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• Winkelvi has withdrawn his promise to stay out of articles where he has had disputes, and it is being argued out now on his user talk page. If I follow his argument correctly, he is upset that his promise did not result in an immediate unblock. He says, inter alia, I just feel duped, taken advantage of, and like a complete fool for doing what was asked. I believed it to be an actual agreement that would lead to being unblocked sooner. I don't like being made a fool of nor do I like being lied to. Because the other side of the agreement never materialized (and looks like it probably was never going to), I no longer feel obligated to follow through with my side of the agreement. Coretheapple (talk) 00:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

• While it's tempting to do color commentary, there's enough eyes on the problem now. As the blocks expire, it might be better for everyone to give these users a wide berth and let WP:ROPE take precedent. Viriditas (talk) 10:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

• Well yes of course, but if Winkelvi agrees to the very topic bans we've been discussing ad infinitum, then it surely needs to be noted in this thread. Ditto any changes in that. Coretheapple (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for Clarification: Was There a Topic-Ban?

I am trying to see if the moderated dispute resolution of Meghan Trainor can be resumed now that the three editors are off block. My understanding is that Winklevi, Lips Are Movin, and MaranoFan were all blocked for 48 hours for edit-warring. There have been repeated statements about a formal or informal topic-ban on Winklevi, but I see no evidence that any topic-ban was ever formally imposed or informally accepted. Is that correct? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban was informally accepted yesterday, during his block. Winkelvi promised to abide by a voluntary topic ban from all of the articles in which he'd been involved in disputes, but then reneged after a few hours. Coretheapple (talk) 00:07, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Then there is no topic-ban, so he may participate in moderated dispute resolution. Okay. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure. But I would suggest reading all of the foregoing before diving into this pool. Coretheapple (talk) 00:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

As the substitute volunteer moderator at the dispute resolution noticeboard, I did a general close of the dispute resolution of Meghan Trainor. The article is still currently protected. Discussion at the talk page can continue, as can an RFC either at the talk page or at a project page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Closing discussed here. Coretheapple (talk) 05:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Way past sell by date

Could someone else close down this twenty day old thread? If you can't get something to stick on an editor in one-third that time, it's time to gently set your stick on the ground and find something else to do. Note Coretheapple has been keeping the thread alive (see post above) and then claiming there's a "new" viewpoint and canvassing others to comment NE Ent 20:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh please. User:J. Johnson posted without anyone "canvassing" him, concerning disruption at 2014 Oso mudslide, an article nowhere else mentioned in this topic, commenting on Winkelvi's behavior there . I posted a note on his page after he did that. You ought to know better than to make such an accusation, or to take it upon yourself to archive an ANI topic in which you vigorously side with the subject. The discussion has gone on a long time because of the subject's behavior and long record of disruption, most recently by behaving tendentiously at DRN I know you like him and side with him, and that's great. I think that it would help the project a great deal more if you helped him, rather than shut down discussion about the serial problems he causes. Also I think that you're not quite correct about nothing "sticking" on this editor, whatever that means, as you may be aware that he was just blocked for 48 hours for edit warring, and made a promise to adhere to a topic ban and then reneged on it. So no, this ANI topic has not exactly been an exercise in wheel-spinning. Coretheapple (talk) 20:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with User:NE Ent, and I, like User:Coretheapple, think that the editor in question has been troublesome, but can we allow this thread to hibernate? If the editor in question does anything new, a new thread can be started. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Request template namespace topic ban for Sardanaphalus

I have been increasingly concerned about Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs)'s template editing lately. His template editing was recently mentioned in an ANI thread, after which I removed his template editor right. However, I've found that the problems aren't limited to protected templates. While most of his template edits are fine, a significant minority have problems, and given Sardanaphalus's fast rate of editing and tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages, this has resulted in quite a large build-up of templates that need to be fixed. I have noticed the following patterns in Sardanaphalus's template editing:

• Logic errors and bad parameter names that could have been spotted with better testing. For example, a wrong parameter name at infobox company and a missing includeonly tag in infobox shopping mall.
• Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)
• Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable.
• Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example Template:Semisub (TfD) and Template:End&startflatlist (TfD).
• Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see this edit to Template:Collapsible option, the corresponding edits to Template:Mono, and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option. Sometimes increases in complexity are fine, but I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion.
• Changing the function of parameters based on other parameters in the template, e.g. and the edits to Template:Mono linked above. Once such a parameter scheme is added, it is hard to fix, as you need to go through every transclusion of a template and check that it doesn't use the new scheme, or add a special tracking category to find the transclusions that need changing. Again, schemes like this can be useful sometimes, but Sardanaphalus tends to add them without discussion in places where they aren't needed.

All of this wouldn't be such a problem if Sardanaphalus took on board advice he was given after problems with his template editing were brought up. However, he tends to revert rather than using the talk page, and sometimes resorts to edit warring to keep his changes in templates. Most importantly, advice on his talk page doesn't seem to have resulted in any change of behaviour. For example, after this thread that I started on his talk page last week, he is still making edits with the exact same problems. I don't see much improvement after other recent threads either, and I see quite a few complaints going back in his talk page history.

I'd like to propose a topic ban from the template namespace for Sardanaphalus, to prevent further bad template edits and to allow us to start cleaning up the old edits without having to worry about cleaning up new edits at the same time. — Mr. Stradivarius 06:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

1. I understand that its removal without warning is a prerogative, but, given that our interactions before January were<aside>if I recall correctly</aside>of a friendly, fruitful and collaborative nature, why did you choose not to contact me before revoking the template-editor status  during  the ANI thread you mention<aside>a thread that was about  another  editor's actions</aside>? And then, despite my attempts to reach out to you about the situation, why did you choose not to contact me (privately, if you'd felt it more appropriate) before launching this proposal<aside>especially after this allusion</aside>?
2. "While most of his template edits are fine..."
    This seems to be the single, passing acknowledgement as regards my template contributions overall. Do you realise how one-sided your characterisations and proposal might otherwise appear?
3. "...given Sardanaphalus's tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages..."
    Before, during or after some editing..? And attempts to work toward consensus elsewhere<aside>i.e. less publicly; when, for example, I'm trying to handle incivility</aside> don't or can't count..?
4. "Logic errors..."
    Given the examples you provide, do you not also make the occasional mistake<aside>yes,  occasional</aside>?
5. "...bad parameter names..."
    Such as<aside>in the context of templates such as {{Navbox}}, {{Sidebar}} and {{Infobox}}</aside> some of those provided for e.g. {{hlist}}, {{flatlist}}, etc..?
6. "Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)"
   1. Why is your interpretation that of a desire to bypass process? Does it strike you as good faith to choose such an interpretation?
   2. Given tools such as Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser, what do you take as "large-scale editing"?
   3. The matter discussed in the previous ANI thread was  another editor's  actions.
7. "Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable":
   1.   I agree that this was a mistake – which is why I (tried to) correct it (), but was given this.
   2.   I see no bunched up / unreadable material here (and at 1024 by 768).
   3.   Ditto (ii) (if the deleted template still existed).
8. "Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example":
   1. Template:Semisub (TfD)  How does the rationale presented at the TfD render this template  unnecessary ..? It may've been in need of refinement, but why any more unnecessary than other templates that adjust positioning, etc..?
   2. Template:End&startflatlist (TfD)  This template was a one-template replacement for occasions where two consecutive templates were in use, but, as this can be avoided without compromising presentation, I had/have no objection to its deletion. Anyone with access to its history should find it saw very little use.
   Are most of the templates I've initiated "unnecessary"..?
9. "Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see...":
   1. "...this edit to Template:Collapsible option..." As indicated in the edit summary for this edit<aside>"Update from sandbox (parentheses per talkpage request)"</aside> this was to fulfil a request to restore a version of the template found to be more useful.
   2. "...the corresponding edits to Template:Mono..." I don't understand what is meant by "corresponding edits" here. What is so "bad" about them..?
   3. "...and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option..." Similarly, what is so "bad" about enabling this convenience/shortcut for the lone parameter that<aside>so far as I've seen</aside> plain/regular/standard {{Navbox}}es usually have had made configurable at transclusion..? The idea and practice isn't due to me and isn't limited to this template. If this particular instance of the practice, though, makes template processing so much slower, I've yet to come by or to've been given some insight how/why – i.e. something more than statement or assertion.
   4. "...I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion."

• Support topic ban. I had noticed that Sardanaphalus has the wrong approach to editing templates before this report. A minor example is seen in the history at Template:Hegelianism where Sardanaphalus is editing the live template as if it were a contentious article which requires edit warring and pointy edit summaries to overcome POV pushers. Bold editing is one thing, but templates really do require care and collaboration. Johnuniq (talk) 08:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Hello. I don't believe we've interacted before. I suppose it's a pity that here has become the first time. Given your first statement, did you decide not to say hello and indicate your concern because you thought my approach was "wrong" but not that "wrong" / "bad" / etc; and/or because you felt I wouldn't respond well; and/or...?
2. Do you believe the example you give (Template:Hegelianism) represents my usual nature, activity and interactivity?

• Support - Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive, but he has trouble collaborating. He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes. When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods. His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens. He uses and creates templates like {{!-!}} and {{!-!!}} that are completely redundant to wikimarkup and make table/template editing exponentially harder, yet at the same time acuses experienced template editors of "thinking like progrmammers". I would be a good thing if Sardanaphalus would experience Misplaced Pages more as a reader... on small screens. Or at the least, he could do with some coaching. -- ] {{talk}} 09:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

1. "Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive..."
    I can imagine Edokter as quite productive.
2. "...but he has trouble collaborating."
    Mistaken – as, for instance, I believe Mr. Stradivarius would testify (and, for instance, Tryptofish has testified below). I've become all too aware of circumstances in which Edokter has trouble collaborating.
3. "He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes."
    If so, I've been experiencing someone with considerably stronger ideas about how things "should" be done and, as such, doesn't... and, at this point, I suspect it's best to move on:
4. "When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods."
    I can't tell what this means, or is meant to mean. Does it suggest, for instance, that what Edokter sees as an (obvious) error is something he thinks I<aside>or any/everyone</aside> sees, would see or should see as an (obvious) error..?
5. "His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens."
    Mistaken again – as far, at least, as a reduction to 1024 by 768. That doesn't mean, though, that

• Comment. Please take a look at User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 24#Template:Aquarium. Not too long ago, I reverted an edit by Sardanaphalus at that template, and they reached out to me at my user talk, and our subsequent discussion was very collaborative and improved the template. As a single anecdote, it seems to me to be contrary to what I'm reading here. I do however recognize that Sardanaphalus does an awful lot of template editing and that this is something where consensus is very important. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
  • He used to inquire about my reverts, and I would answer best I could, even though he should have brought up any issue on their respective template talk pages instead. However, any advice I give him is simply ignored or very soon forgoten. -- ] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support Sardanaphalus has a habit of reformatting template code in such a manner that makes comparison by diff very difficult. Consider this edit from earlier today: the effective change is the addition of two {{{colheaderstyle|}}} but whilst the first of those is obvious, the second is disguised by the newline wrapped in <!-- --> markers which makes it look like some code has been removed and some very different code has been added. It has reached the point where I have refused to process their protected edit requests because it is so difficult to determine if their desired "minor" change truly is minor. More at Template talk:Shortcut#Protected edit request on 4 December 2014, Template talk:Information#Navbox version and Template talk:Div col#Code layout. They also nag me for not processing edits that I disagree with, see User talk:Redrose64#Template:Information, User talk:MSGJ#Advice, please..? and (by proxy) User talk:Edokter#Template talk:Div col. Sometimes it seems that a strange effect somewhere is the result of a Sardanaphalus edit - but it takes some time to trace it, see Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)/Archive 132#Linebreaks in infoboxes. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
  • You may also note from today's editing that his use of the sandbox is not very effective; he seemingly moves every edit to the live template immediately, negating the purpose of the sandbox. If the transclusion count is high, this will unnecessarily strain the job queue, and in cases where he does not use the sandbox at all, may introduce disruptive errors on live articles. -- ] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. Sardanaphalus has asked some questions at both my user talk page and Mr. Stradivarius' talk page, and I would prefer that no final decision be made here until Sardanaphalus has responded here at ANI. At the moment, I'm neutral about the ban proposal, pending what I might hear subsequently. One possibility that I think we might want to put on the table is a topic ban from editing templates, but not from editing template talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

  I agree that editing the template talk namespace should be allowed. Thinking about it, I would extend that to allowing the editing of template sandboxes as well, as without editing template sandboxes it is hard to make effective template edit requests. I'm also wondering whether editing /doc pages in the template namespace should be allowed, but I note that there has been some controversy about Sardanaphalus's editing there; see this section on his talk page, for example. — Mr. Stradivarius 23:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

  I looked at that discussion you linked to, and before I say what I think, I had better stipulate that I'm mostly ignorant about the technicalities being discussed there. However, just as a matter of two editors communicating with one another, I'm not seeing anything that bad about the way that Sardanaphalus replied to Edokter. After reading Edokter's reply to my first post just above, I wondered why the two of us had had such differing experiences, and it now seems to me that it takes two to tango. Anyway, I'm receptive to a more limited ban that prevents editing templates and template documentation, but permits template talk page edits and edits of draft templates in sandbox space – but above all, I'm eager to hear back from Sardanaphalus. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

  I should clarify that I never intended my proposed topic ban to include the template talk namespace - while it's related to the template namespace, technically it is not a part of it. Regarding Edokter, I agree that he could have handled that interaction better. I have noticed Edokter becoming increasingly frustrated with Sardanaphalus over the last few months, and this frustration is clearly evident in his recent interactions with him. It is not surprising to me that Sardanaphalus has reacted negatively to Edokter's complaints. However, Edokter is very knowledgeable about MediaWiki technical matters (much more than I am), and the technical points that he has brought up in discussions with Sardanaphalus are sound. I would say that his frustration is a symptom, rather than the cause. — Mr. Stradivarius 00:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

  I've been thinking about the proposed topic ban scope, and I've come to the conclusion that we should allow Sardanaphalus to edit /doc pages for templates that have been updated due to edit requests that he makes, but not in other circumstances. The reason is pretty simple - after a template has been changed, it is often necessary to update the documentation with details of new parameters or new functionality, and it seems overly bureaucratic to require Sardanaphalus to do this on another page and then have another editor copy the documentation over. However, I don't think that this should be extended to allowing editing of all /doc pages unconditionally, as Sardanaphalus has been known to go systematically through /doc pages and change the formatting, and some of those edits have been contentious, as discussed above. — Mr. Stradivarius 00:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment)Template:Cue I've had concerns about this user's ability to edit templates for some time as well but would only support a topic ban if the following is considered: I've seen some of their edits to templates, and they certainly have the logical ability to figure out how to properly do it and only lack the patience of making sure that it is right in the sandbox and making sure the changes are what the community wants in cases where a change might be objected to. As many may know, I've had issues and struggled with some of these things myself in the past and some would argue on my behalf that I have grown from them. Telling this user they can't talk about templates at all may very well drive a capable editor away, and that's harmful to the encyclopedia. I'd suggest that the closer of this discussion consider allowing Sardanaphalus the option of obtaining a mentor that is knowledgeable in templates and code and willing to be a middleman / filter for Sardanaphalus' ideas and changes. I'm fairly certain that the community would not see me fit for the job, and I respect that opinion despite not entirely agreeing with it, but I ask they give him a chance to find a mentor that is suitable to the community if he wishes to not be entirely topic banned from templates. Thank you for hearing me. — {{U|Technical 13}} 21:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Now I say this with some regret. I am convinced Sardanaphalus is a good faith editor with intelligence and technical knowledge. But I am also convinced that he is sloppy in his work, has difficulty collaborating, and has technical blindspots, particularly with resolution. While I support this TBAN I would like the following provisos to be considered: to only be restricted from templates not created by him, to have no restrictions to template talk or sandboxes, and to be allowed to collaborate with Technical 13 to suggest changes which are then carried out by Technical 13. --Mrjulesd (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• I largely agree with what Mrjulesd just said. It seems to me that it has been long enough for Sardanaphalus to post a substantive response, and I take the fact that it has not happened yet as reason for me to not wait any longer and Support a limited ban. Because templates appear on multiple pages, edits to templates require a reasonable amount of care and consensus. An editor who has this much difficulty responding here needs some boundaries with respect to editing templates, but it does not have to be a "punishment". I, too, trust Technical 13 to serve informally as a mentor; for that matter, I would also trust Mr. Strad. I would like the ban to apply only to edits of templates (created by anyone) and to template documentation. No edits there. But edits would be unrestricted at template talk pages and draft/sandbox templates, and any editor in good standing (not just the mentor) could agree to implement changes to templates and documentation. And I sincerely wish Sardanaphalus happy editing going forward. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

  Since my comment above, Sardanaphalus has posted at some length at my user talk, and also posted the two sets of questions to editors above. I've read all of that, carefully and with an open mind, and my opinion is not changed, because what I'm seeing is a combination of having difficulty accepting constructive criticism and having difficulty communicating effectively with other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Working toward an alternative outcome

Hello. I have been trying to work out a promising way to contribute to this thread, so I apologise if this initial post appears belated. Mr. Stradivarius endorsed the idea that linking/copying the conversation I started on his talkpage should be a good first step, so, with the exception of its Template:Tnfs, I've quoted it below. Thoughts, please..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

== Request ==

Regarding your proposal: Though I've found a certain amount of information about this situation, I've yet to divine or find advice as regards what's considered an effective way for the... indictee? to proceed. I'd appreciate, therefore, your advice/assistance.

Sincerely,
Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

As Tryptofish advised you, you should post a comment at the ANI thread. If you don't comment there, it will probably lower other editors' opinions of how well you collaborate with others. For things to go as well as possible, you need to a) show that you understand what the complaints about you are, b) accept responsibility for the issues brought up that are your fault (apologising helps here), and c) show that you are committed to improving your actions in the areas that you accept responsibility for (an action plan will help here). Though I started the thread about you, I don't actually want to see you topic banned if it can be avoided. I started the thread because I thought that a topic ban might be the only way to get you to change your behaviour after you seemingly ignored advice from myself and others. Perhaps this is all just a communication problem and can be sorted out through discussion - if that's the case, then so much the better. — Mr. Stradivarius 13:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for this message. In short: yes, I feel there's been an accumulation of misunderstandings, misinterpretations and unfinished conversations, some of which<aside>perhaps many of which</aside> have been prompted, I think, because of my attempts to take advice on board. I'm heartened to read that you don't want to see me topic (namespace?)-banned if it can be avoided; this is what the question at the end of a follow-up to the above that I'd been drafting had addressed ("...is there any kind of outcome other than the one proposed that you'd prefer to see / like to see..?").

Do you think, therefore, that linking and/or copying the contents of this thread to the ANI thread<aside>to see if/how anyone following it responds</aside> is a good initial post for me to make there..?

With my thanks again, Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

PS Despite, for instance, LT910001's own userpage, this may also be timely.

Yes, I think that linking to this conversation as part of your initial post would be a good idea. You should also try and address my points a, b and c above. But you shouldn't make the post too long - the thread will go smoothest if it is a conversation rather than a series of walls of text. Also, you should comment there soon, preferably today - the longer you leave it, the more it looks to other editors like you are ignoring the thread. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm required elsewhere for a while now, so will make the post sometime later today. Thanks for your confirmation. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

There's really nothing for the rest of us to add here. What is needed is for you to say whatever you are going to say. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm still not confident about what's best for that to be. Given Mr. Stradivarius's points (a) to (c) above, I'm thinking I should work through what's been said in the main part of this thread in order to demonstrate, I suppose, that I don't "understand what the complaints about are"<aside>more accurately, to demonstrate that I feel their basis isn't as clear-cut or perhaps as well-founded as it may otherwise seem</aside> but I think that's likely to generate one of these "walls of text"...? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The general sense I get from this comment is that, in essense, you do not agree with the complaints. In other words, you feel you are doing nothing wrong. That is unfortunate, because that may indicates there is no intent to change on your part. What we are asking of you is to adhere to some basic principles that we expect from anyone editing Misplaced Pages. One of these principles is to take advice from others instead of fighting them and perceiving criticism on your edits as personal attacks. You have been given lots of advice on technical matters, but it appears to have fallen on deaf ears, as you generally do not show any change in editing. Also, if you feel you need a 'wall of text' to address these complaints, that is also not a good sign. So at this point I think a topic ban on Template:-space (meaning live templates only, not including template talk pages, /sandbox and /testcases pages), combined with some other technical restrictions, and coaching, is what is needed to improve the quality of your edits. Accepting a coach would be the only way to lift this ban in the future. Before deciding this, we'd like to hear your view (as concise as possible) on these complaints on your edits. I emphasized "edits" because I want to stress we are not discussing you as a person. -- ] {{talk}} 16:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Does anyone endorse the train of thought in this message's first half..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

It all boils down to...

