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WP:CIVIL, edit warring, and user talk page violations by The Banner

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This post is a request for a simple warning to the title editor on the subject of edit warring, civility, and adherence to WP:CONSENSUS, and that he be required to remove material added to his user Talk page stating his intent to disregard WP:CONSENSUS and expressing a negative view of other editors in apparent violation of the user Talk page guidelines.

On the article Organic food, The Banner repeatedly restored material to the lede that had been removed by other editors, who had offered the explanations that it was poorly sourced and covered material not addressed in the body of the article as required by WP:LEAD. The material was repeatedly restored with the explanations:

• That the removal of the material in question was "annoying"
• In response to a request that he discuss his concerns on the Talk page, he reverts again stating that the editor (myself) making this request was engaging in "whitewash"
• Reaching his third reversion and unable to continue, he finally comes to the Talk page and again accuses me of "whitewashing inconvenient information".

This event seen in isolation is certainly not the largest behavior issue of the month at Misplaced Pages, and I probably did not help the situation by failing to recognize that an edit described by The Banner in his edit summary as a reversion actually contained new citations. But it is troubling in the context provided by his user page, which

• States that he intends to pursue his individual ideas about what is best for the encyclopedia irrespective of consensus. As I understand it, this is a violation of user page guidelines
• Features a picture of an individual being run over by a truck, with the caption "Unconventional but effective support for Wikipedians involved in the War against Vandalism, POV-pushing, Spamming and bad faith edits". Overall the page expresses a lack of confidence in other editors with respect to their good faith and / or competence and reinforces the previous comment about ignoring WP:CONSENSUS.

I respectfully request a simple warning regarding adherence to WP:GF,

It would be far better when a large bunch of editors start looking at what is really happing at the article Organic food. To my opinion the article is hopelessly POV and unnecessary vague and negative due to the constant removal of anything positive. The article is victim of misusing of WP:MEDRS, that is used to remove everything what can remotely seen as a health claim, like the chemical contents of an item. Even when you publish a statement sourced by an item published by an university or agricultural college, it can be removed as being in conflict with WP:MEDRS (while organic food is about agriculture, not about health or healthcare).

The article is completely ring fenced and there are always a few people at hand to step in and help out. The consensus Formely 98 is not a real one, just one of a good organised and very loud group. The many discussions on the talkpage are proof of that.

In fact, in this case it is Formerly 98 who is POV-pushing and removing a sentence that is backed up by three sources. And he removed it without an explanation but with a warning that I could be blocked. That warning is what is very friendly described as "unfriendly behaviour", I have saved him the word starting with a "b" and containing a "y". This AN/I discussion seems the reflection of an editor not winning the discussion on arguments... The Banner talk 17:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Banner became frustrated a long while ago in the organics articles, that other editors (Like me) insist that health claims about food need sources that comply with WP:MEDRS, and he has taken to personal attacks about "whitewashing" etc for quite a while. He has been asked many times to stop. Difs of his disruptive comments:

• dif
• dif
• dif
• dif
• dif
• dif
• dif
• dif

It just goes on and on (there are many more of these). I've just been letting it go as I have had enough of drama boards. But Formerly just asked Banner to strike Banner's last personal attack of "whitewashing" which Banner blew off, writing "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". Since he seems unable to contribute constructively to the topic anymore, I suggest a topic ban for him. Jytdog (talk) 00:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

And this fits perfectly in the way the people operate there. This is not trying to discuss things, this is plain bullying. The Banner talk 01:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact, just give me that topic ban. I accept it. The only thing it proves is the moral bankruptcy of the CABAL operating at Organic food, who do not care about the encyclopaedia. Too bad they sacrifice a potential good article to their own ideas and refuse to start meaningful discussions, bu know how to waive with policies, guidelines and essays to bully everybody away. Is six months enough for your vindication? The Banner talk 02:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The Banner on the chance that your opening words were not meant in irony: if you will agree to voluntarily stay away from the organics topic I will withdraw my recommendation and we can avoid more drama. Do tell. Jytdog (talk) 07:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not frustrated about MEDRS, I am frustrated about the misuse of MEDRS to remove everything that is positive, making this article overly negative and vague. The Banner talk 04:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The Banner (and to explain the background a bit more for the closer) I understand that you really believe that eating organically produced food makes you healthier. But the science doesn't support that belief. Most of that is just due to the messiness of reality -- the variability of the food produced by any method, and the difficulty and expense of studying the effect of eating foods so barely different, in such a way that produces really definitive results. Based on WP's PAG, we just cannot make the kind of definitive statements you want to make, based on your belief. I am sorry you are so frustrated with that, and I am sorry that you have allowed your frustration to make you a disruptive presence in the organics articles. You really threw down the gauntlet when you refused to strike your personal attack and wrote "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". In my view that leaves the community little choice but to pick the gauntlet up and topic ban you. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a very interesting statement that you make here. In fact you say that the scientific research is unreliable due to many factors that can not be taken into account when testing food due to the messiness of reality. Still, you use it as a reason to remove sourced content. Why?

I have many times asked for a proper reasoning about why WP:MEDRS is used on an article that is clear in the remit of agriculture. The answer was always health-claims. But unfortunately, the definition of "Health-claim" commonly used is rather fuzzy. And it is interesting to see that many so called "health-claims" are rejected due to the scientific research that you just called unreliable due to the messiness of reality.

It is also interesting that you now go into personal remarks about what you think I believe. Unfortunately, you are wrong in your line of thinking. Combined with the "gauntlet", I just see a failure of AGF. It would be rather spectacular when I get a topic ban due to the sourcing of unsourced text. The Banner talk 17:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. The Banner has been edit warring on this page in the past (though never quite crossing 3RR ) and warned about it . The main issue appears to be that the editor is very reluctant to go to the talk page as multiple reverts seem to occur first when a dispute arises rather than going to the talk page once a dispute is apparent. These edit summaries demonstrate the main incident I've been involved in:

1. Myself asking for discussion on newly added content without a source: "removing per WP:STATUSQUO. If it's going to be included, continue to discuss and reach consensus on the talk page on an appropriate source and proposed content relevant to the source."
2. Reverted. My response: "Multiple users have pointed out issues with the sourcing of the content on the talk page. Please join the conversation rather than edit war."
3. "Reverted. My response: Again, please join the discussion on the talk page if you feel strongly per WP:BRD. We need a source, not reverts here."

So, that was three times I had to ask for talk page discussion where everyone else was at least while The Banner kept reverting. This was awhile ago, but it looks like this pointy behavior is continuing. Looking at the user's block logs for things like edit warring, disruptive editing, and battleground mentality, they should know better, but it doesn't seem like past history or more current warnings have helped in this article either. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban The Banner has already blown off all requests to revert or remove personal attacks, and seems unable to operate per WP:CIVIL and WP:CONSENSUS. I no longer think a warning will suffice. Formerly 98 (talk) 03:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban as well as a block. Editors should be given a second chance but not when they are not going to change and keep doing the same thing after being blocked. 23.27.252.213 (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
  • It looks] that you got yourself blocked, mr. IP. The Banner talk 15:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic Ban As constant violation of WP:3RR, WP:CIVIL, and WP:CONSENSUS is unacceptable.Weegeerunner (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support banning this user completely This editor has an overall detrimental effect on Misplaced Pages. I have had a lengthy series of interactions with this user. In general he has been the least WP:CIVIL, the least collegial individual I have met in my 7 years on Misplaced Pages. He is a mass editor, primarily interested in inserting his WP:POV, his censorship, executed by his deletion of content. His constant tactic is to attack his accusers. I have collected a legacy of his hostile interactions with other users, which when I had it as part of my sandbox he successfully had deleted. So I have a lengthy page off line documenting at least 38 hostile interactions with other editors. Just let me know how to post that for your reading enjoyment. His favorite targets are relative novice editors. He is an excellent wikilawyer. He knows his tools, his intimidation tactics have scared most of them away--many have gone away permanently as in, they have stopped editing for wikipedia. I wasn't intimidated and spent weeks trying to protect content he was trying to delete (what he below calls following him around). I was successful 100% of the time in AfD debates-which shows the standards of work I deal with and shows how misguided he is. He still succeeded in speedy deletions, changing tactics before I could jump in. And ultimately he succeeded in attacking me. He found a friendly admin to tell me to back off, which I courteously did.

The Banner has been blocked already 10 times that I can find. The user below has shown a link to each of those blocks. What were the reasons? Disruptive editing, 3RR, Personal attacks or harassment.

The main message is: He has been given multiple second chances. Lightweight punishments keep getting suggested. He does not learn from them. Below he is literally sticking his tongue out at me; at all of the disciplinary actions that have taken place previously. Childish but true. They have had no effect. Look at the overall product of his work, you will find single minded obnoxiousness. His path of destruction will continue until we do something serious. He is the worst form of cyber bully and wikipedia does not need this as a representative. Reporting of the facts of his actions should not be regarded as a personal attack. Trackinfo (talk) 19:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I do think that this narrow topic ban would help. See his mass deletion of relevant content in nearly all topics you can think about. Also how fast he is given warnings and blames others of an edit war etc. I support Trackinfo s opinion. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Everything from "Support banning this user completely" to the signature was added by Trackinfo; it's not that the siteban advocate failed to sign. Trackinfo, go to Special:Contributions/The Banner and underneath "User contributions" you'll see a section For The Banner (talk | block log | uploads | logs | filter log), or something like that; that's the easiest way to reach https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AThe+Banner. Nyttend (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting, how many times are you going to ask for my complete removal, Trackinfo? You did it already several times and they all failed. Could you please be a bit more realistic and stop following me around? You have been warned before by an admin: and here . The Banner talk 03:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I have never asked for you to be banned completely in this forum before. On insignificant AfD and talk pages, yes. Now is the appropriate time, when others are also showing serious issues with your consistently bad attitude. Now is the time for someone with authority look at your overall negative body of work. They should look at your consistent incivility. Look below at your responses to Jytdog. That is a typical reaction from the Banner. His talk page is archived, 47 editions so far. Go to any one of them and you will probably find at least one other editor complaining about his edits, usually about deleting someone else's contributions, usually followed by uncivil conversation where Banner is always in the right (though he can be quite civil when his opponent retracts). His edits are constantly against the consensus of others involved with those same articles, but only one dominating personality can win those arguments, with Banner calling the other party on accusations of the techniques HE USES to bully his opponents. The concept is called Psychological projection. Look beyond this one case, this is a bad apple. And Banner; while I may not be bothering your daily activities, if you are not banned; each time you are brought back to ANI (and you will be, you've been here often) I'll be back urging your removal. The short message that you've never listened to, I'll say it here publicly: Clean up your act. More than 50 people offended by your "work" telling you that your deletions are improper, that you are obnoxious, uncivil, disruptive etc etc are not wrong. Everybody else is not crazy. You are. Trackinfo (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban. This editor has been persistently disrupted the organic food article with their disruptive WP:IDHT behavior. Yobol (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The diffs demonstrated do not strike me as particularly astounding. The editor seems to be arguing against consensus in certain discussions, and the conduct represented do not strike me as particularly horrible or aggressive. One editor against five is in the minority and as long as they accept that consensus is against them, then that's fine. They are not disruptive. That's what has happened so far with what I garner. Additionally, people citing WP:CIVIL really need to point out -which- diff that's about. The ones presented do not make me remark that 'The Banner' is uncivil. Also, people citing 3RR edit warring violations need to cite reports where they actually reported them. Tutelary (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Tutelary thanks for your comments. Based on what is presented here I see how you could say that, as I neglected to bring evidence of disruptive behavior to the articles themselves. Here is some (by far not all) evidence on that front:
  • reverts removal of OR with no edit note
  • adding biased sourced (http://www.organicitsworthit.org)
  • edit warring to keep biased source
  • jumping in in order to edit war with edit note "no need for censorship of positive things"
  • again jumping in to edit war and again on same content
  • again jumping in to edit war with edit note "Sorry, this relevant as the MEDRS-guys often claim that a difference is not significant when they remove sources not to their liking"
  • there are many many more of these. Basically as the editing community (what he calls "the MEDRS guys") works to keep the article neutral and accurate and well-sourced, Banner operates disruptively to try to keep non-neutral or badly sourced content in the article. His behavior has just devolved to disruption. I haven't even pulled in things from the other organics articles yet. Thanks for raising the question of editing behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
    • No, Jytdog, my complaint is that you are NOT keeping the article neutral but overly negative by refusing information and sources. You are trying to win a content conflict not by addressing the stated concerns but by chasing away critical editors or in my case trying to topic ban me. The Banner talk 23:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually I have been tolerating your disruptive editing and uncivil behavior. Again, you really threw down the gauntlet when you refused to strike your personal attack on Formerly and when he asked you to strike, wrote to him, "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". You have lost your self control and are revelling in it. In my view that leaves the community little choice but to pick the gauntlet up and topic ban you. Jytdog (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

And again you are showing plain bad faith by assuming something that is not even close to the truth. The Banner talk 12:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Not true? Difs.

1) you again make personal attacks about whitewashing in edit notes and on Talk

2) you are directly asked to strike the accusation/personal attack by Formerly a first time and again a second time

3) you write "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up"

very true and backed by difs. and i have provided diffs above of disruptive Talk editing and disruptive article editing. its all there. I am not assuming anything. And with RfC/U gone, this forum is the only we can deal with your pattern of bad behavior. Again, you basically dared WP to take action against you instead of simply striking your personal attack and changing your behavior. I think it is time the community took action, since you cannot control yourself. Jytdog (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to your bad faith statement You have lost your self control and are revelling in it. And why are you not commenting about the part of research that is unreliable "due to the messiness of reality". Did you corner yourself with that statement? Come on, Jytdog, the only thing you want is to shut down a critical voice. Not because I am disruptive but because I am inconvenient. The Banner talk 12:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The diffs are there to see and I am describing your pattern of behavior. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The lack of self reflection on their behavior is more evidence that this topic ban needs to be placed. Yobol (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

And do you really think a topic ban will improve the article? Or is it just step one to scare away all other critical voices? Jytdog stated above that most scientific research is unreliable, still only scientific research more or less positive is shot down, not the scientific research that is more or less negative. The Banner talk 13:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The issue here is your behavior, not the article's content. Jytdog (talk) 14:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

No, the problem is the content and the use of different systems to measure notability of new info. The Banner talk 23:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Support a narrow (article specific) topic ban. Those advocating community bans here are among the first to resort to personal attacks, confess to collating "sh*t-sheets" and have atrocious AFD contribution records as immovable inclusionists. But the attitude here with regard to specific topic areas is problematic and Jytdog has made a reasonable case for a topic ban, limited to those articles where there have been problems. But anything broader than that seems unwarranted. St★lwart 08:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I've amended my position (reversed it, if you would). The ongoing discussions here have been enlightening and I'm quite glad they've remained open. What we've seen since my first contribution (2 weeks ago) is further and further refinement of the "issues". They still include The Banner's behaviour (in part) but watching those pushing for his topic ban interact without his active involvement in the area suggests there are other major problems here and many of them relate to content, not conduct. Those that do relate to conduct apply equally to some of those of both "sides". A plague on both your houses, if you like. There are many who seem to jump to personal attacks before WP:BRD and The Banner has been one of them in only a handful of related instances. I no longer think that applying a topic ban to him alone would resolve any of the substantive issues here, and so doing to would be contrary to our policies. This needs broader and more broadly applied restrictions. St★lwart 11:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I would define the topic as "organic food". Concretely that would be Organic farming, Organic food, and Organic milk. Those are currently the articles about organic food where Banner has been acting disruptively. I would also include Organic farming as the same kinds of disputes have broken out there and that would be a place where Banner could easily carry on this behavior. Jytdog (talk) 13:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC) (amended per below Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC))

Thanks for supplying evidence that this is just a case of silencing. In regards to Organic farming, I have never edited there so I don't know why you think I was disruptive there. My last two edits on Organic milk were in July 2014, reverted by one Jytdog. Before that I have an edit in December 2013 and a few older, nearly all reverted. The Banner talk 13:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point, that you have not edited the Organic food article. I amended the statement above. My apologies.Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, we institute topic-bans to prevent disruption so including an article in a topic ban because someone "could easily" be disruptive there is unlikely to be supported. It's not something I would support anyway. Organic milk looks similar - he has edited there, but not disruptively and not extensively. The problematic article would seem to be Organic food. St★lwart 14:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Some comments by The Banner mentioned here indicate the editor is trying to "defend" the topic in general, so I don't think discussing a topic ban outside of just the article is entirely out of the question. Considering the editor has had problems with similar behavior in the past based on their block logs and those comments they've made, someone could make a decent case that the behavior is likely to keep occurring in closely related topics. That's also partly because there are a few different organic related articles out there. I'd personally just look for broad topic ban on organic food, but if the narrow approach is pursued, a short leash approach should be taken through a very direct warning that more bans will follow if problem behaviors pop up in other related articles as part of the remedy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

And other articles/topics can always be added later if Jytdog's predictions prove accurate. If The Banner wants to prove him right and so migrates the same behaviour to other articles, he would only have himself to blame. St★lwart 23:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I'd just like to stress my main point there was that there's a history of this behavior not improving despite blocks already. A topic ban helps, but is a band-aid for a more widespread problem. Because of that, an admin warning would seem like a good minimum action besides a narrow topic ban in case the behavior isn't changed for the nth time. The behavior appears to be relatively widespread in addition to the very pointed examples for this article, so it seems like some ratcheting up is needed if these cycles of block/bans and going right back to the behavior issues afterwords continue. No one has really made a great case for wider community bans like you mentioned (nor do I think they are called for right now), but it does seem like there's enough to keep a short leash if this behavior keeps coming up in the future elsewhere. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it is in WP's interest to ban him from the organic food topic, but even just a ban from Organic food would be an improvement. Jytdog (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

A neutral article is in the interest of Misplaced Pages, not silencing a critical voice. The Banner talk 23:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

By the way: this edit, in which you removed a POV-tag, is rather symptomatic for what is happing on this article. I am definitively not the only one critical about the neutrality of the article. The Banner talk 22:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose If reliable sources say that organic foods are healthier than we should include that in the article. And I'm sure that there are probably many. Mr. Guye (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

This is why ANI can be difficult. Mr. Guye reliable sources say that we cannot say that organic food is healthier. That is exactly the point here. Your "probably sure" is not how we do things in WP. Please actually read the article and the sources cited there, and please see the discussion on the talk page about sources. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Remember that this conversation is based on editor behavior. If it were just a content dispute, this conversation wouldn't be at ANI. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL, only because you refuse to admit that it is in basic just a content dispute. Talk:Organic_food#Neutrality is again evidence how MEDRS is misused, in this case to brush away a POV-tag. The Banner talk 23:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem is how you behave in content disputes as outlined above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting, so permanently saying NO in a content dispute is allowed, as that is what happening here. See for example this one: You can't place a POV flag if the basis of the POV challenge is a challenge to WP:MEDRS. Its wikipedia policy. {https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Organic_food&diff=642669126&oldid=642668116] In my opinion, that is misusing a guideline (as MEDRS is not a policy as claimed but "just" a guideline) The Banner talk 00:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. If The Banner has long-term civility and edit warring issues across the encyclopedia, then first of all a topic ban from natural foods is not going to address that. Second, I would question (but have not checked) how many of those editors favoring a topic ban are the ones who are having a content disagreement on this article, or who have had run-ins with The Banner in the past. That certainly entitles them to an opinion, but inasmuch as they are involved and there is clearly a heated content dispute afoot, that kind of !vote is not an appropriate way to apply behavioral sanctions. At a very minimum, anyone deciding the issue should discount the vote and look at their actual edits and comments. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  My brief experience wading into this article suggests there is a serious problem with POV editors camping out to establish a scientific rather than encyclopedic approach. As such, I have re-added a POV tag. This is all a legitimate matter of content discussion, but not a good place to allow a science cabal to assert ownership of an article about a subject largely outside the scope of science. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  I have been further warned not to add a POV tag. My attempt to describe the science there as science, etc., have been reverted. It's clear that there's a weird ownership issue on this particular article of smarmy science types who believe that the supremacy of peer-reviewed journal articles extends to food and taste. It's bizarre. Whatever civility problems The Banner may have, they've hit a dysfunctional editing environment here at this particular article. - Wikidemon (talk) 09:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  And going against that is what is called "disruptive behaviour" here... The Banner talk 14:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  Wikidemon the proposed topic ban is focused on the problem I am aware of. I interact little with Banner and have no comment at all on Banner's behavior elsewhere. That is a distraction from the issues at hand. Further, long-term disruption by an editor cannot be boiled down to a "content dispute". That is a mischaracterization - this is about behavior, not content. My sense is that you have not spent time investigating the history of the article and the discussions on Talk and the way that Banner has behaved, nor looked at the diffs we have provided. I encourage you to do that before you make the kind of judgement you are making. Jytdog (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

  I would be frustrated too if an article was hijacked in this way on my watch, and I am indeed somewhat irritated by my brief exposure to the dysfunctional editing environment there — I just have the good sense to recognize lost battles rather than WP:BATTLE them. So, again, if TheBanner has a long term editing problem with how they react to reasonably perceived unencyclopedic editing practices, in this case a misplaced scientific focus of an article about food, then that ought to be addressed dispassionately by uninvolved editors, not used by the editors in question to enforce their point of view. Possibly this is no more than a dispute over the subject of the article, with neither side blinking but one side having a local consensus by numbers. The page is just fine as an article about the scientific evaluation of foods certified as organic, it would make a fine subsection or child article. It could be that the broader topic including the history, economics, production methods, politics, culinary evaluation, social perception, and so on, is a different article. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

When it comes to actual content, you're butting heads with very similar issues that editors have when first entering topics such as climate change, evolution, etc. Working in scientific topics is tough, especially when it's a new area for an editor. Folks at the talk page have discussed how you can start into the topic if you want, but being an encyclopedia means we reflect the science as our focus, and that has been upheld time and again. Those are all things that if you want to discuss, that's better left at policy pages or the actual talk page. Here though we are discussing the behavior of The Banner. Whether a content dispute is "valid" or not is irrelevant when we're discussing when an editor acts inappropriately. Inappropriate actions are so whether someone thinks they are justified or not. There are dispute resolution options when someone wants to approach things civilly, but the whole case being brought here is that the user does not approach things civilly and users are tired of that specific disruption. If it was a content issues, we wouldn't be at this noticeboard. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikidemon I have looked over your contribs and I see you like to write about gastronomy, and were probably expecting a more "foodie" article on organic food. The essence of organic farming and organic food is its "purity" - that food produced organically is better (for the land, for the workers, for the consumer) because of how it is was made. In my view, people who want to learn about organic, want to understand how it is different from conventionally produced food. Much of that is handled in the organic farming article but things specific to food are addressed in the organic food article. Whether there are differences between organic and conventinally produced food, and what they might be, are questions that can be investigated with science. Now there may well be a "foodie" orientation that could add value to the article - I am not sure what that would be, but maybe content about organic restaurants, content bringing in overlaps with the Locavore movement (it appears that what differences in taste with regard to organic may be attributed to those overlaps)... stuff like that. There are ways your perspective could add value to the article. But that stuff is quite separate from what Banner has been doing, which has been disrupting the article because he has wanted content to be included that organic food is more healthy and that eating it makes people more healthy, and those claims have generally not been supported by reliable sources, and Banner has turned to disruptive behavior in protest. Jytdog (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

And again you are making things up, Jytdog. It is not a protest, it is plain concern about how a few people can keep an article POV and overly negative by applying a guideline (not a policy as is often claimed) that should not be applied at all. And what you do is just trying to silence a critical voice. The Banner talk 11:22, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

• My point on the topic ban proposal is exactly as I say, that: (i) if The Banner's run-ins with other editors are broader than this one topic (which they may be if you do an archive search , then shooing them away on an article-by-article basis isn't useful; and (ii) complaints and !votes coming from one side of a POV dispute should be weighed carefully. The whole question of science and food comes in only inasmuch as this is a bona fide POV dispute, not one editor pushing fringe content. Being an encyclopedia means applying a scientific POV to claims about science, not to all of human knowledge. Whereas the "essence" of the organic food movement may be about meeting consumer desires for health, and environmental and social responsibility, the realization of those desires is an industry, a certification, distribution and retail channels, and a genre of food, which means that any intersection with science is only partial. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

What I have been saying all along is we should look at this user's overall pattern of negativity. I have zero involvement with this topic. A small topic ban will not solve The Banner's general hostility to the opinions of other, well meaning editors (essentially forcing his POV); his constant incivility; and his mass deletion of relevant content. I fear this is about to fall off the ANI list into the archives with no resolution and he'll continue to get away with this pattern of activity . . . that is at least until he is back here again--as the above notation demonstrates he's apparently been in ANI 48 times already. Trackinfo (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

And what is the relevance of that? Are you so desperate to get me blocked that you start using every form of harassment to get what you want? While you have been warned by an admin to stop harassing me multiple times? Want to keep gambling with that? The Banner talk 12:56, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I do think that this narrow topic ban would help at the article in question at least. Problems in other topics just establish the editor has been made aware of the problem behavior many times for the purpose of this ANI. If someone wants to pursue issues in a wider range, probably better to take a similar approach to WP:ROPE and see what happens after action on this specific topic. This has been open for 11 days now with one oppose actually asking about behavior with some good conversation following that, so maybe it would be helpful if an admin would give their assessment of consensus at this point unless more folks have comments on The Banner's behavior? Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I would agree WP:ROPE would give everybody a chance to either see a correction in his behavior or to finally rid ourselves of him. What it takes is follow up. Like I said, he's been in ANI 48 times, this has been here you say for 11 days and yet nobody has taken the action to look at his record. Yes, its massive. He is on the cusp of being a top 1,000 editor and there are literally thousands of edits he's made that are protested by other editors; in hostile retorts to those protests; or defending his actions here and elsewhere. So let him hang himself, but it takes serious follow up, essentially a full time job. I tried to follow him for just a short period of time and it is too much labor to fight every hostile thing he does. And he bites. Of course, I'm not an admin. I did it the right way for an editor. For each erroneous deletion, I came back with multiple sources. That takes the defender much more work than his snap delete policy. So the investigation could be exhausting. He is great spouting off policy excuses, he will wikilawyer you on every point, repeatedly, but its all Bullshit. When do you say, enough is enough? He has already used up more than enough rope for me. Trackinfo (talk) 09:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Trackinfo, how many times are you warned to stop harassing me? I guess you did not get that message at all. The Banner talk 12:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

So folks, my appeal to get an Administrator to seriously look at this guy will get you this: " This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass a fellow Wikipedian again, as you did at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. The Banner talk 12:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC)" Trackinfo (talk) 14:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget to tell that admin Drmies has already told you twice to stop harassing me. Trackinfo! The Banner talk 16:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

• Note - Banner's disruptive behavior of making personal attacks has been continuing, even as we are discussing his behavior here:
  • dif not getting it, saying this ANI is about content. "I have accepted by now that it is hopelessly POV and that you can get topic banned by pointing at that. "
  • dif just today: continuing the personal attacks, "Because you fail to acknowledge that it is in fact a content-conflict as that would be inconvenient for your cause". He doesn't even understand the problem. WP:IDHT Jytdog (talk) 14:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

• • Jytdog, are you serious? You call those statements "personal attacks"? The Banner does, it is true, use strong language every now and then, but I see nothing here that is even worth discussing, and I get the feeling that some (who aren't editors of that article, for instance) are just looking for an excuse to get Banner in trouble. Now, if the aggravating circumstances are to be found in some words and a picture on Banner's user page, I suggest that Formerly 98 removed the image from their talk page that proves without a shadow of a doubt that they are a troll. I'm kidding. Drmies (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

You have to admit, I'm a good-looking guy....:>) Formerly 98 (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98, I was pleased to be able to copy something fun and immediately appropriate here. Thanks for making my argument for me! Seriously, I don't think you'll gain much traction here from Banner's user page, which is probably why no one who isn't involved with the organic bit seems to have commented here... Thanks, Drmies (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe its just me Drmies, but I'd say there is a difference between posting a tongue-in-cheek self portrait on one's userpage, and declaring one's intent to ignore Misplaced Pages guidelines and edit war on the other. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

It's been stressed multiple times above and elsewhere to The Banner that a content dispute is not an excuse for behavior like this, but they keep going back to saying this is just a content dispute. Attempts to direct them towards the issue of their behavior in a helpful and good faith are met with hostility as can be seen in the responses throughout this poist. In the example diffs I gave above, I also left The Banner a warning on their talk page after constantly refusing to come to the article talk page, followed by The Banner leaving a warning on my talk page about edit warring for trying to get them to start discussing . I tried to stress that the reason their reverts were being reverted was because they were ignoring repeated requests to come to the talk page , but it seems by that exchange that this user is more interested in going after those who point out their problem behavior. As Jytdog mentioned, definite IDHT behavior than acknowledging a problem, so it doesn't seem any amount of discussion will alleviate the issue, hence why we're here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

• Kingofaces43, what I see is three diffs from August of last year where you revert the addition of apparently verified content with a somewhat lame reference to STATUS QUO--one man's status quo is another man's impeding progress. If those reverts are the extent of Banner's disruption (a half a year ago), well...and have you noted that, if Banner is edit warring there, then you are too? Drmies (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, I wouldn't call it blatant edit warring on my part (at least in comparison). How else are we supposed to respond when an editor ignores a current ongoing discussion? Remember that each time I had to ask for the talk page discussion to continue or for The Banner to rejoin the conversation rather than edit war contrary to the current discussion. The whole problem was that The Banner was trying to circumvent the discussion. The spirit of WP:EW is that we try to engage in discussion when there is a disagreement on content (as I was doing). I was trying to re-engage The Banner in discussion to bring them back to the conversation each time rather than trying to fight for content. Perspective matters here, so it's helpful to remember there was already discussion going on before the linked reverts.

