Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Muscat Hoe (talk | contribs) at 20:50, 5 February 2015 (→Gamergate redux). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are Sj, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

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Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

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Mail

— Preceding unsigned comment added by CorporateM (talk • contribs) 19:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Open door policy?

Jimbo, I've read somewhere that "Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy". If so, why are you allow a few admins to protect your talk for weeks? Besides do you really believe that admins who write such edit summaries are stable enough to patrol your talk? 140.206.116.134 (talk) 02:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The admin should know better than to have written that edit summary. It did make me laugh though, but that's why I am not, and never shall be, an admin. If he gets (or already has been) warned (and he really does need to be, in all seriousness, you cant go writing like that as an admin), I'll find a barnstar for him to balance out the yin-yang of the Misplaced Pages universe.Camelbinky (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm very disappointed in that edit summary. I don't mind if this page is semi-protected for weeks or even permanently. As an impediment to an open door policy, I don't think that's much of one, for the simple reason that the amount of time wasting trolling from a handful of persistent anons is high enough to be a net loss.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course, and I'm sure he regrets it. Let's not judge someone who does good work overall by a single edit summary. Gamaliel (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure that edit summary will follow me round for a long time to come. For what it's worth, I was very disappointed in it too, that why I apologised. I stand by the sentiment—that driving off a good editor because he was slightly terse with vandals and POV pushers is counter-productive—but there was no need for the "fucking morons" outburst, which was no more productive than the conduct it was attacking. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for that. As you probably know, I think the lack of civility is a major problem in the community and one area that needs a lot of work. And I also think that part of civility is forgiving people for random outbursts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I looked after the volunteers in the red t-shirts at Wikimania you probably saw, well, everywhere, so I was in the theatre when you gave your talk. I understand what you're getting at, but I so think you over-simplify the problem to some extent, and we should be looking at the atmosphere we want to create rather than punishing people for isolated outbursts (I hasten to add I'm trying to get myself off the hook for my own outburst). Imagine walking into a pub, for example, with an atmosphere of passive aggressiveness or low-level hostility where your motives are questioned and you have to justify every step you take towards the bar; then imagine a pub in which there is no such atmosphere but somebody at a table in the corner gets into an argument with their companion, loses their temper, and calls their companion something unrepeatable. Personally, I find neither particularly appealing but I'd be much more inclined to drink up quickly and leave in the first scenario. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

And for your viewing pleasure, we have problems far beyond the odd outburst (warning: do not view while eating!) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

HJ, you have heavily qualified that apology both times you've offered it. In this case, you've qualified it to the point of rendering the apology meaningless. Do you know what a real apology sounds like? (Jimbo, I'm responding because I was one of the "fucking morons" HJ was referring to.) Townlake (talk) 22:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

@Townlake: The qualification was not meant to negate the sincerity. The apology is not for feeling that an injustice was done; the apology for the way I expressed myself, which was totally inappropriate and completely unnecessary. I apologise to you, personally, for calling you a "fucking moron". In the cold light of day, you are clearly not a "fucking moron", and neither are any of the other opposers, and it was (to put it mildly) grossly unfair to use such a term to describe your good-faith expression of your opinion in the RfA and I should have expressed my disagreement with your opinion in a more dignified manner. I can only say that it was an isolated incident (I don't have a habit of calling people "fucking morons") and I will try harder to keep a lid on my temper in future. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, HJ. In turn, I recognize that I could have raised my concern in a more polite and mature way. I apologize to you for my tone. Townlake (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello IP, you're right Jimbo does have an "open door" policy, however there has to be restrictions as such. With it being Jimbo's talk page it is subject to editors spamming, vandalising, trolling etc etc etc. Rather than play whack-a-mole, sometimes it is in the best interests of the encyclopaedia to lock the page for some time.--5 albert square (talk) 22:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Invitation

	You've been invited to be part of WikiProject Ignosticism
	Hello. Your contributions to Misplaced Pages have been analyzed carefully and you're among the few chosen to have a first access to a new project. I hope you can contribute to it by expanding the main page and later start editing the articles in its scope. Make sure to check out the Talk page for more information! Cheers RoyalMate1 05:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

note re revisions

Hi Jimbo. hey, I just added some material to your user page. I hope you like it and find it helpful. I just wanted to thank you for permitting others to edit your user page. I think that shows a real example of sticking to the best concepts of Misplaced Pages. I appreciate all of your hard work and effort in keeping this great idea and resource going. thanks so much!! see you. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages for Idiots?

