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re: "online forums of Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan from a vocal minority"

My revert of https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gamergate_controversy&diff=645645952&oldid=645645463 (gah I don't know how to make that pretty) was reverted by Avono. The sense of the German article does not support attaching from "a vocal minority" next to "Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan". Later in the Der Bund article, "vocal minority" (as translated) is used, but in a sense that who is or is not doing things is not clear. I don't think the article supports Avono's edit. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:17, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll leave this to German speakers, although it would be helpful if someone was able to pull the relevant quote (and translation) from the article If that's possible.

This does raise the question, again, of if we really need all of these sources. In an article with 169 references (and counting), does this German-language article provide us with anything not present in the plethora of English sources? AtomsOrSystems (talk) 20:27, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I speak German. Google translate does an OK job on this page, you can check for yourself. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

*relevant quote 1* This opinion war takes place online. Locations are posts in forums, social media or comments orchestrated and email protests. A minority also attacks on anonymous attacks on critics and dissenting means of online stalking, Misplaced Pages vandalism and threats of violence.

*relevant quote 2* What it is about at GamersGate, depends on the interpretation of controversy. The activists and supporters of GamersGate imagine themselves in the war against a major media conspiracy that would "Gamer" brand it as sexist and accusations of conflicts of interest gaming press ignore. Affected journalists and critics, however, see a vocal minority of conspiracy theorists at work. The debate is diffuse. That GamersGate activists are not a homogenous group, making the situation any clearer.

ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Is that a reason to exclude it? Der Bund is a reliable source. My main problem with including it is that it makes it hard for other editors to check the citations easily.ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:NONENG is the policy. Basiaclly no reason to exclude it, although we should prefer an English source (as this is English Misplaced Pages) if it fills the same role. — Strongjam (talk) 20:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's a reason to exclude it, at all. I just think it's one more prod for us to consider the reference bloat on this article. Either way, probably not a discussion to have in the midst of this section. AtomsOrSystems (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

GamerGate is a controversy over coverage of video gamers and players. A Part of this Community raises that the gaming press is interdependent with the gaming industry and that they are attacking their hobby. This opinion war takes place online at posts in forums, social media, online comments or through orchestrated email protests. A minority also resorts to anonymous attacks on critics and dissidents through Onlinestalking, Misplaced Pages Vandalism and threats of violence. Only thing not supported is "vocal" which I am going to remove. Avono (talk) 20:34, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Putting "minority" next to "Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan" is not following the sense of the article - it isn't talking about a minority of "Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan". ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

This is some incredibly bad wordsmithing, and creates synthesis by putting the minorty next to the cites. I'm not going to revert, because I'm not the one starting the revert war, but this is a mistake being writ large. Hipocrite (talk) 20:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The "minority" reference is unclear who it is referring to. It is a minority of Gamergate, not a minority of those groups (although that is also true). Either way it just doesn't read well. Koncorde (talk) 20:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

well somehow we have indicate that not all of gamergate is responsible for the harassment. Maybe These attacks were primarily performed by a minority within the movement? Problem is that movement is defined afterwards. Avono (talk) 20:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

If that was what you were trying to get at, then I'd say if the German source was the only source that got at it, then it's not adequately verifiable. I don't see that the German source absolves Gamgergate supporters of responsibility, merely that the harassment was not actually engaged in by thousands. Hipocrite (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

1) If the goal is somehow state "that not all of gamergate is responsible for the harassment" - it should be it's own sentence somewhere. 2) It will need a citation other than this Der Bund article, because it doesn't support that idea in any clear fashion. Also, that article's information appears to be dated (2014 Oct 10) in a way that would be superceeded by later information. ForbiddenRocky (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

"by a minority" (minority of who?) by itself reads incredibly poorly, so I'm going to remove it for now- feel free to reinsert if you can come up with a way to word it that doesn't detract from readability. (Also: Doesn't 'at times' imply that only some people would be co-ordinating it there, anyway?) PeterTheFourth (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd also point out that the Bund article appears to be an editorial; that means that it can be cited for the author's opinions, but cannot be cited for matters of fact. (That is, we can use it to say "this person thinks XYZ", but we cannot use it to say "XYZ is so".) Either way, it seems to me that putting the 'minority' wording in the lead solely based on one article would give WP:UNDUE weight to that source. --Aquillion (talk) 08:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I have located more sources.

1. The Washington Post: "Both mainstream gaming critics and many Gamergate supporters insist the brutal trolls are just a small, vocal minority. There’s plenty of social science to back that up, too: We know that people are more aggressive, more argumentative and more nasty when they’re permitted to comment on something without using their real name." (this directly supports both "vocal" and "minority")
2. The New York Times "The more extreme threats, though, seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women."
3. The Guardian "In other words, the movement is focused on 'ethical problems' in games journalism; the harassment which is endemic in gamergate is then blamed on 'a much smaller faction'...The Gamergate line is that it vigorously self-polices, tracking down rogue elements within the movement who harass women, and telling them to stop." (he appears to be summarizing the NYT article)

