're still overly quoting singular voices representing different facets of that broad opinion. There's just as equal a valid broad opinion favoring GG from reliable sources, and if we're going to feature singular voices from the broad antiGG side then there's no reason to have as much call-to to a singular voice from the proGG side; otherwise, we remove the singular voices - at least those that are not major players in the overall controversy (eg we can including Quinn, or Intel, etc.) - least we admit being not partial and hypocritical. Note that the sources still have to be high quality, and this is not saying that the same amount of ink has to be devoted to the other side because that's against UNDUE, but it is UNDUE and impartial to allow detailed analysis of one side and refuse to allow similar from the other side when the quality of the sourcing is just as good. --MASEM (t) 15:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

(To add, I'd much rather prefer to keep the more detailed points from the higher quality sources on both sides - avoiding quotefarming but touching on core points that only secondary sources on the whole situation can make. But this means allowing those same from the proGG side when they come from a similar high quality source). --MASEM (t) 16:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

"There's just as equal a valid broad opinion favoring GG from reliable sources" - Bullshit. Just plain utter unadulterated bullshit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Aquillion's comment here goes to the heart of my concerns. The viewpoint expressed in that essay is an extreme outlier, so all bt most cursory references risk unbalancing our article. Indeed we're using it in several places to gainsay the overwhelming weight of informed opinion. --TS 19:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the viewpoint is different does not change the fact that First Things is one of the most reliable and notable sources when it comes to analysis of American civic life, and is far more noteworthy than the likes of Vox and The Verge. Shii (tock) 21:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I note that User:Tarc has now removed the content twice despite the fact that he has neither justified his characterization nor indeed participated in this discussion at all. Shii (tock) 21:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Most reliable and notable according to whom? It's a religious magazine with a small readership as far as I can tell. Let's not over weight it. — Strongjam (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

FYI, you can find First Things in any American library that carries political journals, alongside similar publications like The Atlantic, Foreign Affairs, and the New York Review of Books. If you ever read a book about religion in America after 1990 you will probably see it mentioned. It's not my fault that you haven't heard of it; you only have to read the first two paragraphs of its Misplaced Pages article to see that it is far more relevant to encyclopedic summaries of cultural commentary than tech blogs. Shii (tock) 21:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, a religious journals take on a controversy founded in the technology world is not as relevant as a major technology news site take on it. It's useful, but it shouldn't be so heavily weighted. — Strongjam (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I don't think that the tech blogs have too much weight in the draft article or that they are biased (after all, we have the NYT and New Yorker in agreement), but they are very close to the controversy and deserve a bit of balance with an uninvolved attempt to frame the controversy in light of culture wars more generally. First Things should be considered more notable than, for example, Anders Sandberg's academic analysis which he posted on his blog, and which we currently devote a full paragraph to. Shii (tock) 21:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Geez, hysterics much? I have been following the discussion throughout, and saw little need to post a "I agree" post. But if it will make you feel better, I agree with the sentiments of Aquillion and TS. Happy? Tarc (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Please explain to me in what way I am being hysterical. Shii (tock) 21:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Your Downton Abbey-esque "my goodness, the dear chap protests without communication!" above. This is a fringe, minor point-of-view being giving more prominence that it deserves, now being edit-warred over by single-purpose accounts. This is what we're trying to get out of this topic area. Tarc (talk) 22:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Blog discussion

• Whether the First Things article was religious or not (having read it, I don't see the religion stuff), First Things Is a journal which critiques society and GamerGate is part of that. The relevance of the source shouldn't mbe questioned .Likewise the claim that it's a random blog should be nullified, lest we trim all "random blogs" from the article. I'd say First Things should have a lot more say on "social justice" than Vox. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 01:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • But it is one blog post in a journal only tangentially related to videogames or journalism. The reason we cite such commentators is to explain noteworthy coverage, responses, and analysis about the subject; when the overwhelming majority of commentary agrees on something, it is naturally noteworthy, and we need large numbers of citations to establish that. On the other hand, when one person writes a blog post disagreeing (even if it were a noteworthy blog), giving them this sort of extensive focus amounts to WP:UNDUE weight; our article is not meant to be a catalog of every blogger's opinions on the topic, nor a place where people can fire off quotes from various blogs as a form of point-counterpoint; rather, it is meant to summarize the noteworthy views. Nothing about First Things gives me any impression that their views on this controversy are intrinsically noteworthy simply because this blog is saying them; nor, thus far, has anyone made a particularly compelling argument that the personal opinions this blogpost expresses are noteworthy in their own way the way (eg.) the large-scale reactions summarized elsewhere in the article are. Therefore it is mostly non-notable in the context of the article. --Aquillion (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
    • @User:Aquillion -- are you aware that The Verge and Vox are also blogs? By the standard you just employed, everything cited to those sources should be removed from the article as well. Shii (tock) 13:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
      • They publish both news and commentary about the news; they're not just opinion-blogs the way that particular column from First Things is. We only cite their more opinion-oriented pieces, as far as I am aware, for their opinion in situations where we can establish that this opinion is notable (eg. as part of a list of many other opinions to establish that a particular interpretation is widespread and not just one random blogger commenting on it.) When they focus on the news, I believe they pass WP:RS; Vox does its own reporting and has a history of issuing updates and corrections when necessary, say, which is an important part of being a reliable source (as WP:RS says, "One signal that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy is the publication of corrections.") Both of them are also heavily focused on analyzing and interpreting the news, the media, and reporting, which are central to this topic -- we badly need the kind of in-depths coverage they provide in order to write about GamerGate at all, given how complicated it is. The First Things article, though, is just a blogpost in which someone expresses their personal opinion -- it makes no claims to accuracy, nor is there any reason to grant that author's opinion any particular weight beyond anyone else's. Their 'about' page, as far as I can tell, talks a lot about how they intend to confront the ideology of secularism and push a religious viewpoint, but very little about how they intend to ensure accuracy or reliability in their articles. This, to me, gives me the impression that their opinion pieces would be worth citing (carefully, with an eye to avoid giving their particular view undue weight) to give the opinion of people who oppose secularism and want to push for greater presence of religion in the public sphere in an article where the opinion of people like that is clearly relevant (eg. articles about religion), but it doesn't give any reason to think that stuff from their opinion-pieces is reliable for matters of fact, nor any reason to think that their opinion is at all relevant in a topic like this one. --Aquillion (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
        • This is a totally upside-down world you have pushed us into. Remember, this is a social issue, so there is no "right" side, only a general consensus. What you are saying is that Vox is a better blog source because they claim to have exclusive access to the deepest levels of metaphysical truth, where as First Things is inferior because they admit they are approaching issues from a certain perspective. This despite the fact that Vox has been known for grossly biased opinion articles and politically motivated false reporting, whereas First Things pursues some modicum of intellectual honesty. I really hope Misplaced Pages doesn't work this way.
        • BTW, I'm not actually objecting to the current use of the First Things article in the draft, I just want to make it clear that it is an RS on this subject and should not be stripped from the article, despite how inconvenient that may be. Shii (tock) 18:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
          • • I wouldnt cite the federalist.com as a source whose claims and analysis should be taken seriously. They are pretty much just a muckraker without any reputation for accuracy themselves. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
              • If your distaste for thefederalist.com means that you require additional sources on the fact that there is no land bridge between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, I will be happy to provide them to you. Obviously my point was not to endorse thefederalist as a reliable source. Shii (tock) 18:41, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
                • If you were not using the federalist.com to attempt to bolster your claim, then why were you linking to the federalist.com multiple times as you attempted to construct your position? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
                  • The Federalist is a bad source for what we do here. That doesn't mean they're a bad source in the outside world for information on other sources. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
                    • Sure, outside Misplaced Pages you can choose to use sources that feed you falsities, rants and pablum, but that doesnt make them not-bad sources for information. It just means that in your personal life, you choose to be fed from bad sources.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Grace Lynn swatting again

The Grace Lynn swatting discussion (archived here) petered out before we decided what to do about the story. I suppose it's been a busy week, but here we now have plenty of coverage of a Gamergate-related event by major reliable sources. It would seem odd not to cover it in view of that. --TS 03:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

She appears to be the only source connecting an address she no longer lives at to anonymous posting on a forum and concludes it's gamergate supporters in real time (what are the odds?). She's flip-flopped on GamerGate because of the inherent conflict of modern feminism and transgender issues. This is perhaps the single most unreliable incident reported. It discredits the other instances through association, though, which is a strong argument to ignore it. --DHeyward (talk) 04:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Basically every reliable source acknowledges the person responsible claimed to have nothing to do with GamerGate with at least one explicitly describing it as the likely work of an unaffiliated troll. We shouldn't include everything that happens to a person connected with GamerGate in this article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:58, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• This incident is already on the swatting article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:47, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Unless we find some sources that talk about how things like the swatting are blamed on Gamergate when they aren't related, I'm not really seeing the point of putting it in given the lack of actual connection. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm seeing a lot of attempts to deny the known facts as reported by multiple reliable sources, and at least one attempt to say that all the reliable sources say the exact opposite.

