Talk:The Man Who Broke into Auschwitz

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Proposed rewrite

> The Man Who Broke Into Auschwitz is the title of an autobiographical book by the british Hero of the Holocaust Denis Avey, with Rob Broomby, published in 2011. . Content Avey relates his wartime service and how he came to be held prisoner in E715A, a camp for Allied Prisoners of War adjacent to Monowitz. He describes how he exchanged uniforms with a Jewish inmate of Monowitz in order to enter Monowitz to discover more about conditions there, with a view to reporting these to the authorities after the war. He also relates how he smuggled cigarettes to another Jewish inmate Ernst Lobethal, having obtained these from Lobethal’s sister in England.. He was convinced that Ernst had died by early 1945, because he could not have survived the death marches when the camp was evacuated. He also said that after the war the authorities were not interested in his story and he kept silence for more than half a century. Eventually her did begin to disclose his story and it came to the attention of the BBC. Rob Broomby was able to trace Lobethal’s sister Susanne and her son had a copy of a video recording which her brother before his death had made for the Shoah Foundation in which he describes how Avey smuggled the cigarettes and that these cigarettes saved his life because he was able to exchange them for food and to have new soles put on his boots which enabled him to survive the death march. Criticism The Book is a best-seller and translated into many different languages. However, although Lobethal’s video confirms that Avey smuggled cigarettes to him questions have been raised as to whether Avey managed to smuggle himself into Auschwitz.<

I propose this rewrite of the article. I consider it gives a better overview of the plot structure. It makes it clear as to where the question lies. Sceptic1954 (talk) 11:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)Sceptic1954

But why still no reference to the controversy or the details of it? The whole 'swapping' account has been doubted by, among others, the head of research at the Auschwitz-Birkenau museum, Piotr Setkiewicz, who has said: "...I don't think this (the swap) happened.". So don't we need to refer to that? Yet you write that he is a "British Hero of the Holocaust". As if that is accepted undisputed fact. And yet he may well not be that, but might be like Charles Coward who wrote an account very similar to this one that has been shown to be fictional and fraudulent. Misplaced Pages (as I have explained on the Denis Avey page discussion board), should give all info regarding the person and his book without bias or preference. Yet you refer to the book by Coward but have not included this relevant and important info about its inauthenticity? :-o Why is that?

Therefore I would prefer including here (aswell as on the author's BLP page) that there exist problematical differences with his earlier accounts and that there exists controversy over this book and it's credibility? Problems have been identified with the details of his concentration camp story and with differences in his account in the book with those of his interviews and talks.

Mr. Avey's earlier verbal accounts included details of a person he called 'Stoker', an Australian POW who worked stoking the crematoria in Birkenau which was not included in his book presumably after his co-author researched and discovered it was known that there is no record of the imprisonment of a British or Australian POW who worked with the Jewish Sonderkommando but that there was an Australian, Donald Watt, who had published a book in 1995 claiming to be a stoker at Auschwitz and after it was shown that there is no evidence he had even been in Auschwitz-Birkenau his account was later exposed as fraudulent and discredited.
Mr. Avey’s swap story is very similar to another published account in a book titled "The Password Is Courage" which is accepted as fraudulent. That book was written by another former PoW at camp E715, Charles Coward.
Mr. Avey said when he entered the Monowitz camp he marched under the "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign yet that sign was at not at Auschwitz III but at Auschwitz I, six miles away.
the camp which he says he smuggled himself into differed in the accounts. In the taped account, Avey said he swapped with a prisoner in Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the book account he wrote that he swapped with an inmate of the labour camp, Auschwitz III-Monowitz).
the name of the prisoner with whom he exchanged places differed in the accounts. In the book, he wrote that he swapped with a Dutch Jewish inmate called ‘Hans’ and smuggled himself into Auschwitz III. In a 2009 Daily Mail interview and in a talk to Oxford students he said he swapped with prisoner Ernst Lobethal into Auschwitz II, or Birkenau.
criticism has been made concerning the length of time after the event allowed to pass before first narrating the swap incident.
Mr Avey partly explained the delay by claiming that military authorities after the war were not interested in his account. Yet in 1947 he had declined the invitation to make an affidavit of his time as a POW, when contacted by American prosecutors who were documenting camp conditions for war crimes trials.
Yad Vashem, the Holocaust remembrance authority, has said it is "unable to substantiate his account of the prisoner swap" although it states this is not a criticism of it.

This is the same length as the previous article which contained no explicit mention of controversy, just similarities with Coward's Book. The main point of the article should be to inform of the content of the book and I've tried to give a structure outline which everyone can assent to. Because it's fairly brief hopefully people will read tio the end where they can see that a major element in the book, from which it derives its title, is disputed. I agree with you that everything is Avey's account and 'said that' 'claimed that' and similar terms are in order through the narrative, but the cigarettes part of the story has been confirmed and we can say he did' rather than 'he claimed that he did' there.