Basically, another editor added the content unsourced, discussion ensued. They brought some sources they thought would work, but the sources didn't' support the content as there was some orignial research going on to make the statement. There was quite a bit of discussion about this under the Perceptions heading I linked you to. The Banner had been involved in that conversation too, so he knew about it. At that point there was no consensus for a source that worked for the content and we were in the process of finding sources that would work. That's why I removed the unsourced content (the status quo comment) citing the ongoing work at the talk page since we were actively trying to rework the content and find sources. That's pretty standard practice for challenged new content, especially if unsourced while its being discussed and reworked. Keep in mind this was all before the reverts by The Banner, so there was plenty of talk page discussion. Then he tried to reinsert the content with the source that had been challenged already. I reverted pointing him back to the ongoing talk page discussion that he had already been involved in, but the reverts continued. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Also just to be clear, I never claimed this was the only incident of disruption at the article. I just gave it as a single example of the problematic behavior that I've experienced to keep things concise. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Drmies thanks for commenting, and for injecting some fun into the discussion. {i love that self-portrait :) } As I wrote above, I've been ignoring Banner's constant focus on contributors not content on Talk and the nasty remarks he keeps making, and his edit warring to retain any piece of crap content that is added as long as it is "positive" about organic food, and have asked him to contribute constructively. But when he threw down the gauntlet I felt he crossed the line. He has thrown AGF completely out the window and has not used any DR processes and has just degenerated into disrupting the article. It's time for him to go. At any point in this discussion he could have said, "hey, ok, i've been acting like a dick because i'm frustrated. sorry, I will use DR processes and chill out on Talk." he has come nowhere even near that - instead he is now making martyr-ish remarks. really it's time for him to be topic banned. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• Jytdog, I just don't see it. We've topic-banned plenty of people on this very board, but I don't see how Banner's behavior is a matter of reproach in the first place. I have skimmed the talk page and I may have missed a note or two, but what I expected to find there was some serious hardcore discussion of sources, and I don't see it. And the other thing I expected was maybe an RfC or two about the specific wording of this change or that, and I don't see that either. One could easily flip the tables and say that one editor is here being gang-tackled by a group of editors who also (note Kingofaces's linked edits) removed sourced content--and, one should add, this is supposed to be a two-way street: did you all seek dispute resolution? Finally, I don't see the personal attacks or the persistent focus on contributors, not content, that Banner is accused of. Can we not use our time more productively on the talk page? Have you considered 3O, or soliciting the opinion of some MEDRS experts? Later, Drmies (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for asking questions here Drmies (I'd rather see that than just support/opposes). I won't have time to respond to much else than this until later, but if you're referring to my three diffs up at my support post, you might have misread the situation. The content was originally unsourced by another user, and some discussion was already ongoing with multiple editors at the time before The Banner even added it, but there wasn't consensus that it was appropriate for the content well before my links. We basically were discussing a lot, but The Banner seemed to decide to just go ahead and add/revert the sources and content in. It's a little ways back (and a bit of read), but the conversation was here . I'll comment on the other things later tonight when I'm back if no one else addresses them by then. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi Drmies, we have been putting up with this for two years now:

• in November 2012 Banner first edited the article, leaping into an edit war (see the history here, around November 2012 to include sources like http://www.factorfizzle.com to support content on the safety and nutrient value of organic vs conventional food.
• Banner's first comment on the article Talk page was also back in November 2012, and he asked, "why MEDRS"
• his first response to the first answer went right to "Blatant nonsense"
• Actually I was wrong about no DR. Zad68 opened a mediation that failed back in December 2012 over all the ruckus and edit warring Banner caused then.
• there were efforts to frame an RfC (here and here that failed - and if you read those, you can see why.
• I got involved in late December and suggested a compromise - namely to handle "chemical" differences (of which some can actually be identified) separately from "health differences" from eating organic (none have been identified) (see here). That compromise has endured since then.
• but Banner has been railing against the use of MEDRS for health claims about organic food for two years now. Please walk in our shoes. And you are ignoring his dare when asked to strike yet another charge of whitewashing: "Why should I? You have already brought me to AN/I, so let us see how that ends up". So what will the community do? How do we live with this guy who cannot hear that we need to use MEDRS for health claims? (a two year case of IDHT) Those are not rhetorical questions - I am really asking for your advice. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting approach. Why don't you tell that I initiated a possible RfC twice but that "you guys" (to give a short summery of the different people involved) could not accept my proposal? And why is there constant trouble at Organic food about stuff being removed? Quite often it were others adding stuff and seeing it removed on grounds of "failing MEDRS" or the polular "WP:OR". Is it not possible that something is wrong with the tight application of MEDRS when so many people have trouble with it? Only this year (just 19 days old) it happened to three other users to see their edits reverted by mr. Jytdog. We are talking about food, but sources from agricultural colleges and universities are often rejected as unreliable of failing MEDRS. And scientific research was, according to you, unreliable due to the "messiness of reality" but still you accept some scientific research, especially when it is vague or negative about organic food. You should apply the same rules for all scientific research, not cherrypicking the best ones for your goal. The Banner talk 13:29, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

MEDRS is policy. If you don't like it, the appropriate response is to work to change the policy, not to ignore it and and attack the characters of those who apply it. That's pretty much the way it works here and at any other organization for that matter. If you decide the rules don't apply to you because you don't agree with them, sanctions usually follow. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you really that desperate to get me topic banned that you have to go back more then two years to find excuses? Sheesh. The Banner talk 01:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It's called "establishing a pattern". If it goes back two years, then the time period is not the deal-killer you're making it out to be; quite the opposite, in fact. --Calton | Talk 05:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

You can also look at it from the other side: they claim that the article is neutral and the use of MEDRS is valid. But there is a pattern of other people who also claim that the article is not neutral and that the application of MEDRS is at least heavy handed. The Banner talk 16:29, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Questions?. I'm a little surprised there hasn't been any action yet after this long considering we've had pretty clear personal attacks/civility issues and edit warring The Banner resorts to, especially when consensus is against them due to reliable sources, due weight, etc. Considering that, are there any questions about something that isn't clear about the specific behavior issues for other folks reading here? What exactly are people looking for to make a decisions one way or another?

The Banner just can't accept that their behavior in attempting to deal with content they disagree with is problematic and tries to claim they are being attacked instead in some fashion instead of trying to avoid the behavior problems. Past history (apparently 48 ANIs) shows this behavior is a persistent problem, so I'd like to see if we can get some kind of resolution so those of us at the article don't need to keep putting up with continued personal attacks and aspersions whenever we do something The Banner doesn't agree with. It seems we have more than enough for the proposed warning by Formerly 98 at a minimum, and a topic ban seems like a no-brainer for anyone who's had to deal with the behavior first hand at least, but what kind of information are uninvolved editors looking for? Hopefully answering that can bring this to a close if something is unclear. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - A topic ban is drastic and excessive for this incident on organic foods. The inserted statement at that article, while true, is vague in meaning, so it says little. I've also seen problems around MEDRS, as I have a history with it, and have seen other editors have a history with it. There were times where I believed there was false consensus, and eventually seen those articles grow more neutral. I've seen editors come and go, and had this belief there was NPOV, when they inserted something reliable, but it was removed because it wasn't a review, or they didn't have access to the review. The whitewashing remark looked like the perceived actions, and not necessarily a personal attack. I propose resolution to seek out a good source to include what organic has over natural foods. - Sidelight12 04:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

As has been mentioned before, this has been an ongoing issue, not an isolated incident just to make sure that is clear. From your response, it seems like you might have taken just a glance at a few things (completely understandable given the length of this). The reason The Banner is being discussed is because of their behavior, not a content dispute. Voicing a concern of whitewashing is one thing on a talk page (variable in appropriateness), but edit warring citing white washing by users rather than specific reliable source or weight concerns is a problem because it contributes to the history attacking editors. The snipes are very directed at editors and not content if you follow the diffs and the talk page discussions linked above, and below by Jytdog. What do you think is the best way to prevent the behavior issue regardless of dispute with that in mind? Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm just an outside observer here but I've been on the receiving end in the past of what felt like a tag-team effort by Jytdog, Formerly98 and KingofAces43. Spending a few days studying their edit histories is very informative. They, plus some other editors like Yobol(and a few others), seem to work as a team. That's my impression. And their edits tend to be beneficial to the big end of town, never the other way around. It could be coincidental, but thought it worth mentioning. Under these circumstances, Banner should receive the benefit of the doubt. MLPainless (talk) 13:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick note for anyone trying to determine consensus, but it would seem like MLPainless has a separate ax to grind here as they aren't commenting on The Banner's behavior in their opposition. They've run into frustration in tackling WP:FRINGE topics at Talk:Vani Hari and Talk:Sunset Yellow FCF somewhat recently, which is what their above comments are based on. The editors that have interacted with MLPainless are largely from over at WP:MED (e.g. ) when problems at those articles were discussed there, and those editors came to check things out.

As a science editor, I for one get very tired of people passionate about a topic casting aspersions like above (shills, white-washing, etc. from some other editors) whenever they don't agree. It's a distraction at best, which is why we're hoping for some kind of action in the case of The Banner to get them to stop the behavior. If they actually want to discuss content instead of lashing out, then that's what we're looking for. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's an example of what I mean: within 3 hours of my comment above, user "Formerly 98" went through my edit history and deleted/modified edits I made at Atrazine, edits that tended to raise some flags of concern about a hugely profitable pesticide. If you look at that article's history, you'll see him and Jytdog (and Kingfaces43) removing all possible comments that cast a negative light on Atrazine. Their editing is almost entirely exonerating of the chemical, despite numerous primary studies showing problems. Those studies, even when there are several, by different researchers, all pointing to a similar conclusion, are tagteam deleted on the grounds of "not a secondary or review study". And even when I included a review study, it was deleted on the grounds that the review study was "polemic".

Now I don't care that Misplaced Pages is being expunged of any trace of doubt about profitable chemicals, and that all evidence for organic food is being deleted under the guise of MEDRS, but I'm not going to resile from commenting that it is happening, and that it's a shame. I've also looked at Banner's history and I really cannot see what the fuss is about. He can be a bit gruff, but not to the point of topic banning. This seems like yet another content dispute in which the corporate view is being rammed through. MLPainless (talk) 23:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Sure The Banner has an obnoxious personal style, but that is not a crime on Misplaced Pages. I am more concerned about the allegations of corporate tage-team spamming. It takes two teams to edit war. IMHO it is the proposer who needs a good spanking for wasting our time here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 22:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Banner's history on the article and Talk

This is quite a wall of text. but it seems that folks aren't getting the history here. So here it is.

• article Banner came in hard and edit-warring, pretty much vanished, and has come back since the fall getting more and more nasty.

• 18 November 2012 adding content about nutrition based on primary source
• 22 November 2012 edit warring to retain content added by him and another editor
• 23 November 2012 continues edit warring
• 24 November 2012 continues edit warring
• 24 November 2012 edited out PSCI content on homeopathy and placed POV tag
• 25 Nov 2012 edit warred to keep tag in
• 29 Nov more of same
• 30 Nov nominated for deletion
• 30 Nov POINTy deletion of sources
• 2 Dec after bunch of crap content based on crap sources was reverted, Banner edit warred it back in this is the first of a pattern of doing this, as you will see
• 4 Dec more edit warring
• 4 Dec article protected due to EW
• 22 Dec taking out good source
• 23 Dec edit warring over that source
• 24 Dec edit warring over same source
• 24 Dec edit warring over same source
• 24 Dec article protected again
• 20 Jan 2013 my first slew of edits, after Talk discussion, that mostly resolved the issues that had been edit warred over
• 22 Mach constructive edit reverts vandalism/test edit
• 29 June constructive edit reverts addition of dubious content
• 3 Dec 2013 constructive edit reverted addition of dubious content
• 21 July 2014 back to edit warring over MEDRS
• (note in August another organic enthusiast showed up - an organic farmer new to WP, who started adding all kinds of unsourced (based on his authority) and badly sourced content)
• 20 AUg 2014 Banner edit wars to keep OR/unsourced content in article after it was reverted
• 25 Aug more of same
• 25 Aug 2014 more of same
• 28 Aug edits by me that resolved the issues until another editor validly challenged some it
• 18 Sept Banner edit wars over that, calling "censorship"
• 6 Jan 2015 [https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Organic_food&diff=641172464&oldid=641160886 banner returns to edit warring to revert removal of badly sourced content, with edit note: "The permanent habit of removing things is quite annoying..."
• 6 Jan edit warring to keep that content in, again (but with nice edit note)
• 6 Jan edit warring again now with nasty note again: to counter the whitewash and POV"

• talk page

Am just giving sections for the hell that broke loose when Banner 1st entered the article, with much vitriol on his part.

• 24 Nov 2012 Talk:Organic_food/Archive_2#Removal_of_.22Health_and_Safety.22_section Banner proposes just removing Health and Safety section.
• 26 Nov, Zad opens section to discuss Banner's tagging edit warring Talk:Organic_food/Archive_2#Details_of_specific_POV_issues.3F
• 4 Dec Montanabw opened discussion after article was locked for edit warring Talk:Organic_food/Archive_2#Article_protection
• All of archive 3 is just ugliness, all around Talk:Organic_food/Archive_3
• series of constructive comments when I entered and started moderating the dispute
• 30 Dec 2012 16:33 reasonable
• 31 Dec reasonable, helpful
• 1 Jan reasonable and reasonable
• 1 Jan back to "I have strong the impression that two editors due to their personal believes, misused WP:MEDRS to prevent anything positive in the article. Exactly the same is happening at Organic milk (and is locked too)."
• 2 Jan reasonable
• 2 Jan turning back to broadside against MEDRS, oy and more of same and more and more
• 2 Jan 22:25 very reasonable
• 2 Jan 22:13 sharp but reasonable and again
• 3 sliding back into unconstructive - conspiracies
• 3 Jan constructive and again
• 4 Jan - I proposed a compromise here
• 6 Jan 2013 2:19 nice comment on Talk after my sandboxed proposal
• 6 Jan 18:14 nice comment on proposal
• 7 Jan bitterness about past war
• 8 Jan in discussion about independent sources, attacks MEDRS again and brings up dread "citations on google scholar" argument
• 9 Jan 1:58 now saying MEDRS sources are corporate/corrupt
• 9 Jan 2013 series of reasonably constructive edits here
• 22 Jan 2013 03:37 constructive contribution on merge discussion here
• 22 Jan 3:55 constructive contribution' keeping wacky content out
• (note in August another organic enthusiast showed up - an organic farmer new to WP, who started adding all kinds of unsourced (based on his authority) and badly sourced content)
• 20 Aug 2014 20:26 makes cynical comment about MEDRS, interrupting efforts to teach new editor about sourcing and OR
• 20 Aug 20:38 more of same
• 20 Aug 20:57 more of same, arguing about OR to keep "positive" content in article
• 20 Aug 21:10 in response to my frustrated comment, accuses me of "strangling" the article
• 27 Aug 14:41 justifies his edit warring on the basis that "It is quite annoying to see everything positive removed in this article with every time other rather poor excuses."
• 27 Aug 15:10 just more personal attack in the midst of edit warring
• 28 Aug calls article "an anti-organic blog.... The agricultural viewpoint is nowhere in the article. And it are farmers and growers who produce organic food, not medical scientists."
• 29 Aug Bizarre rant: "To the point that even chemical comparisons have been removed as being health claims. Sometimes it gives me the eerie feeling that when Monsanto claims that Agent Orange is perfectly safe, it is believed straight away. But a claim that Agents Orange is dangerous, should be backed up with thousands of sources but 95% is rejected immediately as unreliable, for instance because the sources are Vietnamese."
• 29 Aug explains why he is talking about Agent Orange, finally
• 4 Nov complains again about MEDRS being "misued to keep valuable information out of the articles"
• 1 Dec claims we have a "keep it out of the article" policy
• 6 Jan 2015 admits he is edit-warring in unsourced content; accuses other of "silencing" and whitewashing"
• 6 Jan in respond to
• 6 Jan arguing over MEDRS
• 6 Jan discussing edit war after the fact, claiming other editor reverted "not with explanation" (there was here and here)
• 7 Jan the throwing down of the gauntlet
• 15 Jan trying to use my statement about "messiness" to fight the application of MEDRS, oy
• 16 Jan asked a semi-real, albeit POINTy question about something I said
• 17 Jan playing the martyr over ANI
• 19 Jan 2015 sarcasm & personal attack

There you go. You can see the whole thing there. Like I said - came in ugly. got frustrated, and now comes back mostly in WP:POINT-y ways, making personal attacks and disrupting discussion. Please topic ban him. I will settle for a strong warning to 1) stop discussing contributors and discuss content, with a topic ban the next time he does so; and 2) to use WP:DR tools to deal with his concerns instead of venting on the rest of us and edit warring. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a nice list of my edits. I guess each and everyone was reverted...

And it is interesting to see that Jytdog gets irritated when I used his own words "due to the messiness of reality" to question the content of the article. I am willing to believe the "due to the messiness of reality"-statement but than it has to be applied on all content, not just the inconvenient content. The Banner talk 00:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I note an interesting gap between end of August 2014 and beginning of November (after almost daily attention in August) in his attention to the article that corresponds to my issues with him. Starting September 1, he nominated a slew of articles for deletion, documented by @Tomwsulcer: here that I suggested were, as a package, in bad faith. I explained my concern on his talk page. Tomwsulcer also commented and was deleted. @Milowent: also tried to talk sense to him to deaf ears here. I laid it on thick here and his response was to delete it within 5 minutes. He went through the four stages of warning me in 6 minutes here to here, which is certainly not the way the system is intended but got to the point that by the technicality he could use the stop or get blocked threat (which he used repeatedly, see above). So I had an active, conscious vandal, deliberately trying to force his POV through AfD nominations. I challenged all his bad faith AfD nominations the proper way, by adding sources he deliberately failed to find from the first pages of Google when attacking these articles. I won every case, which clearly shows he is the one out of line. Originally I tried to show how each individual bad faith nomination was not a singular event but part of a package. Apparently according to user:Drmies, disclosing these facts, suggesting the offender should be stopped, are personal attacks. So I had to back off. I gave a few key notations in this summation for brevity, there's plenty more.

The general point is, he didn't calm down and stop being obnoxious, he only diverted his efforts toward me for a couple of months. When I backed off, he turned his attention back to the article in question. There is an obvious pattern of behavior here. He's a moving target causing trouble to multiple users wherever he goes and as I have said above, is in need of serious disciplinary action (or psychological help) beyond this one complaint. Somebody please go through his history (contact me and I'll be glad to guide you to the dirt I have, both my interactions and his conflicts with more than 30 other users) and make a reasonable determination if we want this person constantly making hostile edits and interactions as a representative, as a member of our team. Do we want him to take ownership of any article he chooses to get involved with? Do we want more 3RR violations, more civility disputes, more wikilawyering to force POV and points into articles of his choosing? It is obvious even from his comments here, he will use any tactic and tool possible to bully his "opponents" to get his way. If you just topic ban him on this one topic, it will not solve the problem, he will just take his show elsewhere. After he has assaulted another editor with his barrage of tactics, they might get to the point that they find their way back to ANI with him and we do this dance again. Trackinfo (talk) 11:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I can't be bothered to find the AfDs I was referring to in my warning--what was problematic was the personal attacks you made in those AfDs. "Personal attack" is a matter of tone, and I think you have a problem finding the right tone every now and then. Drmies (talk) 02:52, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact I was trying to ignore your silly quest to get me blocked. I tried to ignore your personal attacks and harassment. But yu won't give up. And accusing me of a bias against articles related to pageants is not true. There is clearly a problem but you seem to ignore it. And the problem there is, amongst others, this: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Mrdhimas/Archive. And yes, I have send your attack page to MfD (Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Trackinfo/sandbox/Banner). How long do you want to go on and on and on? The Banner talk 05:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to note above that I made a good faith effort to discuss this issue headon with Banner and with the new editor I mentioned above, Redddbaron (a farmer who is new to WP and its sourcing guidelines). That discussion is here: here] It sadly devolved into personal attacks. Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

It would have been better when you offered this link: Talk:Organic food/Archive 5#concerns about bias...., an interesting story of not listening to the real content problem. You are willing to listen to everything, except anything that questions the application of MEDRS and flawed neutrality of the article due to the strict application of MEDRS. You talk about everything here, except the content problems. The Banner talk 05:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, the focus of this ANI is your behavior. There are many ways to resolve content disputes which you have not attempted to use for over two years now - you have reduced yourself to making disruptive, heckling, SOAPBOX comments like this and disruptive reverts in the article like this. Your contributions have not been constructive for a long time now. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

You are bluntly ignoring the fact that the talk page of Organic food is now filled with accusations of the article being POV. The behaviour that you dislike so much, is nothing more than me keeping pointing at how POV the article is. Instead of doing something about the POV, an opinion shared by many others, you just try to silence somebody you never managed to silence before. The fact that you even try to close the talk page of organic food for discussion is quite serious: see here. The Banner talk 16:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

requesting close

This has gone on long enough and we have crept to the top of this page. Can an admin please review and close? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I just requested a close at the "request close" board here. Jytdog (talk) 15:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Improper closure

I am stating my objection to the above closure as improper. The closing administrator has been involved in this issue for months. This is also the same administrator who decided to delete content I collected that would be relevant to read about this case. Per the procedure I have been able to find; I have given notification to the administrator to deaf ears and am now seeking to find whatever the proper procedure is for having this reviewed. Trackinfo (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Many of the diffs which where described as personal attacks, to me, seemed too mild to be called personal attacks. However, I can see the frustration by the Banner, and his description of acts. Is it to topic ban people because of little tolerance for a different pov? There are a lot of people with similar pov's but they come in one at a time, to an established wiki community who are more eager at wikipedia. If that diff is about an involved editor, it seems like drmies was a mediator, instead of taking a personal involvement. If someone else wants to close or review, then they should, the more eyes, the better. - Sidelight12 03:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

You should also keep in mind that Trackinfo is already engaged in a long personal campaign to get me blocked or banned as he highlights so friendly in his own comments above. The Banner talk 07:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely. I want a serious review of The Banner's history. There has been one administrator, and one administrator only who has stood up as a protector for this serial troublemaker, and by this act of closure he has again prevented a serious review of The Banner's activities. My own behavior "problem" is only trying to scream loud enough for some serious administrator to actually look at this guy. Look at his history. Look at how many other people he has offended, not just me. Alone, I'm at my limit of being able to protect content. Alone I cannot sound a louder warning. I'm trying to connect the dots for you. There is a pattern of behavior to look at. We have invested a month trying to deal with just one situation out of so many he causes. And so far, not one administrator has made any serious effort to deal with this disciplinary situation. We deserve a rational decision, not a closure to make this drop off the ANI list. Do you want to encourage him to continue to behave this way? If you don't do something about this, he will be back. He will be aggressively defensive, with reverse accusations and we will waste another month. ], , , , , , , , , explaining Trackinfo (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have no problem with Trackinfo's request; I have the feeling it will simmer like the last one. It seems pretty obvious to me that there was only one way for this thread to end. Jytdog, what do you think? You can guess nothing good was going to come out of it. I have faith in your judgment, though you are of course involved as well. :) Look, you all have a longstanding conflict and you should find a better way to solve it than try for a topic ban--and I wish you all good luck with it. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sidelight12 for the Nth time, the ANI action was not about Banner's POV to which he is entirely entitled; it was not about content - it was about his 2 year pattern of personal attacks and disruptive editing, and his failure to use WP's DR processes with regard to his unhappiness with the application of PAG in the article. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for asking Drmies. I am OK with the warning you gave to Banner. If he refuses to heed it, that will be helpful if we have to come back here (and I very much hope we don't have to) The only thing I ask (as I already did on your Talk page) is that you strike the "enjoy ganging up on" piece of your close which attributes bad motivation to me. I like working out differences with editors who AGF and work within PAG; I do not enjoy this kind of conflict in WP - trying to work with editors who refuse to assume good faith and instead make personal attacks, and who do not base their discussion on PAG, are the things that drive me away from articles. To be frank I am approaching burnout from that stuff. In any case I would appreciate it if you would strike that. If on the other hand you really think I have a pattern of WP:GANG or other bad behavior and you really see that justified in the discussion above, I would appreciate you telling me that directly and cleanly, but tossing that into your close seems... well, flippant. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, I don't mind doing that all, though I will tell you that I certainly didn't mean you in the "some of you". Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Jytdog (talk) 16:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll just pipe in and say Jytdog hit the nail on the head here. POV isn't a major concern here, and we can work with that in terms of a content dispute. That's never been the issue for those suggesting dispute resolution. It's when someone starts sniping about other editors, etc. in the process of trying to reinsert their preferred version (or not even suggesting content at all) that we get into behavior problems that detract from the project no matter how you look at it. All that any of us actually working on the page are asking for is simply for the behavior to stop, and that doesn't require a topic ban if The Banner would simply stop. Each individual edit may not seem egregious, but we’ve been trying to describe WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior where one of the hallmarks of that is repeated seemingly minor misbehavior over a longer period of time (especially to an outside observer). That’s why the breadth of diffs presented is as important as assessing the how problematic a single diff was.

