Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nscheffey (talk | contribs) at 08:31, 17 July 2006 (User:Ste4k). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives

• User talk:Will Beback/archive1 - January 2006
• User talk:Will Beback/archive2 - February 2006
• User talk:Will Beback/archive3 - March 2006
• User talk:Will Beback/archive4 - April 2006
• User talk:Will Beback/archive5 - May 2006
• User talk:Will Beback/archive6 - June 2006

Using {{Vprotected}}

Why don't you use {{Vprotected}} on both protected Biff Rose and Talk:Biff Rose instead of {{Protected}}, if you declare that an "abusive vandal has returned"? -- ADNghiem501 00:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

As I looked at your contributions, you missed one more { on "Fill Your Heart" article . -- ADNghiem501 02:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

See #Fill Your Heart. -- ADNghiem501 04:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverting vandalism

I was trying to revert vandalism on your talk page, but you already did. My edit to saving this page did nothing. Thanks. -- ADNghiem501 01:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I reverted vandalism by User:Vacuum cleaner again. Please block this user. -- ADNghiem501 03:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

civility

Please remember to remain civil, Will. It seems several users are unhappy with you. Justforasecond 03:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Fill Your Heart

This version before you protected "Fill Your Heart", may contain POV that the abusive vandal has reverted to. Please consider to check the history of this article before reverting to a NPOV version and re-adding {{Vprotected}} to that version of the page. which you've protected the article that may be vandalism and probably contain POV was revised by the abusive vandal. However, it seems that you actually didn't revert to a revision by Sojambi Pinola before you were going to protect the page. As I looked at your contributions to this article, I saw this {Vprotected}}, which a '{' is clearly missing, remains on that page and didn't display the formatting of a protected tag properly. If you supposely wanted to protect a version of the article that doesn't include an unverifiable, biased, and patently false information in the page history I've checked, consider yourself to check the revisions that you and Sojambi Pinola attempted to revert vandalism and POV by the same guy who actually did to Biff Rose before proceeding your course of protection. -- ADNghiem501 08:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for defending me

Will, thanks for defending me at Talk:Daily Illini. I was gone for a few days, so I appreciated not having a whole lot of unanswered questions/accusations to respond to when I got back.--Kchase02 T 23:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Heads up

You may be interested in Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_26#Category:Cult_leaders ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

rv vandalism

I reverted vandalism to this page that consisted of a picture inserted hundreds of times. All the previous content was deleted. You can view the reverted code here, but I don't recommend viewing the page itself. It crashed my browser several times. I have given the vandal a strong warning, but since the page is protected, it's likely a sockpuppet for just this purpose.--Kchase02 T 04:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank You

for the logo. Jose Jamirez 23:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Elvis Presley: movies section

As you seem to have some experience with User:Northmeister, may I ask you to have a look at the Elvis Presley article and related pages, for instance, , . Northmeister has started an edit war with me concerning the movies section of this article and its sandbox. He has repeatedly deleted material which is well sourced, falsely claiming that he is only rearranging the material I am including, but it is obvious that this user has intentionally removed passages which are not in line with his all-too positive view of Elvis as a movie star, though all critics agree that the singer's films are pretty bad, as the many sources I have provided show. According to the Wikpedia guidelines, removing of well-sourced passages is not acceptable and not NPOV. See, for instance, , , , , , etc. Do you have an idea what I could do? Onefortyone 01:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Image:Map of Orange.jpg

What is the source of Image:Map of Orange.jpg? Did you draw it yourself? I see you've marked it as public domain. -Will Beback 23:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could create images like this. I was emailed the image along with some other PD images and data when I requested information from the City some time ago.--Lordkinbote 05:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

I'm sure you already saw it, but since I'm dropping by the talkpages of interested parties, check out Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (immigration).--Rockero 21:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Jimmy is leaving a message there. Danny 22:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

protection

I saw that you just protected a few articles, like Dreamachine and Marvin Belli. Are you going to remove the personal information from the edit summaries? Joyous! | Talk 04:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind; I figured out how to do that myself. Joyous! | Talk 04:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Your method is much easier than my method. Putting checks in 150 little boxes really isn't a great deal of fun. Thanks for the instructions on the superior way. Joyous! | Talk 15:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong diff

Hi, Will, I saw your message on Alienus's talk page, and checked the diff. It's not relevant to the words you quote. The one you meant is here. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 08:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

FYI... I support your block and said so on his page, some discussion ensued (it's at the top) and I've also raised it here Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Block_of_Alienus_by_Will_Beback_for_3_days and I sincerely hope that we get consensus this time before anyone lifts or shortens it. ++Lar: t/c 17:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you. I can delete the message, I wrote. I only wanted things to be accurate, and was not trying to attack you. I have been trying to disprove Nueva Germania claims for years now. --Robert551 17:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of research, I am deleting "Robert551"'s 'cry wolf' performance art (or however unceasing vindictive outbursts may be euphemized) message. Recent NG pilgrimages by serious persons have yielded the following webpages. (Unfortunately, they will not make a lot of sense to the non-German speaker.) I know that you have a lot of other subjects to monitor and try to keep a measured opinion about, but if you are for some reason committed to interesting social experiment that was and is Nueva Germania for the moment, you may want to have a look:

http://www.taz.de/pt/2006/05/18/a0132.1/text

http://www.modocom.de/akademie/Anthropologie/NuevaGermania/NuevaGermania.htm

http://www.stephanmaus.de/wissenschaftsakademie-nueva-germania.htm

Ann Heneghan

Would someone please explain what the deal with Ann Heneghan is?

