Misplaced Pages

Sorry,The line was crowded or it is my looking mistake.

1.I don't know language barrier.where ? plese account for it more clearly.and You should also understand my theory a little.

2.What do you want to say?your sentence is terrible understood easily and is a painful thing revealed?Please do not blame you so much.

3.rewrite:Srrroy,I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.

The thing not participating in the discussion is usually approved.--Forestfarmer 09:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (3)

Dokdo are islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea)and disputed area between Korea(Dokdo) and Japan(Takesima).The islets are the "Liancourt Rocks" in English. The Korean Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles and control of the islands by "the Korean nation" but a territory in Japan on international low. The islet's is declared by Korea as a territory before Japan abandonment territory of Korea,is not included Dokto,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

announce:I would like to edit this writing to opening paragraph.do anyone argue this opning paragraph ?--Forestfarmer 12:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, same objections as before. I expect that this would be reverted. Actually, this version is even less neutral, because it explicitly endorses a Japanese point of view by saying "but a territory in Japan on international low." --Reuben 15:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

If you were not quite satisfid with above paragraph.more clearly write the point.Are you really discuss with me ?I am felt only in putting off the conclusion. Rusk documents and Treaty of San Francisco account for Takesima's territory in Japan on international low.if you thought that It is not neutral. you have to account.--Forestfarmer 17:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph you wrote above isn't neutral at all, though. It simply agrees with Japan. Please just leave it as it is for now. If you feel that any part of it isn't neutral enough, could you please state why? Rōnin 21:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Srrroy,I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.--Forestfarmer 01:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't have to argue with you about whether Korea or Japan has a stronger claim to the Liancourt Rocks. We just need to write an article describing the dispute, not adjudicate it. Your version says "but a territory in Japan on international low," which simply endorses the Japanese view. That's the opposite of neutral. --Reuben 21:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, please Write opposite veiw on International low clearly and simply.I would discuss then.--Forestfarmer 01:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

My views on international law are irrelevant. So are yours. This isn't a legal forum, it's an encyclopedia. --Reuben 07:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understood meaning of words but I feel your terrible confidence.Sad to write,I think The difference of the idea to International Law between South Korea and Japan then make This disput.Do you want to say korea don't keep international low ? It is exposed Korea breaking International low.When discussing it by an unreasonable theory.You should write though South Korea should observe International Law.--Forestfarmer 08:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (4)

To start this article with either: "Takesima are islets in the Sea of Japan" or "Dokdo are islets in the Sea of Japan", expresses a non-WP:NPOV when there is an acceptable English alternative which is not derived from an Japanese or Korean word. As it say at the start of WP:NPOV Policy page:

NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Misplaced Pages principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes maps, reader-facing templates, categories and portals. According to Misplaced Pages founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."

That these two words can generate so much conversation on the talk page of the article, from people originating from these two countries, is a clear indication that to call the islets Dokdo or Takesima is not considered neutral in either country. So in my opinion the article should start:

Liancourt Rocks are islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea)...

--Philip Baird Shearer 09:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I see.rewrited.Please write when a grammar and a word, are found. I am not a native. --Forestfarmer 10:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks known in English are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is known as the East Sea in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are known as Dokdo in, and Japan,The islets are known as Takesima in.Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles.
Control of the islands by the South Korean government but a territory in Japan on international law. The islet's is declared by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandon a territory of Korea,is not included The islets,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

reannounce:I would like to rewrite opening paragraph in this writing .do anyone argue this opning paragraph ?--Forestfarmer 13:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Didn't you see the objections above? Just because you changed a few words here and there, doesn't mean all the previous objections no longer stand. I think you should leave writing the opening paragraph to someone else. Additionally, you now use a different name for the island(s) than the one used in the article. That discussion is a different discussion from this one. Most of the paragraph also has small errors or incomplete sentences which makes it hard to read. Please stop your attempts to singlehandedly come up with a new opening paragraph. It will not be accepted in its current form. Rōnin 13:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

1.I answered ALL objections.Do you not quite satisfied with it?

2.islet literary:a very small island

"islet" is difficult word admittendly.but the meaning is only one.and you aren't misunderstanding the meaning of words.and "islet" meaning explain from "island" more in detail.

3."Most of the paragraph also has small errors or incomplete sentences"please explain more clearly.

"Please stop your attempts to singlehandedly come up with a new opening paragraph."I answered ALL objections.

"It will not be accepted in its current form.".rewrite again:Srrroy,I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.--Forestfarmer 15:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I was rude earlier, but the paragraph you suggested isn't neutral and it's too hard to read. I'm sure you answered the objections above, but that doesn't remove the problem. Rōnin 22:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

1."I'm sorry I was rude earlier,"when you apologized,I am embarrassed.we are discussing now.

2."but the paragraph you suggested isn't neutral" explain more concretely.

3."it's too hard to read."explain more more more concretely.

4." but that doesn't remove the problem"explain more more more more concretely.

