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Current disputes

Talk:Unseen character#Rosaline.3F.21_No_way.21_She_doesn.27t_belong_in_this_article.21

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Unseen character#Rosaline.3F.21 No way.21 She doesn.27t belong in this article.21 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• StBlark (talk · contribs)
• 99.192.92.80 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a disagreement about whether or not the character Rosaline from the play Romeo and Juliet should be included as an example of an unseen character on the article page.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third opinion was requested at Misplaced Pages talk:Third opinion and subsequently provided by User:ONUnicorn.

How do you think we can help?

The third opinion offered has not been accepted by one of the editors involved in the original disagreement. An evaluation of the merits of including this example, including looking at the various sources for inclusion offered on the talk page and in the article would be appreciated.

Summary of dispute by StBlark

The question is: Does Rosaline belong? Before that, a basic question needs to be considered: What is an “Unseen character”? The article defines it to include three significant criteria: I.) she must be a “continuing” character. 2.) she must be a character who will “frequently interact” with the others. 3.) She must be a character who will “influence” events.

Rosaline does not meet those three criteria, because (in the same 1-2-3 order): 1.) she is not a “continuing character”: The instant Juliet appears Romeo drops his interest in Rosaline. The script doesn’t even indicate whether or not she attends the party. This is a 5 act play and after the middle of act 2, she is never mentioned again. 2.) she does not “interact” with any character during the play. 3.) She does nothing to influence any events. She doesn’t DO anything during the play. Not one action can be ascribed to her.

WP requires that content be supported by sources: not one has yet been found that suggests that Rosaline meets those 3 criteria. The sources that are suggested support things not in dispute: Romeo’s excuse for going to the party, and the idea that Rosaline doesn’t appear.

If we ignore the defining criteria in the article, then what’s the point of the Misplaced Pages article? As a compromise, I suggest that the line about Rosaline be removed from the article, but then preserved on the Talk Page, and if anyone finds a source that supports her inclusion based on the definition that’s in the article then Rosaline can easily go back in.

(A point of order regarding the “third opinion”: His interest seems to be not in Rosaline alone but in new topics, for which there hasn’t been time to discuss. Also there’s some question about what he means as he says “a third opinion is just a third opinion.” He may want to add new ideas and opinions, or he may mean that his third opinion should be included in the context of dispute resolution. This needs to be discussed. He may be right about rewriting the article, but for our purposes here I think we need to agree to accept the definition in the article as it stands.) Thanks! StBlark (talk) 04:30, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 99.192.92.80

Rosaline from the play Romeo and Juliet has been included on the page as an example for a long time. There are two different reliable sources in the article for its inclusion - one that uses the term "unseen character" to describe her and one that explains how it is because of her that Romeo goes to the party where he first meets Juliet, making her the reason that they meet in the first place. The other editor has disputed the validity of including this example on the page. In the course of the talk page discussion I have quoted the play as a primary source and cited four additional reliable secondary sources for the claim that Romeo and Juliet meet because of Rosaline. That brings the total to seven sources to support inclusion. The other editor rejects these as being sufficient. At that point I requested a third opinion through WP:3. A third editor came and agreed with my position on inclusion. The other editor now does not accept that third opinion. So it stands as two editors with seven reliable sources versus one editor with no reliable sources. 99.192.92.80 (talk) 19:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC) (NB: I have a dynamic IP address and so there are several IP addresses on the talk page that are all me. They all begin with 99.192 and I have taken care to indicate next to the signatures that they are all, in fact, the same person.)

Talk:Unseen character#Rosaline.3F.21_No_way.21_She_doesn.27t_belong_in_this_article.21 discussion

• Volunteer note - I have looked at the talk page, and agree that there has been extensive discussion, as is required before taking up a case here. I am not accepting or declining this case at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Confirming that all parties have been properly notified. Kharkiv07 (T) 00:07, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• While it's been years since I've volunteered here, I'd be happy to take this one on if the other participating editor makes a comment. If I can be pinged if that happens, that'd be great :) Steven Zhang 06:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• OK, I will be opening this discussions shortly. I'm Steve, one of the volunteers here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Thank you for both leaving statements. I have been spending some time reading the talk pages as well as a few other relevant pages. I don't feel I'm at the point that I can weigh in as of yet, and will do so in the morning, but in the interim, I am interested in getting my hands on the source text for thesetwo references. If either of you (or any wandering volunteers) could find those and post links to it, that'd be great, otherwise I'll take a look in the morning. For now, let's just all go have a nice cup of tea. Or a scotch. Whatever's your thing :) Steven Zhang 14:39, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

For the two references you want to review, the first one is here and the second one is here . Relevant also to the criteria for an unseen character that StBlark refers to above is this , which can be viewed here . If you check, you will notice that the page cited does not support the description of unseen (or invisible) characters that the article states. In fact, two pages earlier that same source says "The invisible character may be best defined as a character who, although never shown to the audience, nevertheless influences the action of the play". It looks as thought the description that StBlark is talking about here is inaccurate and not supported by the source the article claims to use for it. 99.192.64.251 (talk) 16:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Let's keep things focused solely on the content and not each other :) I'm just interested in the sources only, so thanks for providing them for me. I'll read them over in the morning and comment further. Cheers. Steven Zhang 16:41, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

My apologies if my comment seemed to be other than directed at the content. I was simply trying to alert you to the fact that there might be an issue here that the article reports criteria for an unseen (or invisible) character that sources offered in the article do not support. If the article does inaccurately portray this source it is certainly no fault of StBlark's, as he did not add the description in question to the article. But if that criteria is inaccurate it could affect the question of whether Rosaline is a worthy inclusion. 99.192.64.251 (talk) 17:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

I have read over a few sections of the article and the Rosaline article - I assume the reference you refer to regarding the third sentence in the article is this one? My assessment of that reference is that the description of an unseen/invisible character given in the reference may fit the particular character mentioned in the passage of text: "Here, it will be seen, the device of the invisible character is absolutely essential to the plot" - I interpret "the plot" as the plot of the story in the referenced material, not the description of unseeen characters as a whole. Page 133 does state "The invisible character may best be defined as a character who, although never shown to the audience, nevertheless influences the action of the play.", and I've read over the talk page with the references provided and the source material linked both on the unseen character page and the Rosaline page, and it is my assessment based on the references provided that Rosaline does meet that criteria for classification as an "unseen/invisible character", especially as Page 133 of the aformentioned source states that they are never shown, but influence the action of the play. Steven Zhang 17:25, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

For whatever it might be worth, I did some checking on the Unseen character page history. When the page was first created in October 2002 it began with the description, "Television situation comedies sometimes include continuing characters who are never seen or heard by the audience, but only described by other characters.". The phrase "continuing characters" has been in the article ever since. By 2006, when the page was a full blown list full of original research the description had evolved to its current form, saying "continuing characters—characters who are currently in frequent interaction with the other characters and who influence current story events". Nothing on the page at that time, including this description, had supporting citations. In subsequent years the "listiness" of the page was eliminated and the examples on it were all required to have proper citations, but the above quoted description still had no citation. Then on November 16, 2014 an editor made an adjustment to the page including adding the current citation for that sentence. So it would seem that this description of what an unseen character is has a long history on the page, but was never more than unsupported original research. 99.192.64.251 (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Apparently this is an open discussion, so I may join in here. Thank you, Steven Zhang, for taking the time and effort to consider this.

Any definition of an “unseen character” seems to indicate a character who is busy or active “behind the scenes” either influencing the plot or interacting — or doing SOMETHING crucial or something essential. Right? I think we can agree. Rosaline is unusual in that she does nothing at all during the whole entire course of the play. Nothing. Which is completely different from the definition of an “Unseen Character” in this article or any other definition you choose. If we want to consider whether or not Rosaline might fit the criteria of one who influences the plot or one who influences the action — we have to be able to name one single action that she takes or does to influence the plot or action. I ask that as an actual question: Can anyone put it into words? I would answer by saying she doesn’t do anything, she’s a kind of non-entity, and that seems to be the point according to more than one source — the point that Romeo isn’t really in love with her, he’s in love with being in love. As Henry David Gray reports in the source text that you requested: Romeo’s “love” for Rosaline is “self-generated” (it comes from Romeo himself)— and isn’t even inspired by Rosaline. And when Romeo meets Juliet — Juliet impresses as a contrast to Rosaline: Juliet is a flesh and blood character who actually does affect the action, and inspires “true love” from Romeo. StBlark (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me remind you that the dispute must be resolved based on reliable sources rather than opinions of wikipedians, especially in case of disagreements. If some sources call Rosalinde "unseen character", then the article must say so: "some critics call her unseen charatcer because..." This is not mathematics. The concepts may be blurred in humanities, and people may have different understanding. Teere is a basic definition, and there are shades some reputable people accept. -M.Altenmann >t 15:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with M.Altenmann. The fact that this article exists suggests that there is something notable or something special about an “Unseen character” that goes above or beyond what is simply a character who is “not seen”. So when when a source mentions that a character is “unseen”, for the purposes of this article it must be clear that the source means to apply the same definition that this article is using. That seems obvious, I hope we all agree, otherwise this would simply be an article about the many characters and townspeople who don’t happen to appear in the play. This is a problem with Rosaline: sources can be found that say that she is “unseen”, but those sources do not always mean what this article is trying to put forward. It also is a problem at the top of the article with the sources that are used to define the term. This article needs to have a very strong definition — and as M.Altenmann has just said — it needs to be clearly sourced.

There are plenty of “unseen characters” in this play that are mentioned or described, like Rosaline, and the daughters of Signor Martino, and Count Anselm, and Vitruvio. And there are some that are mentioned and also affect the plot (like the friar’s donkey). This article needs to lock down it’s own definition, or else it will be at the mercy of whatever Misplaced Pages editor holds the strongest opinions (whether they are right or not), and is the most insistant, and most enjoys the “back and forth” of dipute resolution pages like this one.

On another topic, I want to point out that earlier I asked if anyone was able to name one single action that Rosaline does during the play to influence the plot or action. And no one has been able to do that in this discussion so far. There are notable productions, (David Garrick, Theo Cibber, Franco Zeferelli’s movie) that have removed references to Rosaline from the play. I may not agree with that kind of editing, but to me it says something about how essential Rosaline is.