In terms of Drmies, involvement, I generally consider them pretty even handed. I was a little concerned about the involvement aspect where Drmies stated they consider The Banner a “net positive”, though that wouldn't be enough concern for me to reopen this conversation. I’m glad Drmies said at most of what they did in closing at least. However, I would like to be sure that we aren’t supposed to just tolerate The Banner’s behavior because the user is a net positive in other areas. That’s far from accusing Drmies of any wrongdoing here though as I would just like to see a framework for either handling the behavior issue now or in the future if it continues. I’d hope a warning would suffice so we can move on. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Request template namespace topic ban for Sardanaphalus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been increasingly concerned about Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs)'s template editing lately. His template editing was recently mentioned in an ANI thread, after which I removed his template editor right. However, I've found that the problems aren't limited to protected templates. While most of his template edits are fine, a significant minority have problems, and given Sardanaphalus's fast rate of editing and tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages, this has resulted in quite a large build-up of templates that need to be fixed. I have noticed the following patterns in Sardanaphalus's template editing:

• Logic errors and bad parameter names that could have been spotted with better testing. For example, a wrong parameter name at infobox company and a missing includeonly tag in infobox shopping mall.
• Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)
• Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable.
• Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example Template:Semisub (TfD) and Template:End&startflatlist (TfD).
• Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see this edit to Template:Collapsible option, the corresponding edits to Template:Mono, and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option. Sometimes increases in complexity are fine, but I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion.
• Changing the function of parameters based on other parameters in the template, e.g. and the edits to Template:Mono linked above. Once such a parameter scheme is added, it is hard to fix, as you need to go through every transclusion of a template and check that it doesn't use the new scheme, or add a special tracking category to find the transclusions that need changing. Again, schemes like this can be useful sometimes, but Sardanaphalus tends to add them without discussion in places where they aren't needed.

All of this wouldn't be such a problem if Sardanaphalus took on board advice he was given after problems with his template editing were brought up. However, he tends to revert rather than using the talk page, and sometimes resorts to edit warring to keep his changes in templates. Most importantly, advice on his talk page doesn't seem to have resulted in any change of behaviour. For example, after this thread that I started on his talk page last week, he is still making edits with the exact same problems. I don't see much improvement after other recent threads either, and I see quite a few complaints going back in his talk page history.

I'd like to propose a topic ban from the template namespace for Sardanaphalus, to prevent further bad template edits and to allow us to start cleaning up the old edits without having to worry about cleaning up new edits at the same time. — Mr. Stradivarius 06:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

1. I understand that its removal without warning is a prerogative, but, given that our interactions before January were<aside>if I recall correctly</aside>of a friendly, fruitful and collaborative nature, why did you choose not to contact me before revoking the template-editor status  during  the ANI thread you mention<aside>a thread that was about  another  editor's actions</aside>? And then, despite my attempts to reach out to you about the situation, why did you choose not to contact me (privately, if you'd felt it more appropriate) before launching this proposal<aside>especially after this allusion</aside>?
2. "While most of his template edits are fine..."
    This seems to be the single, passing acknowledgement as regards my template contributions overall. Do you realise how one-sided your characterisations and proposal might otherwise appear?
3. "...given Sardanaphalus's tendency to not get consensus on template talk pages..."
    Before, during or after some editing..? And attempts to work toward consensus elsewhere<aside>i.e. less publicly; when, for example, I'm trying to handle incivility</aside> don't or can't count..?
4. "Logic errors..."
    Given the examples you provide, do you not also make the occasional mistake<aside>yes,  occasional</aside>?
5. "...bad parameter names..."
    Such as<aside>in the context of templates such as {{Navbox}}, {{Sidebar}} and {{Infobox}}</aside> some of those provided for e.g. {{hlist}}, {{flatlist}}, etc..?
6. "Creation of template redirects and large-scale editing of articles to use the redirect name, bypassing the requested move process. (This is the matter that was discussed in the previous ANI thread.)"
   1. Why is your interpretation that of a desire to bypass process? Does it strike you as good faith to choose such an interpretation?
   2. Given tools such as Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser, what do you take as "large-scale editing"?
   3. The matter discussed in the previous ANI thread was  another editor's  actions.
7. "Formatting errors, making text or tables bunched up or unreadable":
   1.   I agree that this was a mistake – which is why I (tried to) correct it (), but was given this.
   2.   I see no bunched up / unreadable material here (and at 1024 by 768).
   3.   Ditto (ii) (if the deleted template still existed).
8. "Creation of unnecessary template forks, for example":
   1. Template:Semisub (TfD)  How does the rationale presented at the TfD render this template  unnecessary ..? It may've been in need of refinement, but why any more unnecessary than other templates that adjust positioning, etc..?
   2. Template:End&startflatlist (TfD)  This template was a one-template replacement for occasions where two consecutive templates were in use, but, as this can be avoided without compromising presentation, I had/have no objection to its deletion. Anyone with access to its history should find it saw very little use.
   Are most of the templates I've initiated "unnecessary"..?
9. "Adding unnecessary subtemplates and parameters to templates. This makes processing templates slower, which in turn increases the time taken to save pages. For example, see...":
   1. "...this edit to Template:Collapsible option..." As indicated in the edit summary for this edit<aside>"Update from sandbox (parentheses per talkpage request)"</aside> this was to fulfil a request to restore a version of the template found to be more useful.
   2. "...the corresponding edits to Template:Mono..." I don't understand what is meant by "corresponding edits" here. What is so "bad" about them..?
   3. "...and several additions of the {{{1}}} parameter to navboxes to use the parameters added to Collapsible option..." Similarly, what is so "bad" about enabling this convenience/shortcut for the lone parameter that<aside>so far as I've seen</aside> plain/regular/standard {{Navbox}}es usually have had made configurable at transclusion..? The idea and practice isn't due to me and isn't limited to this template. If this particular instance of the practice, though, makes template processing so much slower, I've yet to come by or to've been given some insight how/why – i.e. something more than statement or assertion.
   4. "...I'm concerned that this is being done on a large scale without any discussion."

• Support topic ban. I had noticed that Sardanaphalus has the wrong approach to editing templates before this report. A minor example is seen in the history at Template:Hegelianism where Sardanaphalus is editing the live template as if it were a contentious article which requires edit warring and pointy edit summaries to overcome POV pushers. Bold editing is one thing, but templates really do require care and collaboration. Johnuniq (talk) 08:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Hello. I don't believe we've interacted before. I suppose it's a pity that here has become the first time. Given your first statement, did you decide not to say hello and indicate your concern because you thought my approach was "wrong" but not that "wrong" / "bad" / etc; and/or because you felt I wouldn't respond well; and/or...?
2. Do you believe the example you give (Template:Hegelianism) represents my usual nature, activity and interactivity?

• Support - Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive, but he has trouble collaborating. He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes. When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods. His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens. He uses and creates templates like {{!-!}} and {{!-!!}} that are completely redundant to wikimarkup and make table/template editing exponentially harder, yet at the same time acuses experienced template editors of "thinking like progrmammers". I would be a good thing if Sardanaphalus would experience Misplaced Pages more as a reader... on small screens. Or at the least, he could do with some coaching. -- ] {{talk}} 09:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

{{Divbox |plain

| 3 = Indictee's observations / questions (C)

1. "Sardanaphalus can seem quite productive..."
    I can imagine Edokter as quite productive.
2. "...but he has trouble collaborating."
    Mistaken – as, for instance, I believe Mr. Stradivarius would testify (and, for instance, Tryptofish has testified below). I've become all too aware of circumstances in which Edokter has trouble collaborating.
3. "He has very strong ideas about how things should be done and as such, he doesn't take ctiticism very well. That makes it very hard to fix his mistakes."
    If so, I've been experiencing someone with considerably stronger ideas about how things "should" be done and, as such, doesn't... and, at this point, I suspect it's best to move on:
4. "When he does acknowledge an (obvious) error, he will often revert to his own established methods."
    I can't tell what this means, or is meant to mean. Does it suggest, for instance, that what Edokter sees as an (obvious) error is something he thinks I<aside>or any/everyone</aside> sees, would see or should see as an (obvious) error..?
5. "His layout always based to fit on his own screen (1680 wide), and in such a way that it becomes illegible on smaller screens."
    Mistaken again – as far, at least, as a reduction to 1024 by 768. That doesn't mean, though, that

• Comment. Please take a look at User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 24#Template:Aquarium. Not too long ago, I reverted an edit by Sardanaphalus at that template, and they reached out to me at my user talk, and our subsequent discussion was very collaborative and improved the template. As a single anecdote, it seems to me to be contrary to what I'm reading here. I do however recognize that Sardanaphalus does an awful lot of template editing and that this is something where consensus is very important. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
  • He used to inquire about my reverts, and I would answer best I could, even though he should have brought up any issue on their respective template talk pages instead. However, any advice I give him is simply ignored or very soon forgoten. -- ] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support Sardanaphalus has a habit of reformatting template code in such a manner that makes comparison by diff very difficult. Consider this edit from earlier today: the effective change is the addition of two {{{colheaderstyle|}}} but whilst the first of those is obvious, the second is disguised by the newline wrapped in <!-- --> markers which makes it look like some code has been removed and some very different code has been added. It has reached the point where I have refused to process their protected edit requests because it is so difficult to determine if their desired "minor" change truly is minor. More at Template talk:Shortcut#Protected edit request on 4 December 2014, Template talk:Information#Navbox version and Template talk:Div col#Code layout. They also nag me for not processing edits that I disagree with, see User talk:Redrose64#Template:Information, User talk:MSGJ#Advice, please..? and (by proxy) User talk:Edokter#Template talk:Div col. Sometimes it seems that a strange effect somewhere is the result of a Sardanaphalus edit - but it takes some time to trace it, see Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)/Archive 132#Linebreaks in infoboxes. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
  • You may also note from today's editing that his use of the sandbox is not very effective; he seemingly moves every edit to the live template immediately, negating the purpose of the sandbox. If the transclusion count is high, this will unnecessarily strain the job queue, and in cases where he does not use the sandbox at all, may introduce disruptive errors on live articles. -- ] {{talk}} 17:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. Sardanaphalus has asked some questions at both my user talk page and Mr. Stradivarius' talk page, and I would prefer that no final decision be made here until Sardanaphalus has responded here at ANI. At the moment, I'm neutral about the ban proposal, pending what I might hear subsequently. One possibility that I think we might want to put on the table is a topic ban from editing templates, but not from editing template talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

  I agree that editing the template talk namespace should be allowed. Thinking about it, I would extend that to allowing the editing of template sandboxes as well, as without editing template sandboxes it is hard to make effective template edit requests. I'm also wondering whether editing /doc pages in the template namespace should be allowed, but I note that there has been some controversy about Sardanaphalus's editing there; see this section on his talk page, for example. — Mr. Stradivarius 23:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

  I looked at that discussion you linked to, and before I say what I think, I had better stipulate that I'm mostly ignorant about the technicalities being discussed there. However, just as a matter of two editors communicating with one another, I'm not seeing anything that bad about the way that Sardanaphalus replied to Edokter. After reading Edokter's reply to my first post just above, I wondered why the two of us had had such differing experiences, and it now seems to me that it takes two to tango. Anyway, I'm receptive to a more limited ban that prevents editing templates and template documentation, but permits template talk page edits and edits of draft templates in sandbox space – but above all, I'm eager to hear back from Sardanaphalus. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

  I should clarify that I never intended my proposed topic ban to include the template talk namespace - while it's related to the template namespace, technically it is not a part of it. Regarding Edokter, I agree that he could have handled that interaction better. I have noticed Edokter becoming increasingly frustrated with Sardanaphalus over the last few months, and this frustration is clearly evident in his recent interactions with him. It is not surprising to me that Sardanaphalus has reacted negatively to Edokter's complaints. However, Edokter is very knowledgeable about MediaWiki technical matters (much more than I am), and the technical points that he has brought up in discussions with Sardanaphalus are sound. I would say that his frustration is a symptom, rather than the cause. — Mr. Stradivarius 00:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

  I've been thinking about the proposed topic ban scope, and I've come to the conclusion that we should allow Sardanaphalus to edit /doc pages for templates that have been updated due to edit requests that he makes, but not in other circumstances. The reason is pretty simple - after a template has been changed, it is often necessary to update the documentation with details of new parameters or new functionality, and it seems overly bureaucratic to require Sardanaphalus to do this on another page and then have another editor copy the documentation over. However, I don't think that this should be extended to allowing editing of all /doc pages unconditionally, as Sardanaphalus has been known to go systematically through /doc pages and change the formatting, and some of those edits have been contentious, as discussed above. — Mr. Stradivarius 00:42, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment)Template:Cue I've had concerns about this user's ability to edit templates for some time as well but would only support a topic ban if the following is considered: I've seen some of their edits to templates, and they certainly have the logical ability to figure out how to properly do it and only lack the patience of making sure that it is right in the sandbox and making sure the changes are what the community wants in cases where a change might be objected to. As many may know, I've had issues and struggled with some of these things myself in the past and some would argue on my behalf that I have grown from them. Telling this user they can't talk about templates at all may very well drive a capable editor away, and that's harmful to the encyclopedia. I'd suggest that the closer of this discussion consider allowing Sardanaphalus the option of obtaining a mentor that is knowledgeable in templates and code and willing to be a middleman / filter for Sardanaphalus' ideas and changes. I'm fairly certain that the community would not see me fit for the job, and I respect that opinion despite not entirely agreeing with it, but I ask they give him a chance to find a mentor that is suitable to the community if he wishes to not be entirely topic banned from templates. Thank you for hearing me. — {{U|Technical 13}} 21:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Now I say this with some regret. I am convinced Sardanaphalus is a good faith editor with intelligence and technical knowledge. But I am also convinced that he is sloppy in his work, has difficulty collaborating, and has technical blindspots, particularly with resolution. While I support this TBAN I would like the following provisos to be considered: to only be restricted from templates not created by him, to have no restrictions to template talk or sandboxes, and to be allowed to collaborate with Technical 13 to suggest changes which are then carried out by Technical 13. --Mrjulesd (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• I largely agree with what Mrjulesd just said. It seems to me that it has been long enough for Sardanaphalus to post a substantive response, and I take the fact that it has not happened yet as reason for me to not wait any longer and Support a limited ban. Because templates appear on multiple pages, edits to templates require a reasonable amount of care and consensus. An editor who has this much difficulty responding here needs some boundaries with respect to editing templates, but it does not have to be a "punishment". I, too, trust Technical 13 to serve informally as a mentor; for that matter, I would also trust Mr. Strad. I would like the ban to apply only to edits of templates (created by anyone) and to template documentation. No edits there. But edits would be unrestricted at template talk pages and draft/sandbox templates, and any editor in good standing (not just the mentor) could agree to implement changes to templates and documentation. And I sincerely wish Sardanaphalus happy editing going forward. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

  Since my comment above, Sardanaphalus has posted at some length at my user talk, and also posted the two sets of questions to editors above. I've read all of that, carefully and with an open mind, and my opinion is not changed, because what I'm seeing is a combination of having difficulty accepting constructive criticism and having difficulty communicating effectively with other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Working toward an alternative outcome

Hello. I have been trying to work out a promising way to contribute to this thread, so I apologise if this initial post appears belated. Mr. Stradivarius endorsed the idea that linking/copying the conversation I started on his talkpage should be a good first step, so, with the exception of its Template:Tnfs, I've quoted it below. Thoughts, please..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

== Request ==

Regarding your proposal: Though I've found a certain amount of information about this situation, I've yet to divine or find advice as regards what's considered an effective way for the... indictee? to proceed. I'd appreciate, therefore, your advice/assistance.

Sincerely,
Sardanaphalus (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

As Tryptofish advised you, you should post a comment at the ANI thread. If you don't comment there, it will probably lower other editors' opinions of how well you collaborate with others. For things to go as well as possible, you need to a) show that you understand what the complaints about you are, b) accept responsibility for the issues brought up that are your fault (apologising helps here), and c) show that you are committed to improving your actions in the areas that you accept responsibility for (an action plan will help here). Though I started the thread about you, I don't actually want to see you topic banned if it can be avoided. I started the thread because I thought that a topic ban might be the only way to get you to change your behaviour after you seemingly ignored advice from myself and others. Perhaps this is all just a communication problem and can be sorted out through discussion - if that's the case, then so much the better. — Mr. Stradivarius 13:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for this message. In short: yes, I feel there's been an accumulation of misunderstandings, misinterpretations and unfinished conversations, some of which<aside>perhaps many of which</aside> have been prompted, I think, because of my attempts to take advice on board. I'm heartened to read that you don't want to see me topic (namespace?)-banned if it can be avoided; this is what the question at the end of a follow-up to the above that I'd been drafting had addressed ("...is there any kind of outcome other than the one proposed that you'd prefer to see / like to see..?").

Do you think, therefore, that linking and/or copying the contents of this thread to the ANI thread<aside>to see if/how anyone following it responds</aside> is a good initial post for me to make there..?

With my thanks again, Sardanaphalus (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

PS Despite, for instance, LT910001's own userpage, this may also be timely.

Yes, I think that linking to this conversation as part of your initial post would be a good idea. You should also try and address my points a, b and c above. But you shouldn't make the post too long - the thread will go smoothest if it is a conversation rather than a series of walls of text. Also, you should comment there soon, preferably today - the longer you leave it, the more it looks to other editors like you are ignoring the thread. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• I'm required elsewhere for a while now, so will make the post sometime later today. Thanks for your confirmation. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

There's really nothing for the rest of us to add here. What is needed is for you to say whatever you are going to say. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm still not confident about what's best for that to be. Given Mr. Stradivarius's points (a) to (c) above, I'm thinking I should work through what's been said in the main part of this thread in order to demonstrate, I suppose, that I don't "understand what the complaints about are"<aside>more accurately, to demonstrate that I feel their basis isn't as clear-cut or perhaps as well-founded as it may otherwise seem</aside> but I think that's likely to generate one of these "walls of text"...? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The general sense I get from this comment is that, in essense, you do not agree with the complaints. In other words, you feel you are doing nothing wrong. That is unfortunate, because that may indicates there is no intent to change on your part. What we are asking of you is to adhere to some basic principles that we expect from anyone editing Misplaced Pages. One of these principles is to take advice from others instead of fighting them and perceiving criticism on your edits as personal attacks. You have been given lots of advice on technical matters, but it appears to have fallen on deaf ears, as you generally do not show any change in editing. Also, if you feel you need a 'wall of text' to address these complaints, that is also not a good sign. So at this point I think a topic ban on Template:-space (meaning live templates only, not including template talk pages, /sandbox and /testcases pages), combined with some other technical restrictions, and coaching, is what is needed to improve the quality of your edits. Accepting a coach would be the only way to lift this ban in the future. Before deciding this, we'd like to hear your view (as concise as possible) on these complaints on your edits. I emphasized "edits" because I want to stress we are not discussing you as a person. -- ] {{talk}} 16:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Does anyone endorse the train of thought in this message's first half..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

It all boils down to...

...this, I think: no more than a handful of editors<aside>and one in particular</aside> thinking, I guess, that I understood something, or that they'd explained something to me<aside>or "advised" me</aside> while, in fact, I didn't understand something, or they hadn't explained something, or mistook statements<aside>or assertions</aside> for explanation. And, as a consequence, despite "most of his template edits fine", it looks like these few editors will have someone banned<aside>not blocked or whatever, but banned</aside> from a namespace – not a topic within a namespace, but a namespace. Does all this mean I've made mistakes and/or misjudgements? Definitely. Do I apologise for doing so? Absolutely. I hope that's not too concise or robust. Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the above statement helps at all. There is consensus in this thread to ban you from the namespace. The only thing which may possibly prevent this going ahead is to voluntary agree to a strict set of restrictions, such as the following:

• You accept that there are significant concerns about your current template editing.
• You adhere to WP:1RR in the template namespace, and seek consensus for all edits that are reverted before attempting to re-apply. You fully test all changes in a sandbox before deploying.
• You discuss all changes that introduce new functionality or new parameters to a template, and seek consensus for them.
• You avoid hard-coding any styles into templates.
• You avoid making cosmetic changes to the code which do not affect the output of the template. Examples include changing template calls to redirects, or fiddling with the whitespace.

Would you be willing to abide by these restrictions (and agree to be blocked if you do not)? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

That is a good list, but it misses the essence of the problem. No one should edit live templates by trial-and-error, and templates are not like articles where users edit war with snarky edit summaries. Sardanaphalus should use a sandbox to perform experiments, and should only transfer the result to the main template after thorough testing with the sandbox. Take a look at the responses from Sardanaphalus above—there is no acknowledgment of a problem, and there is no indication of a willingness to learn. A topic ban is the only reasonable outcome because technical people working on templates are not willing to deal with disruption—it's just not what is expected on the technical side. Johnuniq (talk) 11:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Note that MSGJ said these rules could "possibly prevent" a ban, if Sardanaphalus would agree to them. I'm interested to see if he does. But if he does not, then a ban on editing live templates is the most likely outcome. -- ] {{talk}} 13:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

While this doesn't mitigate the above, I would like to point out he has made a better statement at my talk page . But I can't understand why he hasn't said something similar here, but I hope it is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

•   Because, Mrjulesd, despite common sense and some research, I still believe some even-handedness might prevail. If anyone is still reading, no, that doesn't mean I think I'm "right"; it doesn't mean I think I haven't done anything "wrong"; it doesn't mean I don't think there're any problems ...... but it does mean that this narrow, selective mischaracterisation and misrepresentation of the (template) contributions I make needs to stop ...... It paints a distorted, one-sided picture of these contributions and misinterprets their intent. It also ignores the incivility ...... as a result of an inability to distinguish assertion from explanation or advice

(Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC))

Close?

It doesn't look like there is much benefit in keeping this any longer, and consensus has been formed. I suggest we close this shortly with the following conclusion. Hopefully this will be a temporary ban and Sardanaphalus finds other avenues to be productive in the meantime — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Sardanaphalus (talk · contribs · logs) is indefinitely restricted from making any edits to the template namespace in the English Misplaced Pages with the following exceptions:

• Template talk pages;
• Templates sandboxes, test cases or other "non live" subtemplates used for testing;
• Documentation pages, but only as a direct result of a change to a template's code requested by Sardanaphalus.

• I have just been able to log in again. I will now try to reconstruct what I can recall of the post I was working on that was meant to precede the above. It includes notice taken of the railroading that seemed<aside>and now appears confirmed</aside> to've begun. Of course there is "consensus": it's much easier to make noises when being one-sided, negative and having an axe to grind. Sardanaphalus (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  PS This also denies my completing the response to Mr. Stradivarius' original post on which I've been working and, in turn, his considered response.
  • The factor that prompted this ban is not the occasional mistake; it is a combination of a failure to communicate and tendency to dismiss complaints by rationalizing your own actions. The main objective is to force you to communicate your ideas before implementing them... and to learn how to deal with failed ideas, because there lies the true problem. So I endorse a close. -- ] {{talk}} 09:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support close and restrictions as proposed here. I've been advocating for giving him the opportunity to present his side of the argument, but I think that by now that opportunity has been more than adequate. At this point, it no longer matters whether the prolongation results from intentional delay, or from WP:COMPETENCE, but the community is entitled to wrap this up and move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• With regret, I formally announce the editing restriction proposed above, and have recorded it in the appropriate place. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Lachlan Foley indiscriminate mass article tagging and WP:DISRUPT

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Lachlan Foley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

User:Lachlan Foley is out of control.

In just the last five days, LF has tagged about 400 album and song articles with music notability tags without any apparent research or examination of the articles themselves, many of which actually show they were hit songs or records, like with Blur's #5 UK charting Charmless Man and On Your Own (Blur song) song articles. . He seems to have a particular dislike of live albums - 17 out of 22 Gary Numan's live albums articles has been tagged by him as well two Roxy Music albums.

Many of the other album articles he threw notability tags on are of those by iconic artists such as Radiohead and Brian Eno.

