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1


Edit warring on this essay

This is an essay. The content for this essay comes from real-life experience with real-life divas. Paraphrasing a quote from a user to this policy without linking or mentioning who that quote came from is not "harassment". There is no censorship here. Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs), clearly a user with an extensive history of disruption when looking at the block log for this account, has been edit-warring with me on this, and it is not appreciated or needed. The edit summary accusing me of "representing the worse of WP's hostility & nastiness" is repugnant and unfounded. Doc talk 07:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You have no credibility, Doc. You're simply dishonest, and attempting to harass Eric Corbett thru your post. Remember this?:

I haven't posted there since my last post, and I don't plan on it. It seems pretty clear I'd be blocked for "harassment" if I were to ever post there again. Doc talk 06:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

You added the harassing post and I reverted you, then you claimed I should do WP:BRD on it, which is arse-backwards. (Another proof of your disingenuousness.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
This is not Eric Corbett's page, and I haven't posted there since I said that. I never brought his name up here - you did. Your block log, frankly, sucks. I take little stock in your credibility, as I've never been blocked for TE and the like. And you ain't going to get me to do it. Doc talk 08:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
More dishonesty from you ...

Your edit sum:

No links, paraphrased. Simply the perfect summation of the diva mentality, You can't make this shit up. Brilliant!

Your post:

"Misplaced Pages needs me far more than I need Misplaced Pages."

What Eric Corbett wrote:

Misplaced Pages needs me far more than I need Misplaced Pages. User:Eric Corbett 23:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(So where's the "paraphrase", liar?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
I didn't link or attribute any quote to any particular editor. No reader would come along and think that quote to be "harassment". Harassment of who? And you'd better stop calling me a liar. Your block log is making more sense with every attack you make. Kicking me off your talk page (a classic way to both get the last word and simultaneously set up groundwork for a "baiting" claim): unimpressive. Doc talk 08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
You're such a paper tiger. (And so full of BS. Are you an "encyclopedia builder"? I think not. You should be blocked. Drmies was right, you are a "disruptor". Go soak your head.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
More attacks. There's no question who the proven "disruptor" is here. Let's compare block logs before deciding who should be blocked. Go play chess. Doc talk 10:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What DIVA is not

This is a fine essay. I want to see a section on "What DIVA is now" OR "Don't misinterpret Diva". For example

  • Not all personal experience is DIVA argument: Very recently I said an editor "I Have seen many times non-English redirects being nominated for deletion". I have ACTUALLY seen it. I was telling him my experience. Nothing else.
  • DIVA is not a weapon of spammers and trolls': So that they will use this page to close any protester's/admin's mouth.

More importantly—

  • Real incidents: We are not bots. We may have emotions. And after some conflicts and/or disputes or for any other reason we may need short breaks. Misplaced Pages also suggests to take such breaks. After an article move in November, I was so upset, I took a short Wikibreak, though I did not announce or write about the Wikibreak anywhere. Not all retirements or wikibreaks are DIVAs.

Tito☸Dutta 22:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Jânio Quadros image

I added a {{CN}} tag. Jânio Quadros mentions the resignation initiated "serious political crisis". I am not sure "good for who"? --Tito☸Dutta 22:58, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Dealing with divas

This essay only tells us what to do if you're a member of the diva's entourage. But if you're a follower then the appropriate thing to do is to fulfill your destiny and fawn all over the diva, "Oh please, don't go! Don't go! We need you too much! We love you!" What I'd like to know is, how to deal with a diva when you're one of the little people, the toe-steppers busy being squashed by the diva and the diva's entourage of heavies. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Misplaced Pages:Don't be high-maintenance be renamed and moved somewhere else, with the name being decided below.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log

