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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Goethean (talk | contribs) at 19:03, 18 July 2006 (header). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Deletions

I noted Tom DeLay is facing criminal charges. User:Tdl1060 seems to take exception to this and has made multiple edits to delete this fact. I realize this article is focused on Roskam; however, I strongly believe this is a relevant point. Roskam previously worked for DeLay. Roskam has received funding from DeLay. Roskam has recently spoken in support of DeLay, with his quotes appearing in mainstream publications, such as the Chicago Sun Times. Roskam's own behavior has made Tom DeLay an issue. This is going to be a campaign issue that Democrats will raise. It is inappropriate to ignore this. In the future, please discuss prior to making edits on the DeLay issue. Thanks. 13:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Tdl1060, why are you deleting sourced information from the article ( )? — goethean ॐ 23:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to have a section on contributers and list them specificly, in order to keep the article written from a NPOV, list all of the contributers not just the ones that could make Roskam look bad to some people. Secondly Tom Delay being under indictment has no bearing on the article whatsoever, all it serves to do is bias the article against Roskam. --Tdl1060 22:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the Delay phrase, and did not add it (an anonymous editor did). But you are wrong about the contributors. These are contribution inforamtion that one editor found notable. If you find other contributions notable, add more information rather than deleting. — goethean ॐ 23:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

You have again deleted information. I will put it back in the article for a third time. — goethean ॐ 16:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

goethean, you deleted information about Judy Biggert's criticisms of Peter Roskam's support of gambling and tobacco interests. You stated the article is about Roskam. I think criticisms of Roskam's positions by another elected official is relevant. Would it be better form to mention the criticisms without attributing them to Representative Biggert? Your assistance in presenting the material in an appropriate matter would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.137.41 (talk • contribs)

I have now replaced the information that was deleted. What I meant to delete (and did) was the fact that Duckworth accepted money from PACs. Hence my edit summary that this article is about Roskam. It could have been a database burp. — goethean ॐ 20:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Goethean, didn't you say this aricle was about Roskam? Why is McSweeney's criticisms of Kathy Salvi relivant?--Tdl1060 21:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a fair point. But I would appreciate discussion for future deletions, as some of your edits have been borderline vandalism. — goethean ॐ 21:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the phrase which calls Joe Dunn a social conservative from the article, just because Joe Dunn may be more conservative than some on social issues does not make him a social conservative over all--Tdl1060 22:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to a poll conducted by the Windy City Times (a publication for homosexuals). Putting poll results in the article by a gay publication on an issue such as this is akin to putting results from an NRA sponsored poll saying a majority of Americans disagree with an assult weopons ban, The Windy City Times clearly is not impartial on this issue--Tdl1060 21:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Instead of deleting sourced information, I would recommend leaving both the poll and the source in, and trust readers to interpret the results. — goethean ॐ 21:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If you can find poll results by a more impartial source put them in there, but if a user has to rely on questionable sources to make the point they want, I feel it is best left out of the artice.--Tdl1060 22:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. If you can find another poll that measured the same opinion, please include it. — goethean ॐ 22:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think poll results from the Windy City Times should be automatically excluded because they're a publication geared towards homosexuals. They are a legitimate newspaper. Granted their editorial positions are likely in favor of gay rights; however, this doesn't discredit their polling or reporting. The Chicago Tribune has consistently endorsed Republican Presidentail candidates throughout recent history. That doesn't mean their criticism of a Democratic candidate should be dismissed without consideration. I'll live with your deletion. The reason I'm going to let it go -- I'm afraid too many readers will have a similar reaction as you did and reject the findings due to the source. Instead I noted business groups, such as the Chicago Chamber of Commerce, were in support of the legislation. I hope this conveys the legislation does have a broad-based appeal. There are several traditionally Republican groups that backed this legislation (and many others who quietly stood to the side so it could be passed). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.68.74 (talk • contribs)

Language

This edit is unhelpful. AMT "relief" is empty rhetoric, and Misplaced Pages is not in the business of propagating Republican propaganda. We need a word that explains what "relief" means in this context rather than mindlessly repeating Republican talking points. Misplaced Pages would call the Bush tax cuts "tax cuts" rather than "tax relief" as the Republicans call them (or "taxes deferred" as an economist would). I attempted to insert a more descriptive word and was reverted. Please explain Roskam's position with meaningful language, if you can. For starters, is he in favor of increasing or decreasing the number of people who fall under the AMT? — goethean ॐ 22:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

User:Goethean What source do you have that Roskam wants to increase the number of people that fall under the AMT or "expand" it. I do not have a complete knowlege of his exact position on it but from what I have gathered he does not want to change the number of people who would fall under the tax but cut it in totality. If his position cannot be explained in a more specific way would it be better if any referance to a position on the Alternative Minimum Tax be removed from the article?--Tdl1060 22:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Anglican

The AMiA only has an indirect affiliation with the Episcopal Church USA as they are both in communication with the Church of England--Tdl1060 22:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Your text was unclear about what your clause modified in my clause, so I changed it to the following:

It has been described by the Anglican Journal as a "right-wing faction" of the Episcopal Church, although technically it is Anglican rather than Episcopalian.

