Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by PKtm (talk | contribs) at 23:00, 23 July 2006 (→The Way I See It...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome!

Thank you all for agreeing to mediate this issue at hand, which is namely to find consensus on how the episodes of Lost should be written about. From what I can tell, the two opposing viewpoints are basically whether each episode should have its own article, or be grouped with other articles from the same season. Currently, I've seen it done both ways on Misplaced Pages. However, I saw a proposal before (I cannot seem to find it now, and I've been looking for about 30 minutes), which I find to be very relevant to this discussion. Basically, it proposed that TV articles should expand as such: At first, only have an article about the show. However, if the "Episodes" section becomes too long, then expand into seasons. However, if the seasons article becomes too long, then expand into individual episode articles. I've seen lists done two ways, with List of SHOW Episodes and List of SHOW Episodes (Season X), but the former is more prevalant across Misplaced Pages, as far as I can tell. Thoughts? Concerns? -^demon /11:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to start out, one of the arguments being size, I point out that the Season 2 episode summaries is 159 kilobytes long; but Misplaced Pages:Article_size says 32 KB is strongly recommended as the maximum. I also find it somewhat difficult to scroll down that page and look for specific info, which is a "readability issue" and one of the reasons to consider dividing up a page according to Misplaced Pages:Article_size. Since one of the few exceptions on that guideline page is that there might not be a natural point to cut up large lists, I say that dividing up into individual ep summaries is pretty natural, highly organized, and very useful. ArgentiumOutlaw 01:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with ArgentiumOutlaw. When there is a great deal of information on one page, then it makes sense to break the long page up into shorter pages. In the case of Lost, where the mystery behind the show makes it difficult to create short summaries (since we're never sure which details in a particular episode are most relevant), having all episodes on one page is excessive. I believe that polls have been conducted on this issue, and the majority consensus was that there should be separate episode pages, but the main stakeholders refused to accept consensus, saying that only those who regularly edited the articles should really have deciding votes. --Elonka 23:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for my late reply. This issue has been discussed so much that it's difficult to keep talking about it without repeating yourself. Are the article sizes a problem? Yes, of course. But one thing we have seen with the individual articles is they tend to include more fancruft, speculation, and information that has no relevance to the recurring story lines. So we have to make a trade off: either one long article that contains synoptic information about each episode, or many, shorter episode articles that contain a lot of crap. You'll notice that after the episode guidelines agreed upon in that discussion were adopted, the episode summaries did a 180 . As a result, the entire first season was summarized in 75kb, which is quite small considering what an involved show Lost is. I know we can do the same with season 2. One thing that really concerns me about the individual articles is that they are so long and in-depth that an argument can be made that they violate copyright law because some of them give a blow by blow recap of everything that happened in an episode. So reading one of those episode summaries could arguably replace the need to watch an episode, causing ABC to lose money. Jtrost ( | C | _#) 01:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe the reason that the individual articles arent that great right now (eg too long, scattered fancruft), is that people dont want to work on something that will potentially be deleted, merged or lost in these discussions. The reason that I don't edit any of these pages is because they might be deleted by a discussion similar to what we're having now. If the editors for both the long page and the individual eps came together and worked on the individual articles, it would solve the size/clarity problem, and it would eventually remove all of the fancruft and lengthy details. Also, I dont believe that organizing these pages with the editors' convenience in removing fancruft in mind is a good idea. These pages should be organized so that the reader can benefit, not the editors; but I am not suggesting that it is ok to have organized pages at the cost of fancruft, I am merely saying that we should organize the pages with the reader in mind (like all wikipedia pages should be), and then work on fancruft as a seperate problem. To organize by the editors convenience in this case, is similar (but exagerated) to suggesting that we merge all television shows together so that it's easier for us to remove fancruft that sneaks in. One final comment, I don't believe that saying ABC will lose money if we create individual articles is a useful or relevent argument for putting everything on one page. ArgentiumOutlaw 07:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If people aren't willing to work on the individual articles because of the risk of deletion, then why do people edit the season articles? Don't those editors face the same risk? Also, fancruft is not the only issue with the individual articles. Many of them suffer from bad grammar, original research, and statement of facts that simply aren't true. Currently, such mistakes can go unnoticed for weeks at a time on these individual articles. If we worked together, we might be able to make the individual articles better than they are, but I don't think that we could keep them at a standard of quality just because of the sheer amount of them. I agree with what you said about convenience to the reader, and I think that the season format serves this purpose much more effectively. A reader does not have to scroll down the page, and if a reader is looking for a particular episode, they can click the link on the top of the page. With the individual articles, the reader would find the articles easier to navigate, but would simply find a bad article that may not serve his or her needs. --Kahlfin 18:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Way I See It...

