Talk:Organic food - Misplaced Pages

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Ideal sources for Misplaced Pages's health content are defined in the guideline Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Organic food.

PubMed provides review articles from the past five years (limit to free review articles)
The TRIP database provides clinical publications about evidence-based medicine.
Other potential sources include: Centre for Reviews and Dissemination and CDC

Organic food was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 11, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
February 22, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 15, 2007	Good article reassessment	Delisted

Current status: Delisted good article

To-do list for Organic food: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2012-11-30

Add Images of fresh, organic fruit - or from Farmer's markets - something that captures organic food and is interesting to look at!
Deal with "Citation Needed" notices
- Sentences already with them - Try to find a reference online for them and put them on this page. If a reference can't quickly or easily be found...Remove all bias even if well meant.
- Sentences that need them - Find sentences that are debatable, controversial and list them as "citation needed". Then follow the previous instruction right above.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 30 November 2012. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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Customer Safety

"The food industry does all that it can to change its foods with preservatives, additives, dyes, flavoring, colorings, and texturing with chemicals so they look as desirable for purchase and consumption as possible. The government has banned a number of food additives, mainly because of the implications of cancer-causing effects, though it has done so reluctantly and very slowly. In agriculture, today's crops yield their bounty with the aid of chemicals in the form of artificial fertilizers and herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, and other pesticides."Kjayh (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Campbell, Andrew W. "Organic Vs Conventional." Alternative Therapies In Health & Medicine 18.6 (2012): 8-9. Consumer Health Complete - EBSCOhost. Web. 28 Sept. 2014.

This makes health claims, but is not sourced to a reference that meets the requirements of WP:MEDRS, which is the guideline for all health-related content in WP. Thank you for talking by the way! Jytdog (talk) 16:53, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

The passage does not make health claims, but fails rs because it is an editorial. Furthermore, I do not see its relevance. Some people buy organic food because they think they are avoiding the toxins used in conventional food production. We can certainly say that, provided we also mention that mainstream science does not see any danger. Also, this is only one of the reasons some people choose organic products. TFD (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

"cancer-causing" is a claim about health. Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Saying that the government banned an additive because of the "implications of cancer-causing effects", is not a claim about health, but a claim about government actions. Using your interpretation, we would have the delete the article Great Famine (Ireland) because it is not sourced to any medical journals and infers that food is a source of nutrition. TFD (talk) 19:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

not worth arguing about. we both agree the proposed content doesn't fly. Jytdog (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, technically there is a claim about health being made in there as too. It's sure notable when governments do something, but they can often make choices that are on the WP:FRINGE side of things too. If someone really wanted to include that government X has a stance on topic Y, then it needs to given thought under due weight. That would mean in some cases specifying that the stance is supported by the government even though the science says otherwise. At least in your example, it would be an issue of deciding whether to even include the content, or include it with some qualifiers about what the science says. It's not always possible to look at claims from a government isolation of the relevant field. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

To my opinion, the statement is true but the relevancy for this article is somewhat doubtful. On the other hand, the following discussion shows nicely how the "keep it out of the article"-policy works. The Banner talk 21:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

The fact is that the U.S. government has banned additives found to be harmful. The quote however implies that there are dangerous additives that the government has not banned and therefore conventionally produced food should be avoided. Misplaced Pages articles however should not imply anything. TFD (talk) 21:53, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Organic Trade Association as a Source

The website referenced states that the OTA's purpose is as follows"

"The Organic Trade Association (OTA) is the membership-based business association for the organic industry in North America. OTA’s mission is to promote and protect organic trade to benefit the environment, farmers, the public, and the economy. OTA envisions organic products becoming a significant part of everyday life, enhancing people's lives and the environment.

OTA represents businesses across the organic supply chain and addresses all things organic, including food, fiber/textiles, personal care products, and new sectors as they develop. Over sixty percent of OTA trade members are small businesses."

As advocates for "Organic" businesses, they cannot serve as a reliable source for the statement that "Natural is not the same as organic". They are talking their book when they make statements of this type.