So that's three more sources on top of Der Bund. Is this weighty enough for inclusion in the article? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that Gamergate is already described by us as an "anonymous and amorphous movement" because our sources belabor that point. Of course not every Gamergate supporter is harassing women, just as not every Gamergate supporter is calling in threats, or reporting threats, or donating to TFYC, or participating in Operations, or posting on 8chan or Reddit or Twitter. Our sources bear this out. Making that point only when it comes to harassment is like us writing "reliable sources report..." only about the harassment. Woodroar (talk) 21:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I see what you're saying -- we can't qualify everything in the article. But the current sentence is very confusing. Is the "anonymous and amorphous movement" synonymous with users of the GamerGate hashtag? Isn't is a bit redundant in its current state? It's akin to saying "the anonymous users of these boards are amorphous and anonymous, and conducted an anonymous harassment campaign using a hashtag anonymously." What exactly are we trying to say? The sources say this: 1) The initial round of harassment took place using the gamergate hashtag. 2) The attacks were coordinated anonymously on 4Chan, 8Chan, and Reddit. This goes back to the problem that there is not even an attempt to define the GamerGate movement in the first paragraph, so we get "Here's the bad stuff they did" before we even know who "they" are. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 02:22, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but I personally think our present course is imperfect but the most appropriate for the subject. Gamergate isn't organized, so we're left describing general trends and activities rather than something precise. In a lot of ways, it's like the black bloc. I wouldn't draw too many parallels, just that "this is what we call it; some people did this; some people did this; some people did this; and there may be overlap between any or all of those people". Woodroar (talk) 02:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Then by your own admission the article is deeply misleading, harassment is not a general trend in gamergate, as is verified by all sources that have bothered to attempt to verify such claims. PavePenny (talk) 21:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Not at all. Harassment is a widely-reported element of the movement, whether or not every single member engages in it. Woodroar (talk) 22:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Widely reported does not equate to widely practiced, and article needs to reflect this. PavePenny (talk) 23:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The article needs to reflect the reliable sources, and what they report. -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 00:29, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

If the information a source reports on is not verifiable then the source is not reliable. You are attempting to use wikipedia policy to mask your own confirmation bias and frankly it's shameful. PavePenny (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I know you have the information on how a source can be used, and what makes it reliable or not, because I have personally shared them with with you. If you actually want to make constructive change to the article, I would like to once again suggest that you offer something more than empty words on the talk page, with no actual backing in anything other than your opinion. -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 02:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

My opinion when expressed has been backed by fact, your impotent bleeting about the reliability of sources has not in any instance refuted a substantive claim I've made. Your involvement in this article is to the detriment of the project, either take your responsibility to edit it to fairly represent verifiable fact or step away from it and allow someone competent to have a go. PavePenny (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The point where you personally attack me is the point where I'm going to stop responding, so this doesn't escalate. However, I would like to ask you to consider what it means that you think you know the "facts," and yet have been unable to provide any reliable backing. As has been said before, I would love to edit this article based on what I know to be true; I suspect others wouldn't be so happy. I also am not sure it would be best for the article. That's why we base everything in reliable sources. -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 03:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

PavePenny, I respectfully request that you cease all personal attacks on other editors, and assume good faith unless you have rock solid evidence to the contrary. If another editor engages in indisputable misconduct, discuss their behavior at the appropriate administrative noticeboard. Ongoing personal attacks are likely to lead to blocks or other sanctions. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I mostly concur with Woodroar. However, if you think that more should be added for reasons not addressed by Woodroar's comments, I reiterate that it needs to be it's own piece somewhere and not appended next to "online forums of Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan". Which also to say, I'm not sure the current "anonymous and amorphous movement" belongs attached to the "online 8chan" sentence, but this phrasing makes more sense than the "vocal minority" phrasing. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 04:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, descriptions like "anonymous and amorphous" definitely belong here. Please keep in mind that we're writing for everyone. Ideally, someone who's never heard of 4chan, memes or lulz should be able to understand this jist of this article. Be careful not to over-prune it.

Peter 02:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Review of Reliable Sources

My most esteemed colleagues, I would like to share my latest research with you. I have scoured the internet for articles about the GamerGate controversy, focusing primarily on news organizations that are considered highly reliable, with editorial control and a solid reputation for fact checking. For the purposes of this research I have deliberately avoided online news blogs, such as Wired, Slate, Ars Technica, TechCrunch, or any video game news sites. This is not because those sites are unreliable per se, but this controversy has received enough coverage in the mainstream press that I think we can focus on using higher quality sources with long-running, well-established reputations.

I have noticed that many content discussions on this talk page reference past consensus (you know, the consensus reached by the editors who owned this article, treated it as a battleground and have been topic-banned for it?), or seem to indicate that all sources agree with a certain position. This research is an attempt to address those issues directly. It will also be helpful to locate claims in the article space that may have been cherry picked from otherwise reliable sources. If we are going to edit based on a preponderance of sources, I feel we should be working from the most reliable sources available.

