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Talk:Elazar Shach

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Debresser (talk | contribs) at 21:09, 22 April 2015 (→Ideologue and Zealot: Add two more things.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Quote from book "Raising Roses Among the Thorns"

Please see Fladrif's comments here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_146#Quote_from_book_.22Raising_Roses_Among_the_Thorns.22_regarding_Rabbi_Elazar_Shach

Assuming no valid objections are raised, I will be restoring the information shortly. Thanks

Yonoson3 (talk) 02:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem here. An interesting quote. Although not sure how important. Debresser (talk) 07:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

In agreement with Yonoson, and it is very important particularly since the question of drafting Haredi yeshiva students is now even more a key topic of public discussion in Israel, after the latest Israeli elections with the Haredi leaders now in opposition it has become one of the biggest and most divisive hot potatoe political and religious issues in Israel. IZAK (talk) 10:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree. If that what it is about, then that is important and actual. Debresser (talk) 13:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

NOTE: Per WP:RSN: "Resolved: Clearly a reliable source. Underlying disputes should be raised at another DR board. Fladrif (talk) 14:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC) " Thank you, IZAK (talk) 21:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi IZAK, thanks for the input.
Just want to clarify something, though. The quote from the book "Raising Roses Among the Thorns" (1) is not about the Haredi draft. That is from a different book, "Israel and the Politics of Jewish Identity: The Secular-Religious Impasse" (2).
But either way, Fladrif agreed that the quotes from both books are reliable. Yonoson3 (talk) 22:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Quote from book "Israel and the Politics of Jewish Identity: The Secular-Religious Impasse"

This was discussed at length here. Fladriff's conclusion: "Resolved: Clearly a reliable source. Underlying disputes should be raised at another DR board."

Assuming no valid objections are raised, I will be restoring the quote shortly. Thanks. Yonoson3 (talk) 01:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Edits and restoring previous version.

I've restored some information and undone a few of IZAK's edits of March 2013 which make no sense and had no consensus. If anybody wants to make major changes to the structure of a controversial article they should seek consensus first and that way we can avoid a lot of the wars that went on here in the past.--C Steffen 21:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Position on territorial compromise

I've removed the statement added by Yonoson3 claiming that Ovadia Yosef 'concurred with Shach's opinion' on this issue since the sources provided don't even mention Shach so its pure wp:synth. Please don't put back any info that isn't properly sourced and really, PLEASE don't fabricate sources!--C Steffen 02:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Csteffen13 (talk • contribs)

Ideologue and Zealot

These people are NOT described in their Misplaced Pages summaries as ideologues and zealots: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Hassan Nasrallah, Osama Bin Laden, Louis Farrakhan.

Apparently, these biased, hateful words are reserved by Jewish Misplaced Pages editors to use against learned rabbis only. I removed them and they were replaced. I removed them again. This is not the encyclopedia style that is supposed to be maintained here! MosheEmes (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, the editor who replaced those words claimed that they were "sourced" (from a Haaretz article, which is a newspaper generally unsympathetic to Haredim). I can't find the original online but I reworded it to sound more neutral and kept the source reference. I see no problem with that. MosheEmes (talk) 00:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right, MosheEmes. WP:LABEL, part of the Manual of Style, says that "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option." If it is necessary to use the words "ideologue" and "zealot"—and I don't believe it is—we should say something like "Haaretz described Shach as an ideologue and zealot". — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 03:42, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. I think this is another case of censoring Misplaced Pages (the first being when Shlomo Sand was not called "controversial", despite multiple reliable sources saying precisely that). The strange thing is that some editors prefer removing factually correct, neutrally worded, relevant and reliably sourced information from articles, and there is no outcry. Well, at least I want to register my strong disagreement with this approach. I think the words "zealot" and "ideologue" must stay. Debresser (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
To counter the argument as though the text should use a qualifier like "has been described as". First of all, I can live with that, by way of compromise. But actually, this is not necessary, according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. If the source is reliable, then on Misplaced Pages we do not have to use such qualifiers. The opposite would lead to ridiculous situations, where every statement would need to be qualified in such a way. Debresser (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I'd also ask MosheEmes to not compare the rabbi to terrorists, as that makes the argument emotional instead of rationale.
Another form of compromise I could live with is have a more moderate sentence in the lead, and move the present sentence to the Political life section. Debresser (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
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