It is easy to complain. However, it ends by a mere complaint if it doesn't write CONCRETELY.--Forestfarmer 00:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (5)

reannounce　again:I would like to rewrite opening paragraph in this writing .If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY.I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.and It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.--Forestfarmer 11:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that you want a more concrete explanation, but the fact is your version is felt by myself and Reuben to be biased (agreeing with the Japanese viewpoint) and hard to read, because of some incomplete sentences and small grammatical errors. If you disregard these objections and unilaterally change the opening paragraph, I believe that would be considered vandalism, and reverting it would be justified. I wish you'd take the time to discuss what you disagree with in the current opening paragraph instead of completely rewriting it. Rōnin 21:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

rewrite:I don't understood meaning of words but I feel your terrible confidence.
but I understood that you don't understand this discuss.Think it is welcome because I explain.Cannot you concretely write by itemizing it like this. --Forestfarmer 01:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
current ver.
Dokdo are islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea) currently controlled and administered by South Korea, but claimed by Japan (where they are known as Takeshima).The islets are also known as the Liancourt Rocks in English. The Korean Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles, and supports control of the islands by "the Korean nation".

• "Dokdo are islets"(Liancourt Rocks known in English )POV
  
• "Sea of Japan (East Sea)"(The East Sea known only in Korea)POV
  
• currently controlled and administered by South Korea(Liancourt Rocks is a territory in Japan on international law and the area is disputed on international law when the Syngman Rhee line was declared)POV
• supports control of the islands by "the Korean nation"(Please do not write happily Rogue state's supports.South Korea seems this kind.and they wrotet "supports control" without writing, "supports administered".Do you think this meaning?I cautioned,and I would like to delete.If you want to leave it,I don't edit.I think that South Korea becomes the puppet of North Korea.)my caution

South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

• It is historically opposite.I have not edited it yet.POV--Forestfarmer 07:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
  

and"because of some incomplete sentences and small grammatical errors"EXPLAIN MORE CONCRETELY.--Forestfarmer 01:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. And We should be change the opening paragraph to Forestfarmer's version.--Celldea 09:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

thank you.but There is a little things to have to write.--Forestfarmer 10:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.please read this discussion and discuss before revert
• Please do not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

Liancourt Rocks known in English are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is known as the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are known as Dokdo in, and Japan,The islets are known as Takesima in.Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles. Control of the islets by the South Korean government but a territory in Japan on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandon a territory of Korea,is not included The islets,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

Your suggestion is unacceptable because:

• The paragraph you're suggesting is not in correct English.
• It also clearly supports Japan's point of view and opposes Korea's.

Rōnin 22:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.

but

The paragraph you're suggesting is not in correct English.(write the sample by itemizing it)

It also clearly supports Japan's point of view and opposes Korea's.(write The sample by itemizing it)

why you engage in serious discussion ? I'm tired because I have to write same words again and again.If you found the writing mistake.you have to write the point usually.If you found the not neutral sentence.you have to write the point usually.but they wrote only "the opening paragraph have same mistake" or "only Japanese view" or "opposes Korea's".

It is vandalism only to complain my suggestions.why do you discuss with me ?your writing only complain.Cannot you write a productive sentence?--Forestfarmer 04:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, then stop writing the same thing again and again. You understand what I'm saying just fine, and still you're ignoring it. Your actions here will not be accepted. Rōnin 11:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"stop writing the same thing again and again."write "the same thing" concretely

"still you're ignoring it."What is "it"?write the sample concretely by itemizing it.

"Your actions here will not be accepted."wirte concretely

If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.--Forestfarmer 12:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, should you propose altering the opening paragraph again, I will oppose it for the same reasons I stated above. From now on, I will not repeat my arguments, I will simply revert it if I see you vandalising it. I've already stated my reasons above, and you should be well aware of them. Rōnin 11:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"I will oppose it for the same reasons I stated above."

write "the same reasons I stated above." concretely

"From now on, I will not repeat my arguments, I will simply revert it if I see you vandalising it. I've already stated my reasons above, and you should be well aware of them. "

you don't reply my question and you don't wirte the reason.and you insist that you revet my opening paragraph and The reason is insisted above. I don't understand your insistance.basically,If I rewrite my writing to Opening paragraph.you vandal the sentence.If I don't know the reason.

you should write the reason concretely by itemizing it.I cautioned.--Forestfarmer 12:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (6)

The opening paragraph is fine, the way it is (after that gruesome war over the name of Dokdo/Takeshima.) Good friend100 02:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

thanks.It seems to have exhausted both parties' opinions.May I rewrite opening paragraph to my version truly?--Forestfarmer 08:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I can't find any problem in your opening paragraph.--Celldea 15:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

That opening paragraph would certainly be reverted, for the same reasons as before. --Reuben 16:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Would somebody please state the reasons why Forestfarmer's opening paragraph is so wrong? I have been watching this discussion and it is getting pretty messy. Good friend100 20:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• It's not in correct English.
• It also clearly supports Japan's point of view and opposes Korea's.

Rōnin 23:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

you only complain for my suggestion.you are asking for trouble.I don't not writing it to explain in detail.I'm writing to explain concretely by itemizing the example.

if you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING--Forestfarmer 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The current opening paragraph is perfectly fine as it is. Also, there are several grammatical errors. I think the best way to solve this is by keeping the current opening paragraph the way it is. All the information in the first paragraph are true. Good friend100 23:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Forestfarmer is the one proposing to change it. Rōnin 23:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you still want to say something?You should not make a fool of the discussion so much.--Forestfarmer 00:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey hey we don't need to call each other bad names. I'm not trying to side with one side, but the current paragraph is NPOV. Also, we don't have any of that "Liancourt Rocks" stained all over it. The article may seem POV since the title is Dokdo and the beginning paragraph clearly states that Dokdo is under Korean control and kind of gives the impression that Japan is merely claiming it. But there was a vote and the name is Dokdo.