If you think of a playwright who might come to this page hoping to get an idea, this article is fairly thin in describing the idea, so the examples are important, and if we offer him a passive non-character like Rosaline … that will be misleading. StBlark (talk) 16:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a another character in the play, Romeo and Juliet, who actually has a responsibility for the death of both Romeo and Juliet. He’s mentioned, but he doesn’t appear. So, in other words — he’s an “unseen character” whose actions contribute to cause them both to die! This man is one of a small group who are described as Mantuans, searchers, and fearful. He’s never seen, and he’s capable of strong, bold action. During the course of the play, he and his cohorts do something so dramatic and awful, that when the audience learns of what he has done (Act V, scene ii) and the consequences, they sometimes gasp in horror — because what he does turns out to be literally tragic. If any “unseen character” is to be considered as one who significantly alters the plot or the action of the play, it should be him before Rosaline.

In contrast, Rosaline’s aspects (according to the play) are: She’s fair, she’s got an uncle, she’s not the prettiest, she has bright eyes, a high forehead, red lips, a nice foot, and a thigh that quivers. And before the play begins, she has been making Romeo sit around and mope, because she’s not that into him. Her actions during the course of the play are never mentioned. And she’s not well sourced in the way that M.Altenmann is talking about in the comment above mine. StBlark (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

At this point I mainly have a question about the procedure here. The reason for coming to this noticeboard was that StBlark and I could not come to an agreement about whether Rosaline should be included, so I am not sure if it is helpful for the two of us to be the primary contributors to this discussion, especially since Steven Zhang has indicated he would be taking this case and he has already offered an opinion on it. I do have a number of things to say in reply to StBlark's comments, but I would rather wait for further information about whether it is appropriate to offer them at this time.

I also note that so far I, ONUnicorn (as the third opinion on the Unseen character talk page), Steven Zhang (above) and Altenmann (above) have all expressed support for inclusion and only StBlark has expressed an opposing view. I do understand that consensus is not merely a matter of majority opinion, but that opinion is split 4-1 right now seems of some significance when deciding what to do. 99.192.84.88 (talk) 21:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

The moderator, Steven Zhang, invited discussion, and hasn’t made any final statement, I think that we can all carry on in good faith, respecting the process, as we are doing, and hope that if we participate in the discussion here what we say might be considered. Our moderator seemed to indicate that he was inclined to base his decision on a particular source, and I would like to point out that that source is a 20th Century English language essay, which is based on the author’s ideas regarding French plays from the 18th Century; to use that essay as an authority for 16th century plays seems not at all appropriate. The author of that essay, “Some Marginal Notes on Eighteenth Century French Comedy”, gives no indication that what he was saying had anything what-so-ever to do with Elizabethan plays, let alone any particular character. If he were to do a study on Elizabethan plays he would certainly come up with completely different ideas. He certainly does not claim that Rosaline is an “invisible character”, and no reliable source claims that she does anything to affect the plot or the story. Part of the point that M.Altenmann is making (above in the comments) is to urge editors to be careful to be accurate in using reliable sources. What we do in Misplaced Pages is important, every one uses it, and WP effects how directors direct plays and how people think about theatre. I think we have try to make Misplaced Pages the best it can be. StBlark (talk) 03:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I will be commenting further in the morning when I have access to a computer. Please refrain from discussing further till then.Steven Zhang 10:52, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Briefly, I believe I have made my perspective clear in my comment above, but let me clarify. As Wikipedians, it's our role to report on what reliable sources say about a subject, and not necessarily to argue or debate over the content of said reliable sources. As mentioned above, reliable sources have defined Rosaline as an unseen character, and from the analysis further provided about the character and the source provided in the article as the definition of an unseen character, she does seem to fit the description. While dispute resolution is not a vote by any means, we do have two editors and two independent volunteers which see the same perspective on a matter. I'll ask another DRN volunteer to comment here as well to give their input, just to get a second pair of eyes on this to ensure the perspective is universal and I haven't missed anything. Please do wait until the other volunteer comments before discussing further, as I believe everyone involved has given a thorough explanation as to their point of view and how you have come to those conclusions. Thanks. Steven Zhang 22:25, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Steven for your clarification on the process here. I haven't been through DNR before so I am still learning how it works. 99.192.76.198 (talk) 12:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Volunteer Notice: I've marked this case as stale. There has been no activity for 5 days. User:Steven Zhang is this case underway or would you like to close it?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Keithbob, I'd like to keep it open. I've discussed this thread with another volunteer offline who's given me his opinion. As 99.192 notes, the article itself has a bit of history on the definition of an unseen character. Are we sure the definition we have of this is correct? Looking at the article, there are two references supporting the definition - I'm sure there's more than that out there. At one point the page apparantely had the definition of continuing character instead - I think before we decide whether or not Rosaline fits the definition, we must understand what the definition first is, and what references support that. Steven Zhang 22:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Steve, I agree with your point. The only two references in the article that give any kind of definition for “Unseen Character” are both strictily regarding literature and theatre in18th Century France. And having done an extensive search, I have found nothing beyond that (that defines the phrase as a concept). Except for one playwright who gets a bit of discussion that applies to her work in particular. So, as a concept or “trope” or “thing” it seems there is not much at all out there. The other route is just to use the dictionary definition for each word “unseen” and “character”, and then there are few if any criteria and the doors are open to any character that isn’t seen (who would be notable enough to be in Misplaced Pages). In fact, the only reference to Rosaline that refers to her as unseen is a passing reference (that the lyrics to a song reminds somebody of her) so that it must be assumed that the person quoted is using simply the dictionary definition. It seems to me that if this article gets too narrow and particular about insisting on what they were doing in France in the 18th Century — that could rule out so many. In other words, I think it might have to be simply about characters that are not seen — according to Wester’s dictionary. Then the characters that are offered as examples would need to be supported with a reference to the fact that they don’t appear. StBlark (talk) 01:45, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting idea. I think if we went with a straight dictionary definition as the criteria for inclusion, you may end up with a massively long silly page that looks like this one. I would expect inclusion in the page would require them to be defined by a source as an "unseen character", possibly being notable enough to have an article in their own right, but I think it's worth discussion. There must be more than two references which describes the concept (for example, this could be a starting point. Steven Zhang 02:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Steven, I share your concern about the lack of strong sourcing for the definition of the concept of the "unseen character". I do, however, think that in the history of the theatre, in particular, the use of unseen characters has a history that is well enough documented and discussed that we should not need to resort to just the dictionary definitions of the two words separately. The use of unseen characters by playwrights like Eugene O'Neill ("Unseen Characters in the Dramaturgy of Eugene O’Neill" by Robert E. Byrd) and Tennessee Williams ("The Critical Role of Alan Grey, the Unseen Character in Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire" by Peter A. Phillips) and more generally ("The Presence of Absence: Catalytic and Omnipresent Offstage Characters in Modern American Drama" By Safi Mahmoud Mahfouz) can be found through simple searches. I would hope that some clear definition that is based in scholarly study could be sourced for the page.

As for the specific case of the example of Rosaline, there does seem to be enough scholarly sources to support her inclusion as she clearly is discussed as an unseen character or consequence in the literature. In addition to all the sources I have already provided, here is one more that would seem to be as clear as anyone could ask for about this case:

"Among unseen characters figuring in the plot of the tragedies undoubtedly Rosaline in Romeo and Juliet is the most significant. It is seeing his beloved's name on the guest list for the Capulet ball that causes Romeo to go (masked, of course) to this party, hoping to catch a glimpse of Rosaline. Instead, he catches a glimpse of Juliet. Rosaline is thus the instrument of fate in bringing together the 'pair of star-crossed lovers' and therefore an important plot element." (From "The Reality of Shakspere's 'Supers'" by William Bryan Gates The Shakespeare Association Bulletin Vol. 20, No. 4 October, 1945, p.170)

So whatever work needs to be done about the details of the definition of an "unseen character" and the sourcing of that, surely Rosaline is one. 99.192.69.84 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

ADDENDUM: The Eugene O'Neill article I mentioned above has some words that could help with the general description of the "unseen character". It begins like this: "Scholars are just beginning to discern what happened a hundred years ago, when dramatic artists struggled to find new forms for a view of life that, for good or ill, was replacing nineteenth-century optimism. Playwrights of that time, restlessly experimenting, discovered new techniques and new uses for old techniques. In the latter category was the unseen character: the character, living or dead, who is never seen but who nonetheless causes onstage reactions and can even become a presence-in-absence. Strindberg, Ibsen, and especially Chekhov developed this device in the European theatre. In America, the first major writer to vigorously explore and use the unseen character was Eugene O’Neill." So this author both confirms that the "unseen character" is an old technique in theater and also provides some sort of general definition for it. 99.192.69.84 (talk) 07:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

One problem with the sources quoted above, they seem to use the phrase “unseen character” with the simple general dictionary meaning — which is fine. Then they go on to find interesting particularities that apply to the way a certain source uses the general idea. That’s fine also. BUT — if you take each particularity that was only intended for a specific character and try to use it as criteria for the general definition of “Unseen Character”, you could encumber the definition with so many restricting ideas that it won’t apply to any one character at all. Plus you would be giving a twist to what the sources were originally saying, resulting with a meaning that the source didn’t intend.

For example, in the above quote about Rosaline the source says she is “the instrument of fate” and “an important plot element”. But would it be right or accurate to suggest that the author meant that an “unseen character” must be those two things? I don’t think so.

That’s also a problem with the above O’Neill quote which is describing a use of UC in a specfic era — not as a general definition meant to include Rosaline, for example.

Steven, this is also a problem with the search page you offered as a starting point — I’ve been going through the examples on that page.

I think that there are specific concepts or tropes for “unseen character”. One occurred in French comedies in the 18th Century, another occurs in TV comedies. But if we need a source that will define it so that the concept will also include “Waiting for Godot” and Shakespeare plays — no one has come up with it yet. And it may be that the idea is under-studied.

One solution might be to have the lead in the article be a simple dictionary definition of the phrase, and then follow the lead with sections, like: 18th Century France, Television, Shakespeare … etc. StBlark (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

"a problem with the above O’Neill quote which is describing a use of UC in a specfic era — not as a general definition meant to include Rosaline, for example." This is not true. The passage describes the "unseen character" as an "old technique" that was around long before the playwrights of a hundred years ago found "new uses" for it. The article then goes on to give a thoroughly general definition. Nothing about that definition says that it only applies to a limited range of cases. You made the same error about the Green source, claiming that the definition provided there was limited to the context of French 18th century plays. But nothing in that text says that the definition of "unseen character" is limited to that country or period. The application of the term is limited to examples in French 18th century plays, but the definition is not.