I found 62 articles in highly reliable sources that reported on different aspects of the GamerGate controversy. I investigated each article placed it in one of seven categories, listed below (with example articles in parenthesis):

• Overview -- a macro-level article examining the controversy ()
• Review -- an article covering how the controversy has been reported in the media ()
• Profile -- an interview or profile of an individual or specific organization affected by the GamerGate controversy ()
• Column -- an opinion piece, typically written in first person, detailing a journalist's experience either investigating or covering the controversy ()
• Event -- a story about a particular event, such as the cancellation of Anita Saarkesian's talk at Utah State or the release of the ArbCom findings ()
• Business -- a discussion of the effects of GamerGate on the video game industry ()
• Study -- the results of a poll or study that may be tangentially linked to the GamerGate controversy ()

I decided to compile the articles I classified as Overviews and Reviews. Those two categories include articles that attempt to maintain a dispassionate, disinterested, neutral tone. The articles are also attempts to report on the entirety of the story, not just one aspect of it. While no doubt the rest of the sources would still qualify as reliable, I feel they should be used carefully and in full consideration of proper context.

Here are the reasons I did not use the other categories. Profiles are generally written from the perspective of one of the involved parties, which makes them inherently non-neutral for a controversial subject. Columns are written with an acknowledged editorial slant; also not neutral. Events are good for sourcing specific occurrences, but shouldn't be used to draw general conclusions about the controversy. Business and Study articles are also generally focused on a specific aspect of the controversy, and should only be used to source the applicable content.

Anyhow, here is the list I compiled, starting with the most recent. I would like to hear from you gorgeous people to see if I'm missing any obvious reliably-sourced overview/review articles, or if any of the articles I've identified as such should be reclassified or removed. Thank you for your time and consideration. Here are the 2220 high-quality references I found:

1. Gamergate: a brief history of a computer-age war The Guardian
2. GamerGate: How the video game industry's culture war began Al Jazeera
3. Gamergate and the new horde of digital saboteurs Christian Science Monitor
4. Video game world tensions erupt in 'GamerGate' AFP
5. Nobody Wins the GamerGate Civil War Bloomberg
6. How some Gamergate supporters say the controversy could stop “in one week” Washington Post
7. How do we know what we know about #Gamergate? Columbia Journalism Review
8. The Gamergate controversy The Boston Globe
9. GamerGate is happening because we let it happen Entertainment Weekly
10. Gamergate: A Scandal Erupts in the Video-Game Community The New Yorker
11. What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? Time
12. Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign New York Times
13. Lazy coverage of Gamergate is only feeding this abusive campaign The Guardian
14. Behind the furor over #Gamergate CNN
15. The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read Washington Post
16. #GamerGate Is Not A Hate Group, It's A Consumer Movement Forbes
17. #Gamergate Controversy Fuels Debate On Women And Video Games NPR
18. With #GamerGate, the video-game industry’s growing pains go viral Washington Post
19. Gamergate-related controversy reveals ugly side of gaming community LA Times
20. Sexism, Lies and Video Games: The Culture War Nobody Is Winning Time
21. Zoe Quinn and the orchestrated campaign of harassment from some 'gamers' The Independant
22. GamerGate: A Closer Look At The Controversy Sweeping Video Games Forbes

This list is intended to be as comprehensive as possible, but I fully acknowledge that I may have mis-categorized some articles and completely missed others. Once we can agree on what constitutes the best possible sources for this article, I feel we may have a better shot at tackling some of the broad assertions made in the article space. Thoughts? Concerns? Additions? Subtractions? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 02:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

If we're going to use only the most highly reputable sources then you should drop the WP:NEWSBLOG from that list, as you've linked to it above. To be clear, that's the Erik Kain pieces. They're not Forbes articles, they're from Kain's blog published through their contributor model. Unfortunately if we cut out all NEWSBLOGs we're going to get a lot of people yelling about neutrality because of losing those. — Strongjam (talk) 03:06, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate targets launch anti-harassment network, The Guardian