Looking just previous to this latest round of mass tagging, I see he tagged Roxy Music #5 charting Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article with a notability tag.

Just have a look at his contributions page and you'll see.

Any kind of attempted reasoning with him will be met with edit warring as demonstrated by his block for 3RR about two weeks ago. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive267#User:Info4allthepeople reported by User:Lachlan Foley (Result: Submitter blocked).

This editor needs to be kept in check.--Oakshade (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I've done nothing wrong, so I have no need to explain myself, but I will say that if you had also bothered to look a cursory glance at the constructive improvements I have made to hundreds of articles over the period of five years, you'd think twice about calling my tagging "indiscriminate". You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me. Lachlan Foley (talk) 09:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Mass tagging of hundreds of song and album articles, many of which were top 10 or top 20 hits demonstrates you were indiscriminate in your tagging. You can't erase history as the diffs are there forever. Glad you brought up the Joy Division album Preston 28 February 1980 article as that's yet another example in which you failed to do any research and threw a notability tag on. It seems you're angry about that tag being removed and being called on your WP:DISRUPT violating behavior. --Oakshade (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I recall this user sending dozens and dozens of similar articles to AfD and IIRC, they've all been kept. Recommend that LF raises notability on the WP:ALBUM talkpage first before tagging more articles. Lugnuts 18:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Given this is a longtime ongoing pattern, I think a topic ban might be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 02:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC) AMENDMENT: Given the behavior demonstrated by Cavarrone below with multiple topics, it seems more than just a topic ban would be in order. --Oakshade (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Just drawing to your attention that User:Lachlan Foley has tagged almost all of the Jebediah releases with notability tags even though everyone of them are charting songs and contain independent verifiable references. Until checking his talk page I was unaware that this editor has a past history of this disruptive behaviour. Concur with previous comments that this appears to be an ongoing pattern that should be actively discouraged.Dan arndt (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Does this constitute vandalism? See Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Abuse of tags, and there are literally hundreds of wrong tags, it's hard to believe good faith. --Mrjulesd (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Def. a case of WP:DE. Lugnuts 08:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

And for Jebediah I see on the #6 charting Kosciuszko (album) article, LF removed all the professional review sources and then tagged it for notability on the next edit. Wow. --Oakshade (talk) 08:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• I remember a similar incident back in June 2012 with the same editor indiscriminately mass-tagging for notability hundreds of films, including films by Otto Preminger, Oliver Stone, Ernst Lubitsch, Wes Craven, Mario Bava, almost an half of the whole filmography of Roger Corman and more, see User_talk:Lachlan_Foley/Archive_1#Stop_please and User_talk:Lachlan_Foley/Archive_1#warning. Probably a topic ban from tagging articles for notability could be in order. Cavarrone 00:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Really could use an Admin weighing in on this and for this to have a definitive end.--Oakshade (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, they're too busy with backslapping and waiting for their spines to develop to help with a real issue. Lugnuts 18:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Something needs to be done. Just in the last day, even after all the agreement of his disruptive behavior here by all editors, he's tagged multiple charting song and album articles with notability tags - examples are - the latter of which, Found That Soul, was a top 10 hit.--Oakshade (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Still continuing with the tagging spree. Admins, time to step up. Lugnuts 14:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have not checked his recent rapidfire tagging, but the time rate of the tags (one tag or more/a minute) is well below of a minimum standard it is reasonable to expect by a responsible, non-bot, good-faith reviewer who analyzes sourcing and contents of the articles. In spite of warnings and previous incidents, I don't see any sign he intends to change his attitude, nor he apparently wants to engage in a discussion to explain his actions, so I strongly suggest a topic ban from tagging articles, especially as the tagbombing appears to be a dead end for LF (even considering previous incidents, I don't see any intention to nominate such articles from deletion). Even if LF could be sometimes incidentally right, this mass-tagging is unhelpful and requires a lot of time (and sometimes stress) from the community to review and fix his edits, and frankly everyone has better things to do than loosing time behind some improper tags (LF included). Cavarrone 16:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin needed here. Lugnuts 10:49, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

He does not change his attitude very easily. When the Everything Must Go incident went down, he was just removing information that I added without any explanation. I tried to explain that there was nothing wrong with the information, and there wasn't, the information had reliable references, but he just kept reverting my edits, and eventually reported me for 3RR, that was the moment I tried not to edit the articles where he made changes, so I would not have to deal with the process of getting reported. Just wanted to share my opinion because I felt really cheerless when I was reported because of an article where I was adding valid information with references, and when I tried to figure out the reason for his removal of the infomration in question, he reported me. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 14:15, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

When User:Rhanas attempted to explain to LF these unconstructive edits, his response was, "How dare you, you don't have a clue about what I'm doing. I am improving these articles and if you have a problem with that take your frustration somewhere else." He just doesn't get it. --Oakshade (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I really tried to explain, some of his edits are really meaningless and not necessary at all, he changes everything from one moment to the other when there is no reason to, I really don't get his edits.Rhanas (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Admin action is needed

Any chance of an admin actually doing something here? This has been here for more than a week. Lugnuts 10:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

C'mon you chocolate fireguards. Pull your fingers out. Lugnuts 13:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Update

In the last few hours, despite this ANI, LF in just a 20 minute period tagged over 20 song and album articles for notability including multiple charting songs like Pandemonium (song) and Requiem (Killing Joke song) and every non-studio album by the iconic punk band Killing Joke. It's like he has some kind of addition or he's thumbing his nose at this process. Perhaps both. Really, something needs to be done.--Oakshade (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

Moved this section down for visibility. Given the failure of the editor to respond sufficiently, or indeed to stop tagging articles that clearly pass our notability guidelines, I suggest a topic ban on User:Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to music recording related articles, broadly construed. Please feel free to tweak this as required. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Topic Ban Discussion

• Support as proposer. Black Kite (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support The user has no clear idea over notability guidelines and is tagging articles en-masse with thought. The edit history on this article is just one recent example. Continuation of tagging and failure to engage in this discussion point to WP:NOTHERE. Lugnuts 14:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Block until the topic ban issue is decided, to prevent further damage in the interim. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have warned him to disengage from this area until the discussion is concluded. Black Kite (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. He's even edit warring to reinstate clearly incorrect tags, and is being very disruptive. It seems like some kind of obsession that can't be reasoned with. And if he's continuing the disruption while this discussion is in progress, block until there's an outcome here. Squinge (talk) 15:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support per my reasoning in the main section above. --Cavarrone 17:19, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Black Kite and Lugnuts. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, simple enough. This should be enforced with long blocks. Shii (tock) 17:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support and block, but ensure notability tag ban applies to all topics. As Cavarrone indicated above, he has not limited himself to this tag abuse to just music related articles. --Oakshade (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Quite clearly needed. BMK (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Agree, it is my opinion he does not change his attitude and just keeps adding tags wildly on every article. User:Info4allthepeople (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, clearly, the editor is either not acting in good faith, or is not taking due care when tagging articles for notability. Either way, they shouldn't be editing these articles until they demonstrate an understanding of when notability tags are appropriate. Lankiveil 00:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC).
• Support appropriate restrictions on this editor including the proposed topic-ban. Even accepting his subjective good faith, his pattern of participation is damaging. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Judging by this, I'm not sure if s/he doesn't quite understand what notability means or if s/he just doesn't care (I'm leaning toward the latter though). Erpert 05:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support banning Lachlan Foley from adding notability tags to articles. User demonstrated on my talk page that their believes about notability criterion are in direct conflict with WP:GNG. -- Sam 10:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Given his history of constructive edits this is clearly not a SPA whose purpose is disruption. Tagging articles is a means of promoting discussion and dialog; an editor doesn't need to obtain a certain threshold of agreement to his proposals or face silencing. It would be different if the editor were blanking pages, etc., but someone should not be topic banned simply for expressing (extreme) minority viewpoints. BlueSalix (talk) 10:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose See Leviathan (song), for instance -- there is no particular assertion of notability on that page, so tagging for notability and refimprove was not a bad thing.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

  WP:NSONGS clearly states that charting by itself is not sufficient to establish notability. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

If I went on a blind tagging spree, hitting 1000s of articles, I bet I can get one right eventually. Lugnuts 13:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

What Lugnuts said. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Just by randomness, something will hit.--Oakshade (talk) 15:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for much the same reason as Sarek. See Talk:4st 7lb, for example, where he's precisely right: WP:NSONGS states that album reviews don't contribute to an album track's notability. When I dig back through his tags they seem pretty much correct based on the properly-sourced contents of the tagged articles. This comes down to an age-old issue, where people that have made defective articles dislike it when people tag the defects as opposed to correcting them. That the tags can generally be easily addressed doesn't make them wrong, and, if we topic-ban Lachlan Foley, we make it that much more likely that no one will ever fix the underlying articles.—Kww(talk) 13:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

We can ignore Kww comments following a string of bad-faith edits over the weekend. Clearly needs to read WP:CIR before he continues. Lugnuts 14:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The attacks are getting pretty old, Lugnuts.—Kww(talk) 14:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

For attacks, read facts. Are you now going to do your token block threat now that you've been found out? Lugnuts 15:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to disagree with 4st 7lb (though there are lot of independent sources available - it might sneak in), but the problem is that LF has been tagging charting singles by major bands. What are the chances of there being no sources available for those? Nil. Tag them for more sources by all means, but tagging for notability is ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - NSONG isn't exactly definitive (probably are, may be, etc), but the articles (as tagged) appear to at least be in question. Yes, there may be other sources that establish notability - but they aren't in the articles and there is enough to question based on what is in the articles. Blocking or topic-banning for placing tags is not a good precedent at all. The editor is engaging at the article talk pages and at their own talk page (to some degree). Worse than the tagging is the edit warring to remove the tags without addressing the concerns raised. --Tgeairn (talk) 15:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Nobody here is claiming LF should be blocked just by tagging, it's the mass indiscriminate tagging with many clear examples tagging article topics that are most definitely notable (remember, WP:NOTABILITY is very clear:"Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation."). Tagging the #5 UK hit Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song) article demonstrates the indiscriminate, almost random nature of LF's tagging. As pointed out above, this has been going on for years. Notability tagging the Oliver Stone-directed film Seizure? Clearly LF has learned nothing over the years. As the opening states, something needs to be done to keep this user in check. --Oakshade (talk) 15:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Mayhaps I am in the wrong here too. Seeing Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), I would tag it for notability and sources as well. There are two references, one is not about the article subject at all, and the other is a completely unreliable source of user-generated trivia. Yes, if this was a #5 UK hit then it may be notable (per WP:NSONG) - but we don't even have a source for that. I'd still tag it, as NSONG has additional criteria for standalone articles. I'm not seeing clear examples of indiscriminate tagging. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

As for Seizure, it had zero references at the time of tagging. Of course it should be tagged or fixed on the spot. It now has a single reference (to Facebook, no less). The lack of a tag is hurting article quality, as nothing is drawing editors to find reliable sources for what is likely a notable film. Again, I would have tagged it too. --Tgeairn (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, and the added tag asked for exactly what needed to be done: someone needed to add reliable sources that address the topic's notability.—Kww(talk) 16:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Tagging for more sources is one thing, but notability tagging which in effect says "This is not notable because I don't see sources" is a different matter. For Oh Yeah (Roxy Music song), with no surprise it only took me about 3 seconds to confirm it was a #5 hit as you would want confirmation for . For Seizure, it took 2 seconds to find very in-depth coverage. It's clear LF doesn't make any effort to follow WP:NOTABILITY and WP:BEFORE on obvious examples such as those and just slaps on notability tags.--Oakshade (talk) 16:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)--Oakshade (talk) 16:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Note that WP:BEFORE isn't mandatory, isn't a guideline, and wouldn't be a relevant one if it was. It's a paragraph inside a page describing our AFD process and describes what to do before nominating an article for deletion. If Lachlan was dragging this many articles through AFD, I'd be in favor of a topic ban. Putting a tag on unsourced articles in the hopes that someone that cares about the topic will care enough to add a reliable source? That doesn't seem to warrant any kind of action.—Kww(talk) 16:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we'll just go back and forth on this about tagging for sources, which nobody here is having issue with, is a very different matter from mass indiscriminate tagging for notability which is beyond simply a request for sources and where the issue is with most editors here. Pretty much what I stated just above is where I'll leave it stand.--Oakshade (talk) 18:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

If the only difference between the two tags is that the notability tag has an implication that makes it more successful in getting editors to actually add sourcing, I would see that as a fairly persuasive argument for using the notability tag.—Kww(talk) 19:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree with that. The only time I would use the notability tag was if I saw an article that (a) looked non-notable, (b) I couldn't find any online sources, but (c) I was not familiar with it and could see that there may be something I'm missing. If I suspected it was possibly notable then I would add refimprove and see what happened; if I was fairly sure it was non-notable I would nom it for deletion. The notability tag is IMHO fairly useless in most circumstances. And especially with many of these where (b) doesn't apply anyway unless you're not trying. Black Kite (talk) 21:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, empirical evidence has told me that expecting anyone to fix a top level tag at any time is just wishful thinking. Take a look at George Town SC, Historic church of Cúcuta, Iranian football league system, New Town, Luton and New England Interstate Route 19 - not a single source added on any of those articles for well over eight years. Ritchie333 14:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Support. The tags I have looked at mostly verge on the ridiculous. And there are many hundreds of them posted over the last few days. And they have done this before, and not learnt. They haven't even stopped for this ANI. And the only explantation posted is "You are just still upset about that Joy Division incident and are grasping at straws in an attempt to get back at me.", showing no understanding of the issues at hand. Something needs to be done, and this is a good start, else this disruption will continue. I would also support a motion to restrict drive by tagging by this user too, as most of them have no talk page discussions at all.--Mrjulesd (talk) 19:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per discussion below. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose ban as being Draconian (covering every single article "broadly construed"?) but suggest a stern warning that a topic ban on "music notability tags" is highly likely in future if too many bad notability tags do not stick. Collect (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

He was already given a stern warning. And that was 2012. He doesn't care about warnings.--Oakshade (talk) 05:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support per WP:HITANDRUN - the way you fix articles is by doing this, not this. (See point 15 on my user page). Ritchie333 08:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - not buying the arguments of "there are loads of unreferenced things in this category", "NSONG is vague" or "they got this tag right!" - the fact is that tag bombing to this degree is almost always disruptive, and when many of these are blatantly wrong... then the user shouldn't be performing such actions. It's as simple as that. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Semi-automated tagging with Twinkle of a series of articles with minimal or no investigation is disruptive and probably a mark of tendentious editing. It does seems that this is an editor who does other things than that, fortunately. A strong Knock It The Hell Off message needs to be sent. Carrite (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Any admins wish to act on this now? Lugnuts 19:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

LF topic ban Discussion

An editor thinks something might be wrong with this page. They can't be bothered to fix it, but can rest assured that they've done their encyclopedic duty by sticking on a tag. Please allow this tag to languish indefinitely at the top of the page, since nobody knows exactly what the tagging editor was worked up about.

Of the current 6,928,882 articles, about a quarter million have {{Unreferenced}} tags, to pick one example.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. I actually do have a problem with tagging articles. Once upon a time some wikiperson had the road to hell is paved with good intentions idea that, upon finding a problem, instead of fixing it, they'd place a tag on the top the page so that some mythical, unicorn like massive herd of editors would appear and fix 'em. They're a bureaucratic, make work for other people abomination that should go away. Since so many folks like them, of course, a whatever-for-deletion would unfortunately be WP:POINTY which is why I haven't filed it. Given that they exist, and they're acceptable to the community, unless anyone can provide evidence that tags are consistently wrong, Lachlan Foley should not be banned from adding them. NE Ent 23:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

302860 for {{citation needed}}. Thank you for providing me with a method of verifying that adding that tag is of no particular benefit.—Kww(talk) 23:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I use {{citation needed}} when improving an article towards GA status, for information in the article when I found it that I'm prepared to believe is true, but haven't found a source for yet. The main difference here is that I take responsibility for the tag when I'm adding it. Ritchie333 14:28, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for an admin to close this topic ban proposal

I can't imagine much more relevant discussion is forthcoming. --Mrjulesd (talk) 21:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, I think everything likely has been covered at this point. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Conduct of J Doug McLean

This user is a published author, who has made some valuable contributions at Talk:lift (force). However, I am concerned about his conduct towards myself and others.

I joined the discussion last August, partly because of this comment, arguing from authority against other authors and implying they were not "aware of these pressure forces". This was refuted by evidence from the sources. Since then, I have seen an ongoing pattern of incivility towards anyone who disagrees with him. To highlight just a few examples:
8 October 2014: Claim that different numerical results are, "comparing what different sources say about precisely the same question".
13 November 2014: Dismissal of reasoned review of evidence as 'intuition', 'speculation', and 'protestation' (previously brought to ANI).
5 December 2014: Claim that source "supports what I've been arguing all along." (Refuted.)
11 January 2015: Refusal to listen to another user, "at this point yours would seem to be a minority view. Does anyone else oppose my adding this new subsection?"

Finally, I asked for specific evidence of verifiability for one of his claims and was not satisfied with his response. He has already been asked publicly and personally to refer to WP:VERIFICATION. He proposes insertion of a footnote that looks to me like WP:OR, but he only seems to refer to policy when it supports his argument.

I've had enough of arguing with him. Please evaluate his conduct and take any steps necessary to protect the community. Burninthruthesky (talk) 13:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Doug McLean is a cited author in the article. In his published works he also criticises a standard introductory approach to the subject, and for many months now has been trying to push his minority PoV on the article. He has a clear conflict of interest, and to his credit has avoided editing himself but has confined himself to the talk page. However the discussions became interminable and sometimes less than gentlemanly, and I joined the debate to help manage them. That succeeded partially, though they now fill at least two archives,7 and 8, as well as the current talk page. Despite a strong warning there, and again on their talk page, the excessive pedantry still trickles on. I should like to propose a voluntary topic ban for say six months, both to give us all a breather and to give Doug a chance to learn more constructive approaches to editing Misplaced Pages. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I certainly need a break from this endless conflict. It would be much easier for me just to remove the article from my watchlist, but I don't think that's the right thing to do. Burninthruthesky (talk) 07:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I participated in the discussion in question, often re-reading Doug McLean's and others' comments several times in order to better understand them, so I am quite familiar with the issue. There were/are disagreements among the editors including myself. In my view, at the times when the discussion began to border on incivility it was not Doug McLean who was being uncivil. While the administrators are welcome to wade through the walls of text on the Talk page, I don't think there's anything actionable there at least as far as Doug McLean's behavior. And I don't think bringing this up in AN/I is conducive towards building consensus. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 12:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Mr. Swordfish, after some pause for thought, I can perhaps understand why you don't see it. Doug is very knowledgeable, eloquent and persuasive. He would never sink to the level of calling someone a "dilettante" (as someone else did). But no amount of careful wording can hide the underlying message, "you're wrong" that has been consistently levelled against others, regardless of what the evidence says. No doubt some of the mistakes that have been alleged were in fact wrong. We all make mistakes. I know I've made some, and I've corrected myself where I can. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as we're willing to learn.

You were rightly offended by the other incident, and chose to report it, as you are entitled. Personally I found that event far less distressing than the remainder of the last six months. Perhaps this helps you understand how I feel about this situation. If you do have any unresolved concerns about another editor's conduct, you should raise it with them, with evidence, in the appropriate place. If you have unresolved content issues, they should of course be raised on the article talk page. Burninthruthesky (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC); edited 22:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

As a participant in one of the most recent discussions, I have found Doug a bit verbose and maybe hard to get on the same page with, but definitely nothing actionable at AN/I. Sometimes debates go over-long. I think things have mostly been handled in a responsible way. That said, I haven't been over to that page in the last few months - I'll look at where things have gone since then and comment again if possible. That said, it's not at all unreasonable for people with a disagreement to be negative about one anothers' positions. Obviously he thinks we're wrong; we think he's wrong! I kinda wonder if any remaining content disputes might actually be best resolved with a conference call between the primaries or something, if that's feasible. 0x0077BE 15:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@0x0077BE: I can't agree that things were handled in a responsible way. To give a relevant example, at one point we were asked, "If 0x0077BE and Burninthruthesky think The Statement is true for some control volume other than the infinitely tall sliver, they need to tell us specifically what control volume that is and provide citable sources for their assertion."

I don't think I made any such assertion (see my link to "evidence" above). Did you? Burninthruthesky (talk) 10:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Notability tagging, IMHO frivolous and disruptive, of a Star Trek episode

An editor, User:Doniago, has been applying a "dispute as to notability" tag on our article for one of the 79 original Star Trek episodes, The Gamesters of Triskelion. Although this article could certainly use more links to out-of-universe discussion of the episode, it is quite obvious, and has been accepted for years, that every original Star Trek episode is notable enough to warrant an article. No explanation has been offered as to why this particular episode should be an exception (a point I make here with some hesitation, as it should not be taken as a basis for tagging a dozen or more other episodes either).

There being no reasonable basis for questioning the notability of this particular episode, or any episode, I have attempted to remove the tag, although I have not removed a parallel tag asking for more links or citations. Doniago has repeatedly insisted on reinstating the tag. Ordinarily this would merely result in a talkpage discussion, which would eventually result in enough people who understand the historical importance of Star Trek coming to the page to create the obvious a consensus for notability. However, the community's time is its most precious asset and I do not believe it should be squandered in a lengthy discussion about a nonsensical tagging (after all, is there any doubt that if this article were taken to AfD, the result would be a speedy or snowball keep?)?

I request input on whether my view of this as a frivolous tag is shared by others, or whether the community believes that in such a matter as this, we should engage in process for the process' own sake. (Notification being given to Doniago and on the article talkpage.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

All 79 episode articles are equally notable. Why Doniago feels otherwise, is a mystery to me. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Equally notable as any other. Are they a new editor(like myself) who is just a bit confused on how to go about making it clear that the article needs improvement? FlossumPossum (talk) 22:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a new editor, just one who doesn't believe that all Star Trek episodes are notable any more than he would agree that all Lord of the Rings characters are equally notable. I asked for any prior consensus establishing that all ST episodes are inherently considered notable and was not provided one. I also asked for any independent source that had discussed the episode in significant detail and, again, was not provided with one. If the consensus is that all ST episodes merit an article regardless of how well-developed they are then I'll bow to that consensus, but I think to dismiss an editor's sincere concerns that an article may not meet Notability concerns, to summarily remove maintenance tags while not engaging in conversation on the matter, and to further dismiss the editor's concerns as "frivolous" is inappropriate. Then there's bringing the editor to ANI without making any evident effort to follow other Dispute Resolution processes... Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy to unwatch the article and let it remain as substandard as it is if trying to call attention to it is going to engender such a hostile and unwarranted response. DonIago (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

From what I've read at the article-in-question's talkpage, there's a consensus that the episode is notable. GoodDay (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

DonIago, if you can realistically imagine an article like that getting deleted at AfD on notability grounds, then you are new to Misplaced Pages, so I'll just gently tell you that such a deletion would be extremely unlikely and that you'll come to understand this with more experience. And if you understand already that the article wouldn't be deleted in such an AfD, then adding the notability tag is frivolous, as Brad says. There's a huge difference between saying an article needs improvement and that the topic is non-notable. Generally, if you think an article is substandard, unless it's seriously biased or misleading our readers, it's best to either WP:SOFIXIT or leave it alone. Putting in tags telling other people to fix it just uglies up the article and makes you look like a dick. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 01:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

That's funny, I thought the point of tagging was to call out problems that needed to be fixed and that might go ignored otherwise. One doesn't need to be in a position to fix a problem to recognize that a problem exists, and is it not better to "fire off a flare", as it were, then to simply let substandard articles propagate? DonIago (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The intention of the tags was something like that, but they were another of those well-meaning ideas that (IMHO) hasn't worked in practice. The way to deal with a bad article is fix it yourself, or leave a note on the talk page with specific criticisms. If you don't care about it enough to do either of those things but tag the article anyway, you're just a busybody, and the tags make reading or editing the article distasteful enough that it's less likely to ever be improved. Edit warring over the tag compounds the problem, in this case to the point where it's worse than whatever was wrong with the article. Use the talk page, but also try to understand Misplaced Pages culture when deciding what to do about a particular article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me if I don't give a lot of credence to the views of an IP editor who engages in borderline personal attacks and has less than a week's worth of editing under their belt. DonIago (talk) 05:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In terms of Misplaced Pages practice that ship has long since sailed regardless of what we deletionists (I count myself as one) think. The tagging is frivolous and pointy and Doniago ought to meditate for a while on the meaning of NOTBURO, with administrative assistance if it comes to that.

As a content question I don't have any real concern about our ability to write a neutral article about something as old as a TOS episode anyway, so I'm not particularly bothered by the articles' presence. There's millions of other articles that I'd chop (like all the BLP's) before getting around to the TOS episodes. No they're not equally notable, and I agree that Gamesters of Triskelion was one of the weaker ones despite the presence of Angelique Pettyjohn. But the presence of an article for each TOS ep is an ancient Misplaced Pages reality and if someone has an issue with it, it's best to start a Village Pump discussion (or Jimbo's talk page ) rather than tag bombing an article. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 23:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The most important thing right now, is that the back-and-forth adding/deleting of the tag, has stopped. GoodDay (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

One quatloo on keep. --NE2 23:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Somehow, I knew that kinda joke would surface :) GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I approve. DonIago (talk) 00:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

In general, I think we have way too low of a bar on individual episodes and characters. In this case I do think its likely that this episode would be found notable but I don't think the tagging was in bad faith or is an issue for ANI though. I do think we need to have some wide ranging RFCs to nail down these criteria though. Personally, I think that if every episode is regularly covered by reviews, or in a "trek encyclopedia" etc that is not a sign of individual notability but series notability. To show episode notability, sources that do not cover every single episode are what we need. (IE, AV club, or TVCritic reviewing an ep does not show notability. When Time, or the NYT, or someone like that writes about an episode it does. ) Gaijin42 (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. That's pretty much exactly what the thrust of my argument has been with regards to this situation. DonIago (talk) 04:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point is a no-no even if the point being made is valid. Don't war over a content tag to pursue a larger wiki-crusade. If you want to pursue a crusade, start a mailing list thread or something. Non-notability of ST:TOS episodes is one of the stupider crusades a person could pursue in my opinion though. I can suggest some much better ones if you're interested (HHOS). 50.0.205.75 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

This has long seemed to have been a problem. If something truly is "inherently notable", it should be trivial to cite sufficient sources showing that it is. I wouldn't have any issue at all citing sufficient references to maintain a full article on, say, a US President or a chemical element, so if anyone questioned notability there, I could quickly and definitively prove them wrong. If such references aren't available, it really is time to question the notability of the subject. That being said, the person questioning the notability should also have done their homework and done at least a reasonable search for references, and should note what they did that failed to find sufficient material to sustain a full article. Seraphimblade 20:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, the article has been tagged for needing citations since 2012 and was tagged for questionable notability in June of 2014. That suggests to me that it may be a case that either sources aren't available or no editors care to provide them. I made some effort to find sources that would not necessarily be expected to discuss a ST episode and couldn't find any (which isn't to suggest that they don't exist). The editors I attempted to discuss this matter with at the article's Talk page either could not or simply did not provide such sources either. If any source had been provided then we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. I didn't open an AFD because I think there probably is a worthwhile source out there somewhere, but if I can't find one and nobody else currently monitoring the article is willing/able to do the footwork, then IMO the Notability tag seems appropriate for the time-being. DonIago (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

A notability tag on an article like this would make Misplaced Pages look absurd and I will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags, whether or not I have immediate access to my library of secondary Star Trek sources as a given moment. I do not believe this sort of tilting at notability windmills should be encouraged, as it results in gross misuses of community time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Can I ask how exactly placing a notability template on an article results in a "gross misuse of community time"? As Seraphim indicated, if a subject is notable then providing a source shouldn't be a problem.