The major obstacle preventing us from breaking the season articles down into individual episodes is the perceived lowering of content quality and higher risk of AfD when broken down. However, it was mentioned above, and I agree:

And it's true. All articles, if poorly maintained, run a risk of AfD. It comes down to whether or not you're willing to put forth the effort to maintain a (in this case rather large) collection of articles about a subject that you obviously are all very interested in. Now, I know fancruft is an issue in TV series especially, but large sets of articles on a subject can be maintained. Look at The Simpsons. They have an absolutely enormous series, and every episode has its own article. Opinions? -^demon /00:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The threat of changing the way we database episode content is the reason that individual episodes might not be up to par at this point. Poor maintenance and hesitation to edit comes from the existance of this discussion and all the points brought up in the List of Lost episodes talk page. Right now things are changing, and the process has halted maintaining the episode pages. This might just be an opinion, one shared with many editors mind you. So, let's look at the facts. Jtrost pointed out that the Season 1 article "did a 180." The article, at one point, was 85 KB, and through editing was reduced to 75KB. The Season 1 article is currently 82KB long. In addition, the Season 2 article is 158 KB long. 158 KB. These statements cannot be denied. Regarding standards on Misplaced Pages, which is extremely important for readers, these articles fail Misplaced Pages's guidelines for article size, miserably. Why are these pages so big? Because Lost episodes undoubtedly are complex. There is so much to say about each episode- general plot, mythology, character crossovers... While this complexity isn't a bad thing, it's the details that raised Season 1 from 75 right back up to 82KB. Details are important, and we can't just say we will keep reducing the season articles. We can't. An effort to minimize episode summaries on season pages will just result in other editors' reinserting the information. There is evidence to support this. Individual episode articles are appropriate for recording detailed Lost episodes for this reason. Details can undoubtedly lead to fancruft, yes, but I do not believe it is so much harder for editors to patrol individual episode pages. I mean, we do not have a huge article titled Main Characters of Lost. Each main character has an individual page, detailed and yet still maintained efficiently. If Lost episode editors could strive to produce great work like the character pages, Lost episodes would be databased most accurately and helpful to readers. -- Wikipedical 01:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly the point I was trying to make, and I completely agree. Also I'd like to address the quote that was highlighted in this section and explain. The reason that the season summaries are still edited despite risk, is because that page has a few editors that will spend every minute of the day trying to improve the page. My point was that if only one of the two we are deciding on (episode vs season summaries) is chosen, more of the lost editors will begin contributing (including me) to that chosen page. To make it clear, I'm only saying that more people will edit and help remove fancruft and bad grammar, once only one format exists. Regardless of all that, I agree with wikipedical, that we can make it better for the user if we show the same amount of tenacity in the episode summaries as there currently is in many many other places. ArgentiumOutlaw 08:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Details are important? I disagree. If we start citing minute details in LOST articles, where do we stop? Do we talk about what Jack is wearing in every single episode? Do we describe every single equation, quote, and latin phrase featured on the Blast Door Map in Lockdown? If we start citing minor details, these articles are going to spiral out of control. The point of an episode summary is to summarize the episode, not to help someone who might be noting details of a particular episode. I