No.--SB | T 22:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Following is the newly confident "Robert511" you are advocating. Please read this page carefully, examining the text for actual motives, interests and clear-headedness: www dot buggirlmedia dot com/woodard dot html

The Elizabeth Morgan page

Will: Could you take another look at the Elizabeth Morgan article? There are some admins who feel the need to destroy the information that points to Dr. Morgan's current medical practice (which happens to be in your neck of the woods these days). The same group of Wikipedians displayed the same problematic behavior about a year ago on this same article. I am not asking you to change the article; just please add something to the talk about about if the link to her practice should or should not be in the article. What is the NPOV approach in this case? Other attempts to provide dialog on the matter have been reverted by this pack of admins who seem to have some POV to supress this info. They do not engage in dialog, they just revert, which I cannot distinguish from problematic, emotion-based behavior. -- 67.121.146.110 02:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Will: Thanks. It is very difficult to deal with the opposition I have encountered about this page over the past year. These non-Americans, even our own Misplaced Pages admins, hear the phrase "child sexual abuse" and the desire for balance seems to disappear and the only mentality seems to be about lynching the accused, who is almost invariably male. As older men, you and I realize that some women, even very well educated ones with responsible positions in society, occasionally resort to false claims of sexual abuse in order to prevail in cusotdy cases. We will never know for certain if Foretich raped his daughter, but we do know that his relationship with his daughter was destroyed, perhaps forever, based almost solely on Dr. Morgan's assertions. I think you agree that we must rely on the courts and their professionals to discover the truth and accept the outcome of the courts. I think that it is unfortunate that Antonia Morgan decided to unlawfully take matters into her own hands and flee with her grandchild and that Congress chose to intervene in this case. Neither was appropropriate in our modern society where we ultimately must allow third parties - disinterested professionals - resolve such matters. Thanks again for your leadership. -- 75.23.153.43 05:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• FYI, these posts appear to be from Amorrow, who is indefinitely banned from editing. —tregoweth (talk) 06:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, not that again.... --TJive 07:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, child sexual abuse is a very difficult subject. It is not for people with weak stomachs. Did you ever thing about what is involved with properly operating a culpascope? The police are around and you have to follow chain-of-custody rules with the evidence and grody stuff like that. It has nothing to do with TV or movie stars or entertainment. It but is Important and worthy of the encyclopedia. It is certainly relevant to everyday people and the role of the family in society. Ugh. Boring! Get it out of my face! -- TechsMechs 08:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Based on the bizarre meanderings out of nowhere, I presume we are in fact seeing his return. --TJive 09:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, "Amorrow" and "Jonah Ayers" are unrelated, though similar, vandals. I don't fully understand Amorrow, the Elizabeth Morgan/A.H. stalker; I understand Ayers, the Biff Rose stalker, all too well. It's Ayers who has been vandalizing this page. "Amorrow" may have recently been active on a number of pages, least of them this one. -Will Beback 10:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it's a separate matter, but he's definitely here. Right now. --TJive 10:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Will: I am going to ask you to look into another issue. I am not going to identify myself, I am just asking you to use your own intelligence and judgement. Take a look at . Now I ask you: is this really what being an admin is all about? Doing nothing but taking actions against one supposed user? She might be an admin, but it seems that some mentorship is in order. I am not suggesting that any kind of punishment is in order, but there is no good explanation for this pattern. I am asking that her admin log start deal with something besides going after this one person. You know, just to round out her experience. Maybe she could just do some speedies or, you know, just a little bit of vareity in her admin diet. Her current behavior just sets a very bad example: no admin should be so narrowly focused on one user for so long. It is evidence that she is emotionally involved in this one issue (you can go back and review her RfA on your own). More objectivity is required from an admin. She just needs a little bit of guidance and leadership from an appropriate peer such as yourself or your designee. -- 64.175.40.71 10:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've responded on your user page, User talk:64.175.40.71. -Will Beback 10:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL. FloNight 10:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Will: I would love to have an account for more than a few weeks at a time. I was using TechsMechs for a while, but you-know-who just did an indef block on it. The email is still valid on that account. Sorry, this is the best I can do under these difficult circumstances. -- 64.175.40.71 10:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Will: I want to review once again with you what happened:

• Somebody started to bring the article forward
• You helpfully reminded everybody to document the article
• Somebody went and carefully changed all the external links to footnotes, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's best FA-quality standard
• Some POV admins rushed in and undid all that work. They were Nunh-huh, Tregoweth and FloNight. Now, they are talkign about doing a speedy on the entire article. Makes you proud to be an American on this 4th of July. If you think about it, those admins are the kind-of like people that our forefathers killed a bunch of 230 years ago. Those do not want collaboration - they just imagine Misplaced Pages to be their empire to rule or their perormance stage to hog and own. None of those admins ever did anything to help build that important article - which is mostly about American law - and now they want to tear it down to zero. Oh well. Enjoy your freedoms and access to free quality information while it lasts! Happy Independence Day! Try not to think any thoughts that FloNight does not approve of. If you examine her contributions on the EM talk page, you will see that she prefers that collaboration occur in secret. Sweet! -- 67.121.145.7 22:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review Misplaced Pages:Banning policy. In particular, it says, "If you are banned, please respect your ban and do not edit Misplaced Pages..." and "All edits by a banned user made since their ban, regardless of their merits, may be reverted by any user." -Will Beback 23:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Faith and stuff