In my estimation, by removing notability tags you're perpetutating the existence of potentially substandard articles while at the same time removing a tool that can lead to the improvement of those same articles. Put another way, I don't think I'm the one who's been frivolous and disruptive during this whole situation, and that's not even accounting for the fact that I was willing to discuss the matter while your first significant action beyond continually removing the tag was to raise the issue here. DonIago (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, Newyorkbrad, it would be better if you used your "energetic best efforts" to chastise editors that persist in keeping unsourced articles in the project? If, indeed, the article was about a notable topic, correcting it should have been fairly simple. Encouraging projects to believe that they are immune to standard sourcing requirements is what causes the trouble, as their misbehaviour tends to spread.—Kww(talk) 19:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind, before this ANI was started, the discussion in the episode's talk page did include sources. While we really prefer the sources to be included on the article, our pre-AFD checklist says that sources identified on talk page - if they would be the type to meet notability requirements - are sufficient to demonstrate notability. --MASEM (t) 19:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• You may want to query some of the folks at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Star Trek. — Ched :  ?  01:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I've notified WP:STAR TREK. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

And I've wandered over after seeing that post. :) The subject of whether or not an article on episodes of television series which only contain plots has come up a few times over the past couple of years since I've been involved with the project. It's not so much a case of whether or not the article is notable or not, just whether or not they meet the style guide for television episodes. Equally episodes of other series (Stargate SG-1 springs to mind) have been changed to redirects to the episode/season lists. Certainly for me, this is a much better situation than simply deleting the article entirely as it allows the historical article to be restored when expansion does occur. However, in previous discussions, those plots have been left alone as we've demonstrated as a project that we are working through the 700+ live action episode articles (nearing 100 GAs now) but we have well over 600 to go. Our TOS expert has returned and is working up "Space Seed" for FA, and I'm sure once he's through that then he'll intend to start fixing up the other TOS articles too. Plus since the publication of These Are The Voyages, there has been a resurgence in information avaliable as this published production notes and Nielsen ratings for all the TOS episodes for the first time. From online sources, I can quickly find two reviews from reliable sources (AV Club and Tor.com) specifically for this episode as well as a book discussing the slash relationship between Kirk and Spock hinted at in this episode and comparing it to the 1960's Batman series. I think the current tag requiring further citations is entirely appropriate, while it's notability isn't simply inherited by virtue of it's status as a TOS episode but by the coverage it has received. Miyagawa (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

My impression, as things seem to have quieted down in this discussion, is that there's no clear consensus as to whether the article should be tagged. While a citation to the NYT has since been added to the article, it is more of a throwaway contained within a review of a film than substantial coverage. As being tagged for notability does not harm the article and may lead to its improvement, my feeling is that the tag should be permitted for the time-being. As more than one editor noted above, if editors take issue with the article being tagged, they have the option of providing information with appropriate citations to establish how this particular episode is independently notable. All that being said, I obviously don't want to add the tag myself and then find myself back here, and I'm also concerned by Brad's previous statement that he "will continue using energetic best efforts to remove such tags". Would an admin be willing to support my or another editor's re-adding of the tag? Thank you very much. DonIago (talk) 14:38, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm about to add a source or two, so tagging would probably be a waste of time. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hey Doniago. Let me start by saying that I understand your concerns, and they're not particularly new.

We editors are but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of pop culture, and even a phenomenon like Star Trek really only has a couple of editors making things happen (h.t. especially to Miyagawa for picking up a lot of the slack I dropped while I was on ArbCom.) So while we work, there are a lot of articles that are mostly just summaries, because that was the easiest thing to add back in the day. And a year from now, a good deal of the 700-odd Star Trek episodes are going to in the same situation.

I can understand it's frustrating to just be told "it is notable" without a lot of evidence for it, but that's the case when you're dealing with people with a greater knowledge of the subject; it might be obvious to us but not to you, and I don't think that's your fault. We're just dealing with inside baseball. I know I've come across articles from (admittedly smaller) franchises like Gundam and pointed out how they read as cruft, and had people up in arms in a similar way.

I've gone ahead and added as ELs Tor and AV Club's review of the episodes, and there are a couple others that I don't think work as ELs that could be used as references.

Articles like these really come down to, "is it worth deleting an article that has a lot of verifiable info out there, but which is not in the article," and "is it the challenger's responsibility to add that information?" I would say that it's in the spirit of wiki-collaboration to do your best to add, but also understand that a random article you come across isn't your area of expertise and we can't all be content mavens. With all respect to User:Newyorkbrad's determinations, I don't consider your edits disruptive (they are certainly less wasteful of everyone's time than going straight to AfD, and possibly deleting the article and having to recreate it later); I find tagging articles and keeping them on our radars a helpful thing to do, and that editors tend to get riled up by maintenance tags more than they should be.

(On the subject of notability, I think it's arguable that Star Trek's immense notability doesn't exactly encompass all its episodes, but I think that's less true for the original series episodes, which have been the subject of many contemporary reviews, books on the production, etc. Later series like Voyager have less written about them on an individual basis and are the ones that might benefit from a merge into a season article, for instance; but first you'd have to get to each one and evaluate them with all the sources in hand.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments David. For now I'm at least content to wait to see Sarek's improvements to the article, and I certainly don't think there's any rush to re-tag the article; my main concern was that I didn't want this filing archived without a clear indication of whether tagging the article would be acceptable, or would land me right back here.

I certainly appreciate that progress on bringing the article to the point that (my) notability concerns are satisfied may take time, and I know there's no deadline. While I think it's appropriate to tag the article in its current condition, if someone was going to nominate it for deletion it wouldn't be me. As I've said, I consider one of the benefits of tagging to be that, while the article is waiting to be improved as part of a process, editors may be alerted to the issue via the tag and opt to improve the article on their own initiative. And as I also said, tagging the article doesn't do it any harm.

I'd probably agree that TOS episodes are more likely to be notable than episodes of later series, though that could depend on which particular episodes are being compared.

Anyway, thanks again. As I said, I'll hold off on re-tagging at least until I've seen Sarek's changes, and I'll wait to hear from an admin that re-tagging is permissible before I risk getting myself into (further?) trouble. DonIago (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Pinging: Newyorkbrad, DonIago, Miyagawa, SarekOfVulcan and David Fuchs. As I just noted on the article talk page, I've added some new material and sources with these edits. I trust this means the notability tag won't be re-added. It should be relatively simple to source the plot summary to reliable sources and that will enable the 'additional citations' tag to be removed as well. I suggest this ANI section is now closed, and discussion continues on the article talk page.

As an aside, some of the television studies sources on Star Trek are well worth using in other articles. The source on Who Mourns for Adonais? was fascinating - I was surprised to find that source wasn't in our article on that episode, and may return to that later if time permits. Carcharoth (talk) 09:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm satisfied. Thanks for your work on the article! DonIago (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Off wiki non-constructive editing related to the English Misplaced Pages

User:IvanOS has accused me on the Croatian Misplaced Pages that I have a sockpuppet here, which is not true without initiating checkuser request here. To "prove" their point they added following diffs: 1, 2 adding that the users who made the edits are the same person (me). They used those edits as the "evidence" that I have insulted the entire Croatian nation (!). What is less relevant, but worth mentioning is that surprisingly their reasoning was accepted by an admin there leading to my indef block there. VS6507 (talk) 11:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi VS6507, thanks for raising this but I'm not clear what action you'd like taken - the en-wiki admins don't have any control over actions taken on the Croatian Misplaced Pages, and your account is not blocked and has not been accused of sockpuppetry here. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Be glad you didn't get a warning for restoring the vandalism of the other account. For those unfamiliar with Ustaše, this is like opening Germans with "also known as nazis". I will be kind and assume good faith: Maybe you thought the IP had only reverted your own edit and that reverting the IP would only restore your own edit. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, PrimeHunter, I apologise because I didn't notice that bit about "also known as ustashi".

I let admins to decide what action needs to be taken as he speculated off wiki about sockpuppetry here instead of reporting it. I give my consent for a checkuser check if someone thinks that that account might be associated with me. Valid checkuser analysis would also be useful to prove hr wiki admins that IvanOS didn't tell the truth and that my account here is clean when it comes to sockpuppetry and other negative behaviours as well. VS6507 (talk) 14:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

VS6507 has had some problems with meatpuppetry (across different wikis) in the past - some editors here may recognise his previous accountname - so, if IvanOS suspects sockpuppetry, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. @IvanOS:, is there any more evidence? bobrayner (talk) 14:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Bobrayner: No, it isn't. --IvanOS 15:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I want to direct people that Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/VS6507 was just created. However it's likely to be denied. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Chaheel Riens (that's me) and Ghmyrtle being accused of both being the same user - sockpuppets.

There was a bit of an editing brouhaha over at Casual (subculture), and an IP editor seems to have now registered under the name of Richie bedfellows.

During the exchange he has accused GhMyrtle and myself of being the same editor twice in different edits.

I objected to this each time and gave him the chance to redact - his response is here, however, he invites me to not "be waiting around for the weekend to finish, my friend" - so I'm not. Both involved editors informed. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@Richie bedfellows: I have plenty of legitimate reasons for suspicion. Please do share these reasons, as accusations of sockpuppetry are serious, and not showing any kind of support behind them is concidered harassment, and can get you blocked. Don't be quick to assume that someone is a sockpuppet. Please take care. -- Orduin 22:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

He's posted provocatively on my talk page again, exactly one minute after doing so on his own page - inviting @Orduin: to message him, whereupon he will reveal his suspicions. I've replied, asking him to post here instead. His reply seems to suggest that he thinks Orduin is watching his talkpage (which may be the case - but also may not). Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking deeper, it seems that Richie and the IP editor are not the same - Richie was just duplicating the errors made by said IP editor, so I've struck that particular comment. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

This is getting to me, as the user has yet to supply us with his evidence, and seems to be putting this on hold. -- Orduin 20:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks too - inviting me (twice) to stick my head up my arse. Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, that 'special' comment was added by an IP editor, but it could have been by the same person, but logged out. I removed the comment.

It does not seem to fit in with the later comment added by Richie bedfellows. -- Orduin 18:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

User:174.141.182.82 invalid RfC closure

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Will someone please explain to ‎174.141.182.82 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) that he is not entitled to close an RfC in which he has been a busy participant? I have now reverted his closure twice. He cites that there is "clear consensus", which I disagree with; opinions are very divided instead. I ask an uninvolved editor or admin close the discussion instead. -- ] {{talk}} 20:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I have posted to the IP talk page confirming that, as an involved editor, he or she may not close the discussion, and that doing so again may lead to a block. I'm afraid I don't have time to make the detailed study of the rather long discussion that would be needed to close it. I hope someone with more time will do so. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I was the one who started the RFC, it’s run longer than a month, there has been no relevant activity for a week, and there doesn’t seem to be any question about the outcome. I asked User:Edokter to post to WP:AN if he wanted to contest this per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE, rather than repeatedly reverting me; he refused (see User talk:Edokter#Your reverts). Also, he violated WP:3RR: . Could someone explain to him that that isn’t proper behavior? —174.141.182.82 (talk) 21:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

1. You may not close a discussion in which you have been actively involved. It is totally unnecessary to invoke WP:CLOSECHALLENGE here, as the close should never have been done in the first case. It would not be at all helpful to start requiring editors to start up the cumbersome process of a discussion at an administrative noticeboard for trivial issues which can be dealt with by a simple revert of and edit which was out of process and should never have been made.
2. Despite that, Edokter has done what you asked, namely started as discussion here about it, and you have received an answer.
3. To say "there doesn’t seem to be any question about the outcome" makes no sense, because Edokter has questioned it. Even if you sincerely thought at the time when you first closed it that there would be no question, as soon as your closure was reverted you knew better.
4. Linking to three reverts cannot demonstrate breaking of the so called "3 revert rule", as that rule refers to making more than three reverts within a 24-hour period. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

   I misremembered 3RR; my apologies. But to your first and third points, WP:RFC says that participants may close a discussion, and both it and WP:CLOSE advise rather strongly against formal closure if the outcome is obvious. All indications were that the reverts were based on a belief that this was never ever ever allowed and that RFCs absolutely must run for 30 days, rather than any objections to the close itself. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

There has also been discussion that the closure of RFCs, or of anything else requiring closure, by IP editors is discouraged because IP addresses sometimes change, making communication about closure review difficult or impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:26, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOLD and WP:IAR are just as much policy as anything else. His judgement on consensus appears to be accurate as well. I say let it stand/ KoshVorlon Je Suis Charlie 18:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Those only hold until actions are contested, and definitely not to be used to push an issue. -- ] {{talk}} 20:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Just realized no link to it was included, so, here was my close: . In it, I claimed that there wsa not a consensus for the change (not, as User:Edokter claimed, “clear consensus”). I stand by my closing summary since I honestly don’t see how it could be interpreted any other way, but if anyone does see a clear consensus there (or some other way I was mistaken), please close it appropriately. (Or if an uninvolved editor agrees with my close enough to restore it, I wouldn’t complain about that.) Thank you. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 07:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

That was in reference to your claim that WP:CLOSE allows closure by involved parties when there is "clear consensus". And it was exactly my objection that there was none, hence why the closure was improper. -- ] {{talk}} 09:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You mean at ? I misspoke there; I used “consensus” as a synonym for “outcome.” You still haven’t suggested that any other outcome was plausible. And CLOSE does discourage formal closure requests where the outcome is clear. I didn’t do it on a whim; I checked project pages to make sure it was allowed. As far as I could tell, it was. Which was why it was so frustrating to have you repeatedly and bureaucratically reverting over perceived violations of “policy” found on non-policy (and non-guideline) pages that didn’t even support your objections, and then ignoring requests for clarification. Frankly, I’m getting tired of it. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 11:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• I am not interested in discussing whether or not some sentence somewhere in some relevant page can be interpreted as meaning that an involved editor can sometimes close a discussion. There is no point in doing so, because nothing in any Misplaced Pages policy, guideline, or any other page is a firm rule that is to be taken as absolute. I have no doubt whatever that there could be circumstances where I would regard it as reasonable for an editor to close a discussion in which they have taken part. However, the following two facts remain: (1) It is almost always better not to close a discussion in which you have been highly active. (2) Once another editor has challenged a closure by an involved editor, it is clear that the closure is not uncontroversial (no matter how strongly one may feel that it should be uncontroversial, and that the editor who challenged it is being unreasonable) and the only reasonable options are either to leave it unclosed or to ask for an uninvolved editor to asses it and close it. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

  Then I’ll reiterate my request for exactly that to happen. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Does Misplaced Pages offer medical advice now?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Alanagribble (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Baseball_Bugs (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wnt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• StuRat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Aspro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

At Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous, Alanagribble made a clear request for medical advice. I removed it, and left a note on their user page welcoming them but explaining that we do not give medical advice (even explaining why it's a bad idea to take medical advice from us).

Baseball Bugs then restored the section to explain the Alanagribble's condition to him. I removed it again, once again pointing out that we don't offer medical advice, to which Bugs replied by:

• starting an unproductive argument, initially refusing to explain his position beyond "you're wrong," and eventually saying that I treated Alanagribble "like a jerk" (which I do consider a failure of WP:AGF, if not WP:NPA)
• asking WNT for help.

WNT restored the section. I was prepared to just drop it, even before the section was removed again independently by Medeis -- but since then StuRat and Aspro have responded to the initial clear request for medical advice, both discussing possible treatments, Aspro even recommending medications.

Yes, the advice in many cases included "ask a medical professional" (which fits in "Misplaced Pages does not give medical advice") but often consisted of more than that. Is Misplaced Pages:Medical disclaimer one of the humor pages now or something? Can I pretend to be Dr. Nick as often as I want, now? Ian.thomson (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Usually, questions about whether something constitutes medical advice are handled on the ref desk talk page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

This has gone beyond the ref desk, though. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Had you brought this to the ref desk talk page, it wouldn't have. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

There's a page that specifically addresses this: Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice. In short, no, medical advice is not allowed, even on the ref desk. However, it also states that outright removal of the question is also discouraged. ansh666 21:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Advising someone to see a doctor is not medical advice. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• This has been discussed ad nauseam, we've been given opinions at the Ref Desk talk page that (1) such material should simply be removed without comment and (2) that the existence of our disclaimer means that whatever happens in the future, our actually giving medical advice cannot be construed as our actually giving medical advice. Given this is amateur legal advice, I wonder what someone like the Wikimedia Foundation might say about whether disclaimers imply
  

We constantly have people giving professional medical, veterinary, dietary, legal and investment advice, and a presumption by some users that they are simply entitled to answer whatever question they find "interesting" regardless of our policy. (Many of these questions are obvious trolling, in any case, but that's a side issue.)

We have templates for removing such comments, but their existence is taken as an inconvenience by some, not as an indication that the community thinks it is appropriate and expected to remove such material.

I think at the very least we need stronger guidelines at the top of the ref desk pages advising any material that would require a license to answer (i.e, for which one could be convicted of fraudulently posing as a licensed professional) will be removed. I am a bit busy in the real world right now, with an overdue work project and a broken toe, among other disasters, but I think all the current contributors on the ref desk medical/veterinary issues should be asked for comment, not just the ones mentioned by name above. In the meantime, I support Ian.thomson's complaint.μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Medies approach of removing questions without comment is completely inappropriate, since there is no opportunity to garner a consensus, and she has shown, in the past, that she is incapable of correctly determining which questions are in need of removal. StuRat (talk) 05:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• This subject of bruxing hits close to home for me, as I am close to someone who has lost nearly all their teeth over time due to bruxing which, had it been properly diagnosed early on, might have been preventable. The good faith question by someone who claims to be bruxing deserves a good faith response warning of the risks and to see a professional. To dismiss the questioner with no information is unfair to that questioner. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Also, the complainant here claimed I was giving a "diagnosis", which is a false claim, and is why I said "You're wrong". Had the complainant read the bruxism article (which I seriously doubt he has done even yet), calling it bruxism is not a "diagnosis", it's by definition what he's describing - grinding of teeth at night and also during the day is bruxing. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:35, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

My reversion shouldn't be seen as a personal comment on BBB's editting; I have also advised users to contact a doctor in various cases. I don't think this thread should necessarily be about sanctioning or pointing out any one editor. The problem here was with the question itself in regards to stated policy. The best response is immediate removal of the question and a polite suggestion on the user page that in case of any serious medical issue one should seek licensed professional advice. μηδείς (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• I explained my thinking on restoring it, but in case you missed it: to explain that clenching/grinding teeth is called "bruxism" is simply a vocabulary word, like saying that a broken arm with the bones sticking out is a compound fracture. This helps the questioner look up information but it is not a medical diagnosis. The OP already understood the drug was causing this side effect, already knew what it was, already was under a doctor's care, but simply needed a word, a search term, to help him learn more about the phenomenon. The only actual justification given for this policy is "ethical" in nature, but how can it be unethical to let someone know what the word for something is? I don't deny there's a slippery slope one way or the other here, but the way I see it the push for expansive interpretation of this policy has already slid that slope far beyond the stated goal of trying to keep laymen from representing themselves as doctors. I also note that Baseball Bugs has previously been one of the strongest advocates of such expansive interpretations, and when even he backpedals on the idea that ought to tell you something. Wnt (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• The comments by StuRat and Aspro test the policy, but I think the case can be made in their favor. StuRat essentially gave the "ask a medical professional" advice that some have seemed to approve of when in this situation in the past, with the added wrinkle that he suggested to ask a dentist about something a dentist would prescribe. The sticky point is that someone taking his advice might twist it a little, skip the doctor and dentist and buy a generic mouth guard at Wal-Mart, and get temporomandibular joint disorder later because it isn't really a solution to the underlying issue. That isn't his intent, though. Aspro gave what sound like medical treatments, except... these are nutritional supplements. Whether people like it or not, nutritional supplements are not regulated by the medical industry, not usually considered by doctors, not regarded as serious treatment, just as foods more or less. So if they're not medical, they're not medical advice. General advice is also prohibited, but since Aspro described this as personal experience rather than a recommendation that too is at least nominally avoided. They're both border cases but I think any criticism to be done is better done via answering the question than in ANI wikilawyering. Wnt (talk) 21:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• You all realize that the thread in question was removed from the ref desk again 16.5 hours before this ANI thread was even started, and has not been reinstated since then, right? Arguing for the sake of arguing is fine, just making sure you all realize that's what you're doing. Now that Wnt has accused someone besides himself of wikilawyering, the thread has probably jumped the shark... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: I was not accusing anyone - I just think any difference regarding scientific facts should be handled directly rather than in an administrative discussion. Wnt (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

This all goes to show the consequences of rendering a poor decision. In contrast, we have this, in which Medeis hatted something based on it being a request for speculation and professional advice. I think that's quite a stretch, especially as the question was already answered before it was hatted. But the point is that Medeis left it in place rather than trying to censor it as the complainant here did - a poor decision which naturally ballooned. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• So we've got this article Trans fat. It says, Although trans fats are edible, consumption of trans fats has shown to increase the risk of coronary heart disease (Presumably those little numbers mean we didn't just make that up.) An unreasonable interpretation of "no medical advice" would be that must go from the article, but that'd just be silly. Not giving misguided folks who come to the reference desk for medical advice is ethical. Simply removing their query on a wiki-technicality is rude. How about simply saying: "Here's our article on bruxism; per Misplaced Pages policy we can't give specific medical advice and encourage you to see a medical professional?" NE Ent 22:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The user did not say he was curious about teeth grinding. He said he has a medical condition. Seek a professional, end of story. If you want to put a note on the user's talk page advising him to see a doctor, fine. But discussing his condition at the ref desk is simply against stated policy. μηδείς (talk) 22:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is an ongoing issue that needs addressing. So far as it's serious, it's a request for professional advice. We've got a request for how to treat ass-crack sweat, the bruxism question, and now a request for advice on how to acquire real estate for a business, which involves licensed agents and, potentially, legal counsel. Dismissing the issue as moot is not helpful, since it continues unabated. μηδείς (talk) 22:38, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there really a license that is required to allow its holder to counsel people about how to deal with ass-crack sweat? I wonder what the ICD-10 code is for this condition... :) And the question about how to set up an office... I know there was some indignancy about interior designers managing to require licensing for their guild in some U.S. state, but we don't have a policy against interior design advice. Your examples here... those are the sort of things I would have chosen myself to lampoon your position. Wnt (talk) 22:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment They maybe a ICD-10 code is for this condition as it happens, such as but on Misplaced Pages we don't provide medical diagnosis . So I can not tell anyone what it is (Ho, ho). :¬)--Aspro (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• The only appropriate response is hatting the question with 'Seek advice from a medical professional'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• We do not give medical advise Thus hat all these discussions stating this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing in Misplaced Pages:Medical disclaimer that says anything about hatting discussions; based on that logic any article talk page discussion about a medical topic would have to be hatted immediately, which would make it difficult to come to consensus. NE Ent 03:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Also note that Aspro and I replied on the user's talk page, not the Ref Desk, so Ref Desk policies do not apply. StuRat (talk) 05:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Without commenting on the original debate, I just wanted to point out that, by definition, a disclaimer is not a policy. The medical disclaimer doesn't say "You can't give medical advice" it says "If you read it on Misplaced Pages, it's not medical advice", that's a world of difference. If I give you a disclaimer saying "Anything I say should not be construed as medical advice", then advise you to take some aspirin to help your headache, it means that I'm saying that as a lay person based on what I would do, not as someone competent and in a position to give a medical opinion on the issue, not that I'm violating my own policy of not advising on medical issues. In short, the way the disclaimer is being cited above doesn't make sense, either as the disclaimer is written nor as the fact that it is a disclaimer.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 07:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I remember seeing someone at the Refdesk talk page trying to repurpose the disclaimer as a prohibitive policy, but this is clearly an abuse. This isn't just because it's a disclaimer, it's because, well, read it: "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area." That's all it says, and I see nothing about not giving advice, hatting threads, taking people to ANI or anything else in there but a "please seek a professional", for which I should thank them. Wnt (talk) 13:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Block evasion by Claudia McHenry?

Hello, I'm Claudia and i'm a user on Misplaced Pages, and was blocked out of nowhere by ponyo on some block evasion grounds.