When Jumping into Gamergate Turns into Fearing For Your Life, ABC News Nightline

Zoe Quinn: '#Gamergate has ruined my life. But I won't quit', The Telegraph

There's quite a few other reports which are much more recent than the ones above, and take a more holistic, looking-back-at-what-Gamergate-actually-was approach. No Matter How Dark (talk) 04:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Concur with Strongjam that the Erik Kain piece falls under WP:NEWSBLOG and (lacking any compelling reason why Kain's opinion is noteworthy here or why it should be included despite that) doesn't really belong on any list of the most-reliable sources. I'd be leery about removing too many sources in any sort of mass sweep, though, given the complexity of the subject; remember in particular that sourcing is contextual and depends on what you're citing (eg. citing the opinion of someone who is relevant to the topic can be done using a source that wouldn't be reliable for sourcing other facts.) If you feel that a particular source shouldn't be used or that a particular statement in the article is not currently well-cited enough, I'd ask that you create a specific section for that specific concern, or that you make one edit for that particular part directly, rather than trying to make any sort of overarching change -- one talk section or edit per removed source or area of the article you don't feel is well-cited enough, basically, not a sweeping "we're going to use these and remove absolutely everything else, then remove absolutely everything not cited to them." --Aquillion (talk) 08:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the Forbes feedback -- I have struck those articles from the list. I wasn't familiar with that model, but it explains a lot. I thought there might have been a few self-published articles hiding in the shadows -- looks like this issue had been addressed previously in the archives. As for the additions, I had categorized The Guardian article as a profile (it's about Crash Override), ABC News as a profile (it's about Anita Saarkesian and Brianna Wu), and the Telegraph article as a profile (it's essentially an interview of Quinn). I'm not saying those sources are unreliable, I'm just saying that articles written on a macro-level about the controversy should be used when drawing broad conclusions. And Aquillion, I'm not proposing a mass sweep or overarching change. I do think it would be helpful at some point in the future, but I'm just not nearly talented or patient enough to pull that off. I tried it a few years ago at Historicity of Jesus and it was an absolute shambles, and not at all worth the time and effort I put into it. This is merely my attempt to create a list of articles that the editors can agree are the highest quality reliable sources on the subject to address recent content disputes, such as the recent discussion about the definition of GamerGate, or to address longstanding issues with the lead. If we can agree that, yes, these are the highest-quality sources that address the controversy then we can start drawing more concrete conclusions on "what the sources say." ColorOfSuffering (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it's helpful to start trying to categorize highly-reliable sources and decide which ones we should use based on their content, never mind the long argument that might be had over what is and is not a "profile." This controversy ultimately isn't happening on a macro level, is it? It's happening to real, live people, and according to the sources, the most important and notable things it's doing are the attacks on people. Stands to reason that "profiles" of the people who have been targeted by Gamergate would be common and important in understanding what this whole thing is. No Matter How Dark (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let me take a step back here because I think you might misunderstand the objective of this post. I am not recommending that we replace all references in the article with the ones I listed. I am not suggesting that we only use the articles I listed as references. I am not suggesting that any article I did not list should be ignored. I also did not suggest, at any time, that people are not real, live people. I've always believed, with all of my heart, that people who are affected by things are people who are affected by things, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a rotten liar. What I am suggesting is that certain articles are more appropriate to address sweeping, macro-level content questions, such as "Is GamerGate a movement?" "What is GamerGate?" "Does the lead properly reflect the article content?" "Have citations been cherry picked from sources?" "Should the GamerGate movement have its own article?" Because this controversy is happening on both a macro-level and a micro-level, like all things that happen, and the distinction in applicable reliable sources needs to be made. To your point, I would agree that for any and all issues relating to how Zoe Quinn has been affected by GamerGate, an article titled Zoe Quinn: '#Gamergate has ruined my life. But I won't quit' would be entirely appropriate. But to draw general conclusions on the controversy based on the content of that article would be inappropriate, due to WP:YESPOV, WP:RSCONTEXT, and WP:SYN. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 23:40, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I find the premise of this list odd. "For the purposes of this research I have deliberately avoided online news blogs, such as Wired, Slate, Ars Technica, TechCrunch, or any video game news sites. This is not because those sites are unreliable per se, but this controversy has received enough coverage in the mainstream press that I think we can focus on using higher quality sources with long-running, well-established reputations." Those excluded sites should be included for the depth they generally have WRT topics related to gaming and/or tech. This is supposed to encyclopedic - in that it has depth and breadth. Also, the fact that they are reliable sources means that they can and should be included if they have a detail not include among the sources in this list - also for many of the articles in the list the excluded sites are often the sources of their information. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Two points. First, not all reliable sources are created equal. This does not mean there are reliable sources we should specifically exclude, only that when we are drawing broad conclusions and giving statements of fact we should be using the best sources available. Do you seriously disagree with this? If the only source for a detail is a less-reliable source, then yes, by all means include it. But if there's a discrepancy between The New York Times and Ars Technica, you're saying we should just, what, flip a coin? How is the idea of "better" sources so difficult to understand? Maybe it will help if I start quoting policy. From WP:RS "'News reporting' from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact." From WP:V: "The best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source." From WP:OR: "Best practice is to research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly." From WP:NPOV: "Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available, helps prevent NPOV disagreements." (bold mine) Those quotes are from the core content policies which explicitly state we should be attaching a value to our sources, rather than just treating every source equally. I'm not trying to sound snarky, because I do honestly appreciate the work you've done here and I thank you sincerely for your feedback, but you should really familiarize yourself with these policies so posts like this don't come off as "odd" to you. The second point...well, I've already made the second point a couple of times, so instead of quoting policy I'll just quote myself: "I am not recommending that we replace all references in the article with the ones I listed. I am not suggesting that we only use the articles I listed as references. I am not suggesting that any article I did not list should be ignored...What I am suggesting is that certain articles are more appropriate to address sweeping, macro-level content questions". Anyhow, thanks for weighing in. If you find a reliable and contextual source that you feel matches the quality of the 20 I have listed, or if you feel that one of the 20 is unworthy, then I'm all ears (eyes). ColorOfSuffering (talk) 19:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

There are fine points as well as "board conclusions" also is what I'm saying. I'm not seeing the purpose of this limited list. If it's not to exclude thing or point out unreliable sources, then as long as a source is reliable, it gets to be used within the article as long as it meets the criteria of Misplaced Pages. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 00:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