Formerly 98 (talk) 02:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In that case you should also silence the opponents... The Banner talk 02:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There nothing in the purpose that says "to misrepresent information." The fact that they are sre advocates is an issue of neutrality, rather than reliability. This is a pretty uncontroversial statement anyway. TFD (talk) 02:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Advocacy groups generally aren't considered reliable sources for content like this. If it were something that had a lower burden for weight, opinions from advocacy groups can be stated as such, but not in this case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Labels

Unfortunately, user:Formerly 98 is edit warring, engaging in unfriendly behaviour and whitewashing of inconvenient information. In fact he is edit warring over the following statement: Overall, the label "organic food" has more meaning than does the label "natural food."

It is not the first time that I have to complain that the article is seriously POV due to the permanent removals of any positive facts.

I admit that I reverted an unsourced statement, just to be able to add sources. But even with three sources it is straight removed. How many sources do tou want then, Formerly 98? Are even universities not trustworthy? The Banner talk 02:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's start by striking the personal attacks and accusations in violation of WP:GF and WP:TALK. When you have done that we can discuss the article. Formerly 98 (talk) 02:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Just start with explaining why it has to be removed in violation of WP:NPOV. The Banner talk 02:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Guys, the statement is far from controversial. There are several existing references that support it at the natural foods article. It's widely known that the organic label has at least some teeth to it whereas "natural" means almost nothing legally. Although I do not plan to spend a bunch of time amassing more references for the statement, it is obvious that the ledes of the two articles should mention each other, from an ontological standpoint, because in terms of critical thinking, if you cannot state why they are not the same thing, then you must ask why they aren't covered in one and the same article. Separate but linked articles ontologically means either (1) separate but related concepts or (2) an ontological error called content forking. Obviously in this instance, having separate articles is valid. Well OK then—state how they compare or contrast, and link their ledes accordingly. This is not all that subjective or complicated. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

And by the way, if anyone tries to keep the ledes from mentioning, comparing, or contrasting each other, then I will just stick a {{distinguish}} hatnote, or some other relevant hatnote, above them. There will be critically minded hyperlinking either way. Quercus solaris (talk) 03:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

whatever is going on in the natural foods article is going on there. in this article, there is no content about in the body about difference in "meaning" (whatever that means) between the two, and sticking an unsourced, vague statement in the lead of this article makes no sense. of somebody wants to develop some well-sourced content in the body of this article about the difference in "meaning" then it might make sense to include that in the lead of this article, if it is important enough in the overall article. the WP:LEAD is just a summary of the article. the body comes first. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

There are several issues with the proposed addition.

The original source was by its own admission an advocacy group for organic food producers.
The meaning of the proposed addition is not clear. What exactly is meant by the 'the term "organic" has more meaning that 'natural'"? Are you referring to how it was grown, statutory definitions, or differences in health implications? If the latter you will need a WP:MEDRS compliant source.
Third, as Jytdog points out, the lede is supposed to summarize the body of the article.

Formerly 98 (talk) 06:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you are well aware that there is a difference between "natural" and "organic" and there are laws in the U.S. about using the label "organic." Instead of pretending that you are unaware of the difference, just find a better source. TFD (talk) 07:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think this is what Banner is attempting to discuss. Here is a (very brief) blurb from the FDA on what the term natural means (http://www.fda.gov/aboutfda/transparency/basics/ucm214868.htm) and here is what the USDA says about food products labeled as organic (http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.html) as well as a brief commentary from a MEDLINE-indexed review (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4025038/). The United States' EPA also briefly discusses the meaning of organic here (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/food/organics.htm). Here is a specific page from the USDA comparing/contrasting various terms of this nature (e.g., natural, organic, cage-free, free-range, humane, etc.) http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateC&navID=NationalOrganicProgram&leftNav=NationalOrganicProgram&page=NOPConsumers&description=Consumers&acct=nopgeninfo TylerDurden8823 (talk) 08:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98, we are discussing food labels and the reliability of those labels. That has nothing to do with health claims and certainly not with the often misused WP:MEDRS. The Banner talk 11:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes this is not about health. This is about basic editing, namely WP:VERIFY, WP:OR, and WP:LEAD. If you want content in the article about the difference in labels, add sourced content to the body. If the resulting content rises to the importance that it should be in the lead, add a summary to the lead. Basic WP editing. Jytdog (talk) 13:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