I don't think we need to edit the first paragraph. Good friend100 00:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"Liancourt Rocks" is disputed area now.and "Liancourt Rocks" is a Territory in Japan on international law.Third party should use third name when it is exist. "a vote" worthy like any? and what is "the name" ?--Forestfarmer 00:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me you do not know the situation clearly. "Dokdo is territory under Japan"? then why did the vote go against the Takeshima side? I thought there were quite a few Japanese editors.

A vote might not be as worthy as an international decision (from the UN for example) but there was a vote several months back and we concluded that the article should be moved to "Dokdo".

Your "international law"? What international law are you talking about? Was it the San Francisco treaty? The San Francisco treaty did not mention anything about Dokdo but it clearly ordered Japan to return all territorial lands they conquered. I have heard some editors say that Dokdo is Japanese territory because it was never mentioned in the treaty. But, it stated all lands taken, which included Dokdo.

The "it was never mentioned" thing can be challenged because if Dokdo was not mentioned and it was Japanese territory, then by default, all the Korean islands not mentioned must be Japanese territory as well. That is obviously not true. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean that it is automatically Japanese territory.

Liancourt Rocks is not the right name. Read the past archives. Good friend100 01:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know other Japanese editer's thiking.and this article's name is not relate opening paragraph.also article's name maight be changed.

see Rusk documents.from this documents,SF treaty don't address Takesima becouse The documents reject korean request that Japan should renounce islands of Takesima.do you understand ? and "all the Korean islands not mentioned must be Japanese territory as well."yes,that's right.you understood international law.the Korean territory must be ceded from Japan.meaning of "cede" is that both country accept that decision on international law.Thus SF treaty describe a Korean territory in detail.

"article 2 Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet. "

the meaning of above is ceding the territory that Japan amalgamated with Korea and include the island of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet in the ceded territory in especial.

do you understand ?--Forestfarmer 03:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

So, then, if the Rusk documents explicitly state that Dokdo is "Japanese territory", then it must be a powerful weapon for Japan, wouldn't it? If it is so powerful, then why did the vote go against your side?

"Both countries accept the international law"? What do you mean? If Korea accpeted the international law, then it would have given up Dokdo.

When Japan illegally annexed Korea (thanks to Yi Wan-yong 이완용, the Japanese sympathizer), they got all of Korea. Dokdo was Korean territory and after Japan lost WWII, the SF treaty forced Japan to return all territories they captured. I explained it above, just because it doesn't state Dokdo, it doesn't mean that Dokdo is Japanese territory. Then, by default, all the Korean islands not mentioned must still be Japanese territory.

If you still didn't know, there are thousands of islands of Korea's shores. Does that mean all these islands are Japanese territory? No. I don't think you understand what I am talking about.

The first paragraph should be left the way it is. It clearly states that Dokdo is under Korean control.

You should remember that Japan is merely claiming Dokdo for more economical reasons, rather than historical facts. There are possible gas reserves around Dokdo, and because Japan's industrialized centers consume a lot of energy, Dokdo is special to them. Check out sources from both Korean and Japanese sources. There are more Korean sources that date back further.

If you think you must even change the title of the article, then put up a vote. Good friend100 15:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"So, then, if the Rusk documents~"It is unrelated to the discussion.

""Both countries accept the international law"? What do you mean?"I don't write the sentence like this.

"When Japan illegally ~"you saw Rusk documents? Takesima was a territory of Japan.and SF treaty don't adress Takesima.because U.S.government thought that Takesima is a territory of Japan.over.Rusk documents Excerpt:

"The final treaty did not address Dokdo. Because Rusk rejected the South Korean request that Japan should renounce islands of Dokdo and Parangdo (an imaginary island) by as a consequence of the peace treaty"

"If you still didn't know,~"Japan ceded the territory that Japan annexed with Korea and include the island of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet in the ceded territory especially by SF treaty.

"You should remember that~"Both Countris are the oil crisis situations when thinking about an economical scale.but I'm not discussing a history of takesima.I am only writing Takeshima's current state. a current state is above writing so.

and election is not doing.--Forestfarmer 00:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-notice!

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.please read this discussion and discuss before revert
• Please do not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

Liancourt Rocks known in English are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is known as the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are known as Dokdo in, and Japan,The islets are known as Takesima in.Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles. Control of the islets by the South Korean government but a territory in Japan on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandon a territory of Korea,is not included The islets,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

opening paragraph (7)

Forestfarmer, in short, I think you're cling on to too a trivial thing to try to convert the opening paragraph in favor of Japan (and it is so now). Former version was way better and it was a result of good discussion. Why do you try to convert that? I never heard of so called rusk documents. Is it really so important evidence for you? and for others, too? I followed the link you had in your writing to see what this rusk documents is. Well indeed it says Liancourt Rocks is Japanese territory, but strangely enough, these days, nobody refers to this document regarding the Dokdo/takeshima problem. Korea has rich history regarding Dokdo since several hundreds years ago, and Japan might do so, too, but the document strangly denied all the connection of Korea to Dokdo. I don't understand this point and at best, this documet is simplay wrong in its argument for Japan. Current position of the US is neutral as you can see below;

"U.S. policy on the Dokdo/Takeshima Island issue has been and continues to be that the United States does not take a position on either Korea's claim or Japan's claim to the island. Our hope is that the two countries will resolve the issue amicably." (Joseph Yun, U.S. Embassy Political Minister-Counselor in Seoul comments on March 16, 2005) (from rusk documents)

