Misplaced Pages

Alsee hmm, I am not sure where did the assumptions of dating service and random facebook users come from, but I have replied to your points on Project managers talk page. Thanks for your points Risker, agreed that "moderation" could better be replaced with "maintenance", also agreed on the need of complete deletion, and sending emergency email to ensure no real threat/damage is taking place. This should be something to develop for the upcoming sprints.--Melamrawy (WMF) (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Melamrawy (WMF) Sorry, Dating Network was a Wiki-joke. WP:NOTDATINGSERVICE is the same policy link as WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK. The policy says in part:

Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they should be used primarily to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. Limited biographical information is allowed, but user pages should not function as personal webpages or be repositories for large amounts of material that is irrelevant to collaborating on Misplaced Pages. If you are looking to make a personal webpage or blog or to post your résumé, please make use of one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet account. The focus of user pages should not be social networking, or amusement, but rather providing a foundation for effective collaboration.

Lists of "my favorite bands" are out-of-scope distraction from our work, and in bulk they become disruptive. Alsee (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Right Alsee, maintaining someone else's list of favorite bands, should be anyone's task at first place, as the drafted document explains, the point behind discussing methods of flagging, revision and deletion, is mainly to ensure that legal policies are met. Something, which regardless of this feature could still be violated, with content that exists under userspace, with creating a book or when multiple public watchlists are enabled for desktop, at some point. --Melamrawy (WMF) (talk) 07:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I request a restructure of my current TBAN

Preamble

This is a request to change, not remove my restrictions. I understand that I cannot use this request as a means to re-argue the ban that was placed on me, further, I have notified the banning administrator User:Fluffernutter already and have provided a link to this discussion. Per the conditions of that ban I may appeal at The administrators noticeboard or The Arbitration Enforcement Noticeboard . I am choosing to use the Administrators Noticeboard so as to get the maximum input of the community involved. I am also aware that once I post on the AN board, my conduct goes under a microscope and I may be subject to flat, airborne, returning objects flying in my direction. I appologize , in advance, for the length of this report. I felt it necessary to detail my behavior and those involved so as to give a fair report to both sides of the issue. I have sub-divded the argument so as to avoid the "Wall-O-Text" effect. I have further {hat} / {hab} 'ed the details to make reading this request easier.

Brief history of the ban

* I was topic banned for 6 months on October 1, 2013 by Fluffernutter.

* Six months elapsed and my ban was lifted.

* On April 14th , 2014 I was indef banned by Fluffernutter.

* The exact nature of my ban is : topic banned from "all pages and discussions related to transgender issues, broadly construed" .

* Record of the topic ban can be here .

My proposed outcome

I am , again, not requesting that my topic ban be lifted, but rather, restructured. Specifically:

* I request that I continue to be topic banned, broadly construed to only the topic of Chelsea Manning , my edit summary promising to edit war with Fluffernutter cannot be construed any other way other than disruptive, even though I never carried out such a promise, as far as I'm concerned, it's proof that in that article, and solely in that article, I demonstrated disruptive conduct, as such a topic ban was clearly earned on my part.

* Fluffernutter has also topic banned me from MOS:ID under the same discretionary sanction. I ask for it to be lifted with the understanding that: I am to avoid MOS:ID for 6 months, broadly construed, after 6 months time, I may revert obvious vandalism only, six months after that, I can request a lifting of sanction from that page completly, and if consensus is that it be lifted, then good, otherwise, let consensus dictate what restrictions, if any should be given to me.specifically on MOS:ID.

* I would request that I be allowed to edit any other articles relating to transgender issues. There never was any history of disruption across that whole topic of transgender issues or people, only on one specific topic in one specific article, thus a topic ban for all such articles is punitive and not preventative.

KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 11:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support as Proposer KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 15:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• TL;DR If you want any support for this proposal, please shorten it (or provide a summary). You know as well as I do that a lot of people aren't going to slog through this wall-o'-text. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment OK... a bunch of stuff's been hatted up - creating a brief summary. Thanks for the suggestion. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Question - How would any disruptive behavior on transgender related articles be handled if it occurs? Would you expect it to be treated like any other editor with incremental warnings (which for inexperienced editors amounts to a 5-strikes-you're-out policy), or would you expect to be under a higher level of scrutiny with fewer (or perhaps no) warnings? Just curious how you envision this. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

*Answer EvergreenFir Per my agreement with Floquenbeam I would be on 0RR on Transgender articles (I'm by default on it anyway ), also per that agreement, any discussion that I get involved in , where at least 3 users in good standing disagree with me, I would need to drop what ever it is I'm discussing and leave it be, so this would take care of disruptive behavior. However, if I screw up , because I've been topic banned I'd fully expect a higher level of scrutiny. I'd say 1 warning only, if I fail for whatever reason to heed that warning, I get TBAN'ed again. I'm not a newbie, I know what 3RR and NPA is, so I would have no excuse. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 18:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Seems like a reasonable restructuring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose User has history of recommencing disruptive behaviour directly after bans/blocks. Behaviour on Manning was particularly egregious. Not encouraged by the appeal the second the moratorium on appeal expired either, unless the user can show us some edits they think need making so urgently. Begoon  21:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Look down at the next topic, I think this is a retaliatory strike against me for my comment on unbanning Peter Damien. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC) _{Struck out as a good-faith move. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)}

No Kosh, it's a genuine analysis. I looked through your talkpage archives shortly after you posted this, long before Peter's appeal was ever mooted. Not everything's a battle, even if you want to treat it as such. AGF, y'know. Fix the sig, please, it's ugly. Begoon  21:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, tell you what, just like I offered to below, if consensus says I'm wrong, I'll strike my comment. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't care. You accused me of a "retaliatory strike". It's bollocks, but strike it or leave it as you see fit. No skin off my nose either way. The sig is an eyesore, though, did I mention that? Begoon  21:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I've got to agree that the signature is both a bit of an eyesore, and, well, at this point, kind of dated. Nimoy's been dead a month and a half at this point, and keeping it for this long does look, well, weird. John Carter (talk) 21:30, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, I love the Nimoy tribute, it's the "look at me, I'm the biggest, most noticeable, blurriest thing on the page" thing that makes my eyes sore. Anyway, that's a discussion for somewhere else, and Kosh has had it drawn to his attention many times before. That's the kind of stubbornness that makes me uneasy about this request, actually. Oh look, we're back on topic. Begoon  21:38, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

2 users have asked me to change my signature, so , consider it done. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 21:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Lose. the. shadow. I'm a huge B5 fan, so yeah, shadows. But lose it. It's visually offensive. That's an opinion, and I do acknowledge your willingness to consider change. Just consider change to something that doesn't overwhelm people's eyeballs. That's a request, nothing more. Begoon  21:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree on the sig, fix it for real. You're not exactly showing a lot of cooperative and collegial spirit for someone who wants a topic ban adjustment. BMK (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Lose the shadow. It's distracting and unclear. Try to listen to your colleagues when they raise a genuine concern. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Heck yes, kill the shadow and make the whole thing less huge. IMHO, even your revised sig does two things, both of which are bad for you. It makes you look egotistical (ME!ME!ME!) and it distracts from what you're actually saying. --Dweller (talk) 10:32, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I like artistic signatures, sorry about that :) I did change it again, no shadow this time. Hopefully this is a bit better. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:59, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not. Now, part of it is so faint it makes me think my eyesight is failing even as I read it. BMK (talk) 11:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Changing colors is pretty easy.KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Much better, thanks. BMK (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it looks cool and I was thinking of making a sig like that but I won't. Don't want to hurt others eyes. Popish Plot (talk) 20:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, let's. I'm still opposed, for the reasons I gave above, but open to persuasion. You didn't answer the question about what edits you want to make that you're currently prevented from making. Maybe I didn't phrase it that well. I'll rephrase it: What edits do you want to make that you're currently prevented from making? Thanks for adjusting the sig. Begoon  18:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Begoon Sorry, I missed your question the first time. At the moment, there are no edits that I need to make, however, I do vandal runs and my restrictions prevent me from removing vandalism on any transgender articles, also, my restrictions make it impossible for my to participate in any way on any issues that touch transgender issues. If allowed I to edit and particpate I would observe the agreement I have with Floquenbeam (0RR, no hatting anyone's stuff except mine, 3 users in good standing tell me to drop the stick, I drop it ). Thank you KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 19:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon Tagging on to the response of 19:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC), How frequently are you hitting TG articles during your vandal runs? What is the mean time to someone else noticing the vandalism (after you've spotted it) to being reverted? What specific topics would you have participated in had the restrictions on TG issues not been in place for you? I'm trying to establish a feeling for your influence/impact before I give my view. Hasteur (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Peter Damian appeal to revoke 2009 ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copied from Jimbo Wales' talk page. as requested. Begoon  20:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I am editor Peter Damian. I started contributing to Misplaced Pages in 2003, and started (or was the major contributor to) many articles in Misplaced Pages, including logic and set theory, architecture, London places, and in particular medieval logic and philosophy, on which I am a published author, . I was banned in August 2009 after accusing an administrator and ex-arbitrator of sockpuppeting.

After the ban I edited from other accounts, creating a number of articles and improving many others. This upset many Wikipedians – no one has ever complained to my knowledge about the quality of the content, but I was breaking the rules. So I stopped, and haven't touched Misplaced Pages in any significant way for nearly 3 years. (I occasionally edit Jimmy's page as an IP). I am a frequent contributor to Wikipediocracy and I wrote some of the exposés that found their way into the mainstream media.

I appeal to the community to revoke the ban of 2009. Most of the signatories of the ban are now either banned themselves, or have left, or were sockpuppet accounts created specifically to support the ban, but I welcome comments from other members of the community. user:Peter Damian