You seem to keep trying to discount the significance all the sources that say the same thing about what an unseen character is and that Rosaline is one. But you also ignore the Gates source quoted at length that refers to Rosaline not only as an "unseen character" but as the most significant unseen character in all of the tragedies. The source is very clear. She not only is an unseen character, she is perhaps the best example of one that there is. 99.192.70.187 (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Thanks 99.192, I appreciate that we’re both interested in this topic. To respond to your three points: the only thing that applies to Rosaline in your first example is that the source says that UC is an “old technique”. That can’t be considered a definition that is meant to include both Rosaline and Godot, for example. Second, there is indeed an indication that the Green reference is limited to the context of French 18th century plays — the title of the essay. You can’t assume that what Green meant might also apply all eras, countries andl forms if he doesn’t say so. Third, if Gates says Rosaline is an "unseen character" and a “most significant” one, it doesn’t suggest that he means that all “unseen characters” must be “most significant”. StBlark (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's park this conversation for 6 hours (2am here). I'll comment in the morning. Steven Zhang 16:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

(Edit conflict - I already wrote all this, so I'll post it as my last comment before joining you in that break)

To respond to your three points: "That can’t be considered a definition that is meant to include both Rosaline and Godot, for example." Well, it cannot be referring to Godot since Waiting For Godot (1953) was not yet written when that article was published (1945), but why not Shakespeare? The author is saying the technique us using unseen characters has been around a long long time. It seems odd to insist that a specific list of all the plays or eras and nationalities be given for us to know he means Shakespeare is included. Shakespeare is, after all the most famous playwright in the history of theater, so it seems odd to think his inclusion is not intended.

"Second, there is indeed an indication that the Green reference is limited to the context of French 18th century plays — the title of the essay." No. The title tells you that French 18th century plays are what the article is about, but not that all terms used are limited to a specific meaning for only that time and place. To assume that "unseen character" has meaning only in a context of a particular time and place is not supported unless you can find a text that says that it is an ever changing term. But to take another example I referenced, "The Presence of Absence: Catalytic and Omnipresent Offstage Characters in Modern American Drama" by Safi Mahmoud Mahfouz, The title seems to suggest that only Modern American plays are being discussed, yet the author (who uses the terms "unseen character" and "offstage character" interchangeably writes:

"Offstage characters do not represent a new dramatic technique. Characters who are denied a stage presence and are kept in the wings, but nonetheless have a strong backstage presence, have been used by influential playwrights since early theatrical performances. Offstage characters were used in early Greek drama as catalysts for action. Although king Laius in Sophoeles's Oedipus Rex and Jason's bride in Euripides's Medea remain offstage throughout the two plays, such characters contribute a lot to the development of the plot and serve as catalysts for action in the two plays respectively. In Renaissance drama Shakespeare incorporated Rosaline, the offstage figure, into Romeo and Juliet to serve as a foil to Juliet and to stress the predicament of the two lovers. However, it was Strindberg, Ibsen, and Chekhov who excelled in using absence as a theatrical device and weaving it into the fabric of their drama.

As with Green, a reference to the historical use is made. But in this case you get the list you want, one that includes Sophoeles, Shakespeare, Strindberg, Ibsen, and Chekhov. And there is no suggestion that the what counts as an unseen or offstage character is an ever shifting one that doesn't mean the same thing from country to country and century to century.

"it doesn’t suggest that he means that all “unseen characters” must be “most significant”." This doesn't make sense. You are misreading the source. He is not saying that Rosaline is the most significant character in the play. He is saying that of all the unseen characters in the tragedies, Rosaline is the most significant example of an unseen character. In other words, among all the unseen characters you could choose from, if you want to list examples of unseen characters, she is the best one to pick. 99.192.70.187 (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Section break

• Hi all. I think we come back to the point about us stating what references state, rather than our interpretation. The lede of the article or the top of the "examples" section" could have something along the lines of "X a claim/state/give Rosaline in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet as an unseen character, as she is never seen, but is only described." Or go with something similar. This can sometimes be a reasonable compromise. By doing this, we aren't making assumptions, but stating what sources say. We don't say "Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist", we say "Osama Bin Laden has been described by xyz sources as a terrorist". Make sense? Steven Zhang 22:18, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me. The Gates source describes Rosaline as "the most significant" example of an unseen character in Shakespeare's tragedies, so the article can include a quotation of that description beside her entry. I also think a revised definition of the term can be carved out of some of the passages I have quoted here already. But thats a job for later. Thanks again for your help Steven.. 99.192.82.160 (talk) 00:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Hi Steven, just so I’m clear about your suggestion: Your suggestion is that if a source says that a certain character is “unseen”, that’s good enough to include the example in this article. That way editors don’t need to interpret the source — they simply rely on the fact that the word “unseen” is used by the source. If I understand you correctly: this would simplify things, and It would also remove from consideration all other criteria. So, therefore each and every “unseen character” does not need to be defined as: a “device” or a “trope” or as a character who “interacts off stage” or as a character who is “significant” or “impacts the plot” — or anythng else — but simply as a character who is “unseen”. I believe that represents what you’re saying?

Your suggestion would be such a simple definition that, it seems to me, it would be bascially the dictionary definition the word “unseen”. Please let me know if I’m correct about this, Steven.

As the article stands now there is no reliable source that is so simple and comprehensive, that it will support your suggestion. But if we add references to Webster’s Dictionary or the Oxford English Dictionary, and allow the dictionary to define the “unseen character”, and then move the reference to the French theatre down to another section or paragraph — that would be simple and comprehensive, and that might be a solution.

Steven, you were concerned about relying on the dictionary, but as it stands now the primary problem with this article is: defining an “unseen character” using reliable sources to do that. To answer the question: What is this article about? It seems to me it is essential to solve that problem first, which is what your suggestion seems to be addressing. Then the question of individual examples would follow and would be simpler. StBlark (talk) 05:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The scholarly sources that deal specifically with the device of the unseen character that have already been quoted in this discussion give us something that is both better than a generic dictionary definition of "unseen" and better than what the article previously had. From Green we get "The invisible character may best be defined as a character who, although never shown to the audience, nevertheless influences the action of the play", from Byrd we get "the unseen character: the character, living or dead, who is never seen but who nonetheless causes onstage reactions and can even become a presence-in-absence", and from Mahfouz we get "characters who are denied a stage presence and are kept in the wings, but nonetheless have a strong backstage presence". Gates only gives us "characters who are described but who never appear in the action" as a definition, but his entire article is about the various ways that such characters can be used and variety of significant functions they can have. He says many "have a distinct personality of their own, and some serve definite dramatic functions." The ones he discusses at length (including Rosaline) are ones he describes as "those that aid in the characterization of an active participant; those that help to make a situation more vivid; and those that figure in the antecedent action or the plot." That seems like a pretty good start on specific descriptions from scholarly sources. 99.192.48.97 (talk) 12:46, 15 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Our moderator has made a suggestion that should be considered. I asked him a question to clarify his suggestion, and I’d like to give him a chance to respond, not to ignore other suggestions, but in order to understand what he’s suggesting before proceeding with new discussions that his idea may impact. StBlark (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I think we should try and change it to something we can all live with, but I disagree a straight dictionary definition is the way to go here, though we do need something in the article title to describe the concept of an unseen character. If we have sources that describe the concept (which we do, as per 99.192), I would suggest we use those as the basis for the definition in the article title. For inclusions on the list however, we go with citing reliable sources that describe the inclusions as unseen/invisible characters - because it's the reliable sources role to interpret the part characters play in the respective works and determine if they fit the definition, and not ours. I'll work on a proposed article lede today and post here for commentary, but I'm feeling this is pretty clear cut now that I read over the discussion and think it over. Steven Zhang 22:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Also, regarding examples, it is worth noting some of the page history. For a long time the page was treated as a list where everyone would add their favourite examples. Almost none of it was properly sourced either. Then in 2008 there was a proposal to delete the page - See here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Unseen character (3rd nomination). The result was "Keep but keep the list to the absolute minimum (or preferably incorporate it into the text) and expand the discussion of the use of unseen characters as a plot device and so on." The examples listed were massively reduced and generally agreed upon and since then the examples have been kept limited and all of the examples were checked for reliable sources. So at this time I don't think there is much of a concern about what does and does not count as an example for the page. The ones there have sources and additional examples are not needed. But the description of "unseen character" in the lead still would be better if revised. 99.192.93.167 (talk) 16:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

With all due respect for IP 99.192, I strongly dispute claims that he makes immediately above: 1.) The claim that all of the examples in the article as it stands now are supported by reliable sources is not true, as can be demonstrated by the missing footnotes. 2.) The suggestion that the examples that now exist in the article are all good is not true — there are examples that are very bad and clearly disputable. For example the radio characters (?) used in the example of the “Archers” have spoken lines and are voiced by actors (one example is famously voiced by Judi Dench) How can a radio character be considered “unseen” when it has lines, it speaks and an actor gives it voice? This is an example of a kind of sloppy foolishness caused by various editors in the past that has plagued this article. 3.) The idea that there is general support for the examples is also false — a look at the edit history of this article shows endless and constant disputes, often because certain editors are fond of interpreting the life out of sources and examples. 4.) It is premature for us now to be insisting on particular examples until the lead is re-written. It’s getting the cart before the horse. The best way to avoid disputes is to try to deal with the lead and the definition, as is currently being considered. StBlark (talk) 18:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

(1) re: sourcing. StBlark is correct. I skimmed too quickly and missed that Godot, the scorers from I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue, and Ozzie from The Clitheroe Kid are not sourced entries. I have no objection to their removal should we not be able to adequately source them. The other eleven examples, however, already pass the sourcing test. (2) The objection to the The Archers entry is wrong. The entry and supporting source says that there are "a number" of unseen (unheard) characters. That one of them ceased to be an unseen character when Judi Dench voiced her does not mean there are not still others who remain silent. (3) I claimed that the examples that were put in the article when it was massively rewroked were generally agreed to then. This is true. That people keep trying to add Vera Peterson, Sheridan Bucket, and Mrs. Wolfowitz to the page is not really significant given that they are not unseen characters. But most importantly we do agree that then next order of business is the description of the term. I will wait to see what Steven comes up with as a proposal for one before commenting further on that. 99.192.93.167 (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

To correct what IP 99.129 has said immediately above: I’m not mistaken regarding the source for the obscure “Archers” radio program example: That source mentions characters who it says are in fact voiced by actors, including Judi Dench who has been the voice of her character since 1989, and the milkman who has a thick accent, and the barman who is voiced by Scott Arthur. The source isn’t clear whether or not some characters speak seldomly or rarely or never. It’s a bad example that invites dispute and requires interpretation. It also refers to characters who appear “on stage” and are seen by other characters. And the idea that a radio character is “unseen” -- they're on radio so ALL characters are "unseen" -- has been disputed by other editors. It is also not true (as stated above) that all of the other sources are fine and all of the examples are supported by reliable sources. I’ll give you one example: The Source for “Will and Grace” has a problem. There are more. Rather than making a series of inaccurate ill-considered proclamations out of a desire to argue for the fun of it — editors should be more careful to be accurate. This article is a mess and needs work. And (again) it is premature to be proclaiming about the examples in this way — not until a proper lead section exists. StBlark (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Supercarrier

– New discussion.