If the US was right at that time, why does the US have this position now? And do you really think that this faulty small document has the whole authority to say once and for all about Dokdo? It looks like only you do so. Don't trivilize the whole context and history. If you didn't know about the current US position, it's your negligence and if you knew it before, your argument is not sincere by hiding the current US position. --ginnre 15:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

One more thing, Dokdo has NOT BEEN a dispute area until quite recently at least internationally and even in Japan. Most Japanese don't know about this Takeshima. Another Takeshima island in another Japanese prefacture is better known. It is the current Japan (or Koizumi goverment) to make fuss about it to MAKE Dokdo a disputed area. The desciption of CIA world fact book about Dokto has changed more and more in favor of Japan's view. It now says it is extensively disputed area, but it didn't decribe Dokdo that way before. In that sense, the name Liancourt rocks itself is favorable to Japan, because the island has been widely known as Dokdo before, if it were known. To get out of that name is already a success for Japan. That's why many Japanese are generaaly favorable to the name of Liancourt Rocks. They say it's neutral, and it seems so, but it IS NOT, as nobody calls Cheju islands Quelpart nowadays. Once it got out of Dokto, the next step from Liancourt Rocks to Takeshima is much easier. All this long effort would be meaningless if the rusk document were so decisive and strong evidence for Japan. They are not fool and they know the document is almost nothing, and that's why I never heard about the document. I ask to revert to the previous version before your one. --ginnre 15:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

So,I wouldn't discuss Takesima history.It don't fit opening paragraph.bcause that history is so long.I would like to discuss the position of takesima now.from that Point of view,The Rusk documents is very important.because the documents dominate Takeshima's belonging on SF treaty.and U.S. policy is not neutral but only not take a position.if it says briefly,U.S. is telling it not to involve U.S. in the Takeshima dispute.Is this difference understood? So well,but You need not understand.You must think that U.S. is neutral from your pont of veiw.I only writing that Takeshima is a territory in Japan and South Korea is only controling.when I see from the viewpoint of on international law.I think that thinking on international law is neutral.Do you understand my theory?

from your thinking,Is disputed area certified by public trust? It's strange. you are misunderstanding.because Takesima is disput area on internaitonal law when Korea declar Syngman Rhee line.

A lot of Japanese dislike pressing the proper noun,they are using,against the person who uses a different language.because it is not an act that the civilization country person does.Japanese dislike to be a barbarian.Thus Japanese use "Takesima" usually but they write "Liancourt Rocks" when Japanese write in the article.by the way,this page name is "Dokto" now.Do you understand what Japanese thinks of tKorean ?If South Korea is an advanced country, the action becomes an advanced country, too.--Forestfarmer 09:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I already understood what you mean. and I don't misunderstand much as you claim. What I try to tell you is that the rusk document is faulty one and you cannot regard it as a vital evidence for Japan to claim Dokdo her territory. I never heard that Japanese government uses it as an important evidence in favor of Japan. Have you heard about that? Why do you cling on to it? How many people around you support your view? Please answer thoese quetions otherwise I don't think your claim is any strong to change the opening paragraph. I told you that this document's decision was wrongly based on the claim that Korea never intended to claim the island to her. If it is wrong and it were so big a problem for Korea to show that Dokdo is her territory, Korea would have renegotiated with the US long time ago. They didn't and that means that document only does not make anything. I wanted answer for this quetion, but you are talking about other irrelevant things like babarian and civilization. So are you telling that Korea is a babarian country and Japan civilized one? That's old and well known (and very arrogant) view of some Japanese since Meiji era. They thought Japan came out of babarian state with western civilization and the other Asia remained babarian. I'm surprised that so many Japanse STILL think that way. If you still think so, I cannot help you. It won't help you much. Think about why Japanese are regarded as arrogant many times. --ginnre 14:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, that internatinal law you're refer to is very mysterious. As far as I know, Dokdo was not disputed until recently. Japan just kept it to herself that Dokdo is her territory. Korean government officially has been saying and says that Dokdo is not disputed. It is Japan to try to make it known as disputed are and these days she has some success. One thing is that almost forgotten name Liancourt Rocks revived and it looks like the name has been widely used, which is false! Please make sure this point. What international law you're talking about? Is there an international law that applies to Japan only? Tell me. --ginnre 14:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a mind to do you as the word play and you may not use ward "understand" easily. I understand that It is different that we agree with each insistence.

I reply from your questions.

1. 1. 1. about Rusk documents.your question is why I insist Rusk documents' meaning strongly and why other Japanese don't write about it.the answer is Rusk documents explaining Japanese normal insist.So,Takesima is a Japanese territory but Korea is controlling Takesima now illegally on international law.Korean don't accepted this insist.Thus Japanese insist SF treaty or Rusk documents.Usually Japanese insist SF treaty only.but I only complement SF treaty by Rusk docuemnts.
      2. about when Takesima dispute was begin.Korean write usually "Takesima is not disputed" or "Takesima have be disputed recently because Koizumi~".but Japanese think about above. Takesima is a Japanese territory but Korea is controlling Takesima now illegally on international law.but I think that you(usual Korean) may be not know international law.Japanese knew international law on meiji era.then The Japanese was done an awful thing. because Japanese don't knew international law.Thus Japanese know international law usually and Japanese know the country is done an awful when the country break international law. I think that Korean should know international law soon.
      3. about Takesima naming problem.third party should use third name when it is exist.a babarian should hunted.Dokto is not used widely.only your looking appropriate article.You should have broad outlook.

over--Forestfarmer 20:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You said 'a babarian should be hunted'? Now I'm starting to doubt your sanity. Is this the civilized way of thinking? I hope you didn't say it in earnest. Anyway, I did my research, and found out what this international law means. I'll tell you in a civilized manner how you are just unilateral und your view is not acceptable.