Could we get back to reality, please? We're going to have to cover this. --TS 16:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Based on what? The known facts are that she has some sort of relationship to Gamergate, but that the swatting was unrelated to the actual movement. If we're going to include it, and I still don't see a good argument as to why we should, it will have to include that information. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• 'I am afraid for my safety': California woman has 20 police sent to former home in Portland as part of Gamergate harassment campaign.
• Gamergate: Woman blames online harassers for hoax that sent 20 Portland cops to her former home

The sources are crystal-clear here; a person or persons under the banner of "Gamergate" swatted a Gamergate critic. We can even tie it to 8chan directly;

• 8chan user offers to “swat” GamerGate critic, cops sent to an old address

and the information contained there that the police are looking to track down the hoaxer's identity. All of this is relevant to this article. Tarc (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The reality is that her relationship to GamerGate is tenuous. The Oregon Live article isn't particularly reliable for Gamergate as they call it an initial movement for ethics in "video journalism." She felt she was being harassed when she was pro-gamergate, too. Sources reporting based solely what she believes is too much weight. The police didn't attribute a motivation or name a suspect despite her call to the Portland PD and providing her view and the 8chan post doesn't seem to care who they swatted as long as they were doxxed. --DHeyward (talk) 16:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Only one of those sources actually attributes it to GamerGate, one makes no attribution, and another presents it as Lynn saying one thing and the party responsible saying another thing. This source implies a connection, but notes the party responsible denies affiliation with GamerGate. In The Verge the parties responsible are dismissed as likely trolls unaffiliated with GamerGate. Even Gawker doesn't say GamerGate is responsible. So the people responsible are widely reported to deny affiliation, sources overwhelmingly avoid implicating GamerGate themselves, and at least one outright states it was likely the work of an unaffiliated troll. This would fit just fine in the 8chan article. We don't need to include every incident with a dubious tangential GamerGate connection in this article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This sounds like the same situation with the media on that Blizzcon speech, where many wanted to interpret a simple head nod to an interview question as a full-out accusation against GG (with the higher quality, more neutral sources properly identifying that it was an implied reference). We have to remember that it is factually true there are third parties out there not associated with GG either direction that want to stir the pot, and this sounds like a case of just that. --MASEM (t) 19:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It was the 8chan "raid board" /baphomet/ who seem like the old 4chan /b/ that just love to raid and doxx everyone they can RetΔrtist (разговор) 10:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• I think it definitely belongs in the article, since there has been a huge amount of coverage connecting it to GamerGate; but we should be careful to source exactly what they say. In other words, we can report that most coverage has connected it to GamerGate, that the victim connected it to GamerGate, and so on, and that several news articles have noted that the anonymous nature of 8chan makes it difficult or impossible to confirm. But I think it's clear that sufficient sources have found the possibility of a connection to be notable enough and credible enough that we need to cover it here; it is, for the better or worse, a significant event in the coverage of GamerGate by reliable sources. The fact that an extensive list of reliable news sources found her allegations credible enough to publish is sufficient to include it in our article. --Aquillion (talk) 23:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Another Gamergate swatting. The target here is one Israel Galvez. Again, reported a reliable source.

• The Guardian, Jan 13, 2015, Gamergate hits new low with attempts to send Swat teams to critics

Further opposition to including these serious incidents in the article is looking increasingly silly. --TS 16:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, she is a Gamergate critic, but does everything that happens to someone critical (or supportive) of Gamergate need to be in this article? The swatting incident, the second this week linked with Gamergate, was co-ordinated on the “baphomet” subforum of the 8chan image board, a 4chan-style community which has become a hub of the movement, along with a subforum on the social news site Reddit. I didn't know that 8chan was a subforum of reddit or that the 8chan subforum "baphomet" was in any way affiliated with Gamergate. Those seem to be incorrect as a fact, no? The only connection to GG is that this person is critic of GG? 8chan ≠ Gamergate. Perhaps this is an article that is more appropriate for a criticism within the 8chan article? Ries42 (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Swatting is a particular notable form of harassment and I think it's received more then enough attention from RS to include in the article. Per Aquillion's comment above we should be careful say that it's been connected to Gamergate. I think Masem's edit to the draft article is a pretty good starting point, might need some editing to avoid WP:SAY. Strongjam (talk) 16:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC) —

I agree its a start, I've edited to make it clear that the reliable sources attributed the source to "baphomet." If we have a source that links the two (baphomet and gamergate) than we can add that and perhaps make a more causal link that the two are related. For now, I don't think we have a source that makes that link except in inference (i.e., critic of gamergate swatted by X, X must be pro GG instead of independently determining if X is actually related to GG or not). Ries42 (talk) 16:55, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The Guardian specifically states "in the latest attempted “swatting” attack linked to the Gamergate movement" and "The swatting incident, the second this week linked with Gamergate". We don't require reliable sources to "show their work", so to speak. If they made the connection, then we can use it. Woodroar (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind: 8chan baphomet users appear to be more on the disruptive side and less about any of the base GG "ethics" (even proGG at KIA believe the group is linked to GNAA), but we have no reliabe sources to make that connection otherwise. The problem right now is that because they operate off 8chan, which itself is strongly tied to GG (due to 4chan's moderation at the start of GG factoring into its creation), people are going to tie it directly to GG. I'm not saying that these swats aren't tied to GG (They are predominate anti-GG people that were swatted), but we need to be aware what's behind the scenes here, and the latest Guardian article is careful not to directly say the swatting came from GG supporters, just that its linked to the situation. --MASEM (t) 17:15, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Masem, and want to add, it doesn't explain how its "linked" to Gamergate. I'm not asking them to show their work, but the link appears to be, from the article, that the target is a GG critic. That's a link to Gamergate. But I do not see where in that article it says that the swatting was attributed to GG. Its attributed to baphomet by name. If there is a source that directly links the two, we should definitely use it and then we can say "GG swatted X because baphomet is GG," but I haven't seen anything like that. Yes 8chan has been linked to GG, but there is also evidence and reliable sources that show that not all of 8chan is related to GG. Its clearly complex. I don't think we can go wrong though just attributing exactly what the reliable source says, and allowing someone to either make or not make the inference themselves. We shouldn't have to spell something out that the reliable source didn't specifically spell out. Ries42 (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The person responsible linked their twitter account on the 8chan thread, and that twitter account's bio has the email from the 8chan post. I haven't seen a reliable source dig into that yet but he seems nice and not GG. Weedwacker (talk) 18:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I would definitely be on the watch (and hopeful for the sake of the proGGers that aren't involved) about the nature of baphomet and how it is apparently distanced from GG. We have this Gawker article that explains their take on the nature of baphomet, but doesn't ascribe its connection or lack thereof to GG. --MASEM (t) 18:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I doubt anyone wants to be associated with /baphomet/, they look like a very much like... well to be perfectly honest, they look more like the real scary boogeyman I've been hearing about (but maybe not seeing so much evidence of). We should look very critically at anyone who attempts to link baphomet with anyone in particular. Not that a connection couldn't exist, but it should be a solid, evidenced backed link and not a inference or opinion before we put it in the article. Ries42 (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, if the parties who keep reverting can come here and discuss please. I think that the blurb we have now is about as good as it gets, but I have two questions.

• First, the relation to Gamergate for these events appears to be that the targets were critical of Gamergate. That being said, the persons taking credit and who are being attributed with the attempted swattings do not appear to be tied or otherwise directly linked to Gamergate. At best it can be said that the closest link is that 8 chan and Gamergate are linked, but that would be like saying something that occurred in the "GamerGate" subforum on reddit is linked to the rest of reddit. The link is tenuous as described in the reliable sources at best.
• Second, with the first question and answer in mind, is this linked closely enough with Gamergate to merit inclusion in the article. It is related in the sense that it is similar to other harassment that has been alleged, and the its targets are critical of Gamergate; however, there do not appear to be direct links between these particular actions and a supporter of Gamergate, even in the loosest sense.

To this editor at least, this looks to be unrelated to the Gamergate controversy in the sense that while this was targeted at someone who may be considered part of the controversy, it was done for a reason and by someone unrelated to the controversy. Inclusion would make it seem as if those last two points are otherwise, unless we added additional commentary to that effect. Ries42 (talk) 19:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

in situations where it is your interpretation or the Guardian's, we go with the Guardian.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@Theredpendofdoom: You seem to only agree with what some reliable sources say Gamergate is, but ignore any reliable source that seems to say what Gamergate is not. Is there a reason for that? It seems to be YOUR interpretation, not a reliable sources, that Gamergate is all of the evil things being ascribed to it, and absolutely none of the "positive" things ascribed to it. Care to comment on your inherent bias here? Ries42 (talk) 21:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

In the end we're going to have to go with what our sources say, and they clearly are connecting it to Gamergate. This is a good example of the problems with GG being un-organized and attributing actions. My personal sense (obviously this is all WP:OR and won't make it into the article) is that the people targeted were chosen because they're GG critics and that gets more press at the moment, but the person doing it isn't necessarily a GG supporter. I think we should include it in the article, but just be very careful about attribution. That should be fine at the moment since our sources aren't directly attributing it to GG supporters, just connecting it to GG, which to me seems reasonable. — Strongjam (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

It's key that anti-GG people are being targetted, and there's still creating a fear of speaking out. It may not be the GG supporters or even those that might have harassed Quinn and the others 5 months ago, but as this sepearate Guardian article points out, "Like many Twitter campaigns, the ease of joining – which made it so powerful initially – eventually destroyed Gamergate. It became a magnet for sexist bullies who drowned out any substantive points. That said, the forces that drove it have not abated, so Gamergate is unlikely to die – it will simply mutate." This, my gut says, is part of that mutation, and why I hope we get more sources soon that call out what this group is and what seems to be their lack of ties to GG, if only to be clear how the GG hashtag has been easy to hijack for other purposes. --MASEM (t) 20:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The SWATTERS are as completely and truly the "actual" Gamergate as the "but ethics" crowd and anyone who wants to be taken seriously should have in 5 months recognized that. Anonymous postings in troll havens is not a way to have a "movement". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

"The SWATTERS are as completely and truly the 'actual' Gamergate as the 'but ethics' crowd...." Er, not unless they identify as supporters of Gamergate, no. Otherwise your definition of "Gamergate" is effectively "anyone on the internet who does something I don't like." Starke Hathaway (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