And thus the page gets all shitty over again... because the 'RSes' are just echochambers who echo just about a small part. And scrapping Kain's articles.... MicBenSte (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree here, if you guys look at the authors of many of the sites, you'll find interconnected relationships between writers, Leigh Alexander(TIME, Vice, Former Gamasutra) is a friend of Simon Parkin(The New Yorker). and Nick Wingfield(Times). I simple google search of two names together come up with this stuff. Leigh Alexander has written for Gamasutra in the past, who runs the Games Developers Conference, Leigh Alexander spoke at the GDC. It's all the best interests of these writers to say "The Games Journalists found no corruption taking place, GG is merely a hate group", I don't think its conspiratorial per-se. But simply friends doing favors for friends doing favors for friends. Kau-12 (talk) 10:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources that rely only on sources that are party to one side of any controversy cannot be rightly considered reliable. Chrisrus (talk) 16:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Google searching names to call people "friends" to then disqualify articles they have written is not how we evaluate WP:RS. The New Yorker has perhaps the single most solid reputation for fact checking and accuracy around. The New York Times remains basically the paper of record for the United States. Hipocrite (talk) 16:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

If we're trying to figure out whether an article is worth using, we need to use editorial discretion. If we can choose between a variety of articles and find ones that do not show a possible conflict, we should obviously look to avoid them. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

We do not determine "possible conflicts," by google searching for authors names and then MSPainting red lines. This is Not On. Hipocrite (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what "This is Not On" means, but we do use editorial discretion to decide whether to use a source on a regular basis. It's part and parcel with building a neutral, reliable encyclopedia article. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

You are speaking in platitudes. Why are you doing that? Hipocrite (talk) 17:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

A better question would be why are you avoiding the argument? PavePenny (talk) 23:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

1) So, "friendship" may be a factor of editorial discretion, but most journalists in a given newspaper will have some kind of acquaintance with each other, and most journalists in a given field will have some kind of acquaintance. Using "friendship" to exclude journalists as a hard rule will eliminate most journalists incorrectly. 2) Also, using NYT to discuss Leigh Alexander is OK; but using Leigh Alexander to discuss Leigh Alexander would be problematic, but we aren't doing that. 3) "It's about journalism ethics" therefore "we can't trust the journalist" begs the question: is it about journalism ethics of the cited journalists? If so, what is the way to address that? I think the fact that non-gaming journalists (e.g. NYT) have looked into the situation and written summaries of what is going on at least addresses that hypothetical. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

These articles are the work of professional journalists writing for highly respected news organizations with long history of strong editorial oversight. I agree that, in general, they tend to be slanted against GamerGate... but that's the reality of the coverage that GamerGate has received in the mainstream press, and that's what we use to build our articles. An argument could be made that the current Misplaced Pages article does not reflect the proper neutral tone of the articles I found, but those edits will need to be made on a case-by-case basis. Personally I feel that these articles are far more balanced than the stuff you'd see in other "technically reliable sources." The Washington Post articles, in particular, are written in a fair, balanced, and neutral tone. Same goes for the Columbia Journalism Review article. I actually liked the Leigh Alexander article in Time, as she generally shied away from the more evocative borderline-opinion-piece language deployed by The Guardian. There's really nothing in WP:RS about journalists being friends, and that seems to be a very difficult standard to establish. Do we only focus on journalists who are best friends (besties!)? Or do we include ones that are merely acquaintances? If a journalists retweets another journalist, is their integrity forever compromised? Sorry. I'm being glib, but I've yet to see evidence that a journalist having a personal friendship with another journalist could compromise the quality of their reporting. A friendship with the subject they're writing about? Sure, then we're talking. But not with other journalists. Maybe I'm being naive. I did narrow down the articles published on highly reliable news sources quite a bit, to address the editorial discretion issue, but if you feel it should be narrowed further I'd love to hear it. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of Kencf0618's changes to the lede

@Kencf0618: Hi there! You've changed the lede because you believe 'and others' is unsupportable due to it not being cited in the lede. Using citations in the lede is something that's been discussed on the talk page before- the consensus was that doing so was unnecessary as long as it was sourced elsewhere in the article. As such, unless you disagree with this consensus and would like to start a new discussion, I'd request that you revert your reversion. Cheers! PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately, an editor has already made the appropriate changes, but I hope this has still aided you in understanding why I made the reversion you disagreed with to your change. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the SHOUTING. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Since this comes up quite a bit I've added a comment for future editors to try and redirect them to the talk pages first. — Strongjam (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

No worries. kencf0618 (talk) 17:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

This article is a grave disappointment and deeply harms my respect for Misplaced Pages

Proposed revisions to lede

Painful Article

Spiked naming pro-GamerGate one of the 'people of the year'

I entirely missed it till I went back to the archives - Spiked ranked pro-Gamergate as one of their top-25 'People of the Year'. Worthy of mention? http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/trail-blazers-risk-takers-and-rule-breakers-our-people-of-the-year/#.VKvo8ivF_3h MicBenSte (talk) 03:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure where this would even go if we chose to include it. Do you have a proposal for its inclusion? PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