— goethean ॐ 22:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The only part quoted from the Anglican Church of Canada's article is "right wing" so I changed it to: "right wing" faction of the Anglican Church.--Tdl1060 22:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Avoiding generalities

Roskam supports tort reform and fiscal responsibility

What candidate does not claim to support "fiscal responsibility"? The phrase is meaningless without specifics. I suggest that we delete the phrase. — goethean ॐ 20:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Norquist

User:Goethean Norquist has not been convicted so your premice for reverting my edit, that "Roskam is supported by criminals" is invalid.--Tdl1060 16:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Norquist

User:Tdl1060 has been deleting the following information from the article:

Norquist has been criticized for aiding convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff as a financial conduit.

Norquist, a Roskam supporter, laundered money for a convicted criminal. This is not notable or related? — goethean ॐ 16:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The criticisms of Grover Norquist are fair game. Roskam chose to accept support from Norquist; had he declined it wouldn't be an issue. It doesn't matter if Norquist has been convicted or not. There is a reliable source (Washington Post) that voiced a criticism. That is an objective fact. 18:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

Roskam is a candidate in a highly disputed congressional race. There is a consistent bias (often from a user who doesn't use a username) erasing or altering any information that reflects positively on Roskam, and inserting information that is biased, innacurate, or irrelevant. Some examples include: frequently using biased blogs as sources, including (and reinserting if deleted) personal and obvious slams and jokes such as the comment from Rick Carney (link 38) and the comment at link 17. In addition, sections such as the distant chain of connection with Exelon (link 47) and the CWF's trouble with the FEC, which was declared by the FEC to not implicate Roskam's '98 campagin (link 32), are frequently added in even as properly validated comments are deleted. Allowing both sides' comments to remain, as long as they list good sources is important, as is accurately reflecting the information in the sources instead of only listing half of the source's comments. For example, in the Chicago Tribune article on Gun Control, the unknown user inserted complaints about Roskam's legislation restricting gun purchase, but ignored the part of the article that noted that Roskam also introduced new legislation strengthening important gun control. When this information was inserted, the user properly erased an innacurate part of it, but also erased the entire part about Roskam's beneficial gun control actions, allowing only one side to be heard. Such actions have been occuring consistently for weeks, and even months.

Reader5 16:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The comment by Rick Carney (currently link 38), while it is a joke, does serve to illustrate an important point - that Roskam has relocated on multiple occasions to advance his political career. He has moved between Wheaton, Naperville, etc. Perhaps a more formal discussion of Roskam's changes in residence would be better. I will look into this.

I believe Roskam's connection to Exelon (currently links 46 and 47) is valid. Roskam has chosen to accept, on multiple occasions, from a company accused of nuclear pollution. It was recently announced that in addition to Braidwood, Exelon had tritium leaks at the Dresden plant in Morris, IL and at a third plant (now closed) in Zion, IL. The fact that several communities near the 6th Congressional District have been affected makes it of particular interest.

The FEC violation by the Campaign for Working Families does not implicate Roskam directly (currently link 32). You are correct, and I think subsequent edits were appropriate. What the article now states seems fair and there is a reliable source (the FEC). It is still of relevance because the conduct of Roskam's supporters reflect upon him.

Reader5 where I disagree with you the most is in regards to the criticisms of Roskam's gun position. You feel that other editors have attempted to suppress the fact that Roskam supported closing the gun-show loophole. However, he only voted for this in a piece of legislation that called for the destruction of records for firearm purchases. Nearly every gun-control organization was opposed to this. Roskam could have authored legislation closing the gun-show loophole, without calling for record destruction. Roskam and his supporters have tried to illustrate this as a balanced compromise, but gun-control advocates and independent observers, such as the Chicago Tribune, believe it to be a Red herring. There are always political games (both parties are guilty) where Bill A (i.e. banning murder) is amended in a contradictory or unrelated manner (i.e. repeal all environmental regulations), so that if a legislator votes against the bill, the authors can claim the opposing politician supports murder. This is an obvious logical fallacy. So if you wish Reader5 to include Roskam's support of the legislation closing the gun-show loophole, that's fair (as long as you provide a proper source), but realize others (possibly myself) will edit further to show Roskam's support may have been disingenuous. I will of course cite proper sources.