When you choose to be anonymous trolls on the internet, you get what you get. thats just the facts. The "ethics" gamergaters, if there are actually any of them, should have realized this months ago, but they apparently are a little slow and per the First Post some of them are just waking up to this fact now. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You are of course entitled to your own interesting if peculiar understanding of what Gamergate is, but the reliable sources don't share your unique perspective on class inclusion problems and neither should the article. Even if you accept the proposition that all Gamergate supporters are trolls, it does not follow that all trolls are Gamergate supporters.Starke Hathaway (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: To my reversion of your addition: the Guardian and other article stated there was a link between GG and the incident. The article did not link baphomet and GG as you would see by either reading the source objectively, or this discussion. If you want to put greater emphasis on the link between GG and the incident, feel free, but the source does not link baphomet and GG and any inference or explicit link in the article is inappropriate. WP:PROVEIT if you wish to state otherwise. Ries42 (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The Guardian explicitly states that baphomet is a subforum of Gamergate's online hub — the “baphomet” subforum of the 8chan image board, a 4chan-style community which has become a hub of the movement. That's "a link," obviously. As for your reference to "logic," it's not my logic, it's the reliable source's logic, and you're in no position to question that source's reporting and determination of a link just because you disagree with it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The entire quote, that you're taking out of context reads: The swatting incident, the second this week linked with Gamergate, was co-ordinated on the “baphomet” subforum of the 8chan image board, a 4chan-style community which has become a hub of the movement, along with a subforum on the social news site Reddit. By that quote, 8chan is a subforum of reddit (its not), further, the quote is describing 8chan as a "hub" for the movement, not baphomet. Baphomet is a completely separate subforum, and even the Guardian does not link GG to baphomet. If it said "Baphomet, a hub for GG" that would be what you're looking for. It doesn't. By your logic, all of reddit is also linked to GG. And yes, I'm attacking your logic, not the Guardian's. The Guardian is not editing WP to link baphomet to GG, you are. Ries42 (talk) 21:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's take this real slow, because you haven't understood it yet. The Guardian says that 8chan (all of it, as a whole) is a 4chan-style community which has become a hub of the movement, together with a subforum on the social news site Reddit. So no, the quote doesn't claim that "8chan is a subforum of Reddit," and if The Guardian describes 8chan as a hub for the movement, it naturally follows that its constituent components are as well. (Basic English meaning.) Your disagreement with The Guardian's conclusion is interesting, but not relevant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's take it even slower... removing the explanation gets the original sentence. The swatting incident, the second this week linked with Gamergate, was co-ordinated on the “baphomet” subforum of the 8chan image board along with a subforum on the social news site Reddit. The inserted section describes 8chan, thus: the 8chan image board, a 4chan-style community which has become a hub of the movement. Seperated, as it is done by the commas, its clear that the hub of the movement comment is directed at 8chan, NOT baphomet. But just because 8chan is a "hub of the movement" does not explicitly link EVERYTHING of 8chan with GG. That's a leap that you are making, not the reliable source. Its the exact same leap to say that "Reddit has been a hub of the movement" which would be true, and then finding a random subreddit (let's say, ShitRedditSays), which I think we can agree is not a part of GG, and then attributing something ShitRedditSays does to GG. The leap in logic is YOURS, not the reliable sources. Ries42 (talk) 21:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Further, by your logic, all of the "Anti-Gamergate" subreddits are also part of Gamergate. All the evils of the world are part of Gamergate by that logic. That is an interesting way to look at things. Ries42 (talk) 21:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The trouble with this argument is that it seems to be predicated on the idea that there is this body of people called Gamergate, and that you can divide up parts of the internet as "Gamergate" and "not Gamergate." As our article explains, it's not like that. If certain dark corners of the internet produce a certain kind of disgusting activity against perceived "enemies" of Gamergate (that is, anyone who has ever criticised such disgusting activities) then that activity is treated as part of Gamergate by a large proportion of reliable sources.

We should always make sure we don't mislead the reader into the belief that there is a coordinated campaign; as far as we can tell, there isn't. To all, appearances, it's mostly just a heap of people doing disgusting things to their victims and pretending the victims deserve it because of ethics in gaming journalism or something. We should just be upfront about the fact that attribution in these circumstances is necessarily loose. --TS 21:42, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not true. There is organization among those that claim to be challenging the ethics - it is weak and very unstructured with no leadership, but there are hubs of discussions where they talk about things (KIA, 4chan, 8chan), and they have tried to organize wikis and the like. What is the problem is that because of the lack of structure, the only way they identify themselves to the rest of the world is via the GG hashtag which is very easy to hijack, or to claim activity under without being part of the movement. (Both of these points are sourced in the article already). The doxxing issues are coming from boards that the GG supporters do not claim as their own and have been tracked to groups that operate primarily on the principle of screwing up things for others; as the Gawker article I linked above noted, the baphomet board is a board that wants to continue any type of attack or the like regardless of the cause. And because GG has not established a structure or a way to identify themselves, it is very easy for groups like baphomet to go after an anti-GG critic and have it appear as the actions of a proGG. The Guardian article carefully avoids blaming the swat against GG supporters, but instead properly from the baphomet board, and we have to do. (This is not to say there is a chance of people playing both sides of the game, but no one had made that claim yett) It's clear a few sources like the Guardian and Gawker are recognizing baphomet has very unclear ties with GG being co-habitating the social hubs that talk about GG. --MASEM (t) 21:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

while some pie in the sky gg may want that to be the truth, it isnt. because GG has refused to have any type of structure, they are in no position claim or disclaim anything. we follow what the reliable sources indicate is gg related. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:00, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

And the sources say exactly what I said, except for what the origins of the baphomet board is, which no one has reported on, yet, but is something we should keep in mind to see if this is reported elsewhere. But the sources are clear to keep a separation between the GG movement and baphomet, the only commonalities being cohabiting the same forum sites, and that the doxxing have been against critics of the GG movement. --MASEM (t) 22:03, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, you are operating under the misguided perception that there is some true "gamergate" that is not harassment. that is just not so. being simply an anonymous posting drama board, anything done under the name of gg IS gamergate. they cannot "Its not GG" because the only identification of what is GG is someone claiming to be GG. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

No, not every troll on the internet is "gamergate." Not every "swatting" is gamergate. The guardian article isn't even about a gamergate "swatting." It show as picture of what a swat team looks like. It goes into detail about what a swat team did in Italy (though it related to a "swatting"). In reality there is a troll that called the police and 5 officers total eventually responded. No swat. No pictures. No confirmation of the caller. Same in in Portland. The only claims to gamergate are by those people insightful enough to call the police and let them know that the call that will be made about them is false. The police haven't made the claim it is gamergate or who perpetrated the call. The only reliable information is that a call was made and SWAT was NOT sent. --DHeyward (talk) 22:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

(EC) Absolutely wrong. We have sources that have pointed to GG supporters that are against harassment and as such as absolutely cannot ever characters the movement as only being harassment. We as a neutral source cannot work off the theory that anything about GG is harassment. To say that GG is only about harassment is prejudgmental and factually wrong, and introducing a POV not supported by sources. That there's a history of harassment around GG is not in question, but we have to say neutral and work from the legitimacy of GG being about ethics. --MASEM (t) 22:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

{{citation needed}} per The Union A minority also retorts to anonymous attacks against critics and dissenters through Online Stalking,Misplaced Pages vandalism and threats of violence. Therefore not all gamergate is harassment. Avono (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are some who say "I am GG and I want to talk about ethics, like how game reviews should be objective and not talk about how women are portrayed, just how fun they are". But they have no standing to say "That person who is SWATTING and pushing vile vile harassment and sending terrorist threats to universities is not gamergate." with no actual organization and no way to tell if the anonymous "ethics gg" is or is not the "SWAT gg" its up to the reliable sources to identify what in fact IS a gg, and they have spoken - the SWATTING harassers are in. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong. The press has not attached the current swatting attacks to GG supporters in any way, only that they share social boards, which is far from being a proven fact. We must not be prejudgemental towards GG and cannot imply that GG is behind the swatting when sources have not done that either - yes, we have to mention the swatting in light of being anti-GG people, and I expect readers will come to their own conclusion that "oh, it's likely GG supporters behind it", we can't stop that from happening, but we cannot make that connection for them when none of the press sources do. And no, we cannot overlook the reliable sources that cite the GG supports in regards to ethics just because of the harassment. They get a legitimately fair treatment per NPOV and FRINGE, and failure to consider that means we are not neutral. We have to report on their side fairly (And the second most-recent Guardian article actually does spend most of their time describing their concerns in a legitimate light). --MASEM (t) 23:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure what press you are looking at, but Gamergate hits new low with attempts to send Swat teams to critics seems to attach the current swatting attacks to GG supporters in a very direct way.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, WP has long discounted headlines of articles as not part of a WP:RS source, since usually it is a different writer/editor that writes those, for maximum eye-catchiness, and thus not representative of the content of the article. The article does not say anything to that extent, that's what we go by. --MASEM (t) 04:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's important not to forget that this article is about the controversy surrounding gamergate, not the movement itself. If critics of gamergate are being harassed by an online forum, that is relevant because it is an aspect of that controversy. Ultimately, it matters not to whom we can attribute that harassment, what matters is that someone who is known for being opposed to the movement has been attacked. That's what has made this a controversy- that someone who speaks in opposition to the movement has something to fear. Whether its from gamergate or someone else doesn't actually matter, they're being harassed because of gamergate- if gamergate didn't exist, they likely would not be harassed. SinglePurposePartier (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Arguably, in the first few months of this, it was about the "controversy" per the original AFD; the movement itself had little notability. But I would actually call that at this point months out, the issue is about "the movement" - including anyone that claims association with it, including the harassment done in the name of GG and related issues like this doxxing stuff (against antiGG). It wouldn't change the weight of the article (it is a controversy about what the GG movement has - purposely or inadvertently - created) but if you do a google hits check, "gamergate movement" now has about 25% more hits than "gamergate controversy". However, that's not enough to force a name flip, but it is something to consider here. --MASEM (t) 22:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Careful Masem, talk like that is likely to get you labeled a conspiracy theorist (sarcasm) <3 Ries42 (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

arguably, they still all preface with "so-called" or use "movement" in scare quotes or go into detail about how its not really a movement as such but there really isnt a word for a bunch of people using the same hashtag. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