For your info: Mr. Formerly 98 removed a sentence with three sources. Not with an explanation but with a warning that I can be blocked. The Banner talk 17:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

really, you think "organicisworthit.org" is a good source? come on. the nutrition.org and the tufts source seem pretty good. I think some content in the body like" "The food label "natural" does not mean the food is organic." Then it would be closely tied to the article. I will add that. and yes you were edit warring. hopefully this lays the matter to rest. Jytdog (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that was an error on my part, I did not read carefully as you had described your edit as a reversion. So I apologize for that. On the other hand, your accusations of a "whitewash" (of what exactly?) remain on this page in violation of Talk page guidelines. Please correct this. Also please note that my comment that the addition of new material requires consensus was a second valid argument against your edit. You were repeatedly adding material that had been removed by two other editors. Formerly 98 (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up. The Banner talk 00:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Banner you have been asked several times to stop the personal attacks. I wasn't going to weigh in at ANI with difs, now I will do. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality

Apparently the neutrality is disputed on this page. There is a discussion on WP:ANI#WP:CIVIL, edit warring, and user talk page violations by The Banner that discusses it. The Banner accused other users of abusing WP:MEDRS to bias the article negatively by removing any content claiming that organic food has health benefits. Jytdog argued that the scientific community has decided that any health benefits from going organic may caused by various factors and therefore the article is neutral because it reflects the opinions from reliable sources. Clearly the neutrality of this article is disputed so I will be adding a {{neutrality}} template. --Mr. Guye (talk) 22:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for opening a section. Please identify any reliable source per WP:MEDRS, that can be used to support a claim that organic food is healthier than conventionally produced food. If you can bring such a source I am sure we will gladly include it in the article. I do suggest that you actually read the article and the sources in it, and the Talk page discussion and archives. I'll leave the tag on for now, but if you don't come back with something substantial, source-wise, it will need to come off in a few days. Thanks again for opening a discussion. I await the sources! And by the way, the existence of a dissident editor does not mean that an article fails NPOV. Banner's position has not had consensus here. And it is not just me working on this page, as a glance through the Talk page and its archives will show; you are getting pretty much everything wrong in your characterization here. Jytdog (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I removed the flag as the basis of the challenge is a challenge to a Misplaced Pages policy. You might as well challenge the neutrality of the article based on an editor requiring that sources be added to statements. WP:MEDRS is Misplaced Pages policy. Formerly 98 (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

well, its a guideline, but a damn important one. :) Jytdog (talk) 23:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I would urge people to stop reverting in the meantime. Both sides of the argument have merits, it's not urgent, and hopefully we can discuss this without too much shouting.

bobrayner (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting idea. Can we also discuss the application of WP:MEDRS on an article far more related to food and agriculture than to the medical world? Can we also discuss the scientific results and testing as according to Jytdog they are unreliable "due to the messiness of reality"? The Banner talk 23:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Mayo Clinic says: Organic regulations ban or severely restrict the use of food additives, processing aids (substances used during processing, but not added directly to food) and fortifying agents commonly used in nonorganic foods, including preservatives, artificial sweeteners, colorings and flavorings, and monosodium glutamate. Plus, I added the neutrality template not because I personally believe the article is biased, but because there was a disagreement already existing on its neutrality. I added it because the neutrality of this article is disputed. --Mr. Guye (talk) 23:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

none of what you quote from Mayo says anything about an effect on health. Jytdog (talk) 23:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