Several days ago, i forgot to log in to my account when i made an edit adding the birthday to the Christina Hoff-sommers page, and found that the IP address that my son usually edits from was blocked. It strikes me as strange that this block was put on the IP out of nowhere, so instead i have to edit from my appartment to ask the an/i to review the block on the IP address. I don't care about my account and there's no point blocking this IP as i'm moving march second to Vancouver. Please review the block on the address, or explain where the block evasion accusation originates. Was there a user formerly known as Claudia McHenry that was an unruly user years ago? Thanks. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 22:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Its going to be difficult to review an IP block wihtout knowing the IP address. Could you provide further info. Also its a bad idea to come to WP:ANI and admit to being a blocked account socking via an IP. Unless the block also involved the talk page of the IP address you would have been able to appeal the block there. Amortias (T)(C) 23:01, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

To me this idea that someone who accidentally doesn't log in can then be blocked, and then later accused of being a sockpuppet evading a block, smacks of the same sort of backwards logic and everyone-is-a-criminal mentality that lets police arrest people for resisting arrest (when no other crime is evident). The details of the block are not difficult to find in User:Ponyo's log (date January 23). In any case, the chronology appears to be: (1) 199.101.61.190 (talk · contribs) edits Christina Hoff Sommers to add the day and month of birth, but without sources, and is immediately reverted (with an edit summary indicating that the reverter treated the edit as a good faith one, but unhelpful); (2) Ponyo blocks the IP for no obvious reason with the edit summary "block evasion"; (3) Claudia McHenry (talk · contribs) logs in, and politely asks Ponyo what the block was for; (4) Ponyo makes the block on the IP permanent, blocks Claudia, and prevents Claudia from appealing the block by using the setting that prevents her from editing her talk page. Unless I am missing something major, this seems like a gross overreaction on Ponyo's part. Maybe Ponyo can come here and explain? —David Eppstein (talk) 23:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, i'm sorry if i broke a rule by not logging in before editing that page. Serg, the guy who edits from the IP accoutn usually says his edits were undone or something like that. Also if i'm breaking a rule by posting here, i appolojize deeply. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 23:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Clearly you are missing something DE and you should not use terms like "gross overreaction" (I have not seen P overreact to anything in all the years of their adminship) until you have "all" the facts. Ponyo has been working with SPI reports and checkusers for months now and this could well be related to that work. MarnetteD|Talk 23:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with DE. Color me skeptical. See below. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

you should not use terms like "gross overreaction" ... until you have "all" the facts. Sheesh. DE said "Unless I am missing something major, this seems like a gross overreaction", thus hedging and softening his statement not one but two different ways. Seems like MarnetteD's objection to the use of gross overreaction was an overreaction, if perhaps not a gross one. MHO. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support unblock per the above. I have the same problem, as many of the IPs used by my mobile device are connected with known, long-time abuse accounts who use proxy IPs offered by my provider. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Really. This is an almost laughable case of jumping the gun. This thread needs to have "all the facts" and a reply from Ponyo before any decision is made on the block. MarnetteD|Talk 23:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I travvle a wholel ot so if i seem to jump accross the map, it's because i attend different sociological events including talks, as well as i'm currently in the process of moving to Vancouver so i can get better care for my mesothelioma. So if people see me on bad Ip's, then you know why. I'll do my best to remember to log in from now on if that's the issue. 209.202.4.50 (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Please use spellcheck before saving your comments. Viriditas (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I’ll do that from now on, apologies I’m sure that ponyo’s a good person and I have nothing at all against them, nor do I wish to attack them in any way. I only want to know why they are charging me for a murder I did not commit.

Claudia 209.202.5.171 (talk) 04:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I've attempted to contact Ponyo several times to ask him/her the reason for this block, and my post on his/her page gets promptly deleted and i get promptly blocked. I then sent an e-mail to their account using the e-mail this user function, no response, and it's been one week, which is plenty of time to get back to me. If something was truely wrong then i think Ponyo would have explained it or would be willing to explain it to me. Instead, i question, the question is deleted, i get blocked and have to go accross town to have any chance of defending myself, it's madness is what it is. I really hope Ponyo replies to this or is at least willing to leave a message on my account's talk page with an explanation, else i be unblocked or at least the 199 IP be unblocked. I'd highly recommend that if people suspect any bad activity that they first notify the user of this activity and how they came to that conclusion before they even think about blocking and speedy-deleting it. Even with 34 years of studying psychology and sociology behind me i still don't understand how this could be considered benefitial to Misplaced Pages in any way. Again, i don't think Ponyo's a bad person, i just want to know why he/she screams bloody murder when i did nothing wrong to my knowledge. I admitted my mistake to Ponyo and that should be enough. End with a "don't do i again please" then move on, not "block her," then move on and hope that this goes away. I came here with the intent to help Misplaced Pages, and help it i shall, I'd like to follow the rules while doing it and if problems arise, i want a chance to address them before any punishment of any kind is dished out. That's all i ask Ponyo, you're a good person, but you made a mistake. Sorry if i seem angry in this post, it isn't intended to be any form of attack, i'm just stating things from my point of view that's all. Good night, i have a long day tomorrow and won't be able to reply for a while after, i'm going to be away untill the 8th, so won't be able to reply back untill then. Thank you guies for your help.

PS, don't edit when you're using a smaller touch screen and you have big hands, it's a nightmare to correct. Claudia 209.202.5.171 (talk) 06:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

In case User:Ponyo didn't see the notification from the name-dropping earlier in this thread, I've left a note on their talk page asking for their input here. @MarnetteD: I agree with you that we should not unblock before making more of an effort to get all of the facts. And probably my "gross overreaction" was not a sufficient assumption of good faith: what I should have said was that we are no doubt missing some important piece of information, because if we look only at the evidence we already have then this has the appearance of a gross overreaction, but that seems unlikely given Ponyo's history of working the sockpuppet beat. However, until we see the evidence we should assume Claudia's good faith as well. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello all. Sorry for the late reply, I've been sick since Thursday and only logged on briefly to put up a wikibreak template as I won't be able to get back to regular editing for at least another 2 - 3 days. In an abundance of caution I have emailed Callanecc a detailed explanation of the evidence behind the block in order to avoid any possible privacy breaches. That being said, I have absolutely no doubt that "Claudia" is indeed a sock of a LTA account and that you are all being trolled. The messages from the 209.202.5.171 IP are textbook to many posted previously by the same sockmaster. It's striking that a mother with "34 years of studying psychology and sociology" displays the same blatant grammar and spelling errors as their blocked "son" as well as the many other personas they've used in the past couple of years to try to get around the block. The master account has been referred to BASC many times in the past - they know the path to a potential unblock if they want to pursue it. --Jezebel's Ponyo 22:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

That may be so. But I am far more concerned with the lack of responsiveness, the appeal to secret evidence, the lack of non-admin oversight, and the transparency of blocking rationale, than I am with the effort made by one individual to resume editing. I have seen far too many false accusations made against users with trumped up, or in some cases, zero or invented evidence, to make a case, rather than actual evidence that the community can look at. This need to invoke secrecy, to claim that one is guilty before being proven innocent, sets a terrible precedent. Blackstone's formulation should be the guiding principle, with WP:ROPE our method. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a reason checkuser evidence is not publicy available. If we arent able or willing to trust the judgements that the users who can review this information make with regards to it then there are n awful lot of people who claim they arent socks who we are going to have unblock. CU evidence is one of those things that is given access to people who have shown suitable judgement and consensus for the tools by the community and on that basis I thik some level of trust has to be offered to those who can use it and the decisions they make from it. Amortias (T)(C) 23:53, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the newbie, wet behind the ears response, but I know how CU works. However, I will once again reiterate, the slow response to this user's request, the appeal to secret evidence, and the notion that the average editor cannot be trusted to comprehend a simple argument for keeping a user blocked, is and remains a serious problem. This authoritarian approach runs counter to the operation of a free society, to just application of laws, and to democratic oversight and transparency. As such, I do not agree with them or their application, no matter what the given rationale continues to be; time and time again, I have seen this kind of power corrupt "trusted" people, and evidence can be used to block the innocent, both intentionally and unintentionally. You may embrace this kind of unjust system, but I do not. There was no harm in unblocking this user, and a case could have been made that did not reveal "secret" information to restore the block. There is more harm in your chosen approach than there is benefit. Viriditas (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This rhetoric is all good and well and I wish the world online and off was more in line with these sentiments. But I would have thought that someone who is not a newbie would certainly have encountered WP:NOTDEMOCRACY before now. I accept the except Ponyo's explanation of why they could not respond before today and I would hope that you are not suggesting that P made up an illness. The bottom line is what do you think is going to happen now. Ponyo is not going to be blocked. Unblocks are not going to be handed out to any IPs involved. The system here is not going to change based on this thread. It should be noted that editing is WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. As the person in question is, no doubt, enjoying all this fuss I would suggest that the thread be closed. MarnetteD|Talk 00:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

MarnetteD, it would help greatly if you would read what you link, as NOTDEMOCRACY has nothing to do with this discussion. I apologize if the phrase "democratic oversight" confused you, but you seem to have evaded my points (and those of two other editors) and launched into a litany of red herrings. I already made my points, and your response is extremely unhelpful. Why should Claudia remain blocked? If your answer is, "it's a secret and we can't tell you", then I will say again, that's unacceptable. Viriditas (talk) 01:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Ponyo doesn't want to tell you who the sockmaster is, because then you will know the geographic location of the sockkmaster. Named accounts are not linked to IPs to protect the privacy of the account holder. This protection of privacy is extended to everyone, even to long-term sockmasters and LTAs. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Like MarnetteD, I accept Ponyo's explanation (and the fact that there are reasons not to put certain kinds of sockpuppet investigation information in public places). As an unblock looks unlikely and there is no other administrative action to be taken, I think this thread is ready to be closed. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• I've looked at the evidence from Ponyo and I'm comfortable that the Claudia McHenry account and the 209 IP address are being used by an LTA sock master. As Diannaa says there's not a lot of information that I can give due to the privacy implications, especially because I'm not completely aware of how much information the sock master has released themselves. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks. I've never been interested in any private information, so that's a misunderstanding on the part of editors up above. What I'm railing against is the misuse of CU, either intentionally or unintentionally, and the "trust us, we're experts" line that non-CU's and non-admins are routinely spoon fed. I've seen editors falsely accused of being sockpuppets, and in my own case, I was falsely accused of being a sockpuppet by an admin on Wikinews who blocked me during a content dispute where he was involved, and then attempted to fabricate sockpuppetry evidence to keep the block in place. So I hope you understand that I am skeptical of so-called "trusted" members of the community, and I think that we need more safeguards in place to protect the accused. The burden is on those accusing Claudia, and if that burden can only be met in private, without community review, then I'm afraid this process is flawed and subject to abuse. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Topic-ban proposal for Robert Walker (2)

After a previous ANI-discussion, which ended stale-mate, Robert has continued his disruptive behaviour.

• 4 january 2015 he followed me at the Dzogchen talkpage diff. I asked him to stop Wikihounding me diff, which he didn't diff. He even admitted "Yes I did find this article by looking through your recent edit history, but that's in preparation for posting about your edits to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard" diff.
• 26 january he posted comments at the Anatta talkpage which I consider to be WP:HARASSMENT diff.
• I've warned him diff diff, which was supported by User:VictoriaGrayson diff.
• Thereafter he posted a similar message at User talk:ScientificQuest#In support of your edits of Anatta diff.
• I warned him again diff, where-after he popped-up at Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact.
• I warned him again diff.
• The thread at the fringe noticeboard was closed this morning, with a very clear conclusion.
• And now Robert opens a new disucssion (at the wrong page...) Misplaced Pages talk:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Not very happy about recent closure of debate, en passant attacking me again.

Enough is enough: I propose a topic-ban for Robert for Buddhism, Hinduism and India related articles. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

NB: RW also seems to be discussing this at Facebook diff. Or am I overreacting now? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support - enough. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Robert is now stalking Joshua Jonathan.VictoriaGrayson 14:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral as presented and at this time. Comment It isn't clear, at least without hearing from the subject, that a topic-ban is the right remedy, or that the scope of the topic-ban, as proposed, is appropriate. It is clear that at least one editor, Robert Walker, has conduct issues in the area of Buddhist-related topics. That was obvious a month ago. It was also apparent that there were content issues concerning Buddhism. At the time, I advised Robert Walker to request dispute resolution at the dispute resolution noticeboard concerning the Buddhist content issues. He continues to say that he plans to do that, but he has had plenty of time. At the time, I also recommended a restriction on his talk page privileges to restrict his use of walls of text; that was archived without resolution. It now appears, but I haven't researched in detail, that Robert Walker may be disruptively editing with regard to an India-related fringe theory about the origin of languages (that Indo-European languages originated in India rather than elsewhere). I don't see any connection to Hinduism. (The fringe theory is commonly supported by Hindu nationalists, but is not limited to Hindu nationalists.) I haven't researched the diffs by the filing parties in detail as to harassment. It does appear, based on first glance (without lengthy research), that Robert Walker is now stirring up trouble by campaigning for the involvement of new editors on his side of the controversy; and that raises the possibility that he has become a general trouble-maker for whom a block or a site-ban is more appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - In view of the following thread about the Vedic period, it appears that this combination of content issues and conduct issues may have spread to the point where the ArbCom should be asked to open a case. arbitration enforcement is needed under WP:ARBIPA with respect to India-related issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support in order to prevent "silent interaction", that is, following JJ and opposing without making the interaction obvious. This stalking needs to be dealt with. The combination of a topic-ban and an interaction ban is less drastic than a site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Send to arbcom. After seeing the explosion of anger at the FTN thread it seems clear to me that arbcomm could at least allow for discretionary sanctions so that administrators could act to stem the tide of aggravation that our good faith content contributors are experiencing. !Voting to ban this one editor is only a bandaid on a wound much too large for a bandaid. jps (talk) 17:59, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Discretionary sanctions are already in force for everything India-related. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Buddhism isn't subject to discretionary sanctions except in the country of its origin, which is not primarily a Buddhist country. The issue about the origin of Indo-European languages does have to do with whether they came from India or went to India. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

If discretionary sanctions are in place then we should send this over to WP:AE. If they aren't, then we should ask arbcom to broaden them. jps (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The basic problem is that I cleaned-up the Karma in Buddhism article, and Robert didn't like that. He wants a roll-back to the version before my clean-up, and a discussion of my edits, without wanting to participate in that discussion (the talkpahe already contains extensive explanations of my edits, and they are supported by several competent editors). He's been filling several talkpages now with his demands, repeating over and over again that I'm a POV-pusher who's ruining articles. He's also stating for a couple of months now that he's going to file a DRN-request, without doing so. And now he's started to canvass other editors, and trying to re-open a debate about which he knows nothing at all, en passant attacking me again. So, I'm through with him. Let him use the normal dispute resolution, that his, file his DRN, or just stay away. But not attacking me over and over again, without even remotely trying to or engaging in a form of concencus-building. He's only making it worse and worse. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:17, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Joshua Jonathan has given three diffs as instance of Robert Walker harrassing him: 1, 2, 3. I am afraid I do not see any uncivil language or attack. --AmritasyaPutra 09:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment Further comment on the third link provided by Joshua as proof of harrassment: well, a discussion getting closed in less than 24h with a clear verdict is a mockery of a discussion. I also think the appeal is fully justified and a patient hearing is due instead of attack on those who chose to question the closure. Or rather haunting those who questioned the closure is a clear case of attack as it has been done rightfully within due limits in a civil manner. --AmritasyaPutra 09:49, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment Amritasya, I'm talking about "harassment": following me around, stating at various talkpages that I'm a POV-pusher who's ruining articles, without substantiating those comments. What he also did when he requsted to reopen this debate, suggesting that I'm biased and a poor editor. As if I'm the only one thinking, no, recognising, that the "Indigenist" position is fringe, or that I'm incompetent. I think it's quite clear from my edit-record that I'm a competent editor. So yes, when those kind of insuniations happen again and again, it feels like an attack. Robert keeps repeating "I'm working on a DRN", but we're still waiting. Instead of brandmarking me, he should actually try to resolve his "dispute". He's not doing so; he's only repeating his allegations. So yes, I've had enough of it.

Regarding reopening the debate: at third thought, I think it might be a good idea to re-open it, to settle this once and for all. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I can only follow the diffs that you provided. Provide more diff to substantiate the "harassment", those three diff are not harassment. --AmritasyaPutra 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I have only encountered Robert Walker at Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Proposed Hypothesis/Theory as fact, where I can say that his statements only muddled waters and didn't contribute to resolution. He didn't say a single word about the issue, the claim that the Indo-Aryan migration theory is a "fringe theory," and started quoting readers' reviews from Amazon while ignoring professional reviews. If he is doing this kind of thing everywhere to User:Joshua Jonathan, whose contributions are simply outstanding, e.g., , then he is being simply disruptive. Kautilya3 (talk) 12:31, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment Instead of guessing, check edit history and come up with diffs. Speculating with assume-bad-faith is not done. --AmritasyaPutra 15:46, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the samples provided by User:Joshua Jonathan and have no reason to distrust his statement about the general pattern. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Neither do I. Those diff are not attack that anyone can see. It should be simple to provide diffs, since it is being requested. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutra 05:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Scroll trhough the following talkpages:

• Talk:Karma in Buddhism
• Talk:Four Noble Truths
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Buddhism
• User talk:Robertinventor
• User talk:Dorje108
• Talk:Dzogchen

If you think that's too much, here's the diff for the Dzogchen talkpage. Here's my intitoal response, in which I already noted his Wiki-hounding. Also read Jim's response. He even admitted "Yes I did find this article by looking through your recent edit history, but that's in preparation for posting about your edits to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard" diff. Also have a look at the history of the Zogchen talkpage to see ho he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and ad infinitum.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for detailed, clear response. Now it makes sense. Wikihounding. I have faced it too. I hope admins take appropriate action, I have withdrawn my oppose vote in-place. Thanks. --AmritasyaPutra 06:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - This is Jonathan's second attempt to intimidate Robert and prevent him from submitting a DNR related to Jonathan's edits. - Dorje108 (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

"Skip the "intimidate", and try to understand, for one time, what's going on. And if you want to help Robert post his DRN, you could have closed your RfC weeks ago already, as I've asked you before. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support although I'd rather see a one-way interaction ban. To me the problem is that Robert Walker is following Joshua Johnson to pages that the latter has edited, and this disruptive behaviour needs to be addressed. While a topic ban would prevent RW from following JJ to pages related to this topic, it doesn't prevent RW from following JJ to other topics should JJ choose to edit them. However, a topic ban will prevent some such disruption and it's better than no remedy at all. Ca2james (talk) 16:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Interaction ban

I found Robert Walker's entry into the WP:FTN thread whose closure he has requested be reviewed, in the middle of the thread. I concur with User:Joshua Jonathan and User:VictoriaGrayson that he has been stalking Joshua Jonathan's edits, since WP:FTN is not a place he had previously edited. Recommend a one-way interaction ban on interactions of Robert Walker with Joshua Jonathan. That is, Robert Walker may not respond to any posts by Joshua Jonathan. This may seem harsh, but following another editor is harsh. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Along with the topic ban proposed by Joshua Jonathan.VictoriaGrayson 16:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - as well as the topic ban that I supported above. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support as Robert Walker is clearly following Joshua Jonathan and disruptively inserting himself into conversatios where he has shown no previous interest and has a lack of expertise. I'm not convinced a topic ban is necessary because once he stops following the other editor around, his disruption in those areas should stop. Ca2james (talk) 18:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment But he still can posts at talkpages where I am active? I see a complication there... And if we interpret it strictly: what if he starts to engage a talkpage on a Buddhism or Hinduism related page, and I start editing there too? It would give me a strange kind of "privilege", as it means he would have to back-off. That's not fair, nor clear. So, I'm afraid a topic-ban is still more appropriate. Plus, indeed, also avoidance from my part of areas where Robert is active. Although, he's merely editing a very selective range of talkpages, so in practice this may work. Some admin-feedback would be welcome too, at least for me. Anyway, thanks for the efforts, Robert McC.! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Joshua is correct that a one-way interaction ban does work like that. It does not require any avoidance by Joshua. It is true that this is a harsh remedy, but stalking another editor is harsh. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. One-way interaction bans are fundamentally unfair. We should ban both of them if they've both been behaving badly, or if Robert's been the only one causing problems, we should block him. If JJ wants to antagonise RW, he can annoy him with impunity (like Foghorn Leghorn with the dog), and while if JJ acts in complete good faith, someone else could come in and cry "ban violation!" on a page where RW was still trying to obey the ban. See JJ's comment, too, "what if he starts to engage..." He's right. Too much room for wikilawyering and too much room for bad-faith participants to game the system. Nyttend (talk) 04:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Nyttend. To reiterate, one-way interaction bans are unfair. Either make the ban run both ways, or come up with a different solution. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment: why should I receive an interaction-ban, when Robert is following me around? I am already avoiding him. It might mean that the first one to edit on an article or talkpage "owns" the page. With due lack of humility from my side, it would be a loss for Buddhism and Hinduism-related pages if there is a possibility to stop me from editing on those pages in that way, because one editor objects to my edits. That would be basically unfair. So, if that option is to be ruled out, something else must be thought of. At least it should be clear to him that "dispute resolution" does not mean throwing around accusations at the pages where I am editing, and that he should actually post his DRN, instead of repeating he's going to do so. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that you ought to be banned: I meant that he shouldn't be I-banned from you unless you deserved to be I-banned from him, and that he ought to be blocked outright if he's been causing problems and you're innocent. Not having investigated the situation carefully, I don't want to support any sanctions on him or to oppose the idea of sanctions in the first place; that's why I offered no opinion about your proposed topic ban. I just want to ensure that any sanctions be reasonable and workable, and a one-way interaction ban isn't either of them. Nyttend (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Reply to topic ban

I want to keep this short as I have warned in the past about length of my post. Do I get a chance to reply? If you are interested in my POV on this proposal, please see reply to the topic ban. (Here I am using the third of my Work arounds for lengthy talk page posts which I developed in response to the previous ANI action.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertinventor (talk • contribs) 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I was posting this response but the topic was archived when I saved my edit; since this has been re-opened, I figure I'll post it now.

• DRN is for content issues, not conduct issues, and it isn't necessary to look through an editor's contributions to file for dispute resolution.
• Whether you went to a page because you found it by looking through his contributions or someone pointed you there, you went there because he was there and that's WP:WIKIHOUNDING, which isn't allowed.
• To me it looks like you don't like Joshua Johnson's edits or approach to editing and so you're following him to pages and posting about his edits. That's harassment and not allowed, and it's why I support the one-way interaction ban. If the iban isn't going to pass then I support a topic ban. Ca2james (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Requesting an Admin to assess and close the above discussions

Requesting an Admin to assess and close the above discussions.VictoriaGrayson 23:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Does Misplaced Pages offer corporate, real estate, hiring, banking and legal advice now? (Note: the neutrality of the wording of this very question is questioned)

Immediately after the swift closure of the discussion above on medical advice forbidden as professional advice by our disclaimer: "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area" we have a new thread requesting advice on setting up a new business venue, including the OP asking about, among other things: "finding providers for various maybe banking, legal, & accounting as well...hir contractors to build/modify the space, complying with applicable laws (permits, inspections, registrations, certifications, various filings)"

I have removed this question on the basis of the above decision that we do not give advice in contravention to our disclaimer.

Nevertheless, both the OP 173.49.17.60, and now Jayron32 diff have seen fit to reopen this discussion. Do we provide corporate, real estate, and legal advice, or don't we? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

(after EC) Your phrasing of the question is misleading--it tends to lead the reader to form the wrong impression about the nature of the dispute. You're mischaracterizing both the nature of my posting and the issue being disputed here. I did NOT request advice of any kind. The text you (Medeis) quoted is about what I expected a business executive would have to address when starting an office at a new location. I did not say I needed to address those issues, and I most definitely did not solicit advice on dealing with issues of those kinds. I invite anyone reading this to refer to my origin posting to read it in its entirety, in context. Given the absence of even a hint of an actual existing situation in which advice is needed, and in the total absence of any particulars about that non-existent situation, there's nothing for anyone to offer advice on.

What I asked about was how business executives acquire the needed expertise to handle the tasks that I expect needed to be handled. A possible relevant answer could be: many MBA programs include a course on managing the practical logistics of setting up an office, so many MBAs actually are educated in that subject. Another possible relevant answer could be: there's actually a consulting industry that addresses this need, the services offered are generally known by the names ABC or XYZ. Still another possible relevant answer could be: this is actually not as hard as you think; it's like house hunting, only a little harder. If someone could start with a local commercial real estate broker, the broker should be able to tell the client what other professionals to pull in for the project. None of these answers, I submit, amounts to offering (regulated) professional service.

I don't claim to be very familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies, but on the surface of it, it only seems to prohibit offering of medical and legal advice (and, I assume, advice whose dispensation is regulated by law.) In your edit to the original thread, you made a blanker comment calling my question "request for advice and speculation", without justification. When challenged to justify why my question supposedly violated Misplaced Pages policies, you just deleted the question. I am open to be shown wrong, but you never provided anything that amounted to an explanation of why my question supposedly violated Misplaced Pages policies. --173.49.17.60 (talk) 03:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Before Medeis started this discussion, I already had started a discussion at WT:RD and notified Medeis of that discussion. I have no horse in this race, and have no opinion as to the status of the post. I'm not sure why Medeis needs to have this discussion in two venues, especially since the discussion already exists in the more appropriate one. This is the last statement I will make on this matter, as I really don't care one way or the other, I just don't like to see unilateral decisions made for matters which are not clear-cut vandalism, trolling, or inappropriate medical/legal advice. Before medeis deleted the discussion, there was already people who noted it wasn't inappropriate in their opinion, and didn't cross the line. Where reasonable people disagree, one of those in the disagreement shouldn't act unilaterally. Status quo should remain until consensus is reached. If people do eventually agree something is inappropriate, then someone can take action. Otherwise, as I already have noted, I don't see why Medeis feels the need to hold this discussion in two places. --Jayron32 02:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I had started writing this report before I received Jayron's notice. Given there's no horse in this race, I am curious why Jayron accuses me of forum shopping. Given the time stamp of this edit advising the OP to see the decision above, before Jayron's thread in its edit summary, I find the accusation of forum shopping baseless.

