Talk:Organic food - Misplaced Pages

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Organic food was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 11, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
February 22, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 15, 2007	Good article reassessment	Delisted

Current status: Delisted good article

To-do list for Organic food: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2012-11-30

Add Images of fresh, organic fruit - or from Farmer's markets - something that captures organic food and is interesting to look at!
Deal with "Citation Needed" notices
- Sentences already with them - Try to find a reference online for them and put them on this page. If a reference can't quickly or easily be found...Remove all bias even if well meant.
- Sentences that need them - Find sentences that are debatable, controversial and list them as "citation needed". Then follow the previous instruction right above.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 30 November 2012. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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Index

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4	Archive 5	Archive 6

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Organic Food

I think adding a little overview about organic farming in the first section would be beneficial to the viewers. Right after it says "Organic foods are produced using methods for organic farming." I suggest we add the following: "Organic farming can be defined as "a system that is designed and managed to produce agricultural products by... using, where possible, cultural biological and mechanical methods, as opposed to using substances, to fulfill any specific function within the system so as to: maintain long-term soil fertility; increase soil biological activity; ensure effective pest management; recycle wastes to return nutrients to the land; provide attentive care for farm animals; and handle the agricultural products without the use of extraneous synthetic additives or processing in accordance with the Act and the regulations in this part."Kjayh (talk) 16:02, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

"What Is the True Value of Buying "Organic" Foods?" Home. Web. 21 Nov. 2014. <http://www.americanrunning.org/w/article/what-is-the-true-value-of-buying-organic-foods>.

american running is not a reliable source for information about farming. And there is already a "see main" at the top of that section where readers can all the detail they want about organic farming. Jytdog (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

okay I just thought that it may be beneficial to the viewers if we added in just a brief summary regarding organic farming, so they would know what it all entails and did not have to find that information out by going to a different wikipedia article.Kjayh (talk) 18:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Customer Safety

"The food industry does all that it can to change its foods with preservatives, additives, dyes, flavoring, colorings, and texturing with chemicals so they look as desirable for purchase and consumption as possible. The government has banned a number of food additives, mainly because of the implications of cancer-causing effects, though it has done so reluctantly and very slowly. In agriculture, today's crops yield their bounty with the aid of chemicals in the form of artificial fertilizers and herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, and other pesticides."Kjayh (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Campbell, Andrew W. "Organic Vs Conventional." Alternative Therapies In Health & Medicine 18.6 (2012): 8-9. Consumer Health Complete - EBSCOhost. Web. 28 Sept. 2014.

This makes health claims, but is not sourced to a reference that meets the requirements of WP:MEDRS, which is the guideline for all health-related content in WP. Thank you for talking by the way! Jytdog (talk) 16:53, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

The passage does not make health claims, but fails rs because it is an editorial. Furthermore, I do not see its relevance. Some people buy organic food because they think they are avoiding the toxins used in conventional food production. We can certainly say that, provided we also mention that mainstream science does not see any danger. Also, this is only one of the reasons some people choose organic products. TFD (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

"cancer-causing" is a claim about health. Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Saying that the government banned an additive because of the "implications of cancer-causing effects", is not a claim about health, but a claim about government actions. Using your interpretation, we would have the delete the article Great Famine (Ireland) because it is not sourced to any medical journals and infers that food is a source of nutrition. TFD (talk) 19:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

not worth arguing about. we both agree the proposed content doesn't fly. Jytdog (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, technically there is a claim about health being made in there as too. It's sure notable when governments do something, but they can often make choices that are on the WP:FRINGE side of things too. If someone really wanted to include that government X has a stance on topic Y, then it needs to given thought under due weight. That would mean in some cases specifying that the stance is supported by the government even though the science says otherwise. At least in your example, it would be an issue of deciding whether to even include the content, or include it with some qualifiers about what the science says. It's not always possible to look at claims from a government isolation of the relevant field. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