...this, I think: no more than a handful of editors<aside>and one in particular</aside> thinking, I guess, that I understood something, or that they'd explained something to me<aside>or "advised" me</aside> while, in fact, I didn't understand something, or they hadn't explained something, or mistook statements<aside>or assertions</aside> for explanation. And, as a consequence, despite "most of his template edits fine", it looks like these few editors will have someone banned<aside>not blocked or whatever, but banned</aside> from a namespace – not a topic within a namespace, but a namespace. Does all this mean I've made mistakes and/or misjudgements? Definitely. Do I apologise for doing so? Absolutely. I hope that's not too concise or robust. Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the above statement helps at all. There is consensus in this thread to ban you from the namespace. The only thing which may possibly prevent this going ahead is to voluntary agree to a strict set of restrictions, such as the following:

• You accept that there are significant concerns about your current template editing.
• You adhere to WP:1RR in the template namespace, and seek consensus for all edits that are reverted before attempting to re-apply. You fully test all changes in a sandbox before deploying.
• You discuss all changes that introduce new functionality or new parameters to a template, and seek consensus for them.
• You avoid hard-coding any styles into templates.
• You avoid making cosmetic changes to the code which do not affect the output of the template. Examples include changing template calls to redirects, or fiddling with the whitespace.

Would you be willing to abide by these restrictions (and agree to be blocked if you do not)? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

That is a good list, but it misses the essence of the problem. No one should edit live templates by trial-and-error, and templates are not like articles where users edit war with snarky edit summaries. Sardanaphalus should use a sandbox to perform experiments, and should only transfer the result to the main template after thorough testing with the sandbox. Take a look at the responses from Sardanaphalus above—there is no acknowledgment of a problem, and there is no indication of a willingness to learn. A topic ban is the only reasonable outcome because technical people working on templates are not willing to deal with disruption—it's just not what is expected on the technical side. Johnuniq (talk) 11:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Note that MSGJ said these rules could "possibly prevent" a ban, if Sardanaphalus would agree to them. I'm interested to see if he does. But if he does not, then a ban on editing live templates is the most likely outcome. -- ] {{talk}} 13:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

While this doesn't mitigate the above, I would like to point out he has made a better statement at my talk page . But I can't understand why he hasn't said something similar here, but I hope it is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

•   Because, Mrjulesd, despite common sense and some research, I still believe some even-handedness might prevail. If anyone is still reading, no, that doesn't mean I think I'm "right"; it doesn't mean I think I haven't done anything "wrong"; it doesn't mean I don't think there're any problems ...... but it does mean that this narrow, selective mischaracterisation and misrepresentation of the (template) contributions I make needs to stop ...... It paints a distorted, one-sided picture of these contributions and misinterprets their intent. It also ignores the incivility ...... as a result of an inability to distinguish assertion from explanation or advice

(Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC))

Close?

It doesn't look like there is much benefit in keeping this any longer, and consensus has been formed. I suggest we close this shortly with the following conclusion. Hopefully this will be a temporary ban and Sardanaphalus finds other avenues to be productive in the meantime — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs · logs) is indefinitely restricted from making any edits to the template namespace in the English Misplaced Pages with the following exceptions:

• Template talk pages;
• Templates sandboxes, test cases or other "non live" subtemplates used for testing;
• Documentation pages, but only as a direct result of a change to a template's code requested by Sardanaphalus.

• I have just been able to log in again. I will now try to reconstruct what I can recall of the post I was working on that was meant to precede the above. It includes notice taken of the railroading that seemed<aside>and now appears confirmed</aside> to've begun. Of course there is "consensus": it's much easier to make noises when being one-sided, negative and having an axe to grind. Sardanaphalus (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  PS This also denies my completing the response to Mr. Stradivarius' original post on which I've been working and, in turn, his considered response.

User:Lachlan Foley indiscriminate mass article tagging and WP:DISRUPT

• Lachlan Foley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

User:Lachlan Foley is out of control.

In just the last five days, LF has tagged about 400 album and song articles with music notability tags without any apparent research or examination of the articles themselves, many of which actually show they were hit songs or records, like with Blur's #5 UK charting Charmless Man and On Your Own (Blur song) song articles. . He seems to have a particular dislike of live albums - 17 out of 22 Gary Numan's live albums articles has been tagged by him as well two Roxy Music albums.

Many of the other album articles he threw notability tags on are of those by iconic artists such as Radiohead and Brian Eno.

Looking just previous to this latest round of mass tagging, I see he tagged Roxy Music #5 charting Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article with a notability tag.

Just have a look at his contributions page and you'll see.

Any kind of attempted reasoning with him will be met with edit warring as demonstrated by his block for 3RR about two weeks ago. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive267#User:Info4allthepeople reported by User:Lachlan Foley (Result: Submitter blocked).

This editor needs to be kept in check.--Oakshade (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I've done nothing wrong, so I have no need to explain myself, but I will say that if you had also bothered to look a cursory glance at the constructive improvements I have made to hundreds of articles over the period of five years, you'd think twice about calling my tagging "indiscriminate". You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me. Lachlan Foley (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Mass tagging of hundreds of song and album articles, many of which were top 10 or top 20 hits demonstrates you were indiscriminate in your tagging. You can't erase history as the diffs are there forever. Glad you brought up the Joy Division album Preston 28 February 1980 article as that's yet another example in which you failed to do any research and threw a notability tag on. It seems you're angry about that tag being removed and being called on your WP:DISRUPT violating behavior. --Oakshade (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I recall this user sending dozens and dozens of similar articles to AfD and IIRC, they've all been kept. Recommend that LF raises notability on the WP:ALBUM talkpage first before tagging more articles. Lugnuts 18:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Given this is a longtime ongoing pattern, I think a topic ban might be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC) AMENDMENT: Given the behavior demonstrated by Cavarrone below with multiple topics, it seems more than just a topic ban would be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Just drawing to your attention that User:Lachlan Foley has tagged almost all of the Jebediah releases with notability tags even though everyone of them are charting songs and contain independent verifiable references. Until checking his talk page I was unaware that this editor has a past history of this disruptive behaviour. Concur with previous comments that this appears to be an ongoing pattern that should be actively discouraged.Dan arndt (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Does this constitute vandalism? See Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Abuse of tags, and there are literally hundreds of wrong tags, it's hard to believe good faith. --Mrjulesd (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Def. a case of WP:DE. Lugnuts 08:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

And for Jebediah I see on the #6 charting Kosciuszko (album) article, LF removed all the professional review sources and then tagged it for notability on the next edit. Wow. --Oakshade (talk) 08:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• I remember a similar incident back in June 2012 with the same editor indiscriminately mass-tagging for notability hundreds of films, including films by Otto Preminger, Oliver Stone, Ernst Lubitsch, Wes Craven, Mario Bava, almost an half of the whole filmography of Roger Corman and more, see User_talk:Lachlan_Foley/Archive_1#Stop_please and User_talk:Lachlan_Foley/Archive_1#warning. Probably a topic ban from tagging articles for notability could be in order. Cavarrone 00:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Really could use an Admin weighing in on this and for this to have a definitive end.--Oakshade (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, they're too busy with backslapping and waiting for their spines to develop to help with a real issue. Lugnuts 18:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Something needs to be done. Just in the last day, even after all the agreement of his disruptive behavior here by all editors, he's tagged multiple charting song and album articles with notability tags - examples are - the latter of which, Found That Soul, was a top 10 hit.--Oakshade (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Still continuing with the tagging spree. Admins, time to step up. Lugnuts 14:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have not checked his recent rapidfire tagging, but the time rate of the tags (one tag or more/a minute) is well below of a minimum standard it is reasonable to expect by a responsible, non-bot, good-faith reviewer who analyzes sourcing and contents of the articles. In spite of warnings and previous incidents, I don't see any sign he intends to change his attitude, nor he apparently wants to engage in a discussion to explain his actions, so I strongly suggest a topic ban from tagging articles, especially as the tagbombing appears to be a dead end for LF (even considering previous incidents, I don't see any intention to nominate such articles from deletion). Even if LF could be sometimes incidentally right, this mass-tagging is unhelpful and requires a lot of time (and sometimes stress) from the community to review and fix his edits, and frankly everyone has better things to do than loosing time behind some improper tags (LF included). Cavarrone 16:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin needed here. Lugnuts 10:49, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

He does not change his attitude very easily. When the Everything Must Go incident went down, he was just removing information that I added without any explanation. I tried to explain that there was nothing wrong with the information, and there wasn't, the information had reliable references, but he just kept reverting my edits, and eventually reported me for 3RR, that was the moment I tried not to edit the articles where he made changes, so I would not have to deal with the process of getting reported. Just wanted to share my opinion because I felt really cheerless when I was reported because of an article where I was adding valid information with references, and when I tried to figure out the reason for his removal of the infomration in question, he reported me. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 14:15, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

When User:Rhanas attempted to explain to LF these unconstructive edits, his response was, "How dare you, you don't have a clue about what I'm doing. I am improving these articles and if you have a problem with that take your frustration somewhere else." He just doesn't get it. --Oakshade (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I really tried to explain, some of his edits are really meaningless and not necessary at all, he changes everything from one moment to the other when there is no reason to, I really don't get his edits.Rhanas (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin action is needed

Any chance of an admin actually doing something here? This has been here for more than a week. Lugnuts 10:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

C'mon you chocolate fireguards. Pull your fingers out. Lugnuts 13:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

Moved this section down for visibility. Given the failure of the editor to respond sufficiently, or indeed to stop tagging articles that clearly pass our notability guidelines, I suggest a topic ban on User:Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to music recording related articles, broadly construed. Please feel free to tweak this as required. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Topic Ban Discussion

• Support as proposer. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support The user has no clear idea over notability guidelines and is tagging articles en-masse with thought. The edit history on this article is just one recent example. Continuation of tagging and failure to engage in this discussion point to WP:NOTHERE. Lugnuts 14:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Block until the topic ban issue is decided, to prevent further damage in the interim. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have warned him to disengage from this area until the discussion is concluded. Black Kite (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. He's even edit warring to reinstate clearly incorrect tags, and is being very disruptive. It seems like some kind of obsession that can't be reasoned with. And if he's continuing the disruption while this discussion is in progress, block until there's an outcome here. Squinge (talk) 15:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support per my reasoning in the main section above. --Cavarrone 17:19, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Black Kite and Lugnuts. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, simple enough. This should be enforced with long blocks. Shii (tock) 17:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support and block, but ensure notability tag ban applies to all topics. As Cavarrone indicated above, he has not limited himself to this tag abuse to just music related articles. --Oakshade (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Quite clearly needed. BMK (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Agree, it is my opinion he does not change his attitude and just keeps adding tags wildly on every article. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, clearly, the editor is either not acting in good faith, or is not taking due care when tagging articles for notability. Either way, they shouldn't be editing these articles until they demonstrate an understanding of when notability tags are appropriate. Lankiveil 00:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC).
• Support appropriate restrictions on this editor including the proposed topic-ban. Even accepting his subjective good faith, his pattern of participation is damaging. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Judging by this, I'm not sure if s/he doesn't quite understand what notability means or if s/he just doesn't care (I'm leaning toward the latter though). Erpert 05:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support banning Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to articles. User demonstrated on my talk page that their believes about notability criterion are in direct conflict with WP:GNG. -- Sam 10:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Given his history of constructive edits this is clearly not a SPA whose purpose is disruption. Tagging articles is a means of promoting discussion and dialog; an editor doesn't need to obtain a certain threshold of agreement to his proposals or face silencing. It would be different if the editor were blanking pages, etc., but someone should not be topic banned simply for expressing (extreme) minority viewpoints. BlueSalix (talk) 10:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose See Leviathan (song), for instance -- there is no particular assertion of notability on that page, so tagging for notability and refimprove was not a bad thing.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

  WP:NSONGS clearly states that charting by itself is not sufficient to establish notability. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

If I went on a blind tagging spree, hitting 1000s of articles, I bet I can get one right eventually. Lugnuts 13:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

What Lugnuts said. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Just by randomness, something will hit.--Oakshade (talk) 15:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for much the same reason as Sarek. See Talk:4st 7lb, for example, where he's precisely right: WP:NSONGS states that album reviews don't contribute to an album track's notability. When I dig back through his tags they seem pretty much correct based on the properly-sourced contents of the tagged articles. This comes down to an age-old issue, where people that have made defective articles dislike it when people tag the defects as opposed to correcting them. That the tags can generally be easily addressed doesn't make them wrong, and, if we topic-ban Lachlan Foley, we make it that much more likely that no one will ever fix the underlying articles.—Kww(talk) 13:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

We can ignore Kww comments following a string of bad-faith edits over the weekend. Clearly needs to read WP:CIR before he continues. Lugnuts 14:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The attacks are getting pretty old, Lugnuts.—Kww(talk) 14:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

For attacks, read facts. Are you now going to do your token block threat now that you've been found out? Lugnuts 15:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to disagree with 4st 7lb (though there are lot of independent sources available - it might sneak in), but the problem is that LF has been tagging charting singles by major bands. What are the chances of there being no sources available for those? Nil. Tag them for more sources by all means, but tagging for notability is ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - NSONG isn't exactly definitive (probably are, may be, etc), but the articles (as tagged) appear to at least be in question. Yes, there may be other sources that establish notability - but they aren't in the articles and there is enough to question based on what is in the articles. Blocking or topic-banning for placing tags is not a good precedent at all. The editor is engaging at the article talk pages and at their own talk page (to some degree). Worse than the tagging is the edit warring to remove the tags without addressing the concerns raised. --Tgeairn (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Nobody here is claiming LF should be blocked just by tagging, it's the mass indiscriminate tagging with many clear examples tagging article topics that are most definitely notable (remember, WP:NOTABILITY is very clear:"Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation."). Tagging the #5 UK hit Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article demonstrates the indiscriminate, almost random nature of LF's tagging. As pointed out above, this has been going on for years. Notability tagging the Oliver Stone-directed film Seizure? Clearly LF has learned nothing over the years. As the opening states, something needs to be done to keep this user in check. --Oakshade (talk) 15:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Mayhaps I am in the wrong here too. Seeing Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), I would tag it for notability and sources as well. There are two references, one is not about the article subject at all, and the other is a completely unreliable source of user-generated trivia. Yes, if this was a #5 UK hit then it may be notable (per WP:NSONG) - but we don't even have a source for that. I'd still tag it, as NSONG has additional criteria for standalone articles. I'm not seeing clear examples of indiscriminate tagging. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

As for Seizure, it had zero references at the time of tagging. Of course it should be tagged or fixed on the spot. It now has a single reference (to Facebook, no less). The lack of a tag is hurting article quality, as nothing is drawing editors to find reliable sources for what is likely a notable film. Again, I would have tagged it too. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, and the added tag asked for exactly what needed to be done: someone needed to add reliable sources that address the topic's notability.—Kww(talk) 16:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Tagging for more sources is one thing, but notability tagging which in effect says "This is not notable because I don't see sources" is a different matter. For Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), with no surprise it only took me about 3 seconds to confirm it was a #5 hit as you would want confirmation for . For Seizure, it took 2 seconds to find very in-depth coverage. It's clear LF doesn't make any effort to follow WP:NOTABILITY and WP:BEFORE on obvious examples such as those and just slaps on notability tags.--Oakshade (talk) 16:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)--Oakshade (talk) 16:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Note that WP:BEFORE isn't mandatory, isn't a guideline, and wouldn't be a relevant one if it was. It's a paragraph inside a page describing our AFD process and describes what to do before nominating an article for deletion. If Lachlan was dragging this many articles through AFD, I'd be in favor of a topic ban. Putting a tag on unsourced articles in the hopes that someone that cares about the topic will care enough to add a reliable source? That doesn't seem to warrant any kind of action.—Kww(talk) 16:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we'll just go back and forth on this about tagging for sources, which nobody here is having issue with, is a very different matter from mass indiscriminate tagging for notability which is beyond simply a request for sources and where the issue is with most editors here. Pretty much what I stated just above is where I'll leave it stand.--Oakshade (talk) 18:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

If the only difference between the two tags is that the notability tag has an implication that makes it more successful in getting editors to actually add sourcing, I would see that as a fairly persuasive argument for using the notability tag.—Kww(talk) 19:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree with that. The only time I would use the notability tag was if I saw an article that (a) looked non-notable, (b) I couldn't find any online sources, but (c) I was not familiar with it and could see that there may be something I'm missing. If I suspected it was possibly notable then I would add refimprove and see what happened; if I was fairly sure it was non-notable I would nom it for deletion. The notability tag is IMHO fairly useless in most circumstances. And especially with many of these where (b) doesn't apply anyway unless you're not trying. Black Kite (talk) 21:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, empirical evidence has told me that expecting anyone to fix a top level tag at any time is just wishful thinking. Take a look at George Town SC, Historic church of Cúcuta, Iranian football league system, New Town, Luton and New England Interstate Route 19 - not a single source added on any of those articles for well over eight years. Ritchie333 14:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Support. The tags I have looked at mostly verge on the ridiculous. And there are many hundreds of them posted over the last few days. And they have done this before, and not learnt. They haven't even stopped for this ANI. And the only explantation posted is "You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me.", showing no understanding of the issues at hand. Something needs to be done, and this is a good start, else this disruption will continue. I would also support a motion to restrict drive by tagging by this user too, as most of them have no talk page discussions at all.--Mrjulesd (talk) 19:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per discussion below. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose ban as being Draconian (covering every single article "broadly construed"?) but suggest a stern warning that a topic ban on "music notability tags" is highly likely in future if too many bad notability tags do not stick. Collect (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

He was already given a stern warning. And that was 2012. He doesn't care about warnings.--Oakshade (talk) 05:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support per WP:HITANDRUN - the way you fix articles is by doing this, not this. (See point 15 on my user page). Ritchie333 08:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - not buying the arguments of "there are loads of unreferenced things in this category", "NSONG is vague" or "they got this tag right!" - the fact is that tag bombing to this degree is almost always disruptive, and when many of these are blatantly wrong... then the user shouldn't be performing such actions. It's as simple as that. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Semi-automated tagging with Twinkle of a series of articles with minimal or no investigation is disruptive and probably a mark of tendentious editing. It does seems that this is an editor who does other things than that, fortunately. A strong Knock It The Hell Off message needs to be sent. Carrite (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Any admins wish to act on this now? Lugnuts 19:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

LF topic ban Discussion

Of the current 6,929,359 articles, about a quarter million have {{Unreferenced}} tags, to pick one example.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. I actually do have a problem with tagging articles. Once upon a time some wikiperson had the road to hell is paved with good intentions idea that, upon finding a problem, instead of fixing it, they'd place a tag on the top the page so that some mythical, unicorn like massive herd of editors would appear and fix 'em. They're a bureaucratic, make work for other people abomination that should go away. Since so many folks like them, of course, a whatever-for-deletion would unfortunately be WP:POINTY which is why I haven't filed it. Given that they exist, and they're acceptable to the community, unless anyone can provide evidence that tags are consistently wrong, Lachlan Foley should not be banned from adding them. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

302860 for {{citation needed}}. Thank you for providing me with a method of verifying that adding that tag is of no particular benefit.—Kww(talk) 23:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I use {{citation needed}} when improving an article towards GA status, for information in the article when I found it that I'm prepared to believe is true, but haven't found a source for yet. The main difference here is that I take responsibility for the tag when I'm adding it. Ritchie333 14:28, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for an admin to close this topic ban proposal

I can't imagine much more relevant discussion is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 21:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Conduct of J Doug McLean

This user is a published author, who has made some valuable contributions at Talk:lift (force). However, I am concerned about his conduct towards myself and others.

I joined the discussion last August, partly because of this comment, arguing from authority against other authors and implying they were not "aware of these pressure forces". This was refuted by evidence from the sources. Since then, I have seen an ongoing pattern of incivility towards anyone who disagrees with him. To highlight just a few examples:
8 October 2014: Claim that different numerical results are, "comparing what different sources say about precisely the same question".
13 November 2014: Dismissal of reasoned review of evidence as 'intuition', 'speculation', and 'protestation' (previously brought to ANI).
5 December 2014: Claim that source "supports what I've been arguing all along." (Refuted.)
11 January 2015: Refusal to listen to another user, "at this point yours would seem to be a minority view. Does anyone else oppose my adding this new subsection?"