WB -
I must admit I am also deeply puzzled by this whole series of events. And while I'm firm in my stand that copyright is sancrosect, I was at times quite moved by Primetime's apparent distress at seeing the articles he worked on deleted or rolled back. I also understand that you've lost a bit of innocence over all of this. So, urm, buck up little camper, all will be well. My nearly-constant cries of "talk nice to the vandals" are mostly aimed elsewhere. Thanks for taking the time to respond, keep up the good work.
brenneman 12:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: Appreciation

You're very welcome! RadioKirk (u|t|c) 15:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

About Charles Buell Anderson and Endeavor Academy

Apparently users put the article together, one of whom was personally associated as a student there, the other who has cited three of his own web sites. It looks to be a biography in disguise covering a WP:SPAM hate campaign of one sort or another. Please review the cite listings again, I have just finished researching their owners, actual titles, etc. Thanks. Ste4k 17:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I am waiting at this point for you to go ahead and reply to three of the cited sources. Thanks. Ste4k 23:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I've addressed your comments again in the discussion pages. Thanks. Ste4k 08:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I've addressed your comments again. I also went ahead and moved the one specific external link from the bio page to the institution page per the discussion. Thanks. Ste4k 00:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Belated Thanks

Thanks for dealing with the anonymous Tom Atkins (actor) vandal. Some vandals just don't know when to stop.

Sullenspice 20:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Alienus arbitration

See this application. --Tony Sidaway 21:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

RE:unblock

Heh, sorry about that. You're right, I should have and I apologise but i have posted my justifications on WP:ANI. Won't happen again. Cheers. Sasquatch t|c 00:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Harvardlaw

Hi, I'm posting this here because the Administrator incident page is kind of full and if I put it under the David Silver/Harvardlaw sub-heading there, it might be missed. The article with the name was Xavier College Preparatory, the edits by Harvardlaw. Avillia had posted a link about hiding edit history, but looking at it I haven't a clue what to do. Hoping you could either shed some light on it, or, given my lazy nature, take care of it. --Nobunaga24 01:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

AfD

I see you've done the bulk of the work needed to clean up the rubbish left by Jenny Jones/JJstoker. I listed one of the articles started by this user on AfD, so I thought I'd let you know. Regards. 172 | Talk 05:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Breeder and fudgepacker

Hi, you've removed the common slang terms "breeder" and "fudgepacker" from List of sexual slurs. Could you explain why you think these do not belong in the list? --Tony Sidaway 10:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I explained the deletion on the talk page. -Will Beback 18:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Anaheim Hills.

The point of it was not to show you neighborhoods within cities, although many of them are within cities of Kentucky or Ohio for example. It was to show you that a community has no distinct way to be represented. Many towns choose community, closest town, state, or community, state, or community, or community, county, state, or community(city), or community (state). There are several ways to represent the community, and it is based on a page by page basis. Now, I would understand if you put "Anaheim" if I were talking about a community of like 30 houses in Anaheim, like Peralta Hills, but we are not. It is a community larger than 14 incorporated OC cities, and has Anaheim in its name. Now, take Downtown for example. Many, for example, like Downtown Berkeley says Downtown Berkeley, California, not Downtown Berkeley, Berkeley, California. Like for Anaheim Hills. You know it is in some way associated with the City of Anaheim-or you are stupid. Now, if you read the first paragraph of the article, you will understand the relationship. If you dont read the first paragraph, than the information probably doesnt matter that much to you anyway. The title is not meant to give you all the details, and is less cluttered than community, city, state. Now, I have a proposal. To end the community controversy, if the community has an entire zip code (1 or more) only for itself, it can drop the community, city, state title and use community, state, but it must mention the city it is part of in the first 2 sentences of the article and state that it is just a community. If the community does not have its own zip code in the city it is within, than it must keep the community, city, state title. This will allow the larger communities to have more independence, yet will still require the introduction to state the city it is part of. On the other hand, it will still allow us to recognize communities that might be small within cities. --Ericsaindon2 01:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

And I dont appreciate that when I try to make a consideration user:Coolceasar trys to harass and disrespect me. When I did that, you were all over my case, but when he does it, you say nothing to defend my case as an admin. Is he above the Misplaced Pages rules? --Ericsaindon2 05:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Eric, you have messages on your talk page, please respond. See User talk:Ericsaindon2. User:Coolceasar can be a bit flippant sometimes, especially when dealing with problem editors. I'll have a word with him. Regarding your own behavior, please don't call me stupid.