We used to have a section on right-wing commentators that spoke more positively of the GG movement, like Christina Hoff Sommers and Milo Y. (see ), which is exactly where this would have gone. I do not know why this was removed, as this is a necessary counterpoint in discussing the "culture war" facet of the controversy, and why the situation has gained larger interest. --MASEM (t) 04:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe including Milo Yiannopoulos's writing for Breitbart would specifically be an issue, given the reliability (or lack thereof) of it as a source. Sidenote: Are we sure GG is a right wing movement? I've read several claims that they're supposed to be left wing. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:12, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Including Milo's opinions is fine (particularly as we have other sources that state that he is a proponent of GG); we just can't use Milo's claims of actuality due to past issues with Brietbart poor fact-checking as a whole. And while I don't know for sure about any GGer's saying they are left-wing, the whole issue of ethics and trying to fight against the inclusion of social issues in games (and that's ignoring the issues of sexism, etc.) is very much contrary to left-wing thinking, and thus our sources as a whole classify the movement as right-wing in a political sense. --MASEM (t) 04:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem with including his opinions merely because he has them is that we have an essentially limitless supply of sourceable opinions. What makes Milo's opinions notable or representative? Is he an expert on video game culture? He's not exactly a gamer. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

He's the opposite of a gamer actually - and kinda a hypocrite. But he's dug quite a bit of info up, conducted a couple of interviews (Quinn and Sarkeesian however didn't want to talk with him at all) and tried to get to both sides of the story - although due to his own political agenda it's slightly biased. (And slightly is an understatement here) MicBenSte (talk) 05:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I would limit to people who have been identified in RSes as those that ... align? with GG (to the point of the right-wing nature of the issues). Milo and Christina both apply per at least that Salon article I've linked. In the case of this Spiked - which is a recognized publication (and not some random weblog) - that would also be appropriate. I agree a random proGG blog is not appropriate here which numerous have been proposed in the past; also keep in mind we're talking about when discussing the political identity/culture war aspect, which I've only seen from a few non-blog RSes (with most blog sources being on the ethics aspects). --MASEM (t) 05:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

To add, I think we can add Milo and Christina's opinions on the matter via other RS directly. The Salon link above, for example. CNN has a quote from Milo, while from WAPost talks on Christina's position, so it looks like we can include their opinions without citing the primary source, thus filtering what other views are considered appropriate per other RSes. Keep in mind that we also have articles that are critical of Milo and Christina's supportive nature of GG that claim to be using the group to their own ends (eg , , ) --MASEM (t) 06:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Masem, while I think it's appropriate to include a variety of perspectives on this controversy, I'm skeptical about Milo and Christina (it seems odd to use their first names for identification, as the pro-GG folks do) because it's unclear what role they have in the actual issues of GamerGate. They are seen as spokespeople but that's because they have a large microphone, not because they have any knowledge of gaming journalism, game development or gaming culture. I think it's okay to use Sommers for her peculiar views on feminism, but, unlike most journalists covering GamerGate, Milo is actually a participant in the movement rather than a spectator, assessing and analyzing it. While there have been journalists sympathetic to those opposed to GamerGate, aside from Arthur Chu and Ian Miles Cheong, I can't think of any writers who are, essentially, have become a part of the debate . Chu is used as a reference once in this article but his more opinionated pieces aren't used as sources and Cheong is not used at all. Liz 20:10, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The thing though is that these people have been named by other RSes as part of those writing to support what GG's "ethics" side is doing; we're not randomly pulling these names out of thousands of pro-GG blogs. And the point is not to express much about their opinion, but just to identify them as the few media names that have clearly taken a side in the debate and their reasoning towards the culture war aspect. We're not making guesses by using who has been identified by here. (And I only ID them by first name as I cannot remember Milo's last name spelling off the top of my head, no other reason). --MASEM (t) 20:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Masem, this is kind of a conundrum because GamerGate is consistent that they have no leaders. Yet they do acknowledge "ecelebs" who are seen as speaking on behalf of their cause. I think it would be fine to identify individuals as being important voices without reproducing their arguments here. That is simply an acknowledgment of the role they've played. I know Gawker has written about the importance of both individuals but I doubt that is considered a RS. Liz 20:25, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It makes no sense to mention these "ecelebs" (for lack of a better term) and not mention why they've taken the cause when RS do explain this relative to the nature of this being a culture ware (even if they are considering their involvement self-serving as some of the sources I state above). I've pointed out we can include these reasons from non-SPS RS that speak about their motivations (links above). I'm not saying we need a full paragraph about Milo Y.'s involvement, but a sentence. Same with Christina Hoff Sommers. These are significant names attached to GG as from reliable sources and to not include them is failing to be objective. We just have to recognize they are a minor viewpoint and don't need more than a sentence or two. --MASEM (t) 20:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to see particularly criteria for THIS article set for which kinds of opinions to generally include, and where. A lot of the contentious stuff come from trying to include things from opinion pieces - sometimes because of the opinions cross into original research and sometimes because restating an opinion crosses so easily into synth. For this Wiki article, I think if there were a clearer way to mark opinions (e.g. put them in one section) that would help. I think notable opinions like Milo and Christina are important to include, but I have difficulty with the inclusion of the opinions of Givens - this is not to reopen those issues, but to illustrate that it's difficult to decide which opinions among so many to include. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

