Misplaced Pages

Daniel (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

A move was requested to move Daniel to Daniel (biblical figure). I opposed the move, but I acknowledge there was consensus to move it. The issue now is which page should be called Daniel. The closer determined that the move was to be from Daniel (name) to Daniel. The thing is, only two editors were in favour of this, while two other editors explicitly argued for Daniel (disambiguation) to be the "main" (Daniel) page. So I am posting it here because (a) there doesn't seem to be consensus for this particular move, and (b) in such situations, where there is no clear primary topic (between the name, the biblical person, and the biblical book) the normal practice is to make the disambiguation page the main page. Thus, the closer's rationale to move Daniel (name) to Daniel rather than Daniel (disambiguation) to Daniel seems very weak. See also the John page, where the disambiguation page is the "main" one.StAnselm (talk)

Various articles about popular names refer to the article about the name, whereas others refer to a disambiguation page. Though StAnselm has alluded to a trichotomy "between the name, the biblical person, and the biblical book", articles such as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John don't give any precedence to the biblical character or the associated book. Though there are some exceptions, there isn't a particularly compelling reason for very common names to default to articles about biblical characters. There is some variation about whether to use the name-based article or a disambiguation page, however there doesn't seem to be any indication that the disambiguation page is the "normal practice".--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

So with three of names you mention, the main page is the disambiguation page. I'm not saying here that the biblical character article should take precedence; I'm saying that Daniel would be in the same category as the ones you mention. (Unlike Andrew, for example, where there is no biblical book.) StAnselm (talk) 20:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: I have started a move request, Luke (disambiguation) → Luke. StAnselm (talk) 20:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Further note: A discussion is now underway to split the name page into Daniel (given name) and Daniel (surname). StAnselm (talk) 02:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a tendency for names that also have other meanings (e.g. mark, john, bob) to have the disambiguation page as the main page, but generally the name is the primary article for words that are only used as a proper noun (e.g. Michael, Chris, Joseph).--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I also think the move should have left Daniel as disambig page, and discussed it with the closer, getting him to at least add to his close statement, but before I noticed this review I started a new RM discussion about that, at Talk:Daniel#Requested move 7 February 2015. That discussion will probably converge more quickly than the typical move review. Dicklyon (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Pottawatomie Massacre (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

A somewhat ridiculuous non-admin close reversing a unaminous Requested Move discussion, converting one support to an oppose, in direct opposition to the responder's opinion that the previous closer erred.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dicklyon (talk • contribs) 02:33, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Closer note: I'm happy to discuss on my user talk page (which I believe you should have done first). I think my closure rationale is clear, although I welcome a review and any questions that may arise.

In addition to the closure rationale, just including a set of points to add context to the above:

• The RM in question was identical to a previous one that had closed only two weeks earlier.
• No new arguments were presented in the new RM.
• Only two new editors commented in the new RM.
• The previous RM was closed with no consensus, and I think it is reasonable to say that editors in that RM assumed their comments would be taken into account (in fact, one of the opposers posted in the second RM without explicitly supporting or opposing). Not all supporters posted in the second RM either.
• The support (out of two) that I "converted" to an oppose came from an editor who indeed opposed the move but thought the first discussion should have been closed as move. I think it was reasonable for me to consider this.
• If I had closed the original RM I might indeed have called it consensus to move. However, given that it closed as no consensus, closing the second RM as move would involve in part overriding the previous closer (again, especially because no new arguments were presented). I could see this move review resulting in overturn of the previous close on the merits (pinging Cuchullain), but even then I couldn't have closed differently myself.

All that said, I really don't see why the capitalization is such a big deal, and I'm happy to go along with anything that avoids unnecessary drama. :-) Sunrise (talk) 03:10, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Sunrise, I guess for want of a nail, the horse-shoe was lost; for want of a horse-shoe ... We've managed to get a pretty good house style on the English Misplaced Pages—one that avoids the over-formatting you see rife in some technical docs, advertising, etc. It's ideal for our international non-expert readership. And we seem to be at one in this with large proportions of publishing houses out there. That's one thing. More relevant here is the procedural issue. So ... I agree with Dicklyon's points above. Tony (talk) 04:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I could probably have written a rationale for consensus as well, and I guess it would probably have been less likely to be challenged. :-) I actually started with that, but on further analysis I felt that "no consensus" would be the best alternative as long as I was taking the previous close as a starting point. (And after that - like I said, the deciding issue for me was how I treated the comment "procedural support" from an editor who said they nonetheless opposed the outcome. WP:BURO came to mind even though I didn't cite it explicitly.) But in any case, if the first couple of uninvolved editors who comment here have the same opinion, that would be more than enough for me to overturn my close. Sunrise (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Overturn NAC close as a contested NAC, but close instead as too soon after the previous close. Starting a new RM so soon is disrespectful to the previous discussion, tenditious, exhausting to other Wiipedians. Attempting to find a consensus through exhausting previous opponents on unimportant questions is offensive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

• Overturn ( or reopen for new close -- but given the 9 days without comment between the last vote and the NAC close I don't think a full relist is necessary ) While the time between the previous RM and this one was on the short side, a no consensus close does not normally prevent a future RM. The arguments for the move were strong and the only real comments against was a procedural request that the previous RM should have come here and an support that mentioned a personal preference in the opposite direction. However, in most cases when a no-consensus close that is over 1 month that is brought here the result is a recommendation to just open a new RM. For Ajax's comment to be taken as an oppose it would be similar to taking my !vote here as an endorse because I wish the Misplaced Pages used title-case for page names and section headers assuming the software changes were made to allow lower case links from the bodies to work without redirects. PaleAqua (talk) 08:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Overturn (or reopen) per User:PaleAqua. I supported the move but muddied the waters by mentioning that I personally oppose such moves. In this case, my personal opinion had no basis in policy, precedent, expediency, consistency, or any other relevant principle. It was WP:IDONTLIKEIT and I shouldn't have mentioned it. I sincerely support the move as the nominator and supporters in the first and the second RM had a preponderance of support and sounder arguments. User:SmokeyJoe has a point about following and RM with another but, in this case, it happened and the result was additional support for a move. The nominator has followed correct procedure to a T and his/her arguments were resoundingly affirmed by other users and yet somehow s/he can't catch a break. —  AjaxSmack  01:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

That's fair. I interpreted your comment as carrying some of the weight from the opposing rationales in the previous RM, so thanks for the clarification. Given this, I am more than happy to overturn my close as consensus to move. Sunrise (talk) 02:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)