From what I have read in the various reliable sources covering this matter, the vast majority do not suggest GamerGate is to blame and thus neither should we. Aside from a few clickbaity headlines, they tend to just say x was a critic of GamerGate and that 8chan has a GamerGate discussion board on it. In the case of Lynn, the Verge explicitly stated that it was likely a troll and numerous sources noted that the responsible party stated he did not support GamerGate. Here the only claim that GamerGate was to blame was in a headline.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:00, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk like what, Ries? I think Masem hit the nail on the head: "it is a controversy about what the GG movement has - purposely or inadvertently - created". Even if it was inadvertent, this is the environment that gamergate has created. That is what the reliable sources are in agreement about. There's nothing conspiratorial about that. SinglePurposePartier (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Really? I responded with a sarcastic (I even labeled it as such in the post) comment about the sometimes point-y-ness of this talk page to be tongue in cheek and you... make an actual point-y comment directed at me? Think about that for a moment. I fully understand what this article is and isn't. I'd appreciate it if you don't lecture or make aspirations directly at me as your post does. I agreed with Masem's sentiment... that this article is currently one thing, but we shouldn't be so blind as not to realize it's current focus and organization may have shifted over time, and we should be aware of this shift should it prove necessary to make adjustments. Ries42 (talk) 13:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I must not have been clear in my point. It doesn't matter whether it's gamergate doing this bit of harassment or if it's J. Edgar Hoover (in fairness, it very well could be J. Edgar Hoover). The fact is that someone who has been critical of gamergate was harassed, and that is notable with regard to the gamergate controversy. That's ultimately the case with the women at the center of this controversey who have been targeted- they were critical of gamergate and then they were harassed. Maybe we shouldn't attribute this bit of harassment to gamergate, but to pretend it didn't happen seems baffling to me. Even if it wasn't gamergate doing the harassment, it is very clearly a story related to gamergate- so the reliable sources say. Ultimately, our article, if I'm reading it correctly, is about the controversy surrounding the gamergate movement. That is what this community has decided, for better or worse- it is not a biographical article about the movement itself. If any editors disagree with that consensus, there's a place to have that conversation - Masem's points in reply to me, while I don't agree, are a great good faith way of starting that conversation - but as the article stands now, anything that happens in relationship to gamergate is able to be included. That the harassment leveled against critics of gamergate has escalated to this level would seem to be worthy of inclusion in the article to me. SinglePurposePartier (talk) 03:55, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Two things have developed today: First this WA Post article that has a history of 8chan including as a haven for people to launch attacks in the name of GG after 4chan clamped down on it, and secondly, I've heard but can't find an RS at the moment that Caitlin Dewey, the author of that, has been doxxed and/or swatted in response to that article. --MASEM (t) 04:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

We've not always seen eye to eye, but I think your edits create a very well-written and fair accounting of the situation. Well done. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:00, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

State they are concerned about ethics in the lede

Should stay in the lede per our sources and the Debate over ethics allegations section. Per our sources, often when the supporters say they are concerned about ethical issues, what they're talking about aren't actually ethical issues. — Strongjam (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Ethics in journalism and misogynistic attacks are not mutually exclusive. Using the term "state they are" versus "are" is simply not supportable as NPOV representation. Both are covered. We don't couch beliefs in scare quotes or weasel words and it's why we don't use such equivocal language to describe the harassment. There is no reason to doubt that many gamergate supporters are concerned about ethics in gaming journalism and is a sourcable and true statement. It takes nothing away from harassment, misogyny or sexism. There are no sources that support "Many gamergaters state X but they really don't believe it." It's a false dichotomy and is language that is to be avoided. --DHeyward (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Per our sources:

• The heart of their complaints had less to do with the ethics of how mainstream gaming sites were reporting, but what they were reporting.
• acutely aware of their own negative image, members redirected the movement's public-facing purpose to be about ethics in game journalism — an agenda that was literally set after journalists reacted to a week of swatting, rape and death threats directed towards both men and women in the industry
• While many claimed this movement was about calling out ethical lapses in videogame journalism, I was astounded and appalled by the misogynistic and threatening nature of some posts

I'm sure there's more if you want to go digging. — Strongjam (talk) 22:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be worth explaining what they mean by 'ethics', although I would worry that that could go into too much detail in the lead or give one particular interpretation too much weight. In general, though, the article makes it clear that the ethics issues are intimately connected to the culture war issues (in that the members of GamerGate seem to, generally, believe that their ideological and cultural opponents have established a vast media conspiracy in order to produce and get people to consume media in line with their views, and to suppress any sort of news coverage that threatens this conspiracy.) Obviously that is a fairly WP:FRINGE belief, but I feel, somewhat, as if just saying "ethics" is potentially misleading, since it whitewashes just how out-there much of the underlying thinking here really is. --Aquillion (talk) 23:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The ethics are about more than the culture war issues, according to proponents. The ethics issue didn't just arise with Quinn, it was a long-standing complaint in gamer circles that got co-opted in a sense by this broader cultural broadside. This is why we need better sources for this article, since so much of it provides the appearance of this being a recent complaint. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

More specifically, we, as a neutral work, have to consider what has been reported about the GG's concerns in reliable sources as fully legitimate, and not take the attitude that the press has done that GG is not legit. That the press concerns the movement illegitimate will be a significant portion of the article, no doubt, but when we are describing what GG wants, we cannot play the game of says "yeah, that's what they say but we really know what they are going for" that some of the current language implicates (eg the changes in the article lede today). We are not to try to judge the group's motives either way in WP's voice, though certainly can express the strong negative complaints from others as part of criticism of the group. --MASEM (t) 23:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

No. This is a misconception and a misreading of policy. There is no requirement that we consider anything "fully legitimate" just because someone says it. Misplaced Pages is based on what reliable sources say, and if reliable sources overwhelmingly and essentially unanimously say something, Misplaced Pages will present that point of view as predominant. We can and should say that some people believe otherwise, but the very point of the due weight, balancing aspects and equal validity sections of the NPOV policy is to refute the idea that Misplaced Pages has to present anyone and everyone's ideas as "fully legitimate." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

And the reliable sources overwhelmingly say that gamergate supporters are concerned with ethics in journalism and also say that the concern has been overshadowed by the harassment of quinn, wu, et al. They do NOT say that gamergate supporters are not concerned with ethics in journalism or that the view by most gamergate supporters was false or insincere. --DHeyward (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, no, the reliable sources routinely say that the ethics claims are false and are largely a facade for culture-warring against feminists and others who are interested in the diversification of video gaming culture. Strongjam above presented a number of those sources, and there are literally dozens more if you want them. Actual experts in media ethics have examined the claims, refuted them and described the movement not as an "ethics" movement but as a culture war. Plainly and specifically expressed in one of the most respected media criticism publications in America, the Columbia Journalism Review: At core, the movement is a classic culture war. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Understanding that Gjoni was not a gamer and that the gamer community jumped all over the relationship between an indie game developer and a journalist was just the latest in the social justice aspects of gaming. There are many female mainstream gaming executives simply not involved that are much more notable, accomplished and influential than indies likw Quinn and Wu. Sarkeesian has been around a lot longer than Gjoni's post. This isn't new and "Gamergate" is just the latest name for a long standing feud. If we really dig, we'd find transgender vs. radical feminist, indie vs. large commercial gaming companies, modern feminist vs. libertarian feminist, commercial vs. "free" software, etc, etc. The expectation that the press is neutral w.r.t. these issues with full disclosure is not new. --DHeyward (talk) 00:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It is required to be neutral and write about GG in a legitimate light with as little as we can from reliable sources. That's the definition of neutrality, that's what WP:IMPARTIAL gives, that's what WP:FRINGE says to do. We have to document without assumption of right or wrongdoing. We have plenty of sources that will be critical of GG and call out what they think is illegitimate, that's fine, but that's just opinion and cannot be presented as fact. --MASEM (t) 01:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec) It is synthesis to construct what most gamergater supporters are concerned with by a sampling of discussion boards. The WP article discusses the antics of the discussion forums. That in no way shapes it as mutually exclusive from supporters views about ethics in journalism. Gjoni named Grayson because he was a journalist. NotYourShield arose from it, etc, etc. It takes nothing away from the outrageous behavior and isn't used an excuse. There are no named misogynists yet we still have large sections on misogyny. There are named individuals that are concerned with gaming journalism ethics. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive and I've yet to see any proof that the concern about ethics is not widely held. WP:WEASEL, scare quotes, words to watch and other guidelines explicitly call out such language as unnecessary and an NPOV problem. --DHeyward (talk) 00:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis is what our sources are supposed to do. As the majority viewpoint of our sources are that gamergate supporters say it's about ethics in journalism, but that their issues aren't actually about ethics then the article should reflect that per WP:NPOV. Scare quotes doesn't come into it as there is no expression of doubt. "GG supporters supposedly are concerned about ethics" would be scare qoutes, and weasel is fine in the lede as long as its covered in the article. Indeed, if it wasn't then we should remove it entirely from the lede. — Strongjam (talk) 00:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not even weasel to have "GG say but ethics" - thats basic WP:SAID. Proclaiming that "GG are about ethics " is the unalowable WP:OR as the multiple reliable sources state otherwise. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