believe that individual articles are too massive a project for LOST editors to maintain at this point. As for the example you cited with the Character pages, Characters are completely different. There are currently 18 characters of LOST, and if this changes at all, it will only increase by a small number. If we have somewhere around 18 pages for the entire run of the show, editors can keep these and only these pages on their watchlists. Episodes, on the other hand, are completely different. There are currently 49 episodes of LOST, and with an estimated 6-season run, this number will increase to somewhere around 144. We cannot maintain 49 pages right now, and during the regular season, this number will increase by 1 every single week. Every week, another page pops up for someone to watch and maintain, and we certainly aren't gaining another dedicated editor every week. And as for The Simpsons, the Simpsons pages have many dedicated editors to maintain their episode pages as opposed to the handful that maintain LOST. And still, individual articles do not seem to work for them. Take a look at The Two Mrs. Nahasapeemapetilons, Little Girl in the Big Ten, and Bye Bye Nerdie among others. Many Simpsons episode articles run rampant with bad grammar and POV. If it doesn't work for their large, active community, it certainly won't work for us. --Kahlfin 20:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Though I appreciate the intent of some editors to maintain a personal eye on every Lost article in order to keep them clean and high quality, I have a lot of trouble with any argument that says that the quantity of Lost articles should be kept small, so as to minimize pressure on their watchlist. By that reasoning, Misplaced Pages should never have expanded past a few thousand articles, but it seems to be doing fantastically well with 1.2 million and growing, because different people pay attention to different sections. As I've stated before in the talkpage discussion, I believe in Misplaced Pages's power to self-regulate. If there's a lot of "fancruft" being added to an article, then I believe that there will be enough other readers of the article to help edit it back to neutrality. Nobody "owns" the Lost articles (see WP:OWN), and we shouldn't be basing a decision on whether or not to split articles up, solely on the opinion of editors who say they don't want their watchlist to expand. When we've had a poll on this in the past (which was allowed to run for only one week in April ), there was basically a 2 to 1 consensus to split things up into episode articles, but when some editors tried to implement (what I saw as) the consensus, others stepped in and started reverting changes, saying that there wasn't consensus. When another poll was started in June, the clear majority was to split articles up, though other editors kept claiming "deadlock", and then this mediation was started Talk:Episodes_of_Lost_(season_2)#Vote:_On_the_articles. I don't think we're deadlocked here, I just think we have a minority of editors who are refusing to admit that there's consensus to split up the articles, by continually reverting the will of the majority so that the minority can maintain control of what they regard as "their" articles. Again, I don't think that they're acting in bad faith -- I think that they have a genuine desire to do a good job. But I do think that this minority has to learn to let go, rather than trying to maintain personal control of every single Lost article. --Elonka 00:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I've said this before, elsewhere in this long-running debate, but I'll do so again here. Let's just look at the results of having separate articles since about April. The results are clear (and daunting) -- compare any two episodes and you'll see that in many (even most) cases, the individual episode article tends to be of much greater length but with lower quality, including obvious speculation, original research, non-notable items, and fancruft. The individual episode articles tend to use use language such as "most likely a reference" and "possibly an allusion". They include the pointing out of continuity errors, which is fan material, not encyclopedic material.