We should remove the biased assertions from the lede that organic food isn't healthier and doesn't taste better, both of which are rather dubious and in any event present in Misplaced Pages's authoritative voice a conclusion of a disputed fact. It's fair to include them in a subsection about the medical community's response, if that is indeed the response. Inasmuch as this is an article about food, not medicine, it misapplies MEDRS to use it here — it makes as much sense as citing literature to proclaim whether Spanish food is healthier or better tasting than Italian. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Those statements are sourced to the best kind of sources available, per RS and MEDRS. See also Misplaced Pages:Controversial_articles#Raise_source_quality Jytdog (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll add that lots of people bring very strong assumptions to this article. Please check them at the door, and deal with what reliable sources say. This article is the product of the good faith work of lots of people, following the spirit of WP's policies and guidelines. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Those sources aren't entirely apt, regardless of their quality. This seems to be a use of medical sources for non-medical statements, for certain about taste. Why would it be necessary in the lede to have a paragraph basically saying that organic food is bunk? - Wikidemon (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Our job is to summarize the scientific consensus (i.e., review articles) as reliable sources describe it. That's why you are seeing sentences as you describe, because that is the scientific consensus. There's no bias to that from an NPOV perspective. We generally present authoritative findings from such sources in Misplaced Pages's voice when dealing with assertions of fact at that level, so the things you mentioned above aren't really an issue when you base the content on the sources. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so you see the problem, right? Our job is to create an encyclopedia, not to summarize scientific consensus. Misplaced Pages does not generally speak in a scientific voice. That is perhaps inevitable in articles about science, but in articles about food it's downright silly to opine in a scientific voice as to whether one particular food is tastier than another. I don't see any chefs, food critics, or food writers sourced on that point, for what that's worth, and they are more authoritative than scientists on matters of food preference. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that when there are objectively measureable observables we are well within the purview of science, and our job is exactly to summarize the scientific consensus. We don't need expert opinion on "tastiness" like we do on the relative merits of Cubism. You simply put the food out without labeling which is conventional and which is organic, and ask people which they like better. If study after study of this type doesn't show any difference, then Thomas Keller's expert opinion is flying in the face of a directly observable fact. Formerly 98 (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

The two go hand in hand as our job is to ascribe due WP:WEIGHT. Scientific consensus on a topic is about the highest degree of weight that can be given to something. There are many branches of science, so areas of food science for things such as taste would still fall to the experts on those fields (health for medical researchers, etc.). Chefs, etc. generally wouldn't be reliable sources as they're likely not using properly designed experiments to determine differences in taste. If views are pushed that are not supported by reliable scientific sources, they are generally considered WP:FRINGE (also see WP:PSCI) content and we don't give that any weight. That's why we summarize the scientific consensus so we satisfy NPOV as much as one could hope to. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:40, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Once science has spoken about what's tasty it doesn't matter what food people say? That's not how an encyclopedia works, or reality for what that's worth. Scientific consensus is perhaps the highest weight on matters within the scope of science, but assuredly not on matters outside the scope of science. To suggest that the entire food community is fringe if it doesn't agree with science is a rather extreme opinion. For what it's worth, and without (yet) checking sources, the weight of the food community probably agrees that everything else being equal food grown using organic standards is not tastier or superior to food grown using methods that do not qualify as organic. They would also say that everything else is not equal, that organic suppliers tend to be higher quality, but that large factory farms making lower quality product are beginning to go for organic certification, and that there are many other small high quality suppliers that don't care about the organic designation. That's a lot more relevant to the subject of organic food than a controlled lab experiment (or literature review of the same) testing whether people can tell the difference. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:45, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yup, there's a lot of assumptions being made there, some of which are common misconceptions for those not yet familiar with the topic, but I would suggest reading the sources provided in the article for some background. You might be underestimating the scope of science from what it seems you're saying. Most things I could respond to would be rather forumy right now so I'll leave them be, but I will clarify that fringe was with regard to views contrary to the scientific consensus from a weight perspective. The "food community" would also be more of a question of what such a source would be reliable for. Those are two different things which go towards the nuance required when dealing with scientific content. If you're interested in proposing content, I'd suggest reading the talk page archives a bit as some topics have been covered rather extensively and then go ahead with content to discuss. To assess whether something is reliably sourced and is appropriately weighted, we need to have content to focus the discussion on. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Somebody reverted my attempt to clarify that these claims are made from a scientific point of view rather than an encyclopedic one, so I have re-added the POV tag. Seriously, the notion that scientific consensus establishes matters of what tastes good is ridiculous. If you think that science trumps human perception you're pretty fringe. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't re-add the tag, it would be disruptive. What other kind of evidence for taste is there, something like this maybe? Alexbrn 06:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't remove the tag. Seriously, there is some weird editing going on here, crazy time on the encyclopedia. Evidence is not the encyclopedic standard, it is the weight of reliable sources. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:53, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