Hamlet says 'Brevity is the soul of wit' I very much feel that if you want to be read you need to keep it reasonably brief. Sceptic1954 (talk) 13:58, 24 September 2012 (UTC)Sceptic1954

I have now edited the article to give the rewritten version which I consider sets out the may plot structure in a neutral tone. I put a brief mention of the controversy attached to the book at the end.

You appear not to understand the details of the dispute. E.g. Mr. Avey's cigarette story is NOT confirmed. A Jewish inmate and his sister HAVE confimed a PoW calling himself 'Ginger' made contact and delivered cigarettes. On the talkpage of Denis Avey I referred you to the evidence of this person being the British PoW 'Ginger' Parry, and NOT Mr. Avey. There has been no evidence supplied that Mr. Avey was ever nicknamed 'Ginger' or had ginger coloured hair. Agreed, it IS A FACT that Mr. Avey has claimed to be that 'Ginger'. But that is all that is confirmed by this.

Mr. Avey also claimed originally to have tried to contact a PoW called 'Stoker' who he says operated the cremtoria at Auschwitz. This has been shown to have been a 'memory' based on reading a fraudulent book by Mr. Watt. MY concern is that you have written the article with the viewpoint that Mr. Avey's controversial and contested account is genuine and have merely added that there is some vague and largely unspecified controversy about it. So I still would prefer that the article be written from a more neutral viewpoint. Do you understand yet what i mean by that yet? And still no mention of Auschwitz-Birkenau museum/memorial chief, Mr. Piotr Setkiewicz? --Mystichumwipe (talk) 10:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

M I have listened to parts of Avey's interview with Lyn Smith and there is no doubt in my mind that that Avey is 'Ginger'. Those, which is unfortunately most of the world, who do not have access to this, are perfectly justified in wondering whether Avey is 'Ginger', indeed I did before I heard it. I don't think you can find any 'reliable source' where the question is raised. (Whay wiki regards as a reliable source and what I might regard as a reliable source may not always be one and the same.) My rewrite will not be neutral for Wikiwatcher either, he will think it too anti-Avey because I mention the Daily Mail article.

The publishers 'Notes on Sources' addresses the Donald Watt question and there is no dispute that something Avey read comparatively recently had become a memory of the war when he gave his interview to Lyn Smith. I do think that is an important indication of his confused memory. It's more for brevity that I didn't mention it. Maybe there should be an Wiki article for this Donald Watt which we could link to. As Piotr S has rowed back a little in the latest programme I didn't mention him - he is in the Guy Walters Daily Mail article.

Speaking personally I am definitely not in the business of attacking Avey personally. I'd much rather have a go at the BBC for running it when it couldn't be substantiated. I think that sensational stories like this cloud proper understanding of the Holocaust, and their second programme acknowledges this possibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sceptic1954 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Mysticumswipe I think this article needs to be treated as a BLP. In line with what you have said I have made a separate 'criticisms' section. As we are talking specifically about books here I thought this a good place to mention the similarities with Charles Coward. If you agree with my plot summary please say so, I tried to get away from the 'heroic' tone of the earlier version and be more analytic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sceptic1954 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Mystichumswipe: Having looked at several editions of this book - it's been through about 8 I think, the words are not on all of them. So I've added clarification to what is in Daily Mail. So it's not sourced but I know it to be accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sceptic1954 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikiwatcherplease note the current ratings for this article. The ratings for Denis Avey were equivalent before I last amended that article.Sceptic1954 (talk) 08:57, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

^ Collett-White, Mike (26 April 2011). "Veteran defends disputed story of Auschwitz heroics". Reuters. Retrieved 17 September 2012.
Cite error: The named reference newstatesman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Walters-White (8 April 2011). "Did this British PoW really smuggle himself into Auschwitz to expose the Holocaust... or is his account pure fantasy and an insult to millions who died there?first=Guy". Daily mail. Retrieved 18 September 2012.
Cite error: The named reference Times was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Impugning the Imperial War Museum and a hero with opinions

The article has essentially been revised to imply that Denis Avey, the book's author, is a complete fraud. Therefore, the article also implies that the British government and the expert historians at the Imperial War Museum have been duped into awarding a British soldier one of its highest honors. It accomplishes this implication in various places with non-neutral statements such as the following:

The book is described as "an assumed autobiographical book";
He "became a recipient of a British Hero of the Holocaust award, based solely on what he described in it";
"The book has become a subject of considerable controversy."

However, none of the above are supported. First, an author's autobiography can not be redefined as an "assumed autobiography." Second, he received his award after extensive interviews with expert historians at the war museum along with the Prime Minister, and not " based solely on what he described in it," as the lead now states.

Nor is it the subject of "considerable controversy," or realistically any controversy, as only a single writer, Guy Walters, has published an article questioning the truth of Avey's account for the Daily Mail, a popular British tabloid. The article in the Daily Mail includes the opinions of Piotr Setkiewicz, past prisoners, etc. who say they cannot confirm or deny Avey accomplished that what he described, with Setkiewicz simply pointing out that breaking into or out of Auschwitz "would have been extremely risky," an obvious fact. Similar personal opinions claim that it would be hard to do and therefore was improbable. The implication of fraud by Avey is further supported by synthesizing details from the life of another author, Charles Coward, whose similar story was also questioned by doubters, although never proven to be false.