To my opinion, the statement is true but the relevancy for this article is somewhat doubtful. On the other hand, the following discussion shows nicely how the "keep it out of the article"-policy works. The Banner talk 21:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

The fact is that the U.S. government has banned additives found to be harmful. The quote however implies that there are dangerous additives that the government has not banned and therefore conventionally produced food should be avoided. Misplaced Pages articles however should not imply anything. TFD (talk) 21:53, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Organic Trade Association as a Source

The website referenced states that the OTA's purpose is as follows"

"The Organic Trade Association (OTA) is the membership-based business association for the organic industry in North America. OTA’s mission is to promote and protect organic trade to benefit the environment, farmers, the public, and the economy. OTA envisions organic products becoming a significant part of everyday life, enhancing people's lives and the environment.

OTA represents businesses across the organic supply chain and addresses all things organic, including food, fiber/textiles, personal care products, and new sectors as they develop. Over sixty percent of OTA trade members are small businesses."

As advocates for "Organic" businesses, they cannot serve as a reliable source for the statement that "Natural is not the same as organic". They are talking their book when they make statements of this type.

Formerly 98 (talk) 02:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In that case you should also silence the opponents... The Banner talk 02:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There nothing in the purpose that says "to misrepresent information." The fact that they are sre advocates is an issue of neutrality, rather than reliability. This is a pretty uncontroversial statement anyway. TFD (talk) 02:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Advocacy groups generally aren't considered reliable sources for content like this. If it were something that had a lower burden for weight, opinions from advocacy groups can be stated as such, but not in this case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Labels

Unfortunately, user:Formerly 98 is edit warring, engaging in unfriendly behaviour and whitewashing of inconvenient information. In fact he is edit warring over the following statement: Overall, the label "organic food" has more meaning than does the label "natural food."

It is not the first time that I have to complain that the article is seriously POV due to the permanent removals of any positive facts.

I admit that I reverted an unsourced statement, just to be able to add sources. But even with three sources it is straight removed. How many sources do tou want then, Formerly 98? Are even universities not trustworthy? The Banner talk 02:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's start by striking the personal attacks and accusations in violation of WP:GF and WP:TALK. When you have done that we can discuss the article. Formerly 98 (talk) 02:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Just start with explaining why it has to be removed in violation of WP:NPOV. The Banner talk 02:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Guys, the statement is far from controversial. There are several existing references that support it at the natural foods article. It's widely known that the organic label has at least some teeth to it whereas "natural" means almost nothing legally. Although I do not plan to spend a bunch of time amassing more references for the statement, it is obvious that the ledes of the two articles should mention each other, from an ontological standpoint, because in terms of critical thinking, if you cannot state why they are not the same thing, then you must ask why they aren't covered in one and the same article. Separate but linked articles ontologically means either (1) separate but related concepts or (2) an ontological error called content forking. Obviously in this instance, having separate articles is valid. Well OK then—state how they compare or contrast, and link their ledes accordingly. This is not all that subjective or complicated. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And by the way, if anyone tries to keep the ledes from mentioning, comparing, or contrasting each other, then I will just stick a {{distinguish}} hatnote, or some other relevant hatnote, above them. There will be critically minded hyperlinking either way. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

whatever is going on in the natural foods article is going on there. in this article, there is no content about in the body about difference in "meaning" (whatever that means) between the two, and sticking an unsourced, vague statement in the lead of this article makes no sense. of somebody wants to develop some well-sourced content in the body of this article about the difference in "meaning" then it might make sense to include that in the lead of this article, if it is important enough in the overall article. the WP:LEAD is just a summary of the article. the body comes first. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There are several issues with the proposed addition.

The original source was by its own admission an advocacy group for organic food producers.
The meaning of the proposed addition is not clear. What exactly is meant by the 'the term "organic" has more meaning that 'natural'"? Are you referring to how it was grown, statutory definitions, or differences in health implications? If the latter you will need a WP:MEDRS compliant source.
Third, as Jytdog points out, the lede is supposed to summarize the body of the article.