PeterTheFourth, I've collected several thousand graphic images arising out of GamerGate and there is a frequently reprinted "ideology map" (for lack of a better term) with a four quadrant spectrum: left authoritarian, left libertarian, right authoritarian, right libertarian. I believe that the survey was taken at KIA of people who visited that subreddit and chose to participate. The bulk of respondents placed themselves somewhere in the left libertarian square (I'd say 75%) with right libertarian square coming in second. Of course, this was not a random sample and it's not clear how these four terms were defined for the survey takers. But the graph is frequently brought out when GamerGate is being identified as a right wing movement to argue that many pros actually identify themselves as left-leaning. Liz 19:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I would point out that this is a disconnect between what the GG movement believes themselves as, and what other sources believe what GG are based on the motives (ignoring the harassment aspect). But it also depends where the center lies (which is the whole issue when you talk on things like Tea Party politics which bore out of a belief that the GOP was going far too center for their tastes). It would be nice to include that ideology map if we can get from an RS (I see one at dailykos, but yeeeah) --MASEM (t) 20:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Masem, one incongruity in GamerGate is how many of the original participants (I think the numbers have dwindled considerably) said they were actually feminists. They specified this was pro-first wave feminism (about equality), not so-called third wave feminism which they saw as interested not in equality but in promoting women, at the expense of men and masculine culture. How they reconciled this with the element of GG that harassed certain women is unclear. Liz 20:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

That was the whole #notyourshield part that was an attempt to point out that the people in GG were not just white males, but females and minorities too. But again, we really do lack any really good quantification of the population of GG which is why way to categorize them is near impossible - you can't ready survey without bias of an anonymous population. --MASEM (t) 20:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

the whole notyourshield being actual diverse voices for GG has been shown to be a sham. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:30, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware of the incongruity between their beliefs and their claims. I was mostly using the question as a rhetorical device to indicate how there are even a sizable amount within the population who would object to these people being said to represent or speak for them. We can't really use these people because not only do they not have expertise on the subject, they can't be spokespeople by any degree if they are to be characterised (quite rightly) as right-wing given the claims of a sizable majority of the movement. All that said, I do appreciate you taking the time to educate people. PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Gotcha; the way I would approach that is not to identify them as spokespersons, but simply people that have aligned themselves with proGG. They are notable persons, in part noted for their alignment to GG, but I don't think that neither they think they speak for GG, or that GG thinks they speak for them (moreso, it is the case from the GG angle that these are the few voices that the press recognizes and thus are their best mouthpieces, if that makes sense on the difference). I think we can say these people sympathize with the GG cause, briefly explain rationale for why they do, and then perhaps include how some other see their sympathy as only a means to push their own agenda. But certainly not explain they are the voice/leader of GG, as that's just not there in sources or in what GG's state. --MASEM (t) 02:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to specify exactly what role these ecelebs play in GamerGate. They clearly have "fans" within the pro-GamerGate. But aside from the folks with big YouTube followings, many of the most high profile people have no connection to gaming or gaming journalism. But they are cultural critics, for what it's worth. But you can throw a rock in any direction these days and find a cultural critic. Liz 02:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

(A note regarding spiked, based on one RS/N discussion, is that for facts we should be careful but they would be appropriate to cite their opinion (with attribution) for something like this.) --MASEM (t) 04:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Somewhere in the first paragraph as sidenote? I'm not entirely sure. Could be also somewhere more down the page... Not exactly sure.

BTW, re-reading the ledger etc - and "These attacks, initially performed under the Twitter hashtag #gamergate, were later variously coordinated in the online forums of Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan in an anonymous and amorphous movement. The harassment included doxing, threats of rape, and death threats, including a threat of a mass shooting at a university speaking event." are not sourced at all and are OR. While RSes attributed a lot of the stuff to GamerGate, as far as I can recall except for Gawker-related sites, no MSM has ever said the doxxing etc were coordinated. Especially not that threath of a mass shooting, (Redacted)