• End ban - I'll get this started. Does anybody remember what this ban was originally about? Or what great end has been served by alienating a subject expert from participation in writing the encyclopedia? "Peter" is a very reasonable voice at Wikipediocracy; he's capable of being a productive Wikipedian. There are plenty of critics of WMF and the dysfunctionality of some aspects of Misplaced Pages who are currently working to build the encyclopedia in a productive way — myself included. There has been enough water under the bridge. Carrite (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - HERE is the last stable version of Peter's courtesy-blanked User page. Carrite (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Carrite , , He even made it to . Since he has a history of socking (per Arbcom) I'd want to see a CU done to see that he hadn't socked prior to this writing this note. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 20:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages sure is a funny place. In the section above I see a topic ban appeal, placed around 20 seconds after it was permissible to do so, after the countdown template for appeal on his user page ticked to zero (no, really...), by a user whose talk page archives and contributions shriek conflict from day one, and don't improve much over time. Yeah, that's you, Kosh. And now you'd like a checkuser on a guy appealing a 5 year old ban? This truly is the twilight zone. Can you do something about that horrendous signature, by the way? Thanks. Begoon  20:55, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment Actually, my unban request was a day later (1 year and 1 day later ), yes, I had a countdown on my page, that's true. If I were banned from Misplaced Pages and wanted to get unbanned, I would totally expect a CU would be run on me to make sure I hadn't socked during my ban, as that would look pretty bad on my part, so it's not too far fetched to request that. However, if the consensus in this discussion is that a CU isn't necessary, I'll strike that request myself. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:03, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral (edit conflict) As a rule, I'm generally in favor of the Misplaced Pages:Standard offer, and as far as I can tell, the criteria are met here. But I do see an issue with the comment regarding the signatories of the ban. A surprisingly large number are blocked, a fair characterization on that account. A couple have left or renamed a bit of a stretch, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that one. There is only a single obvious sock in the version of the discussion linked from his block log, which to me makes the claim regarding the involvement of sockpuppets in the ban discussion seem rather dubious considering how lopsided the discussion was. More generally, focusing attention on who !voted for the ban, when its clear the ban was properly enacted with a strong consensus of !voting editors, makes me worry there may be a lingering battlefield mentality. Maybe I'm reading too much into that one sentence, lets hope so. Monty₈₄₅ 20:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Misplaced Pages:Standard offer. I think KoshVorlon's suggestion of verification a reasonable one. Gamaliel (talk) 20:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• End ban I believe Peter Damian has much to offer. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• End ban per Misplaced Pages:Standard offer. Begoon  21:05, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Agree with Carrite and not with Monty. I see that final sentence as saying basically "Nobody's left who asked for the ban", i.e. "I won't be able to resume old conflicts" (it's hard to fight with an inactive user!) and "there's no point in notifying them, so the whole discussion will depend on people who are uninvolved". I would be opposed to an unban request from someone who attempted to seek real-life harm against another user (for example, Ecoleetage), or from someone who has a history of advanced vandalism (for example, Robdurbar), but when you're banned after a series of personal conflicts, we should acquiesce to what's basically a request to start over. Moreover, you've demonstrated that you're interested in contributing encyclopedic content: it's radically different from when we get an unban request from someone who wasn't particularly active in starting and/or improving articles, because we can expect that you'll help us in writing the encyclopedia. Nyttend (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting ban. Admittedly, I don't see item 2 of the Standard offer met, but the circumstances involved here have been discussed at length, um, elsewhere, shall we say, and from what I can tell of the discussion there, if it is accurate, this editor's personal behavior may not be worse than some of the others involved in that matter, and may have, in a sense, been more in keeping with current policies and guidelines regarding content anyway. I advise that the content related to the ban is now under discretionary sanctions, and that it might be very much a bad idea to unilaterally play hero on that content right now, but I think that there are enough other editors who are aware of the occasional POV pushing on that topic to maybe keep the content up to level. One could always, however, go to the FTN, where I think Peter might even fairly regularly see some people he knows already. ;) John Carter (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• I think we should lift Peter's ban and welcome him back. He obviously cares about the project, and has done a lot of good even while banned (for instance, by doing a lot of heavy lifting in the Wifione case). Frankly, I think Peter's concerns about FT2 (which led to his ban) have proven to be borne out. I think Peter has a lot to offer and I can't think of any good reason why he should remain banned at this point. MastCell  21:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Sure Blocks are cheap. Arkon (talk) 21:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
  • A little part of me dies everytime someone repeats that nostrum. Blocks aren't cheap. MastCell  21:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Hahaha, it hurt me too. Can't believe there are any little parts of you left. Arkon (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
      • Touché. MastCell  22:10, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
        • Arkon, you have made light of a holy thing. Please be more respectful in your remarks. The Traveling Boris (talk) 22:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Three years is a long time to be dormant. It sounds like time has been served. My comment is that when an editor returns like this, they have dozens of eyes on them. Should he fall into battleground behavior, it's an uncontroversial reblock so the potential benefits outweight the potential costs, I think. Liz 21:33, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting the ban.--MONGO 21:36, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support: lifting of this ban. Time served, agreed. Please give this editor a new chance. Fylbecatulous talk 21:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Revoke ban. The origin of the ban was a conflict between PD and... FT2 (I wrote "a then arbitrator" at first, but I see MastCell has already named him, so what the hell), who was forced to leave the committee in disgrace in early 2009. There was a lot of bad blood between them. In my opinion Peter was far less at fault than FT2, but he (Peter) is a hot-blooded fellow who lost his temper repeatedly after suffering much provocation and dishonest dealing. If anybody doubts that version of events, I can give details and diffs, but after all this time it's perhaps not necessary to revive the old scandal. Peter should have been unbanned long ago. Bishonen | talk 21:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC).
• Support: lifting of this ban, pr all of the above. This is *way* overdue. (PS, I´m not an admin, but I hope I can have may say, still?) Huldra (talk) 22:01, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Reluctant support but with absolutely zero tolerance for any misbehavior whatsoever. As said above, blocks aren't cheap, it frequently takes a lot of energy to get someone re-blocked once a block is lifted. I don't want that in this case. BMK (talk) 22:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting the ban. I was inactive for a long time and sat out all of this drama. Looking back at some of the relevant discussions with the benefit of hindsight makes this look far overdue. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support per MastCell and Bishonen. Andreas JN466 22:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Lift ban per WP:OFFER; a lot of water has flowed under that bridge. Welcome back. Miniapolis 22:23, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting - and from looking into the background to this, I have to suggest that the original ban was questionable to say the least. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting the ban. I'd be delighted to welcome Peter back. Sarah (SV) 22:30, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Absolutely not. Honestly, the very concept of Peter Damian returning makes me feel ill. Just to make sure we're talking about the same user: this is the person who claims to be writing a book length- and format "expose" on Misplaced Pages that discusses specific editors (COI declaration: I'm one of them) by real-world name? That Peter Damian? Ironholds (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

If he can hold himself to your standards of behaviour, I'll join you in opposition. Other than that, shut up, really. You're discredited everywhere that matters. Everyone knows, you know. Begoon  22:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

That I was an asshole as a teenager? Absolutely. But, as you've just so nicely demonstrated, the way it's understood is an inaccurate one. Ironholds (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

How old were you when you made the comments about setting an editor alight with oil? Genuine question. Begoon  23:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support The comments I have seen from PD regarding Misplaced Pages have been constructive and insightful. As noted by others a lot of water has been passed under the bridge since then. He should be allowed to contribute here. The Traveling Boris (talk) 22:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support lifting. Long overdue. Free speech, Oliver. That he is writing a critique of Scientology this cult is not grounds for banning him. It's grounds for applause. Get it straight. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:42, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

  "But free speech!" == "Literally the nicest thing I can say about this is that it's not actually against the law". Yes, I'm free to refute anything he or anyone else says - if I am totally ignorant of the streisand effect. Yes, I'm free to sue him - if I'm totally ignorant of the streisand effect, have far more disposable income than I actually have, don't plan to get anything done for at least six months, and enjoy what WO does when one pokes the bear. That he is writing a critique of Misplaced Pages is not grounds for banning him; that he is so incredibly apathetic to the idea of what happens to actual, living people is. Tell you what; when you've had a stream of death threats from people, mounds upon mounds of hideous, defamatory commentary, and basically had to live under a rock for a year, then you can come to me and tell me that you have the slightest idea what is actually practical in that situation, and how you're incredibly comfortable letting a member of the same weird clique as the issuers of said defamatory commentary and death threats hang out in your home space. Until then, I'd suggest you put just the slightest amount of energy into empathy and understanding that people may have legitimate safety concerns with rewarding people who egg on and support an environment that contains those kinds of people. Ironholds (talk) 22:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Before he posted his reply I redacted the part of my original comment that said "sue him if he lies" for the reasons Oliver lays out above. It was a stupid, thoughtless comment. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Apparently it wasn't a "stream of death threats" but a death threat, from someone Oliver won't name but who is apparently "associated with" Peter ... or, at least, someone claiming to be someone associated with Peter. I presume that's meant to mean someone from Wikipediocracy. I've asked Oliver to name the sender so the moderators can ban them from Wikipediocracy, but he won't. Oliver didn't report this to the police. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Or to put it another way: you have very deliberately selectively quoted and interpreted what I actually said, in order to reduce the impact of it as much as possible. Do you genuinely wonder why I didn't trust you enough to handle the situation reasonably to give you the details? Or is this just some sick game to you? Ironholds (talk) 01:56, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I apologise for having misrepresented you. If you'll show me where I've done that, I will definitely correct the record. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Can you clarify why you find PD using your 'real-world name' problematic when it features prominently on your user page? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:52, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

He'll probably clarify that at the same time that he justifies suggesting use of a pen to punch a... Oh never mind, it's pointless. Begoon  22:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

You want me to clarify what the difference is between my real-world name being associated with my userpage, and my real-world name being the title of a chapter of a book explicitly designed to crap all over whatever the chapter covers? Really? Ironholds (talk) 22:53, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support. This should be an easy decision. I look forward to his upcoming contributions. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I admit to not being familiar with the specifics of what @Ironholds: is noting, and mean no offense in my support of the proposal. More information? A statement from PD?JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC) I've read enough now to be continue with my strong support. No offense to those who oppose. JoeSperrazza (talk) 23:47, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

On his talk page, Oliver explains that it was someone else that sent him a death threat. I've asked for clarification. Presently, it seems like a rather extreme attempt to keep someone out who has had the temerity to criticise him. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

If I had a problem with being criticised I wouldn't work for the Foundation. Ironholds (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for a mixture of reasons I can and can't talk about. I really don't see much value to many of the exposés published on WO and he hasn't shown that he has the ability to stay civil when he disagrees with others. The book that he likes to parade around is worrying; why should we let someone back into the community who is planning on breaking our mores is a very public way? --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 22:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Fuck no. This is a person obsessed with Misplaced Pages, obsessed with outing Wikipedians, and who has been actually banned by the UK WMF chapter from attending events, and who openly admits ban evasion. Why would this be a good idea? Guy (Help!) 23:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Fuck yeah. But I can't, because I already voted. So indent'n'all. You're often right Guy, and I've often agreed with you. You're wrong today. Begoon  23:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• The UK WMF retracted that ban and apologized. I also find it hilarious that anyone here who spends as many hours editing Misplaced Pages as some of the editors here would call Mr. Damian's interest in WP "obsessive." Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Cla68 (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Elsewhere, Peter has posted this

  I would be very grateful if someone could point out that the ban was revoked, and apology was made, and the notice on the mailing list taken down by the WMF. ...
  "All, there's been a bit more discussion on Peter Damian in a thread above. I really want to make this clear, however, to everyone, so I'm starting a new section: Peter Damian is not banned from any Wikimedia UK events. We were, in late 2011, worried about his attending an event at the British Library, and we reacted to that by banning him from attending it. This evolved into a 'general ban from events'. However, it was pointed out to us that this ban was perhaps an overreaction, and indeed after having met with Peter in person over a cup of tea, we are quite happy that he is not a 'threat to security'. As a result, we rethought the ban - it was, shall we say, a decision made in haste. We retracted it, and issued an apology for the phrasing. I'm happy to repeat that: Peter is not a threat to our member's security." Quoting Richard Symonds (WMUK)