−

Yes, this. The key thing to understand is that our description of GamerGate -- even what GamerGate wants, insofar as that can be characterized when it comes to a disparate, leaderless group -- has to come from reliable sources. Masem said, above, that we have to take what has been "reported about the GG's concerns in reliable sources as fully legitimate"; the thing is, we are doing this; that includes taking reliable sources that say "GamerGate's concerns are mostly about defeating Social Justice Warriors by any means necessary, and really have nothing to do with ethics beyond a vague belief that there is a vast unethical Social Justice Conspiracy that must be defeated", we have to take that seriously. And that (or parts of that) are what the vast majority of reliable sources say! When The Columbia Journalism Review (and many other reliable sources) say that GamerGate is not actually about ethics -- that its ethics concerns are centered around a conspiracy theory intended to provide support for their ongoing culture war -- that is something we must report. I would add to this that the characterization of their ethical concerns as a conspiracy theory used in support of their long-running culture war actually does not contradict most of what the sources we have that claim to be speaking for GamerGate say -- most of those sources, at least the ones we have in the article, seem to agree that the ethics issues are fundamentally about fighting against a conspiracy as part of a long-running culture war. They would just describe it not as a "conspiracy theory" but as a "conspiracy fact"; they believe that their really is a vast unethical "social justice conspiracy" or somesuch that must be defeated. This means that we can most accurately cover the ethical concerns by placing them in the context of that culture war; as far as I can tell, no reliable commentators on any side of the debate are now claiming that it exists outside that context. --Aquillion (talk) 02:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, that's clearly an opinion, that they feel that GG is not really about ethics. We no way can report that as fact. It is a fact that many sources believe that GG is not about ethics - that point can be made for certain, but not in WP's voice. Facts do not come from common public opinion. --MASEM (t) 02:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

When it comes to the better sources, it is not merely an opinion; it is a detailed analysis by reputable sources with a strong reputation for fact-checking and a broadly-trusted ability to interpret and explain cultural phenomenon like these. It is an opinion in the sense that any expert who writes about anything is ultimately only giving their opinion, no matter how well-backed and well-researched that opinion might be; but it is one of sufficient strength and authority -- and with a sufficiently broad consensus -- that we can report it as fact; it is not an opinion in the sense that we use that word in our policies. Facts absolutely do not come from popular opinion, yes; but (at least when it comes to the facts we report in our voice as an encyclopedia) they do come from a consensus among reliable sources, and that is what we have here. They could be wrong; ultimately, even the most reliable journalist or scientist or expert has to use their opinion to interpret results, after all. But as an encyclopedia, we can only follow the consensus among reliable sources. Our articles on other topics do not say "Scientists believe evolution works like this..." or "Historians and political scientists say that America is a representative democracy...", even though there are surely people who would disagree with those statements, and even though you could reasonably say that ultimately it is just the opinions of those people. Instead, we survey the reliable sources and, when there seems to be universal or near-universal agreement on some point, we report it as fact. Beyond that, as I mentioned in my edit above (which edit-conflicted with your reply, sorry!), I am not convinced that there is as much of a conflict between two sides here as people are saying. At this point the vast majority of sources, regardless of what perspective they say they're writing from, seem to agree that the ethics concerns are fundamentally about cultural warfare in the sense of fighting an (alleged or actual) unethical conspiracy by what they view as their ideological and cultural opponents. --Aquillion (talk) 02:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Your examples are scientific and institutional, this is an article about a group of people. You can't say that a group of people are "near-universally" anything as fact when there are sources that dispute the claims of the others. Weedwacker (talk) 02:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course we can; that's what "near-universally" means -- almost every source agrees on this, but there are a few who do not. Hence, it is nearly universal. That accurately reflects what the rest of the article says, which is what Misplaced Pages leads are intended to do. Simply having a few sources that dispute a nearly-universal consensus doesn't change the fact that it's nearly-universal. --Aquillion (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The only source that would be considered an expert or close to academic in this whole swath of articles is the CRJ, and even then he was only looking at the media treatment of the situation, not as a social analysis of GG. Not unreliable in discussing this, but far from something akin to a peer-reviewed paper or a court of law to establish their statements about GG as fact. Certainly, in time, we can expect actual studies on this matter (the pieces on DIRGA, for example, promise years of academic analysis of why GG came to be), and perhaps in time, it might be concluded that based on a survey of the people that claim to be GG supporters they were less interested in ethics and more interested in harassment, at which point we can talk to it as a fact. But at this point, the statement that "GG is not about ethics" is a clearly contentious statement, and while the popular opinion is that is it true, we cannot act like it is, but instead describe the predominate view that it is true. We don't call the Westboro church a hate group, but reflect that most everyone else considered them that while noting what they consider themselves as. We don't call ISIS evil but reflect that they are broadly considered that way while describing what they have stated as their beliefs/approach without judgement. That's the same manner we are required to take here and trying to do anything to make GG look illegitate in WP's voice without established facts towards saying it is illegitimate is against NPOV. It is very easily to slip into this mode considered that GG is generally strongly disliked by most everyone but we are still a impartial encyclopedia and have to put that emotion behind us and not slip into this mode. --MASEM (t) 02:49, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

If GamerGate was a formal organization with recognized leaders and policies, like the others you mentioned, we could rely on those to summarize its goals and beliefs; for instance, we can rely on the WBC to say that they are anti-gay. GamerGate, however, is not an unified organization, but a controversy that has involved a large number of people demanding different (and sometimes contradictory) things for different (and sometimes contradictory) reasons. This confusion has led many reliable sources to do something they wouldn't usually do -- devoting large amounts of time and effort to analyzing and describing the beliefs behind it. As an encyclopedia, we must rely on this analysis if we are to say anything concrete at all; and we have many sources that have done this -- not just the CBJ, but the New York Times, NPR, Time, and so on, throughout the entire article. They have nearly universally come back saying that GamerGate, as a movement, does not particularly care about ethics except as part of a war to advance a particular cultural agenda. In fact, in the context Misplaced Pages uses to judge facts, I would take it a step beyond near-universal and dispute your assertion that their conclusion is "clearly controversial"; as I said above, I believe that literally all our reliable, non-opinion sources that discuss the ethics issues in any depth -- that is, every one we can rely on for statements of fact -- agrees in some form with the broad statement that GamerGate's primary goal is to wage cultural warfare against its ideological opponents, and that its concern about ethics is primarily restricted to a belief that those ideological enemies have formed an unethical conspiracy. Some of the sources that advance this argument most stridently, in fact, are the ones that describe themselves as agreeing with GamerGate. Simply feeling that it's controversial yourself -- or feeling that there are people on message-boards and blogs who would disagree -- does not render it controversial. In order to be controversial for NPOV purposes, a fact must be contested by other reliable sources (that is, ones that are credible for statements of fact). In this case it simply isn't; it's just a fact which we have to report in the narrative voice. I can understand your concern about emotions, since certainly the entire controversy has made some people very emotional, but the solution to a situation as wrought with emotional tension as this is to focus on reliable sources and to try and avoid substituting our judgment for theirs; in this case, going on from the perspective of reliable sources, I don't think it's controversial at all to describe GamerGate's goals and ethical concerns as being, fundamentally, about a belief that their ideological or cultural opponents are part of a vast unethical conspiracy. Does everyone in GamerGate think that? Is everyone in the movement driven by those beliefs? Of course not. But I think that, going by our sources, it is simply uncontroversial fact that that is what drives the movement as a whole. Obviously in such an emotionally-wrought topic there will always be some people who will get upset at any statement of fact (no matter how simple, no matter how clearly-universal it is, no matter how carefully we qualify it or source it to reliable sources.) But we still have an obligation to report facts, when determined by reliable sources, as facts, and not hedge and describe them as controversial opinions. --Aquillion (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, it's not a dichotomy. "Group A likes meat. Group A is largely known for eating cheese" doesn't mean we say "Group A says they like meat but group A really eats a lot of cheese." I don't really care how many sources say they eat cheese. This is the scenario we have here. Gamergate supporters are concerned with journalism ethics. It doesn't matter how many times people also say misogynistic things on forums. The first thing most reliable sources say is that the hashtag is not really a movement as it's leaderless without a platform. One of its most notable group action is getting Intel adverts pulled from a game review journal. They didn't do that with hate filled screeds and threats written to female Intel employees. This is why journalism ethics is considered the common and binding force of the hashtag. It also has nothing to do with the overshadowing threats and doxing that also occurred. As a neutral observer of reliable sources, we note both as both are true and relevant and sourced according to weight. More importantly there are people associated with the hashtag and all of the named persons associate with the ethics and transparency in journalism aspect and portraying that in any way as insincere or that they really support misogynist and sexist attacks on women is a false light portrayal. It is a synthesis of POV to juxtapose pieces against each other as if both can't be true. --DHeyward (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