Finally, I asked for specific evidence of verifiability for one of his claims and was not satisfied with his response. He has already been asked publicly and personally to refer to WP:VERIFICATION. He proposes insertion of a footnote that looks to me like WP:OR, but he only seems to refer to policy when it supports his argument.

I've had enough of arguing with him. Please evaluate his conduct and take any steps necessary to protect the community. Burninthruthesky (talk) 13:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Doug McLean is a cited author in the article. In his published works he also criticises a standard introductory approach to the subject, and for many months now has been trying to push his minority PoV on the article. He has a clear conflict of interest, and to his credit has avoided editing himself but has confined himself to the talk page. However the discussions became interminable and sometimes less than gentlemanly, and I joined the debate to help manage them. That succeeded partially, though they now fill at least two archives,7 and 8, as well as the current talk page. Despite a strong warning there, and again on their talk page, the excessive pedantry still trickles on. I should like to propose a voluntary topic ban for say six months, both to give us all a breather and to give Doug a chance to learn more constructive approaches to editing Misplaced Pages. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I certainly need a break from this endless conflict. It would be much easier for me just to remove the article from my watchlist, but I don't think that's the right thing to do. Burninthruthesky (talk) 07:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I participated in the discussion in question, often re-reading Doug McLean's and others' comments several times in order to better understand them, so I am quite familiar with the issue. There were/are disagreements among the editors including myself. In my view, at the times when the discussion began to border on incivility it was not Doug McLean who was being uncivil. While the administrators are welcome to wade through the walls of text on the Talk page, I don't think there's anything actionable there at least as far as Doug McLean's behavior. And I don't think bringing this up in AN/I is conducive towards building consensus. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Mr. Swordfish, after some pause for thought, I can perhaps understand why you don't see it. Doug is very knowledgeable, eloquent and persuasive. He would never sink to the level of calling someone a "dilettante" (as someone else did). But no amount of careful wording can hide the underlying message, "you're wrong" that has been consistently levelled against others, regardless of what the evidence says. No doubt some of the mistakes that have been alleged were in fact wrong. We all make mistakes. I know I've made some, and I've corrected myself where I can. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as we're willing to learn.

You were rightly offended by the other incident, and chose to report it, as you are entitled. Personally I found that event far less distressing than the remainder of the last six months. Perhaps this helps you understand how I feel about this situation. If you do have any unresolved concerns about another editor's conduct, you should raise it with them, with evidence, in the appropriate place. If you have unresolved content issues, they should of course be raised on the article talk page. Burninthruthesky (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC); edited 22:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

As a participant in one of the most recent discussions, I have found Doug a bit verbose and maybe hard to get on the same page with, but definitely nothing actionable at AN/I. Sometimes debates go over-long. I think things have mostly been handled in a responsible way. That said, I haven't been over to that page in the last few months - I'll look at where things have gone since then and comment again if possible. That said, it's not at all unreasonable for people with a disagreement to be negative about one anothers' positions. Obviously he thinks we're wrong; we think he's wrong! I kinda wonder if any remaining content disputes might actually be best resolved with a conference call between the primaries or something, if that's feasible. 0x0077BE 15:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@0x0077BE: I can't agree that things were handled in a responsible way. To give a relevant example, at one point we were asked, "If 0x0077BE and Burninthruthesky think The Statement is true for some control volume other than the infinitely tall sliver, they need to tell us specifically what control volume that is and provide citable sources for their assertion."

I don't think I made any such assertion (see my link to "evidence" above). Did you? Burninthruthesky (talk) 10:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Notability tagging, IMHO frivolous and disruptive, of a Star Trek episode

An editor, User:Doniago, has been applying a "dispute as to notability" tag on our article for one of the 79 original Star Trek episodes, The Gamesters of Triskelion. Although this article could certainly use more links to out-of-universe discussion of the episode, it is quite obvious, and has been accepted for years, that every original Star Trek episode is notable enough to warrant an article. No explanation has been offered as to why this particular episode should be an exception (a point I make here with some hesitation, as it should not be taken as a basis for tagging a dozen or more other episodes either).

There being no reasonable basis for questioning the notability of this particular episode, or any episode, I have attempted to remove the tag, although I have not removed a parallel tag asking for more links or citations. Doniago has repeatedly insisted on reinstating the tag. Ordinarily this would merely result in a talkpage discussion, which would eventually result in enough people who understand the historical importance of Star Trek coming to the page to create the obvious a consensus for notability. However, the community's time is its most precious asset and I do not believe it should be squandered in a lengthy discussion about a nonsensical tagging (after all, is there any doubt that if this article were taken to AfD, the result would be a speedy or snowball keep?)?

I request input on whether my view of this as a frivolous tag is shared by others, or whether the community believes that in such a matter as this, we should engage in process for the process' own sake. (Notification being given to Doniago and on the article talkpage.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

All 79 episode articles are equally notable. Why Doniago feels otherwise, is a mystery to me. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Equally notable as any other. Are they a new editor(like myself) who is just a bit confused on how to go about making it clear that the article needs improvement? FlossumPossum (talk) 22:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a new editor, just one who doesn't believe that all Star Trek episodes are notable any more than he would agree that all Lord of the Rings characters are equally notable. I asked for any prior consensus establishing that all ST episodes are inherently considered notable and was not provided one. I also asked for any independent source that had discussed the episode in significant detail and, again, was not provided with one. If the consensus is that all ST episodes merit an article regardless of how well-developed they are then I'll bow to that consensus, but I think to dismiss an editor's sincere concerns that an article may not meet Notability concerns, to summarily remove maintenance tags while not engaging in conversation on the matter, and to further dismiss the editor's concerns as "frivolous" is inappropriate. Then there's bringing the editor to ANI without making any evident effort to follow other Dispute Resolution processes... Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy to unwatch the article and let it remain as substandard as it is if trying to call attention to it is going to engender such a hostile and unwarranted response. DonIago (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

From what I've read at the article-in-question's talkpage, there's a consensus that the episode is notable. GoodDay (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

DonIago, if you can realistically imagine an article like that getting deleted at AfD on notability grounds, then you are new to Misplaced Pages, so I'll just gently tell you that such a deletion would be extremely unlikely and that you'll come to understand this with more experience. And if you understand already that the article wouldn't be deleted in such an AfD, then adding the notability tag is frivolous, as Brad says. There's a huge difference between saying an article needs improvement and that the topic is non-notable. Generally, if you think an article is substandard, unless it's seriously biased or misleading our readers, it's best to either WP:SOFIXIT or leave it alone. Putting in tags telling other people to fix it just uglies up the article and makes you look like a dick. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 01:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

That's funny, I thought the point of tagging was to call out problems that needed to be fixed and that might go ignored otherwise. One doesn't need to be in a position to fix a problem to recognize that a problem exists, and is it not better to "fire off a flare", as it were, then to simply let substandard articles propagate? DonIago (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The intention of the tags was something like that, but they were another of those well-meaning ideas that (IMHO) hasn't worked in practice. The way to deal with a bad article is fix it yourself, or leave a note on the talk page with specific criticisms. If you don't care about it enough to do either of those things but tag the article anyway, you're just a busybody, and the tags make reading or editing the article distasteful enough that it's less likely to ever be improved. Edit warring over the tag compounds the problem, in this case to the point where it's worse than whatever was wrong with the article. Use the talk page, but also try to understand Misplaced Pages culture when deciding what to do about a particular article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me if I don't give a lot of credence to the views of an IP editor who engages in borderline personal attacks and has less than a week's worth of editing under their belt. DonIago (talk) 05:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In terms of Misplaced Pages practice that ship has long since sailed regardless of what we deletionists (I count myself as one) think. The tagging is frivolous and pointy and Doniago ought to meditate for a while on the meaning of NOTBURO, with administrative assistance if it comes to that.

As a content question I don't have any real concern about our ability to write a neutral article about something as old as a TOS episode anyway, so I'm not particularly bothered by the articles' presence. There's millions of other articles that I'd chop (like all the BLP's) before getting around to the TOS episodes. No they're not equally notable, and I agree that Gamesters of Triskelion was one of the weaker ones despite the presence of Angelique Pettyjohn. But the presence of an article for each TOS ep is an ancient Misplaced Pages reality and if someone has an issue with it, it's best to start a Village Pump discussion (or Jimbo's talk page ) rather than tag bombing an article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 23:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The most important thing right now, is that the back-and-forth adding/deleting of the tag, has stopped. GoodDay (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

One quatloo on keep. --NE2 23:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Somehow, I knew that kinda joke would surface :) GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I approve. DonIago (talk) 00:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In general, I think we have way too low of a bar on individual episodes and characters. In this case I do think its likely that this episode would be found notable but I don't think the tagging was in bad faith or is an issue for ANI though. I do think we need to have some wide ranging RFCs to nail down these criteria though. Personally, I think that if every episode is regularly covered by reviews, or in a "trek encyclopedia" etc that is not a sign of individual notability but series notability. To show episode notability, sources that do not cover every single episode are what we need. (IE, AV club, or TVCritic reviewing an ep does not show notability. When Time, or the NYT, or someone like that writes about an episode it does. ) Gaijin42 (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. That's pretty much exactly what the thrust of my argument has been with regards to this situation. DonIago (talk) 04:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point is a no-no even if the point being made is valid. Don't war over a content tag to pursue a larger wiki-crusade. If you want to pursue a crusade, start a mailing list thread or something. Non-notability of ST:TOS episodes is one of the stupider crusades a person could pursue in my opinion though. I can suggest some much better ones if you're interested (HHOS). 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

This has long seemed to have been a problem. If something truly is "inherently notable", it should be trivial to cite sufficient sources showing that it is. I wouldn't have any issue at all citing sufficient references to maintain a full article on, say, a US President or a chemical element, so if anyone questioned notability there, I could quickly and definitively prove them wrong. If such references aren't available, it really is time to question the notability of the subject. That being said, the person questioning the notability should also have done their homework and done at least a reasonable search for references, and should note what they did that failed to find sufficient material to sustain a full article. Seraphimblade 20:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, the article has been tagged for needing citations since 2012 and was tagged for questionable notability in June of 2014. That suggests to me that it may be a case that either sources aren't available or no editors care to provide them. I made some effort to find sources that would not necessarily be expected to discuss a ST episode and couldn't find any (which isn't to suggest that they don't exist). The editors I attempted to discuss this matter with at the article's Talk page either could not or simply did not provide such sources either. If any source had been provided then we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. I didn't open an AFD because I think there probably is a worthwhile source out there somewhere, but if I can't find one and nobody else currently monitoring the article is willing/able to do the footwork, then IMO the Notability tag seems appropriate for the time-being. DonIago (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

A notability tag on an article like this would make Misplaced Pages look absurd and I will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags, whether or not I have immediate access to my library of secondary Star Trek sources as a given moment. I do not believe this sort of tilting at notability windmills should be encouraged, as it results in gross misuses of community time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Can I ask how exactly placing a notability template on an article results in a "gross misuse of community time"? As Seraphim indicated, if a subject is notable then providing a source shouldn't be a problem.

In my estimation, by removing notability tags you're perpetutating the existence of potentially substandard articles while at the same time removing a tool that can lead to the improvement of those same articles. Put another way, I don't think I'm the one who's been frivolous and disruptive during this whole situation, and that's not even accounting for the fact that I was willing to discuss the matter while your first significant action beyond continually removing the tag was to raise the issue here. DonIago (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, Newyorkbrad, it would be better if you used your "energetic best efforts" to chastise editors that persist in keeping unsourced articles in the project? If, indeed, the article was about a notable topic, correcting it should have been fairly simple. Encouraging projects to believe that they are immune to standard sourcing requirements is what causes the trouble, as their misbehaviour tends to spread.—Kww(talk) 19:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind, before this ANI was started, the discussion in the episode's talk page did include sources. While we really prefer the sources to be included on the article, our pre-AFD checklist says that sources identified on talk page - if they would be the type to meet notability requirements - are sufficient to demonstrate notability. --MASEM (t) 19:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• You may want to query some of the folks at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Star Trek. — Ched :  ?  01:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I've notified WP:STAR TREK. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

And I've wandered over after seeing that post. :) The subject of whether or not an article on episodes of television series which only contain plots has come up a few times over the past couple of years since I've been involved with the project. It's not so much a case of whether or not the article is notable or not, just whether or not they meet the style guide for television episodes. Equally episodes of other series (Stargate SG-1 springs to mind) have been changed to redirects to the episode/season lists. Certainly for me, this is a much better situation than simply deleting the article entirely as it allows the historical article to be restored when expansion does occur. However, in previous discussions, those plots have been left alone as we've demonstrated as a project that we are working through the 700+ live action episode articles (nearing 100 GAs now) but we have well over 600 to go. Our TOS expert has returned and is working up "Space Seed" for FA, and I'm sure once he's through that then he'll intend to start fixing up the other TOS articles too. Plus since the publication of These Are The Voyages, there has been a resurgence in information avaliable as this published production notes and Nielsen ratings for all the TOS episodes for the first time. From online sources, I can quickly find two reviews from reliable sources (AV Club and Tor.com) specifically for this episode as well as a book discussing the slash relationship between Kirk and Spock hinted at in this episode and comparing it to the 1960's Batman series. I think the current tag requiring further citations is entirely appropriate, while it's notability isn't simply inherited by virtue of it's status as a TOS episode but by the coverage it has received. Miyagawa (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

My impression, as things seem to have quieted down in this discussion, is that there's no clear consensus as to whether the article should be tagged. While a citation to the NYT has since been added to the article, it is more of a throwaway contained within a review of a film than substantial coverage. As being tagged for notability does not harm the article and may lead to its improvement, my feeling is that the tag should be permitted for the time-being. As more than one editor noted above, if editors take issue with the article being tagged, they have the option of providing information with appropriate citations to establish how this particular episode is independently notable. All that being said, I obviously don't want to add the tag myself and then find myself back here, and I'm also concerned by Brad's previous statement that he "will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags". Would an admin be willing to support my or another editor's re-adding of the tag? Thank you very much. DonIago (talk) 14:38, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm about to add a source or two, so tagging would probably be a waste of time. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hey Doniago. Let me start by saying that I understand your concerns, and they're not particularly new.

We editors are but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of pop culture, and even a phenomenon like Star Trek really only has a couple of editors making things happen (h.t. especially to Miyagawa for picking up a lot of the slack I dropped while I was on ArbCom.) So while we work, there are a lot of articles that are mostly just summaries, because that was the easiest thing to add back in the day. And a year from now, a good deal of the 700-odd Star Trek episodes are going to in the same situation.

I can understand it's frustrating to just be told "it is notable" without a lot of evidence for it, but that's the case when you're dealing with people with a greater knowledge of the subject; it might be obvious to us but not to you, and I don't think that's your fault. We're just dealing with inside baseball. I know I've come across articles from (admittedly smaller) franchises like Gundam and pointed out how they read as cruft, and had people up in arms in a similar way.

I've gone ahead and added as ELs Tor and AV Club's review of the episodes, and there are a couple others that I don't think work as ELs that could be used as references.

Articles like these really come down to, "is it worth deleting an article that has a lot of verifiable info out there, but which is not in the article," and "is it the challenger's responsibility to add that information?" I would say that it's in the spirit of wiki-collaboration to do your best to add, but also understand that a random article you come across isn't your area of expertise and we can't all be content mavens. With all respect to User:Newyorkbrad's determinations, I don't consider your edits disruptive (they are certainly less wasteful of everyone's time than going straight to AfD, and possibly deleting the article and having to recreate it later); I find tagging articles and keeping them on our radars a helpful thing to do, and that editors tend to get riled up by maintenance tags more than they should be.

(On the subject of notability, I think it's arguable that Star Trek's immense notability doesn't exactly encompass all its episodes, but I think that's less true for the original series episodes, which have been the subject of many contemporary reviews, books on the production, etc. Later series like Voyager have less written about them on an individual basis and are the ones that might benefit from a merge into a season article, for instance; but first you'd have to get to each one and evaluate them with all the sources in hand.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments David. For now I'm at least content to wait to see Sarek's improvements to the article, and I certainly don't think there's any rush to re-tag the article; my main concern was that I didn't want this filing archived without a clear indication of whether tagging the article would be acceptable, or would land me right back here.

I certainly appreciate that progress on bringing the article to the point that (my) notability concerns are satisfied may take time, and I know there's no deadline. While I think it's appropriate to tag the article in its current condition, if someone was going to nominate it for deletion it wouldn't be me. As I've said, I consider one of the benefits of tagging to be that, while the article is waiting to be improved as part of a process, editors may be alerted to the issue via the tag and opt to improve the article on their own initiative. And as I also said, tagging the article doesn't do it any harm.

I'd probably agree that TOS episodes are more likely to be notable than episodes of later series, though that could depend on which particular episodes are being compared.

Anyway, thanks again. As I said, I'll hold off on re-tagging at least until I've seen Sarek's changes, and I'll wait to hear from an admin that re-tagging is permissible before I risk getting myself into (further?) trouble. DonIago (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Massive POV pushing problem at WP:FRINGE and Indo-Aryan topics

A group of Hindu POV editors are pushing the Fringe POV that the Indo-European languages originated in India. They are doing this through absurd argumentation such as systematically misrepresenting linguistic facts and making absurd Randy from Boise type arguments such as this one. For the record I have made uncivil comments in response to frustration over the absurd "argumentation" displayed by one of the editors, Bladesmulti (talk · contribs). If there is a boomerang in store for me that is worth it to get some administrative support at these discussions. The discussions are located at Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Proposed_Hypothesis.2FTheory_as_fact and Talk:Indo-Aryan_migration_hypothesis.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

For how long you have discussed the hypothesis on fringe theory noticeboard? Only 30 minutes? I had only asked you to name "a single scientist who claims it(hypothesis) to be scientific?" Can you consider finding one instead of misinterpreting a hypothesis as a science when it is contradictory to the actual scientific researches and accepted migration(Early human migrations)? You are clearly contradicting the Misplaced Pages:FRINGE clearly says that "It is important that original hypotheses that have gone through peer review do not get presented in Misplaced Pages as representing scientific consensus or fact." When you are aiming to represent it as a fact. Bladesmulti (talk) 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

You meanwhile are countering my citations to prominent indoeuropeanists in peer reviewed academic presses with citations to books written by Punjabi accountants and supported by money from religious hindutva organizations. So why should anyone take a word you say seriously? You are promoting fringe views and attempting to marginalize the mainstream academic view through obfuscation and outright lying. You need to be topic banned from anything related to ancient India caus eyou are clearly not here to write an encyclopedia.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Much nonsense. In fact my citations have better quality. Now show me a single fringe view that I have promoted? Doubting the scientific status of a hypothesis, that already has no acceptance in the scientific community is not actually incorrect but it is the reflection Misplaced Pages:FRINGE that warns you against interpreting unscientific hypothesis as fact. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You are an admitted advocate of Ayurveda, Blades. Is that not sufficiently fringe for you? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Where did I admit it? Bladesmulti (talk) 09:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

(It should be noted that Blades has changed the text in his comment above so that my response to him looks slightly odd. I was in fact replying to his comment "Show me a single fringe view that I have promoted?" which he has now changed to mean something a little different. an unfortunate , but not untypical action. It would be accurate to point out that Blades is a wp:spa account dedicated to the promotion of fringe views and pseudoscience.) -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Whatever else Bladesmulti may or may not be, they are not a single-purpose account. I seem them pop up all over the place, fixing the rampant problems relating to caste articles etc and whatever this argument is about, it has nothing to do with the issues that they are usually fixing there. - Sitush (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can see that from the diff. Oh and nice jokes, only because your pseudohistorical revisionism didn't got accepted even after a huge RfC. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

What diff? What jokes? Also, I've asked you before to explain what "Pseudohistorical Revisionism" actually means, but you have never answered. Do you actually know what it means? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

See Pseudohistory, describes it. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In discussion at the Administrators Noticeboard. Do you deny it? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Not directly neither indirectly, only discussed it. You are mixing things there, and I am not getting that what it has to even do here, unless that is a violation of a policy. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I assume you don't deny it then. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

What is your base? I had asked for some links that you have not yet provided. Don't worry about the 0 revert rule on that page, it wouldn't be removed through this way. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry Blades, your comment above doesn't make any sense at all. For the record, my base is London, but other than that, I cannot make any sense of the above remark. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Clearly I had asked for the link for the above claims that you have made. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