He says you know this, Guy. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

He'd be wrong about that. I know his real-world identity, I know the reports of outing and the reasons why people I know and respect refused to go to any meeting where he was present, but I have never been to a WMFUK meeting or met, to the best of my knowledge, any of those involved, in person. Cla68 also misses the point about obsessive interest. I'm not banned. If I was, I like to think I'd leave the project alone completely for at least a year before even thinking of appealing. As I understand it, PD was banned for cause and still continued to turn up at meetings and such. That's not healthy. However, I am prepared to extend the benefit of the doubt IFF PD will give an unequivocal and binding undertaking to abide by the "friendly space" policy, and if the past accusations of sockpuppetry can be shown to be false. My biggest concern is the outing, whether or not it comes under the guise of "citizen journalism" (a label that is open to egregious abuse since it exists outside of the framework of editorial oversight and press regulation). I do welcome Cla68's new tolerance of offsite outing, and I trust that he will now be petitioning ArbCom to remove the ban on Philip Sandifer. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Pot/kettle again Guy. Have you ever dropped my real name in a public, online conversation off-wiki? Of course, I already know the answer. Cla68 (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Request more evidence: I would like to see the case where Mr. Damian was banned, and a list of accusers who Mr. Damian said have been banned, left, and were sock puppets, his defense then, and his defense now as to why the original decision was in error. They should all be notified of the request by Mr. Damian to lift the ban and allowed to express their side of the story--whatever that was. We need to hear from the accusers for this to be a fair plea IMHO. (I put same on Jimbo's page). David Tornheim (talk) 23:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I have to say that I am a bit troubled with the rush to judgment without following the reasonable procedures I requested above. What if the person making the plea is not being completely honest about what happened? After all, Mr. Damian openly admitted to defying the rules. David Tornheim (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

What "rush to judgment"? Who's making a judgement, anywhere, yet? You do talk some crap, Tornheim. I believe that's been noted elsewhere. Begoon  23:35, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Please strike the ad hominem and uncivil behavior. There is clearly rush to judgment that he is innocent without looking at the evidence. Look at the time frame between the request and all the votes. Where is the evidence? Where are the voices of those who asked that he be banned? David Tornheim (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Um, actually, David, if you were to read the comments of others here, you would see that this is something that many other editors already know something about. It would be extremely irrational for you to continue to assert that editors like Bishonen, who was very active and highly regarded at the time too, have not looked at the evidence, or, for that matter, known the evidence for some time. What you seem to be requesting is that other editors go out of their way to make it easier for you to not have to look for the evidence, which is another matter entirely. I can also say that many of the other people who have expressed opinions have probably already seen the evidence I have seen elsewhere, and are acting on having reviewed that evidence. While I can understand how it would clearly be a rush to judgment for you to make any sort of decision, this issue is, in a sense, almost the equivalent of the JFK assassination was in the US in the 1970s and 1980s. Virtually everyone who was there at the time remembers fairly clearly what happened, and, if you read the comments of others, like I said, you will see that many have in fact been aware of the evidence before expressing opinions. John Carter (talk) 00:18, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

That may all be true. But I doubt you would be happy if the Warren Commission's report was this and only this: "There was one shooter. We're sure of it. Case closed. We have no documents to share. Please trust us. We know what we are talking about and the evidence we looked at. You can go write your own book and investigate the evidence yourself if you think we are wrong. Have fun." I will note that I see only one voice that part of the original decision: Ironholds. Are the rest the users truly gone, or is this something that was just made up? We will soon find out.David Tornheim (talk) 00:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

David, in all honesty, the only person who seems to be unaware of the situation who has been involved to date is you, and the only person who seems to be arguing against "trusting" those who do know the situation is, again, you. And, yes, having looked at some of the names you pinged below, I see several who have been banned for years who are clearly gone, and others who retired, etc. etc. etc. If I might suggest something, rather than continuing to post here, maybe you look at the history of the incidents involved? John Carter (talk) 00:42, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Seems to me the person seeking relief should provide the evidence and do the notification as is required in law. Here apparently it is the judge who has to do the research. Bizarre. It seems to me you are suggesting that WP:INVOLVED parties are preferred over neutral 3rd parties like myself: I have no idea who this guy is or why he was banned. In law, judges and jury are supposed to be neutral and have no COI, not even to do independent research, and are only look at the material presented to them. Here it is more like anything goes and any kind of sophistry is permissible, and in this case it seems only those who have made up their mind in advance are welcomed and someone like me is ridiculed for asking reasonable questions. And you wonder why new editors don't trust the Wiki-court system? David Tornheim (talk) 01:13, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support lifting ban. I'm sure that folks will keep him on a short leash with regard to incivility, and we really could use some expertise on medieval philosophy articles. I hope that he can keep his temper in check and focus on improving Misplaced Pages rather than on settling scores and griping about the place's deficiencies. Deor (talk) 23:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Well, I would question whether this is a good idea. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

1. It's my experience that Damien either hates the Misplaced Pages and everything it stands for, or at the very least hates it in his present form (he might be in favor of it it was run as a for-profit business with a small paid staff of editors, like Britannica, or something (not sure what exactly he would like to see, or if he himself knows).)
2. Given that, it's not clear to me why he would want to be here, except to either abet demoralization of the body of editors on some deep level, to gather material for his business (which is, in part, writing books and articles denigrating the Misplaced Pages), to valorize his personal hobbyhorses, or some other nefarious purpose.
3. And so because of the above points, a number of editors find interacting with this person painful and unpleasant, and I'm one of them. There are editors here who love the Misplaced Pages and want to build it up, and dealing with people who hate it want to tear it down as colleagues is asking an awful lot. Do we want to ask that of our volunteers.

I do agree that we ought to run ourselves more like a business. There are some people that you simply can't have on your staff, for whatever reason, and one thing that successful and functional businesses do is recognize when you have this and act decisively. I am confident of one thing for sure: no one should be under the illusion that this sort of person would appreciate the gesture, or can, really. They just see it as a sign of weakness and so another reason to despise us. Herostratus (talk) 23:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

You raise some good points, and, to an extent, I think I even implicitly agreed with one of them. That being that he hasn't specifically said what he would do. Having said that, I think it rather obvious that his interests might well be in the field of philosophy, an area we are I think particularly bad at, and issues related to philosophy, including various forms of pseudoscience and dubious beliefs. Having myself indicated I would like to see an indication of what it is he would edit here, I am going to assume that it might be the area of philosophy where we need a lot of help. However, as others have said, I think every here knows, including Peter, that he will be likely on a short leash for some time, and can expect to be sanctioned again should conduct require it. And, honestly, one of the best ways to get critics to maybe soften their criticism is by letting them know just how difficult what is being done is. If we want to make "the book", when it gets published, more sympathetic, one of the best ways would be to make it easier for its author to realize how sometimes difficult and taxing trying to keep this thing together and in decent shape can be again. Who knows, he might even become, in a sense, more of a supporter of the editors involved, if not necessarily the system which I think about half of us have admitted at some time or another needs work. John Carter (talk) 00:09, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

"There are some people that you simply can't have on your staff, for whatever reason," Yes, I once employed one. 8-(

I don't see Peter Damian in this category though, even though he has been regularly presented as such, and he associates via Wikipediocracy with some who I certainly see as fitting that description - including WP admins. We shouldn't be fooled though by the bad press misrepresentation that some axe-grinders have tarred him with. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Editors are not site-banned for light or transient causes. This person clearly did something very wrong to earn this ban, and they give no indication how they would avoid the conduct that caused the ban in the first place. Indeed, the statement that, "Most of the signatories of the ban are now either banned themselves, or have left, or were sockpuppet accounts created specifically to support the ban" seems to suggest that they don't feel that the original ban was justified. If they don't believe that the original ban was justified, then it may be very likely that they will return to the same problematic behavior as before. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, extend the standard offer. This means no socking, no pursuing old grievances, no nonsense. If he's seriously turned a new leaf, let's let bygones be bygones. Jonathunder (talk) 00:05, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Strong support for revoking the ban, per Bishonen, MastCell, Carrite, ATG, Begoon—i.e. not just because the thought of PD returning makes Ironholds feel ill. Writegeist (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, be nice, we need to look out for our sickly children. Begoon  00:21, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Notification: @Ryan Postlethwaite:, @IMatthew:, @Chillum:, @Toddst1:, @Ironholds:, @Brothejr:, @Madman:, @Tenant23:, @Who then was a gentleman?:, @Nja247:, @Baseball Bugs:, @Mikaey:, @Ottava Rima:, @Roux:, @Mazca:, @Javert:, @Bullzeye:, @JamieS93:, @Jennavecia:, @Rodhullandemu:, @Tznkai:, @Will Beback:, @IMatthew:, @Pastor Theo:, @Snow:, @Mythdon:, @Tznkai:, @Ottava Rima:, @Until It Sleeps:, @Jeni: According to the above account, "Most of the signatories of the ban are now either banned themselves, or have left, or were sockpuppet accounts created specifically to support the ban..." Is that true? David Tornheim (talk) 00:37, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Running through the list there are indeed a number of "retired" banners, others who haven't edited for years, a banned user or two, and at least one blocked sock. If you count those who have edited less than half a dozen times this year (probably to keep tools) as those having "left," the assertion certainly seems correct. Obviously there are others who are still around and active. The phrasing is a bit melodramatic and it does not appear that any socks created to persecute PD were engaged in the ban debate. Carrite (talk) 08:06, 16 April 2015 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 08:12, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. You are free to use me as an example of what may be possible when Misplaced Pages's bans and blocks are all... just... stopped. jps (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support — but with a codicil. Peter Damian is an asset that Misplaced Pages sorely needs. I fear you may unban, unblock, restore his ability to contribute here, and then, at the first conflict or disagreement, if he figuratively raises his voice, slam him down with the strictest possible penalty. Allow me to point out why this would be a grievous error. The man who stands behinds the account is a scholar (Misplaced Pages needs more of those), an expert and a published author in difficult subjects (Misplaced Pages needs more of those), accomplished in his use of the English language (Oh my does Misplaced Pages need more of those), and most unsettling to some of you, he is a man of principle. He cannot watch something unethical or underhanded being done without taking a stand and standing against it. He's upbraided me severely in private for some things I've been soft on at that 'other site,' and shown me his mettle. He will be honest with you. If you can take that (as you do make astonishing allowances for some established contributors), then let him resume his place here. If you can't take the sometime protestations of an honest man, then don't.→StaniStani 01:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Meh, sure PD has a lot to offer Misplaced Pages, but I'm not sure how well he'll get along with the current management here in the asylum. Certainly worth a try, but even if he finds things too constrictive here hopefully he'll continue to contribute at that mysterious other place. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 01:20, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support. This has actually bothered me for a while. He's an expert and the encyclopedia will be better with his participation than without. Keep our readers first: all else is secondary. Antandrus (talk) 01:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support - since we put up with other folks who have subject matter expertise who also occasoinally boil over, I can't see why not. As I recall, he bascially got banned because he dared to question one of the arbs .. who later turned out to deserve questioning. And the Wifione stuff was well done. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:06, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support, with the caveat that editors who seek to provoke Damien or renew old conflicts with him should treated no less strictly than he is. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 02:38, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support unban - clear net positive to the project Ritchie333 02:53, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support unban - Alot of behaviour while banned has been driven by anger from someone who has the goal of a quality 'pedia at heart. Reconciliation better than more angst. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:01, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Chaotic Neutral: Peter Damien is entirely capable of producing above-average editorial work on this project; I don't think there's a lot of doubt about this. And some of the back story (going all the way back to November 2007) that led to his ban has been found, in retrospect, to be highly suspect. (In fact, it was suspect pretty much as soon as some of it happened, and ultimately led to the "resignation" of an arbitrator and the reprimanding of an oversighter.) Having said that, Peter was unblocked once before under the tutelage of one of the most respected Wikipedians of the time (Thatcher), and was unable to keep to the straight and narrow or anywhere close to it, which led in time to the longterm ban under which he currently finds himself. Along the way, he's authored defamatory blogs/web postings, made legal threats serious enough that they were part of the instigation for the Legal Fees Assistance Program, and published many comments off-site that indicate that he views Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians through a distorted lens (I'm being polite here). If Peter Damien could stick to what he's really good at (which is content - his initial block for an extreme personal attack was bang on and if he did it today would still result in an immediate indefinite block), and if the community can support him on staying focused (both by redirecting him when he seems to be going off on tangents, and by creating a buffer zone if someone attempts to provoke), then there's the chance of a detente here that will benefit the project. I wouldn't stand in the way of an unblock, but I wouldn't be a good person to help out in facilitating a return to the project, based on his reaction the only time we met (and I didn't even know who he was at the time). Risker (talk) 03:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comments and concerns I'm really torn on this one. On the one hand, I believe in the standard offer, and a great number of experienced editors above have spoken up in support of Peter and his potential value as a contributor, some even going further to provide perspectives on the incidences that led to his siteban that suggest that he received a disproportionate amount of blame for said conflicts. On the other, I find the tone and content of his request leave me extremely underwhelmed, and indeed concerned about where this users priorities lay. As others have noted, there's little-to-nothing in his comments to suggest that he recognizes where his former approach was problematic, nor much in the way of assurances that he can keep his approach within community standards now. Indeed, he says very little about the circumstances of his ban other than comments which vaguely dismiss those who participated on the discussion that led to his ban. That attitude is disconcerting even before you put it together with the fact that even some of those who support the lifting of the ban describe him as a hothead and the fact that he continued to edit for three years after his ban, until caught.