As for your point, It is not obvious that Anaheim Hills is an unofficial neighborhood of Anaheim. Tustin Hills is not a neghborhood of Tustin, nor are East Tustin and North Tustin. On the other hand, it is obvious that Downtown Berkeley is located in Berkeley. Also, there are some placenames that cover an area which is only partly incorporated or a geopgraphic feature. There's a convention, but it's just a guideline. Misplaced Pages is flexible enough to handle special situations. However Anaheim Hills is not a special situation. -Will Beback 06:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasnt calling you stupid, I was speaking in reference of a reader who continued to think Berkeley and Downtown Berkeley were different. Now, you just proved my point. Berkeley is obviously part of Downtown Berkeley. But I could say the same thing to you. Downtown San Fernando and San Fernando are not in the same city. There are exceptions to that rule as well. Trust me, I do see your point and reasons for wanting it. I do sympathize with your view....in most cases. But, if you lived in Anaheim Hills, you would know that it almost is never referenced with Anaheim except in dusty files in the cabinet. Even the council deals with Anaheim and Anaheim Hills issues separately. They never refer to Anaheim Hills without saying Anaheim Hills. If you look on their website, everything located in Anaheim Hills states that. Now, I think it is something that should be determined in a case-by-case basis. Most communities have smaller references, and in turn should have a city to accompany them so that it can be identified. But Anaheim Hills ranks unofficially 3rd as the largest community in California. It is never referred to as Anaheim, so why should it be different on this page. Now, I think that large communities that are easily identifiable like La Jolla, Anaheim Hills, San Fernando Valley, Granada Hills, and Hollywood should be referenced as special situation places. Plus, I have learned alot about communities. I have determined how strong that name is used by whether it needs the city to accompany it or not. It is very informative in just the title, and gives you insight to the size and strength of the community by if its name can be recognized standing alone. Now, take the name Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. People think that the name is stupid because Anaheim Angels is a more precise name, and better represents the city. That is why Anaheim has spent millions of dollars to get Los Angeles out of the name. Now, it should be something determined by the community, and how they want to be referenced. Not the admins who outnumber us. I live here everyday, and I know we hate to be identified as Anaheim, so much so that documents state Anaheim Hills on them. So why would you identify us as Anaheim if we, in no context what-so-ever are referenced with Anaheim? PS, If you read the first sentence, it states that it is a community. The title isnt supposed to greatly inform you, that is what the article is for. --Ericsaindon2 08:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I did this test move, and lost the Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California page. Can you fix it? --Ericsaindon2 08:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k

Hi, I've noticed you've been having some discussions with User:Ste4k regarding her edits to Charles Buell Anderson. I've been involved in a long and fruitless conversation with her on my talk page, and I was wondering what's your overall opinion of her actions and behavior. I personally think she is misinterpreting policy and generally wreaking havoc. Just wanted an outside opinion, thanks. --Nscheffey 02:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say your view appears correct. -Will Beback 03:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Line break

Oops, you missed deleting one line break, shown in green area, when you removed your test subpage links from your user page. -- ADNghiem501 06:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for watching out! Cheers, -Will Beback 06:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

RfC

I believe that an RfAr would be premature at this time and would not be productive. Therefore I am asking that you allow the pending RfC to continue. Al 08:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It is our job in an RfC to demontrate to the user why the community feels their behavior needs to change and for the editor concerned to explain why they behave as they do. To make it a precondition that they assume guilt before the process can even start is a demonstration of injustice of the highest level. I would ask you to examine your motives in this case and ask whether you are not just getting the rope ready to hang a dog who you think has a bad name? Sophia 08:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

AN/I is very informal with no clear summaries and alot of axe grinding going on so no - I would not expect an editor to necessarily see the points being made as there was a lot of chaff (along with comments that showed some users to be too immature to be trusted with sysops). I'm taking a wide stab here that you have no real life experience of formal dispute resolution - all you can ask is that an person is prepared to abide by the outcome for the process to have a point. Sophia 09:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

If anything, the AN/I was not only about alleged incivility, but contained numerous examples of actual incivility directed at me and anyone else who might have a kind word for me. What was particularly distressing is that some of the most uncivil (and inane) comments came from admins, who should know better than this. No, I don't think the AN/I was particularly productive, even if I could have responded. Al 09:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The most productive outcome that I can see from all of this is that the current RfAr is abandoned and DavidBailey is encouraged to file his RfC (JakeW's is out of date now). That way we can follow procedue, have a mature discussion without the childishness that was displayed on AN/I (and I must say beautifully ignored by those who should know better) and see where this leads.

As I said before - for a fair system all you can do is ask that all editors will abide by the outcome of the process to valdate it. Something I'm sure Al will have no issue with. Sophia 10:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your emphasis on accepting the outcome of a fair process. It would be counterproductive to presume any particular conclusion, as such is to be determined by the process itself.

As for the old RfC, I'm not sure how many of the issues are still relevant. A lot of the players have come and gone, and many of the details are faded in my memory. I know Jake was trying to be helpful by giving Bailey something to work with, but it's not clear how much of it has any value today.

On the other hand, Bailey's allegations are recent and in line with Beback's, so that RfC is still fresh. Al 10:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Angels and Airwaves Vandalism Notice

Just curious, but why did you remove the sprot on the Angels and Airwaves article? If you look through the history of the article, it's obviously been vandalised numerous times by anonymous accounts. Enfestid 16:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Antonio Villaraigosa

The unexplained deletion was actually done because the information on Stephen Reinhardt is redundant if you read the whole paragraph. Please revert your modifications back to the one before. Thank you.

Lynching

Polite language is getting ignored and brushed aside as some try to bypass due prosess to achieve the justice they "know" the community wants - the analogy seemed very clear to me when someone else brought up the idea of vilantism. It was a carefully chosen word and I hope it brings some up short to realise how their actions can can seem to those who do not agree.