the new editors are treating "science" like it is some kind of fringe point of view. We humans have developed methods to investigate reality - to know if certain kinds of claims about the world around us, are true or false. Those tools are called "the scientific method". And yes we look to and cite the scientific literature to investigate questions about how organic food and conventional food may or may not be different, and whether or not they make people who eat them more or less healthy. Ditto, we use those tools to do experiments to see if people find any difference in taste. What other tools do the new editors propose be used - what field should we as editors consult -- to look for answers to those questions? I note that no one here has responded to my request for additional sources on which to generate new or different content. Please provide sources supporting your perspectives on organic food so we can discuss them. Without them, your claims are clearly your personal POV. It is fine to have a personal POV but it doesn't belong in WP and is no basis for tagging nor for generating content. This is exactly the problem that has led to the ANI. Jytdog (talk) 12:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is very useful to add the sources again. In the past, they were always brushed aside with the MEDRS-excuse. By the way: I still mis a reply on your own statement that scientific research is in basic unreliable "due to the messiness of reality". The Banner talk 14:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

not quite sure how to respond to that Banner. I am not asking people to add sources to the article, I'm just asking them to present them here (they can of course directly add them to the article if they want -- that is just not what I am asking) If editors want to change or introduce new content or claim that the article is biased, they need sources for the new/different content or showing that some perspective not represented here is as valid based on the same quality of sources. That is WP101. With regard to your question you mischaracterize what I said, which is that the science is too messy to support the kind of positive claims you have wanted to make. i have just been paraphrasing the first paragraphs here: Organic_food#Chemical_composition and here: Organic_food#Health_and_safety. Jytdog (talk) 14:29, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

This "new editor" has been editing Misplaced Pages for seven years now, and knows a toxic dysfunctional editing environment when they see one. The weirdly condescending lecture about the value of science, the scientific method trumping other types of knowledge because it alone finds truth and reality, and other bla bla nonsense is a case in point. I have more productive things than to do battle with dogmatic science proponents, but the over-reliance of dubious, inapt medical citations in a food article like this is a strange, largely unencyclopedic point of view. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Huh? The article has plenty of non (hard) science content: terminology, law, economics, etc. I'm not sure what exactly is being proposed - is there some good source on the taste of organic food for example that would help? Alexbrn 20:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