Of even more concern are the implications raised about the user's ambivalence to the project broadly by some of what I'm hearing here -- that the user has been banned from certain WMF events for general disruptiveness, that they have shown a willingness to out other users and draw them into off-site drama (surely something we should not be taking lightly), and the fact that he is writing a book detailing his views on the "dysfunction" of Misplaced Pages all seem to suggest a user whose priorities may be less based in the desire to build the encyclopedia than they are based in a fixation on the social and organizational aspects of the project and their own tumultuous history within it. One of the few things PD does say for himself by way of arguing for his value to the project is that he's spent time during his ban writing articles for Wikipediocracy, and he seems to take pride in the fact that some of them have attracted media attention. But the mere fact that a person has a lot to say about the inner workings of Misplaced Pages doesn't mean they truly understand the same, or that they are capable of collaborating in a productive manner here, especially if there has been evidence to the contrary. And if the sum total of the evidence he can supply for his understanding of Misplaced Pages behavioural policy is that he has contributed to the (often tortured and misrepresentative) media interpretation of the project, I'm not altogether impressed. This user has had six years with which to consider the wording of their request here, during which time they have clearly spent a great deal of time thinking about Misplaced Pages. That all they came up with in all that time is the above leaves me wondering just how well they understand what our current policies will require of them.

Look, it's clear from the !votes so far that it's all but a foregone conclusion that the user will be welcomed back into the fold, and I really hope that he'll be the asset his supporters here seem believe he will be. But it would sit better with this one editor if we had a more detailed discussion of what went wrong before and more assurances from Peter that he's learned from past mistakes (whether he was the most problematic party in the previous conflicts or not). I'm also concerned by some of the "and furthermore, any scrutiny of his actions above and beyond the normal should be discouraged" type of comments above. We're talking about a user who has asked us to overturn a siteban, despite the fact that he ignored said ban for years and has taken his conflicts here outside the site. He should be prepared for a great deal of scrutiny as he returns here -- should even welcome it if his request and desire to return to the community are above-board. Snow 04:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. If you all haven't noticed, WP is failing. It's shedding editors like insects from a sheep dipped in a flea bath. We need editors, especially incredibly educated and smart ones like Mr. Damian on the project to try to turn this thing around before the cold, dark ocean closes over our heads and all our hard work disappears into the murky depths of ocean Internet. Cla68 (talk) 05:44, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support Noting, as Ealdgyth and Mastcell did, the very helpful work he did on the Wifione case, the fact that he has expertise we need, and my belief if (and that is an if, not a foregone conclusion) there are problems we can handle them. And I prefer hot-blooded to cold-blooded (referring to Bishonen's comment). Dougweller (talk) 06:08, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support --MichaelMaggs (talk) 06:46, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support. And the guy deserves a big, big apology from all of us for ever being banned at all. What a sad, sorry affair. Everyking (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose based on my personal experience of being a target, my experience as a trustee of WMUK in 2013, and the reasons why at that time the UK chapter events ban was withdrawn by the board. For those that are unaware, trustees may make decisions as a board to protect the interests of the charity, this includes avoiding pointless expense in the face of legal threats. WMUK's concern at the time was the number of Wikimedians attending events in the UK who were realistically worried at being publicly derided or outed by someone with "Peter Damian's" track record of "citizen journalism". I have met "Peter" in real life and feel he makes perfectly good points about things that are plain wrong about the Wikimedia community and the surrounding politics, I include his valid complaint about WMUK fundraising banners which were then withdrawn; lesson learned. However I feel the community should only un-ban in the light of a long problematic track record, when there has been a firm commitment to an equivalent of the wmf:Friendly space policy both for on-wiki and off-wiki behaviour whenever it pertains to Wikimedia. If "Peter" or others with similar citizen journalism hobbies could avoid aggressive/malicious hounding of any Wikimedian who dares to have an opinion, and instead focus on evidence based investigative journalism for the institution, projects or individual figures in central political roles, such as WMF board of trustees (i.e. not their sex lives or gossip about their children), that would be super. When that is seen to be happening I'll change my !vote. --Fæ (talk) 08:29, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment If (and it seems inevitable now) Peter Damian gets unblocked, will he have broken the record for longest overturned site ban? Bosstopher (talk) 08:58, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Damian Can editors at least try to get his name right? Although this connection has been exploited in the past to portray him as The Antichrist, that isn't helpful here. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Carrite, Nyttend et al. said it best, and I haven't been convinced by any of the opposes (a couple actually made me laugh at their audacity). Black Kite (talk) 09:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support unban. It can always be reinstated if the user causes difficulties onwiki. --Dweller (talk) 09:42, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Maintain ban Given the unrepentant unban request, book and WMUK stuff, I don't see how unbanning this editor could possibly end well. I thought that we'd moved on from the era where productive but chronically disruptive editors were tolerated, and I really have no desire to go back there again. Nick-D (talk) 11:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

What WMUK stuff? Surely you don't mean the event ban they imposed, then realised they'd made (yet another) serious mistake and apologised? Why would you still hold that against someone, when even WMUK would no longer do so? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:06, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know this editor personally, so I've reviewed some of the content he's written. We need him back.—S Marshall T/C 12:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment At present I have no opinion on the ban, which I read about on Jimbo's talk page. I request that a link to the original banning be placed at the top of this section, so that people can, uh, read about it before making up their minds. Coretheapple (talk) 12:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• conditional support I'd like a topic ban from anything other than content editing and talk pages related to that content. That includes a ban from the drama boards. Revisit in 6 months. I honestly don't see this ending well, as I worry he's only here to stir up trouble. Hobit (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support Johnbod (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• (EC) Support - Valuable contributor, and generally a decent fellow. Reaper Eternal (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Please unblock User:Morgan Katarn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, admins. I have a serious request. I know that it is more than 3 years over but my desire is still to unblock my old User:Morgan Katarn. I feel sorry for my sockpuppet actions but this account has to be unblocked. I talked to the Bureaucrats and they said that they will make a Courtesy Vanishing on my old User:Morgan Katarn if this account is unblocked. And I would appreciate that if you accept my desire. Unblock this account and then I will let the Bureaucrats do a Courtesy Vanishing and after that, I will leave the Misplaced Pages completely and I will never make a stupid action again. I will leave the Misplaced Pages. So this user has to be unblocked. Thanks! 91.113.38.214 (talk) 21:15, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

So, here you are, evading a block by editing as an IP, to ask of favor of the community. Well, I oppose it. BMK (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

See this. BMK (talk) 22:01, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

If you intend to leave Misplaced Pages, there is no readon to unblock you. Just walk away. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 22:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the auld account was under his real name, hence the desirability of courtesy vanishing. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:22, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Unlikely, I'd think. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Are IPs banned from editing. _Fortuna 22:55, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

A ban applies to the person, not the internet protocol... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Which Bureaucrats have told you this? --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

The request came through the mailing list and the user was told that they are not eligible for a courtesy vanishing as they are currently blocked. This isn't an uncommon situation and I'm not sure why it matters which bureaucrat made the statement. Worm(talk) 10:55, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm happy to explain to you why I asked, if you ask, but thanks for information. --Dweller (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Look, this is a serious request. The bureaucrats told me on the email that they will do a courtesy vanishing at once but this account needs to be unblocked. It is almost 4 years ago when I got blocked with this account. I fell very sorry of what I've done with that account. Can you please unblock this account? Please don't be so stubborn at all and aggree. This is a very serious request. Please do so and then you can block this user again after the courtesy vanishing ok? But then block this account not for vandalism, just because of the reason that I decided to leave the Misplaced Pages. 194.118.255.163 (talk) 18:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I think there is just a lot of confusion about your request. You are requesting an unblock of an account, even though you say you are planning to leave Misplaced Pages. And with the link Andy provided, we now know that this isn't your real name but that of a Star Wars character. So what is the purpose of unblocking an account if you aren't planning on using it? Liz 20:22, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Strange as it may sound, there are plenty of people who (weirdly) named their kids after StarWars characters. What I'd suggest to the user is that he make the request at Meta for a global renaming of his account. He can go to Special:GlobalRenameRequest on any wiki. Hypothetically, he would have to make a link to his old account on the newly named page (e.g., writing on the talk page "I used to be user:Morgan Katarn") but this is not particularly enforceable. He can ask for a new username like "Renamed user 223343242" if he wants. Risker (talk) 20:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Risker: This account is tagged as a sock of Furko Nellis, which is also a Star Wars character. I can't see any good faith reason for this account to be requesting an unblock/courtesy vanishing, but I'm fairly jaded. --Jezebel's Ponyo 20:51, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

My suggestion is, essentially, to skip the unblocking, recognize there's no such thing as a courtesy vanishing, and get the account renamed if he wants to get it renamed. There are no reported socks for several years, and those accounts would have been blocked for vandalism whether or not they were socks. Some people do mature over time and recognize they've messed up. Incidentally, the bureaucrats should have explained all of this to the user when he emailed them. We should as a community completely remove any reference to the 'crats from the 'rename/vanish' cycle since they no longer have any authority to do renaming; that some individual 'crats are either stewards or global renamers has nothing to do with their enwiki permissions. Risker (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Why don't we hear from the OP what the purpose behind the request is? Courtesy vanishings shoulnd;t be handed out like candy, they're a courtesy from the community, and should generally be granted only to users who were in good standing. If a user who is not in good standing wants one, there should be a good reason behind it.Perhaps the beaureaucrat in question can vouch for the OP's reason, without saying what it is, perhaps that would be sufficient, but without something to base it on, I see no reason to extend a courtesy here. BMK (talk) 20:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, I tell you the reason why I want to have courtesy vanishing for my User:Morgan Katarn. The reason is because Morgan Katarn is the name of a Star Wars character and I feel totally unconfortable that this user exists under that name and also the contributions of this account are very unconfortable because I made contributions about cities here in Austria where I live and I do not wish that people around the world can see these contributions in a very quick way. So the main reason why I request a courtesy vanishing is because first of all the name change and another reason is that the contributions of this user should be harder to find. It is awful enough that the contributions of each user exist for the rest of my whole life on the Misplaced Pages. So hopefully you understand my reason. Please don't ask further more. I'd very appreciate that if you would cooperate and do a courtesy vanishing on this user. Thanks! 194.118.255.163 (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Surely this discussion is back to front. If there is a good reason for the rule that courtesy-vanishing is only for users in good standing, and we want to follow the rule, then the request should be refused. If we are prepared to waive the rule, then just vanish him and be done with it. Unblocking one of his half-dozen accounts will not magically return him to good standing, and unblock-vanish-reblock is just process for the sake of it.