"Since previous votes were mentioned, let me again point out the following about that:

• Virtually every long-standing contributor to Lost-related articles voted to keep the season articles and not have the individual episode articles.
• With no consensus having emerged, we've let the individual episode articles "happen" since late March or so.
• For a couple of reasons, several long-standing contributors (myself among them) who had declared their lack of support for individual articles have refrained from contributing/editing those individual articles. Whatever you may think of that reasoning, it's undeniable that it has allowed the results to speak for themselves of the two approaches.

So, four months later, without the attention of the various seasoned Lost editors, these articles have deteriorated and contain material that is contrary to Misplaced Pages goals and tenets. If those editors had participated, the articles would have almost certainly been kept in check in these matters. But the editors I'm referring to don't want the inundation of the multiple articles, for precisely this reason! It obviously falls on their shoulders to keep out the trivia etc. If they're not there, the trivia mounts up, literally. The people on the side of the individual articles have (for whatever reason) not stepped up to follow the Misplaced Pages tenets. Without the stops and checks and balances represented by dogged attention to these tenets, people seem to simply follow the "more must be better" philosophy, but more is not better, and we can see that tangibly now.

The results speak for themselves, in other words.

-- PKtm 02:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I am totally against this giving extra weight to the opinion of the "seasoned Lost editors" who seem to have claimed ownership of the Lost articles. Misplaced Pages works on consensus, and it also works on the concept of inviting in outside editors to give third-party opinions. To say that the outside opinions should not be given due consideration because they're from editors who aren't intimately involved with the editing of those pages, is counter-intuitive. As for the "quality" of the various articles, what I've seen, is some of the people that you describe as "stakeholders", actively sabotaging the work of other editors. Speaking for myself, I have to admit that it made me less likely to want to participate in the articles, because I couldn't tell which version was going to stick around, and I didn't want to put a lot of work into something, only to have it be deleted. So, it's my opinion that once we finally nail down the consensus (and get people to abide by consensus), that the quality of the articles will improve, because everyone will be pulling in the same direction. --Elonka 22:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No, that's actually not at all what I said. I'm not saying that outside opinions not be given due consideration. And I have no idea what you refer to when you speak of anyone "sabotaging" the work of other editors. What I am saying is that there are opinions, and there are now observable results. What I am saying is let's look at reality: Lost invites a ton of participation, often from new or less frequent editors. The seasoned editors have helped diligently enforce basic Misplaced Pages tenets against a pretty incessant surge of trivia, speculation, theorizing, rumor inclusion. That work is to be valued, not scorned or dismissed. Without those editors, the results are clearly worse, as evidenced in the individual episode articles. No one has stepped up to keep the quality reasonable on those individual articles. People said that they would, but they have not; some proponents of the individual articles have even participated themselves in inserting unsourced rumors and speculation, so the basic Misplaced Pages philosophy is just not there perhaps. Given those results, it seems clear to me that it makes sense to do what those seasoned editors (with good reason) favor who are actually helping keep back the surge of fancruft: stick to season articles with sections for each episode. The idea is to encourage participation by the people who are helping, not drive them away with a surge of unmanageable articles in the Lost arena.

So again, let's look at results, not opinions, and let's think about what Misplaced Pages is supposed to stand for, and what's more likely to get us there. -- PKtm 23:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Just for Clarification

Just so I can better grasp who is on each side of this debate, can you each please sign below, with your respected affiliation, if you will? -^demon 18:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Seasonal Articles

• Jtrost ( | C | _#) 21:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
• PKtm 23:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Individual Episodes

• ArgentiumOutlaw 01:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Wikipedical 01:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Elonka 23:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Other, Please Explain

An Idea, Your Thoughts?

Also, in thinking about this earlier today, an idea came to mind, and I'd like your thoughts on it. What if we were to begin by having season articles, and then slowly break out into indivdual episodes, as they required? For example, in Season 1, episodes 1, 2, 6, and 9 might have their own articles, whereas the rest of the season is still within a joint season article (which accordingly links to the episodes where needed)? This would allow you to keep the more minor episodes from having their own (AfD-prone) articles, and the more important ones could be allowed on their own. This also cuts down on the length of season articles, as well as helping to keep the overall number of articles to maintain to a bit lower (and more manageable) number. Thoughts? -^demon 18:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to be offensive, but I strongly believe we need to affirm one system as the system. In this case, I do not believe we should have overlapping systems any longer. If we have some episodes missing from season episodes and some episodes as individual episodes, gradually and eventually I think the whole season will make it into both systems. This discussion is important and could set a precedent for databasing other television episodes, not just LOST. But I think all of us here can say that we appreciate the time and effort you're taking to help us out. -- Wikipedical 22:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedical, we definetely should pick just one of the methods of organization. If both exist the way you described, the information will be somewhat chaotic and unstructured. This would be confusing and frustrating for the users who are looking for information on the episodes. In my opinion anyway. ArgentiumOutlaw 01:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not fully opposed to this idea. While each episode of Lost has an involved storyline, in the grand scheme of the show (or what we have seen so far) many of the stories within each show really have no relevance (i.e. Hurley's golf course). Some episodes, or parts of episodes could be considered fillers, and therefore the information contained within that episode wouldn't be encyclopedic. I think if we are able to trim down some of the less important episodes, and expand out some of the more important episodes, we can find a happy medium. I wouldn't mind adding a dozen more articles to my watchlist and contributing to them if they really do warrant their own article. However, having 50+ Lost episode articles will inevitably cause problems, and it already has. Jtrost ( | C | _#) 21:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I am a big fan of LOST and am dedicated enough to help maintain its Misplaced Pages article. But frankly we can't and shouldn't decide what episodes are more "important" to the reader. Hurley's golf course has "no relevance"... to what? The plot? Maybe. Again, I don't think that we can just generalize that episodes that cover more plot are more important. We should trim speculation, repetition, and details that are truly truly excessive, such as Jack's costmues and every latin phrase on the Blast Door map. But other details that are not as important to the plot, such as character pasts and information that is not relevant to Michael's finding Walt, are what make up LOST and are definately encyclopedic. -- Wikipedical 02:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Amount of detail?