I'm defending Al who's real name I do not know and whom I know virtually nothing about because I recognise in him just the sort of intelligence and confidence that this project needs. He also needs people like me to perform "damage limitation" sometimes and mentor him in how to harness his obvious talents and show him how to get along in this project. The controversial articles in Misplaced Pages need people like him to stop them becoming a cozy club of whatever POV group dominates at the time. I have had real problems on the religious articles getting minority but significant views included either at all or without huge additions which show how the dominant POV of the article is obviously right and this view is wrong. It was only another fearless editor who shook things up a bit - showed the dominant group that there were strong and significant views other than theirs out there and changes were made which have stuck. Better than that the knowledge base of the group changed and we all learned new things. The attitude changed as well and instead of saying "well of course it is - you show different" the dominant group will now explain in detail their POV without it being seen as a challenge to their faith. Conflict with other editors there has taught me huge amounts about my own POV that I never suspected and has helped me to put my edits in context. The old saying is "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" and that is so true sometimes.

Al has taken so much on board and has had to deal with some very unimaginative people who the project could lose with no net effect on the articles at all. He has failed to rise to the obvious bait of Tony Sidaway admirably and has made huge gains in self-control and civility. My suspicion is that this is what has prompted the close examination of his every move as even 2 months ago they must have assumed he would soon be gone - they would have been right if he had carried on he was.

If Al is banned or put under supervision by these unimaginative people (effectively curbing him to Buffy articles) I will leave the project too. Not as a girly huff but in the knowledge that my presence is pointless. If the project is hell bent on avoiding all conflict then the most beligerant determined POV will dominate the article everytime. I will not effectively condone this and so my position here will be untenable.

I suppose there is a personal aspect to this as I have tried to play a mentor role to Al and he has responded as well as you could ever expect someone to do in the short time we have been in communication. He still needs to work on his civility occasionally but I genuinely think sometimes he has no idea how his comments will be taken by others. These are errors everyone in the world is guilty of and a successful community will educate people and help them avoid problems in the future. Throw in the international element of this project and you have even more issues as culturally we do approach things differently. I do find some American editors quite aggressive sometimes - fortunately I have enough real world experience to put this in context and and deal with it. Not everyone has that to draw upon.

With Al improving now was not the time to pounce on him - this community needs to be able to successfully "train" people in how to callborate productively in a way that is completely new and constantly changing as the project grows. The core values of civilty and NPA will help this but these are often culturally defined so there will always be a bit of give and take and explaining to be done. Al is responding to this "training" so I really fail to see how calling someone an "edit warrior" can land you with an ArbCom case - which should be reserved for extreme and/or deteriorating situations.

This isn't a plea to give him a chance as he is improving and is on the right road - this is my attempt to help wikipedia progress as a project in the way it needs to have the edge over other encyclopedias. Sophia 06:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A little slow on the uptake...

... "Will Beback" as in "Shall Return." I just got it. For all these months, I thought it was your real name. Ha. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 09:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alienus

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alienus has been accepted. Please place evidence at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alienus/Evidence and proposals and comments at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alienus/Workshop. Fred Bauder 13:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC) for the Arbitration Committee.

Reply

What you see as guarded incivility on my part I see as the only polite way I can make my concerns known. I do have suspicion about the motives of others - why would I not when the RfC has been skipped and this ArbCom is flying into action with indecent speed. I always AGF except where there is none to be found for others. No one has yet said that the situation with Al is deteriorating or explained why this is the only next logical step.

There is one huge difference between a fearless editor and a bully - bullies have power - either in the form of lots of friends or special privileges that they abuse. A fearless editor takes them on on the facts and references despite being brushed aside/trivialised or accused of bad faith motives.

As for unimaginative - put that down to my creative civility. Everytime my questions about the lack of RfC or the haste of this process go unanswered or are trivialised I am effectively being told I am not worth answering so my edits or concerns on these matters are of no value.

I have never said civility is not important. Where we differ is the way we apply those standards. I would petition for the same rules and more importantly the same interpretation of those rules for all. Al was blocked for 3 days for calling someone and "edit warrior" - why isn't half of wikipedia blocked?

If I leave it will be because I am so far off the mark as to how this community should function that I will have no place here. I'm not irreplaceable and not a fountain of knowledge so this I'm sure this will not affect the articles which is what matters. This is not an empty threat designed to up the stakes - I will have a lot to think about as I will have got it so wrong that in the short term I will need to evaluate the lessons I should learn. In the longer term I will have to decide whether I am prepared to conform to the view of the community that I obviously currently see as erroneous. I'm old enough to know that this is unlikely.

A complaint is one person's interpretation of a situation - just possibly they might be wrong about this and have something to learn themselves. When I'd got my confidence here up a bit I was going to suggest a new wiki guideline along those lines - WP:LEARN which would basically say that everyone has something to learn from every situation - even if it's only how not to do it the next time. Every situation is a non-flyer when one part assumes all the learning needs to take place on the others side and you will achieve nothing, either personally, or for the project, by approaching things in this way. Sophia 16:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Naming

The naming convention for this page should be Anaheim Hills, California. Anaheim Hills, California is the most commonly referenced name for the area. I was reading through the naming conventions, and have found no justifications for the statements about the community, city, state convention that had to be used. The only rule that I found was that the name had to be precise, and the most common form of the name. Following the "black and white" rules of WIkipedia, the most commonly used name, and the most precise name is Anaheim Hills, California. Using Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California is not the most common or the most precise name for the article, breaking the main naming rules of Misplaced Pages. As I said, the statements above about the community, city, state convention has no evidence to back it up, and is the assumed desire of particular users, and in no way the typical naming convention. Some users do not want to accept the fact that they were wrong, and have taken their actions regarding the naming convention too far. I think it is time that we put this silly issue behind us, and just move it to Anaheim Hills, California where it belongs. That is what the Misplaced Pages rules state, and that is where the page needs to rest. The Misplaced Pages rules, like keeping the name precise and at a commonly used level has worked very well...if the rules havent been manipulated by the users and admins who insist that it MUST remain at Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California. Just move it to Anaheim Hills, California, follow the Misplaced Pages Guidelines, admit all your wrong doings (for every user on this page has a wrong doing in one form or another) and lets just try to handle this in a civil way. --69.232.62.33 08:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: proposed RfC