OP, what about your first account, Furko Nellis, and all the others listed in the SPI? JohnCD (talk) 21:15, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

The reason is because Morgan Katarn is the name of a Star Wars character and I feel totally unconfortable that this user exists under that name and also the contributions of this account are very unconfortable, this is the part I don't get and it looks like you won't be returning to explain. Why do you care about clearing the "good name" of a fictional character? I completely understand if it were your name but I don't see how anyone in Austria could associate you, the person, with these sock accounts. Liz 21:55, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Our social policies are not a suicide pact. If it looks like a troll and sounds like a troll, perhaps it is a troll. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

This person's reasons for wanting a courtesy vanishing are ludicrous. Someone please close this thread. BMK (talk) 23:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

2015-04-16 vandalism by 75.146.221.233

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please see Special:Contributions/75.146.221.233. This IP editor has started running amok today. It is beyond four edits, albeit to just two articles. Peaceray (talk) 15:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban violation

Nadirali has violated his topic ban on numerous occasions.

• In this edit, he changed the title of a section from "Ethnicity and language" to "Nationalities/Ethnicities and languages", and right below that section, the article reads "..Indians in the United Arab Emirates|Pakistanis in the United Arab Emirates|Expatriates in the United Arab Emirates". He also spaced between "],]" which is probably a minor edit, still he touched. Editing the section title was clearly a major edit because section titles changes the basic meaning or even conclusion of the part that is written below. Most of that section concerns the backgrounds of the people coming from India and Pakistan.
• He made a page move, where we can read a major section about India.
• He added a new section to Astrology, where we can find major sections about India.
• This edit was major, the article mentions India about 8 times and mentions Pakistan about 7 times.
• He has also disputed the factual accuracy of this article, that has section about India and he has also participated in the discussions.

There are just more to mention, but I think that these few are enough. I have discussed this issue with both Worm That Turned and Dennis Brown. One had unbanned him, while other had blocked him for a month after he had detected some of his topic ban violation upon returning from the site ban. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Responding to your final point first, since it's the only one I've investigated. Editing and discussing a broad-topic article that merely has a section on the banned subject, without editing that section, without discussing that section, and without editing or discussing the subject elsewhere, is not a ban violation. See the discussion about weather at WP:TBAN; if you're banned from weather, you're banned from editing the weather-related parts of the New York article, but you're allowed to edit the rest. Of course this isn't the case if the whole article is related to the subject, but child sexual abuse is definitely not just a South Asian issue. Nyttend (talk) 21:29, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Ditto on the penultimate bullet: Shia Islam is a topic too broad for a ban from "articles related to India, Pakistan and Afghanistan broadly construed", and Albania definitely isn't included in it. This ban is for the country articles, for people and places originating/located in those countries, and for topics closely related to them, e.g. caste, as well as I/P/A-related components of other articles. Nyttend (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Astrology and public alcohol consumption are worldwide topics. A pagemove isn't relevant to the ban unless the entire page is affected, and neither this content nor its source is at all related to I/P/A. Nyttend (talk) 21:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that it is a violation only if he has edited about those countries and not the articles? Still, at least 2 of the diffs are topic ban violation. Per topic ban, he cannot contribute to these articles because these articles goes on to explain some of the important aspects of those subjects that are related with his topic ban. He made an edit on Liger and the source has mentioned "India" at least 5 times as well as its other locations. Not only once, but at least 2 times he had been told not to contribute on those articles that have significantly covered these 3 nations. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 00:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

War edit

User removes the template in The Voice of Peace (marathon). --User:Green Zero — Preceding undated comment added 21:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Your reason for asking for deletion wasn't one of our criteria for speedy deletion (like the uk:Вікіпедія:Критерії швидкого вилучення page), and please don't edit-war to ask again. If you want me to help you have it deleted, I can help you use the articles for deletion process, like uk:Вікіпедія:Статті-кандидати на вилучення. Nyttend (talk) 21:38, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I fixed the template for what it appeared they were aiming for, feel free to throw it off if you dont feel it meets it. I left a note at the original authors talkpage so they hopefully dont remove the tags from their own pages in future. Amortias (T)(C) 21:44, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Deletion

The article Anti-Pakistan Sentiment had been proposed for deletion and nobody has been contested it, so somebody please delete it Ankush 89 (talk) 09:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ankush 89:, where is discussion going on? I deleted "deletion tag" from article. Article is already well sourced, we can improve it further. Kindly mention or ping me if you want to say something. Thank you. --Human3015 15:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Title itself is incorrect. Hajme 17:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for Interaction Ban between OccultZone and Zhanzhao

I'm raising this at the suggestion of @Yunshui:

OccultZone and I as well as a few other editors were previously involved in a content dispute on the Rape in India article. My brother's barely-active account, DanS76 chimed in twice, and was identified as a sock of mine. An SPI was raised, during which we admitted our relationship, after which DanS76 retired his account to prevent any such issues in the future. I have also tried to keep away from the article since I saw how aggressive OccultZone could be. The problem is that OccultZone has it in his mind that I was still active there, and as a result, he was:

• blocked twice for edit-warring against people he thought was me,
• raising 2 new (failed) SPIs against those same people in an attempt to link them to me as well as an ANI,
• accusing other admins (some of them are mentioned below) of incompetency when they did not rule to his liking, and got told off for that,
• threatening to action against them in ArbCom (other admins have weighed in to say their sanctions against him were justified),
• admin shopping both on-and-off-wiki without success with his list of so-called "evidence" against me,
• and still trying to pin something, anything against me even then told repeatedly that his behaviour is bordering on bullying/harassment.

Most of which I documented on my userpage but had hoped not to bring up. He was told repeatedly by many admins to move on after his ANI and 2 SPIs as well as other interaction with the admins i.e. (@DoRD:@Worm That Turned:@Callanecc:@Bgwhite:@Salvidrim!:@Mike V: off the top of my head), and he has found no new evidence against me that he had not previously declared. Some admins even explicitly warned him about his behaviour against me . After he did not get the results he was looking for, he has upped his game from admin shopping to approaching an arbitrator Yunshui directly.

I don't even know what he hopes to achieve now that its been proven that all those other accounts (which were indeed socks but of someone else) were found to be unrelated to me, and my one alleged "sock" DanS76 is already retired. If he had found some new evidence of me allegedly socking, I would at least give him credit. But he's basically just taking the same closed cases and the same evidences, and going around looking for someone to finally agree with him. I've barely interacted with him or talked about him after the last SPI, but OccultZone doesn't seem to want to quit. As such, I would like to request an interaction ban between the both of us. If he finds new evidence of new socking activity that goes beyond the scope of the previous ANI and SPIs he previously raised against me, he's welcome to supercede the interaction ban and raise a new case against me. Else, I would like for him to just leave me alone. Zhanzhao (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support in the strongest possible terms. I'm amazed OccultZone is still on this, I've put of effort into looking into this case over the past few weeks. I can name another half a dozen Admins and checkusers that OccultZone has contacted regarding this. What's more, this is at least the second time that OccultZone has made accusations about Zhanzhao and then complained when Zhanzhao has defended himself. OccultZone needs to drop this and an interaction ban seems like the easiest way to make that happen. Worm(talk) 10:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support Gets my vote. The encyclopedia is not well served by these two editors arguing with one another across multiple venues. (caveat: I was the editor who suggested Zhanzhao pursue an IBAN in the first place, so slightly involved.) Yunshui _水 10:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment So two votes already? Okay I hope that my below comment would clarify that how we should view this case.

In last 12 days, I discovered and found a lot of things in this case that I haven't even seen in long term abusers. How evident it is that this account was created for evading 3rr, after he could not edit war with IP anymore. Control + F, "eight years have passed" and check his IPs edits , and then he created the account and continued the edit war, , this sort of scenario has been a major factor in his small contribution history. Yes he admitted this IP in question to be his after few months, after he had reverted with it and the page was protected.

It is easy to accept that Zhanhao has abused multiple accounts policy since he joined en.wiki years, he was blocked once for evading his block with IP as well. He explicitly states to have read the the WP:SOCK#LEGIT on an unblock request that was declined. When I made an appropriate attempt to expose his on going abuse of multiple accounts, he insisted that "it was my brother", and a problematic and a non policy based decision took place.

And more recently I also found a few diffs that should overturn all previous decisions. Here he has clearly warned against recruiting any "family members", so even if his unbelievable notion of "my brother" has to be taken seriously, then his abuse of multiple accounts was 100% intended. See no way how we can reject an indef block for a case that was inappropriately closed just a few days ago. Per policy and standards, only indef block is appropriate for 6 years+ violation of WP:ILLEGIT. We cannot support sock puppetry.

Again, abuse is also evident with socking with IPs, and proxies. This range was recently rangeblocked by Mike V. He admits to to have abused this San Francisco range. He has also reported suspected socks, in every sense he has abused the policy.

• Apart from the talk pages and the articles, he has abused his two accounts across many namespaces. That would include multiple AfDs,(, critical RFC/UA () that saw de-sysopping, deletion review,(), topic ban discussion of User:La goutte de pluie., ANI,( , ,, accepting own article for submission..

• It also includes tag team edit warring, for evading 3rr. a)(account signed in after 58 days) b) (this time 45 days after), Zhanzhao and many more, list is just too large.

This account has only 2036 main article edits in 8 years and has saved at least 13 evasions of 3RR that can be confirmed. That means he has saved at least 13 blocks for violating 3rr rule through socking. If en.wiki has banned very productive editors for socking, why we have different rules for this editor?

His tendency is to bother, irritate many productive editors, often by using multiple accounts. Such as Lee788, Ahnan, etc. That is how he has managed, I am his current target.