It looks like that so far we are as deadlocked as ever about this issue. However, I would like to come to an agreement about one issue and then from there we could possibly come to a consensus about episode summaries. Earlier in the discussion I stated that having the individual articles may infringe on ABC's copyright of the show because reading some of the episode summaries give a blow by blow account of an episode, and really do replace the need to watch that episode. As examples, see Pilot, Three Minutes, and Live Together, Die Alone. I don't think this amount of detail is required, as much of the information touches on fancruft, which isn't a Misplaced Pages policy, but still a good thing to avoid in pop culture articles. I would like to hear what everyone believes is a suitable amount of detail to include in episode summaries. As a starting point, take a look at these guidelines that were originally developed, and used to rewrite the first season article:

• should be limited to 500 words.
• should not contain brilliant prose, fancruft, speculation, or original research.
• should only mention events important to the central character and his/her flashback, events that relate to the ongoing or future story lines, and events that emphasize the story elements and thematic motifs sections in the main Lost article. (note: I added thematic motifs since it was added as a section after these guidelines were developed) Jtrost ( | C | _#) 21:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good start on these guidelines. I'd suggest adding something along the following lines:

• should contain little or no references to actual dialog, other than (as a rare exception) lines that are pivotal to plot swerves or character revelations

-- PKtm 21:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we need to compromise. I think I'm on board with these guidelines, as well as PKtm's addition. However, I think we need to verify some of the wording here. Hurley's golf course was brought up in the previous section of this discussion. Now according to ABC's official episode summary (for Solitary in season 1), "A mysterious woman takes Sayid prisoner, and tells him a disturbing truth about the island. Hurley builds a golf course to relieve the survivors' stress." So I'm not sure what to say about this still- should we take into account ABC's own summary? Also, I think "Pilot" and "Live Together, Die Alone" should be exceptions as they are 2-hour episodes. So can we say 500 words per hour episode? And I think recap episodes should not receieve any summary but be briefly mentioned (whether on the top areas of List of Lost episodes, or the Episodes of Lost (season 1), no seperate sections). What do you all think? -- Wikipedical 03:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that although we should remove unnecessary details, we should keep a lot of the descriptions of the scenes (eg in Live Together, Die Alone). In Live Together, Die Alone, the page looks to be extremely detailed only because that page describes 2 episodes, and only then, each part is slightly too detailed. I think details like the name of the book that Desmond was holding should remain, yet a detail like Mr. Eko carving 922 on his club is too much (unless its importance is noted in some other way such as in a future episode). I think if we oversummarize these episodes, the importance of the various complications and intricacies will be lost. Those elaborate complexities in the individual scenes and episodes are very important to the series and should not be overlooked by anyone attempting to understand the show or any of its episodes.

I'd also like to point out again that the episode details don't really have much to do with what we're supposed to be discussing right now. This topic is completely different than the original, and we might want to solve it in a seperate discussion after the current request for mediation is finished. Therefore I suggest that we not waste too much time discussing this. ArgentiumOutlaw 16:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)