Now you step back from the rusk document to SF treaty. These two are very different. But you knew that it is easier to claim Dokdo to Japan based on the rusk document, although it is not well known and wrong, because it explicitly showed that the US denied the Korean request to include Dokdo in the SF treaty. It is, however, harder to claim Dokdo to Japan with SF treaty because Dokdo is not mentioned in the treaty. That's why you cling on to the rusk document. Am I right?

The SF treaty itself cannot be interpreted in a clear way, as you would know it. Let me refer to the references and in the article;

When the US composed the draft of the 'SF treaty' for the allies, it included substantive enactment that Dokdo (Liancourt rocks) was a Korean territory from the 1st (1947/3/20) to 5th (1949/11/2) draft. When noticing it, Japan lobbied through American counselor Sebald to provide Dokdo as a radar base and a meteorological observatory for the US Air forces. As a result, the US marked that Dokdo was not Korean territory but Japanese on in 6th draft (1949/12/29). However, other allies such as the Great Britain, New Zealand, and Australia did not agree to the 6th draft of the US. So Dokdo was not mentioned in 7th - 9th draft. The article 2 of 'SF treaty' ratified in SF in September 1951 stated that Japan recognized the independence of Korea and relegated all rights of sovereignty in Cheju-do, Geomun-do, and Ulleung-do to Korea. And Dokdo was left out of it. So, Japan has maintained that the Allies recognized Dokdo as a Japanese territory.

This claim by Japan is factually inaccurate. Since Dokdo is an annexed island to Ulleung-do, to record just Ulleung-do is that they recognized its annexed island Dokdo as a Korean territory automatically. As the same line, Cheju-do for example, has annexed island Udo and just record Cheju-do is that its annexed island Udo is automatically included as a Korean territory as well. Thus, the fact thousands of Korean islands were not specifically named in the treaty should not and does not mean they became the territories of Japan by default.

Moreover, since 'Agreement respecting the disposition of former Japanese territories' (1950), drafted in preparation for the SF treaty, stated Dokdo as a Korean territory in substantive enactment.

Accordingly, Dokdo clearly belongs to Korea under international law, and the international society except Japan has shared the same view.

Japan's lobby through Sebold was, as I mentioned earlier, deceitful in that Korea never intended to claim Dokdo to her territory and heavily influenced by Japan. Initially, the US didn't realize what the history of Dokdo has been like, so she just went ahead to put Dokdo to Japan influenced by the Japanese lobby, then with objection, stepped back to be neutral on that issue ever since. Furthermore, Korea at that time (1951) was in a war. She couldn't put an effort to deal with this problem. Is it still fair to claim Dokdo to Japan based on the SF treaty?

ポ―レストパ―マさん, もういいです. やめてください. --ginnre 02:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (8)

hi "ギンレ"さん,My handle name is "フォレストファーマー" and is not "ポ―レストパ―マ". Such a thing is trivial but I would answer your insistence. about "Takesima" naming,third party should use third name when it is exist.this simple insistence is not understand by yours.Janpanese would use "Takesima" but the discussion doesn't advance. The Japanese is submitting the compromise proposal without the method. but Korean is writing alway only "Dokto""Dokto""Dokto" . This doing is suitable for calling "barbrian".

about "Rusk documnents".So you wrtten is right.from "Rusk documents" and SF treaty,Takesima is a territory of Japan.ThusTakesima is a Japanese territory on international law.and South Korean President Syngman Rhee disregard it and declared the Syngman Rhee line and the sovereignty over Takesima illegally on international law.Thus " but Korea is controlling Takesima now illegally on international law."

about Takesima belonging on SF treaty,Rusk document

Rusk documents#Location on Internationa law "It is confirmed that Takesima is a territory of Japan by the draft on December 29 ,1949 and it is confirmed that Takeshima is not included in the abandonment territory by The Rusk documents.Because treaty is interpreted as the things that It is necessary to interpret triaty in the meaning of a word at that time. (Article 31 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties). Precedent of International Law"Legal Status of Eastern Greenland."Permanent Court of International Justice gave "The natural meaning of the term is its geographical meaning as shown in the maps""

It is thought that it is not possible to interpret it of having abandoned Takeshima's title including it from the abandonment of Dagelet, and not having the fact that makes Takeshima Dagelet in an attached chart of SCAPIN at that time and an attached chart of the peace treaty draft of Article 2 of the Treaty of San Francisco in Dagelet.--Forestfarmer 07:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