• Even now, he uselessly reverts my edits and says that it was his brother who did it. I never hound his contribution history. There is no doubt that we need indef block for this WP:NOTHERE case. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 11:18, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes I am sure this was a coincidence. As I said, which you showed on your 2nd link, That was one singular edit, and I have taken steps to prevent my account from being compromised again. Practically all your evidence are either from years ago, used in the previous SPIs/ANIs, and/or you've already shared them with other admins who ended up disagreeing with you. As for using a VPN service, its the nature of my job as I need to look at US websites that might have content blocked by location. I am sure a verification of the CU data will show that when I am logged on to it, it stays the same throughout and doesnt jump around as if I were trying to keep switching my IP. If I was really socking, I can easily abandon this account. Why would I even want to draw attention to my other so-called available accounts and risk them being linked? Your logic fails here. Zhanzhao (talk) 12:00, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

How many hours or days later it came up? You tried to misrepresent yourself only when you saw that you are going to be raided. Actually they just said nothing. Now that you agree with the you have greatly socked, now you tell that you will abandon this account and start a new account as technical details also match? Funny honestly, no wonder why people believe that you are gaming. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 13:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Original report looks like a fallacious attempt to troll and lacks rationality. He reported you on SPI and you gamed some admin. Now you cannot sock because you believe that he is watching you and that's why you want interaction ban? That is just ridiculous. Delibzr (talk) 12:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I even doubted the existence of WP:Deny recognition while I was reading. Delibzr (talk) 12:58, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Totally missed it. Yes he has made only 53 main article edits since the SPI, he wants to resume edit warring with the accounts and IPs like he always did? Yeah that seems better. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 13:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

And I made only about 60 edits btw October to February combined. In fact, the only reason I'm so active nowadays is to deal with your hassling me. Zhanzhao (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment One way or another, this dispute needs to end. It looks like an I-ban is the most likely solution with a prohibition on both users from filing more cases against each other at AE, ANI or SPI. If there are abuses on either side, another editor can file a complaint. Liz 12:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually this is the first anything I filed against OZ, and only on the suggestion of the arbitrator that OZ approached. OZ has filed 2 separate SPIs, one ANI (which the first closing admin re-opened after receiving a mail from OZ, only for it to get closed again by another admin). Zhanzhao (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Which closing admin you are talking about? Have you got any proof about it? Mdann52 is not an admin. I am surprised you didn't notified VictoriaGrayson, Human3015, M Tracy Hunter, etc. who have been affected by your actions. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:58, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose IBAN unless actual evidence of disruption is presented. I'll give the OP this: I appreciate the bullet-points. To address them in order:

1. Looking only at the linked block-log (i.e., all the evidence presented), both blocks were repealed within a few hours without coming to term, apparently for being inappropriate blocks. This is not evidence in favour of OZ, but it certainly isn't evidence against him.
2. What is the definition of a "failed" SPI? One was endorsed for CU because the clerk agreed the activity was suspicious, the other appears to have warranted a CU. The fact that both those CUs turned up negatives is not a reason for an IBAN, since apparently the SPI clerks shared OZ's concerns: are we to IBAN all SPI clerks from interacting with users they had wrongly suspected of sockpuppetry?
3. This point is confusing. Of the three links, only one is a diff, and that not a post by OZ. None of the three pages have the word "incompetent" anywhere on them, so it's difficult to make out the problem. Additionally, if OZ was accusing admins of incompetency, what does that have to do with an IBAN with the OP?
4. He accused a blocking admin (who had apparently, per supra, made a bad block against him) of making other bad blocks and needing to be restrained. If mentioning ArbCom counts as a threat that merits and IBAN ... why not IBAN him from the admin he was talking about, rather than some random user who doesn't like him?
5. The non-transparent off-wiki contact is concerning, but unfortunately an IBAN would not solve this one way or the other, since emails are not as far as I know actionable (as long as OZ was careful and only emailed users who agreed with him). There also seems to be nothing in the diffs to suggest that these emails were about the OP, which seems to be at best a minor AGF-violation on the part of the OP.
6. The last point presents no real evidence and is valid if the OP is in fact a good-faith contributor; if as OZ suggests the OP is in fact a problem editor who should be blocked, then this point is essentially invalid since OZ is right to "pin something, anything against me even then told repeatedly that his behaviour is bordering on bullying/harassment". Which brings me to...

I have no opinion on whether the OP should be indefinitely blocked per WP:NOTHERE. Given the OP's long history of editing articles in a wide variety of areas, it seems a bit inappropriate to accuse him of NOTHERE.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:34, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

*Yes the blocks were overturned, but he warred against what he assumed were my socks, as seen from the SPIs he raised. Also, Bgwhite who overturned the first block, explicitely said that he regretted it, while Worm That Turned said that both blocks were not wrong as well. Other admins have weighed in on it too, if you look at OccultZone's talk page.

*I was actually referring to the results of the CU and behavioral analysis of the SPI clerks before they closed the case against his claims. I in fact welcomed them to do the CU if it would convince OZ he was wrong, which didn't work.

*These admins would also be the ones to tell him to move on, which he refused to.

*Just pointing out that he seems to think everyone is against him when he though he was edit warring with people he though were me, even admins giving him advice.

*I would welcome OZ to declare how many emails he had sent out about his case against me, and to whom. I don't see how there could have been an agreement, since he did not mention me at all to them on wiki before emailing them.

*He has raised 2 SPIs and one ANI against me, and this takes me away from contributing to wikipedia. As you pointed out, I edit on a wide range of articles. But my range and volume dropped significantly after this happened. And I'm not the only one affected. Even uninvolved admins who only wanted to help have been dragged in and affected by his vendetta. Not to count the time wasted by all the SPI clerks and admins he has approached who have to go through the same "evidence" repeatedly case after case. Zhanzhao (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, I saw that the first admin to undo a block was the one to implement the next block. Doesn't change the fact that that admin was also immediately overruled. As for your request that I look at OZ's talk page: sorry, but when other users diligently provide all the evidence in a concise and comprehensive manner and are still ignored by admins who don't click on diffs, why should I be expected to go out and search for your evidence for you?
• I know what you were referring to. I fail to see how it is relevant to your IBAN request, though, when the clerks were apparently just as suspicious as OZ was.
• ...What?
• Yes, and how is that relevant to an IBAN with you in particular if he has been having disagreements with other users who he accused of being sockpuppets, and the admins who didn't block them? Most of what you're saying seems to be just a general smear campaign against OZ, rather than providing evidence of harassment against you that would merit an IBAN.
• Sorry, but that's not how it works. I genuinely wish people who admitted to engaging in potentially disruptive off-site email-contact were obliged to divulge what and to whom they wrote, but that's not how the game works. And if you don't know what was in those emails, you are treading a thin line in assuming that they were about you (you admit above that "he did not mention at all to them on wiki before emailing them"). Emailing other users is not a violation of any policies or guidelines per se, and it seems to be something OZ does regularly and peaceably on a variety of issues. You are perfectly free to think that he is talking about you in the emails, but it is not a valid piece of evidence in favour of an IBAN.
• That seems to be something of a misrepresentation: according to the fourth chart on this page, if your edits decreased in number at any given time it was in mid-2013, and in the last month or so you've made the same number of mainspace edits that you had in the preceding eight months. If OZ's recent behaviour is distracting you from contributing to the encyclopedia, it certainly isn't reflected in your account's edit history. Your reference to "uninvolved admins who only wanted to help have been dragged in and affected by his vendetta" is curious as well: if Bgwhite wants to ask for an IBAN with OZ they are more than welcome to do so, but this thread is about an IBAN between you and OZ, so Bgwhite's time being wasted is not a valid piece of evidence for you to bring up. If Bgwhite feels that their time has been wasted as a result of the feud between you two, that is for them to decide and to state, not you. If they choose not to post in this thread after being pinged, then we shouldn't just assume they are in favour of an IBAN. Same goes for all the others.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:47, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Opposition withdrawn. Just noticed Salvidrim's post below. If this dispute can drive a user like that to swearing then I'm staying the hell away. I won't directly support an IBAN for the same reason. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:51, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm legitimately sorry if my vociferousness scared you off this discussion -- although to be brutally honest, I'd probably recommend to anyone who asks me to avoid this shitstorm too, so for your own peace of mind, you might want to steer clear of getting involved. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:43, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support IBAN, and I would even support a one-way OZ > Zhanzao IBAN if it came to that. OZ has been repeatedly warned by CUs (at least Callanecc and DoRD) to drop the fucking stick after arguing with us repeatedly and questioning our competence, and that he was venturing deep into harassment territory. OZ's total inability to move on when he is proven wrong by numerous CUs/admins agreeing that there are no sockpuppetry violations going despite repeated warnings is disheartening -- we've privately discussed the possibility of blocking him if he kept at it and luckily haven't had to yet. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 14:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Don't mislead others Salvidrim. Yes your judgement was highly innappropriate. Sad thing is that you even want to fix it, even after having compelling evidence that the abuse was intended. Have you checked those violations through IPs, proxies? Callanecc and DoRD already knows that I have proven the remaining suspects to be blatant sock puppets.(also check ) What a silly misrepresentation of outdated "warning" you have made. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• You shouldn't try to mislead others, yourself. Those accounts are clearly unrelated to Zhanzhao, and they aren't even related to the account you thought that they were, so why are you even mentioning them here? ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC) In addition, I don't see any evidence that Salvidrim! is trying to mislead anyone. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 15:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yes they are not related to Zhanzhao but Salvidrim is referring to the advice that was made in relation to these accounts.(of stillstanding/sonic) Though the matter is already resolved. Had I shown other diffs that time? Not. Salvidrim is treating like nothing has been changed. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:04, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oh fuck off, you've got your fingers buried deep in your ears and relentlessly refuse to hear anyhting we're saying. I'm walking away from this energy-sucking vortex that you're pumping and I'm not interested in engaging in renewed "discussion" with you. Attempting to respond in any logical or diplomatic manner will just allow things to devolve even further and enough time has been wasted by many admins/CUs trying to try to convince you that ZHANZAO IS NOT DEMONSTRATBLY VIOLATING SOCKPUPPETRY POLICY, a fact which you obviously prefer ignoring entirely. I hope you're at least enjoying yourself, although I can't imagine anyone being this wrong and obstinate and not feeling totally miserable. Cheers! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 15:24, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