I was wondering if any thought has been given to creating a guide to Misplaced Pages, perhaps as part of the "Idiots" series? We don't currently have anything like that, just a series of links in the welcome template and other things of that kind. A comprehensive guide for beginners would really help a lot I think, covering not just the basics (and why we have our rules) but also the more technical stuff, such as formatting references and copyright. Perhaps it's just me, but I sometimes find that even after a couple of years this can be a hard site to navigate. A published guide, perhaps a free e-book, with a good index, would help a lot I think and maybe aid in editor retention. Not volunteering for the job, by the way, as I am too much of a dummy myself, but I think this might be a good job for the Foundation to commission. Coretheapple (talk) 17:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps Misplaced Pages: The Missing Manual is what you had in mind? Everymorning talk 17:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
• https://idiots.wikipedia.org? (probably a redirect to en.wiki...) --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: It took me to a missing page.Skate Shady - talk to me 17:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh that missing manual seems about right, thematically. Obviously it's far out of date. Also it needs a professionally written index. When I search "references," for instance, I get 29 hits. That's just too much. Coretheapple (talk) 17:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

• This might be the closest thing to what Coretheapple seems to be talking about. Everymorning talk 18:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
• There is Misplaced Pages:A primer for newcomers. JohnCD (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

As long as it kept to the technical aspect of how to edit, and stayed far, far away from things talking about the 5P, exact wording of current policies and guidelines (even long standing rarely significantly changed ones like WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS), stay away from abstract concepts such as "courtesy" and "respect". All of those things of course are important for newbies and the curious; but codifying into a manual some of those concepts and !rules would further the spread of dogma that "As Misplaced Pages is the moment I came in, is the way it shall be forever! Because someone wiser than me brought these rules down from upon high". We have enough of that crap going on now without an actual published book declaring for the world to see that these things are this way and that way they shall always be. We'll have some one classifying the 5P as the Misplaced Pages Constitution instead of an essay based on its inclusion on the front page of Misplaced Pages for Idiots (quite an apropos location based on the title for the 5P really, IMHO). Look at organized religion for what happens when you write a book.Camelbinky (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, at least technical. Look, maybe it's just me, but I had a hell of a time finding Help:Overview of referencing styles. It would be nice to have a comprehensive guidebook to point to when you encounter a beginner stumbling along. And why not include policies? It's hard at first to grasp why, for instance, we prohibit original research. It would be nice of a "dummies" guide to explain to beginners why that isn't allowed. The current policy pages don't get into the "why" aspect very much. They're not always self-evident. Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that experienced, helpful editors visit the Teahouse from time to time. We answer large numbers of "newbie" questions there. The experienced hosts are good at pointing new editors In the right direction. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have a sincere follow-up question for User:Coretheapple, hope they don't mind- If we write a book, does it not give newbies the idea that if they see some one changing a policy, or if policy conflicts with said book, that the newbie would become confused at best, and possibly hostile to any changes in the worst case. We'd have endless debates, !votes, and downright nasty arguments over whether a policy can be changed from what it is said in the book. Also- this ties our hands on being progressive, a work in progress, and willing to always change with new consensus since debates on content will be full of "the Holy Book of Misplaced Pages said this! You can't override with a local consensus!" As User:Cullen328 pointed out there are good experienced hosts at the teahouse and other noticeboards who help reach consensus, that does not always stick to the letter of established policy. Even our own established policy pages are always going to lag what we actually do and our current consensus. A policy and guideline is simply- "this is what worked before, so we wrote it down to guide us for next time, but next time might be slightly different so consensus, while it should keep to this established consensus in spirit, the details may differ." Sorry, this may be a bit convoluted! Camelbinky (talk)

I think you're raising a good point, but actually one easy to deal with. Such book should say in bold type that the wording of the policies in Misplaced Pages prevail, and that this is just a general guide for the perplexed. For Misplaced Pages purposes it would have the strength of an essay. I think it's main function would be to help with all the technical details that, I have to say, still flumox me. For example, providing a good guide to all the automated editing platforms that we see out there. (Which is a roundabout way of saying that I personally would find such a manual useful.) Sure, the info is available on Misplaced Pages, but why not give newbies a manual they can use to quickly find the instructions if they want to give it a try? I'll bet the Foundation could get either a volunteer or team of volunteers to do that or perhaps just pay somebody 10K to do it. The important thing is an index, which to be done right costs about $1K. You can then revise it as often as you want. Coretheapple (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

You are looking for WP:CCC. EllenCT (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate redux

Here is an interesting article from Slate.com by David Auerbach on the factually erroneous article seeded from Mark Bernstein's blog to The Guardian sensationalizing the then-ongoing Gamergate Arbcom case. "The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros: The online encyclopedia chews up and spits out bad facts, and its own policies are letting it happen." Carrite (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The thing is he's absolutely right. We have too much of a tendency to lean towards selective blog posts than news releases that have been fact checked and it just perpetuates bad writing. The essay on verifiability, not truth is an embarrassment for this project. If we can't have truth we shouldn't have anything at all. Misplaced Pages is a great place for articles on science or history, but much of our stuff on social issues or recent events is a mess. We worship the New York Times as reliable and then go on and cite their blog writers for their opinion, which amount to being little more credible than the Huffington Post or Breitbart (which we have banned for reasons that seem more political than practical). Will we even look twice at the Guardian after this fiasco? It will probably be as much as we second guessed the Lancet after they published Wakefield's bogus vaccine/autism paper. We should be much more strict on what we consider reliable sources and focus more on getting things done right, instead of fast. It's not like we're missing out on ad revenue if we don't add the latest news story the instant it comes out. This whole project could use a healthy dose of common sense and patience. Muscat Hoe (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)