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Supercarrier (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jaaron95 (talk · contribs)
• Nick Thorne (talk · contribs)
• Antiochus the Great (talk · contribs)
• M.srihari (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Previously in the article there was a content dispute of adding 'Proposed Supercarriers' for which a RfC is currently under progress.. Now the dispute is about 'adding the correct definition of a supercarrier '.. The article in the first line states that a supercarrier is the one which displaces over 70,000 short tons, and two other editors disputed the line and the source stating that it's an 'old' definition and current supercarriers are approximately the size of a Nimitz class carrier or the carriers which are stated as 'supercarriers' in multiple reliable sources (really?). Well, I agree on the first statement, but how reliable sources define a supercarrier? Isn't it original research? But what bothers me the most is that, the editor, Nick Thorne won't let me change the content which well suites the current definition, stating that it is an original research. Also the editor doesn't want me to add even an inline 'disputed' template after the definition. This is not only of concern to the article but also highly misleads the readers (being in the first line of the lead), as I can find every other website using the definition of supercarrier from the Misplaced Pages article. I'm loosing my WP:BOLD. On a lighter note, this type of behavior is not only sad but is also highly discouraging my future contributions here.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Added a 'disputed' tag here and tried to change the content here. There is a discussion in the article's talk page here.

How do you think we can help?

By indicating what's the correct definition of a supercarrier and why it should be replace the existing definition in the lead section of the article. Withdrawn by complainant --JAaron95 (Talk) 04:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Nick Thorne

It is not up to editors to define anything. We follow the sources. So far as Supercarriers are concerned, we can only call a particular ship a supercarrier if the sources do, regardless of what we think is the definition of one.

We seem to have two editors here, including the OP who do not seem to understand this basic principleand who want to make edits that ate in fact either OR or synthesis. The latest edits were made by the OP and I reverted them. I made a post on the talk page explaining my reversion but the OP has not responded.

The discussion linked to above was several days old when the edits occurred that seem to have prompted this report. The OP had not discussed this matter on the talk page since those edits.

Consequently, I believe that this case should not be accepted. - Nick Thorne 12:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Antiochus the Great

Summary of dispute by M.srihari

The first ship to be described by The New York Times as a supercarrier was HMS Ark Royal in 1938, with a length of 685 feet (209 m) and a displacement of 22,000 tons, designed to carry 72 aircraft.

If Nick thorne's arguments seems to be correct, then this is a "Decommissioned supercarrier"(really?). And the following URL states something about a "heavy aircraft carrier" which is about 90,000 tons. http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/05/russia-trying-to-sell-100000-ton-heavy.html. Since it is not referred as supercarrier in the Russian media, Should we exclude it? (As we should follow the 'source') That is why I think it is necessary to have a proper definition of what is a supercarrier because this term is often misleading as this is mostly used by media (source) and most of them believe in their own view or information in encyclopedia (like wikipedia).M.srihari (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Srihari

References

1. "Reich's Cruise Ships Held Potential Plane Carriers". The New York Times. 1 May 1938. p. 32. Retrieved 17 May 2015. (subscription required)
2. "The Ark Royal Launched. Most Up-To-Date Carrier. Aircraft In The Fleet". The Times. 14 April 1937. p. 11.
3. Rossiter, Mike (2007) . Ark Royal: the life, death and rediscovery of the legendary Second World War aircraft carrier (2nd ed.). London: Corgi Books. pp. 48–51. ISBN 978-0-552-15369-0. OCLC 81453068.

Supercarrier discussion

Volunteer's note: I am neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but only noting the following administrative matters: discussion (if a few days old) and notice appear to be adequate and the RFC pending at the article page does not, indeed, appear to include this issue. We're waiting for summaries from the other participants before proceeding further. If the issues raised by Nick Thorne are correct, and I'm not suggesting by that reference that they are or are not, they will be considered in the proceedings here. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - Editor M.srihari has been blocked for two weeks for edit-warring on the article in question. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Wanderer of the Wasteland (1945 film)#Incorrect terminology needs correction.

The editors could not agree on the description of the technology for the earlier version but will on an RFC. Closing. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:13, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Kashmir conflict

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Kashmir conflict (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Human3015 (talk · contribs)
• CosmicEmperor (talk · contribs)
• Faizan (talk · contribs)
• 39.47.50.14 (talk · contribs)
• 115.186.146.225 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

At issue is the last paragraph of the lead, which covers the 2014 elections. Two versions can be seen in this diff. The older version is preferred by Faizan and the IPs involved. The newer (condensed) version, I believe, is at the right level of detail appropriate for a lead. This has been termed "bowdlerizing" by Faizan. He and the IPs seem to want to retain a direct quote of the Chief Minister, and they would also prefer to eliminate the acknowledgement by the EU that the elections were "free and fair" and that the election turnout was highest in 25 years. Human3015 and CosmicEmperor at the other end do not want any mention of the separatists and Pakistan at all.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

At my request for intervention, the page has been semi-protected because the IPs were edit-warring. A talk page discussion ensued at Talk:Kashmir conflict#Election 2014, which has failed to reach agreement.

How do you think we can help?

Please tell us what is appropriate for the lead.

Summary of dispute by Human3015

• IPs want that remarks of EU regarding Kashmir election should be removed and only personal opinion of Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed should be included. Statement of Mufti giving credit to Pakistan for elections is his personal statement and not official statement of Government of Jammu and Kashmir. The coalition government in J & K also includes Bharatiya Janata Party which condemned this statement. Means the government which he lead itself don't support his statement, and neither his statement is supported by any other independent group or organization.
• While statement by EU giving credit to India for free and fair elections in Jammu and Kashmir is really mentionable thing. Read sources in article lead, it is not any employee of EU who congratulated India, it is European Parliament who congratulated India, that parliament consists of official representatives of 27 European nations. Involved IPs want to delete statement by parliament of 27 nations and want to keep random politically motivated statement by local leader which is not even supported by his own government.
• Controversial leaders from India and Pakistan gives controversial statements regarding Kashmir issue on daily basis, but European Parliament don't congratulate anyone on daily basis.

Summary of dispute by CosmicEmperor

The statements are added to Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, 2014 but can't be added to Kashmir conflict. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be concise. We are not going to mention every minute detail about a topic. A statement by a present Chief Minister, made at a time, when she was not elected as a chief minister of JK, is too trivial to be added to that page.A statement by present Chief Minister when she was not elected as chief minister (Clearing doubts about He/She).

Summary of dispute by Faizan

@Kautilya3 Please do not associate me with those IPs. I support your bowdlerized version, as it correctly summarizes the text that is to be put in the lead. I don't want the full direct quotes. I don't want the removal of EU's report about the elections terming them free and fair? How did you get to this conclusion? In short, I even made a minor change after your edit, and I support this version. Faizan (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 39.47.50.14

Kautilya3's description of dispute is in itself disputed please Refer talk page discussion on the basis of which in my humble opinion a reliably sourced (The Hindu & Times of India), neutral, brisk for lead, avoiding copyright and most importantly in a logical sequence para should be read as. “In election 2014 voter turnout was 50%, which was lowest as compare to 34 other Indian states however it was better than 40% recorded in 2009 for which elected Chief Minister gave separatist and Pakistan credit for not disturbing this round of elections.”

No one objected to free or fairness of election so it is not important here. 27 member country EU statement should be on election article as well as 57 member country OIC's post election declaration for inalienable right to self-determination of kashmiris and Pakistan & china foreign ministry releases post election. Human3015 said Mufti statement is political but are we here to judge whether any ones statement was political or scientific? sorry to say but CosmicEmperor is so non knowledgeable to this article's background that he/she is using "she" for "male" Cheif minister Mufti Muhammad Sayeed. I think 115.186.146.225 thanked NeilN for his warning for edits hinting at offwiki collaboration, unintentional or otherwise keeping in view https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Human3015#Those_users ; after reading that plus all indo pak & kashmir relevant Wiki articles edit history; Apparently Kautilya3 Human3015 and CosmicEmperor are doing so and are providing each other back up to avoid 3 revert rule of edit warring. i leave this investigation on you. 39.47.50.14 (talk) 12:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 115.186.146.225

I will also put this para as mentioned by IP 39.... ""In lok sabha election 2014 voter turnout was 50%, which was lowest as compare to 34 other Indian states. In state election 2014 turnout was 65% for which elected Chief Minister gave separatist and Pakistan credit for not disturbing this round of elections."

Thank you IP 39... for such an effective advocacy mentioning my concern for offwiki collaboration of Kautilya3 Human3015 and CosmicEmperor. In fact Dispute is larger then this para we are fighting against few national hatred editors collaborating with their watch list full of indo pak articles as referred by you on talkpage "1. Whenever some one edit with pro kashmiri/pakistani insertion. One editor from this group deletes that with comments "Unsourced" 2. If he provides source then one of editor from this group deletes that with comments "Not a reliable source" 3. If he provides reliable source then one of editor from group deletes that with comments "Not a Newspaper" 4. If he re-edits to comply with WP not a news paper then one editor from this group deletes that with comments "No Concensus take to talk page" 5. In the mean while on the basis of three revert rule this group make that article protected. 6. If he tries talk page consensus this group editors converge and deny consensus and say original research. 7. Then they provoke that person in to heat of the moment and get him banned and then prove any new editor as socks of already banned users on same articles. In reality this group by themselves is a large sick nationalist socko master. 8. In the end they laugh on banned user like this https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Human3015#Those_users . RIP wikipedia neutrality.