I suspect Jayron may have innocently been ignorant of today's decision on not giving professional advice when it's medical, given he apparently did not read @Knowledgekid87:'s closure with advice to head the disclaimer above. Perhaps @Jayron32: will revert his re-opening of the thread given the discussion here? μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

As I said (and this is really my last comment) When the discussion at WT:RD plays out and people have had a chance to comment, decisions can be made. Otherwise, I don't really care. --Jayron32 02:27, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

There was no, and I emphasize no, request for advice of any sort (much less professional advice) in my question. Any policy against offering professional advice is irrelevant to the issue discussion here. --173.49.17.60 (talk) 03:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Medeis has misunderstood the RD question. The OP is *not* asking for legal advice etc. He is asking where a start-up with limited resources and experience could find such services, amongst others. That's a totally reasonable RD question. There is no ANI issue here and the proper place to review Medeis's actions is the thread at WT:RD. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This is not a request for professional advice of the kind the RD guidelines prohibit. There is no fault requiring administrator intervention here. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

We have already seen that at the RD talk page, the majority are for a lawless free for all, and even suggest that editors who obey the RD and WP policies on those desks should be discouraged from editing. The OP's question is as blatant a request for legal and finacial and other licensed professional advice as one can imagine:

"finding providers for various maybe banking, legal, & accounting as well...hir contractors to build/modify the space, complying with applicable laws (permits, inspections, registrations, certifications, various filings)".

If Jayron, doesn't want to address this here, that's fine, but it is being addressed, and we need eyes not involved with the violations that go on at the ref desks continually to police the desk, if the regulars cannot do so themselves. This is for the long term benefit of the RD itself, since eventually such advice is going to end up causing trouble for people who actually ask questions within its guidelines. μηδείς (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@Medeis: Stop quoting what I wrote out of context and stop mis-characterizing my request NOW! Your repeated acts of distorting what I said are outrageous and totally unacceptable. I invite anyone interested in this discussion NOT to take what Medeis (a.k.a. μηδείς) wrote in the above at face value, and read the original question posted on the Miscellaneous Reference Desk to form their own opinion. I'm confident that any reasonable reader will find what Medeis wrote in the above to be a gross distortion of what I wrote. --173.49.17.60 (talk) 07:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. There was no hint of a request for advice on banking, legal, accounting, or any of those other matters. The question (here it is again ) was, in a certain context, who would and how would they know about these things. Quite a different question, and quite unobjectionable in terms of any disclaimers, liability, or practicing-something-without-a-license concerns. —Steve Summit (talk) 15:16, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Expertscape

I have posted this in his talk page after he deleted ExpertScape page and stated" "speedy deletes are just like that".

==An Observation== Reading your posted census on your home page, it appears that you have deleted Misplaced Pages pages 5,000 times more than you have ever created any Misplaced Pages article. You have blocked and re-blocked users 2,000 times more than unblocking the users. How about the label "wiki-nator" for you, nothing sarcastic, just a neutral suggestion. S.Burntout123 (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

S.Burntout123 (talk) 04:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

How is this relevant to the noticeboard? Zhaofeng Li 04:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this directed towards @Nyttend:? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not; you can find it at User_talk:Bbb23#An_Observation. Nyttend (talk) 04:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree too then that I don't know why it is here on the noticeboard or what positive things can come from it in any case. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Not any more you can't. I removed it. You can, of course, look at the edit history if you're burning (no pun intended) to see it.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree too then that I don't know why it is here on the noticeboard or what positive things can come from it in any case. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The post was about the recent deletions by . I am told that some of Bbb23's today's deletions are being discussed here. I shared the mere fact that this editor has deleted articles 5,000 times more than he/she has created articles, and Bbb23 has blocked 2,000 more people than unblocked people. These data are posted on his/her talk page as the only data about this editor. I wonder if such a high ratio of delete to create can allow somebody to qualify for the privilege of being an "editor". If mentioning these data are considered inappropriate, then I am truly sorry and have learned something new. On the other hand, I, a random, low-tier user, am posing a serious questions to our astute editors and their unrestricted right to "speedy delete" hours (to days to months) of people's work. I look forward to be educated and to a healthy discussion (without hopefully being deleted speedily). Thank youS.Burntout123 (talk) 05:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the OP is pissed off about the deletion of Expertscape for lack of a credible assertion of notability, but fails to point out that the article has been deleted three times before, only one of those times by Bbb23. BMK (talk) 05:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

To shed light on the incident and to request astute editors to kindly review, Bbb23 deleted the article on "ExpertScape" despite contest to start a discussion and evaluation with due process. I asked Bbb23 to allow a period of healthy discussion and review but Bbb23 deleted the page without any discussion and only minutes after tagging it under "speedy deletion". https://en.wikipedia.org/Expertscape Upon requesting the opportunity to review, Bbb23 asserted: "No, speedy deletes are just that, speedy. They don't require a discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC)" In my opinion, and I may be wrong, "speedy deletes are just speedy deletes" would not qualify the action and may misrepresent the true spirit of "collaborative" nature of Misplaced Pages. Bbb23 deleted the article on "ExpertScape" despite contest to start a discussion and evaluation with due process and despite the request to allow a healthy period of review and discussion. Honestly I have no idea who or what runs the ExpertScape, and I am not even sure if this is a company or enterprise or autopilot web operation. I feel (and happy to discuss if I am not deleted or blocked) that "notability" is met here, since the nationally renowned medical centers and USA based medical schools refer to ExpertScape rankings. If so the Misplaced Pages is warranted to have a neutral reference about this. One would benefit from seeing an informative article that is not promotional but indeed critical and questions certain angles such as source of funding and other limits. The article was deleted only once before, it was then recreated after months of work and stayed on Misplaced Pages for several months until today where 2 editors deleted it within minutes of each other. I sincerely request a review and discussion not only on Template:ExpertScape but also on the fundamental question of the status of "editor" if one has deleted 5,000 times more than created articles. S.Burntout123 (talk) 05:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Have you actually requested a deletion review of the speedy deletion? —C.Fred (talk) 06:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the deleted article, and it looks like we haven't lost anything except some badly-supported promotional puffery. We're not here to host an ad for a website. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 06:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, C.Fred, and yes, I have filed "Requests for Undeletion" according to a great editor and await next step. I do not agree with TeonA... this is not promotional at all. If my original posting was promotional, then please go ahead and edit. It takes a lot of time and effort to edit and amend and improve, while it is more convenient to "just delete". As WP editors you have great responsibility which is beyond and above "delete". Look forward to a better and more tolerant world than discrediting and deleting the articles of low-tier users. Give us a chance to discuss and educate than calling something "badly-supported promotional puffery". Thank you all for your important contributions and editing efforts. S.Burntout123 (talk) 06:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Four admins in the last year have a different opinion of the article from yours: the three that deleted it, and TenOfAllTrades above. Since you have a vested interest in the article being in Misplaced Pages, and they only have a vested interest in following Misplaced Pages policies, I'm rather inclined to think that they are correct, and you are not.

By the way, what's your connection to the company? BMK (talk) 06:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• The user is confusing WP:DRV with WP:REFUND. He's been to the latter. Indeed, he's posted at least part of the article there, so we're still hosting an ad for the website. I realize you're all focused on whether the article should or should not have been deleted, but I'd pay just a little more attention to the user's conduct as the issue of the deletion doesn't even belong on this noticeboard except the user's claims that I've abused my powers because I deleted an article without due process and discussion, which, of course, is patent nonsense in the context of a speedy delete. I'm going off-wiki and I'll let those of you who are more patient than I deal with this as you will.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

May I ask to please not attack users. It is disruptive to accuse a user: <<<"so we're still hosting an ad for the website">>>. If there is any ad anywhere, then please go ahead and remove anything that sounds promotional, so that this discussion can remain focused on the fundamental 2 questions: (1) Speedy deletion of the article. (2) The qualification of an editor who has deleted 5,000 time more than he/she contributed to "editing" WP articles (and these are the data that Bbb23 has posted on his/her page, please visit Bbb23 home page). I truly look forward to be educated here and have immense respect for hardworking WP editors who contribute immensely in this treasure.S.Burntout123 (talk) 06:42, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

So, it's OK for you to attack Bbb23 by calling him the "Wiki-nator", but when he points out your conduct problems, that's somehow not allowed? I think not.

So, you socked in 2011 as User:Burntout1234, what's your relationship to User:Europeisme, who created the deleted article Burnt-out diabetes mellitus, a copy of which has been in your user space since 2010, despite your failing to work on it -- the only reason that deleted articles should be in userspace -- since 2011, despite your stated intention to do so in 2013. What is the relationship between this article and Expertscape? And, again, what is your relation to Expertscape? BMK (talk) 06:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure if it was the most appropriate time to attack me and my contributions and to delete my other works and projects. I truly feel harassed and ask for protection during this sensitive time asking that the focus on my fundamental questions about the legitimacy of certain editors are not diverted by going after my page. This reminds us of the IRS suddenly auditing 6 years of tax records when one has dares to question the government's actions in Vietnam. I have absolutely no relationship with ExpertScape and have no idea who these people you have listed are. I hope that we are not experiencing McCarthyism. Is this really the price a low-tier user has to pay for questioning the qualification of an editor who has deleted 5,000 more than contributing to articles? S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I had sent this editor to WP:UNDELETE under the impression they are "a process intended to assist users in restoring pages or files that were uncontroversially deleted via proposed deletion under speedy deletion criteria". They also handle userfication so it could be submitted through AfC which I thought would be better for this kind of editor and article. EoRdE6 07:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I truly feel harassed by several editors here and ask for support and protection and the right to ask the fundamental questions about editors who delete 5,000 times more than contributing to article. Hope the low-tier users are not supposed to stop questioning the editors as a contingency to survive. S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

You come here bitching and calling names, then complain about being harassed -- and in the complaint repeat the attack you started with. Beauty.

As noted on your talk page, I have nominated User:Burntout123/Burnt-out diabetes mellitus – a deleted article which was userfied to your userspace 4 1/2 3 1/2 years ago – for deleton, as you have had plenty of time to work it into an acceptable article and have not done so. The nomination can be found at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Burntout123/Burnt-out diabetes mellitus, and you can make your arguments there.

In the meantime, I suggest that an univolved admin might like to consider blocking Burntout123 for a short period of time if he repeats his attack on Bbb23 again. BMK (talk) 07:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Once again I am asking for help and protection against intensified harassment and attacks by certain editors. BMK just deleted my userified project with this message on his talk page: "Bullshit, you can't save the article by adding some crap you dug up in 5 second of Googling. BMK (talk) 07:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)"S.Burntout123 (talk) 07:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you added this one sentence to the article: "Since then over 50 papers have mentioned the term according to Google Scholar including in recent publications in New England Journal of Medicine in 2013, and there have been over 500 citations of the publications on burnt-out diabetes." and called it a "new version". BMK (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I've just deleted User:Burntout123/sandbox, a userspace copy of the article that was created with the AGF-destroying edit summary "Expertscape doppelgaenger as back-up for future deletions". I think it's pretty clear by now that this user isn't here for any reason other than to promote this website. —Cryptic 08:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadly the harassment has continued by these certain editors, while supportive and balanced editors do not appear to feel comfortable to say anything. The original questions have been overshadowed, and instead the low-tier users and their home page have been attacked and vandalized. I ask the true WP editors to protect the low-tier users against further attacks and public accusations and harassment. If a user dares to question the legitimacy of the editors who delete much more than contributing to WP, it is not professional to suggest to "block him for a short period" to teach the user a lesson. The very foundation of WP comes into question which such approaches, similar to the time when a government justify torture. Hope we control our emotions and biases and remain focused on the original questions: Can an editor be legitimate if he/she deletes thousands of times more than contributing to articles? Is the fundamental act of asking this question the reason to be blocked and to be harassed? S.Burntout123 (talk) 09:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Admins mostly carry out the tasks requested by others...at least as much janitor compared to the judge+executioner you presume it to be. I recommend you focus on what you actually want done and use diffs and other details of specific actions rather than than raising vague raw data claims (Lies, damned lies, and statistics). By policy, blocks are preventive not punitive--if you appear to be disrupting wikipedia, you'll be blocked so that the rest of us can get back to writing an encyclopedia. DMacks (talk) 09:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of destroying AGF, there's this gem: User:Burntout123/Neovandalism. Looks like the axe has been on the grind for a long time. --Kinu /_c 09:05, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the Neovandalism article – yet another userfied deleted article in Burntout123's user space – see this AN/I thread. BMK (talk) 09:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Snow deleted at AfD. BMK (talk) 22:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you going after the user and auditing the last 6 years of his/her tax return because he/she dared to question the government actions in Vietnam? Am I suddenly running out of time? Given these circumstances, I hereby request 4 weeks of protection to update and complete my userified projects, while requesting that they not be touched or deleted during this period including ExpertScape, Diabetes and Neovandalism. I truly ask that I and my pages be protected during this period of time. I am happy to stop further posting during this time. S.Burntout123 (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I won't respond to the nonsensical part of your comment, but I will point out that you've been here over 3.5 years and your attitude in most of your non-article edits is pretty much the same as it was in your first edit. Perhaps you should take a step back and consider whether it's not us, but you... and then determine whether a collaborative project such as Misplaced Pages is the right one for you. --Kinu /_c 09:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

One week is the standard for XfD. That should be plenty of time to find even a bare handful of actual reliable sources to support notability and prove an article/topic is minimally viable. One week, on top of however many previous years... DMacks (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks and will do. Can I ask that the deleted projects and pages be placed back for this period and nothing else be changed or deleted while we interrupt all postings and discussions by all parties for one week? I appreciate 7 days of protection and pieace and kindly ask others also to stop. Thank youS.Burntout123 (talk) 09:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, you can request that, but I doubt your request will be honored.

Regarding this user's behavior, reading this version of C.Fred's talk page from 2011 is very illuminating, especially when read in conjunction with this version of Burntout123's talk page from the same period. BMK (talk) 09:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Why don't you just store your prospective article on your PC and upload it when you think it's ready. Then there's no time limit. You can take 20 years to finish if you want. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the google cache of the Expertscape article and agree that the article is spam. I haven't examined the user's other contributions enough to call for a block, but the signs I've seen point that way. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This is being discussed on the User's talk page and things are moving in the right direction. Can someone please help the user understand how to copy/paste his local articles onto his PC and how to apply for a WP:REFUND for Expertscape. I'll be offline for several hours. Thanks, JoeSperrazza (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

To be frank, I'm not certain how this could be considered "the right direction". --Kinu /_c 18:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the discussion on his talk page, not his venting on his userpage, which I didn't see. If you think the user needs a WP:CIR block, propose it. Otherwise, I suggest that de-escalation (which the user has responded to favorably, in agreeing to most of my points) is better than a continued recriminations. If someone could invest a little time in helping to calm things down and help the user, that would be great. If every user responded to criticism on ANI by having a lightbulb go off above their head and then they reply clearly with "mea culpa" and a plan for improvement, we'd have a very different environment here than we know we have. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Since he's still asking fpr special immunity from normal Misplaced Pages processes, I'm not sure that you're really getting through to him at all. Considering that his behavior has been typical since the very beginning of the account, it's possible that you're tilting at windmills. BMK (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps so. I do believe if we can get him a userfied copy of Expertscape and if someone can help him figure out to copy the source for "Burned out diabetes", this issue would cease consuming people's time, for now. I admit, it is a good possibility there will be a problem in the future, but I WP:AGF that there might not be. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Page deletion request

Block?

A mop to Tarc's aisle, please. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Favonian. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:CIR block needed

ADHZ07111989 (talk · contribs)

User repeatedly created a hoax article about a later Sui dynasty (not the historical Sui dynasty, but a revival that lasted far longer) based on this alternate history Wikia. After being warned about it (repeatedly), he shows himself shifting to a singular focus in creating the article, refusing to hear out any warnings and continuing to ask people for permission and even help in creating a hoax article. When I explained what alternate history is, he cited sources about the historical Sui dynasty as if they were sources about the "later" Sui dynasty, and even sources about the Ming dynasty (which occupies the spot where the "later" Sui dynasty was supposed to be). And no, "Later Sui dynasty" is not an alternate name for the Ming dynasty.

To put this in perspective, this is like someone trying to create an article about the "second Ostrogothic empire" that occupied Germany from 962 to 1806, citing a video game Wikia and books (in their own language) either about the original Ostrogoths and the Holy Roman Empire. Either they're a troll or they're at a level of incompetence that cannot be described without violating WP:NPA. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)This is my argument:

Please visit the ctext.org and see there at Song-Ming section it is not about era of legacy Sui it is about Later Sui II " http://ctext.org/song-ming " upsurp at the era. See about the text above.

  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  *梁惠王章句上 page 6
  *西遊記 part 朱紫國唐僧論前世　孫行者施為三折肱
  *廣韻 Part 上平聲 Bab 支 Lineage 隨
  *廣韻 part 上平聲 Domain 脂 Title 伊
  *太平御覽,人事部五十六,《孝女》
  *《草木四》 Part 《叙牡丹》 Page 1
  *之 Part 葘
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.
  Hawley, Samuel (2005). The Imjin War. Japan's Sixteenth-Century Invasion of Korea and Attempt to Conquer China. Seoul: The Royal Asiatic Society, Korea Branch. pp. 195f. ISBN 89-954424-2-5.
  Turnbull, Stephen (2002). Samurai Invasion. Japan’s Korean War 1592–98. London: Cassell & Co. p. 244. ISBN 0-304-35948-3.
  Roh, Young-koo (2004). "Yi Sun-shin, an Admiral Who Became a Myth". The Review of Korean Studies 7 (3): 13.
  *鬼三十五 Part 《浮梁張令》
  *Dragon Tales: China’s History from Tang to Qing. Singapore: Singapore: Asiapac Books. 2006.

  *梁惠王章句上 page 6

  *西遊記 part 朱紫國唐僧論前世　孫行者施為三折肱

  *廣韻 Part 上平聲 Bab 支 Lineage 隨

  *廣韻 part 上平聲 Domain 脂 Title 伊

  *太平御覽,人事部五十六,《孝女》

  *《草木四》 Part 《叙牡丹》 Page 1

  *之 Part 葘

  *鬼三十五 Part 《浮梁張令》

I don't care about any fiction made from the Later Sui II Empire.

Please give me permission to make it or in exchange of that please help me make the article.ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

As I already explained, those are sources about the original Sui empire, or about the Ming dynasty. User refuses to leave Tlön. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'll wait for Nyttend to weigh in, but I smell a NOTHERE block coming a mile away. Drmies (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC) Dear sir/madam Please visit the ctext.org and see there at Song-Ming section it is not about era of legacy Sui it is about Later Sui II " http://ctext.org/song-ming " upsurp at the era. See about the text above.ADHZ07111989 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Those sources are about the Ming dynasty, not Sui II. You have become confused because of alternate history fiction you cited as the only source in the original draft of your article, and are now misinterpreting sources about the Ming dynasty. That or you're trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Giving the guy one more chance: I've told him to drop the subject entirely and edit on something else if he wants to continue, and if he does anything more on this topic, he'll get the indefinite block. Nyttend (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I work extensively on Chinese history and culture articles, and can verify that none of the long Chinese texts ADHZ07111989 cited above has anything to do with the so-called Later Sui Empire. This person seems to be obsessed with glorifying the Yang surname. In addition to Later Sui (Yang was the imperial surname of the historical Sui dynasty), he also created the pseudohistory Dương Dynasty (An Nam) (Dương is the Vietnamese pronunciation of Yang), and Yang (state), which was a historical entity but most information he added was genealogical legend that no historian would take seriously. -Zanhe (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This user has posted a (horribly malformed) WP:DELREV request here. I didn't want to unilaterally revert it, but I honestly don't feel it's worth fixing either, since it's apparently the same extended content that this user has posted at multiple locations, including above in the collapsed section. In other words, Nyttend, it looks like your advice to drop it fell on deaf ears. --Kinu /_c 06:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, check the timestamps: he hasn't edited since the advice was given. Nyttend (talk) 14:10, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, good call. I also see that the deletion review has been dumped. Here's hoping that's the end of that. --Kinu /_c 15:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Ban a person for vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History of the Romani people (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Dear administrator, I would like you to take notice of the 'history of romani people' page. A user by the name of 'Iryna Harpy' continually changes my edits of specificity. For example, I made specifications to where the Romani people had come from, India, which she changed to both India and Pakistan. This is factually incorrect as the genetic evidence of that section also proves that the romani are of Indian ancestry, and not of Pakistani. Moreover, their language is similar to Rajasthani in India and not of the languages of Pakistan. I would like you to stop Iryna Harpy's editing abilities, or ban her from Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybowden211 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, not 'vandalism', and you have been asked to discuss this on the article talk page - I suggest you do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism only account

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legitgrifer_Soft (talk · contribs) this is the latest account of Legitgrifer (talk · contribs). Eik Corell (talk) 18:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: WP:AI/V, or WP:SPI, as they are specifically designed to handle these types of complaints. -- Orduin 20:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

True, but indeffed for block evasion. Miniapolis 23:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Indigenous Aryans

I don't know if this is the right venue for this, but someone (an admin) needs to take a serious look at the article Indigenous Aryans. It is a fringe theory being pushed by religio-nationalists in India, but the article has grown to two or three times the size of an appropriate Misplaced Pages article. The theory-pushers (User:Bladesmulti in particular) have been editing so tendentiously that mainstream editors have simply been become frustrated and left. This situation and the article need some serious admin attention and a firm hand to bring the article under control. --Taivo (talk) 19:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Where's is your proof? And I have not extended the page or written even 3 sentences. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Try the fringe theory noticeboard that seems better placed as this appears to be a content issue. Amortias (T)(C) 19:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Not really. When this went to the Fringe Theory Noticeboard (it's been there before), it was again overwhelmed by the POV pushers and nothing was accomplished. It's not a content issue at all--it's a behavior and result issue. It's the kind of thing that Misplaced Pages is perhaps incapable of handling, but admin intervention is needed there. --Taivo (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Taivo, please. there's a RfC going on, and the opinions are quite clear that IA is fringe; wait for that RfC to close, and wait for me to cut down the size of the article. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Definitely best to wait for the RfC, but this is a real issue on many articles. Fringe theory proponents are usually very devoted, often here for the single purpose of pushing their theory (I've seen a lot of it at Christ Myth Theory the past months, but there are many examples). As Taivo says, the fringe proponents often manage to cause so much discussions and fights that ultimately everybody else leaves and they get their way. Better policies for fringe theories (in general) may be needed.Jeppiz (talk) 21:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, because this is something that is necessaril;y both a content and a conduct issue, and even ArbCom only handles the conduct issues. There is no higher authority to keep corrdinated fringe/ideology pushes at bay.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, Jeppiz, better policies on fringe theories would be very helpful. Thanks for noticing this, Joshua. I see that you have started working on keeping the size under control. --Taivo (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I am afraid I will have to disagree with the argument that Vedic People indigenism is a fringe theory. There is a legitimate question raised based on archaeological, linguistic, paleontological and generic evidences on the Aryan Migration Theory which was earlier accepted by dominant group of scholars as the Aryan Invasion Theory but changed to migration in "batches". This gradual change in the dominant view of scholars which has always been flux in history itself points to the legitimacy of the vedic indigenism argument which remains one of the postulates of the origins of vedic people. The usual attack on the Vedic Indigenism is that is it the work of so called Hindu Nationalists. This one label is used to simply discredit all the research which is done in this field. Unfortunately Misplaced Pages has become a battle ground for the same. The best way for wikipedia to build balanced articles is not to deny the Vedic Indigenism its due place in articles here, not as a dominant view but as another view. This is something that several historians have begun to accept I have provided a fair bit of evidence of the scholarly work done in this field Talk:Vedic_period#Issues_of_Dispute & Talk:Indigenous_Aryans#Oppose.Indoscope (talk) 08:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

According to Upinder Singh "The original homeland of the Indo-Euorpeans and Indo-Aryans is the subject of continuing debate among philologists, linguists, historians, archaeologists and others. The dominant view is that the Indo-Aryans came to the subcontinent as immigrants. Another view, advocated mainly by some Indian scholars, is that they were indigenous to the subcontinent." She acknowledges that "Subhash Kak has argued that the astronomical references in the Rigveda can be dated 4000-2000 BCE". She goes on to say "The date of Rig Veda remains a problematic issue." .

1. Singh, Upinder. [http://books.google.co.in/books? id=H3lUIIYxWkEC&pg=PA184&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false A History of Ancient and Early Mediaeval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century]. Pearson Education India. pp. 185–186. ISBN 978-81-317-1120-0. Retrieved 28 January 2015. {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing pipe in: |url= (help); line feed character in |url= at position 33 (help)

According to Aklujkar, Comparative-historical Indo-European linguistics is not, in theory or practice, a field where one view must always be at the expense of another view..Indoscope (talk) 08:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Aklujkar, Ashok. "Letter to S Farmer" (PDF). www.omilosmeleton.gr. Retrieved 29 January 2015.