Misplaced Pages:Don't feed the divas → ? – Precedent: Move of WP:Don't be a dick to WP:Don't be a jerk, which didn't even involve any issues relating to WP:BIAS against women. The message of this essay (don't engage, or enable others to engage, in "entitled" demands to get one's way, especially through threats to quit the project) is important, but it offends (I've caught heat for even mentioning it) for the sole reason that its title and a few bits of its wording are pretty much the same thing as having this be at "WP:BITCH". There has to be a way to express this without being misogynistic, when Misplaced Pages's main point of criticism in academia and the press is a hostile editing environment for, and poor coverage of, women.   I detest unwarranted "political correction" and picking at "microaggressions", so if I find this troubling, it's probably inappropriate in an encyclopedia project. It's a PR and WP:Editor retention problem. It also defeats the point of the essay, which (as with WP:JERK) is intended to reduce strife, not generate more of it. The name no longer makes sense anyway, since its referent, WP:Don't feed the trolls is now WP:Deny recognition. I suggest many alternatives below (WP:Deny entitlement, etc.). If we kept the current name style, I'm not sure what a good replacement term would be. "Royalty" came to mind first.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  15:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose; I don't see that the current title needs a rename. It conveys the message far better than "royalty" would. While diva usually refers to a woman, the WP:Diva essay is clear that it's gender-neutral. Since bitch is mentioned in this section, I point out that bitch has increasingly referred to men over the years. I wouldn't mind a WP:BITCH essay, but we already have WP:Don't be a jerk. And, by the way, I disliked when WP:Don't be a dick was changed to WP:Don't be a jerk. Also, if anyone thinks that I don't have a problem with these titles because I'm male, that's not it; I'm female. Flyer22 (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
    Yeah, I'm not wedded to "royalty"; just the first idea off the top of my head, and there are many more ideas below. The rest of that I've refuted in detail here. None of this constitutes a source- or policy-based (or clear common-sense-based) rationale against the move.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  05:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
    I don't mind supporting this essay being moved to WP:TANTRUM or WP:HISSYFIT, though. I don't see a problem with those alternatives. Flyer22 (talk) 02:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Seems like pandering to a politically correct issue that isn't even really there. Divas are not exclusively female. I don't know a proper equivalent to encompass male divas without stepping on imaginary toes, but "royalty" is not it. All royals are not divas, obviously. I helped write a lot of this article, and none of my RL inspirations were female. WP has notoriously few female editors, as we well know. And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other. Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors. The title should remain as it is. Doc talk 06:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I've refuted this in detail here. You've provided no source- or policy-based (or clear common-sense-based) rationale against moving the page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ 

≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  07:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose because the current title is hilarious while getting straight to an important point. GregKaye 19:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: Redirect to WP:DENY, though something non-gendered like WP:TANTRUM has a ring to it. WP:JERK covers the rest. While the labels like troll, dick and diva have a ring to them for the frustrated, I can't think of one single time they have been used and resulted in a positive outcome. It's merely a method by which people can vent their spleen at someone else. Frankly, no one on the receiving end is going to take it to heart and just say, "oh my, I am so sorry I was being a , I most sincerely promise to take your admonition to heart and change my -ish ways." And yes, there are sexist implications, as there are for the b-word; just because slang is evolving new uses doesn't negate the power a word has when used in a more typically offensive fashion. Montanabw 19:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
    Montanabw, WP:DENY is discussing a different matter than this essay. And as for a Misplaced Pages editor realizing the error of their ways after being called a dick or a diva, some do. And I don't see how calling an editor a jerk or indicating that they should not be one results in "a positive outcome" more so than the "dick" and "diva" alternatives. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - I like Montanabw's idea of WP:TANTRUM. Perhaps WP:HISSYFIT would be a tad better though there's some suggestion this might come from hysteria? Might I suggest the humorous WP:Don't feed the drama llamas as well. Also agree that gendered insults, even when applied to another gender, are still gendered insults. When calling a man a bitch, you're saying he's acting like a woman, and that's intended to be insulting to him for some reason. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
A lot of people restrict the term bitch in that way, when applied to a man; others don't. Flyer22 (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support move to any title which isn't sexist or abrasive. If Doc and others don't care about the historical context of words or the perpetuation of sexism in society, they're entitled to their opinion; and we're entitled to not taking that opinion very seriously. Alakzi (talk) 11:23, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The current title is clear, descriptive and on-point. Without even reading the essay, one immediate groks the advice just by the title. It is in no way misogynistic. Used informally, diva has the same meaning as prima donna: "a person who thinks she or he is better than everyone else and who does not work well as part of a team or group". None of the alternatives that I have seen so far come close to being as meaningful and recognizable as the current title.- MrX 11:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The cases are not comparable. As far as I understand it, "Dick" is an open insult, while "diva" is just an adjetive with a negative meaning. Both are words that someone would not like to be described with, but they are not in the same location in the sliding scale of words to describe people. Cambalachero (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. "Sock" and "vandal" names can have some objective justification. "Diva" is subjective and open to abuse (duh, like it isn't/hasn't been used abusively?!; isn't that why it is here - to satisfy the need to be abusive - WP's hallmark character trait?). An incremental improvement in ocean of WP hypocrisy. WP s/n be sanctifying or encouraging name-calling per WP:NPA (duh). IHTS (talk) 21:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
    What a bunch of crap. You fling around insults at anyone who doesn't agree with your disgruntled view of how things should be around here. Don't have to look too far back in your block log for a "personal attack" block. You idolize people that epitomize this essay. The massive "inspirational quote" section on your user page should be deleted per WP:POLEMIC. Doc talk 00:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Trying to argue that the term diva isn't gendered requires some pretty tortured reasoning. "Well, I don't mean it that way" misses the point. WP:TANTRUM sounds like a good alternative. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose the claimed precedent was more offensive than the name here. I get the feeling that the reason that some (but not all above) do not like the title, is because they are behaving like the diva described in the essay. This includes the long diatribes. However people mostly do not like to be called "divas", whether male or female. The name of this is not so much an issue, but the way people may be accused of being a diva. The term diva is commonly used in English to those making an undue fuss, so the current name is appropriate. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Name ideas