If you insist, the SF treaty could be interpreted as you insist, but it can be interpreted as I wrote in a as convincing way as you argued, too. Considering that Japan lobbied hard, in a deceitful way, to delete Dokdo from the treaty draft while Republic of Korea just formed, having not much power and order after that long exploitation of Japan, and was in a war, I don't know how valid Japanese claim is. Please be aware that your insertion is unilateral (and arrogant considering the history) and cannot be much accepted outside of Japan. Is it a civilized world to accept such a claim based on deceitful efforts? In that sense, your claim that Korea is violating international law cannot be used to change the opening paragraph. It's that simple.--ginnre 16:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Another thing about who is trying to make Dokdo disputed area. I checked Dokdo article in English wikipedia and 竹島 (島根県) in Japanese wikipedia. Since 1965, when Korea and Japan signed the Basic Relations Treaty, there has not been happening much regarding Dokdo for 30 years until the mid-ninties when Japan started to make real fuss about Dokdo, internationally. Actually there has not been much to write about that period. It is current and recent Japanese government who wanted to make Dokdo a disputed area, and in the course of that the seemingly harmless name of Liancourt Rocks revived. With Liancourt Rocks, Japan has nothing to lose but to gain, and Korea has nothing to gain but lose. Actually the name Liancourt Rocks has stong tie with Japan in old days. Japanese fishermen sometimes used the name already more than 100 years ago after some Japanese authority named it after a French Whale ship, Liancourt, pronounced as 'lyan-ko' or 'li-an-ku-ru'. (1849年：フランスの捕鯨船Liancourt号が竹島を発見し、リアンクール島と名付ける（以後、日本では、りゃんこ島、リアンクール岩とも呼ばれる). Takeshima was used after that name. So for Japanese, Liancourt Rocks is another familiar name for the islands. Maybe it is related to this Japanese ability of easily incorporating foreign words into their language. On the other hand, Dokdo was never called after the French whale ship in Korea. Dokdo has been just Dokdo. Maybe you knew that point already, so please stop pretending neutrality of that name. And please stop talking about Babarian. It just makes you ridiculous and, if serious, Japan imperialistic.

フォレストファーマーさん, もういいです. やめてください. --ginnre 18:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

ギンレさん。日本語が難しいなら書かなくてもいいですよ。貴方の脳内ではポートレストパーマ＝フォレストファーマー＝forestfarmerなんでしょ。程度が知れますよ。

about "Takesima" disput,My insistence is based on International law(Vienna Convention on the Law Treaties and Precedent of CIJ). what is your insistence based on ?

and civilized countries follow only international law in usual.but If you had admited that Korea is not civilized,I should think that international law of view is not neutral.

about Takesima disput.Do you know "Japan-Korea Fishery Agreement"? Takesima disput was shelving on the agreement for the 30 years but The Takeshima dispute only came to light because of breached the agreement.

about "Takesima" naming.Do not enumerate it as an example of the name at that time on 100 previous states of year or more.Japanese not usually say "リャンコ岩"or"リアンクール岩".

Think in century of how many used about the name. Japanese gain nothing and Korean gain nothing.Are you dissatisfied with it?I think that it is neutral. --Forestfarmer 07:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, to be short, I based on that Japan influenced the US in a not sincere way in deleting Dokdo from the SF treaty. Korea could not participate in drafting the treaty. More importantly, even without this serious flaw in the treaty, the treay can be interpreted more than one way according to international laws. So your claim is unilateral and cannot be accepted much outside of Japan.

By the way, I don't want to write any more on this issue because it seems that you don't understand fully what I have written. For example, I never mentionened that Korea is not civilized. What I meant was your babarian/civilized-mentioning is dangerous thinking and sounds ridiculous. If you meant it seriously, what's worse is you're admitting that Japan is still imperialistic as she was before WWII. Do you understand what I mean? It's like Nazi was civilized and Jews were babarian. So finally, all I can say to you is

フォレストファーマーさん, もういいです. やめてください. --ginnre 13:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

above Japanese translation "Dear Forestfarmer,I'm contented.Please stop it. "

write it ,what Do I stop ?--Forestfarmer 14:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop repeating the same thing over and over. --ginnre 17:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

you are lacked to writing and write it.I have no answer.Moreover, you write and are defeated. --Forestfarmer 19:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

So,I think that your thinking is natural Korean thinking.I am deplorable but it is not Korean end and new korean opening.Japanese had been done an awful thing. because Japanese didn't know international law.and South Korea is disregarding International Law now.do you think that Korea become ? The result of the Takeshima dispute is understood.but whenever South Korea makes noise, foolish Japan makes it to putting off.because Japan profits by the bluster of South Korea.The reason is as shown in the above-mentioned.Korean international credibility is dropped whenever South Korea makes noise. but If South Korea was able to catch this fact, Japan will make South Korea important more.It might possibly be felt the threat.you are a civilization person because you anger as my writing "barb*rian".However, when the Japanese give over it here, the South Korean is not benefited.I don't know Japanese government think and Korean government think.

this is my thinking.

Korea government broke international law because Korea government want to Takeshima by all means.then Japanese knew the fear of beaking international law.but Japanse can not care less about Takesima in 1950.and The two countries made the fisheries agreement in 1960. Takesima disput was shelving on the agreement for the 30 years.then Japanese government think that Korean international credibility is dropped whenever time is time passes.but Korean government think that It is necessary to solve the problem ahead of time.but With the opinion of the two countries differs.