No, you don't appear to have made such a request, unless it is couched in language that is so obfuscatory that it has passed me by. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

was itself enough for any regular user to understand. Now just admit that you cannot show your claimed red herring, in form of diffs, but gibberish. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I made no claims regarding fish, or food of any kind. I merely pointed out that you advocate for the pseudoscience of Ayurveda, contrary to your claim above that you do not promote fringe material. I had not realised that you advocate for fringe topics outside pseudoscience as well. Could you please explain your reference to gibberish above. Is that a personal attack? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if you point to at least one such topic. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You could start by examining the three examples that Maunus maunus maunus provided in the first post to this thread. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

A general point about 'Fringe' on Indo Aryan topics:- According to Upinder Singh "The original homeland of the Indo-Euorpeans and Indo-Aryans is the subject of continuing debate among philologists, linguists, historians, archaeologists and others. The dominant view is that the Indo-Aryans came to the subcontinent as immigrants. Another view, advocated mainly by some Indian scholars, is that they were indigenous to the subcontinent." She acknowledges that "Subhash Kak has argued that the astronomical references in the Rigveda can be dated 4000-2000 BCE". She goes on to say "The date of Rig Veda remains a problematic issue." That means we don't know about the origins of vedic people nor their period, so to be encyclopedic we should recognize this uncertainty and not reject views of scholars disagreeing with Kurgan_hypothesis as only 'fringe'. That makes no sense. A dominant view is not necessarily the only view and it is not necessarily always correct. Dominant number of people in Europe disagreed with Galileo when he proposed his heliocentic view. He was even arrested for it. That does not make him 'fringe' and certainly not wrong.. In order to be balanced the correct picture of this uncertainty should be reflected in the articles dealing with this subject. Rather than targeting editors who are trying to bring this balance. Every scholar who disagrees with Kurgan_hypothesis does not necessarily become a hindu nationalist and any editor bringing about the balance by pointing out uncertainty does not become Hindu POV pusher. Indoscope (talk) 09:51, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Propose topic ban for User:Bladesmulti

User Bladesmulti has a long history of POV pushing on India and Hinduism related articles. They are using wikilawyering and other strategies to systematically misrepresent the scholarly mainstream consensus in the field and create insane amounts of work for good faith editors to defend the mainstream views acrosss different articles related to hinduism and the history of India. I propose they be topic banned from the topic area.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Disagreeing with a unscientific hypothesis should lead to topic ban? Really? None of your scholarly mainstream consensus holds any weight on scientific world, and atleast when they don't even talk about the scientific evidence but mostly the proposed linguistic similarities. I have mentioned before too, that no one has professed this hypothesis since 2011(DNA researches-) like they did before. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

No, POV pushing, lying and obfuscating, using unreliable sources, misrepresnrting reliable sources, and misrepresenting policy should lead to a topic ban.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• And where are the diffs? We also see scholars who actually claim the advocacy of these unscientific hypothesis as "unscientific".(changed) Bladesmulti (talk) 00:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you even read what you quote you gigantic moron. That is Jamison describing the proponents of the "Indigenous Aryan" hypothesis. For crying out loud when you cant even read three sentences in a row without getting them to mean the opposite of what they actually mean then how can you even claim to be competent enough that you should be allowed to edit here. You are pure and simple a waste of bandwidth and other editor's time and a clear detriment to the project of building an encylcopedia.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• "Gigantic moron"? You were asked to provide diffs, not to repeat the same inflammatory nonsense. Oh and where did I said that I was talking about the Indo-aryan hypothesis and not Indigenious Aryans? I was saying that I am not in favor of either hypothesis, again you have failed to grasp what I was saying. OK you can see -, the elements of Indo-Aryan hypothesis are indeed pseudoscientific. Bladesmulti (talk)

You changed the quote where an actual linguist states that your favorite pov is emotional and unscientific to a link to a book by notorious hindutva hack Srikanth Talageri in an attempt to show that the mainstream view is "pseudoscientific". An edition of the Rigveda does not show anything about the scientific consensus about indoeuropean linguistics. Honestly I wish I could get blocked here so I wouldnt have to feel responsible for not stopping your abuse of wikipedia. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing opinions with the Misplaced Pages:FRINGE if a person(I mentioned as scholar) from the same field has expressed view, that is similar with many others, we cannot rejected it. It is considered that both of the hypothesis are incorrect, the previous one, "Indo Aryan" invasion theory is already rejected by mainstream as pseudoscientific. You are still not understanding that we cannot consider any of your claimed mainstream linguistic understanding, when all of them comes before the DNA researches. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you perchance show a source that suggests that the "DNA Researches" (which say the opposite of what you believe they say) are relevant for the question of Indo-Aryan migrations?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Not even close to that, report says that no genetic influx took place. And suggesting that there was no admixture for over 40,000 years. In order to analyze the material about the proposed migrations, it is necessary to mention the DNA researches. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Indiatoday? That is your answer?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 06:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

And times of India,(who derived it from Harvard medical), all 3 are reliable. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

No they are not reliable sources for genetics, and their summaries coontradict the abstract of the study they are supposedly summarizing.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

From where you have confirmed that? Bladesmulti (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Without a significant number of diffs this proposal will not go anywhere and is just a waste of time. And the latest comment should send a WP:BOOMERANG flying. --NeilN 02:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• I'd suggest a boomerang as well for Maunus. There's no evidence of problematic behavior actually presented here aside from just claims made here. I tried to make sense of the actual content dispute over at the Fringe noticeboard, but there really aren't sources being brought forth by anyone that really establish scientific consensus per WP:RS/AC. Just seems like a difficult content dispute that's tough to gauge where the actual weight lies without really delving into the topic. That being said, asking for an editor to be topic banned without clearly articulating the actual problem with actual diffs is not a content dispute, but just plain bad behavior. That doesn't mean their concerns aren't legitimate, but if they're going to make the claim, they need to really back it up. Right now I'm just seeing WP:ASPERSIONS. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I am prepared for boomerangs. However if anyone is actually interested in writing an encyclopedia here they would be more concerned about religiously motivated POV pushing in science articles. Kingofaces is talking without any knowledge about the topic except for a google search and he has not looked at any of the actual evidence provided.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

That still looks like aspersions. You're only shooting yourself in the foot at this point. The "google search" you refer to was actually through literature databases like Web of Science, etc (though Google Scholar isn't half bad). Considering the general attitude I'm seeing here and things like "I would suggest that everyone who is not a professional historical linguist step back and listen to those who are actually knowledgeable in this area." a boomerang seems warranted in this case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Look, I dont care. You are the one who ise going to end up looking like an idiot when you sanction someone who knows what they are talking about in order to support a religious nutcase with no clue and no competence.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

At least learn to spell before repeating some inflammatory nonsense. Bladesmulti (talk)

At ANI, you don't just make a claim and run. You need to back it up. If you want someone topic banned for being a religious POV nutcase, then you need to actually demonstrate that's occurring and it's being disruptive. Not doing that is why you aren't being taken seriously here and why the only justification for any action is against you right now. You've made your bed in this matter, so I'm not going to try to help anymore if all you're going to do is only make accusations. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Lol. "At ani you dont just make a claim and run"... How long have you been frequenting ANI? I am however not running anywhere. Thanks for all your "help".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I do see some signs of disruptive editing on the part of Bladesmulti here. Not sure yet whether it rises to the level where immediate sanctions are called for, but at least a warning is probably appropriate (and I'll notify him of the India discretionary sanctions, just in case). Blademulti's behaviour at the noticeboard thread on Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard and in the related discussions at Talk:Indo-Aryan migration theory tends towards WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT type of stonewalling. What's more, this edit from today appears to be removing a validly sourced claim and a footnote to an appropriate source, without any explanation in an edit summary and no discussion on talk. As far as I can see, the point in question, that the Indo-Aryan migration also has genetic evidence in its favour besides linguistic and archaeological, is precisely relevant to the objections he was trying to raise in those discussions. He was claiming that there was a lack of "scientific" evidence for migration; here now we have a source providing just that (I checked the pages in question; the source does support exactly what it says). Unless he can come up with a very surprising good explanation for this edit, I would certainly count this as disruptive tendentious editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise Yesterday I had removed the same one from Indo-European migrations with edit summary "not in citation" because the cited book has no mention(of even Aryan) or support towards that claim. At p.167 it is talking about 10,000 years old, which was later superseded. At page.168 it says about one of the same hypothesis that genetic evidence provides no support. It wasn't objected there and I was actually pointed on my talk page for similar changes that yes it wasn't on the citation. On this page, that you have pointed, I was only repeating the same change. It is mostly me and Joshua who are making most of the changes on these pages in last few months. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, we clearly have a WP:COMPETENCE issue here. The cited source says on p.167: "This strongly suggests that M17 is an Indo-European marker, and shows that there was a massive genetic influx into India from the steppes within the last 10,000 years. Taken with the archaeological data, we can say that the old hypothesis of an invasion of people – not merely their language – from the steppe appears to be true". Whether or not it mentions the term "Aryan", this is about as clear as it gets. Bladesmulti, if you do not recognize this source for what it is, then it will be a lot better for the project if you do not continue try to edit in topic areas like this. I am now officially warning you that I will take action against your editing under WP:ARBIPA discretionary sanctions if you continue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Another competence issue is seen on this very page when he quotes Bryants book as calling the Aryan migraiton theory "emotional" and "unscientific" when in fact it is Jamison saying that about the Indigenous Aryan theory. That can only be explained as either a bad faith attempt at obfuscating well knowing that most editors wont read the source he presents, or it is such an amazing lack of competence that he probably should not be allowed to edit at all. Every time he has presented a source it has had similar problems. Either they are veiled propaganda sources published by people with no relevant credentials backed with Hindutva money, or he misrepresents the conclusions of actual studies such as the genetic study which exactly argues that NOrth Indians (Indo-European speakers) are genetically distinct from South Indians and have genetic connections with IE speakers in Europe and Central Asia. So there are two possibilities, lack of competence or bad faith. Either way I am not intetrested in wasting more time on it and hence proposed the topic ban.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

There is competence issue on your part here. I hadn't mentioned either hypothesis in the post, thus you got it wrong, but I had changed it for you so it couldn't look anymore meaningless, you had expected just opposite. Yet you claimed that I am showing wrong wording of the policy when I had shown completely correct. Not your rapid OR/SYNTH that you have just made up above. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)(rephrased)

Enough. You were caught red-handed in blatant misrepresentation of sources, claiming that reliable sources called the mainstream hypotheses "emotional" and "unscientific", when the source you used was in fact saying the exact opposite, and now you are trying to wiggle out of it by claiming you didn't actually say which hypothesis you were referring to? When it was perfectly clear from the context of the first two posts that you could only be referring to the hypotheses your opponents were claiming to be the mainstream, i.e. the migration view? This is getting more than just bizarre now. You really need to back off from this topic, in which you have entangled yourself hopelessly, or somebody will have to make you disengage from it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

If that's that case, I have just told before that I would rather contribute with more caution. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

That edit isn't great. The real issue here is the usual content dispute that emerges when people try to use DNA evidence in Indic articles. The source Bladesmulti removed, for example, appears to be at least 13 years old and is a subjective interpretation in a rapidly-evolving area of scientific knowledge. Almost certainly, we need to be couching things in much more circumspect terms and attributing them within the text itself. But, still, Blades should argue for that circumspection rather than just wipe it as they did. Maunus, in my experience, is not keen on circumspection so the entire thing could well end up at DRN or similar. - Sitush (talk) 14:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes it shows 10k for the migration into the US, although such dating have been updated for years, it is about 15,000 now. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Maunus that Blades' defending tooth and nail of a hopeless position is highly annoying. Yet, he still seems to know when to stop, in contrast to some other biased editors. I've also seen some constructive discussions at the related talkpages, for example Talk:Indigenous Aryans#Balance, which gives me good hope that most editors involved can still work together. The Fringe Theory Noticeboard gave a very clear statement, with which we can go forward, I think (well, most of us, not everyone diff, thread). So, I'd prefer to give Blades again the benefit of doubt. This being said, I very highly appreciate Maunus' contributions, and hope to meet him again in this area! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

What is wrong with the admins who are watching this page, calling someone a gigantic moron by a former admin is OK? Maunus has a history of making personal attacks and he is being given a very long rope here. This very much looks like a content dispute and Maunus just wants to silence the other party. Most of his complaints are not really backed up by any diffs. -sarvajna (talk) 10:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker

I have proposed a topic-ban at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker, after re-opening the discussion (Misplaced Pages talk:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Not very happy about recent closure of debate) which was just closed. See below. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe this is the correct link.VictoriaGrayson 14:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. Thanks. What an irony: a self-referring link. Somehow fits into the whole discussion... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Singh, Upinder. A History of Ancient and Early Mediaeval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. pp. 185–186. ISBN 978-81-317-1120-0. Retrieved 28 January 2015.

RfC is opened

I've opened an RfC at Talk:Indigenous Aryans#RfC: the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is fringe-theory. Let's keep it civilised. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Issues continuing at The Lost River

Many of the same cast of characters discussed/discussing above are now tangling at The Lost River, another ancient-India-related article. My attention was called to that, by this: Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#Books_advocating_a_fringe_theory. We have three big threads on this page with these folks. I think Robert McClenon was correct back on Jan 27 when he recommended) that these threads be shut down and an arbitration enforcement case be opened under WP:ARBIPA with respect to India-related issues. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreement and restatement

As User:Jytdog points out, there is a lot of heated discussion between specific editors about various topics involving ancient India. In my opinion, this noticeboard should not try to adjudicate conduct issues that can be adjudicated by Arbitration Enforcement, and the ancient history of India is subject to WP:ARBIPA, because, as the arbitrators have restated, the modern conflicts on the Indian subcontinent are inextricable from the ancient history of the region. The administrators at Arbitration Enforcement do a good job of deliberate application and enforcement of sanctions. The community should not try to adjudicate conduct issues that have already been identified as polarizing the community, and India is such an area. Take the ancient India issues to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

One particular editor has been identified as having conduct issues that go beyond ancient India, and include Buddhism, which is not subject to discretionary sanctions except with respect to its country of origin (and the locus appears to be Tibetan Buddhism, not Indian Buddhism). Conduct issues involving Buddhism really are in scope here, such as the request for a topic-ban. I did propose an interaction ban with respect to stalking on an India-related issue, and I request that its discussion be continued, because the most obvious evidence of the stalking took place before that editor was notified of discretionary sanctions, and because stalking is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy without respect to discretionary sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that the India-related threads be closed and taken to Arbitration Enforcement. I will let the community decide how the original threads should be closed, by consensus here, or by moving to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The problems with RW do indeed stand apart from the india-topic; it should be judged on its own. Regarding the IAMt, OIT & FRINGE, personally I'd prefer to let the RfC run its course, so everyone can participate and give their arguments, and we can settle this issue once and for all. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the analysis of JJ. As the RFC has improved much of the article already. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree. The RFC has been deadlocked with the same old arguments and the attitudes of the editors pushing fringe theories haven't changed. We can give the RFC some more time. But it would be wrong to conclude that the issues have been resolved. Far from it. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I have improved the article; Indoscope has aided to this (oh irony), by providing summaries of various "publications." I simply hope that this RfC is binding; if not, can ArbCom make a binding statement on the "status" of the OOI/Indigenist campaign? Or can they "only" (it's not "only," of course; it's quite a lot, I guess) sanction specific editors, judging on their behavior? Or can ArbCom also say: "This is fringe, it should not be given undue weight, and if you do so, DS applies, since this is about India"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Though it surely would help if we could close a couple of threads on OOI. I'm getting old; I have to check at which thread I'm responding when I click the "save page" button... NB: apologies for posting too many messages that I'd opened a ANI-thread on you-know-who; I was quite pissed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:44, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Tendentious editing by some editors Vedic Period - Neutrality of which is disputed

I would like to highlight the case of tendentious editing by some editors, who are gate keeping a particular WP:POV on Vedic Period - Neutrality of which was disputed by me. User talk:Joshua Jonathan and a group of editors including User talk: Kautilya3 have done a highly objectionable job by shifting the discussion from the talk page of Vedic Period and moving it to Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact without inviting/informing me since I had raised the question on neutrality of the article. By discussing the issue amongst like minded editors and coming to a conclusion without including all the points I have raised they have engaged in WP:GAMING and WP:TENDENTIOUS editing under "One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources". I had only wanted to build a consensus about presenting the views of other scholars who have done research on the topic of origins of Vedic People which is a highly debated issue and no scholarly consensus exists on it. The same fact about lack of consensus should reflect in the article to make it Neutral and encyclopedic. It should be noted that I had not engaged in any edit wars while trying to build consensus and had done so in good faith. Indoscope (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Joshua Jonathan had also the moved the page for book The_Lost_River by Michel Danino which is a notable book which details an alternative view to what he and a few other editors including User talk: Kautilya3 are pushing by engaging in WP:GANG. He had merged The_Lost_River with Michel Danino without first raising a merge notice. I believe to was done show it as frivolous and less notable than it is which can be seen from the talk page that these same to editors were involved in trying to remove that page. I later provided the relevant references of book review and restored that page which thankfully settled the issue.Indoscope (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Dear Indoscope, that thread was opened by Blades. I'm not your personal servant, as you will understand. NB: the correct link is Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact.

Regarding Danino, you moved it back, and added some reviews, which is fine with me.

Regarding WP:GANG: "As with meatpuppetry, editors may be accused of coordinating their actions to sidestep policies and guidelines (such as 3RR and NPOV)'." The Fringe Theory Board gave a very clear statement regarding the status of your favorite theories: it's fringe. There's a very clear consensus on that. Presenting fringe-theory as being equal to mainstrwam scholarship is POV-pushing. You may choose to do so, but that's clearly not in line with Wiki-policies.

Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with Vedic period. I offered an opinion on the The Lost River and suggested an RFC for merger. You decided to unmerge it, and Joshua Jonathan accepted your action. So, I don't see what is "tendentious" about it. Your input on Talk:Vedic period has been taken on board by Joshua Jonathan, and he is following up on those sources. See Talk:Indigenous Aryans#Souces. Again, there is nothing tendentious here. I would say you are wasting your time, and his time. Forget this. Kautilya3 (talk) 14:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I have not once said that User talk:Joshua Jonathan initiated Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact. I said he and User talk: Kautilya3 moved the entire discussion their without inviting me to participate when they were fully aware that I had initiated the WP:POV dispute Talk:Vedic_period#Neutrality_of_the_Article_in_Question. Total of 7 editors discussed over a short peiod of 2 odd days to decide that every scholar who does not agree with the Kurgan_hypothesis is fringe. That is far from representative, not enough editors participated and not enough time was given for other knowledgeable editors to join in. The issues of dispute raised in the Talk:Vedic_period#Neutrality_of_the_Article_in_Question were not discussed there. User talk:Joshua Jonathan based on that side discussion removed the WP:POV notice board. This entire behaviour in this episode was bad faith editing. Joshua had clearly invited like minded editor Kautilya3 to gang with him in the debate on Vedic Period article evidence here.

Joshua moved The_Lost_River page again with the same editor Kautilya3 involved evidence here. These two editors are collaborating to keep only a certain POV in the wikipedia articles rather than build balanced encyclopedic content evidence of WP:GANG here. Jonathan is driven to keep only a certain POV as dominant and collaborates with other like minded editors in doing so more evidence here.

According to Upinder Singh who was herself quoted out of context by Joshua Jonathan in his edits on Vedic_Period, "The original homeland of the Indo-Euorpeans and Indo-Aryans is the subject of continuing debate among philologists, linguists, historians, archaeologists and others. The dominant view is that the Indo-Aryans came to the subcontinent as immigrants. Another view, advocated mainly by some Indian scholars, is that they were indigenous to the subcontinent." She acknowledges that "Subhash Kak has argued that the astronomical references in the Rigveda can be dated 4000-2000 BCE". She goes on to say "The date of Rig Veda remains a problematic issue." That is exactly my point we don't know so to be encyclopedic we should recognize this uncertainty and not reject the other view as only 'fringe' that makes no sense. A dominant view is not necessarily the only view and it is not necessarily always correct. Dominant number of people in Europe disagreed with Galileo when he proposed his heliocentic view. He was even arrested for it. That does not make him 'fringe' and certainly not wrong..

I am alleging and have provided evidence above that these editors are engaging in WP:TENDENTIOUS editing under "One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources" and WP:GAMING the system to project only a particular WP:POV by way of collaborating in a WP:GANG Indoscope (talk) 07:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE:

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give undue weight to it."

In 2002 Kazanas was allowed to publish in "The Journal of Indo-European Studies", probably the only publication by an "Indigenist" in the JIES. Mallory, editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies, emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, and a member of the Royal Irish Academy, introduced this with an explanation, in which he stated:

"Many regard the scholarship of the Indigenous Indo-Aryan camp so seriously flawed that it should not be given an airing I indicated that I thought it would be unlikely that any referee would agree with conclusions ".