Refutation of Flyer22's oppose

'I don't see that the current title needs a rename. It conveys the message far better than "royalty" would. While diva usually refers to a woman, the WP:Diva essay is clear that it's gender-neutral. Since bitch is mentioned in this section, I point out that bitch has increasingly referred to men over the years. I wouldn't mind a WP:BITCH essay, but we already have WP:Don't be a jerk. And, by the way, I disliked when WP:Don't be a dick was changed to WP:Don't be a jerk. Also, if anyone thinks that I don't have a problem with these titles because I'm male, that's not it; I'm female.'

@Flyer22: The exact content of the essay (if they read it) is not going to assuage the "what is this sexist crap?!" reaction many women experience when seeing this page title or its shortcut. The #1 criticism of Misplaced Pages in the last 5 years or so has been anti-female bias, both in what our content covers and in our editing community. There's a quite large body of both scholarly papers and media coverage on that issue. In the face of this, and my original points, an I-don't-see-a-big-problem-with-it response isn't much of a rationale; it's WP:ILIKEIT). Same goes for the I-just-disagree approach (the negative form of WP:PERNOM); you have not actually refuted any argument I've made, just registered unclear disagreement with it. The fact that hip hop and teenager slang uses "bitch" or "beeatch" to refer to males sometimes is irrelevant (and misses the point - it's not a gender-neutral term, it's using a female slur to extra-offend a male. That's exactly the case with "diva" to refer to a male, too; it's still female slur. In both cases the vast majority of usage is aimed at women). "Bitch" isn't the title at issue here. The fact that the article is written gender-neural is only marginally relevant, when then issue is mostly reactions to the title itself and resultant impressions of Misplaced Pages, during a media storm of "Misplaced Pages is a cesspool of misogyny". It doesn't really matter that these claims are exaggerated; they're a huge PR problem for the project, the worst it's ever had, and the hardest to fix. Why? Because the only way to even slightly adjust the "sausage party" problem it is to attract a very large number of new female editors. Page names like this only hinder that effort, for absolutely zero gain. I have no problem with crude fucking language, in context. >;-) But I'm glad WP:DICK is now WP:JERK, for a reason that gives yet another rationale for this move: It was nearly impossible to use either WP:DICK or WP:DIVA without pissing off anyone referred to it, simply because of the name, and thereby probably increasing their likelihood of being dickish or diva-ish, when the intent of both essays is to reduce this tendency.
All of this together is way more than enough reason to move this page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  05:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, the WP:Ping didn't work, but there is no need to WP:Ping me to this page; it's been on my WP:Watchlist for about a year. Maybe two years. Anyway, what proof is there that, generally, women will see this essay and state or think "What is this sexist crap?!"? I also saw no such proof regarding the proposal to change WP:Dick to WP:Jerk. And it's not like anyone can't still currently state/link to WP:Dick if they wanted to. As for claims that Misplaced Pages is misogynistic and has few female editors, I know all of that. Some editors know just how well I know all of that. And when it comes to arguing what terms are used to offend and/or oppress women, I've certainly had ample say at Talk:Cunt. But I don't see how changing these essay names is a step toward getting more female editors. I see it as generalizing what women will find offensive. I, for example, do not find them offensive to my sex/gender. Well, if the term diva was used to refer to women as a whole for whatever reason, then that is a different matter for me. If a male or a female editor is being a diva, then that is what that male or female editor is being. And WP:Dick? It can be argued that it should offend males more than females, given that its usage usually refers to males. And, yes, I understand that part of the reason its title was changed is because dick usually refers to males. Misplaced Pages is often a tough place for women, and I've gotten used to that, even by playing hardball right back. These name change matters are things that I do not see doing anything significant for Misplaced Pages (except for some people being less offended by jerk as opposed to dick). But if people want to close that gender gap, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force is the place specifically designed to get more female editors. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Refutation of Doc9871's oppose

'Seems like pandering to a politically correct issue that isn't even really there. Divas are not exclusively female. I don't know a proper equivalent to encompass male divas without stepping on imaginary toes, but "royalty" is not it. All royals are not divas, obviously. I helped write a lot of this article, and none of my RL inspirations were female. WP has notoriously few female editors, as we well know. And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other. Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors. The title should remain as it is.'