If this thing grows,Japan gain. The road only remains Koera to resign Takeshima.--Forestfarmer 15:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

What you said is just only your(Korean) POV. What is "not sincere way"? Please, point it out concretely, and show us the reference. Korea required to write Dokdo in SF treaty at the stage of a preliminary draft. However, it was refused to the US. You know, it is Rusk documents. Gegesongs 14:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

foolish become silent.I can not understand your writing.--Forestfarmer 15:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Gegesongs, this is what I wrote above ;

Japan's lobby through Sebold (to delete Dokdo from the treaty) was, as I mentioned earlier, deceitful in that Korea never intended to claim Dokdo to her territory and heavily influenced by Japan. Initially, the US didn't realize what the history of Dokdo has been like, so she just went ahead to put Dokdo to Japan influenced by the Japanese lobby, then with objection, stepped back to be neutral on that issue ever since. (ref 9 in the article )

Considering that Japan lobbied hard, in a deceitful way, to delete Dokdo from the treaty draft while Republic of Korea just formed, having not much power and order after that long exploitation of Japan, and was in a war, I don't know how valid Japanese claim is.---ginnre 17:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (9)

where is the evidence and the location on International Law? ginnre ,are you foolish man also ?--Forestfarmer 17:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-notice again!--Forestfarmer 20:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

changing point

• naming Liancourt Rocks
• POV on internatinal law --Forestfarmer 21:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.Read this discussion and discuss before revert
• not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

Liancourt Rocks are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is known as the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are written Dokdo(独島) in, and Japan,The islets are written Takesima(竹島) in.Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles. Control of the islets by the South Korean government but a territory in Japan on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandoned a territory of Korea,was not included The islets,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

You're just make fun of yourself. I pointed out why your claim cannot be used to change the opening paragraph many times. But you just don't listen (or respond to those points) and repeat what you have been repeating. Who gave you the authority to notice like this? you really don't know how arrogant and childish you are? And you think you defeated me. For heaven's sake! I didn't fight against you. Don't repeat your notice. Otherwise I need to find a way to ban you from writing in this article. You're just vandalizing. Evidences are enough on this page. ---ginnre 20:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

sorry,I wrote above changing point.and old ver also too but To tell the truth, the change point has already been mentioned more above.who is doing childlike act(^_^;) --Forestfarmer 21:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Please think about this before you repeat your chidlish act.

The Cairo Conference of 1943 stipulated that "Japan will be expelled from all territories which she has taken by violence and greed ." Considering Japan´s methods, there can be little doubt that Japan´s annexation of Dokdo in 1905 (along with all other Korean territories by 1910) falls within the definition of territories taken by greed, as defined by the Cairo Declaration. If Japan believes that its methods in acquiring Dokdo in 1905 were legitimate, then Japan must believe that it can still, by the same logic, claim sovereignty over the rest of the Korean Peninnsula... ---ginnre 20:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but The Cairo Conference do not have the force of law on international law.it is only press release--Forestfarmer 21:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-notice again and again

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.Read this discussion and discuss before revert
• not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

changing point

• naming Liancourt Rocks
• POV on internatinal law

Liancourt Rocks are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is written the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are written Dokdo(独島) in, and Japan,The islets are written Takesima(竹島) in.Central News Agency of North Korea refers to The islets as Tok Islet in its English-language articles. Control of the islets by the South Korean government but a territory in Japan on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandoned a Korean territory ,was not included The islets,by Treaty of Peace With Japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

May I apply for the change in opning paragraph if there is no complaint any further?--Forestfarmer 15:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. This discussion has become too long because of lack of understandings from both sides. But the opening paragraph must be left because the information is true, and even if it is POV, the fact that Japan is merely claiming it is true as well. Good friend100 16:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

you think this is only Japanse POV but South Korea broked International Law in Takeshima disput. So as the result reluctant.This is international POV and neutral POV.--Forestfarmer 02:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yor're hopeless. You may use your opening paragraph somewhere in the Japanese goverment's official website, but not here. Don't repeat your childish act. Ginnre 15:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.--Forestfarmer 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is my feeling? It is your inability to understand what I have written, not my feeling. Ginnre 01:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

hi baby.when you insist,you bing evidence usually.write Japanese goverment's official website link.and for comparison, Korean goverment's official website link too.--Forestfarmer 10:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (10)

Write sentences after you thinks how Japanese Government takes care with the South Korea government.I write once more Korean international credibility is dropped whenever South Korea makes noise.I think that Japanese Government doesn't pursue and attack a retreating enemy.The time that it seriously conferred by the Agreement had been good.--Forestfarmer 00:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have decided to myself I don't like arguments. We don't need to call others "baby" Forestfarmer. "Korean international credibility is dropped whenever South Korea makes noise" What does that mean? Please use correct English. Good friend100 00:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I had writen above.but Express me because I repeat it.now Korea is breaking international law about Takesima disput.--Forestfarmer 07:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

South Korea is breaking international law? Which one? --Zonath 08:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I had writen on above.but Express me because I repeat it.Tkakesima is a japanese territory.but korea is controlling illegally on international law.--Forestfarmer 08:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I see some stuff about the Rusk Documents and the Treaty of San Fransisco. However, neither document conclusively settles the question of whether or not Dokdo/Takeshima is Japanese territory. Even if Japan was allowed to retain a claim over the islets by their omission from the Treaty of San Francisco, such claim would only be as valid as it was prior to the occupation of Korea. The United States could not unilaterally grant the territory to one side or another, as far as I know. If Japan truly had a valid claim prior to its occupation of Korea, then the islets would in fact belong to Japan, but that remains more or less an open question. Considering that there has been no ruling on the matter by any international legal body -- the ICJ, the UN, or otherwise -- and the fact that pretty much every country in the world treats the dispute as a matter to be settled between Japan and South Korea, it would be extremely inaccurate to state the assertion that South Korea occupies the islands in violation of international law as fact. Nor should we be placing such unproven legal assertions in the introduction of the article. To do so would be more or less equivalent to writing a Misplaced Pages article on Tom DeLay where the introduction stated that he was guilty. --Zonath 10:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write by itemizing it