That essay is not supporting any of your assumptions. Cite the evidence/policy not speculations. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:27, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• So much for that "brother", haven't we have heard many brother stories before? I agree with Hijri88 that there is no evidence of disruption, no personal attack, no wikihounding, just nothing from Occultzone. Interaction ban is not for suppressing the exposure of your dirty works such as socking even if someone wants to stick to that. Furthermore I believe that this request should be closed and requesting user should be indefinitely blocked, as long as socking is a matter of seriousness. SamuelDay1 (talk) 15:08, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban. I've been one of the clerks/CUs asked to review the Zhanzhao sockpuppetry case and I was not convinced with the behavioral evidence presented and the technical evidence did not support his claims. I'm growing concerned that OccultZone will continue to make sockpuppetry claims towards Zhanzhao, despite findings to the contrary. This is rising to the level where an interaction ban would be quite helpful. Mike V • Talk 15:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• How come you could not count 2 articles then? You counted "one article" and you were there to support "some of" the evidence, not even whole or half. And then you are citing a wrong SPI. Why you didn't even replied to what had been posted on your talk page? I had asked for the policy. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:24, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support iban, even a one way OZ-->Z iban as proposed by Salvidrim!. I have, unfortunately, been in the middle of this since near the beginning, and if it takes an iban to separate these two, then so be it. OccultZone, after being told numerous times, by numerous people, that there is nothing actionable at this time against Zhanzhao or DanS, continues to pursue the case with an almost singular focus. This needs to stop. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 15:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Huh? Wrong. I have made over 11,000 edits in last 16 days. No idea what you are talking about. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:23, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• 11,000 trivial edits to categories, talk pages, and the like don't obscure the obvious. Anyway, it appears that you are open to Begoon's advice, so I suggest that it would be best if you were to take it. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 15:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• You are counting the last 50 edits or all 11,000 edits? How come you ignored thousands of edits to main the article? All of these edits are major. Though I wouldn't find it amazing since your miscalculation was also evident in the case of Resaltador. Since the matters make no sound it is generally better to leave. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I support views of OccultZone --Human3015 15:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban. Those two definitely don't go along, this whole thread speaks for itself. RE: Hijiri 88 "unless actual evidence of disruption is presented" — whatever else this post may not prove, it certainly proves disruption. Kraxler (talk) 15:21, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban. I've followed this, because OZ is an editor I recall from previous interaction. I like OZ, he's a well meaning editor, and dedicated, but boy do sticks adhere to his fingers... OZ, as many have told you, you need to leave others to deal with this, if there is anything to deal with. Your involvement has become obsessive, and I'm supporting this IBAN because I'd hate to see the block you are rushing towards become a reality. Please disengage entirely. Right now. Begoon  15:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• You are actually correct. Looking at the views of others, and everything else that is happening around I really find this all pretty lame myself now. Lets see... OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 15:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Just leave it alone, please. Don't reply here, or anywhere else about it, at all. The IBAN will still probably pass, but that won't matter, cos it'll be a dropped stick, right? This way you can maybe avoid major sanctions over this, and continue with your other valuable contributions. Begoon  15:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Looks quick and premature. Only a few days of interaction and 6 or 7 talk pages. We can still hear what they think now. Hajme 17:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is nonsensical on so many levels.VictoriaGrayson 00:00, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
• Proposal is withdrawn by the requesting user per discussion below. SamuelDay1 (talk) 02:02, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Updated: See next 2 subtopics Zhanzhao (talk) 04:15, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Thanks everyone for their votes. I not only agree with the oppose but also with the support votes. The reason why I didn't gave up, well it is because he continued to watch over my contributions. Yes the interaction ban is one choice, but there are clearly better things to try in this case. Had he said that he would not watch over my contributions, there would be no such circumstances either. He even considered my edits to Lee Kuan Yew to be related to with his dispute, and significantly reported to another admin. Though he might have knew later on that I was there only for fixing a factual error and I didn't even knew if he was there. Can be because of the popularity of the article.

I have also realized now, he is probably correct that he was not really a problem anymore for me that had been started since 23 March, unfortunately he became the target. That can be also a reason why he watched the contributions. In that case we can just return to our normal form. Having content dispute is one thing, but unnecessarily raising the conduct issues is different. But hopefully, I can agree now. Normally how 2 editors act, that is what we will have to prefer from now. I am writing this not only because of a few realizations but also because of the seriousness that has been shown above by others.

So what anyone has to say about this? Indeed, if problems arises anywhere near to this level, we will find here ourselves again. Although I can really assure that it is not going to happen at all. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:24, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

There is only one question. Will you now drop this issue, entirely, and completely? That's what experienced editors, functionaries, and friends, have asked, no, begged you to do, for your own sake, and ours. It's a simple "yes/no" question. I suggest a one-word answer. Begoon  17:31, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. That is what I have stated above, especially the 2nd paragraph. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I understand that as an assurance that you will not raise this issue again, at all, in any way, anywhere, and that sanctions may result should you do so. But then I worry...Begoon  17:47, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Declaration: If I can get his word here that he will stop continuing to reopen closed cases based on old evidence, I'll step away from his way. Thats what I've wanted to do since all this started. Again, IF he does find suspicious new socking activity thats clearly related to me (good evidence, not just tagging my name to another random SPI investigation), I have no problem with that. Zhanzhao (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Zhanzhao: I have already clarified that above. In the light of your latest agreement there is no need to make any SPI that would resemble the previous one, you can forget what happened before and from now it is like a new start since your recent agreement. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:04, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Accepted. See my reply at bottom of next subtopic. Zhanzhao (talk) 05:14, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Socking

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So, what do we do about the rather obvious sock puppetry by Zhanzao?

Incidentally: from my Quackford English Ducktionary, "Suck puppetry: Sock puppetry, but done really badly". Guy (Help!) 21:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

You've got it right. It looks like that was the sole reason why Occultzone even bothered. Actually anyone would if a serious report confirming violation of so many years and supported by every necessary evidences would had been rejected and socks were treated were so greatly. I fail to find if any rules that would justify such abuse, or even a prior sock puppetry case. Automatically, I feel discriminated because I cannot sock even for one edit, while Zhanzhao can for every edit. Delibzr (talk) 21:27, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't encourage him. Sockpuppetry has only continued to be disproved by CUs and other admins since you yourself told OZ to drop it, JzG. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:33, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

That was before the WP:BROTHER comment above. Guy (Help!) 21:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

It looks like Occult had asked Jzg to see this set, and Jzg told him "that it's unlikely" per CU, but these socks are also blocked now and we are back to the convictions of socking where you found brother excuses, and now again questioning the heroic release from sock puppetry, though he really wanted to sock. If I have definitely told one to "stop using your family relatives, friends for socking", while I sock all time and upon conviction I tell that "I didn't socked, my brother helps and stalks my contribution history", would you believe it? How dense it would be. Delibzr (talk) 21:52, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

TO Delibrzr, actually the context was totally different back then. If you looked at the thread where that about me supposing to know about meatpuppetry , it was quoted by DanS76, not me; it was from years ago; and the offending editor Ahnan was actively going to off-wiki forums to recruit people to come into Misplaced Pages to editwar on his side. When that policy was mentioned years ago, I didn't even think much about the family angle, it was just looking at the "off-wiki" part when I saw that. And you'll observe from the conversation that DanS76 was riling Ahnan up while I was trying to calm Ahnan down to prevent prevent escalation (yes, we don't always agree, which I pointed out before in the old SPI).Zhanzhao (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

That means that the named account still socked along with you, while warning others not to do the same. Hypocritical. I don't care how much you both were bullying Ahnan or any other editors you have. I am just saying that it all looks so fake, and unsupported by any rules. Delibzr (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• As the result of several SPIs, numerous CUs/clerks/admins have determined (both with behavioural and technical evidence) that: ZHANZAO IS NOT DEMONSTRABLY VIOLATING SOCKPUPETTRY POLICY.
  I don't know how much clearer this can be made. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• That barbaric shout is clearly unhelpful and it comes with no evidence and contrary to they have written above. "both with behavioural and technical evidence" definitely share mutuality when they are also admitted by the suspect. Why you are deceiving? I just asked if you will take same kind of heroic decision when anyone else would be convicted upon socking, which is still not answered by you. Delibzr (talk) 22:07, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Salvidrim! I reduced your 100px red rant down to 20px, which is bad enough. You're an admin, you should know better than to do shit like that. Please don't do it again. BMK (talk) 22:23, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks, BMK. I dunno if OZ is contagious but it seems I am also having some trouble letting go of this -- how ironic that I should fall prey to the same pitfalls I am accusing OZ of digging himself in. These are hopefully my last words on this whole shitstorm. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 22:29, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I understand precisely what you mean. BMK (talk) 22:33, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Declaration: As mentioned, I would not find any issue if a new SPI was raised against me by OZ based on suspicious new socking activity. The WP:BROTHER angle is no longer in the equation as DanS76 has quit. At risk of self-outing, I've even sent OZ and another 2 admins info about me and my family which shows that I actually have 2 brothers. However I can reveal that the 2nd one is overseas long-term, and (I asked) he does not edit on wikipedia. So even that is a non-issue. Its a waste of me, OZ, and everyone else's time to repeatedly defend myself again and again over the same evidence. I'm not afraid of continued scrutiny since I don't sock. I just want to move on and not have to continually return to a dead-horse-flogging-party with everyone else. Zhanzhao (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• You have warned others against such meat puppetry as well and you clearly knew what can happen when you told others not to make such "mistake", lobbying one admin is not going to remove the heinous breach that you have done. Delibzr (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I did not lobby anyone. I only sent out the personal info to 3 people in response to OZ's claims I was making up the fact about having brothers - him being one the people I sent it to, and 2 other admins who volunteered to look at the info. And for that 2010 case, I repeating a warning to the other editor about recruiting someone fresh from outside wiki to help him in his edit war: I was not the one who posted the Meatpuppetry policy, so I only read a few lines above that thread about the quoted policy and was focused more on the "recruiting people from the outside to participate" bit, and barely though about that after the incident. I did not fully realize the implication of having someone who is also an editor in the same family and would edit similarly would face. Once asked about our relationship, I clarified it immediately, the admin suggested that we should make clear on our individual accounts that we were related/editing from the same IP, which was done. And that DanS76 has retired his account makes it doubly certain this would not be an issue anymore moving forward. Zhanzhao (talk) 01:06, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Zhanzhao as multiple editors have raised concerns over your actions they want some outcome. I would propose that you should agree to restrict yourself to one account from now. No IPs or any accounts, any other violation can lead to indef. Any other account that you used before can be blocked now, as you have also confirmed that they are of no use. So would you agree? SamuelDay1 (talk) 01:23, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi SamuelDay1, I have no intention of violating any rules. Anything I have done, I did with the best of intentions. Anything I did wrong, I am prepared to deal wih it. If I intended to sock, I would have just abandoned this account which has so much baggage. But I continue with it, warts and all with all the SPI and block history, because I have always been transparent about everything I have done. Even OZ pointed out above of an instance when I accidentally edited while logged out, and logged in just to clarify it was me. So again, this was, is and will be the only account I use on wikipedia Zhanzhao (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

So I may consider that you have accepted my above proposal already? SamuelDay1 (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes with a strong emphasis. Because irregardless of what others believe, editing with one account is what I have always done. You can also include a furter note that if there is evidence of meatpuppetry, WP:FAMILY or WP:BROTHER, that counts against me as well - if anyone else in my family begins to edit here, I think I will really just quit Misplaced Pages totally to avoid all this drama again. Zhanzhao (talk) 01:49, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Zhanzhao has now agreed that he would restrict himself to one account and any other accounts(namely DanS76) can be blocked. Closing admin should log this entry as restriction to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. Worm That Turned, OccultZone, Begoon, Hijiri88, Yunshui and others can also see that he has taken these concerns and is willing to move forward. SamuelDay1 (talk) 02:02, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have no problem with it, thank you for your efforts. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:07, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• UPDATED: As OccultZone has made it clear on my page that he would not be filing SPIs against me again, I will take his word for it since he has also promised Begoon the same. As mentioned repeatedly, I leave the door open to him filing a new SPI against me if he should notice new suspicious activity from me. This has always been my desired outcome. Zhanzhao (talk) 05:14, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• It is a good choice to limit with one account and leave other accounts behind. Both have agreed too. Delibzr (talk) 06:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Request alteration of WP:EDR entry's wording

Hey, about two years ago Tristan noir (talk · contribs) was banned from editing Japanese literature articles and interacting with me. The precise wording by User:DangerousPanda was A mutual IB between them and User:Elvenscout742 (now renamed to User:Hijiri88) was originally in place. Following an incident fabricated by Tristan, an AN discussion has resulted in a one-way IB for Tristan. They are also topic-banned from Japanese literature, broadly construed. Although the IB was lifted for Elvenscout, they have been warned to neither poke the bear nor "grave dance".