When the sources say "Group A says they like meat but group A really eats a lot of cheese." thats what we say. And that is what the sources say: "Some Gamergaters claim to be about 'ethics' but they are actually about harassment and opposition to "social justice warriors" and women and anyone who doesnt by into their 'but ethics'" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not how Misplaced Pages sourcing works. We can say those source say that, but if it is clearly not an established fact (popular public opinion is not fact), we cannot say it in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 05:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course it is. we follow the reliable sources in proportion to the manner the views are held in those sources without our personal interpretation to make up for the poor poor gamergaters not being given any credence by any of the sources because we dont get to be their white knights to make up for the fact that an unorganized mob with no idea of what ethics actually is has been dismissed as complete nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, you are missing several factors of NPOV, specifically IMPARTIAL and SUBJECTIVE, that we have to include as well. Misplaced Pages cannot in any way attack or make any direct negative claims about GG if we are to be neutral, even if the press has opted to do so. We will report the press's opinions as that is the more predominate view per UNDUE/WEIGHT, no question, but we cannot state opinions as fact without ascertaining who stated that opinion. We have to write in a clinically impartial tone, and that means even when reporting what is said as a popular opinion by the press and attributing to them, we cannot glorify or extenuate the wording to even look like we are agreeing with that view or disagreeing with the GG view. We're not trying to make GG look good (the sources don't even go there save for a minority, so we can't go there), but we also cannot attack them in an article on WP, even in a subtle language manner, even if that's the popular opinion of the press - we don't do it anywhere else on WP, we aren't going to start here. --MASEM (t) 06:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Masem, for the umpteen thousandth time, it is not violative of "IMPARTIAL" or "SUBJECTIVE" to report that reliable sources say Gamergate has nothing to do with journalism ethics and is a culture war against diversification of gaming. We do not present it as a fact, but we do present it as the overwhelmingly-dominant mainstream view of the movement in mainstream reliable sources, as per policy which expressly states that Misplaced Pages gives credence to viewpoints in proportion to the credence given them in mainstream reliable sources. We are required to describe Gamergate's small minority viewpoint in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world. The beliefs of the greater world are accorded more space and prominence in an encyclopedia than the beliefs of a small fringe minority. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You're missing the point again. Yes, it is not a violation of any policy to say "The majority of media have claimed GG has nothing to do with ethics." That's a fact there's no doubt to. But it is a violation of policy to try to word that approach when talking about GG's concerns which we have to treat legitimately. For example, if the wording was "Though GG claims it is about ethics, the majority of media says it has nothing do with ethics" is not an impartial statement, as it puts weight on the anti-GG side as being "right" (they're only majority view, but that doesn't make them "right"). that's the language that is going on here that has to be stopped to stay within policy. --MASEM (t) 06:53, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You've worded it wrong. There's no need for the flipped juxtaposition. Rather, we should state "The Gamergate movement is widely viewed as a culture war against women and diversity in gaming. The movement's supporters say they are interested in ethics in gaming journalism." That's the appropriate wording and weight — the primary mainstream view of the movement is presented first, followed by what supporters argue it is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, we don't do that anywhere else on WP; We don't call Westboro a hate group off the bat, but instead describe the congregation legitimately before going into the widely popular criticism of the church as a hate group. We have to treat the GG movement as 100% legitimate movement, letting the press sources give us the basis to express the popular critical stance that it is not, otherwise, we are not being impartial and instead picking the winner, which WP cannot do. --MASEM (t) 07:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you reading the same article I'm reading? Because I don't think you've read our article on the Westboro Baptist Church — it literally does what you're saying it doesn't do. The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American unaffiliated Baptist church known for its extreme ideologies, especially those against gay people. That specifically presents a fact (that it is a Baptist church) followed by the predominant mainstream view of the WBC's ideologies in the very first sentence — that the group holds views which are "extreme" and "against gay people." The very next sentence — The church is widely described as a hate group and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. further reinforces the mainstream viewpoint. We don't discuss the church's views of its own viewpoints until much later in the article. A comparable first two sentences on Gamergate would be The Gamergate movement is an American social movement known for waging a culture war against the diversification of video gaming culture. The movement is widely described as sexist and misogynist. If that's the first two sentences you want about Gamergate, sounds good to me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because we are stating their legitimacy in the first sentence appropriately as a lede (to be concise). The body of the article re-enforces this. Here, we've agreed that ultimately GG is about sexism of one form or another hence appropriate for the lead, and then we have to describe who are involved (the GG supporters) before getting into the criticism of it. Irregardless, notice that the article legitimately covers the church, their views, their activities (including factual lawsuits against it), and only after all that gets into the opinionated criticism against it. Of course, ledes are different from bodies, they have to be concise and cover the situation as briefly as possible. However, the problem is that we don't have a lot of long-term views to be able to determine if we should call a culture war as the primary situation yet. The best we can say is that it is a controversy centering around sexism (the what and when), and then summarize the who, how, and why. --MASEM (t) 07:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

And if we had an article on "The Gamergate movement" then it would be appropriate to put their activities and views first in the body. We don't, however — largely because, as Aquillion notes, Gamergate is essentially an inscrutable anonymous mob of trolls, and there's nothing "there" to write about. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Arguable, this is a controversy about actions and behavior of the movement (or at least those attaching themselves to the #GG hashtag), so who the movement is is very important and for all purposes the initiators of the conflict and thus should be discussed first, where possible. In an impartial article about the controversy (I suggested this before when TS was talking about moving the draft over most recently), one of the first things we would write would be who was involved. It is actually much easier and more neutral to say that there was a group of ppl using the #GG hashtag to push ethics, but at nearly the same time, there was a sudden outbreak of harassment attacks against a number of people (describing the whole shebang of the accusations, the females that were harassed, etc.). After explaining that history (all factual so far) we explain who the #GG supporters are and what they sought and the little else we can reliably source about their legitimate actions, and then go into the counter arguments - the more predominate view - of why the movement's flawed (no organization, being tied to a hijacked tag, etc.), why the ethics arguments may be bunk, and the issues with harassment, sexism and misogyny, and finally ending on describing changes that have resulted from the controversy (like intel's $300m). Same information, same weight, but putting it in the order that meets other articles on controversial groups and targets (which nearly always puts the critical reaction section at the end). --MASEM (t) 07:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

no, there is nothing in policy or good writing that says the troll's perspective that everyone has dismissed as utterly inane at best or transparent cover to attempt to hide or justify the harassment should be covered first or ever be given any more than trivial passing coverage. No one cares about "games reviews should be ethical by only presenting object reviews like is it fun" . no one . and covering it first is inappropriate per WP:STRUCTURE / WP:UNDUE - giving undue prominence to trivial aspect of the subject of the article - the controversy of the vile vile harassment and the underlying culture war the harassment exposed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:12, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

We have to, as an impartial neutral source, assuming their claims are legitimate. We have to write about them with respect. We cannot think of them as "trolls" - we have the press's opinions to fill that in, but we are never going to write a neutral article if attitudes start from that point, and it is a blatant NPOV to think of them like that even on that talk page. One can have their personal feelings on the matter, but those cannot come in to constructive WP editing and it can be a COI to enter into entering with that stance. --MASEM (t) 15:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely NOT. We do not "assume" something that the reliable sources have determined to be ludicrous, false or dismissed as trivial. Just drop it. your whiteknighting for the GG trolls has gone beyond wikilawyering to completely tendentious to absolutely WP:COMPETENCE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:52, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

My issue with just saying "They are concerned about ethics in gaming journalism" is that per our sources what is often meant by "ethics in gaming journalism" is not what most of our readers would consider ethical issues. There is no neutrality issue in being clear about that in the lede. Indeed, it's a NPOV issue to not be clear, otherwise we may leave the reader with a misunderstanding of what is meant when they say ethics but really mean what the reader would consider something else. — Strongjam (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

So instead of the lede having a statement of the majority of commentator views on the ethics, you changed it to an ambigious "commenters say it" which can be interpreted as either 'all' or 'some'. I'm in full agreement that most commentators dismiss the ethics claims but it misrepresents the sources to say the only disagreeing source is Milo Yiannopoulos or that all commentators dismiss them. Weedwacker (talk) 05:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Explanation of Tony Sidaway's revert of an edit by Weedwacker

In this edit weedwacker (talk · contribs) removes from the lede the statement that "commentators have near-universally dismissed the concerns has focused on as being trivial or unrelated to ethics".

That statement is simply a summary of the section called "Debate over ethics allegations." Removing that text lessens the correspondence between the article body and the lede in a serious way.

That is why I restored the text to the lede by reverting the edit. --TS 02:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate you explaining your reasoning. I mainly took issue with the insertion of the term "near-universally" so I reworded it while leaving the importance of the sentence. I probably shouldn't have just reverted the first time around. "Near-universal" is a phrase that implies almost nobody ever disagreeing with the statement, which isn't true. Just because the number of sources disagreeing with that are a minority does not mean they are going against a universal agreement. Weedwacker (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The vast majority of reliable sources (which we use to draw information about public opinion) state that gamergate is near-universally publicly derided. I don't think 'most' accurately conveys what the reliable sources have said- perhaps there's a stronger word to use than 'most' that would be more appropriate in this case? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a statement about the ethical concerns, not about whether the movement is publicly derided. 'a majority of commentators' work better for you? 'Near-universally' is an opinion about the weight that marginalizes sources that don't agree with that statement to the point that it makes them seem non-existent. It has no place in the lede stating that ethical concerns are near-universally dismissed in an article that addresses ethical policy changes by a number of websites as a result of the controversy. Weedwacker (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You've got me: I should have said "the concerns Gamergate has focused on have been near-universally publicly derided.", as I meant to in the context of the discussion. Do we have the number on the reliable sources which indicate one way or another that these concerns are trivial or unrelated to ethics, or which indicate these concerns are non-trivial or related to ethics? Would this reflect a majority/minority situation (which could be a small difference in opinion), or should we say something like 'vast majority of commentators' (a large difference in opinion regarding these concerns)? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I think use of the term "universally" should be barred on all of Misplaced Pages, because my experience has been that never is something universal and any use of that term is typically indicative of agenda-driven editing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to write an essay on the use of the word 'universally'? PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not one to agree with crusades to eliminate words, but I do agree that it's a bad word for an encyclopedia unless you're actually talking about the universe. Weedwacker (talk) 07:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Explanation of a revert of Masem's edit

Masem's edit here is unacceptable because it rejects well-sourced and established facts — that Gamergate is responsible for harassment of people including Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu and others. Pretending that this all might be some coincidence ("simultaneously") is simply not supported. This is not a negotiable point or an opinion, it is a fact and the article will present it as such. Moreover, the debate is not just "over social media," it's on the front page of The New York Times and on MSNBC. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:15, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no evidence that those that support GG are the same people that harassed others. Period. There's even sources that say that there are at least some disparate groups (eg the GG conservatives that are trying to stop harassment). The only thing that is factually common - and the reason we have to bring up social media - is that the two groups used the same hashtag of #Gamergate - that's hashtag hijacking at its finest (again, a point commented on by sources that have told the GG conservative to move off the #Gamergate hashtag if they want to be taken seriously by the press). It is certainly possible that one or more "GG Supporters" are also harassers, but we have no evidence of any specific case, and certainly not the group as a whole. --MASEM (t) 07:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