Michael Witzel warned, "It is certain that Kazanas, now that he is published in JIES, will be quoted endlessly by Indian fundamentalists and nationalists as "a respected scholar published in major peer-reviewed journals like JIES" -- no matter how absurd his claims are known to be by specialist readers of those journals. It was through means like these that the misperception has taken root in Indian lay sectors that the historical absurdities of Kak, Frawley, and even Rajaram are taken seriously by academic scholars."

] -Let's talk! 08:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Witzel has been responded to by Kazanas in an open letter here and here. His response was defended by Ashok Aklujkar by stating "I do not know what a researcher living in Greece would gain by risking his scholarly integrity or believability for reasons of Indian politics." "Dr. Kazanas has responded to Professor Witzel's comments, in what I, as someone knowing a thing or two about linguistics, consider a scientifically defensible or plausible way. Comparative-historical Indo-European linguistics is not, in theory or practice, a field where one view must always be at the expense of another view..

Dear User talk:Joshua Jonathan the edits I had done on Vedic_Period were not WP:UNDUE which I have explained to you earlier also even if a certain scholarship is not widely accepted it does not mean it cannot even be represented on the page. My edits which you reverted were not overshadowing the main thrust of the existing article. Only after due mention of the supposed' mainstream view had been represented the differing scholar's conclusion were added. wikipedia editors should not be sitting in judgement of scholars by deciding that so and so has been criticized by so and so and hence he/she is 'fringe'. We can equally find other scholars supporting that scholars view too. Above mentioned comments by you is another demonstration why I feel your editing has not been Neutral. Hence I have raised this ANI WP:TENDENTIOUS editing under "One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources" and I stand by it. Indoscope (talk) 14:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Singh, Upinder. A History of Ancient and Early Mediaeval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. pp. 185–186. ISBN 978-81-317-1120-0. Retrieved 28 January 2015.
2. Mallory, J. P. (2002). "Editor's Note: The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate". Journal of Indo-European Studies. 30 (3 & 4): 273–274.
5. Aklujkar, Ashok. "Letter to S Farmer" (PDF). www.omilosmeleton.gr. Retrieved 29 January 2015.

Behavior of Keepitreal2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am not 100% sure if this should be in Sockpuppet investigations, Edit warring or on this page. If I am in the wrong place, please let me know, I will move it.

I am requesting administrator intervention regarding Keepitreal2 behavior on Missouri Executive Order 44. Keepitreal2 has absolutely refused to discuss the edit made by her, instead demanding that all the editor "Let me be clear, give up already"

Keepitreal2 made 4 edits in December 2014 to Missouri.

1. (cur | prev) 21:30, 30 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,779 bytes) (+69)‎ . . (Removing it all validates my position it was an inconvenient truth.) (undo | thank)
2. (cur | prev) 18:06, 27 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 639714447 by Ecjmartin (talk) Many is not maximizing. It is accurate. The word missive incorrect, it was not a message or a letter, it is an ORDER. An inconvenient truth for you) (undo | thank)
3. (cur | prev) 14:37, 25 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 638664905 by Ecjmartin (talk) minimizing the deaths is not appropriate) (undo | thank)
4. (cur | prev) 19:08, 7 December 2014‎ Keepitreal2 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (23,778 bytes) (+919)‎ . . (Undid revision 636978996 by Ecjmartin (talk) Speculation has no place here. Facts only. To state the Militia did or did not know is pure speculation and is unverified) (undo | thank)

User:Ecjmartin (multiple times) and User:Tripleahg (one time), and user:AsteriskStarSplat attempting to use the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, reverted what (and I agree) were WP:POV edits. All three asked Keepitreal2 to discuss it on the talk page. Instead Keepitreal2 refused saying things like "Talk page addressing was not necessary". The Keepitreal2 began to using an IP address to edit instead:

1. (cur | prev) 01:53, 21 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:765:fc7a:aee7:3fa9:be63:ce08 (talk)‎ . . (23,783 bytes) (+352)‎ . . (Undid revision 642848168 by Ecjmartin (talk) Talk page adressing was not necessary. The issues were previously answered in explaining edits and were redundant.) (undo)
2. (cur | prev) 13:34, 16 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:2903:559d:2f78:15e8:5153:1b40 (talk)‎ . . (23,783 bytes) (+352)‎ . . (Adding edits back. My points are clear and concise. Inconvenient truth for some perhaps. Talk all you want,.) (undo)

I came along on 21 January 2015‎ and reverted Keepitreal2 myself and also requested that she take it to the talk page. Ecjmartin open a discussion. The on 26 January 2015‎ the IP editor restored Keepitreal2 version, again refusing to discuss the issue here:

1. (cur | prev) 19:15, 26 January 2015‎ 2607:fb90:2903:2eeb:e7e3:ecad:b8ef:48f8 (talk)‎ . . (25,872 bytes) (+969)‎ . . (InconvInconvenient truth. Stop trying to change history. As stated before, there is no proof they had no knowledge and given the political positions the men had there is more probability they knew than did not. Let me be clear, give up already) (undo)

This lead to the page being Semi-Protected for a month. In response, instead of taking the issues to the discussion, twice user Keepitreal2 posted on my talk page (here and here) that she is doing "Nothing wrong", that she "was not the one disrupting". She treated to "Report me". Then she stated that she is a "female", something we had no idea she was until today, and that we (Ecjmartin and myself) were "misogynistic" since we disagree with a "female". Lastly she states that "unequivocally you have an agenda" since I am not "Mormon" (the page is about Mormons), but I edit on "Mormon topics". Ironically, just this week I was accused of being a "Mormon apologists" here. Apparently I'm bias as a Non-Mormon Mormon apologists who can't make even ONE edit on pages about "Mormon topics".

Clearly Keepitreal2 has been edit waring, Sockpuppeting, and Uncivil. She refuses to use the talk page and follow Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Instead of addressing the issue she makes Uncivil comments. An admin need to address this behavior. What this is I leave to the administer.--- ARTEST4ECHO 16:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually it is me who has been bullied. My verifiable, scholared, sourced edits removed repeatedly. Being forced to state the same statements over and over. Deleting my response to conversations about me. I am being silenced. I am being falsely accused of having previous interactions with this person. The list goes on and on. It is infact misogynistic to assume I am male and refer to me as such. Yet another example of inconvenient truth. Keepitreal2 (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Just looking through some of your contributions Keepitreal2, I think you have been acting at the very least Rashly. You claim non mormons editing mormon pages must have an agenda which suggests POV issues.1 You've repeatedly re-inserted the information without discussion on the talk pages failing WP:BRD.2 and you're account has only edited pages related to this one dispute. If you just go to the talk page and discuss the best way to present information available in reliable sources this is much less likely to blow up into a dispute. SPACKlick (talk) 17:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Well to the casual observer it might appear that way unless you look at User:ARTEST4ECHO userpage and observe the history/pattern of the editor who started the disruption User:Ecjmartin consistently teaming with / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits. Not playing into their mob mentality does not place me in the wrong. Seeing their pattern of promoting their agenda puts me in a position to demonstrate their abuses. Keepitreal2 (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I welcome anyone to read what Keepitreal2 calls a "consistant pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits". It is all contained at User_talk:ARTEST4ECHO#A_question.... Please go read it.

However in a nutshell, User:Ecjmartin came to me, as a long time editor, to ask me what the proper procedure was to handle an IP editor who refused to use the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. He was frustrated and about to leave Misplaced Pages.

I told him what another unrelated administrator (who I think is Mormon) told me when I asked him the same question, but on a different page. We both agreed that the best thing to do was start a Talk:Missouri_Executive_Order_44#Recent_edits and again ask the IP editor to talk. If that didn't happened, then the admin suggested taking it to WP:ANI. We decided instead to request Page Protection, as it can be hard to block an IP editor. If that failed, then we would go to WP:ANI. Keepitreal2 was only mention when Ecjmartin noticed that the edit summaries for the IP editor and Keepitreal2 were exactly the same and that was after Page Protection was applied, and only in the last response.

If asking an IP editor to talk about his edits or answering a request for information on WP policy is a "consistent pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits", then I guess I'm guilty. However, so is every editor are most follow Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and ask for information from others. Again I find it funny that I'm guilty of "anti Mormon edits" when I only ever edited Missouri Executive Order 44 ONCE, but I'm also a "Mormon apologists" pushing a Pro-Mormon Agenda on other pages at the same time.--- ARTEST4ECHO 19:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

It is wrong-headed to characterize ARTEST4ECHO's edit's as anti-Mormon. In the time I've been editing WP with this account, as well as during my earlier editing as an IP, I have never seen a single edit from him that could be properly described that way. Instead he has made significant, useful, generally even-handed contributions to the text of literally hundreds (if not thousands) of articles related to the LDS Church, and the Latter Day Saints movement as a whole. Additionally, you may not realise this, but ARTEST4ECHO is personally responsible for finding and adding as much as perhaps 75% of all of the photos used on biography article of the leaders of the LDS Church here on Misplaced Pages, and a significant percentage of the images for Latter Day Saints movement topics as a whole.

It normally doesn't matter why any editor develops an interest in editing any article, as long as the edits themselves conform with the expectations and norms of the Misplaced Pages community. Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service which is here to build an encyclopedia by working together to come to a consensus on what should be included on the articles. In any community, disputes will arise, and there are methods of formally resolving user conduct disputes, but those are rarely needed when everyone remains calm, and the focus remains on the the edits (ie content and context) and not the editors. Even incivility is tolerated to a degree, so long as it is not disruptive.

I personally find Keepitreal2's actions moderately disruptive, that editor's accusations rash and groundless, and that editor's unwillingness to truly dialog (which is different in attitude and approach than taking pot-shots at people one disagrees with) as unproductive. I have no opinion if that editor deserve any formal sanctions. However if Keepitreal2 is in fact Mormon, they need to learn what was described at Talk:Temple garment/Archive 8#This Article Is Completely Inappropriate, with a particular focus on the 5 enumerated points that start with quotes from M. Russell Ballard. To borrow a quote from someone else: "we can disagree without being disagreeable". * 21:24, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't intentionally exclude Ecjmartin above - merely an unfortunate oversight on my part. Ecjmartin also doesn't deserve the anti-Mormon epithet, nor should his efforts be disparaged. * 21:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In the spirit of you requesting dialog, I will counter your assertions with four simple concepts:

1. Although after being repeatedly advised it is misogynistic to assume I am male and refer to me as such, Artest4echo is still refering to me as "his" even in these resposes here. Clearly he has an issue and my assertion in the matter continues to be validated.

2. Having contributed such a large portion has given him a God complex and he feels he is the absolute authority. One could argue a person with that much contribution makes the subject lopsided or skewed to said persons opinion.

3. Not one acknowledgement or discussion of my concerns here have been addressed.

4. Skewing an article to slander a group of people which takes away the extreme injustice done to them does make someone "anti". It doesn't have to be done overtly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

@Keepitreal2: Thank you for taking the time to respond here. I have responded in kind at User talk:Keepitreal2, where we can more easily continue this dialog. * 15:31, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The only time I used the word "His" on this ENTIRE page was when I said "If asking an IP editor to talk about his edits or answering a request for information on WP policy is a "consistent pattern of teaming / awarding artest4echo on anti Mormon edits", then I guess I'm guilty." I was referring to IP editors in general, and proper English uses Male titles unless specified. Additionally, when referring to Keepitreal2 specifically, once she said she was a female, I never used the word "Him", "He" or "His".--- ARTEST4ECHO 16:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I attempted dialog with Keepitreal2 on that editor's talk page, as it appeared above that the editor was willing to do so. Based on this most recent exchange, as well as those with others, Keepitreal2 appears to display an unacceptable level of I can't hear you, TRUTH!, I'm right and you are wrong, and temper tantrum behaviors. Additionally, based on Keepitreal2's interactions with others, the editor generally appears to be unwilling or unable to maintain a minimal level of civility and Wikiquette, particularly by displaying an unacceptable degree of Carthago delenda est about those who are perceived as not agreeing with that editor. Because of this, I formally add my voice to those requesting intervention: a short block of Keepitreal2 seems to be in order, and perhaps a ban from the Missouri Executive Order 44 article itself (but not the talk page) for a month following the block. Hopefully after that action Keepitreal2 will better demonstrate that they are here to build an encyclopedia. * 17:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet another example of abuse. They were very aware I was not an IP editor but rather jumped on the fact I was not logged in due to clearing my cache. Abusing this tactic to get their way. As you can view on ARTEST4ECHO talk page history, It was made very clear to him. Also note Ejcmartins acknowledged reference of knowing it was me prior to subitting their false accusations. Also note on my talk page I informed him I was going to report him, so he then turned around and repoted me. Keep digging yourself deeper if you like. Keepitreal2 (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Since this has clearly become a case of Misplaced Pages:Don't fight fire with fire and Misplaced Pages:Do not feed the trolls, I will just leave it to the administrators and other editor on this board to read my talk page, Keepitreal2 comments, History:Missouri Executive Order 44 (including Pre-"clearing my cache IP edits" on the 5th and 6th of December) and Talk:Missouri Executive Order 44:Recent edits. Then administrator can decided what to do.--- ARTEST4ECHO 20:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

We agree on something. Thank you for pointing out not fighting fire with fire. I'm confident the administration will look at the timestamp of me informing you I was going to report you and the timestamp you reported me. As well as the edits/deletions to your userpage and talkpage. Good day sir. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I am just returning home from work, and so am just now able to reply. Other than saying 'thank you' to Asterik and Artist, I simply wish to refer all disinterested parties to the talk page for this article. I have been repeatedly accused of ignoring an "inconvenient truth," of making "false accusations," of promoting an "anti-Mormon agenda," and now of displaying a "mob mentality." Yet when I invited my accuser to come to the talk page and discuss her concerns there, she refused--not once, but repeatedly. I do not intend to answer these baseless accusations any further, save to refer disinterested parties to the relevant pages, where they may compare my entries with hers and judge for themselves. I do not claim to be 100% 'in the right' here, and if I am judged by a consensus of disinterested WP editors/administrators to be in any way in the wrong, I am prepared to offer an apology and amend my future conduct. I am not asking here for any specific sanctions against anyone; I simply wish to concur in and support Artist's efforts to end this fruitless 'edit war' and make this article the best possible article it can be.

My original offer still stands, Keepitreal: come over to the article talk page, and let's discuss your concerns in a friendly manner. I'm still willing--and I think I can speak for the other editors involved in this dispute as well--to consider your concerns and work together with you to find some middle-of-the-road solution to this dilemma. How 'bout it?? - Ecjmartin (talk) 22:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Just came from the article talk page. So much for that idea... I defer to WP's 'powers that be.' - Ecjmartin (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

To update thing. Despite and after this ANI was created, Missouri Executive Order 44 she changed the page twice (again) ( and ) without discussion.

Then when Keepitreal2 was warn by an admin here for her behavior, she simply said "Thank you for the information as I did not kno who to turn to. These folks have a history of such behavior." Refusing to even acknowledge that the warning was directed to her, not me or Ecjmartin.

However, and finally, she did finally comment on the talk page. Unfortunately, it was only to state that "I'm not sure why you guys think your Opinion matters.", "You are trying to rewrite history...", "Your arrogance is beyond unacceptable" and "Believe you me, this will be resolved".

She is still in no way was willing to discuss the WP:POV and WP:Scope issues, or anything other then her getting her way. Her edits are clearly Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing.

It's clear that she has no intention of listen to any suggestions or warnings. She insisted that she is not going to stop, which is Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles, what she accuses me of despite the fact that I have only reverted her edit. I haven't edited the pages since March 2011‎.

While I defer to admins to do what should be done, I do feel that something, like a block, page or topic ban, need to happen, or this behavior is just going to continue and we will be right back hear in a few weeks. I would even be willing to not edit the page for 2 or 3 months, if she would be willing to do so also.--- ARTEST4ECHO 16:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Lmao this is tiresome. It takes two or three or how many ever to hav an 'edit war' war is not an individual sport ejcmartin started it and is very much a part of it as are you. I hav never refused to adress anything... the only thing i have no intrest in is hashing and rehashing ridiculous circles a.la this ish. Some people havw lives. I am on a mobile and no where near my computer. At some point if you have anything original to ask/say perhaps we can make progress. Keepitreal2 (talk) 05:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Her comments are increasingly aggressive. I am hoping for some sort of admin intervention that might help cool the overall situation.

This morning I said "This drama is the most exciting thing that's happened to me all week." While it's true that this has been "drama," that was not a constructive word choice and I regret it. It's true this has been exciting for me- in a bad way. It's the agitated sort of excited. BUT. I know that my intent with the word "excited" was probably not clear to her or any other reader and I should have communicated better. On the other hand, she recently said "This is so comical I don't even know where to start" to an editor who was calmly making well-reasoned points.

I said a source she provided (the pertinent portion of which is written in the third person and does not present itself as a primary source) is the best source of the three we have for that subtopic. I said nothing negative and neither did anyone else. She then commented elsewhere on the talk page "yall saying a mother's firsthand account of her experience with this order is questionable" (referring to us questioning the source she posted, which no one had done). She then said I'm "not in the right state of mind." Pot meet kettle?

She repeatedly said she has more authority on this topic than peer-reviewed authors because four of her great-grandparents were prominent Mormons so she grew up with the stories. (Semi-prominent is generous in this case, but whatever.) She's been told that her family background doesn't change anything here on WP, but she insists it ought to. I think she must be aware that most peer-reviewed Mormon history articles are written by descendants of the early Mormons, but she wants to be the authority. She's also casually assumed that the other editors and I do not have Mormon ancestry. (For comparison, look what happened when someone used a male gender pronoun in a hypothetical that wasn't even about her specifically. Their "assumption" was highly offensive to her and she brought it up repeatedly.) From what I've seen, MOST editors of the Mormon history articles have Mormon ancestry. My "Mormon credentials" are stronger than hers, but I don't go around talking about my ancestors as though it means I should get my way.

She's said that any ex-mormon editing pages on Mormonism must have an axe to grind and, basically, they should not be allowed on pages that no longer concern them. That comment was directed at one of the other two contributors to this article, and I felt it was extremely rude/insulting.

Even her comments about how she should take a break and let an administrator handle things are worded aggressively. (And the break hasn't been taken.) Two recent examples: "Do you need a little time for it to dawn on you?" and "Now go ahead and remove your slanderous contributions as promised please and thank you." (I was unable to guess what contributions she meant nor did I see any discussion of removing something from the article, so I asked. She never replied).

Today she posted a massive block quote of copyrighted material. The relevant portion is perhaps 1/5 of a page long at the very beginning. There was another question raised on the talk page which is answered in the middle of the quote, but that question was already determined to be outside the scope of the article by the time she posted. I think the publisher would be less than thrilled. An editor expressed concern but said he didn't want to offend her by changing anything, and she has completely ignored his comment.