Sure, although I'll be incommunicado for several days next week---I'll be visiting Riverside. Ericsaindon is creating such a mess. --Coolcaesar 13:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni33

Look, I realise that a lot of his behaviour in the past has been unacceptable, and I agree that he deserved the initial block he got. There was nothing that another week block was going to achieve, however, apart from removing any chance he might turn out to be a good editor given time. I thus told him to cool it, and gave him a chance to correct his behaviour. I really do see no benefit in continuing this current block, so I'm going to unblock once again, but I promise you that if he continues his past conduct, I will not object to a reblock. Rebecca 23:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

I appreciate the interlude. --John Foxe 09:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

When you have a chance, could you check on the BJU page again? I think our antagonist uses a dial-up service and so has a dozen or more ISP addresses. I don't know how you can treat reversion equally in such a case. --John Foxe 21:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again. I should have written the above message before I made my last revert. --John Foxe 22:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Talk:İlham Əliyev

Hi Will, If you have a chance, would you mind having a look at this issue regarding an article that was originally moved without discussion and which is meeting with rather obstinate resistance to being moved back? The most pertinent part begins here. I'm starting to lose patience so I should probably drop out of it altogether. Thanks for your help. Pinkville 11:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for arbitration

I've nominated you as an involved user. Please submit a statement. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration. --Coolcaesar 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Concerned about User:Ste4k

Hey Will, I noticed you ran into User:Ste4k on Charles_Buell_Anderson. I ran into him on Dissident_Voice. The guy is passive aggressive and questioning basic facts even after I meet his demands to source to original sources. I find his demands to be out of the bounds of reasonableness. He has also added a ton of macros to the Dissident Voice page even though it is incredibly sparse -- and he didn't add the most appropriate ones such as "stub" or "expand". I think he's going to be a long term issue on Misplaced Pages, but I don't know how to handle her/him. He also blanks his user talk page -- probably to avoid people figuring out he is being this way on a lot of articles at once. --Ben Houston 15:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I am the third person to express concerns about User:Ste4k. The user appears to wish to re-write the "A Course in Miracles" article when by their own admission they know little or nothing about the subject.--Who123 20:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to reiterate my complaint about User:Ste4k on the "A Course in Miracles" article. My complaints are similar to Ben Houston. The user is so obstructive that nothing can be accomplished. Common knowledge is called OR. I do not know what the agenda of this user is but it does not appear to be a helpful one. Please stop by the discussion page and article history page and see what you think.

Since there have been multiple complaints about this user would it be possible to temporarily suspend the user until this is resolved? Can you revert their last edits on "A Course in Miracles?" At the very least User:Ste4k is simply obstructive to any positive work. It may even be considered vandalism.--Who123 12:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit war and strange usernames editing David Horowitz

Since I saw you edited David Horowitz recently and are an administrator, I thought I would bring something to your attention and ask how you think this should be handled. There has recently been what appears to be a minor edit war regarding a paragraph of "criticism" (although I can't see any criticism at all, or sources for that matter, in it.) What is disturbing though is that several of the last edits are being done by users who, in addition to having nonsensical usernames, have made no other contributions except their single one to Horowtiz's article. I would expect that kind of thing goes on when an article has been protected from editing by anonymous users. I'm afraid that these nonsensical usernames have been created by someone for the specific intention of editing, without consensus or discussion, and with impunity if and when the page is deemed worthy of protection. I am posting a discussion request on the talk page but what should be done if it not responded to? Lawyer2b 01:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Jerry Jones and CongressRecords

I have been talking via email with Jerry Jones. Mostly about POV edit warring. I would like to give him a chance to try again. He wants the accounts Jerry Jones and CongressRecords unblocked and wants the sockpuppets he used while blocked deleted. Not sure which those are yet. Fred Bauder 01:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2

Come on. Now you are just getting childish to scrape up information for my Arbitration, and referring to my talk page. I told you it was a joke, and replaced it. You know that this whole this was a dispute between two editors. Yet, you are coaching Coolcaesar on his talk page on how to win over the Arbcom, and have been his personal police assistant in this whole issue. I personally think that it wont get anywhere, but you are betraying me. I thought highly of you, higher of you to use my first 5 days of editing totally against me. You know that the images I uploaded on my first weeks of edits were copyrighted incorrectly, and I apologized to you extensively, and deleted them, and learned the policy, and have corrected any of my improperly noted uploads at your request. Plus, you cant use the IP against me because that is not a sockpuppet, it is when I log out, and forget to log back in. And I told you, that is not me it is my brother. Do I need to upload a picture of him to show you? Well, those are the only two things you people are against me about, which I can all manage to find evidence against Coolcaesar for as well (because everyone in their first few weeks does those things, but begins to learn). You refer to me promoting Anaheim Hills. I did that in my first few days before I knew about the project. I deleted it at your request and rewrote it. Yet, you are holding it against me here when I was learning. I dont self promote the community at all, I have a disaster section for goodness sakes. And I dont have a pet cause, and am not sure what you are referring to. I have never put anything on another article that wasnt accompanied with proof. I have added 26 infoboxes, and 6 community pages, all with a neutral POV. That statement is totally inappropriate because I have not self promoted any other articles, except the regretful edits I made to Anaheim Hills 2 days into my experience on Misplaced Pages. Please, can you just remove those parts, and keep it truthful, because you know that I have not self promoted, or had an ultimate goal to destruct. I was just trying to improve and add information to other community places and cities, and have not vandalized or defaced any other community or city articles. Please act like an admin, and remove those things, and respond about your Point of View on my talk page. --Ericsaindon2 08:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