We aren't looking for "evidence," Masem — that's not what we do as Misplaced Pages editors, and you've been around here long enough to know that. You are suggesting and demanding original research, which categorically violates policy. Reliable sources repeatedly state that elements within the movement are largely responsible for the harassment, and this conclusion is effectively undisputed among the mainstream reliable sources. We republish what reliable sources say. Period. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes we require evidence. That's WP:V - we require sourcable evidence to make a statement not said in reliable sources. It is OR to say that the entire GG movement is involved in the harassment and in fact counter to the sources. And no, the most reliable sources do not attribute the harassment to the movement, but to people using the GG hashtag. That's the key factor here. We have to be aware there are real people out there that are supporters of GG but have no involvement in the harassment, and we are choising language and presuming opinions as fact that is attacking them. We cannot do that. --MASEM (t) 07:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking over our sourcing in the history section, I am not sure I not see the distinction you are making; there are numerous sources directly connecting the harassment to GamerGate. Obviously they do not say that all supporters of GamerGate are responsible for harassment (nor does our article), but we need to make the connection clear. That said, now that I've thought about your edit in more detail, I think I see an answer to your concerns; the lead needs to be more specific about the people responsible for those attacks (and, along the same lines, what the attacks were) --Aquillion (talk) 08:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I think Masem's version is more neutral and still reflects the sources and article. "over social media" is accurate for a majority of the activity of, just because it has been covered by the media doesn't mean it's not primarily taking place on social media and has been reported as such. Mentioning the hashtag is a well reported important thing to include. There's a whole huge talk page discussion up above about including ethics concerns, and including it in the same sentence as the harassment fully encompasses how it's described. The 'simultaneously' part is definitely poorly worded but correct. The harassment "leading commentators to doubt the legitimacy of the movement and their motives" is a good inclusion. The reliable sources do say that harassment occurred specifically against the named people. They are described as misogynistic and sexist. Weedwacker (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

• As an encyclopedia, it is not our job to evaluate the evidence, but to report the facts as determined by reliable sources. Your personal opinion that there is insufficient evidence isn't something we can use to build an article. The New York Times, the Washington Post, CS Monitor, the Telegraph, and countless other reliable sources have looked at this and described it in the manner reflected in our lead, nor (so far as I can see) have any reliable non-opinion sources contested this assessment. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not the place to make arguments -- if you want to argue about the evidence, start writing letters to the New York Times and the Washington Post. If you want to talk about what goes into the article, though, you need reliable sources. I'll also point out (since I see this issue a lot on controversial articles) that an article's lead has to reflect its content; if you want to make such a sweeping change to how the article describes the subject, you should start in the text and not the lead, since that is where the sources you are talking about reside. I think you will find it difficult, though, because (as I noted) our description of the connection between the harassment and GamerGate is extensively documented; simply feeling that those sources are wrong (that they didn't look at the evidence right, or that their evidence isn't good enough or things of that nature) is not enough. I would add as a side note that some of the other stuff you're talking about (eg. the existence of GG conservatives seriously trying to stop the harassment) are, as far as I am aware, only attested to in opinion pieces and therefore should never be stated as fact in the article. --07:40, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

New York Times: " The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats, though, seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women." WA Post "No one denies there has been harassment leveled against supporters on both sides of the issue. There's even speculation that the worst comes from Internet trolls who don't feel strongly about either side of the subject but just want to cause trouble. And that doesn't keep the threats from being scary." They are saying what I am saying - you cannot say, factually, the harassment is from "GG Supporters". There's a very strong likelihood a fraction of GG supporters are also harassers (per NYTimes) but it is not 100% of supporters being harassers, and thus we cannot make that impression at all. Even Quinn's acknowledged the hijacking of the hashtag and tried to convince those that want to talk ethics to move to a different tag. Now, we can get into the stubborness that has been mentioned (by Singal, I believe) of GG supporters wanting to stay with the GG hasthag, but that's not the point - not all GG supporters are harassers - the sources are clear on that point. And in terms of the lede, I have previously suggested a more neutral ordering before, and just above, but again, the article properly should flow (without changing sourcing weight) : history (specifically noting that the initial GG calls for ethics and the harassment were simultaneous) , who GG supporters are and their ethics concerns and activities, the criticism against the GG movement (the doubts about ethics, the lack of organization, the use of harassment, the issues of sexism and misogyny), and finally the industry reaction. --MASEM (t) 07:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Nowhere in our article does it say (or imply) that all members of GamerGate are responsible for everything that is done under the hashtag; the section you reworded with your edit said, before you edit it, that "the Gamergate controversy, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture, came to public attention in August 2014 after a spate of sexist and misogynistic attacks on game developers Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu, cultural critic Anita Sarkeesian and others." That description is indisputably factually correct and mirrors what the rest of our article says and the sources it relies on, while reflecting the relevant aspects of the topic in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources -- while it may only be a small portion of people who consider themselves part of GamerGate making the attacks, they are indisputably what GamerGate is famous for and what brought it to the public eye. If I understand your concerns here, then, you are upset that members of GamerGate may find themselves tarred by association with this faction (since we are putting so much attention on it in our lead!) But that is not an encyclopedic concern; we give things weight according to the weight reliable sources accord them, and while we certainly do not (and the sentence you changed certainly did not) imply that everyone in GamerGate is responsible for the attacks, we must make them the focus of the article. If this makes people who associate with GamerGate unhappy, they should focus their ire on the coverage by reliable sources, not on us; we must reflect the weight of that coverage. --Aquillion (talk)

Something can be factually correct and also misleading. You are correct that your quote is factually correct that the controversy came to public attention in August because of the attacks. The implication from the quote, and the article at large, is that it's undeniable that the movement, or supporters of the movement, or however you'd prefer to phrase it, are behind it. Clearly, even the reliable sources don't take such a hard line on it, and the more complicated facts surrounding the controversy support that (thus my repeated call for better sources). Masem's changes are better, but the issue is not just the lead, and is not just one minor thing. Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

it is indisputable that the "controversy" that anyone cares about and has covered is the vile harassment which occurred and the underlying sexism and misogyny /"culture war" that came to light because of the harassment. that is what the sources cover and that is what we cover. there is nothing "misleading". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:07, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect. The harassment is what made the news and became the focus of the hashtag. Describing the "culture war" as only "sexist and misogynistic" is an obtuse view of the various views expressed and it is inaccurate to describe it as such. As an example, if Sarkeesian is representing one aspect of the "culture war" it is not accurate to describe all those that disagree with her as "sexist and misogynistic." --DHeyward (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Removing Columbia Journalism Review Article?

Strongjam, explanation please? Ries42 (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Specifically, I was attempting to add references and content from this article http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/gawker_bullying.php. I was under the impression that Columbia Journalism Review was an impeccably reliable source, and its word is god according to certain editors. Surely giving such a reliable source due weight is appropriate. Ries42 (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I add a comment on your talk page, but I didn't realize this was a new CJR article. I don't think we need that much commentary on the tweets, but I'm fine with it. But as adobe was never a sponsor we can't say the pulled sponsorship, especially in since in the same paragraph we say they weren't an advertiser. — Strongjam (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't realize that Adobe had never been a sponsor. Like I said on my talk page, I'm rather distant from a lot of the "ongoing" issues here. If you wanted to fix that portion of it (that Adobe never was a sponsor) I would agree with that change, but I would hope you would revert yourself and leave the other parts intact, or mostly intact. Ries42 (talk) 13:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The article was from October, correct? Adobe pulled its sponsorship is straight from the article.  ??? --DHeyward (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, hence why I initially put it in, but apparently in some cases the CJR can be wrong. I'm not sure how it works though when we're allowed to contradict a reliable source and when we're not. Ries42 (talk) 21:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Other sources make it clear that Adobe wasn't an advertiser. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Gawker disagrees. --DHeyward (talk) 23:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

That article does not saw Adobe was sponsering Gawker. It said they asked for their logo to be removed from their advertiser page. — Strongjam (talk) 23:05, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

So they pulled their adverts from Gawker. Distinction? Difference? Gawker didn't treat them differently than Intel. Why should we? --DHeyward (talk) 23:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

They did not pull any advertisement from Gawker, they had no advertisements to pull. The asked Gawker to remove their logo from http://advertising.gawker.com/about/, previously they had a partners section. — Strongjam (talk) 01:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Law

@TheRedPenOfDoom: Your latest edit in the draft article effectively accuses Archive.today of violating copyright laws. Is writer Jason Koebler an attorney giving a legal opinion here? Because if he isn't, he isn't qualified to give legal advice. I would believe that before we make such a claim on Misplaced Pages we might actually want to get a legal opinion on whether such an act actually is technically copyright infringement from a respected LEGAL source, not a staff writer at what is as best I can tell, a blog. I would revert your edit, but I'd rather you chime in with whether you agree with this and revert it yourself if you agree that making such a legal charge, even attributed to the writer in question, might be going overboard. The previous entry, that it has drawn criticism is probably enough and doesn't put WP in a legal quandary. Ries42 (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The author quotes lawyers in his article, and the current state of the article does not make accusations against any particular site and the opinion is attributed. I don't see any issue. An argument for WP:UNDUE might be made though. — Strongjam (talk) 01:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

To be clear: Regardless of morality or protest value, this is illegal and not a "fair use" of copyrighted content in the United States. Legal conclusion, no 'lawyer' attribution., When considering copyright, judges look at several things, including the nature of the copied work, how much is taken, what it's taken for, and whether the copying is likely to harm the original creator. Copying part of a work, and sometimes, even the whole thing, is permissible as long as it's for commentary or criticism purposes. But that only applies when the original isn't freely available and the commentary occurs on the page itself (i.e., a newspaper's book review or a video review of a movie). discussing a legal principle (not exactly correct, but with law, very little is completely correct).

First quote from a lawyer: "They want to criticize the original while destroying its market," Ben Depoorter, a law professor at the University of California Hastings College of Law, told me. "It's 100 percent OK to destroy the market for the original, but not by copying it entirely." Doesn't exactly come to a legal conclusion based on a specific set of facts. More like trying to state a relatively general legal principle.