Taking these points in order: "Seems like pandering": Already explained why it's not. "not really there": So, none of these articles really exist? etc. "Divas are not exclusively female": Already addressed that in great detail. "I don't know a proper equivalent": OK. Someone might, and probably 50+ viable names can be constructed just from moving words around in the possibilities I brain-dumped below. "Royalty is not it": Sure, it was just one of many ideas. "All royalty are not divas": All divas in the normal sense are not divas in the slang sense, either, and not all behaviors addressed in the guideline are necessarily "diva" behaviors. There's an obvious focus problem here. The label, while funny to some (including me) isn't the important part, the disruptive behaviors are. Keeping the name is not worth the offensiveness level.
I wasn't going to go into this, but I know directly of one long-term, pain-in-the-ass, but actually highly productive, subject-matter expert, female editor who actually did quit the project in part over this template being cited at her (offensive because of its name, not its message); she quit in larger part for various other things that had been bugging her for a long time. It wasn't the last nail in the coffin but it was very close to it, probably the next-to-last. She's exercised WP:Right to vanish, so I'll just call her KvdL.
"I helped write a lot of this article": Great, and good job, but you don't get a supervote at RM. "None of my RL inspirations were female": Already addressed this: It's about reactions, and perception fallout. 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions', as they say. "WP has notoriously few female editors": Yes, that's the whole point! See the external links I just provided. WP has few female editors because of systemic, if low-level and thoughtless, misogyny (or "stuff that is being perceived as misogyny", functionally equivalent for purposes of this discussion; it's not about intentions.) "And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other.": External data strongly suggests otherwise. This one page by itself isn't the source of this problem, but its title is obviously part of it. We do not have to fix every single gender-related problem on WP all at the same time (WP:OTHERCRAP); fixing this one is part of a long process. And size of the essay has no bearing on anything. "Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors": It wont hurt, and it will be part of the ongoing process. That's sufficient. Cf. the Nirvana fallacy; perfection is not required for a move toward improvement to be made. "The title should remain as it is": WP:ILIKEIT.
 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  07:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Perhaps you believe that meticulously dissecting my oppose will somehow a) nullify it, b) make others weigh your "refutation" over my opinion, or c) miraculously make me change my mind. Good luck with all that, and the rename. Doc talk 07:11, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • These are discussions, not votes. A) Did you believe that responding with various points against my move proposal would nullify it? A counter-argument to an argument is intended to counter it, yes. B) I'm not sure who "others" are. If you mean am I trying to skew comments after yours by where I'm commenting, no; I realized the responses were long, so I collapseboxed them; then made a Discussion section and moved them here instead, but you editconflicted me while I was doing that last part. If you mean do I hope later commenters consider my comments and yours and that they find my reasoning more applicable? Of course. If you mean do I hope that the closing admin will find my arguments more compelling? Of course. Why else would I make them, just for typing practice? C) Why would it take a miracle for you to think about multiple sets of arguments, weigh them, and adjust your views accordingly? People do very frequently change their mind in RMs and XfDs. Try it sometime?  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  07:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • The "point-by-point" style you are using is a major turn-off, possibly the most annoying "counter-argument" style possible. I've been here for a long time, and I know how it affects others. Do as you will. But oftentimes: the less you say the better. It's called being "succinct". I doubt you are swaying anyone at all by this tired method of refutation. I've said my piece for now. Doc talk 07:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • It's easier to respond to the arguments by quoting them and replying to them inline than paraphrasing and responding from scratch. It took longer than I wanted to respond to Flyer22, in the latter style, so I switched to the faster style in responding to you. I don't use it frequently, just when I want to get on with it

    You seem to be expecting to be able to make arguments that no one may respond to. I generally don't ignore arguments people make unless they're incomprehensible or off-topic, or I don't actually care about anything but some specific point. I'm sure if feels like "less is more" when it equates to "only one of my points has been challenged, so the other 7 should more strongly affect the outcome". >;-) I agree that the block of text would have been shorter without the quoting. While I like it when people bother to go through discussions before !voting, it usually doesn't happen; I don't expect it. I feel, I think, the same way about extremely brief, only-address-1-out-of-7-arguments responses, as you do about ones that hit 7 of 7. I don't get your meaning with "tired method of refutation"? Do you mean the quoting, the "failure" to ignore most of your points, or that I disagreed with you? The first I get, the other two do not compute. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  09:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  • "I doubt you are swaying anyone at all by this tired method of refutation." What's tiring to read are attacks on the form of an argument (or counter-argument) not the substance. (How's that for being "succinct"?) IHTS (talk) 10:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I see. Your ad hominem invite to go off-topic w/ scrappy catfight isn't another demo of argumentation style? And your adding extensively to the essay's bullet list of qualifiers to permit max application of name-call "diva" ... isn't polemic?! (Got it.) IHTS (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

UTC)

  • See above. And try to refrain from personal attacks, as they apparent can get one blocked. Doc talk|
SMcCandlish, I know which female editor you are talking about (the "KvdL" part gave it away); and since I did not get along with her, I won't comment any further on that in this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
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