The last sentence was actually not supported by anything in the thread except a statement by User:Zad68 that I should continue refraining from interacting with Tristan noir as I already had been doing. The latter user's later comment makes it impossible to interpret the earlier statement as an accusation that I had been at fault. I didn't oppose the addition of a warning to me initially, since it didn't have any negative consequences, but that has now changed. The gender-neutral plural wording "they are also topic-banned" has also been misinterpreted as applying to me, which is the exact opposite of the consensus of that thread.

This, on top of the fact that I've gone over two years without either "poking the bear" or "grave-dancing" with regard to Tristan noir (who hasn't even edited in over a year), inclines me to ask for the last sentence of Tristan noir's IBAN/TBAN to be removed, and for "they are" to be changed to "they are".

I was going to just message DangerousPanda, but that user hasn't edited in four months, apparently as a result of ArbCom desysopping him. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to make the change myself.

So I'm here.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• First thing: I support clarification of the pronoun "they" to something equally gender-neutral but that doesn't cause potential singular/plural confusion. That seems noncontroversial. As for the note of the warning to you, I think it was 100% appropriate, but is no longer necessary to keep it displayed one year later, especially since there does not seem to have been further issues and Tristan has been gone for over a year. I am also uncomfortable with the word "fabricated" because of its connotations, but a wording change at this point seems like a bit futile, so we could leave it. My new proposed wording: "Originally, a mutual IBAN between Tristan Noir and Hijiri88 (who was named Elvenscout742 back then) was in place. Following an incident fabricated by Tristan, an AN discussion has resulted in a one-way IBAN for Tristan towards Hijir88. Tristan is also topic-banned from Japanese literature, broadly construed.". ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 14:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that Tristan has also expressed unease at the use of the verb "fabrication" (see my talk), I'm looking for alternative that would still accurately describe the events without imposing the overly negative connotations. Perhaps "initiated" might be better? ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:46, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

"Following an incident initiated by Tristan" works. TN doesn't seem to mind it either. By the way, it's technically inaccurate to say he has abided by the ban since February 2013. Just to clarify, since the "incident" in question involved TN not editing for an extended period and emerging immediately when I mentioned them in order to present a skewed picture to an admin. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:59, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

"Instigated by"? Squinge (talk) 08:09, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Given it's the admin noticeboards, "ignited" is probably the best word. Blackmane (talk) 08:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I demand immediate assistance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I demand immediate assistance. It seems that a complex of editors is working to facilitate sock puppetry. The machinery of the SPI system seems to have been corrupted. We must root out this corruption at once. I need assistance from able-minded editors and administrators at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dicklyon. I have provided obvious evidence of sock puppetry, but a group of editors, including a partisan in related disputes, is trying to negate it. It would be appreciate if uninvolved persons could read the evidence, so that we can stamp out this corruption once and for all. There has never been a more clear case in the history of Misplaced Pages. I will not tolerate the continuance of this corruption. RGloucester — ☎ 17:22, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

How exactly does a SPI discussion in which only three people have participated provide evidence that "a complex of editors is working to facilitate sock puppetry"? RGloucester starts the SPI, Reaper Eternal explains policy - that we don't use checkuser in this particular context - and Bbb23 assesses the evidence. Even if Bbb23 is wrong (or even 'corrupt' - though we have had no evidence for that), there is precisely zero evidence of any sort of conspiracy being presented here AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I looked over everything and I see no evidence of any sockpuppetry. I also see no evidence of "corruption". Perhaps you need to adjust your perceptions, RGloucester, as I could point you to thousands of cases which are more clear than this one. Perhaps get up from the keyboard and walk it off. It seems you may be getting too emotionally involved in this instance. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:43, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Did you Know?

That framing your request for assistance from your fellow volunteers as a "demand" is the surest way to make people not want to help you? I demand a paycheck. Then we can talk. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

It is for the common good. No one can reject the collective will. That would be inhuman. There is clear sock puppetry. I don't know what people want from me. It is so clear as to be so clear as to be so clear. There is nothing more to be said. This must be dealt with AT ONCE. The evidence is absolute. Absolutely absolute. There is no room for anything less. RGloucester — ☎ 17:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Nope. The only evidence for anything you have provided so far is that a single person disagrees with your assertions of sockpuppetry. That person might possibly be wrong. Even if they are, it provides precisely zero evidence of 'corruption'. I suggest that you either provide the evidence, or retract the claim - because otherwise the 'collective will' may very well go against you. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:55, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no "you". Only the collective. Regardless, the "corruption" I speak of lies within the accused Dicklyon, who has participated in such corruption since the year 2011. Now that sock puppetry is added in, it is clear that he will not stop at nothing to get his way. He must be stopped! There is not enough time. He must be STOPPED. The evidence is provided at the SPI. It is as light as day. RGloucester — ☎ 17:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I think RGloucester is referring to me here. I think I plus bbb23 is the "complex of editors". You can review my edits from today to Talk:Blackfriars Massacre and RGloucester's and my talk page. But maybe I'm wrong: RGloucester, it would be helpful if you would be more specific about whose behavior is problematic here and notify them on their respective talk pages. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:00, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non administrator comment) For the benefit of the OP, perhaps they could be temporarily prevented from continuing this, and have it handled by the admins? It really looks like they could use a break from this for a bit. ScrapIronIV (talk) 18:01, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Everyone must be problematic, for there is no "ONE". Combined we are a complex, separate we are non-existent. Destroy the sock puppet. The sock puppet must be destroyed. I will not allow the continuation of this corruption. One cannot criticise the person who sheds light on sock puppetry. One must challenge the master. It is the master who must be CHALLENGED. RGloucester — ☎ 18:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to go ahead and say what we are all thinking: you are ranting like a crazy person. I don't think you are a crazy person though. So maybe you just need to calm down and consider the possibility that you are simply mistaken and there is not some vast conspiracy to promote socking? Beeblebrox (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec)I will not tolerate...I will not allow. This is not your call. You can choose to continue editing or stop, those are the choices that are available to you. Do not dig yourself into a deeper hole or you might not be able to get out. Liz 18:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I have notified Dicklyon of this discussion. RGloucester, etiquette demands notice to involved parties when posting here about someone. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

CORRUPTION! The corrupt have no concern for etiquette! Do we grant them what they deny? Enough is enough. RGloucester — ☎ 18:07, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Carthago delenda est. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh my god. I decided to try to figure out what Rglou was ranting about. Maybe I didn't look deeply enough, but it appears the issue is whether "Blackfriars massacre" should have a capital M. Alsee (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

That's pretty close to accurate. A true shame. Two generally useful editors banging their heads together. Produced more heat than light. BusterD (talk) 18:52, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

A modest proposal

Given the above, it seems self-evident that at this moment in time RGloucester has gone into full-blown hyperbolic rant mode, and accordingly doesn't stand the slightest chance of winning over anyone to his point of view. I would thus have to suggest that it would be in his own self-interest if he were to be blocked for a period of 24 hours so he can calm down, think about the point he is trying to get across, compile proper evidence, and then make a case that doesn't involve denial of the existence of contributors as individuals, assertions of being the personification of the collective will, and other attempts to channel Mao, Stalin and/or Charlie Chaplin. If he has a genuine issue, it will be better discussed calmly, and without calls for revolution and the return of the Patriotic Shortener. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:15, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I have been watching this RGloucester/Dicklyon conflict for some time and while I have tended to side with RGloucester on the merits, I now believe that user has gone too far. There's something deeper and uglier here which needs timely treatment. Previously I was going to suggest a iban between the users but in the SPI and the thread above RGloucester has revealed that some preventative sanction might need be taken against that user. If they can't themselves take a time out, perhaps a block may help. BusterD (talk) 18:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

After reviewing his block log it is clear this is not the first time he has freaked out like this. Clearly very short blocks have failed to send the intended message, so I've just blocked for two weeks. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Both the block and its length seem appropriate and necessary. --Kinu /_c 18:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I was going to suggest one week, but two is just fine. Thanks for taking action. Still suspect an iban will be necessary. BusterD (talk) 18:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Null edit needed on protected template

Would a helpful admin please make a null edit on {{sfn}}? Just open it and click save. I have added some TemplateData fields to it and would like to verify that everything has worked correctly, but changes don't take effect until an edit is made. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Done, did it work? NawlinWiki (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

  It did. May have to tweak it some, but the fields are now visible in the visual editor, which is what I was looking for. Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:27, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Closure review of Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven#Infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Backlog

CAT:CSD is looking a bit backlogged, it's been hovering around the 100 mark for a while now. Could somebody take a look through it sometime? Pishcal — ♣ 19:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism by 103.226.86.254 at Koobface.

103.226.86.254 has been repeatedly vandalizing Koobface. Please see Special:Contributions/103.226.86.254 Peaceray (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Peaceray, thanks for raising this. More than one IP vandalising the article so I've semi-protected it for a couple of days until they get bored. You can also get a quick response to vandalism by drawing attention to it at WP:AIV -- Euryalus (talk) 22:46, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes it takes them a few hours even if the vandalism is obvious. Delibzr (talk) 06:27, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Depends if Materialscientist is online or not. But we could always do with more admins patrolling AIV. Nominations welcome. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:36, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

2 1/2 year Backlog at WP:EF/R

There are unresolved requests at WP:EF/R dating back to 2013! If any admins with Edit Filter experience could dodge over there and close down some of the old requests (it seems clear that a 2-year old unfulfilled request is likely to be formally denied) and perhaps respond to some of the new requests (there are several recent requests for new edit filters that could use some work) that'd be great. Thanks! --Jayron32 23:19, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

New editor removing other editor's comments

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi! José Antonio Zapato (talk · contribs) is a new editor who has decided to dive into discussing the potential deletion of a redirection. He deleted a comment I made at an RfD for a redirect. When I reinserted the comment and informed him on his talk page that editors should not remove or alter other editors comments, he reverted my comment again as well as reverted my comment on his talk page. He cited WP:NPA for reverting my comment on the RfD the second time- I don't believe my comment was in any way a violation of this, although his citing wikipedia policy indicates he should know enough to not remove comments by other editors. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:41, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Your comment reads like a sarcasm, but it is not actually offensive. SamuelDay1 (talk) 02:49, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have done this. I've removed a sarcastic comment directed at me personally by name. It is unhelpful in a discussion about redirects and attacks me specifically. Please advise the editor above to stop re-inserting it. José Antonio Zapato (talk) 02:53, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Sarcasm is not same as attack. SamuelDay1 (talk) 03:05, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

It's unfortunate this incivility is tolerated. I had no quarrel nor interaction with this editor previous to his comment, but one sarcastic remark encourages an equally sarcastic response, and on and on until the database contains more sarcasm than encyclopedia. C'est la vie. José Antonio Zapato (talk) 03:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not really a personal attack in the grand schmee of things. It is pointless snark. Inexplicably you have both now edit-warred to the edge of 3RR over this issue. I've hatted the comment so you can alternately ignore it and still feel like you made your point. Please now both find something more productive to do. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• I think there's an important lesson here. Sometimes, people do things they shouldn't. Sometimes also, the appropriate response is to do nothing. Yes, the sarcasm was incivil and should not have happened. The appropriate response, in this case, should still have been nothing. Misplaced Pages does not have mechanisms for punishing minor violations of the civility policy (nor should it.) Instead, we need to be able to both recognize that the initial comment should not have been made, and also be OK with doing nothing in response. --Jayron32 03:31, 18 April 2015 (UTC)