"new" to this discussion. no comment on how long you've been on WP nor what you have done. With regard to your experience, believe me, I have plenty of experience with people who parachute into controversial articles with strong personal opinions and zero sources. But I am sorry to see you go, if that is what you are choosing to do. If you choose to stay, I still look forward to hearing about you with regard to sourcing. Jytdog (talk) 20:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Note - I just went looking for new sources myself and found a review from 2014 that was much more positive than reviews to date. Boy you guys could have had a field day had you actually gone and looked for sources and made me look like I was really biased. Anyway, I added content from it. That perspective remains an outlier in the literature, so the article hasn't completely flipped, but Banner should be happier. Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I cannot speak for The Banner, but I not advocating a pro-organic food agenda. Rather, my point is that the scientific POV and attendant sourcing demands here are an inappropriate approach to a food article. This talk page has a wikiproject medicine template on top, asserting that organic food is a medical subject. Misplaced Pages has seen its share of WP:BATTLEs over articles seen as health-related, which perhaps explains the content problems here. I'm aware that there is an intersection between food and health claims about food, and certainly the scientific approach is appropriate when discussing those health claims. But that is not the primary notability of the subject. The organic food movement is only partly related to consumers' health concerns. As yet another analogy, people make health claims about blueberries as well. The nutrition and health aspects of blueberries are indeed treated in their own section, yet there is no need to add stilted language to the lede announcing that the evidence is insufficient to support claims that blueberries are healthy, or that claims that blueberries are tasty are unsupported by the evidence. - Wikidemon (talk) 14:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikidemon I am glad you acknowledge that the health claims need MEDRS sourcing - that has been the crux of the problem. Health claim about blueberries are also subject to MEDRS! I don't think any reliable source would deny that eating blueberries is part of a healthy diet; saying that blueberries cure cancer (for example) is quite another thing. And really, please do read the sources we use in the article - there is paltry evidence that eating organic is healthier than eating conventional food. As you can imagine, organic "fans" have pushed for language the opposite; in my view those folks are the POV-pushers, bringing their assumptions to the table that organic "must" be healthier. I'd like to add that if you want to take a shot at writing the lead more elegantly I would be very open to that. Jytdog (talk) 23:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Win the day by adding the truth and getting topic banned for being disruptive? No thanks. My trust in this article and its main editors is gone. I have accepted by now that it is hopelessly POV and that you can get topic banned by pointing at that. Because that is what is happening. The Banner talk 15:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Banner you are on the edge of getting topic banned for your behavior, not because of the content argument. I'm sorry you cannot see that. Jytdog (talk) 23:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Because you fail to acknowledge that it is in fact a content-conflict as that would be inconvenient for your cause. The Banner talk 12:47, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is a link to "Are organic foods better for my health?" on the Dietitians of Canada website. It is a tertiary source so while probably not useful as a source in the article, it provides an example of how the article should present the intormation. It says, "There is not enough scientific evidence to say that organic food is more nutritious than non-organic food or that there are any health benefits to eating organic foods." It does say that organic food was found to have slightly higher levels of some nutrients, but they are insignificant and we should say that. TFD (talk) 15:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks TFD. The article does say exactly that already. Jytdog (talk) 23:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes I know. My point is that the article should say what other reasonable tertiary sources say. TFD (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Reasons for organic standard, customer reasoning -- POV

The existing text has an unusual, editorial, and fairly limited perspective on Organic Food. What is left out most definitely creates a POV problem. For example:

Public Perception Section-- there is information about false perceptions (some) people may have, but there is nothing concerning perceptions about wildlife and environmental impacts, farm worker health, antibiotic resistance, animal confinement, etc.

Health and Safety Section -- there is information about false perceptions concerning consumer safety, but there is nothing about the health and safety of workers in the field.

And so on. --- There certainly might be a balanced way to discuss the issue of organic/conventional, but as it stands, inadvertantly or not, this article clearly reads as a strong POV editorial beating down a limited set of false perceptions and failing to recognize more widely held issues and perceptions on organic food. Over all, I"m not sure why a more descriptive entry on organic food, might serve the community better. It would be pretty simple to state in a sentence or two that there are many reasons consumers may choose organic food, some (but not all) of which might be based on misconceptions. That controversy I think belongs elsewhere. Does every consumer product wikipedia entry get swamped with descriptions of consumer misconceptions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgran (talk • contribs) 08:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

An encyclopedia relays accepted knowledge, not "perceptions" (other than as they are treated in RS). If there are good sources not being used, please suggest them. Alexbrn 08:21, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The existing entry has a section titled "public perceptions" that I was referring to -- and there is plenty written in scientific journals on actual wildlife and environmental impacts, farm worker health, antibiotic resistance, animal confinement, etc. If you want to reference it all (with or without a description of consumer perceptions) you will have book. I'm with you though, the entry should be descriptive of the main topic, and leave out perceptions/misperceptions completely. It should certainly leave it out if it is incomplete and one-sided.Tgran (talk) 08:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

It should treat it in accord with its treatment in the best sources. If that's one-sided, Misplaced Pages will be too. That's neutrality. But again, this discussion isn't going to go anywhere without soe sources on the table. Alexbrn 08:43, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

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