I Hope strongly that this time administrators do not finish this dispute by declaring us socks of some blocked sick pakistani nationalist editor. We are only providing indian sources and indians own comments in support of our para. Nationalist from whichever country should be banned to set an example in a way that no one can misuse rules to gain undue advantage. Kindly https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions should be utilized to maximum effect to remove this curse keeping in view these editors contributions log and articles history on Indo-Pakistani_wars_and_conflicts Jammu_and_Kashmir Kashmir_conflict Gilgit-Baltistan Azad_Kashmir and so on. 115.186.146.225 (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

References

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Amazonas-class_corvette
2. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/Highest-ever-voter-turnout-recorded-in-2014-polls-govt-spending-doubled-since-2009/articleshow/35033135.cms
3. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/mehbooba-defends-muftis-remarks-on-pakistan/article6951674.ece

Kashmir conflict discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been extensive discussion at the talk page, so that the issue is ripe for dispute resolution. A question for the coordinator is whether, in view of the number of participants and the nature of the topic, which lends itself to battleground editing because it is a real battleground, this board is the best venue, or whether formal mediation might be better. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
• Also, there is a thread at WP:ANI concerning the issues at this article. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Hello, I am Steve. I have collapsed the above discussion and will not be addressing it's contents as I do not feel it will be productive. I will be personally handling this case. I will be reading over the article in question and the associated talk page today. Until I comment further here, I ask that there is no further discussion on the topic - I understand you all may have different points of view here, my role is to help you all come to a conclusion that you can all live with. More to follow soon - in the interim, go have some tea, or something :) Steven Zhang 22:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Steven Zhang I was late. Please do consider my comments on dispute in my allocated space before making any decision. 115.186.146.225 (talk) 06:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I think now main issue is between auto-confirmed users and IPs, as per my perception no involved confirmed user have any issues relating to current version of lead which seems neutral.(In addition page has 203 watchers who didn't objected yet). So only two IPs have some issues relating to it, and till now those IPs not given any valid reason for their proposed changes which seems biased. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 19:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Human3015 you should respect what Steve ordered us above to stop any further non productive arguments. You are not here to decide what is valid or not it is steve. This is beauty of WP that it gives all of us a chance to appeal irrespective how senior or junior, registered or non registered, 5 against 1 or 5 against 5 editors. Whatever he will decide i shall accept it by heart and request you all to respect his authority. 115.186.146.225 (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• OK, a few things. IP editor or admin, your opinions matter equally. I don't buy the "only IP's disagree therefore their argument is inherently invalid" idea. Arguments have to be weighed on their merits. Additionally, it's not my role to "decide" on anything, but to guide and facilitate discussion to help form a consensus that you can, in most cases, live with, but most importantly, that fits within Misplaced Pages policy. Now, a brief request. It appears there are two proposed article ledes here. Without any additional commentary, can a diff (link in the article history to the version of the article) to the alternatively proposed article lede be posted here for me to review (assuming that the current article lede is the second and current version). Thanks. Steven Zhang 22:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  @Steven Zhang:, I gave a link to the diff in my original dispute summary: . If we can first discuss the pro's and con's of the two versions here, that would be a start. We can get to the other variants if need be. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Current lead as supported by group users is this "However, elections held in 2014 saw highest voter turnout in the last 25 years. European Union has called the elections "free and fair" and took cognizance of the fact that a large number of Kashmiri voters turned out despite calls for boycott by separatist groups.The elected Chief Minister Mufti Muhammad Sayeed has remarked that the separatists and militants supported by Pakistan did not attempt to disrupt the voting in this round of elections.While former chief minister Ghulam Nabi Azad said Pakistan and militants have tried their best to destabilise the democratic process in Jammu and Kashmir"

• Proposed lead by both IPs is this "In lok sabha election 2014 voter turnout was 50%, which was lowest as compare to 34 other Indian states. In state election 2014 turnout was 65% for which elected Chief Minister gave separatist and Pakistan credit for not disturbing this round of elections." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.146.225 (talk) 05:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• • IP has given current version and their proposed version. Following is pre-dispute original version.

• "However, elections held in 2014 saw highest voters turnout in 25 years of history in Kashmir. European Union also welcomed elections, called it "free and fair" and congratulated India for its democratic system. The European Parliament also takes cognizance of the fact that a large number of Kashmiri voters turned out despite calls for the boycott of elections by certain separatist forces."Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 08:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

References

1. "J & K records historic polling percentage: EC". The Hindu. 20 December 2014.
2. "Jammu and Kashmir registers highest voter turnout in 25 years, Jharkhand breaks records". Deccan Chronicle. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
3. "J&K polls: 76 per cent voter turnout recorded in the final phase". IBNLive. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
4. "Jammu and Kashmir Registers Highest Voter Turnout in 25 Years, Jharkhand Breaks Records". NDTV.com. 20 December 2014. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
5. ^ ANI (11 December 2014). "European Parliament welcomes elections in Jammu and Kashmir". Business Standard. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
6. The Office of MEP Kosma Zlotowski (10 December 2014). "The European Parliament Welcomes the Elections in Jammu & Kashmir". PR Newswire. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
7. "EU hails huge turnout in J&K". Jammu Kashmir Latest News - Tourism - Breaking News J&K. Daily Excelsior. Retrieved 10 April 2015.

All three versions are referenced but for sake of ease to read and compare; I have removed references from oldest version added by Human3015; and bared it all in three comparative paras; It was not pre dispute version. It was version we IPs first objected and disputed but then playing clever india sock group got page protection and further added pro india unnessary details /refrences to arrive at POV push imposed "current version'. so finally dispute is between current version and IPs proposed version.

and proposed para is as follows ""In lok sabha election 2014 voter turnout was 50%, which was lowest as compare to 34 other Indian states. In state election 2014 turnout was 65% for which elected Chief Minister gave separatist and Pakistan credit for not disturbing this round of elections." 115.186.146.225 (talk) 05:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

References

1. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/Highest-ever-voter-turnout-recorded-in-2014-polls-govt-spending-doubled-since-2009/articleshow/35033135.cms
2. "Jammu and Kashmir registers highest voter turnout in 25 years, Jharkhand breaks records". Deccan Chronicle. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
3. "J&K polls: 76 per cent voter turnout recorded in the final phase". IBNLive. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
4. "Jammu and Kashmir Registers Highest Voter Turnout in 25 Years, Jharkhand Breaks Records". NDTV.com. 20 December 2014. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
5. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/mehbooba-defends-muftis-remarks-on-pakistan/article6951674.ece

On talk page of kashmir conflict IP 115.186.146.225 rightly pointed out that Disputed para in the lead be removed. It was observed and caused dispute among users so it should be removed until Dispute resolution committee's decision. It is unethical to maintain disputed para for weeks over weeks. It was already on page since last ten days to deceive article visitors because its neutrality is seriously questioned and same has been accepted by dispute resolution committee for investigation.Whistle blowing is encouraged world wide so whistle blowers opinion should be respected here. I tried to remove this but see here https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kashmir_conflict&action=history how Human 3015 is controlling this page and he also tried to intimidate by giving warnings me on my talk page in the name of 3 revert rule even though i tried it two times.39.47.50.14 (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

List of_Murder,_She_Wrote_episodes

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of Murder, She Wrote episodes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Crazyseiko (talk · contribs)
• Skyerise (talk · contribs)
• Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk · contribs)
• StewieBaby05 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is the second attempt, which was suggested after more talk page dissensions: We currently have a dispute over the content of the page, Two editors believe the page does not need to change. I believe some of the information mainly who the Murderer is, thus bring this page in conflict with wiki policy WP:TOOMUCH. I pointed out most of pages on wiki do not have this information, one response to that was lack of editors.

I also pointed out nearly ALL the information has no refs or has point of ref so how do I know if the information postage is even correct? No one has replyed to that issues.

IM not clean chicken but its not been helped this issues has hit rock bottom with some of the throwing back and forward. What made that worse was another editor throw there two cent worth of discontent against me so, it got even more sour. which it really shouldn;t have.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

talk page, which as gone down like lead pipe, asking for Third party etc

How do you think we can help?

A good number of views, but I believe this process may be pointless and I may have to this the admin broad to get a proper ruling.

Summary of dispute by Skyerise

Summary of dispute by Rms125a@hotmail.com

List of_Murder,_She_Wrote_episodes discussion

• Volunteer note - On the one hand, there has now been discussion on the article talk page that has not resolved the issue, so that dispute resolution may be in order. On the other hand, the filing party has not listed any other editors in the case header, and has not notified the other editors on their talk pages of this request. User:Crazyseiko - Please list the other editors in the case header, and provide them with the appropriate notice that you are requesting discussion here. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:57, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

This is the first time, so I have now added in the names, but I have idea how to notified the other editors, what is the code?

• Volunteer note - Post to their talk pages. You may use the template {{subst:DRN-notice}} for the purpose, and its use is encouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you need an additional volunteer? This would be my first attempt at helping on DRN, thought it might be good if I sort of tagged along with someone who knows what they're doing, but I wasn't sure if that was a good way to get started? My bad! valereee (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• I dont mind how may volunteers join in!. I have done as requested and placed the tags on said talk pages.

Thanks, crazyseiko -- I meant to be asking the other volunteer whether he minded if I hung around watching and helping in any way he might find helpful, or whether he'd rather I find another case to go learn from.  :) valereee (talk) 20:18, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

What if this comes into play, would this make this request useless? https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Skyerise

Volunteer note - Don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~, Crazyseiko! Come what may of that ANI discussion, it's not really something salient to this specific content dispute, unless the ANI thread is closed with a decision to block the editor in question or something to that effect, if that is what is being discussed-- in which case, the DRN case will simply continue sans their participation, I would think. Seeing as there are many parties who would be able to keep the discussion going without them, I wouldn't say it would be a critical issue to this area. BlusterBlaster _boop 22:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I just wanted to double check, it would be a tad unfair if a user can't give a proper response to this issues ie not all the facts etc --Crazyseiko (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Amendment - hold on, I just realized that there are only 3 participants in this case listed thus far (had the number of parties confused with a case further down), sorry! Perhaps it may cause an issue for Skyerise to be unable to comment here should that happen, depending on their level of involvement in this content dispute (which isn't readily clear to me at a glance), but as things don't seem to be final at ANI at the moment, it remains to be seen. If you know of any other significant/recent contributors to the article or participants in the content conflict, I'd recommend touching base with them if you can. BlusterBlaster _boop 22:51, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

That ANI thread has been going on for twelve days anyway, and there doesn't appear to be any recent discussion of blocking that editor. There are sanctions being discussed that wouldn't affect editing or discussing the article in question. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to ask what happens if the other two people don't want to talk on here? --Crazyseiko (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• I have added multiple issues tags to the page to help highlight some of the problems I have raised. --Crazyseiko (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: StewieBaby05 (talk · contribs) should be invited, as they added the content when creating the table on December 10, 2014. Skyerise (talk) 01:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

I am opening this case for moderated discussion. I can see that one issue is whether to include the name of the murderer in each of the episodes. Is there any other issue? Can each of the participants please state, concisely, why they think that this information should or should not be included. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Please be civil. The objective should be to agree on how the article should be.

To answer a question, no one is required to discuss the issue here, but we would like to proceed with as many editors as are willing to participate.

Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

One editor has replied. If no other editors comment within 24 hours, this thread will be closed due to inactivity. That will not affect the text of the article nor ability to edit the article, but editors are encouraged (not required) to take part in discussion (here for the next 24 hours or on the talk page). Robert McClenon (talk) 04:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

First statement by Crazyseiko

The problem is kinda a bit more straight forward yet not so. The page in question I believe has to main issues. First: WP:TOOMUCH and second the lack of any references etc. Nearly all the information on that page has to be taken at face value, and murderer is the worse aspect of the above two points. I've been here for many a year and I;ve been repeated told off you need a ref even if the information is so what True. --Crazyseiko (talk) 11:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: What is the point of this if NO ONE wants to talk about the problems, I guess will have to take this to an admin broad to get a proper ruling then from early next week.--Crazyseiko (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

First statement by Skyerise

First statement by Rms125a@hotmail.com

First statement by StewieBaby05

Talk:Shang dynasty#Language

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Shang dynasty#Language (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Easy772 (talk · contribs)
• Nishidani (talk · contribs)
• Rajmaan (talk · contribs)
• Kanguole (talk · contribs)
• Ogress (talk · contribs)
• Zanhe (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

We are discussing the "due weight" that should be assigned to the similarities between Austro-Asiatic languages and Old Chinese in the proposed "Shang Language" section on the Shang Dynasty article and the "Old Chinese" article.

They accuse me of being a "troll". I accused them of bias.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to compromise. 2 previous editors I previously disagreed with later agreed to a 'brief mention' which I am fine with.

How do you think we can help?

I think both sides should post the material directly from the source without their personal interpretation/opinion and let the neutral party determine the due weight.

Summary of dispute by Nishidani

In linguistics, you have internal analysis to reconstruct a language's history, and comparative analysis, to figure out that language's phylogeny. The former is basically focused on the idea of a self-contained structure, and separates Sinitic from the Tibeto-Burman family; the latter focuses on the relation between languages, and is more open to the idea that Old Chinese has its roots in proto-Tibeto-Burman. That the Shang language is considered the oldest form of Chinese has enjoyed a rough consensus, esp. among Chinese-language specialists. Scott DeLancey, who specializes in Tibetan, Himalayan, and North American languages, has argued the earliest language of a Chinese dynasty (Shang) might have differed, and the succeeding Zhou dynasty language represents an overlay of a 'Sino-Tibetan' language on a people speaking a southeast Asian language. Easy's problem is that he only has one clear source for this, and is unfamiliar with linguistics. Those who object are familiar with Chinese and some of the linguistic evidence, but regard Scott DeLancey as an outsider, or theories that contextualize Chinese in a broader multi-lingual/multi ethnic historical context with suspicion. Personally, I think the major advances in the field over the last three decades are complex, nuanced and polyphonic, and not reducible to a facile or complacent 'consensus of scholarship'. The proper way out is simply to register the details of these controversies, per WP:Due, rather than stuff evidence in, or summarily exclude it. The compromise:

'the Shang language is widely believed to have been an ancestral form of Sinitic, though there have been occasional proposals for a Southeast Asian affinity.

is basically question-begging (Sinitic can mean 'ancestral' or '2nd century BCE: Chinese, etc. =a form of old Sinitic" is what is meant) and devoid of cogency.Nishidani (talk) 13:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Zanhe. Naturally, one would not expect The Cambridge History of Ancient China, (1999) to comment on, or include references to, a theory that has been proposed a decade later than its publication. External sources do state that there is a certain nervousness among Sinologists over new linguistic theories that argue against the traditional model that Chinese was 'Chinese' from the year dot. See Michael L. Walter, Buddhism and Empire: The Political and Religious Culture of Early Tibet BRILL, 2009 pp.75f. and esp. p.137 n.12.Nishidani (talk) 12:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Rajmaan

Some members of several internet forums have an agenda to push with their own original research on the alleged ethnic origins of Chinese civilization. These just happen to match up with what has been proposed to be added to the article. And this is supposed by about linguistics only. So why is it being used to insinuate members of an ethnic group were or a certain origin? FYI I did not accuse Easy772 of being a troll. The actual troll is a guy who was arguing against Easy772 on these forums, named Toohoo aka Wingerman aka literaryClarity aka MohistManiac. I just don't want either Easy772 or Toohoo bringing their argument to Misplaced Pages. And yes these are relevant, in the case users are trying to turn wikipedia into a WP:BATTLEGROUND for their flame wars on the forums. Please keep this flame war on those forums and not here.

See these forums to see what I am talking about.

http://www.eastbound88.com/entry.php/259-Sino-Tibetan-origin

http://www.eastbound88.com/archive/index.php/t-24360.html

http://www.eastbound88.com/showthread.php/25814-Why-come-too-hoo-bring-up-Chinese-history-in-everythang-he-say

http://www.worldhistoria.com/sinitic-civilization-began-in-3000-bc-in-liangzhu_topic128651_page1.html

http://historum.com/asian-history/62119-proof-supraethnic-han-peoples-contained-several-components-5.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20150326205946/http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/36792-liangzhu/

https://web.archive.org/web/20140829103747/http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/36974-sino-tibetan-is-not-genetic-to-sino/page-3

Rajmaan (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Kanguole

Most of the discussion on the talk page is about including a theory (from the second citation below) that the Shang dynasty spoke and wrote a non-Sino-Tibetan language. This appears to have been recently dropped in favour of what has been presented as a compromise: a vague phrasing about similarities with other language groups, with selected supporting quotations to be added to the lead of the Old Chinese article. When I objected to that on grounds of weight and encyclopedic style, User:Easy772 referred the case here. I believe that he/she is seeking an adjudication, which this noticeboard will not provide. Kanguole 18:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ogress

(Apologies for my delay in speaking, I have been ill.)

The talk page discussion comprises a strongly-pushed argument by the user who filed this DRN (and, afaik, absolutely no one else) that the Shang dynasty did not speak a Sino-Tibetan language but rather an Austroasiatic language. They provide some citations they claim are in support of their argument, most of which have been challenged as to their actual content (i.e. that they do not say what he claims they do), and I strongly feel this remains a fringe theory at this time. I argue undue weight, lack of comprehension of and misapplication of cites, and a lack of coherent scholarly argument, particularly in regards to Delancey, whose work is the backbone of Easy's argument. Delancey's argument is about the internal structure of the language family that Old Chinese belongs to, not that the Shang were AA-speakers. There is no minority scholarly consensus to add. Ogress _smash! 21:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Zanhe

I was involved in the discussion, but not initially notified of the dispute. Thanks to Ogress for notifying me. I'm a history enthusiast but not a linguist, and don't know whether Delancey's view represents a small minority or a fringe. But I've read many general-purpose academic publications, none of which mention Delancey's view or anything similar. The Cambridge History of Ancient China, for example, says "it is clear that the language in which they are written is directly ancestral to what we know as 'Chinese' in both a classical and a modern context." (see here). Easy772 has been persistently advocating the inclusion of Delancey's view, but from the discussion on Talk:Shang dynasty, I believe most people are against it. -Zanhe (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Shang dynasty#Language discussion

• Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case. In looking at the article talk page, it does appear that there has been extended discussion, and this case is ready for dispute resolution. As the filing party notes, the discussion has not always been civil. If this case is accepted, discussion will focus on content and not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Another volunteer's note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but just reminding the filing editor that it is his obligation to notify the other participants of this filing by leaving a note on their user talk pages. The template mentioned at the top of this page can be used for that purpose or a custom-written note. If those notices are not given in the next two or three days — and placing a notice on the article talk page will not suffice — this listing will be closed as abandoned. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  Yet another volunteer's note: I have gone ahead and notified (, , , ) all four parties for you. Kharkiv07 (T) 20:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• I am a participant in that conversation and have not been listed here by the filing author Ogress _smash! 20:23, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  •  Done You've been added to the participant list, and I've added a dispute summary section for you. BlusterBlaster _boop 21:51, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Other prominent and current participants in that conversation have not been included by the OP. This is already not starting out on good footing when you examine the logs of who has been actively discussing this issue: this talk history is ENTIRELY about Easy's position and I see aside from myself he did not include at minimum Lathdrinor and Zanhe, who are both also respected editors on Sinitic topics on Misplaced Pages and took nuanced positions on the inclusion (i.e. not just "I agree"). Ogress _smash! 23:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Observer Last time I spoke with Easy772, we reached an agreement by which I'd be fine with a statement to the effect of 'the Shang language is widely believed to have been an ancestral form of Sinitic, though there have been occasional proposals for a Southeast Asian affinity.' I am one of the two editors he mentions as having agreed with a 'brief mention'. However, the form of the 'brief mention' I agreed to is fairly specific, so I've been tapped to observe this resolution, in case it deviates from what was agreed. Lathdrinor (talk) 01:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I would like to note before we begin that this dispute also extends to the ‘Old Chinese’ article, since that is the language they spoke. I am not sure if I need to make another separate request for that article.

These are the materials I feel are of interest regarding the language of the Shang Dynasty: Old Chinese. I am hoping to get a neutral opinion on how to include these in the ‘Old Chinese’ article and the proposed language section in the ‘Shang Dynasty’ article.

First citation

“There are many issues that seem related to the initial formation process of the Chinese language in the study of Chinese history.The recent archaeological research shows that just as Chinese civilization is a pluralistic and mixed one,so can Chinese be very similar to it.Archaeology has confirmed that Xia Dynasty,Shang Dynasty and Zhou Dynasty originated differently and their respective languages were naturally different,too.However,the three dynasties had close relationship with each other,so their languages had natural links.And another notable fact is that Zhou Dynasty originated in part with Hudi tribe in North China.Therefore,we can draw the conclusion that the formation of Chinese is a complicated blending process.” Xie Ruo-qiu, 'Analysis of the Origin of Han Culture in Archaeological and Historical Linguistic Perspective,' Department of Chinese Language and Literature,Jieyang Vocational & Technical College, Jieyang, Guangdong . Comment. It doesn't give one much confidence in the author to read that he is still repeating the cliché about the Xia dynasty, which is in all likelihood, as most concede, a Zhou invention.Nishidani (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Note: I am currently awaiting access to the primary material and may have to add additional citations to this list.