Per guidelines, such contentious material improperly sourced or supported, which effectively attacks someone's reputation, should be removed. --Light show (talk) 00:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

If you happen to have a wp:conflict of interest, please state it upfront, as advised in our policy/guidelines. The Ynetnews article informs us that the publishing house has been fiercely defending the story since the controversy broke out, which is not without the motive, but that does not mean that we can still manipulate what has already been said by others. For once, you have falsely claimed in your summary (quote): restored correct source which was in fact the same daily paper, the Daily Mail, a popular British tabloid (as you say) which published both articles, the one you chose to name as "correct" and the article by Guy Walters which you disapprove of. Please do not lie, that a single writer questioned the truth of Avey's account. The same paper that informed the public about the award in April 2011, also published the article about the growing controversy. The Ynetnews article however (one article I included to bring some light into this matter), clearly stated that the story cannot be confirmed. Period. In the end, Setkiewicz was correct in his prediction about what was going to happen next. Poeticbent talk 01:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Light show. Per BLP is you want to state that this is an "Assumed" biography, you need to have reliable sources to back it up, the same thing with "based soley on what he described in it ". That this book is controversial is backed up with reliable sources, best I can tell. Poeticbent your post looks rather incivil, you may want to re-word that KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 15:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate you desire to help, but how on earth is my comment uncivil? The writing is on the wall. The source article in Daily Mail has quoted the World Jewish Congress as saying: "We are deeply concerned about the charge that a significant part of Mr Avey’s story — i.e. that he supposedly smuggled himself into the Auschwitz-Buna concentration camp — is exaggerated if not completely fabricated," said the organisation ... "We didn’t find anyone to confirm it," said Irena Steinfeldt, a spokeswoman for Yad Vashem. "We went through several testimonies of Jewish inmates, and none of them mentioned that it happened. There was nothing to substantiate it." Poeticbent talk 16:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

You've said nothing new. If anything, you've supported all the complaints noted above. The strongest statement that you could find came from Yaeger's essay, where she simply affirms that the WJC is "deeply concerned about the the charge . . ." Of course they're concerned, when some UK tabloid blasts a story by some college history major (at the time) calling Avey's story a fake. They even called it a "News" story, slightly better than these. But that's what tabloids like the Daily Mail must do to sell ads. --Light show (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

There are a host of sources other than the Daily Mail questioning Avey's claim: the Sunday Times and Frankfurter Allgemein for example. I'm not aware that anyone has impugned the integrity of the Imperial War Museum, one of their researchers Lyn Smith was doggedly defending Avey when a lot of people were questioning his testimony. that's about it. Sceptic1954 (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The possible irony is that had his wartime story been written as a novel, as implied, he might have achieved even greater fame, akin to other British fantasy writers, like Tolkien, Rowling, or Lewis Carroll. Anyone who took over 60 years to write the story, maybe called Denis's Adventures in . . ., might be held in higher esteem today for his wild imagination, instead of simply describing his recollections. --Light show (talk) 19:10, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

purported and award

It is only as purported autobiography if it is not by the subject. Robinson Crusoe might be called a purported autobiography. The veracity of any autobiography might be questioned, here nobody questions most of the book only that part which gives rise to the title. There is enough in the lead about his claims being questioned without needing to add a confusing adjective in the first sentence, but if you wish to find a way to highlight this further there is a better way than this. I personally think there is enough in the lead and Avey is a living person.

He received the award before the book came out and before it was even written. The book was commissioned on the back of the award, not the award given on the basis of the book.

If you are going to refer to some policy please quote directly. 93.80.114.149 (talk) 13:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC) These edits by Sceptic1954, sorry I am unable to log in at this time.Sceptic1954 (talk) 13:49, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit war

I would like to encourage editors with possible interest in improving the online sales of this book, based on our Misplaced Pages article, to please reveal your identity, and refrain from any further revisions to this entry with the aim of silencing dissent and independent critical thought. Thank you, Poeticbent talk 19:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Can you please specify who you mean? I reverted you twice today because you had suggested without evidence that I might have a COI. Please report that to an administrator if you think it out of order. Now I have invited you to discuss matters if you wish to revert back to your edit, please go ahead instead of making baseless and in fact absurd insinuations that I might have a COI. I think I am doing a good job on ensuring neutrality on these pages if I get attacked from both sides but if you actually looked at my edits or talk I don't see how you could begin to think I have a COI. I have plenty of emails in which I take the publishers to task for absurdities, especially their claim about the NZ soldier reported in Auschwitz in someone else's memoir. BTW is the book still in print, or has it had a second edition? I thought it was just being quietly forgotten, except by James Long.

Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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