I intend to remove the NPOV check tag in a few hours, unless you make specific recommendations as to what should be changed and what the revised language should be. Thank you.

Propol 18:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. In response to the Exelon point, I disagree in a few places. First of all, the fact that issues such as the Tritium leak at the Braidwood plant occurred outside the sixth district is important. Roskam and Major Duckworth are both running to represent the sixth district, not the surrounding communities. In addition, one of the founders of Exelon is Congressman Rahm Emanuel, one of Major Duckworth's main supporters. However, no one is posting on Duckworth's wikipedia entry that she is therefore responsible for, or even connected to Exelon and its dispute involving the Braidwood plant, even though she recieved support in approximately equal connection to it as Roskam did. We all realize that, without further data, such a connection is extremely tenuous.

With respect to the gun control law, Roskam's action was in fact paralleling federal law. Just like federal law held that federal agencies had to destroy NICS (National Instant Check System) records within 24 hours, federal law also required that non-federal government groups destroy NICS records as well (though not specifically within 24 hours). Illinois has its own instant check system in addition to the NICS system. However, Roskam's legislation simply paralleled the rules for the NICS which specifically prohibited using firearms background checks to establish a firearms registration system nationally or in the states. At the same time, the legislation he introduced recognized that the police might need the records for longer than just one day. The Illinois legislation still allowed police some time to use the records (90 times longer than the federal government allowed its own agencies to keep records) while preventing the state government or its subparts from invading citizens' privacy. This legislation in now way interfered with Illinois law requiring all gun owners to have a Firearm Owner's I.D. card, allowing police to still have a good idea who possessed firearms.

Reader5 02:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as the Exelon issue, I understand your point (it's only tangentially linked), but I think it should remain. Per FEC records, Roskam accepted donations directly from Exelon and Duckworth did not. Roskam received donations from Exelon's PAC (typical) but he also received donations from CEO John Rowe and other senior officers, which is less typical and suggests more of a relationship. I don't think the geographical location (outside the district) of Exelon's tritium leaks invalidates it as a campaign issue. Nuclear pollution would be an issue even if it were occurring outside the United States. By the way, if you want to document a Rahm Emanuel / Exelon link, I think that would be fair for Rahm's page. All politicians should be accountable for whom they accept support from. I would like to reach a consensus. Are there any edits that I can make to the paragraph on the Exelon issue that would make you more comfortable? What are your thoughts? Thanks. Propol 04:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

On the gun issue, forgive me, but I'm going to poke a little fun at you. What, a Republican arguing for privacy rights? Isn't that a little inconsistent with other positions (abortion) held by Roskam? OK, all teasing aside, I'll think over a more serious response and post tomorrow. Propol 04:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• grins* First of all, believe it or not, I'm an independent. Second of all, in return: What? A Democrat arguing against privacy rights? Isn't that a little inconsistent with complaints about NSA wiretapping and the like held by Democrats (or Duckworth - can't say I actually know what she's said on that issue)? More seriously, I don't have time to write on the Exelon issue right now, but I'll try to get back to the page on that soon. Reader5 19:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Campaign censorship / advocacy

I am concerned about a couple of users. Perhaps they are new, so I will try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think User:Reader5's conduct has been questionable. All of his/her edits have been to the Peter Roskam article. Verify User:Reader5's contributions here. Many of the edits have been deletions of sourced information. Several of the additions cite Roskam's campaign web site as the sole source. Aside from basic biographical information, I think it would be best not to use such a site. See reliable sources. Lastly, information was been presented in a highly biased manner, i.e. noting Roskam received a 100% rating from an environmental group two years ago, but neglecting to mention he received a 67% rating in 2005 and only 40% in 2003. I try to remain open-minded, but it comes across as the work of a campaign operative. I'm hopeful that this conduct will improve. Just so you know, I'm not opposed to information favorable to Roskam. I just think it needs to be done properly. A more recent edit, noting Roskam has voted for tax cuts and providing a link to the Illinois General Assembly is much better form. 204.16.84.50 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You both need to read Assume good faith. These accusations aren't really actionable from the point of view of Misplaced Pages. Campaign workers are free to edit articles (although several have been embarrassed, and one has even resigned, over press coverage of their actions). Comment on contributions rather than on contributors. — goethean ॐ 16:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Well, it would appear some ax grinding from some here... looking at the way the article is written right now , it appears rather negative and not true NPOV. We can agree this needs better balance. The concept of NPOV is lacking right not. I am willing to assume "good faith" but there seems to be little in this article right now and from the posters to this wiki article.

--Joehazelton 19:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)