HELLO

Hello to you too. All we're looking for is an assurance that you won't keep repeating the same behavior. I've told you that on talk pages and in private emails. And gosh, if I had a buck for everytime someone said that their "brother" was responsible for their meat puppet edits then I could buy a Starbucks' grande latte. If you'd agree to forego promoting Anaheim Hills then we might achieve a compromise. -Will Beback 08:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will try to reason with you, although it goes against every moral I have to give in to people who wont just admit they did something wrong. But, please leave a compromise under this message on your talk page, and I will seriously consider what you have to say, and we might be able to work something out from there. BUT, I would like to keep it between us, and not go announce it on every talk page you can find, and not involve others that will instigate problems and irritate me again. I just want to try and make a civil compromise right here and now. --Ericsaindon2 10:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that a private deal is appropriate. If you'd like to engage in civil discussions then I suggest that you remove the personal attacks on your userpage. -Will Beback 23:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Introducing Peace

I have added a peace compromise agreement to the Anaheim Hills page. Please comment on it sometime before tomorrow morning, because I would like to hear your comments and ideas before tomorrow morning when involved parties begin getting involved. Thank You. :)--Ericsaindon2 09:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2

How many votes are needed in arbitration? I am just curious because only one person has shown any interest in this pursuance. --Ericsaindon2 23:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

re Abolition of age of consent laws

OMG. What to do about this article? Herostratus 04:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Most Misplaced Pages articles look so dull. I had forgotten how much more interesting a page can be with liberal text formatting. It needs more colored fonts though. -Will Beback 04:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

if looks could see

Oh wait they can. Could oyu take a look see over at the Antonioni page? It's getting a touch didactic over there. ThanksMurraywoo

Rose again

Not supposed to erase comments on the talk page, Mr. Naconkantari. Perhaps the deep freeze to the rose bushes is palatable to some, but this freakish level of censoring has lead to misinformation, and bleeds the blood of badness here. Wash your hands Will Mc, and Mr. Naconkantari, you both have something to answer for. Something called Fascism. Ivy Hezza 05:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2 Comments

Yes, you are telling me they take a while. And is Coolcaesar taking a break? I would have thought him to be the first to bash my peace proposition, but he has yet to say anything. It seems like the people on the page seem to be enjoying all the internal turmoil, because they dont seem to want to make peace, or make any sort of compromise, so you cant say I didnt try to settle the dispute. I guess if they dont want to make peace (which I really would give anything to end this dumb fight) it continues on until everyone is willing to give and take on some aspects of it, but until then, I guess there will be no change. --Ericsaindon2 07:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

tossing out the policy and guidelines.

I really don't understand your angle on wp:ver and other policies. Perhaps I am wrong, I am new and you are an admin (i.e. you have been here much longer). I don't understand why you prefer to drag a conversation on rather than follow dispute guidelines and bring the content dispute up as a matter in an RfC. My only intention is to follow the guidelines which I have constantly been made aware of by others. I have my opinion, you have yours. You have always remained respectful in the conversation. Shouldn't we move the conversation to a higher level rather than take up so much of eachothers' time? Please advise. I've added this page to my watch list for this conversation. Ste4k 21:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Though we try to make them as clear as possible, our policies and guidelines are still open to misinterpretation. While I wouldn't presume to say that my knowledge and interpretation of them is always perfect, I do note that other veteran editors have also expressed views similar to mine in this matter. I'm not sure that a content RfC is required, but there's no harm in having one if anyone wants one. However a user RfC is looking increasingly necessary because so many editors are raising questions about your behavior. -Will Beback 21:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

A behavioral dispute hasn't anything to do with a dispute over content. I only recognize one actual editor (yourself) that is participating in that article for the sake of the article rather than some personal off-topic vendetta. (i.e. participating in a fashion regarding wp:ver wp:rs wp:or and content, not to preclude other editors that are simply performing maintenance at any level). Ste4k 22:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The two types of disputes are often linked, even though they handled separately. Too bad you don't exclude yourself from those who are engaged in "personal off-topic vendettas". ;) I can't carry the whole load of neutrality on my back. -Will Beback 22:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I have recently been advised by a few detached admins in e-mail that "ignoring" is not against policy as was previously suggested by those whom would have me believe otherwise. A statement in that regard is on my talk page. Being new I was under a different impression, but have been educated since on how to correctly not-react to trolls. Ste4k 22:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Compromise