Second citation

“A persistent problem in Sino-Tibetan linguistics is that Chinese is characterized by a mix of lexical, phonological, and syntactic features, some of which link it to the Tibeto-Burman languages, others to the Tai-Kadai, Hmong-Mien, and Mon-Khmer families of Southeast Asia. It has always been recognized that this must reflect intense language contact. This paper develops a hypothesis about the nature of that contact. The language of Shang was a highly-creolized lingua franca based on languages of the Southeast Asian type. Sinitic is a result of the imposition of the Sino-Tibetan language of the Zhou on a population speaking this lingua franca, resulting in a language with substantially Sino-Tibetan lexicon and relict morphology, but Southeast Asian basic syntax.” Scott DeLancey in Zhuo Jing-Schmidt (ed.), Increased Empiricism: Recent advances in Chinese Linguistics, John Benjamins Publishing Company, 2013 p.73

Note: Apparently this is Benedict and Nishida’s hypothesis(?) in a an essay written by DeLancey, and though he himself doesn’t subscribe to it, he says on page 88 “assuming the Shang was of Bai Yue stock, which is certainly likely”. So he clearly doesn’t think it to be a fringe theory.

Third citation

This article explores a new resource. Recent research — the fruit of many long years Axel Schuessler has spent gathering words — reveals an astonishing number of very old Southeastern words in the Old Sinitic lexicon.1 Schuessler has, in his words, uncovered “the multiple origins of the Chinese lexicon”;2 as Schuessler remarks, amazedly, “When pursuing OC and TB/ST etyma down to their roots, one often seems to hit AA bedrock, that is, a root shared with AA.” David McCraw, 'An “ABC” Exercise in Old Sinitic Lexical Statistics,' SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS Number 202 May, 2010 p.3

Note: The quote of interest is from: Axel Schuessler, ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese (University of Hawai’i Press, 2007) page 4

Fourth citation

'from a typological point of view, Old Chinese was more similar to modern East Asian languages like Gyarong, Khmer or Atayal than to its daughter language Middle Chinese.' Laurent Sagart, The Roots of Old Chinese, John Benjamins Publishing, 1999 p.13.

@Ogress: I apologize, I am relatively new here and am not yet fully familiar with all of the policies. I have no problem with including them, they had already agreed to a brief mention so I didn't think we were still discussing/debating the issue. I do, however, have a problem with you claiming them as "respected members" or "experts on Sinology" or whatever. Introducing them as such gives them false authority when we are supposed to be objectively analyzing the material on both sides rather than discussing the expertise of editors. We should stick to what other historians or linguists have different opinions or criticize the information I've cited above, please. Easy772 (talk) 00:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Rajmaan: That's just more ad hominem. You're attempting to discredit me as the source of information rather than discuss the due weight the material I posted should be given. It should be noted that Toohoo and I have since resolved our difference of opinion and we are not participating in a 'Misplaced Pages Battleground' scenario. If we were, you would see references to Yangtze River Basin neolithic cultures being the origin of Sinitic language being the opposing argument to my view. I would ask again that we please focus on the due weight that should be given to the sources. Thanks. Easy772 (talk) 19:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

No, what was posted on the forum is very relevant. We aren't on wikipedia to push original research concocted on internet forums. What was posted on the Shang dynasty article is a synthesis of various articles and original research interpretation that was first concocted on an internet forum. Why is DeLancey's work being shoved together with other citations to "prove" that the Shang were of XX ethnicity or spoke XX.Rajmaan (talk) 20:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It's completely irrelevant and yet again, more ad hominem rather than focusing on the actual sources themselves. Nothing I posted was original research, it was all from sources that meet Misplaced Pages's criteria undoubtedly. I am asking for a neutral party to determine the due weight since I am accused of being biased. And, since I am forced to "defend myself" I don't even think the Shang would have been a good proxy for modern Khmer speakers (or what have you) genetically, linguistically or even culturally. I merely think the material should be expressed, in layman's terms with what a formal committee determines to be "due weight."--Easy772 (talk) 20:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Kanguole: It's fine if you don't agree with "how" I posted it, but I think the material previously mentioned deserves to be stated in layman's terms and not text book terminology. As noted by another user, the Old Chinese article especially has clear issues with 'synthesis' and 'jargon'. I came here for a neutral view on how the material should be given "due weight". I know this notice board will not give a "ruling", though it may have to be taken to formal mediation.

As a side note, a lot of this has been about discussing myself, despite the previous mention of not discussing the users. As a reminder:
Refrain from discussing editorial conduct, and remember this noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment only on the contributions not the contributor. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. --Easy772 (talk) 20:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Convenience section break

• Co-ordinator comment - OK, I appreciate that the topic here may be one that you all have disagreements about - that's why you're here. Noting that, I ask that you consider that if you were able to resolve this dispute without outside assistance, there would be no need for you to be here, so I ask that you don't discuss further until a volunteer is assigned - I am looking into this for you at the moment. Lastly, I note that only two of the four involved participants have commented here, and as I feel they may have a role to play in this discussion, ask if a volunteer can reach out to them and invite them once more to the discussion (I note they have been previously invited but have not yet responded.). Cheers. Steven Zhang 22:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Interstate matches in Australian rules football

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Interstate matches in Australian rules football (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Aspirex (talk · contribs)
• SportsEditor518 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a content dispute concerning the article subsection Interstate matches in Australian rules football#Importance. The difficulty is in balancing an encyclopedic description of the historical important/popularity of interstate football – and most specifically, its importance within the state of Victoria. The two editors involved have substantially different interpretations of the history. I have been attempting to describe the fact that interstate football was, in general, less popular in Victoria than it was in other states; and I have been trying to push to quantify its popularity in Victoria by comparing it with crowds at club matches.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Began with a brief edit summary war, then discussion on user talk pages. Early discussion was hindered by a lack of references. See User_talk:Aspirex#Interstate_matches_in_Australian_rules_football, and User_talk:2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F (SportsEditor518 went under that IP in early discussion). Following Aspirex obtaining references, the issue has been re-discussed on SportsEditor518's user talk page with no further progress.

How do you think we can help?

A third eye would be helpful to make unbiased judgements on what can and cannot be concluded from the references in question. A communication intermediary would also be helpful, as neither side seems to be able to fully appreciate the other's position.

Summary of dispute by SportsEditor518

Hi. I'd like to start by clarifying my position. The sentence in question, that I wrote is accurate. Which is But Interstate Football was still hugely popular in Victoria, which is sourced, and well supported by other references. Now certainly Interstate Football was not always popular in Victoria, the same as the other states, they had periods of highs and lows. But definitely at times it was very popular. Which I can prove, which is as follows, the 1989 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 91,960, and 10,000 people got turned away at the gate, reference . The 1971 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 66,000, reference . The 1963 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 59,260, reference . The 2008 intestate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 69,000, reference . The 1995 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 64,000, reference . The 1978 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 45,192, that information is on the Misplaced Pages page (Interstate matches in Australian rules football). The two interstate games in Victoria in 1975 got big crowds of 40,006, that information is on the Misplaced Pages page 1975 Knockout Carnival. All of those games in Victoria got big crowds, which would mean during those times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria. Also my reference for line in question, from a former professional Australian rules footballer Ray Walker who lived and played in Victoria, and was involved in Victorian Football for many years, states With the VFL still a few years from morphing into the national competition it is today interstate clashes between Victoria, South Australia & Western Australia were amongst the most anticipated clashes during the first half of the "electrifying" eighties. And to add to that it is common knowledge that Australian Football in Victoria is hugely popular, and has been described as an obsession, reference . That would mean Interstate Football was hugely popular in Victoria at that time, because in a State where the sport is hugely popular, interstate games being amongst the most anticipated in an environment where the sport is hugely popular, means Interstate Football during that period was hugely popular in Victoria. Also another reference that proves my case is Ted Whitten a former professional Australian rules footballer who lived and played in Victoria for many years, and who played Interstate Football for Victoria for many years, and was involved in the Victorian State team for many years, is quoted as saying players would walk on glass to wear the Victorian jumper, that is how desperate players are to play, reference . All of these references prove that at times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria.

Editor Aspirex position that he is trying to prove how popular Interstate Football was in Victoria by comparing it to crowds at club matches is irrelevant. The subject is Interstate Football was popular in Victoria, not how popular it was in comparison to club Football. So therefore that argument is irrelevant.

I am still hoping that this can be solved by a compromise. I have recently left a compromise proposition on editor Aspirex's talk page. I have yet to have a response, but I only posted it recently. The proposal is get rid of the line in question, and add (Victoria's popularity in the concept was inconsistent. There were times it was very popular, but though out it's history in the State there were periods of low popularity. The periods of popularity usually coincided with close contests or losses with other states, and after periods of interstate games not being played in the State). I think this would be the best way to describe the content.

So in summarising at times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria. I have several references that prove this. Therefore my statement in question and my proposal are accurate.SportsEditor518 (talk) 08:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Interstate matches in Australian rules football

• Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case. In looking at the discussion, which has all taken place on various user talk pages with no one regularly using signatures, it looks like there's possibly a third user involved? the possible third user was actually an IP of one of the two named users. valereee (talk) 15:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment – 2001:8003...etc was the former IP of SportsEditor518. Unfortunately, much of the early discussion took place with each of us replying to the other's talk page, affecting the trackability of the discussion – but all comments have been signed. Later discussion has all take place on SportsEditor518's page. Aspirex (talk) 06:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Offer I'm willing to compile all of the discussions into one place if desired. Aspirex (talk) 06:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Volunteer note Thanks for the offer, Aspirex! Let's wait until SportsEditor518 shows up. I noticed that the request for his input was inside another section on his talk page, so I just reposted it in its own section. He has edited today, so maybe he just didn't realize it was there. valereee (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I have compiled everything at SportsEditor518's talk page. Aspirex (talk) 07:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

I am opening this case for moderated discussion. Thank you, SportsEditor518 and Aspirex for both being open to the dispute resolution process; that alone tells me good things about both of you.  :) I see that Aspirex has compiled the information onto SportsEditor518's talk page; I'll read it over. I have an appointment this morning and likely won't be able to respond for several hours. valereee (talk) 10:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I've read through the discussion as posted on SportsEditor518's talk page. From what I can see, you've both been sincerely trying to work together, talking about compromise, staying civil even when you thought the other was being unreasonable. Yay, team! For a next step I'd like to check that my understanding of your disagreement is accurate.

SportsEditor518, you seem to be saying:

• that interstate football was hugely or very popular in VIC
• that it was not less popular there than in the rest of AU
• that low points in interstate football popularity occurred across AU, not just in VIC

And you've cited sources for this in game crowd statistics from reliable sources for various interstate games/times throughout history in VIC/AU.

Plus, you aren't sure you trust the interpretation Aspirex is putting on sources that aren't online where you can assess them for yourself.