Please discuss at Talk:Indigenous Aryans#RfC: the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is fringe-theory, not here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

General Comments on Fringe, and Specific Comments on the topic

The suggestion to discuss at the fringe theory noticeboard was a reasonable one, but was already tried a few days ago and was a complete failure, and illustrates the problem. A thread was opened on the subject of Indigenous Aryans. It promptly became disruptive, because, on the one hand, multiple editors agreed that the theory was fringe, but the proponent, User:Bladesmulti, replied to other editors at great length, essentially a filibuster. Then, because the thread became excessive, an administrator boxed the thread. A request was then posted at WP:AN to overturn the close, although a thread at WP:FTN does not have a formal close, so that the admin was not closing a discussion requiring closure, but simply boxing a disruptive thread. In the case in point, there already is an effective way to deal with the tendentious editing, and that is that this fringe theory is about the ancient history of India, and so is subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions at arbitration enforcement under WP:ARBIPA. Likewise, fringe scientific theories are subject to arbitration as pseudoscience. The question that maybe should be discussed at Village pump (policy) is whether we need better policies on fringe theories in general, or whether arbitration and arbitration enforcement is a satisfactory approach in general. In this particular area, I would advise anyone who thinks that the editing is disruptive to go to arbitration enforcement under WP:ARBIPA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 03:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

LGBTory

Would be helpful if an administrator could intervene here as it doesn't look like I'm going to get anywhere. Several names were added to the patrons list at LGBTory (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) by 213.105.80.22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), but that do not appear in any source. This may be a deliberate WP:BLP violation but I do not know enough about the individuals listed to determine if being supporters of LGBT topics might be electorally damaging to them. I reverted this, initially assuming edits were good faith and offering to include citations if they needed help. Now SleepCovo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is carrying on where the IP user left off, with similar behaviour: ignoring requests for conversation; reverting changes back to the version that matches the cited source; removing all warnings posted to their talk page; and now trying to rename the article section to get around this problem. The rename doesn't help, as it similarly fails verification for citations and is unencyclopaedic. Both accounts seem to have form for this kind of behaviour. ~Excesses~ (talk) 22:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the edits they are claiming that these people could be LGBT, which is definetly a BLP problem if unsourced. You cant claim someone is something without sourcing it. Amortias (T)(C) 22:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• SleepCovo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked 24h and given an unambiguous warning. Consider WP:RFPP if anons return. Guy (Help!) 23:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)—

Reopened

• The original user has been blocked for BLP violations (the blocking admin said for "scurrilous allegations of living individuals" - sad that "being LGBT" is a scurrilous allegation, but I suppose even in the UK we're not there yet). However, all the names they added to the article were of those Conservatives that are openly gay or bisexual (check their articles). Of course, it is wrong (or at least unsourced) to say they were patrons of the LGBT organization, but I hardly think this was a BLP violation, simply an error on their part. Thoughts? Black Kite (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• "scurrilous allegations" almost sounds like an attack, but since we permit virtually all our lists of people to leave sourcing to the articles (if at all), it is no wonder that a newby would think it perfectly fine editing in accord with practice, while technically against policy (which is less likely to have been read or understood). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:14, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
• It would be a better policy to have a no lists with people without reliable sources showing that the person belongs on such a list, without worrying about whether it's "contentious" or not; but WP prefers more content more than better sourcing. IMHO... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Jermbollano

I request immediate blocking of this user for uncivil communication and edit warring on Comparison of European road signs. Please also be aware of a sockpuppet investigation I initiated against this user yesterday. They have also been blocked on Commons as a sockpuppet under the DUCK test. Fry1989 00:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm. Well, I don't really block for one occurrence of "motherfucker", but I did revert. I think that SPI is going to be taken care of soon enough; the poor grammar skills of the two editors you listed there are quite similar. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting. If this is who I believe it is, this has been a sock problem for several years now. Fry1989 02:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Those global locks are interesting. I don't know what they mean for us--for example, I would still be interested in CU for that SPI; if you are correct, then CU information can be quite valuable and a global lock based on DUCKish behavior isn't going to uncover the alternate accounts. Then again, it's not the sharpest sock in the drawer...and there are some pretty blunt socks in the drawer, let me tell you. Drmies (talk) 05:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Requesting a IBAN

I'm requesting a IBAN between myself and ATinySliver (talk · contribs) after wikihounding me at RfP, twice actually. Just because I nominated an article he contributed to for deletion doesn't mean he should go and undermine everything else I am doing. It was the first time he ever commented at an RfC so it was kinda obvious. When I mentioned it on his talk page he reccomended I do it so here I am. EoRdE6 03:15, 2 February 2015‎ (UTC)

No further comment. —ATinySliver/ 03:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Two comments on Requests for permissions do not comprise Wikihounding.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:07, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconded. I agree, SarekOfVulcan. @ATinySliver:, though you must be smug because you didn't get threatened, you might appreciate the fact that he saw your edits as an act of aggression. Next time, try to explain your edits instead of getting into battleground mentality as you did with your "Just do it" reference. It wasn't a very civil thing to do. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 17:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You are in error; smugness was not the motivation, nor is it the result. Given the circumstances, the response seemed appropriate. Next time I'm among the recipients of a blatant lie by someone who suggested he might have speedied the article himself had he possessed a set of keys, I'll endeavor to provide a more measured response. —ATinySliver/ 19:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

He tried to get that article zapped and was soundly defeated. No need to rub his nose in it after the fact. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:10, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

user:NiranjanUltrasound - possible block evasion

NiranjanUltrasound (talk · contribs) is under an indefeinte block for spamusername, but appears to have reappeared as Tepp Niranjan (talk · contribs). File:Colordopplermagazine.jpg has been previously uploaded by iranjanUltrasound (deleted), and then has been uploaded again by Tepp Niranjan, and their content contribution seems to be there to promote Niranjan Ultrasound, so it's very likely the same person. No request was ever made for a name change under the original name -- Whpq (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Definite block evasion - it's the same person. I guess, you'll have to wait till an admin checks this thread and blocks them as a sockpuppet of NiranjanUltrasound (talk · contribs). --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 17:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Persistent harassment, sockpuppetry, and vandalism by long-term disruptive editor

The following accounts/IP addresses are relevant to this report:

• K6kaisme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• K6katherollback (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• K6kaisbacktorollback (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• K6kaisasockpuppet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• K6ka19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ChristmasHaterK6ka19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• FredisK6ka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ilovethesims5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 50.82.40.187issorry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• CoryMach (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• CoryMach2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• CoryMach3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• CoryMach4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 50.82.40.187 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Before I get redirected to WP:SPI, I would like to clarify that 1. Yes, all found sockpuppets are currently blocked, and 2. This is more of a long-term disruption issue than one for SPI. But to get things clear, I'll need to start from the beginning:

The issue originates at The Sims Wiki on Wikia, where IP 50.82.40.187 vandalized the wiki. As I am an administrator over there, I blocked the IP address from editing (see block log). One month later, the IP vandalized the wiki again, and was blocked again as a result. The user has since then tracked me down to Misplaced Pages, where they began vandalizing. They often leave me talk page messages asking to be unblocked from The Sims Wiki, or issue threats to create more sockpuppets if I didn't become a bureaucrat. Since then they have been creating new sockpuppet accounts on both Wikia and Misplaced Pages and is starting to become a real pain.

The issues on Wikia are mostly none of our business (I'll deal with those) but those on Misplaced Pages are becoming disruptive and annoying, and the user is continually coming back for additional harassment and trolling.

Administrator or experienced editor advice would be appreciated in resolving this situation. Thanks. --I am k6ka _{See what I have done} 16:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe there's no need for a SPI here (if you just want them blocked). The editing pattern and evidence is enough to support the conclusion, that they're sockpuppets of the sockmaster. I would however recommend, a CheckUser to verify the IP ranges to do an IPRangeBlock if possible, in which case a SPI is required. I am not an administrator, so I don't have the necessary powers to do anything. I recommend you do the latter to get an autoblock issued. However, if your sockpuppets are unfortunately on dynamic IP ranges or clever enough to use a VPN, then you'll have to deal with it. Then, we'll have to go with Long-term Abuse and file a report with the ISP. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 17:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Per , this is almost certainly user:Cmach7 who has been at it for 3 years now. Nothing new to add, just connecting this new sockfarm to an older sockfarm. —Soap— 23:04, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Copy/paste move with copyright violations

A user editing as both Koko Nigel and 175.XXXXXXX copy/paste moved Melanophryniscus stelznerni to Melanophryniscus stelzneri. (As near as I can tell, the new name is correct.) Additionally, the editor has copy/pasted text from sources in numerous instances. As a result, we need a copy/paste move cleanup and a revert to the January 15, 2015 version. Once that is completed, normal editing can work out whether this is about Melanophryniscus stelzneri or Melanophryniscus dorsalis, I guess. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that the previous name you wanted to point us at was Melanophryniscus stelzerni , not Melanophryniscus stelznerni . David Biddulph (talk) 16:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Correct. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• This user is a problem who focuses on adding "keeping in captivity" non-encyclopedic and unsourced information to reptile articles; see AN archive. The actions look minor but the copyvios are persistent and when pressed, the bogus edits are extreme—the deleted Salamanders as pets was a blatant hoax at one stage (the text was copied with bogus changes from here). Two edits at the user's talk were very dubious: diff and diff. Johnuniq (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• The user was previously blocked for a variety of problems and many of those continue. I gave them a final warning before coming here. As to whether or not more needs to be done at the moment, I am not !voting. - SummerPhD (talk) 23:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

User Is not a

Is not a (talk · contribs)
WP:NOTHERE Attempts to obstruct and my participation and disrupt sourcing discussions at notice boards, doesn't address content issue at hand, asking me to stop looking for sources.

Insinuates I’m associated with Larouche, making a personal attack and casting aspersions.

Denies evidence of my association with Larouche, harps on about defamation, suggest blanking the page in his edit summary.

WP:IDLIUser Is not a (talk · contribs) appears to think that Misplaced Pages should not have BLPs in the first place, because he doesn't like them.
I have tried to ignore him.

Fails to follow WP:CONSENSUS, WP:BRD and WP:PUBLICFIGURE
Removes this tertiary source, which has been in the article continuously, it appears, since May, 2007, when it was first added as an External link here, and then used as a reference in January 2008 here.
He failed to get consensus for the removal on Talk, claiming that it was an “attack site”. I decided it didn't need to go in the article anyway, as it was a tertiary source and other sources could be used in the main body, and added it back as an external link after he removed another external link, and I was reverted without discussion, with a threat of taking me to AN/I while repeating a BLP claim he has refused to answer queries about. I re-reverted, he didn't file the AN/I, but simply reverted again.
Finally, he has made some spurious claims in an attempt to derail a topic ban appeal I have pending at AE.
--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 17:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I shall leave this to others to discuss, since I am busy. Administrators should read the talk pages of the associated articles and at WP:BLPN and note that Ubikwit's SPI investigation request was closed with a suggestion that Ubikwit read the SPI description before filing another. Ubikwit received similar advice on at least one occasion here. is a 17:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

That must just be an action of poor judgement. Otherwise, can you give us the diffs. in a list, so that it's easier to review. I can understand your exasperation but if enough, admins will declare an IBAN. Till, then fix this thread, please. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 17:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The user "is not a" arrived at Misplaced Pages with longstanding experience and knowledge of old Misplaced Pages matters. I got very suspicious when this supposedly new person mentioned the incorrigible sockmaster Herschelkrustofsky here. This is not a new user; usually such persons are evading a block or ban rather than simply abandoning an old registered account in good standing. Binksternet (talk) 18:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I would rather focus on content issues at appropriate talk pages, but here let me give an example of the biases I have been trying to clean up at the BLP Robert Kagan:

With this edit Binksternet truncated "the realist tradition of Hans Morgenthau and Reinhold Niebuhr rather than neoconservativism", omiting "rather than neoconservatism", changing the skeptical writer's point: "Kagan largely eschews neoconservative theology and instead sounds themes reminiscent of the great American realists Hans Morgenthau and Reinhold Niebuhr".

is a 23:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

OMG! Binksternet!! What are you doing!!!! Don't you know that WP:AGF requires you to throw away all your accumulated past experience and treat this editor like a long-lost friend, your best buddy from college or your cousin you haven't seen in years? Ask him in, serve him tea and crumpets, put him up for the night -- nevermind that your Spidey-sense is tingling away to beat the band, that he arrived at your door with a blackjack and brass knuckles, you must give him (or her) the benefit of the doubt. Not very cricket, sniffing him out like that. BMK (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, alas, has had major problems in the past with edit war behaviour, and has been cited for such by ArbCom. On Neoconservatism he has 4 reverts in just over two days, in Robert Kagan he has 4 reverts in just over two days, and so on. Some of his edits on Kagan were clearly problematic in the past, was a revert to call Kagan "Jewish", etc. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree somewhat. Both editors have been problematic on this page. I am not made a slew of edits removing any neocon reference and spamming templates. But they've correctly removed some EL and other BLP issues. Same with Ubikwit; some good edits, some not (like the one Collect linked above). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: Collect referred to an edit regarding a BLP issue I had encountered for the first time, with respect to which consensus was reached on this Talk thread there is other relevant background here and here. Owen (talk · contribs) appears to have "recused" himself from the article due to the dispute over that issue.

Meanwhile, regarding this exchangestarting herebefore being hattedhere, the text on the page could only have been in English because there is not Japanese translation of the book, and no translation function. Is that gaming the system (claiming he can't read the source)?

@EvergreenFir: By the way, this link is to a Facebook page.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 23:12, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks... copy-paste fail. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

With these links, Ubikwit documents his discussion about "double loyalties" to Israel and the USA of American Jews, his linking to an antisemitic site, and his other soapboxing about American Jews and others adopting a "democracy" argument for supporting military aid to Israel and opposing aid e.g. to Egypt, the topic of The Israel Lobby.

This is so distasteful, that I'm done here. Do what you want, here in public.

is a 23:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@Is not a: those are serious allegations. Please substantiate them or strike your comment. And by substantiate I do not mean refer to some unspecified link somewhere else in the discussion. Gamaliel (talk) 23:57, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

is a 00:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@Is not a: So you linked to somewhere else where you made this accusation? And then I followed your link there and I was unimpressed. Let me try to make this simpler and take this one step at a time: Specify, here, by name, with your next edit, the anti-Semitic site allegedly linked to by Ubikwit, or strike your comments to that effect. Gamaliel (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: Those are grounds for immediate block. See no reason to humor this user. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Conduct of Dan56

Dan56 (talk · contribs)

User repeatedly violates WP:POINT, WP:AGF, WP:OWN, is stubbornly Wikilawyering, and repeatedly edit wars in the process as he willfully pushes his view without considering other editors' input.

• AGF: , , ,
• Recent edit warring, & WP:POINT in article editing (in the first diff, he disruptively removes reviews I'd added from the album ratings box) - chronologically: + my response: + ; + ; + + + ; + + + (←linked to Wikiproject discussion in which he said himself recently it was only a guide)

I'd addressed his behavior in article and talk page with a cordial message on his page, asking him to stop disrupting and start working collaboratively.

I know I have a disadvantage here as Dan56 has promoted many GAs or FAs (reading over ANI, that apparently tends to give you automatic pardon of Wiki guideline violations), but this user has a history of eschewing collaboration, of disruptive and tendentious editing, pushing POV, OWN attitudes, WP:battleground, disrupting editing to make a point, not assuming good faith, genre warring, accusing others of what he is exactly doing or has done, and many editors have called him out on his behavior and editing practices in the past, on various article talk pages (particularly RfCs). Dan56 evidently is not interested in changing his behavior as he feels his promotion of GAs absolves him of any responsibility for his actions and that he's potentially answerable to no one (as his unsanctioned acts would lead him to believe), evidenced, recently, here and here. Most of my encounters with him have been on the band Garbage's articles, at which he arrived about 7 months ago after being canvassed by another editor (who possibly didn't know about the policy then) in a content discussion, and where he willfully employed the same editing tactics and violations he's still willfully and freely employing.

Please see see this relevant RfC here, which is the (recent) source of this dispute, and where much of the aforementioned is evident further. Dan56 does not appear to want to contribute to a collaborative, disruption-free environment at this band's pages, where he has quarreled with me and engaged in all the aforementioned countless times. My request is a topic ban for this band's articles. What he's contributed (e.g., copy edit of reviews, date formats) (by essentially shutting out others, really) can just as easily be and have been contributed by myself or any of the other editors watching the article. And, as I pointed out in the RfC, If Dan56 had actually bothered to give me a minute or two to copy edit and fix issues and continue improving and augmenting the article, as opposed to just reverting and disrupting constructive edits none of that would occur. Of course, that appears to not be in his nature, particularly for these Garbage articles, for which he, going by all prior indication, has a bias against. --Lapadite (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Lapadite77 is personalizing a dispute which stems from my involvement at Talk:Garbage (album)#Album genres and the subsequent RfC for those genres, which didn't go Lapadite's way exactly, partly because I was invited by Andrzejbanas to weigh in and sided with him. Last October (), I began cleaning up and expanding a section at Version 2.0 and have been involved there since. My recent revisions to Lapadite's edits were justified by guidelines I don't feel he can fully grasp at the on-going RfC, where he canvassed two of his recent collaborators at other "Garbage" articles to weigh in. Lapadite argued for his version of the article by drawing comparisons to other stuff in the RfC, so I dont believe he had any intention to drastically trim and properly paraphrase the quote farm he added to the article in question. The section in question is essentially complete, considering the notability of the reviewers and the viewpoints researched, so this is appears to be another attempt at creative control. Dan56 (talk) 02:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

31.48.73.38 hounding Wtshymanski

31.48.73.38 repeatedly reverting Wtshymanski in multiple articles:

...including one flurry of reverts at a rate exceeding one per minute:

Technical notes: IEE-488 is not a serial protocol. Commodore incorrectly described it as such as a marketing ploy (pretending the Commodore had an IEE-488 port when the truth was that you could buy an extra-cost serial to iEEE-488 converter). Also. Countertop is not a chemistry article and thus Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (chemistry) does not apply.

31.48.73.38 Taunting/insulting Wtshymanski:

Warnings:

I suspect that this is a continuance of an existing fight under another username or IP address, but I don't feel comfortable naming names without better evidence than I have been able to find. --Guy Macon (talk)

--Guy Macon (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Simple edit-warring (see Countertop), hounding, tendentious editing and either a fail of WP:COMPETENCE in restoring Wtshymanski's vandal reversion so as to restore obvious vandalism, or else being so blinded by their hounding as to lose track of the overall WP benefit.

Throw them to the wolves. We've all got better things to be doing. Probably a sock with a grudge too. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Block request

Hi

Looks like a fairly blatent case of not here.A block might be in order to prevent more disruption. Amortias (T)(C) 20:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The user has only made two edits, but, I will be keeping an eye on him if it spreads. -- Orduin 21:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Might be worth checking deleted contributions as im sure I marked some pages for Speedy they were screwing with yesterday. Amortias (T)(C) 21:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I think only his past talk page was deleted. -- Orduin 21:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Am going to have to slow down reviewing stuff so my memory can catch up. Amortias (T)(C) 21:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

David Adam Kess

David Adam Kess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) may appear to be a good faith editor but is lacking competence, especially in financial topics. David Adam Kess has decreased the quality of every finance article he edited by adding irrelevant, off-topic content, adding useless and redundant citations often copy-pasted from the on-topic articles, and messing up the edit histories with his irrelevant spam of code fragments and characters.

For example, there is a book about high-frequency trading that I am familiar with, Flash Boys. In this article, David Adam Kess messed up the section headings by adding "3.1 Impact, Desribing Dark Pools" and "3.2 Impact, Desribing High Frequency Trading". Think about this for a second: The impact of a book is that two other topics, dark pools and high-frequency trading are described? Nevermind the typo and improper capitalization in both headings, a consequence of the user's copy-pasting, often cross-pasting the same irrelevant text into multiple articles.

Edits like these are typical for his contributions to finance articles. Notice the prose: "Desribing Dark pools is described in amazing detail in the book, writer Michael Lewis describes how when a Pension fund (...)" As usual, David Adam Kess also added the same text to this article and who knows how many others. Some of this text was actually copy-pasted from the high-frequency trading article. I brought up previous issues on the user's talk page to no avail. It has actually worsened since then and would take me many hours to clean up the mess inflicted. Kristina451 (talk) 21:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@Kristina451: do you think the problem is attributable to ESL, or something more than that? This noticeboard has a habit of failing to take action when it comes to issues like this, so if you can be more specific (and very brief) about the exact nature of the problem, using only one or two examples, you might get a better response. Then again, given the horrible track record of this board, they might not do anything. Viriditas (talk) 22:04, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Seems well-intentioned but most of what has been added is completely without citation or verification and much of it is in broken English with spelling and grammatical errors. I've reverted the addition of a couple of sections to articles. Unless there is a commitment to slow down, check edits, source edits and communicate to resolve issues, a block is needed to prevent further damage. Should certainly be unblocked if such a commitment is forthcoming but for now we need to tourniquet and cauterise (unfortunately). St★lwart 23:54, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, and I thought about Viriditas' question, so here is another (article) example. I first explained the issues in detail on his talk page. When David Adam Kess made another off-topic insertion, I removed it with a descriptive edit summary. He added it back, and more. I then tagged a few of the issues. David Adam Kess responded not by addressing any of them, but by adding more off-topic and irrelevant text to the same article. I appreciate the few reverts by Stalwart111. It turns out David Adam Kess edited half a dozen finance articles and to get them back in shape, it may be faster to take the revision before he edited them and restore the edits by others. Kristina451 (talk) 00:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Can you now explain the reaction of the user when you brought these edits to his attention? Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I brought previous edits to his attention, before he made the linked insertions. I remember our talk page conversation back then as pleasant and polite. It did not have the intended effect, the insertions of irrelevant content continued. Kristina451 (talk) 00:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

It would help to link to selected discussions here. Viriditas (talk) 01:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This talk page section. Kristina451 (talk) 01:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

hello and good afternoon

completely without citation or verification, this is not true, i got to get back to my real job

i have been working on how to describe HFT in plain english and have a little issue

instead of working out the grammar, i got a note in the hisotry section

Reverting addition of section with broken English.

for me, this is odd because why delete everything, instead of fixing the englis message by

Stalwart111 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (59,155 byadtes) (-550)‎ . . (Reverted to revision 645231766 by 198.84.203.92 (talk): Reverting addition of section with broken English. (TW)) (undo | thank)

this is a complex topic HFT, High-frequency_trading and should be in plain, easy to read english!

and not deleted without an effort to fix!

have a nice day !

have a nice day

it is very important to describe this in detail

https://en.wikipedia.org/High-frequency_trading#HFT_Algorithmic_trading_strategy

this was deleted and should be in wikipedia

--  David  Adam   Kess 2nd of February 2015 (UTC)

the same rapid delete with the same bogus ref. Reverting addition of section with broken English.

when you look at the code, it is in basic english!

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Algorithmic_trading&action=history

(cur | prev) 23:48, 2 February 2015‎ Stalwart111 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (62,747 bytes) (-375)‎ . . (Reverted to revision 645241697 by Gragre123 (talk): Reverting addition of section with broken English. (TW)) (undo | thank)

Algorithmic_trading and High-farequency_trading

are very complex and the stock market is not like it was years ago, and this kind of info must be in plain english for anyone to understand

in response,

I brought up previous issues on the user's talk page to no avail. 

It has actually worsened since then and would take me many hours to clean up the mess inflicted. Kristina451 (talk) 21:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

you make me laugh, you can revert my edits like Stalwart111.... a good laugh!

--  David  Adam   Kess 2nd of February 2015 (UTC)

the proff is in the pudding, just look at the edits of Kristina451 (talk)

01:20, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+203)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply)
00:58, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+338)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply) 00:29, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+982)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply)
21:44, 2 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+350)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎ANI: new section)
21:43, 2 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+1,905)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: new section)
15:03, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-119)‎ . . Flash Boys ‎ (unsourced and ambiguous)
15:00, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-15)‎ . . Flash Boys ‎ (removing senseless section heading)
14:28, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-350)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (→‎Control: removing text that was senselessly copy-pasted from section "types of hot money")
14:19, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+13)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (tagging as off-topic, and the on-topic article pump and dump makes no reference to dark pools)
14:11, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+80)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (tagging weasel words, original research)
00:58, 5 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-3,318)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (Undid revision 640749301 by David Adam Kess (talk) inserted section has nothing to do with hot money)
00:58, 5 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-1)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (Undid revision 640749415 by David Adam Kess (talk))
22:58, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+41)‎ . . Dark liquidity ‎ (clarification)
22:50, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+393)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
18:41, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+1,115)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
17:18, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+220)‎ . . User talk:Kristina451 ‎ (→‎good afternoon Kristina451,: reply)
16:58, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+907)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
15:46, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+1,132)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: new section)
18:38, 5 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+127)‎ . . Virtu Financial ‎ (→‎Trading activity: some clarifications)
17:54, 5 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (-309)‎ . . Virtu Financial ‎ (→‎Investigations: redundant citation)
15:40, 5 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+1,593)‎ . . Flash Boys ‎ (reverting the removal of relevant reviews)

she just stalks me !

look at what i edit and update!

have a nice day stalker !

--  David  Adam   Kess 2nd of February 2015 (UTC)

Oh my. I'm sure Mr. Kess means well, but that's not always enough. Or in Wiki-speak, WP:CIR. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

User:2602:306:CFBE:D540:7CA3:E1C5:9B8D:9107

User is changing the templates of blocked socks of User:Prince-au-Léogâne to admin templates. Needs a block and possible CU. KonveyorBelt 23:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Add 2602:306:CFBE:D540:7CA3:E1C5:9B8D:9107 (talk · contribs) to make it easier for admins responding this to check the IPs edits. MarnetteD|Talk 23:41, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. I'll leave this thread open for a CU. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

CUs won't tie named accounts to IPs unless the abuse is beyond the pale. This doesn't smack of beyond-the-pale abuse to me. —Jeremy v^_^v 01:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Another IPv6 editor was attempting to edit on the same subjects as these blocked socks earlier, and got blocked for it. Still, nice to know AT&T now support IPv6. Every little helps. Can we rangeblock IPv6 ranges yet? -- The Anome (talk) 02:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, it appears we can: I see that 2602:306:CFBE:D540:0:0:0:0/64 has been blocked. -- The Anome (talk) 02:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

wikipeida stalker Kristina451

Kristina451

why are you stalking me, i can see your edits and you add nothing, but you go after everything i add

just look at your history, i have reported you the administration, this is just crazy!

just look at your history section, who do you work for in finance and why are you taking out data from wikipedia!

from december, you just go after what i put in!

01:20, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+203)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply)
00:58, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+338)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply)
00:29, 3 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+982)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: reply)
21:44, 2 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+350)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎ANI: new section)
21:43, 2 February 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+1,905)‎ . . Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎David Adam Kess: new section)
15:03, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-119)‎ . . Flash Boys ‎ (unsourced and ambiguous)
15:00, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-15)‎ . . Flash Boys ‎ (removing senseless section heading)
14:28, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-350)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (→‎Control: removing text that was senselessly copy-pasted from section "types of hot money")
14:19, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+13)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (tagging as off-topic, and the on-topic article pump and dump makes no reference to dark pools)
14:11, 15 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+80)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (tagging weasel words, original research)
00:58, 5 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-3,318)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (Undid revision 640749301 by David Adam Kess (talk) inserted section has nothing to do with hot money)
00:58, 5 January 2015 (diff | hist) . . (-1)‎ . . Hot money ‎ (Undid revision 640749415 by David Adam Kess (talk))
22:58, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+41)‎ . . Dark liquidity ‎ (clarification)
22:50, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+393)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
18:41, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+1,115)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
17:18, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+220)‎ . . User talk:Kristina451 ‎ (→‎good afternoon Kristina451,: reply)
16:58, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+907)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: reply)
15:46, 28 December 2014 (diff | hist) . . (+1,132)‎ . . User talk:David Adam Kess ‎ (→‎Your recent edits: new section)

Cheers. --David Adam Kess ] Yes?

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