Her strong emotions against other editors extend through the whole range of Mormon topics, and I wonder how much further they extend than that. This isn't the place for emotional baggage to get aired out. This is an encyclopedia. Tripleahg (talk) 12:12, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you even hear yourself when you write this ish? Somebody questioned my credibility, I responded by divulging information about my background to defend ugly attacks against me. Am I allowed to breathe? I'm confused by this ish as I'm sure the admins can read timestamps and see that the last thing I said last night was I will let them handle it. Again, false accusations. At least that's easy to prove. On the other hand, your my ancestors are more prominent than hers is downright childish. Your definition of prominence must rely on post Missouri 44 and assassination of Joseph Smith when Brigham Young did his thing because saying Joseph Kinght and Isaac Morley were Semi-Prominent shows your lack of knowledge about church history and only goes to validate the position you say I have taken. Unless of course you don't consider material supporting the translation of the book of mormon important. Hell the plates were picked up in my grand fathers wagon. The only person more prominent in the church than Joseph Knight, Sr. was Joseph Smith and he is a cousin of mine so your point falls beyond flat. And if you want to take it in that silly direction... lets use Joseph Smiths words concerning my great grand father Joseph Knight, since they hold more weight than yours " was among the number of the first to administer to my necessities. … For fifteen years he has been faithful and true, and even-handed and exemplary, and virtuous and kind, never deviating from the right hand or to the left. Behold, he is a righteous man, may God Almighty lengthen out the old man’s days; and may his trembling, tortured, and broken body be renewed, … and it shall be said of him, by the sons of Zion, while there is one of them remaining, that this man was a faithful man in Israel." But ya lets let you tell it... #smdh Anywho I don't have patience for your drama. As for the copyright claim, that book is not the only or even 1st published first hand account of hers. She owned her copyright as the writer and she has been dead over 100 years which means it's now public domain. Nice you know your copyright laws. This is why I loose patience with yall and might come across as sarcastic. Lastly, if I am adressing something somebody has said or responding to something somebody has asked me, making it about you doesn't infact mean it actually was about you. But since you mention your ancestors are prominent, shame on you for not standing up against the slanderous way this article was written stating nobody was known to have died as a result of this Order. Joseph Knight Sr. died as a result of it and I will not sit idly by while his and others suffering or deaths are discounted. If that constitutes emotional baggage, so be it. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepitreal2 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

And btw yes her account was questioned by ejcmartin and even deemed as failing validation by artest4echo. Humorous is an accurate label. Cheers Keepitreal2 (talk) 16:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The Weight of Chains

UrbanVillager (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Pincrete (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
bobrayner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is an ongoing POV war on the topic of Boris Malagurski and his films. The three editors above are absolutely incapable of working with each other without perpetuating a three-way revert war - see the histories and talk pages of Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and The Weight of Chains 2 for examples of the disruption left in the wake of any meeting of these three. I foolishly attempted to moderate this in the past (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive863#Topic ban for UrbanVillager) and administrator Ricky81682 has also been involved in the past, having blocked at least one of the users. At the latest asking the other parent deletion review thread, all three started in with sniping at each other (, ) and at other editors who participated (), comments which I took the liberty of refactoring, however they insist (, ) that this petty back-and-forth must remain for the benefit of the discussion, or something. Their behaviour is clearly seen by other users as disruptive (e.g. ) and has become a net negative for users who wish to edit these articles and for the community in general. Therefore: I propose a three-way interaction ban between all three of these users, and further propose that all three be topic-banned from Malagurski-related topics. Ivanvector (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait, what? Over at the deletion review that UrbanVillager started, I had the temerity to suggest - briefly and civilly, with a diff - that UrbanVillager had canvassed supporters. You removed that comment. I suggested that removing evidence of canvassing would be unlikely to help the closer reach the best decision, then you removed that comment, and now you frame that as "petty back-and-forth"? We certainly have a lot of trouble with these topics, but I really don't think that is the best way forward.

For what it's worth, I'd happily stop editing the topic right this moment if we could be assured that the problem went away. However, a topic ban would be a unilateral and hence ineffective sanction because, well, I'd comply but another sockpuppet would appear soon enough - there's a long history of promotional sockpuppetry here. Stopping previous sockpuppets stopped the problem temporarily. bobrayner (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Note, here also RealButter is canvassed, to which he replies here: (though to date RealButter has taken no part in the deletion review, and in my dealings with him I have no reason to doubt his good faith). Pincrete (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Why exactly am I mentioned here? Why is a civil post from me drawing attention of ALL editors (inc. Ivanvector) to the 'discretionary sanctions' issue,(here, para 3):). Why is this post removed by Ivanvector AT ALL. Where on the deletion review have I "sniped" and since I have not interacted there with either Bobrayner, UrbanVillager, nor anyone how can I have "back and forthed" (I DID address a single post to Ivanvector, but I think I did so in a civil and constructive manner, again para 3:).

Ivanvector, I invite you to reconsider whether you still feel I have said ANYTHING uncivil to ANYONE or done anything unconstructive in the interactions you cite above.

I endorse most of what Bobrayner says above, specifically that a topic ban on he or I would solve nothing.Pincrete (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Of the three, I'm the only one who ever constructively edited Malagurski-related articles, the other two just dispute everything, remove sourced content and attempt to minimize everything that has to do with Malagurski and his work. Bobrayner is frequently canvassed by Pincrete, and the two work in sync to undermine every constructive edit to Malagurski-related articles. Look at the edit history of the articles, all they do is revert every attempt to make the articles neutral and remove anything positive or neutral added about Malagurski (while I've agreed to add negative reviews time and time again). They've already admitted that they despise Malagurski and his work - how can I edit constructively with people whose only goal in regards to those articles are to present Malagurski and his work in the worst possible way, when my goal is to make the articles more informative about the topic that sincerely interests me? I'd like to edit with neutral editors, but the topic area doesn't seem to attract such editors because Malagurski's work is controversial. Both Pincrete and Bobrayner have spent far more time arguing that I should be banned than making Malagurski-related articles better. So, if anyone should be topic banned, it's Pincrete and Bobrayner. If you're going to ban the one person who has expanded Malagurski-related articles to such an extent that these articles have more reliable sources than the majority of film-related articles, ban me as well. --UrbanVillager (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm just here to say I'm out. This topic falls under the Eastern Europe Arbcom heading (controversial as hell) and that hasn't been enforced so this is not too unexpected. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be WP:ARBMAC by the way? The initial topic was Macedonia but the conclusions were defined for the whole Balkan region.- Anonimski (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

You're correct. Also, I have not blocked any user. I screwed up on my request for a topic ban against UrbanVillager and have since then disengaged from the entire issue. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I've only observed the conflict between these users after finding The Weight of Chains 2 article, and I couldn't understand why the article needed to be deleted and baked into The Weight of Chains 1, after UrbanVillager had sourced it properly and with material that suggests notability. Anyway, what I've noticed is that Bobrayner has had a tendency to be overly dismissive in topics that relate to Serbia, broadly defined. For example, the unnecessary accusation at Talk:North Mitrovica (11 May 2014), and the way I've been approached at Talk:Goraždevac when I actually had done wikilinkage to a sourced article. I'm not sure if this dismissive attitude that I've encountered is limited to the Balkan region, look for example at the Stealing a Nation edit history and see the blanking there. As for UrbanVillager and Pincrete, I don't know if I can contribute with any info, I haven't had any significant interactions with them so I can't see if there's some sort of trend in their editing.

As for discretionary sanctions, I think it's generally better to just send warnings and constructive criticism in the cases where it may apply here, than to ban for N days and think that everything will be fine afterwards. However, I have no experience with what admins commonly do in these disputes so I don't know what to propose. - Anonimski (talk) 01:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment, I think some clarification is in order, because everybody (inc. me perhaps) is getting 'deletes', 'redirects', and 're-instates' muddled. The current position is that there should be a redirect, Urbanvillager, was advised to seek a consensus for overturning that decision. Bobrayner and I have argued in favour of upholding the 're-direct' decision (not deleting). Our argument has been that notability has not been established sufficient to justify a second article and the little sourced info there is could adequately be merged with the main article. I remind Anonimski, that notability is established by independent RS having written about the subject, and at the moment the only sources regarding content/claims are interviews with the film maker. Interviews made (I believe) before the film was released. That the film has been seen by about 10 audiences worldwide (and is to be shown in Subotica & Belgrade shortly) is also RS, but none of these showings has so far resulted in articles or reviews. Pincrete (talk) 10:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of whether it's a deletion or a redirect, there's also the fact that there are a lot of notable people who appear in the film, as well as its status as a sequel to The Weight of Chains 1, which has notability. All this combined contributes to the notability status of The Weight of Chains 2. Furthermore, I searched around a bit, and though I haven't found any reviews yet, there are definitively articles about the second movie. Links: example 1, example 2. - Anonimski (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Anonimski, precisely, but when you're discussing this topic area with editors whose purpose is not to sincerely do what they can to make the articles better, it's hard to edit. Pincrete and Bobrayners only purpose in regards to Malagurski-related articles is to remove sourced content, minimize notability in any way and, if deletion and removal of content is not possible, present Malagurski and his work in the worst possible way. In my personal life, I've been able to work with people who disagree with me on almost everything, but only when our goal was the same - to do the job right. If this was the case here, I would have no troubles working with Pincrete and Bobrayner and we could work together on building consensus. However, considering they dispute everything and are not here to make the articles better, but to make Malagurski look bad and insignificant, I'm afraid I don't see any other resolutions to the issue other than a topic ban for Pincrete and Bobrayner for Malagurski-related articles. --UrbanVillager (talk) 14:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Anonimski, notability isn't established by either who is in the film, nor by the previous film, I think guidelines are fairly explicit on both those points. I don't dispute that the film has been shown in (now) about 10-12 screenings, which is all that the sources (inc. your new ones) confirm. Content is solely sourced to interviews with BM, which therefore need careful editing, since anyone with a product to sell is likely to promote it as much as possible. I don't want to extend the 're-instate/redirect' argument onto this page, you have expressed your opinion there and I have expressed mine. The re-instate backers seem to be the majority and that will probably happen. I just wish to make it clear that I, and others have been arguing from a valid stand-point, which is supported by guidelines (and on my part done civilly I hope).Pincrete (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Pincrete: My primary concern regarding your conduct is the revert warring wherever the three of you edit. From the policy, since I don't think you've read it: Edit warring is unconstructive and creates animosity between editors, making it harder to reach a consensus. The forumspamming between the three of you is a textbook example of what happens when editors simply undo each other repeatedly rather than attempting to have a constructive discussion. Of the last 50 edits (as of this edit) at The Weight of Chains 2 (which happen to be the 50 since UrbanVillager restored the article) 14 are obvious undo-button reverts: by bobrayner: by UrbanVillager: and by you: . You are all very careful to stay under WP:3RR but this behaviour is disruptive anyway, and it's not one of you instigating, it is all three of you put together. And yes, it's uncivil. I could propose WP:1RR or temporary full protection instead, but this just moves the problem onto the talk page, where you and UV post walls of text and WP:BLUDGEON any user who tries to insert a comment (e.g. ), and bobrayner throws snide comments around like candy (e.g. ), which seems to be his modus operandi in general. The only way forward for these articles is for all three of you to be removed. Ivanvector (talk) 16:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion I'm sorry Ivanvector, but your argument seems to be "I don't know who is to blame but at least one of the three MUST be, so let's ban everyone". Since any incoming uninvolved editor is likely to start to forget who the various parties are and who is accused of doing what, can I suggest sub-headings in which the behaviour and actions of each of us three are examined/commented upon. I make this suggestion because I don't see how I can defend myself in a 'group' action in which I am supposedly accountable for the actions of all three.

I am happy to respond regarding my own actions in your list above, should you wish. In one case I misunderstood the situation and was wrong, in some cases I would defend my actions as conciliatory or otherwise constructive, some baffle me as to why they are there or who you think is at fault. Pincrete (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I thought I was pretty clear that it's the three of you who are at fault. Not any one of you, all three together. There would be no point in breaking this up into subsections. I wish to address POV warring and the edit warring for which all three of you are responsible. Other editors have tried to get involved (notably, RealButter, Shawn in Montreal, FkpCascais, Jsharpminor, Stifle, Ricky who has already commented above, Anonimski who has participated recently, myself, and a whole list of editors who got involved at the previous AN/I and who no longer edit in this topic area because of the nonsense) but it's just all three of you (not any one but all three) who revert-war, plaster talk pages with endless pointless arguments (much of it WP:GREENCHEESE) and drive other editors away from the topic. You've got a long way to go to convince me that any one of the three of you is solely responsible, or that any one of the three of you can behave when the others are around, thus the only solution is that all three of you should stay away from each other. Ivanvector (talk) 00:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, is the goal here to find the best solution for Malagurski-related articles on Misplaced Pages or to just get rid of everyone editing them? Because if the articles' fate was left solely upon Pincrete's and Bobrayner's decision, the articles would either be deleted or made to present Malagurski as a demon. On the other hand, I've done nothing but expanded these articles, brought notable sources and helped make them more neutral. To the anti-Malagurski editor, any neutrality is perceived as promoting Malagurski and his work (which I've been accused of, even of being Malagurski himself), when all I've wanted was to edit the topic area which interests me most. If you ban me on Malagurski-related articles, it's an effective block on Misplaced Pages for me, because this is where I'd like to contribute (check my edit history) - I follow Malagurski's work closely and feel I can contribute most in that area. On the other hand, Pincrete and Bobrayner edit other articles as well and their banning would be a much less harsh punishment. I've asked many administrators to explain to me what exactly am I doing wrong, how I can improve my relations with other editors, none have helped me with any advice other than to "try to build consensus", and I've tried. Sure, I've lost my temper a few times, but in the end I'm the one who brings quality material to these articles. A prerequisite for collaboration and consensus is that other editors also want to make the articles better, not delete sourced content and minimize everything to make Malagurski look bad. Look at the edit history - do Pincrete and Bobrayner really, sincerely, care for Malagurski-related articles and want to make them better? Do I? Or do the two of them use every opportunity to dispute everything and vent their frustration with Malagurski and his work at anyone trying to help inform the Misplaced Pages audience about Malagurski and his work? In my opinion, the solution is not to "Kill them all, God will know His own" (Massacre at Béziers) but to distinguish who is doing good work and who is sabotaging the work. Again, don't take my word for it - if you have time, check the edit history of these articles, the answer is there. --UrbanVillager (talk) 10:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, thankyou for naming those editors, I hope as many as possible will respond here and confirm or disagree as to whether I am ordinarily, 'uncivil', 'bludgeoning' or unconstructive. If a reasonable number confirm, I will voluntarily ban myself. I hope you don't object but I am adding Somedifferentstuff's name as he is the only editor to have been involved in the last 6 months, who has not already been named.Pincrete (talk) 11:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, I feel as if there is a bit of mud slinging going on in this thread... Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 15:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Alright, this is clearly going nowhere, Happy Attack Dog has a point, and keeping this open is doing nothing to improve the encyclopedia. Consider me to have inserted the standard rant about admins failing to act on discretionary sanctions, and then everyone can go back to standard editing behaviour. I'm not intending to reply in this thread any more and keeping AN/I on my watchlist is bad for my blood pressure, so please ping me if my attention is needed, or rant on my talk page. Ivanvector (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou Ivanvector. If anything needs MY attention, would someone please ping me. Pincrete (talk) 17:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

BLP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It was suggested that editors might like to improve Iris purdyi as a tribute to retired User:Neelix who was one of our most active contributors. I reverted an inappropriate addition by an apparently legitimate account which has not been used for over a year, and reverted its re-addition a few minutes ago by an IP.

It might be worth some more folk adding it to their watch-lists, and possibly other action of an adminy nature.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC).

Template:Cue Other editors, please also see this ANI thread for context on why Neelix retired; this may be why the vandalism on the Iris purdyi page may be happening. Epic Genius (talk) 01:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I suspect Lvckv (talk · contribs) is compromised, as not only is the edit made to Iris purdyi the only one made in the last 16 months, but it's not even in the same topic area as usual (all prior edits have been about footballers). —Jeremy v^_^v 03:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

As I said, an apparently legitimate account.... All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:17, 29 January 2015 (UTC).

If it's compromised, it needs blocked. —Jeremy v^_^v 23:46, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Unexplained Removal of sourced content and edit warring

A user by the name of NikeCage68 is edit warring and removing sourced content on an article Weegeerunner (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• I've seen this come through AIV, and I'm going to give my two cents here. Firstly, Weegeerunner's assessment of the situation looks accurate; NikeCage68 has, frequently, removed content without giving an explanation. This user's major problem is the lack of edit summary usage; the amount of manually filled-out edit summaries in the last 500 edits or so is probably a dozen at most. However... no one has actually attempted to discuss this on a talk page, as far as I can see. Indeed, the talk page for that article hasn't even been created yet, and this should've been attempted before any ANI thread was opened. I personally think the article should be fully protected, and discussion moved to talk. Then again, I don't think the articles should exist at all, and that's why I AfDed them. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

The edit warring continues, we need admin intervention. Weegeerunner (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Easiest solution: go to RFPP and request temporary full protection due to the edit war (unless an admin sees this and protects it for you). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Done. I am also feeling Nick is showing behavior that can be seen as ownership. Weegeerunner (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The articles have been protected by User:CambridgeBayWeather. This is unfortunate because they are at AfD. Nick has blanked messages on his talk page relating to this dispute. Having said that Nick has apologised at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of 2015–16 Aviva Premiership transfers First of all what I did with the deletion of several citations on those transfers pages without giving valid reasons. My reasons were just really stupid and naive. I really and sincerely apologise for that.

Given this I think that there is hope that the pages can be unprotected to allow them to be worked on while the AfD is running its course.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC).

I saw the note on my talk page last night from User:Rich Farmbrough. Unfortunately I was on the mobile and couldn't make the changes. I've just unprotected the pair of them. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Mr illuminaty messing with my userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Mr illuminaty Has messed with my userpage because I reverted him and left a warn on his talk. And now User:AnomieBOT Has posted a troll block there. Pls help quick. Clubjustin3 (talk) 05:23, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Clubjustin4: You can make a report at WP:AIV for User:Mr illuminaty. As for User:AnomieBOT, that is a bot that substs templates that aren't already substed but need to be, like {{troll}}. Epic Genius (talk) 13:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ashurbanippal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ashurbanippal (talk · contribs) is currently edit warring on several articles. He has been warned by another user . He is copy pasting others edit comments instead of writing anything relevant. Here he is referring to the same WP-pages he was told to read in warning above. He keeps reverting on Arameans in Israel without any relevant input on talk page, and from what I've understood the same story goes for the other articles where he is edit warring. In all cases he is argument is "not to remove sourced material" which he clearly has not read himself. Shmayo (talk) 09:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Instead of making personal attacks against me, you should gain consensus on this talk page before making controversial changes or open incident reports, because that's edit-warring and stalking. I did answer you on the talk page. And if you don't know nothing about the other discussions I'm involved in (where you don't participate), don't give uninformed opinions trying to undermine me. It's quite pathetic.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 10:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ashurbanippal has now been blocked for 60 hours for edit-warring on Arameans in Israel. Looking at their contribs they've been edit-warring on several Israel related articles, inluding the one in respect of the 3RR warning I gave them linked to by the OP (on Six-day War. It is to be hoped they come off their block with a different attitude. DeCausa (talk) 11:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

MusikAnimal admin abuse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MusikAnimal ] is abusing his admin privileges and I would like his work reviewed and his admin rights taken away due to his Misplaced Pages vandalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=First_video_game&action=history

There is no cited material or facts related to what has been posted about.

"In May of 1967, the world's first videogames -- as we know them today -- made their quiet, humble entrance into the world. "

According to WIKI,

http://en.wikipedia.org/History_of_video_games

"Due to the haphazard nature of early computer game creation and the lack of concern for preservation at the time, it will likely be impossible to pinpoint the first video game ever created."

This was an obvious fact well before 1967. They were invented more than a decade before Baer.

Please stop reposting incorrect information on wiki and abusing admin powers by denial of truth and facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.251.18 (talk) 13:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal: protected the page because you were edit-warring. Instead of repeatedly reverting the same material, you need to go to Talk:First video game and explain why you think changes are required. Pretty much any administrator would have done exactly the same thing. You are not banned or thrown off Misplaced Pages, but you now need to justify your point of view and gain a consensus. The best way by far to resolve this debate is, rather than argue about dead links (which, per WP:DEADREF, are still acceptable provided we can find a log on the Wayback Machine), it to supply better sources such as books or newspapers, which are set in stone and never go "dead". On a related note, I saw you removed unsourced content on History of video games, which despite the message given on reverting, is not vandalism and an acceptable good-faith edit. I do it too (though I make a point of rewriting and re-sourcing the material too). In short, calm down and use the talk page to explain the factual problems in the article. Ritchie333 15:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I don't think it can be explained better than how Ritchie333 put it, but I'll elaborate on my part. Looking at the page history, it's clear that you have multiple IPs blanking material, then confirmed accounts restoring it – over and over. So as an admin, semi-protection seems like the easiest way to calm things down. In other words, it's not that I'm siding with the registered users, it's about preventing disruption. In a content dispute, we generally fully-protect to force discussion, but why do that when semi does the same job? We want to minimize the number of users we shut out. That's my justification. I have no opinion whatsoever in the debate.I also wanted to second Ritchie's thought on blanking unsourced material. I generally consider that okay... but if another user wants to restore it a discussion needs to take place as to why it should be retained. Verifiability is a must. Best — MusikAnimal 16:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Note

FYI, MusikAnimal and anyone else who cares to know, I ended up blocking the IP because they kept on giving out personal attacks to various editors, which eventually got extremely offensive. If anyone other IPs appear to continue this streak, they should probably be blocked for block evasion. Sergecross73 msg me 20:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Fyi: The editor returned as 104.229.37.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Blocked for exhibiting the same behavior that led to the first block. Excirial 21:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Continued personal attacks by User:Cassianto

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Today Cassianto has put more fuel on the fire by making yet another personal attack against User:OrangesRyellow: "It pains me to have to speak to you as I find you repulsive". Rationalobserver (talk) 16:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, Cassianto has retired from Misplaced Pages. GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

They "retired" several days ago, but that hasn't stopped them from continuing to personally attack people. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Sigh.... Could a passing admin close this please – or also take strong action against OrangesRyellow for editing the talk page comments of another user, which is what sparked this off. – SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

:::(edit conflict) And perhaps against Rationalobserver for doing the same thing? EChastain (talk) 16:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Close, please Could that passing admin remind the user starting the thread that this isn't the National Enquirer and that we're meant to be editing an encyclopedia here? We hope (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

All of Cassianto's PA's since retiring seem to be related to the original incident which was dying down (see closed threads above). In the name of Misplaced Pages:Don't feed the divas and also Misplaced Pages:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, could someone please close this. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:39, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd wager that Cassianto will be back, so I don't see how slapping a retired tag on his page lets him make a few parting jabs that are obviously personal attacks without any fear of consequences, but I guess consensus trumps common sense here. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Fucking lame, there is no personal attacks, the problem is the refactoring of another user's comment. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• This talk page edit is not acceptable--it's already not acceptable since WP:TPO does not allow it, and the attendant commentary by OrangesRyellow, that "fucking victim" means "victim of fucking" is too silly to warrant an explanation, though if one is needed Giano kindly provided one. In the meantime, another contributor has fled the coop; Rationalobserver, your continued baiting and bad-faith commentary will boomerang on you. And now I'm going to close this since I doubt that anyone is going to block someone with 12 FAs and 9 FLs for saying "I find you repulsive" to someone who was guilty of a terrible misreading that smacks, and not mildly, of false consciousness--either that, or it is evidence of complete incompetence. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

"Retired"?