Aspirex, you seem to be saying:

• that in VIC, interstate football has at times been less popular than intrastate club football
• that "hugely popular" and "very popular" are qualitative terms and therefore opinion, so aren't appropriate for inclusion in Misplaced Pages without a reliable source stating those opinions
• that using game crowd statistics to support qualitative assertions represents synthesis and/or original research, which can't be used as reliable third-party sources in Misplaced Pages articles

And if I'm understanding it correctly, you both seem to agree that football in general has been at least as popular in VIC as in the rest of AU, and that the area of disagreement lies in the relative popularity of interstate football.

I'll ask you both to comment on whether my understanding of both your areas of disagreement and your areas of agreement is accurate. valereee (talk) 15:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

First statement by Aspirex

On those points:

• "that in VIC, interstate football has at times been less popular than intrastate club football" (technical change, as 'intrastate' has a separate definition which is specifically relevant to Tasmania). That's not right. The main point I'm trying to get across is that interstate football in Victoria has throughout history been less popular than interstate football in other states. I see this fact as having an important part to play in the history and culture of interstate football – it goes most of the way to explaining why interstate football was more substantially centred in Adelaide and Perth after the 1960s, and it probably has a big part to play in explaining the ultimate demise of interstate football, which is why I'm so intent on its inclusion and description in full. I've been using a comparison between interstate football and club football because I think that's the most sensible way to "normalise" the concept of popularity between the states – but the take-home message I'm trying to promote by doing that is a comparison between interstate football in Victoria and elsewhere, not a comparison between interstate football and club football.
• "that "hugely popular" and "very popular" are qualitative terms and therefore opinion, so aren't appropriate for inclusion in Misplaced Pages without a reliable source stating those opinions" More or less correct. The issue is probably more that the terms are ambiguous than that they are opinionated.
• "that using game crowd statistics to support qualitative assertions represents synthesis and/or original research, which can't be used as reliable third-party sources in Misplaced Pages articles" Yes, I think this is a textbook exapmle of why we don't allow WP:SYNTHESIS. As you've seen from the history, the two of us are looking at the same crowd numbers and drawing opposite conclusions. (I recognise the descriptions of interstate football's popularity in SA, WA and Tasmania as they stand in the article are also SYNTHed, but neither of us seem to be disputing those conclusions)
• "And if I'm understanding it correctly, you both seem to agree that football in general has been at least as popular in VIC as in the rest of AU..." – we haven't discussed this explicitly, but I'm not certain we agree on this one. I've been treating the base-line popularity of club football as constant across all four states, which is why I've been freely comparing club and interstate football with each other. SportsEditor518 has said on a couple of occasions "Football is like a religion in Victoria", and I wonder if that's intended to mean that club football should be assumed to be more popular in Victoria than elsewhere.

One thing I do agree to: the comment/reference about Ted Whitten refers to the the importance of interstate football to the players, rather than its importance to fans – all of our discussion to date has been focussed on importance to fans. I think it would be worthwhile to include a separate paragraph in the same section of the article describing importance to players; I think that would be a useful addition and should be easily referencable. Any news article which quotes Graham Cornes will be able to provide an equally valid South Australian perspective on the matter. (Note, however – Whitten was the most vigorous promotor of interstate football in Victoria, and he would tend to exaggerate to generate public interest. But I've seen enough references of players talking about their pride to play for Victoria that I wouldn't dispute his sentiment) Aspirex (talk) 23:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Second statement by SportsEditor518

First I'll address the moderators requested points.

• That interstate football was hugely or very popular in VIC - yes Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria.
• That it was not less popular there than in the rest of AU - I'd like to clarify something, I'm not disputing that Interstate Football was more popular outside Victoria. It was a little bit more popular outside Victoria.
• That low points in interstate football popularity occurred across AU, not just in VIC - yes I agree with that, and is accurate.
• Plus, you aren't sure you trust the interpretation Aspirex is putting on sources that aren't online where you can assess them for yourself - yes that's correct, and I'm not sure if they even exist.
• And if I'm understanding it correctly, you both seem to agree that football in general has been at least as popular in VIC as in the rest of AU, and that the area of disagreement lies in the relative popularity of interstate football - no for both. The first point, Football is way more popular in Victoria than in the rest of Australia, it's the heartland of the sport in Australia, references . And I'm not debating the point the relative popularity of interstate football. I'm saying that Interstate Football was at times very popular in Victoria, not relative to anything else.

I'll now address Aspirex's points.

• Aspirex claim that interstate football was more substantially centred in Adelaide and Perth after the 1960s is not true. Between 1981 and 1988 there were no interstate games played in Victoria. But for the rest of time from the 1960's onwards until the concept was abolished many interstate games were played in Victoria. So that statement is incorrect.
• Aspirex's point I've been using a comparison between interstate football and club football because I think that's the most sensible way to "normalise" the concept of popularity between the states is irrelevant. Because like I explained the subject is was Interstate Football popular in Victoria at all, and a comparison between Interstate Football and Club Football is not needed and is irrelevant to describe weather the concept was popular in Victoria at all, therefore it's irrelevant.
• Aspirex's point I'm trying to promote by doing that is a comparison between interstate football in Victoria and elsewhere is also irrelevant. Because in no way does that comparison describe weather Interstate Football was popular in Victoria at all.
• Aspirex's claim that some of my sources are Synthesis is wrong. I have two references which is related to the topic of the article, one states a crowd I said was big is big, and the other that a crowd and crowds below and around the crowds in my references are big, references
• Aspirex's claim that some of my sources are ambiguous is wrong. The references are very clear, and I proved that in my last point with the references.
• Aspirex's position that club Football is just as popular everywhere in Australia, is not true. Club Football is way more popular in Victoria than in the other states. Reference 1 from Graham Cornes who is a South Australian, who was born in Victoria, and played for and in South Australia for many years, and coached South Australia and in South Australia for many years - . 2 from the AFL - . The reason I bring this up is because it lends a lot of weight to my point that Interstate Football was at times very popular in Victoria, reference . Because interstate games being amongst the most anticipated during period in the reference, reference , in an environment where Football is hugely popular, which I've given several references for, means interstate Football was very popular during that time.
• Aspirex's statement that Ted Whitten used to exaggerate interest in Interstate Football is wrong, and there is no evidence of that.

So in summarising all of my references are valid, and therefore my statement and proposal are accurate. I think my proposal should be added to the article because it's the best way to describe the content.SportsEditor518 (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Philip Benedict#"teaching" section

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Philip Benedict#"teaching" section (edit | subject | history | links | "teaching"_section watch | logs)

Users involved

• Huon (talk · contribs)
• TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs)
• 5.87.161.220 (talk · contribs)
• 128.90.90.125 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There's a dispute on whether the article on Philip Benedict should contain a section on his teaching when nobody but his own students has ever written on that topic.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Explain the importance of policies such as WP:SYN and WP:BLPPRIMARY, and why Benedict's own students are not independent sources on his teaching.

Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom

Huon essentially laid out the problems with this particular section with .

The wider issue of the SPA/IP's overly promotional editing of the entire article is also of concern to me. (Benedict "illuminated" the meaning of a text etc.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The paragraph follows WP citation policies. It states that Benedicts students credit him with supervising their theses. 212.189.167.134 (talk) 08:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 5.87.161.220

No one is alleging that Benedict is a good or bad teacher. But the simple fact that he taught these people has been reported in prize-winning secondary source History books that have been vetted by Harvard University Press, Toronto Press, at least four independent book prize committees, and a combined total of reviews by at least 50 professional historians. No one disputes that he taught these scholars. There were some language issues by a different editor, but those have been corrected. There is no reason not to include this uncontroversial information. History books that discuss other scholars are secondary sources. And even if they weren't WP allows for the inclusion of primary sources. 94.161.20.219 (talk) 05:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 128.90.90.125

Talk:Philip Benedict#"teaching" section discussion

• Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case. There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. I will not be accepting this case because I have previous knowledge of the subject of the BLP. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

What is needed for more action here? If nothing will be happening soon, then an RfC could easily settle the "teaching" section issue. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:13, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Greece-Italy relations

Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Misplaced Pages, DRN requires extensive recent talk page discussion before seeking assistance. There's only been two edits by the listing editor in this discussion and only one recent edit by the other. If other editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Moot. Filing editor has been topic banned from editing about Abdul-Jabbar for one year. — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:List of_converts_to_Islam_from_Hinduism

Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Misplaced Pages, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If other editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make here (though I fear that in light of what's already happened here that it may have little chance of success). — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Rohingya people#Edit warring|dispute whether bulk content removal is legal

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Rohingya people#Edit warring (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 203.81.69.86 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In a nutshell, the following edits i have added to the article Rohingya people, as shown here, have been removed by an IP address (203.81.69.86 ). Their main gripe seems to be that The Economist is not a reliable source, so the edits are not legal and hence the IP removes my additions. However, the IP strangely keeps at least one of my edits that uses The Economist source (i.e. my edit that says: The word Rohingya means “inhabitant of Rohang”, which was the early Muslim name for Arakan). This leads me to believe that the IP simply removes (or approves) content based upon what suits their own personal views, rather than based upon any legitimate concerns regarding the reliability of references.

In the talk page section you will also note that i already have one editor, User:QuiteUnusual, who supports the reliability of The Economist. Therefore, i think with this support plus your (i.e. dispute resolution officer) own advice this dispute can be quickly concluded and either a restoration or exclusion of my edits can be finalised.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to resolve this dispute using exhaustive reasoning with the IP on the articles relevant talk page section.

How do you think we can help?

I believe that if it is shown that The Economist is reliable then the IP will have zero excuses to remove the content that is sourced from it.

Summary of dispute by 203.81.69.86

Talk:Rohingya people#Edit warring|dispute whether bulk content removal is legal discussion

This DRN fails to include all of the participants over the last few days ... who, incidentally, edit-warred the page to a total temporary protection. I am not a participant in the discussions, but I reported users for edit warring and sent the page for RPP. Look at this edit history train wreck.

• Volunteer Note - The listed IP has not been notified, but has been blocked as a sockpuppet of a blocked editor (and so I am not notifying). If other good-faith editors are edit-warring with the filing party, they should be listed and notified. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Pam Reynolds_case#Balancing_Woerlee

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Pam Reynolds case#Balancing Woerlee (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• SansBias (talk · contribs)
• and otheres (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am adding credible scientific analysis of the Pam Reynolds case. Only the view of an anesthetist Woerlee is allowed by others. They will not allow a balanced analysis by credible scientists. My addition keeps on getting deleted. Sansbias.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

my comments are ignored. I pointed out they had a npov and they continue anyway.

How do you think we can help?

Please freeze the page with my additions.

Summary of dispute by and otheres

Talk:Pam Reynolds_case#Balancing_Woerlee discussion

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