Re: Masem - it got voted 'blogs' don't have a place. I talked with Liz about it (I'll dig up the diffs later for that one), but didn't hear anything back from her yet besides that she agreed a few of the removed pieces should have a place. As of current, I'm not sure how to handle this. MicBenSte (talk) 04:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources in the Sarkeesian BLP and discussed on its talk page make it clear that there were two discrete threats regarding the university speaking engagement, the second of which specifically referenced Gamergate. Accusing Sarkeesian of making this up is a BLP violation. Please desist. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Cullen, your memory is faulty. I read the BLP, and I saw what you mentioned I think (link 52) - however, that never claims it was GamerGate related but turned out to be an militant anti-feminist. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58528113-78/sarkeesian-threats-threat-usu.html.csp As a matter of fact what is written there is complete OR, I can't find it back in the article AT ALL. MicBenSte (talk) 04:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure that the Salt Lake Tribute source dosen't say "a second threat arrived Tuesday. That one, USU spokesman Tim Vitale confirmed, claimed affiliation with the controversial and sometimes violent online video gamers' movement known as GamerGate?" Just checking. Hipocrite (talk) 04:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Unless I'm a really bad reader at late time, I can't find such a thing in your mentioned article. Also, the links are way off with where they are placed then in Sarkeesian's BLP - they should be give an instant link where the reader can find the info, they shouldn't have to backtrack to 4 links earlier or later.... Also, if it's in there, two sources are counteracting each other. MicBenSte (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit: I see what you mean. However, it is only in the title, yet the body of the article counteracts it. So yeah. Shitty article there IMHO. What are we going to use - the header, or the body? MicBenSte (talk) 04:56, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Check again. The SLTrib source says "USU officials and Sarkeesian on Wednesday revealed new details about the threats. After the mass shooting threat was sent to the school late Monday, a second threat arrived Tuesday. That one, USU spokesman Tim Vitale confirmed, claimed affiliation with the controversial and sometimes violent online video gamers' movement known as GamerGate" just as Hipocrite stated. Woodroar (talk) 04:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

In my defense, it's late where I live. But you're right... MicBenSte (talk) 05:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It appears to be a random opinion piece from an anti-feminist website (or, at least, one aggressively critical of modern feminism, since the terms can be controversial; they particularly seem to come from the perspective that they believe it opposes free speech.) While we can mention opinions when they're relevant, it's important not to turn the article into just a dumping ground for any opinion piece some editor here agrees with; it's better to stick to opinion pieces from well-known high-profile otherwise reliable sources, which I don't feel this particular site merits. I mean, is there a reason you want to include their opinion in particular in the article? They're neither directly related to the controversy nor (as far as I know) particularly noteworthy in any of the fields it covers; and this particular opinion piece isn't even about the article's subject directly, just mentioning it in passing as part of a longer list. --Aquillion (talk) 04:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Hence why I asked - I wasn't sure whether it had a place. *Shudder* MicBenSte (talk) 04:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

While I agree that this list article isnt of any particular use here, other articles have been written on spiked such as this one arguing gamergate is part of a culture war. It's nothing particularly amazing, but then again neither are most of the sources we use. Bosstopher (talk) 18:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I just checked out the link and I'm surprised that Spiked is seen as a reliable source. It looks like a pretty flaky website. Do they have a print version? Liz 21:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Remember, 'reliable source' is contextual. I think we generally wouldn't rely on them to source statements of fact (they're not, as far as I can see, a 'well-established news outlet' or anything like that, and they seem to focus heavily on opinion anyway); and I'd probably say that they're a 'questionable source' as described in WP:RS, but we could (in theory) still cite them to describe their opinion. The question at that point is whether their opinion is particularly relevant to the topic at hand; I'd generally argue that it isn't, but that's a matter of whether it would be giving their opinion WP:UNDUE weight rather than whether they're a reliable source. --Aquillion (talk) 01:39, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Potential sources

While looking around i found some self written GG report, now i know it cant be used because it doesn't paint gamergate in a negative light but i think we can use the sources cited at the end for a summery of what GG thinks is wrong with the journalism industry

(Redacted) per WP:BLP

I'd say we can't use the "dossier" itself more because it's a self-published internet post written with no clear editorial oversight by a group of anonymous people on the internet, more than because "it doesn't paint Gamergate in a negative light." The list of articles is worth looking through, but with a cursory glance, I don't see how most of them relate directly to the Gamergate controversy. Indeed, most of them predate the controversy, some by a rather significant amount. -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 07:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, after looking at this closer, can you give an idea of how you think any of these might be useful to the article? The only ones I see that relate to the Gamergate controversy in any meaningful way are 42 and 46. Of those, 42 is a blog post on tumblr, and 46 is already included in the article (by way of its use in an On The Media report). -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 08:14, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I reckon that the sources could be used to describe GG's grievances against the press, like a summery of what we they think is wrong with the press, also i think the dossier is good background reading (for editors) --Retartist 08:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

How would you want to use them "to describe GG's grievances against the press," though? The article is already arguably oversourced, I'm not sure it will be useful to try to add sources or information that doesn't relate to the controversy in any apparent, meaningful way. Do you have any specific suggestions? -- ATOMSORSYSTEMS 08:50, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I dont have a specific wording change yet but i'm thinking that we could add some GG pov into "Debate over ethics in journalism" as the section is largely criticism by journalists on GG "Gamergate's demands have often been hard to quantify, but numerous journalists who have attempted to do so" I'm thinking that we can add more rebuttals or even the demands of GG because after reading that section i'm not seeing a debate (or what gg is demanding). --RetΔrtist (разговор) 09:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I have redacted a link to an anonymously-written, patently-unreliable source containing negative statements and allegations about living people, under the topic ban exemption for the removal of clear and unambiguous BLP violations. This link is clearly unacceptable and has previously been removed from talkspace for the same reason, and reinserting it is likely to lead to sanctions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

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