If someone posts a "retired" banner on their user page and has clearly not retired, is there a rule being violated? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Not that I know of. See also this discussion for example. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The editor should change his banner from "retired" (which is clearly a falsehood) to "semi-retired" (which is undefinable, i.e. very flexible). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Nothing actionable here. The continuation of this matter is becoming increasingly disruptive. - SchroCat (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, this guy Cassiano and his buddy Schorcat and the other members of their little clique think they are better than the rest of us - that they can get away with any amount of incivility, any amount of vulgarity, because they are such "valued contributors". And when someone stands up to them, they cop this "How dare you?" attitude. So, can this particular incident die? Maybe. But next time someone stands up to them, watch what happens. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Bugs, I feel the same way you about the cliques do but I feel that this can be addressed on other venues, for this case the discussion has been had and people just want to move on from it onto other things. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Bingo. Close it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not part of any "clique" at all. I do not throw around incivility (when used its normally in relativisation, or because I am at the end of my tether with something or someone pushing a situation beyond what is reasonable). Your continual pushing of this situation each and everytime threads are closed is pointless. What do you think constructive is going to come out of this? That the admins are going to say "Oh, Bugs has started a new sub-thread on top of a closed one, and gone to a personal attack: maybe he has a point that we need to take on board"? Or do you nick that you are going to exhaust everyone's patience and their dwindling reservoirs of good faith? Enough is enough, just close this bloody thread and step away from the dead horse. - SchroCat (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Bugs, I love you like a brother, but this is enough already.

  I have a request for the clique of valued contributors, and for the clique of non-valued contributors (you, whoever you are, are a member of the first group, of course: go do something else. Paramaribo needs help, and so does Anton de Kom University of Suriname. For realsies: this thread is closed, and it will not be reopened. If anyone wishes to contest the validity of a "retired" template, do it on WP:Village pump or wherever, but do not do it as an extension of this thread. If anyone wishes to take issue with Cassianto as an editor, they can do so...where...in a stone-chiseled RfC/U, for all I care. Basta: closed with administrative authoritay. Drmies (talk) 13:33, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Heads up on possible controversy

Molly White (Texas politician) made some... um... interesting comments today on Facebook. At least one response has linked to her article, so we should probably keep an eye on it for good measure. http://www.texastribune.org/2015/01/29/rep-staff-ask-muslim-visitors-pledge-allegiance/ --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Now that we're done slagging each other off, can we get a revdel on that edit summary with the phone number? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

done, thanks for bringing it up (by either me or SamWalton, we deleteconflicted?) Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:46, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Walter Gorlitz edit war

I am the principal editor on the article Kit Carson. User Walter Gorlitz repeatedly reverts material to his preference. I have asked him to take his concerns to the talk page for concensus. He ignores me. His archives reveal that he is in the habit of operating in this way. His reverts are inappropriate, expecially since the article was sent to GA noms a few days ago. Please help! SeeSpot Run (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Without commenting on the validity of your claims, edit-warring is dealt with at WP:AN3. DeCausa (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'll comment at the talk page but you're both at 3RR and have been (equally) blindly reverting claiming consensus where no such consensus seems to have been established. Suggesting Gorlitz has ignored calls to take his concerns to the talk page is plainly contrary to the evidence which is that he started a talk page thread and you've participated in it. Bringing this here to highlight your own edit-warring is a bad idea. St★lwart 23:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

SeeSpot Run seems to have created a new position: Principal Editor. I'm going to leave a message on his talkpage concerning ownership of articles and collaborative editing. Acroterion (talk) 01:15, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I also see he started up a WP:GAN on the article while there is on-going edit warring, and an active WP:RFC. Extremely poor judgement. SeeSpot Run, I think you need to slow down a bit and learn a bit more about how things are done here. You seem to be forcing things in rather incorrect ways. Sergecross73 msg me 21:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

As well, I noticed that SeeSpot Run has opened another GA review, even though the current one has not run its course! -- Orduin 21:32, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The Kid (1921 film)

User:Clibenfoart persists in adding two unbilled actors (out of 60), a woman (playing "Extra in Alley Scene") and her real-life baby ("The Kid as a Baby"), to the cast listing. This is the single movie appearance of both, and it is blatantly obvious, despite a denial, that there is a WP:COI issue: the woman is listed in IMDb as Louise Hathaway, but Clibenfoart calls her Loulou Hathaway and gives her maiden name. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't called her Loulou Hathaway, the edit with Loulou Hathaway was made by an IP: https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/158.222.192.13 - I'm from Germany and I swear that I have no relation to an American family named Hathaway. You should stop making weird speculations! --Clibenfoart (talk) 10:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Several times, you have reverted in such a way as to restore that "LouLou" reference, so it's reasonable to suppose that you approve of that edit, even if you're not its author. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, Clibenfoart's given up on Loulou, but still insists on keeping Silas. Unfortunately, the reference given talks about a Silas M. Hathaway and his World War II service without mentioning The Kid at all. P.S. Stop deleting the naming of the credited roles as displayed on screen. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

User:PabloOsvaldo17

Someone want to look at this blocked editor's recent talk page posts with delightful edit summaries and remove posting privileges? --NeilN 00:45, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the talk page comments, but this is serious. -- Orduin 00:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have done it. His block will expire tomorrow. Let's see what happens then. Regards. --Tito Dutta (talk) 00:54, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @Titodutta: Thank you. Perhaps you can drop them a note saying they'll be able to edit again soon and focusing on content matters rather than attacking other editors is pretty much a must? --NeilN 01:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have dropped a short note and watchlisted their talk page. Let's see how it goes. Hopefully they will make constructive edits from now, else it might be a WP:ROPE too. Thanks. --Tito Dutta (talk) 01:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• Yanks in the bayou? Strange. Drmies (talk) 02:14, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Harassment by ceiling fan vandal

I am being constantly harassed by the ceiling fan vandal. At the moment, his modus operandi seems to be to vandalize a specific article on Wikia , then to pester me about it on my talk page. The user has also created two impersonating accounts: and (of User:GB fan and User:Ian.thomson, respectively); I have informed Wikia about the state of affairs, but nothing has been done so far. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 06:29, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Email abuse@att.net , listing the IP addresses and what times they were active, and point out that he's stalking, impersonating, and harassing you, as well as disrupting Misplaced Pages services. I've written a form letter documenting his actions that's easily, with the intention of sending it every time he harasses me. It explicitly points out how he's violating AT&T's terms of use, if not the law. Could we get someone from the WMF to contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:45, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Just emailed AT&T. Every day I see him active, I will keep sending an increasingly longer form letter. And I repeat this because this is an important question: can we get someone from the WMF to contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm wondering if the WMF legal department isn't taking a lengthy vacation. Drmies (talk) 18:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• The WMF legal department, AFAAIA, has never managed to get an ISP to take action against any of their customers, even where such action is clearly illegal (i.e. Jarlaxle Artemis). I conclude from this that such action is very difficult or the WMF's legal department is incompetent (I know which I'd go for). Black Kite (talk) 19:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm more apt to side with the former. ISPs are very reluctant to disconnect paying customers. —Jeremy v^_^v 20:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Mike blocked his talk page to avoid further harrasment from the IP and as soon as he unblocks his talk page the IP is at it again, I'd suggest blocking the IP now but he seems to have stopped since yesterday--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 18:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• In the last thread where Beals was community-banned, a note was left asking to report any further disruption to m:SRG and #wikimedia-stewards. Should do those also.

In response to AT&T's failure to act on its users breaking their own Terms of Service and causing problems here, a radical idea would be to rangeblock their entire IP range in Beals' area, with a note here that informs affected users of the situation and advising them to email abuse@att.net to encourage a resolution. Leave the block in place until such time as AT&T provides assurances that they are dealing with this. It's absolutely ridiculous, but I would support it. Ivanvector (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I second the range block if the stewards can't do anything. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Block all editors on an ISP to encourage the ISP to enforce their terms of service? Go a step further - block all READERS as well - like was done to protest SOPA. Similar to what TV providers do when channels are "blacked out" - redirect them to programming that tells them that it's their ISP (or in this case the channel's) fault.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.13.25 (talk • contribs)

You're the one suggesting that we block all editors on an ISP. The suggestion was a range block "in Beals' area," We're capable of selective blocks that only target specific cities, or even portions of cities. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Back in the day, we used to call this the Usenet Death Penalty. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible compromised account?

Jaywubba1887 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaged in some very dubious editing over the last few days, basically blanking or deleting sections of an apparently random selection of articles using a mobile device with the edit summary of "Fixed grammar" each time. Another editor has raised the concern that the account has been compromised. Could someone please take a look at this? I'd recommend a preventative block until the account owner has explained what is going on. Prioryman (talk) 07:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

To editor Prioryman: Please notify users you bring up here; this is required. To do so, use {{subst:ANI-notice}} or {{subst:ANI-notice|thread=}} on their talk pages. I have notified Jaywubba1887 in this case for you. Anon124 (+2) (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 17:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• It looks like a blanking happens whenever they're editing a large section, same deal with the article blankings. I don't think this account is compromised, rather they might have an unstable data connection/phone running out of memory or something. — east718 | talk | 18:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Off wiki non-constructive editing related to the English Misplaced Pages

User:IvanOS has accused me on the Croatian Misplaced Pages that I have a sockpuppet here, which is not true without initiating checkuser request here. To "prove" their point they added following diffs: 1, 2 adding that the users who made the edits are the same person (me). They used those edits as the "evidence" that I have insulted the entire Croatian nation (!). What is less relevant, but worth mentioning is that surprisingly their reasoning was accepted by an admin there leading to my indef block there. VS6507 (talk) 11:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi VS6507, thanks for raising this but I'm not clear what action you'd like taken - the en-wiki admins don't have any control over actions taken on the Croatian Misplaced Pages, and your account is not blocked and has not been accused of sockpuppetry here. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Be glad you didn't get a warning for restoring the vandalism of the other account. For those unfamiliar with Ustaše, this is like opening Germans with "also known as nazis". I will be kind and assume good faith: Maybe you thought the IP had only reverted your own edit and that reverting the IP would only restore your own edit. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, PrimeHunter, I apologise because I didn't notice that bit about "also known as ustashi".

I let admins to decide what action needs to be taken as he speculated off wiki about sockpuppetry here instead of reporting it. I give my consent for a checkuser check if someone thinks that that account might be associated with me. Valid checkuser analysis would also be useful to prove hr wiki admins that IvanOS didn't tell the truth and that my account here is clean when it comes to sockpuppetry and other negative behaviours as well. VS6507 (talk) 14:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

VS6507 has had some problems with meatpuppetry (across different wikis) in the past - some editors here may recognise his previous accountname - so, if IvanOS suspects sockpuppetry, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. @IvanOS:, is there any more evidence? bobrayner (talk) 14:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Bobrayner: No, it isn't. --IvanOS 15:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Malik-Shah I

Qara xan keeps removing sourced information! it is really getting annoying now and i am surprised that no one have seen it yet. In the Malik-Shah I article, he keeps removing the Seljuq statesman Nizam al-Mulk out of mention during the campaign of the Seljuq ruler Alp Arslan in Caucasus in 1064, when the source I added clearly says that he took part in the campaign;

Alp Arslān was quick to resume his military activity. In Rabīʿ I, 456/February-March, 1064, he undertook a campaign in the northwest which resulted in significant gains at the expense of Byzantine Armenia; Neẓām-al-molk and the sultan’s son, Malekšāh, operated separately during part of the campaign, each taking a string of fortresses. They rejoined the sultan to take Sepīd Šahr and Ānī.

And when Qara xan runs out of words, he suddenly keeps accusing me of being uncivil (or ignores me and continues his reverting). I seriously don't know what to do anymore. I have created over 320 articles and expanded even many more, and tried to expand the Malik-Shah I article too, but sadly he is stopping my progress. By the way, I have notified him about this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

At best this is a content dispute as it doesnt appear to be vandalism. No eidts have been carried out in the alst week so this also is quite stale. Best option would be to take it to the talk page to discuss or seek dispute resolution. Amortias (T)(C) 18:24, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Amortias. That user HistoryofIran is a liar. Just take a look on Talk:Malik-Shah I. --Qara khan 19:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Take it to the talk page? I have already done that, and as i said, when Qara xan runs out of words, he suddenly keeps accusing me of being uncivil, or ignores me and continues his reverting. So I don't think that would work. A admin told me this would be the best place to fix this problem. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Actually, a lot of your comments can be taken as uncivil. For example:

if you randomly accuse me of vandalism (you probably don't even know its meaning)
— User:HistoryofIran

Take a look on Al-Mu'tadid FOR EXAMPLE (writing it with caps lock so you actually read the word properly).
— User:HistoryofIran

Or maybe because you speak a very broken and confusing form of English.
— User:HistoryofIran

I don't know the Misplaced Pages rules well? that is coming from you? don't make me laugh.
— User:HistoryofIran

didn't i already tell you that i had to convert it? is your English that bad? if so, then please leave the English Misplaced Pages, because you are making it hard for everyone here when you simply revert stuff and then don't understand a word of what others say.
— User:HistoryofIran

• I've bolded all the statements I consider offensive, and this is only from one of your discussions.... -- Orduin 20:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but how is it uncivil when I tell him his English makes it harder for himself and me to fix the problem? seriously, you should read some of the stuff he writes and how he responds. About the caps lock thing, there are actually many times where he doesn't really want to properly read what I write (which can be quite irritating when I am trying to solve a dispute and he does such things like that, like he didn't even care). Yes, he don't know the meaning of the word "vandalism", or else he wouldn't randomly accuse of me being one in order to avoid discussing with me. About the Misplaced Pages rules, there are actually many cases where he breaks the rules, yet tells me and other users to learn about them, which is quite irritating and I am not the only person he has done that to. I think the problem is that the way I write can be easily misunderstood. Of course, I never mean to be rude or something like that. If it is really that easily misunderstood-able, I will write in a different way. But even if wrote in a different way I would probably still randomly accused of being uncivil, as it is not the first time Qara xan have done that and I am not the only one he has done that to (here is a example ). Anyway, now with that problem hopefully fixed, can we get back to the main subject? --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

User_talk:Secret

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi I'm Secret and I'd like you to please courtsey blank my talkpage. SecretIzBack (talk) 20:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Secret. If that really is you! we have no way of knowing. Your best course of action is to please contact by email someone to whom you are already known. I suggest User:Guerillero, as they are the admin who protected the page from editing. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Per CU evidence, this isn't Secret, thus, I have blocked the account. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Ed Hubbard The Sniper has attempted to refactor this section has made what could be considerd a chilling effect and has made (then retracted) a threat to kill here a swift block would be appreciated. Amortias (T)(C) 23:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Done. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Off topic, but Amortias, I don't think WP:CHILL points where you wanted it to point. Just a heads up... ansh666 00:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

No, no it did not. But it does now. Amortias (T)(C) 00:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Qewr4231

For two years, Qewr4231 has been either adding content at International Christian Church designating the church as a cult, and its former leader Kip McKean as a cult leader, or has repeatedly shown up on various talk pages to comment about this topic. User tends to come by, drop a bunch of drama on the talk page, then disappear for two or more months. Most recently the user came by to drop a bunch of links on an article's talk page in a discussion that has been inactive for 2 months. Certain Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines have been explained to this user several times over the years, including WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, our reliable source guidelines etc., but user is reticent to accept any of that or simply cannot process it. User also engages in soapboxing on talk pages, for example here (which also includes a nonsensical personal attack), here and here, which is unrelated to Kip McKean, but still completely egregious. In April 2014 I had to redact copy/pasted (i.e. copyrighted) content the user added to a talk page, which resulted in an exchange that demonstrates confusion on the part of the user, and which also highlights the fact that he has previously been asked to stop soapboxing on talk pages. He has so far accused 3 editors of being pro-Kip McKean, including myself, TheRedPenOfDoom and JamieBrown2011. Since the user keeps disappearing, I don't see any efficient way to help him understand Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, but his actions are now disruptive. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Chaheel Riens (that's me) and Ghmyrtle being accused of both being the same user - sockpuppets.

There was a bit of an editing brouhaha over at Casual (subculture), and an IP editor seems to have now registered under the name of Richie bedfellows.

During the exchange he has accused GhMyrtle and myself of being the same editor twice in different edits.

I objected to this each time and gave him the chance to redact - his response is here, however, he invites me to not "be waiting around for the weekend to finish, my friend" - so I'm not. Both involved editors informed. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@Richie bedfellows: I have plenty of legitimate reasons for suspicion. Please do share these reasons, as accusations of sockpuppetry are serious, and not showing any kind of support behind them is concidered harassment, and can get you blocked. Don't be quick to assume that someone is a sockpuppet. Please take care. -- Orduin 22:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

He's posted provocatively on my talk page again, exactly one minute after doing so on his own page - inviting @Orduin: to message him, whereupon he will reveal his suspicions. I've replied, asking him to post here instead. His reply seems to suggest that he thinks Orduin is watching his talkpage (which may be the case - but also may not). Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking deeper, it seems that Richie and the IP editor are not the same - Richie was just duplicating the errors made by said IP editor, so I've struck that particular comment. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

70.190.111.213: repeatedly reverting biased, inaccurate edits on current events portal; refusing constructive dialogue (unarchived)

Good day all,

(this is an unarchiving of an unresolved incident)

First, I apologize in advance for any breaches of protocol I may myself have unknowingly committed, as I am a new user.

User 70.190.111.213 has, at least ten times, insisted on biased and to varying degrees inaccurate renderings of headlines on the Jan. 21 mass-stabbing in Tel Aviv. He has reverted edits by myself (Slvofjstce, previously 70.114.220.115, 72.182.49.254, and 128.62.31.0), FourViolas, 2605:e000:aa0c:f200:443a:c372:b7d9:a32e, 174.88.203.17, and Snowball359:

His current version reads:

• A Palestinian man from the West Bank, Hamza Muhammad Hassan Matrouk, illegally crosses into Israel for the express purpose to stab (sic) people attacking over a dozen Israelis on a bus in central Tel Aviv. Security forces capture the assailant as he continued to indiscriminately stab people in the street. (The New York Times)

As I've pointed out in my edits, and on his talk page, his headline is overly long, openly biased, and contains two pieces of information either not present in, or contradicted by, the article he provides. My suggested version reads:

• A Palestinian man from the West Bank stabs up to a dozen Israelis in Tel Aviv before being apprehended. (The New York Times)

Once I had familiarized myself with Misplaced Pages's editing protocols, I decided to reach out to 70.190.111.213 to hopefully end the annoying cycle of reversion (see: User talk:70.190.111.213, January 2015 ). I apologized for the preceding back-and-forth, and explained my concerns with his edits, as well as the rationale behind the changes I had suggested. I requested we engage in productive dialogue before any further edits be made; to that end, I agreed not to change his headline for over eight hours, in that hope that we could open dialogue before then. I received no response during those eight hours, then went ahead and made the edit I had previously suggested. Three minutes later, he reverted the edit. He has since done so two more times, once for FourViolas and once for me. He has not responded to my request for dialogue, but has referred to me as a "sockpuppect (sic) created just 4 days ago for block evasion."