The compromise was more of like a you win-I loose situation. You stated that the name stay at Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California and there be no infobox. That is not a compromise. A compromise is where one aspect changes in favor of one group, and one aspect changes in the favor of another group. I am not the only wrongdoer in this situation, there are many people who have done wrong in this situation. Devonran had 2 3rr's in the matter, so did Adambiswanger1, and OC31113. And yes, I did lead the list at 3 3rr's (but one of them I commited 1 revert and OC31113 committed 2, and you added them together to suspend us both)Many people have offended, and called eachother names, which is a violation of the Misplaced Pages rules. Some parties have lied about the naming rules of Misplaced Pages, and some people have offended others by saying rude comments; yet you used selective punishment to scorn people, while subjectively choosing who to punish, and who not to punish for performing the same inappropriate behavior. So, I would be willing to perform a compromise, but I am not willing to just give in to everyone, when everyone is at fault in one way or another. --Ericsaindon2 22:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Ok, so could we put a little infobox like the one on Ladera Ranch, California (which is down at the top of the demographic category) onto the Anaheim Hills page? --Ericsaindon2 22:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, I have had it with trying to address the same audience of 2 people on that talk page. I guess I am fine with the way it is now, at Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California with an infobox. If you state a compromise, which might be a little more effective, I will support it if it is actually a compromise and not a all or none deal. All I will get is crap from the only 2 people who still care about the page, so there is no point unless you write it, because people seem to treat you like some god. And I was not being disrespectful to Coolcaesar, he seems to like the thrill of starting arguements, making bold and uncalled for statements, and accusing others of being sockpuppets. He is sort of a "pot-stirrer" so if I were to make any sort of compromise plead, I know he would reject it just for the sake of the thrill of irritation. --Ericsaindon2 22:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

And, why do you and Coolcaesar seem to have such a close relationship where you are willing to act as his patrol officer while he instigates a fight, and you jump in, always in his defense, and punish the people defending their viewpoints? I was just curious because I have never seen an admin and a lowly, unauthoritive editor live in such harmony all the time on the site, and in the arguments they partake in. Well, anyways, what do you want a proposal or a compromise to be that you see to be fair, so that it can be addressed on the talk page before I make a fool of myself with trying to start a new peace treaty. I dont understand why you refuse to promote, and address a new compromise on the page, when you and Coolcaesar were the ones that had the problem with the infobox, and the name that it sat at for almost two years, Anaheim Hills, California. --Ericsaindon2 07:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering about first and second

I've been writing this article for twelve days. ¿What do you do after you second something? 凄刕列凥凝判凉几? 决冒冡凕冾凅 . . .

The fate of Charles Buell Anderson

There's a question at talk:Endeavor Academy#Original Research about why you merged the articles. Apparently Ste4k doubts that there is any connection between the two topics. If the topics are, in fact, unrelated then we should undo the merge. -Will Beback 21:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I want to thank you for you interest in preserving this information. I don't think Ste4k is interested in undoing this merge. She seems much more interested in simply purifying WP of the information, and the merge appears to simply be a means she is using for this, along with WP policy as she sees it. I understand her wish to improve Misplaced Pages, and although I do not oppose Ste4k for that sake, I can't agree with her actions. I can't agree because her actions do not make sense to me, despite my becoming quite familiar with WP policy. —Antireconciler 04:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Rompe

Rompe (talk · contribs) has done a bunch of page moves to non-standard names (e.g. Boyle Heights, Los Angeles, California to Boyle Heights. Since I don't have the admin bit, you or someone else will have to do the corrections.

I know that when I first joined the Misplaced Pages, it was very clear that communities within an incorporated city in the United States should be named . It was either in the MOS or at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cities, but I think that it was the latter. Sometime in the last year and a half, without any discussion, someone deleted that guideline. It may be time to initiate an RFC on the issue to settle the issue of what consensus is. Judging from all the debates that I've seen for individual communities I have no doubt that for non-famous communities, the overwhelming consensus will be for . For more famous communities (e.g. Hollywood, La Jolla, etc), it will probably be a smaller majority, but possibly not a strong consensus. In my opinion, however, those are the communities that need the extended names the most to make sure that the casual Misplaced Pages readers do not confuse those communities with official cities. 14:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

User:OC31113

Since you one of the involved parties for Ericsaindon2's RFaR, you might want to do a Request for checkuser. I'm not sure what an "Open arbitration proceedings" is. If it only includes accepted arbitration proceedings, you should visit the above link, but if it also includes intiated, but not accepted, RFaRs, then you should ask at the RFaR page for a Checkuser. I am especially concerned about User:OC31113, whose pedantic verbosity, if nothing else, suggests that it is the same editor as User:Ericsaindon2. Since they only keep the information for a limited amount of time (a week?), you should ask soon. 15:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

thanks

I noticed the change: "founded in 1992 as a subsidiary". Thanks. That is a complete different meaning than what it said before. Ste4k 02:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

List of lists of lists

Hey Will, I responded to your comment. Let me know what you think (here) Regards, AdamBiswanger1 02:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your support!

Barnstarred!

The Original Barnstar For good editing over a range of areas, and especially for watching over the interests of the Misplaced Pages. Herostratus 04:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Ste4k

I completely understand your advice not to edit war, but I am at a loss here. I made a legitimate (and in my opinion obviously correct) comment on one of her edits and she "reverts" it without a hint of discussion. I'm relatively new to Misplaced Pages and maybe this kind of thing happens a lot, but to me it is aggravating in the extreme. I realize that 7+ reversions of her deletion from the talk page is not constructive, but what should I do? At this point I refuse to accept her behavior. -Nscheffey 08:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)