Second quote from a lawyer Richard Stim, a copyright and intellectual property blogger, told me that "arguably (and in a bizarre way) they are commenting on the content by removing the ads, but I don't think that's going to justify fair use either." Makes a legal statement stating that, effectively, what archive today may not be illegal under copyright law. Doesn't come to a direct conclusion, but basically hedges that its possible its completely legal.

Paraphrase of a third lawyer Daniel Nazer, an attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, suggested that it might be challenging to establish fair use if the sole purpose of archiving an article was to cut off the author's revenue, but that many forms of archiving to preserve content and promote commentary could be fair use: Politicians are caught making dumb tweets, controversial blog posts are cached before they're deleted, and that sort of thing. This is a change from the original article, which the author stated Daniel Nazer, a copyright attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, agreed that using Archive.today links to spread copyrighted material is probably illegal, but said that lots of people do it for a lot of reasons: The original language is very unambiguous, and goes toward the point "this is a violation of copyright law" that the author claims at the top. The new quote, however, reads more like an actual lawyer's opinion. It hedges and mentions several possibilities for fair use that makes the uses of archive.today as completely legal under copyright law, but doesn't go so far as to say that any specific factual situation is legal or illegal.

Last author statement: But, using those tools to copy entire articles so people can continue to read sites their movement ostensibly disagrees with is just plain old stealing. Makes a hardline legal conclusion.

Thus, if we're basing it on he "quoted lawyers" none of the lawyers quoted unambiguously said this was a violation of copyright law. The only person to say that was the author, Jason Koebler. The only lawyer that could have possibly said that asked the author to revise the piece to clarify that his opinion was much more nuanced than the author originally wrote. With all of that, its clear that at BEST the person saying that this is "illegal" is a non-lawyer, the author of the piece. That is very clearly not enough for WP to make a legal opinion. AT BEST, we could say that "Jason Koebler criticized the practice because it may violate copyright law" but even then, who is Koebler to give even that opinion. Some of the lawyers might be able to make that opinion, but it would take several sentences to go into the proper nuance of the legal analysis, and frankly, this Vice piece is not even close to the caliber of legal analysis to be notable in that regard. As such, we shouldn't be making any comment more than "Koebler critisized the practice." And frankly, even that is very poor. The whole criticism should be removed. Ries42 (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

That he did not put in quotes what more than one lawyer told him is irrelevant. We dont get to disqualify sources because they dont say things the way we want to say them .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:55, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you misunderstood. Its inappropriate and ACTUALLY illegal to give legal advice or draw a legal conclusion like you did as an unlicensed practice of law. Without the WPF signing off on providing a legal opinion in this article, which is what you did, its completely inappropriate to source a legal opinion for a non-legal source. The source should be disqualified because you're citing it for a legal opinion, and this is CLEARLY an unreliable source for a legal opinion. Ries42 (talk) 04:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Where prey tell is the LEGAL advice? It is not in any way shape or form "legal advice" to state that "murder is illegal " nor to state that "copyright violations are illegal". And we do not need to get WMF involved about such nonsense, although if you wish to drag them into this, feel free to do so. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Good: Piracy/Copyright is illegal. Bad: This is a violation of copyright law. Simple enough for you? Ries42 (talk) 13:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

After speaking with other editors, I fully support PrimeFac's edit for clarity. It dramatically improves the line, and I wish I thought of it myself. Ries42 (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Explanation of PeterTheFourth's revert of an edit by DHeyward

Hi! I've reverted your removal of a qualifying statement regarding a series of tweets made by Sam Biddle. This area is very contentious, and it seems important to me that we make sure to describe it as reliable sources do, rather than simply quoting verbatim. These quotes were only recently added (previously we only described it as a series of tweets), and I feel that if it is important enough to have the full quotes there we should also describe it in full. If you disagree, feel free to revert it and discuss your decision here or on my talk page. Cheers! PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't add or remove it, but I sort of see DHeyward's issue. Specifically, the quotes are the most important part, but each edit continually adds more and more before it, rather than getting to the point, the tweets, and then allowing the discussion to take place afterword (including the fact that many sources feel they may have been jokes, although in bad taste). Ries42 (talk) 05:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

CJR said a lot of things in that article and most are not kind to Gawker or Biddle. Rather than keep enlarging it with point/counterpoint, it's better to keep it simple. Biddle tweeted, it had fallout, -> media, activists and advertisers reacted. Point/counterpoint on Biddle's or Gawker's intent is largely irrelevant. --DHeyward (talk) 06:03, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

In that case, is it necessary to quote the tweets rather than simply mention them? We're suffering from an overabundance of quotes as it is, and it would be nice to trim them away. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, paraphrased is always better. Quotefarm articles suck. --DHeyward (talk) 06:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Would "a series of mocking tweets" be accurate? PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

"derisive" would be more accurate considering the reaction and apology. --DHeyward (talk) 07:11, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure 'regarding bullying of nerds' is the best phrasing (not that I have any suggestions for improvement), but it's already looking a lot better and more concise. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

To interject, I do not agree with removing the actual quoted tweets. While most of the time paraphrasing and removing quotes are good, especially when we have situations where there are dueling quotes (many instances in this article), in this case, the quotes are the actual disputed matter. Commentators, and hell, even those against Mr. Biddle may agree that they were a 'sarcastic joke,' that does not change the implied malice in the tweets. That is lost by not actually presenting the tweets, and the words Mr. Biddle wrote. We're losing important context by removing the words he spoke, as they are actually what is controversial and indeed, notable, about this section. We have an entire article to explain the context of why he wrote the tweets, and several commentators to explain what he "meant" by them; however, we shouldn't lose the actual words. It would be like removing Zoe Quinn's name from the article. Its not appropriate and I'm restoring the tweets. Feel free to add what you may feel is necessary before and after them, but the words should stay. Ries42 (talk) 13:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I've removed these quotes again, as proposed by DHeyward. The exact contents of the tweets are not important to understand what they were about nor the consequences. What is notable about the incident is that advertising was pulled as a result of campaigning, not that some tweets were made on twitter. PeterTheFourth (talk) 14:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I really do not appreciate you removing the tweets again. Several editors have worked on this before you and DHeyward came to this section. At best, there was discussion by two editors over a period of a couple hours and then they were removed. That does not equal consensus. DHeyward made several edits, and I reinserted one part that I felt was necessary. There is important context lost by not just writing out the tweets at issue here. When the words Mr. Biddle wrote ended up costing gawker 'seven figures' in revenue, those words became pretty damn notable and important. Important and notable enough that even the Columbia Journalism Review article cited here felt it was important to quote the exact tweets in its article. Its like trying to talk about the impact of the Gettysburg Address, or MLK's I have a dream speech, without quoting portions of the speeches. Ries42 (talk) 14:45, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Regrettably, these two tweets were not as influential as the Gettysburg Address or the "I Have a Dream" speech. What important context is lost by describing them as 'a series of derisive tweets regarding bullying of nerds.'? PeterTheFourth (talk) 15:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course they're not as influential. That wasn't my point, the point was to show by analogy that there is context lost through paraphrasing. Of course this is always the case, but most of the time it isn't that big of an issue. The context lost is the actual messages that he wrote. We can either spend 2-3 paragraphs analyzing exactly what he meant, how he said it, etc. etc., or... we can just post the tweets in question and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions. The tweets ARE the context lost. Ries42 (talk) 15:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) becuase they are not 'a series of derisive tweets regarding bullying of nerds' - they are a series of twits calling out gamergaters using the metaphor of "bullying nerds". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Bullying is a metaphor now? Weedwacker (talk) 15:19, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you should take a Lit 101 class. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I again note you are not being appropriately civil with other editors. That issue aside, do you have a reliable source for the statement that Biddle's tweets are "a series of twits calling out gamergaters using the metaphor of 'bullying nerds'" rather than what the plain (verifiable) language of them actually says? Starke Hathaway (talk) 15:55, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not advocating that we call out the metaphor in the article, but neither will we use an inappropriately trimmed quote to misrepresent that the twit was about bullying nerds rather than gamergate -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

In the interest of explaining myself- I didn't believe that was the best description of the series of tweets, I was just reinstating DHeywards edit because I believed a summary was better than the exact quotes. Apologies if this was inappropriate. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:11, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I do not agree with TRPoD often; however, I believe we're in agreement here that it is better to just quote the tweets at issue and then follow with analysis from the sources of their meaning than trying to skirt around the issue and some how paraphrase them without just stating what was said. Ries42 (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition of "swatting"

It seems to me that including this definition is taking up unnecessary space in an already bloated article. Shouldn't wikilinking "swatting" suffice? Starke Hathaway (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not particularly pleased with the sentence as-is. My preference would be that we re-work it to avoid any jargon, but I'm not much of a wordsmith. — Strongjam (talk) 20:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Point taken re: avoiding jargon. I've taken a crack at it, maybe that will help. Starke Hathaway (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

We could also take the route of re-work the sentence to avoid the jargon and include a wikilink to the jargon at an appropriate place in the sentence, if possible. I would say that it would be the best of both worlds; a summary for those to understand and a link for those who want more. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Call for deletion posted accidentally on a different talk page

Source Trimming

Bernstein, Joseph (August 28, 2014). "Gaming Is Leaving "Gamers" Behind". Buzzfeed. Retrieved September 7, 2014.

• Buzzfeed article, citing in two places in the Draft, and in both places there are other citations that are provided for the information. Can we kill this source? Seems to be only marginally reliable and I'd personally prefer not to infer much reliability to Buzzfeed. Comments? Ries42 (talk) 17:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Usually best to be bold about these things. I have no real opinion on the reliability of BF, but I've given it a go, as there's no real need to pile on the sources if something is already well sourced. — Strongjam (talk) 17:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm learning to be bold when necessary, but cautious on certain things, especially removal. Best to just double check in talk than to get stung ;) Ries42 (talk) 17:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

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