Especially given that 70.190.111.213 does seem to be a fairly prolific and generally productive contributer to the current events portal, I'm not quite sure what action I would suggest be taken. But I do feel that he is acting unfairly and unreasonably, and I hope we can finally bring this matter to a just conclusion.

I apologize again for any inadvertent breaches of protocol, and thank you for your attention. Slvofjstce (talk) 06:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

elegent speech too bad this guy is a sockpuppet for a banned account and he just keeps changing his ip and registering new accounts to do whatever he pleases. This current account is just 3 days old (Slvofjstce) yet he already knows to come to this area to try and contrive a scam to an admin.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

he attempts to contrive an arguement that he has consensus by naming various account all of which are just today's new sockpuppet anon ip or account such as (70.114.220.115) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:17, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

another such as (72.182.49.254) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

such as (128.62.31.0) a single edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

such as (2605:E000:AA0C:F200:443A:C372:B7D9:A32E) a three edits were made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

such as (174.88.203.17) a double edit was made under this ip to the what do you know the item above and absolutely nothing else.--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

As for the "wording" of the above edit to the daily events section - the exact item can be viewed at the citation given and although paraphrased (which is exactly what we are required to do) is what the any and all citations on the internet say that i could find according to google - that "A Palestinian man from the West Bank, Hamza Muhammad Hassan Matrouk, illegally crossed into Israel for the express purpose to stabbing people attacking up to a dozen Israelis on a bus in central Tel Aviv. Security forces capture the assailant as he continued to indiscriminately stab people in the street" and that HE ADMITTED TO EXACTLY THAT UPON QUESTIONING BY AUTHORITIES--70.190.111.213 (talk) 11:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll depose that I'm not a sockpuppet, and that I reverted 70.190.111.213 for what appeared to me to be WP:NPOV problems. Misplaced Pages should strive to be dispassionate, even in extreme cases.

I propose a temporary WP:Block of the IP for edit warring and refusal to engage in dialogue, and an admonishment to all involved editors to be aware of WP's Arab-Israeli sanctions, particularly the 1RR. I think User:Slvofjstce does not need to be blocked, because they have shown themself willing to make repeated good-faith efforts to resolve the content dispute. FourViolas (talk) 14:50, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

almost certain that this is just another sock of the above person - how do i know this? - this person also says they just started at wiki (the acct was created just 3 months ago) and yet they are now giving advice to admins??? Further they dont address the issue of the rotating anon ip adove as if they are a magician - "watch this hand please" - no the endelsssly rotation of anon ips is irrelevant - yeah right?!--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

further i see no possible way they could have known that this discussion existed and yet they are now following it--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

further i have just looked through all 1000 of this supposed new persons edits since the three months ago creation and yet HERE IS THE BEST ONE YET they have EXACTLY ZERO edits to the daily events page (except the one edit they made there in support of the sock above) and yet suddenly they are an expert about what belongs there to such a degree that they, again i say, are ready to give advice to admins about blocks!--70.190.111.213 (talk) 15:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

If you believe you have credible evidence of WP:SOCKpuppetry, please open a discussion at WP:SPI. (Note that Slvtojstce already claimed most of the IPs you mention above.) On this page, please WP:KEEPCOOL and respond to Slvtojstce's specifically enumerated concerns about your edit warring and refusal to discuss the problem. Your contribs demonstrate good faith, but edit warring is simply not a good way to generate consensus. FourViolas (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Greetings, all. By Wikipedian protocol, would I be unreasonable to make my (repeatedly) proposed edits now? I don't want to unduly pour gasoline onto a fire, but I also strongly believe the current headline to be unacceptable to Misplaced Pages's standards. I hope we can move forward (whatever form that takes) by 13:00 GMT. Peace. Slvofjstce (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your discomfort with the present version, but I think it would be better to wait either until 70.190.111.213 agrees to discuss or until they are blocked for refusing to do so. WP:There is no deadline, especially because very few people look at "current events" more than a few days old. This noticeboard is for the resolution of WP:User conduct problems, not content disputes, and in this case it doesn't look like we can reach content consensus until we resolve 70.190.111.213's reverting-without-discussion behavior. FourViolas (talk) 05:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for admin action: 70.190.111.213 has been active recently, but has chosen not to add anything to this discussion since their spurious WP:Socking allegations (a characteristic attempt to deflect criticism: ). This has gone on long enough, and if 70.190.111.213 doesn't want to offer apologies or assurances that they will stop edit warring, or attacking other editors, they should be prevented from doing so. FourViolas (talk) 18:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC) I've never been involved in an AN/I discussion, and looking around I realize incidents usually take a while to resolve. Sorry to sound pushy. FourViolas (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for admin action: In the 90+ hours that have passed since FourViolas and I last requested 70.190.111.213 engage us in good faith regarding his Jan. 21 Tel Aviv stabbing attack headlines, he's found time for dozens if not hundreds of edits, but has neither opted for a more neutral/accurate reading, nor given us a word in response. I have no reason to believe that, if I make my proposed and moderate changes, he won't continue to edit war and make baseless, offensive claims of sockpuppetry. I'm new here, someone please help this move forward productively. Slvofjstce (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Clinicallytested and Electronic harassment

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I'm not certain if this is an ANI issue or a RFC/U issue ...

Edits by Clinicallytested (talk · contribs) on the article Electronic harassment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) appear to go against community consensus at talk:Electronic harassment#Incidents. The user has dismissed this consensus simply stating: "it doesn't look like there's any thoughtful consensus". Since the time I started writing this ANI post in another tab, they have also begun edit-warring over the material (now warned on their talk page).

This same user had previously edit warred over comparable material in their now deleted article at Targeted Individual (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

It appears that their sole purpose on Misplaced Pages is to soapbox over this issue, trying to shoe-horn the data in where it's at best only tangentially related. While I'm all for assuming good-faith, it's being stretched to the limits for me, so would appreciate others looking over the behavior. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Note, the user is now blocked for edit warring after commenting on their talk page: ""There's no point in discussing with a wikipedia disgusting troll". --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I've also semi-protected the page for a similar length of time. Any more misbehavior from them, and an indefblock is on the cards. -- The Anome (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Off-wiki attack page created about a Misplaced Pages editor

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While lurking on an administrator's talk page, I ran into this post about what was apparently an attack page against User:Johnpacklambert. The page is already deleted (see here). However, if the rationalwiki user () who posted this is also a Misplaced Pages, then we have a serious problem. I'm not sure what action, if any, needs to be taken here. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It's off-wiki, so there's nothing that can be done. ansh666 00:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Celia Berrell

Could an admin look at this. It's being swarmed by obvious single purpose editors, possible socks as they are all signing off in the same unusual style. Thanks LibStar (talk) 10:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I've opened Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Janine Thompson, based on the contributions at the AfD and the article. ansh666 11:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Lynctekrua and AfCs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Lynctekrua has a short and curious history on this website. He or she (I'll guess he and say "he" for convenience's sake) seems to enjoy administration and probably means well; but his zeal has included repeatedly describing himself as an administrator (see the history of his user page), and making Articles-for-Creation decisions that have at times been so bizarre that three experienced editors (two of them administrators) have recently asked him to lay off (see the recent history of his talk page). One of the latest of these decisions was to accept a draft for "Vivek Kumar Pandey" -- pretty much a re-creation of what has already been deleted numerous times; see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vivek Kumar Pandey (2nd nomination) -- to article space as Dr. Vivek Kumar Pandey (itself the title of at least one deleted article). Did he do this because of inexperience or some mere brainfart? (We all have them from time to time, or anyway I do.) No: in a message on my talk page, he shows familiarity with the word "salt", and implies that he is above such trifles as the "deletion review" process: "I am within my rights to do what I'm doing".

Lynctekrua points out that I am "not the sole administrator that decides who is worthy of contribution". This is very true, and I am one of three editors (the others being User:Kudpung and User:TAnthony) to have invited him to direct his considerable energy toward article content. He continues: "AFC is NOT a admin only task". I agree again, but suggest that competence is required, competence that I don't see.

I suggest a ban on involvement in AfCs, until Lynctekrua's other edits demonstrate the necessary degree of care (and respect for others' considered opinions). -- Hoary (talk) 09:41, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• I will just add that according to these edits, there is a distinct lack of knowledge of even the basic principles of page patrolling, plus the fact that he rarely signs his posts. The level of English is at times that of a non native speaker, but Lynctekrua understands well enough when he tries his Wikilawyering. User only has 50 edits to mainspace but claims to have enough when counting his 'other account'(?}.

• wrong page and unsigned
• CSD tag on wrong page
• masquerading as an administrator on Misplaced Pages and Commons
• Claiming to have made over 100,00 edits
• clear misunderstanding of the CSD tagging process (blanking article and placing user talk page template on it)
• inappropriate CSD tagging
• inappropriate CSD tagging.
• There's also giving himself an AfC barnstar.

See also his comments at User talk:Kudpung#Removal. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed indefinite ban on AfC involvement by User:Lynctekrua

• Support, as nominator. -- Hoary (talk) 09:41, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support Flakey AfC decisions simply defeat the purpose of having an AfC process. Shii (tock) 09:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support The (unsigned) reply at Hoary's talk (diff) shows that Lynctekrua (talk · contribs) (created 13 January 2015) should not be reviewing anything, let alone AfC. Johnuniq (talk) 10:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. As I understand it, the purpose of AfC is for experienced and competent editors to assist those with lesser experience in the article creation process. Lynctekrua clearly does not possess sufficient experience or competence to do so, and appears to exhibit an unacceptable stubbornness when offered sage advice. And deliberately bypassing the salt was just horrible - you shouldn't use an unacceptable title just because the correct one is salted, you should ask for the protection to be lifted. Squinge (talk) 10:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support (as quasi co-nom who has attempted to rason with the user), and extend the ban to patrolling pages and tagging for CSD/PROD/AfD, etc. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
  • In retrospect, I wish I had proposed this. But I didn't, and people have already agreed to what I did propose. So I suggest limiting the ban to AfC involvement for now. I'm sure that a number of editors would thereafter be looking at Lynctekrua's edits. These may improve; but if incompetence (or worse) continues, the ban can and should be extended. -- Hoary (talk) 11:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Snow! I mean support, obviously; the next editor with administrator WP:UAL please snow close this, cause you just know it's gonna pass. NE Ent 11:13, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. He was claiming that he is an admin and he edit warred for labeling himself as an administrator of wikipedia. He also wanted https://en.wikipedia.org/Localytics to be deleted. He should be also banned from any other new page process because after Afc ban he will go and disrupt any other new page patrolling. Delibzr (talk) 11:31, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

  To be fair, at the time Localytics had nothing in it but a few links, and someone did subsequently move it to Draft for development. I think the deletion request was just a bit hasty after only 7 minutes, that's all. Squinge (talk) 12:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I moved it to drafts on request of the editor. After which I continued to answer her questions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynctekrua (talk • contribs)

• Support. Lynctekrua came to my attention when he tagged an article for speedy deletion about 7 minutes after I had started creating it (an edit conflict between my subsequent adds and his tagging alerted me). I went to his talk page to ask him to give me a few minutes and ... saw several disgruntled editors doing the same. In watching his talk page since, I expected to see a little more "oops sorry, I'll tread more lightly" but he's instead been a bit dismissive and defensive. I've independently tried to give as positive commentary/constructive criticism as I can on his talk page, but it just seems as though he has moved from one form of disruption to another rather than actually make an effort to improve. This is definitely not some kind of organized "witch hunt": as he suggests, just the expected reaction when a rogue editor cuts a (albeit small) swath of disruption across Misplaced Pages ;) — TAnthony 18:50, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Per Lynctekrua below, and WP:IDHT. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 15:06, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Response

Aright... Let me Just restate my reply as to not leave you with the slightly twisted paraphrasing of Hoary..

"I found that article to comply with Misplaced Pages policy so I bypassed the salt. Lets make it clear that I am within my rights to do what I'm doing. You are not the sole administrator that decides who is worthy of contribution. I hope that you will realize that Misplaced Pages continued success depends on independent editors such as my self. AFC is NOT a admin only task, you may put policy around your script, but not around the task itself. If you have a issue with that I suggest you seek the creation of a new usergroup"

First: note that I do not know half these people and have never interacted with them. They simply rush to the aid of experienced and well known wiki editors. With that said, administrator who reviews this, try avoid bias given the fact that it's well known editors who have mounted this siege.

Second: I do admit to adding a admin banner on my page which for obvious reasons is unacceptable, however, following the subsequent warnings I have fully removed them.

Third: Despite the impressive list of editing flaws you have mounted against me, I see 252 successful edits. Note that is account was created with the intent of preforming moderation tasks. If that's how I so chose to contribute, then so be it. Time will only improve my practices.

Forth: While you may all think your arguments are compelling, you all more or less say the same thing. Well let me tell you, a relatively short list of short comings does NOT justify banning. Behold the Misplaced Pages bully's.

May I just add, I also expect this ban to take place. Not because of proven causality and effect, but because 10 well known editors have gone on a witch hunt. If you do the math, more then 90% of my edits are valid and successful. And for the edits that were problematic, they occurred at the very beginning of my editing venture. I would respond to reply's and take into account what the editor suggested, unless of course the advise was "stop editing".

Lynctekrua (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2015 (UTC) Lynctekrua (talk)

• Let's just get some facts straight, Lynctekrua: You are still at the very beginning of your editing venture. You only have 50 edits to mainspace and a total of 268. That's nowhere near enough to get you enrolled at the Counter-vandalism school where you can begin to learn about one of the easier maintenance tasks. In spite if claiming on my talk page that you have experience from your 'other account' you still have not mastered the basics of posting on discussion pages. There are no witch hunts and nobody is bullying you, but it's plain that experienced members of the community have decided that you are not ready to be doing any 'moderation' tasks. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:41, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• I'd like to clarify that this isn't a proposal for an indefinite site ban for you, but a ban from involvement in Articles for Creation reviewing for now due to your lack of experience. Sam Walton (talk) 15:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Lynctekrua, I hope you don't mind that I added a sub-heading for your Response and I've formatted your reply to me above correctly. It's just to keep the layout easier to follow and easier to respond to. Squinge (talk) 16:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Lynctekrua is now reviewing AfC drafts in defiance of this ANI at the rate of one a minute using the helper script to which he theoretically has no access. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
  • This is completely absurd. The "one a minute" behavior is exactly why he is being considered for a ban. I have blocked him for a week so that he stops doing this while the ban is being considered. Shii (tock) 17:35, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
    • I looked through the AfCs reviewed in the past day. Most look acceptable, but one of the pages, Draft:Kirill Chernegin, has a mysterious-looking denial reason instead of an actual explanation of WP:BIO. Shii (tock) 17:41, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
      • Worse than that. Seeing your comment, I looked at this particular draft, and thought it mildly promising. (But I wasn't in a mood to accept it, mostly because the claimed sources are in Russian, which in itself is unobjectionable but is problematic for my linguistically challenged self.) I therefore simply reverted Lynctekrua's edit to it. And what did I read at the top of this earlier version? After bold-stripping: Draft article not currently submitted for review. / This is a draft Articles for creation submission. It is not currently pending review. ¶ Hate to say this, but I think a lot of Lynctekrua's edits need reexamination. -- Hoary (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)  PS  Uh, hang on. There's some weird shinola going on. Yes, I really did read that at the top of the draft. The history of the draft shows that my reversion of Lynctekrua's edit is still the most recent edit (ie the draft should be just as I left it). However, a few minutes ago the draft showed no such header template. Indeed, it showed no header template at all. Instead, it showed a footer template; and this said: Review waiting. / This may take several weeks, to over a month. The Articles for creation process is severely backlogged. Please be patient. There are 2,002 submissions waiting for review. The template in question is "{{AFC submission|t||ts=20150124102738|u=Netnikogda|ns=118}}". Now, "{{AFC submission|T}}"is supposed to trigger "{{Template:AFC submission/draft}}"; when I look at the latter, I see Draft article not currently submitted for review etc etc. No change has been made to Template:AFC submission/draft since 21 January; maybe it transcludes some other template that has been changed. Briefly, I don't claim to understand this stuff at all, but I'm much less confident than I was earlier that Lynctekrua ignored a template telling him not to review the draft. -- Hoary (talk) 08:18, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

This guy seems to have attempted to give himself admin power by copying a blocking Javascript into his userspace: User:Lynctekrua/easyblock.js

Combined with his multiple attempts to add the statement "This user is an administrator" to his userpage, I wonder whether this might be considered malicious behavior. Shii (tock) 00:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

More likely simple trolling. Johnuniq (talk) 00:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• I know othing about scripts but it looks as if he has gained access to the helper script by loading the entire code into his .js page. I have requested deltion of the page at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Lynctekrua/afch-rewrite.js/submissions.js. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
  • It appears that he modified the script so that he can review unsubmitted drafts Shii (tock) 02:49, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: This section had been allowed to be archived without being closed, but since thee is a clear consensus here, I am restoring the section so that it can be properly closed, with a statement of the result of the discussion. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:06, 31 January 2015‎ (UTC)}}

Quack

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Hi,

Can we get an extension of the block on PabloOsvaldo17 for evasion through use of IP address. 78.146.12.217. The quacking does seem quite pronounced. Amortias (T)(C) 13:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

 Done Bish got it done, -- Diannaa (talk) 19:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but for the sake of accuracy, Diannaa I got it done, while Bish blocked the IP address. (Note that Amortias's request was for an extension of the block on the account, not for an IP block.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

How about a chocolates for all involved approach to make sure everyones appropriatley complimented? Amortias (T)(C) 21:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Tom Ruen warring with gross incivility

Tomruen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) started warring at Star polygon and generally throwing etiquette to the wall:

• Talk:Star polygon#gallery in the article is the main discussion.
• Star polygons being saturated with images is my appeal for help at the maths Wikiproject.

Tom has, among other things:

• Warred over posting excessive images: his edit - my deletion - his partial restore - my deletion invoking BRD - his partial restore
• been rude to me in an edit comment but, as can be seen from the article talk page (link above), his apology is pretty mealy-mouthed.
• Modified a comment of mine on the Project discussion - no big deal save for what followed:
  • I reverted it with an explanatory edit comment about not editing others' posts.
  • He then edited another of my posts in an unrelated conversation, in a way that does not fit in with the posts around it, since other editors had used the term but he did not change their usage to match his version of mine.

I dropped a warning on his talk page but he brushed it off: both here.

He is a highly experienced editor with a ten-year userbox on his user page, but nevertheless in his discussions he is professing ignorance of so much etiquette that it beggars belief. His justification for warring was that he didn't even know what BRD was. But having had it pointed out, that has not stopped him. He has very profuse output and it is hard to floow his edits or it would be easier to let this pass, but we are bumping into each other a lot and things can't go on like this.

I was going to request a short topic ban to bring him back to reality. But then he accused me of lying so I'd like to Request a short editing block for his gross incivility. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I will try to be available for questions over my behavior. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

On the last charge, I consider repeating false information as lying given I already counterered on talk, but I offered confusion as my explanation for Steelpillow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s rude accusation.

1. I added 30 unique images .
2. Steelpillow reverted, cutting to 0 .
3. I restored, compromised, added back 13.
4. Steelpillow reverted, cutting to 0 .
5. I restored, and attempted to merge better with text, split into two tables for convex and star polygons, and ended with 18 .
6. Another editor, Double sharp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) tried a compromise for SteelPillow, recombined the tables down to 12 and then tried 8 .
7. I added 4 NEW image upon request by DoubleSharp , and explained on talk and and offered my opinion that 8 is to small.
8. Double sharp attempted a compromise, reduced 12 to 8 again, removing 2 old images, and leaving 2 new images from the set he requested.

So when Steelpillow FALSELY claims "a third editor cut the gallery down drastically and Tom has since added images back in again without discussion." it is reasonable to call that accusation as lying by confusion. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Tom's reply is the one that is confused. After DoubleSharp cut the list to 8 but suggested two more, I suggested that one would be enough . Tom saw fit to ignore the conversation at this point and add several more. We know that was without consensus because DoubleSharp reduced them again. There is neither confusion nor lie in the account I give above. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

We're in agreement. 4>2 and 4>1, and my enthusiastic 4 images were delicately remerged with the selection of other 8, all without the aid of my inability to choose. So we can both be grateful for DoubleSharp's expert pruning skills. Tom Ruen (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)