Formerly 98 (talk) 06:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you are well aware that there is a difference between "natural" and "organic" and there are laws in the U.S. about using the label "organic." Instead of pretending that you are unaware of the difference, just find a better source. TFD (talk) 07:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think this is what Banner is attempting to discuss. Here is a (very brief) blurb from the FDA on what the term natural means (http://www.fda.gov/aboutfda/transparency/basics/ucm214868.htm) and here is what the USDA says about food products labeled as organic (http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.html) as well as a brief commentary from a MEDLINE-indexed review (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4025038/). The United States' EPA also briefly discusses the meaning of organic here (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/food/organics.htm). Here is a specific page from the USDA comparing/contrasting various terms of this nature (e.g., natural, organic, cage-free, free-range, humane, etc.) http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateC&navID=NationalOrganicProgram&leftNav=NationalOrganicProgram&page=NOPConsumers&description=Consumers&acct=nopgeninfo TylerDurden8823 (talk) 08:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98, we are discussing food labels and the reliability of those labels. That has nothing to do with health claims and certainly not with the often misused WP:MEDRS. The Banner talk 11:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes this is not about health. This is about basic editing, namely WP:VERIFY, WP:OR, and WP:LEAD. If you want content in the article about the difference in labels, add sourced content to the body. If the resulting content rises to the importance that it should be in the lead, add a summary to the lead. Basic WP editing. Jytdog (talk) 13:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

For your info: Mr. Formerly 98 removed a sentence with three sources. Not with an explanation but with a warning that I can be blocked. The Banner talk 17:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

really, you think "organicisworthit.org" is a good source? come on. the nutrition.org and the tufts source seem pretty good. I think some content in the body like" "The food label "natural" does not mean the food is organic." Then it would be closely tied to the article. I will add that. and yes you were edit warring. hopefully this lays the matter to rest. Jytdog (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that was an error on my part, I did not read carefully as you had described your edit as a reversion. So I apologize for that. On the other hand, your accusations of a "whitewash" (of what exactly?) remain on this page in violation of Talk page guidelines. Please correct this. Also please note that my comment that the addition of new material requires consensus was a second valid argument against your edit. You were repeatedly adding material that had been removed by two other editors. Formerly 98 (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up. The Banner talk 00:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Banner you have been asked several times to stop the personal attacks. I wasn't going to weigh in at ANI with difs, now I will do. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality

Apparently the neutrality is disputed on this page. There is a discussion on WP:ANI#WP:CIVIL, edit warring, and user talk page violations by The Banner that discusses it. The Banner accused other users of abusing WP:MEDRS to bias the article negatively by removing any content claiming that organic food has health benefits. Jytdog argued that the scientific community has decided that any health benefits from going organic may caused by various factors and therefore the article is neutral because it reflects the opinions from reliable sources. Clearly the neutrality of this article is disputed so I will be adding a {{neutrality}} template. --Mr. Guye (talk) 22:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for opening a section. Please identify any reliable source per WP:MEDRS, that can be used to support a claim that organic food is healthier than conventionally produced food. If you can bring such a source I am sure we will gladly include it in the article. I do suggest that you actually read the article and the sources in it, and the Talk page discussion and archives. I'll leave the tag on for now. Thanks again for opening a discussion. I await the sources! And by the way, the existence of a dissident editor does not mean that an article fails NPOV. Banner's position has not had consensus here. And it is not just me working on this page, as a glance through the Talk page above will show; you are getting pretty much everything wrong in your characterization here. Jytdog (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I removed the flag as the basis of the challenge is a challenge to a Misplaced Pages policy. You might as well challenge the neutrality of the article based on an editor requiring that sources be added to statements. WP:MEDRS is Misplaced Pages policy. Formerly 98 (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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