You are misunderstanding it.Takesima is a japanese territory conclusively on international law.the ICJ, the UN, or otherwise start to think from it.--Forestfarmer 14:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, that's a false statement. As long as no authority on international law conclusively recognizes Japan's claim to the islets, it is a complete error to state as fact an assertion that the islets belong to Japan 'according to international law', as it is an error to assert that Korea's occupation of the islets is in violation of international law. In the absence of some sort of judgment on the matter, the assertion of illegality is simply not fact -- it's POV. Since you asked for an itemized list:

• No violation of international law on Korea's part has been brought before any international body, much less proven.
• In the absence of such judgment, we should treat any allegation of illegality as a POV assertion rather than as a fact, and any mention of it should be stated as such.
• As the opening paragraph is meant to be a summary of the article, such a POV argument should not be included in it. Rather, arguments for (or against) Japan should be included within the body of the article, not the introduction.
• Please note that I am not arguing the underlying validity of Japan's claims here, nor is this really the place to do so. I am merely suggesting that to include a very specific allegation in the introduction, the party wishing to include that allegation should bear the burden of proving it. In the absence of some sort of actual judgment by the ICJ, the UN, or other international body that would have jurisdiction, I simply do not see how such an allegation can be proven, especially if we are to abide by the policy of WP:NOR.
• Perhaps more to the point, in order to get this page unprotected and modify the first paragraph, there must be some sort of consensus on what that paragraph should look like. As written, your paragraph will never achieve that consensus, for reasons listed above as well as elsewhere on this talk page and its archives. --Zonath 19:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

please write more readable English.your English is too dirty to read for ususl plople.but express me because I reply you.1st,Takesima is a Japanese territory by SF treaty.but What is the authority that Takeshima makes a South Korea territory now? SF treaty is international law.but South Korean President's declaration doesn't have the meaning on International Law. 2nd it is good to you itemizing it.but meaning is not itemized.you should put one meaning in each item.and you should put short title in each item like "about Takesima naming".Are you a school child ? but school child would write more readable sentence.

• "No violation~" Takesima is a Japanese territory.but Korea is controlling it now.it is a violation of international.
• "In the absence~"illegal controlling is a breach of international law.and Do you think international law is not NPOV ? if so,Korean became a barbarian.
• "As the opening paragraph~" Do you want not to write contralling of Takesima on opening paragraph? If you think so,I may agree it.
• "Please note~"same as above.
• "Perhaps more to the point~" you think that I am neutral for a long time if you read all this section.--Forestfarmer 22:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do not resort to personal attacks and childish name-calling if you wish to be taken seriously in this discussion. And rather than attacking the struture of my arguments, please do take the time to read and understand them. Your purely emotional and reactionary stance on these arguments does nothing to refute them, but rather simply serves to clutter this talk page with meaningless and pointless debate.

• First of all, please read and understand WP:NOR. The fact that you use the San Francisco treaty as 'proof' of Japan's title to the islets smacks of original research, since it takes a non-obvious inference in order to draw that conclusion (indeed, Dokdo is not even mentioned by the treaty). Allow me to illustrate the difference between an obvious inference and a non-obvious one:

• UN resolution 1029 specifies that Korea's occupation of Dokdo is illegal. --> Korea's occupation of Dokdo violates international law. (Obvious and direct inference.)
• The treaty of San Fransico settled the issue because it makes no reference to Dokdo. Since Japan never formally relinquished its claim to the islets, (and the Rusk documents show that the US believed that Korea never claimed the islets), Japan is the rightful owner of Takeshima. (Non-obvious inference.)

The difference between these two assertions is that the first would be easily verifiable (if true), while the second cannot be verified, and is in fact debated between more capable legal scholars than us. The first would be acceptible as a statement of fact, while the second would not be. In the first, we can easily go from A to B in a single step, while in the second example, getting from A to B requires us to go through C (the Rusk documents) as well as accept assumption D (that Japan had a legitimate claim on the islets prior to WWII) as true.

• In addition, all of this must be secondary to the fact that virtually nobody on this talk page seems to agree with your assertions, nor do they appear to approve of your proposal for an opening paragraph. We should be attempting to achieve a consensus on this page, rather than engaging in ultimately pointless debates over the ownership of these particular islets. As long as you continue to put forth a suggestion that appears to be in contravention of Misplaced Pages policies (on a number of fronts), any consensus we reach will most likely not include your proposal in any form. --Zonath 00:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion was firmly caught.but Do you want to be disregarded? you have no question.--Forestfarmer 01:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (11)

I don't understand your claims of "Korea broke international law". What international law?

I just copied the below statement. Because its written in a place hard to find.

If the international decisionmaking sides with the Japanese, then how come the territory hasn't been turned over to the Japanese side. They had 50 years to do it. The reason why it is hard for Japan to control and own Dokdo is because Japan's historical claim is weaker than Korea's. Everything doesn't revolve around the "modern times", as everyone is using Japan's world influence to their advantage. Also, the Takeshima side refers to only the international court of justice since they are more supportive of Japan. World history never began in 1910. And the usage of only the modern times shows a ton of Japan supporting facts.

Just because history is history, that doesn't mean the facts are history. Facts from history are true and avoiding Dokdo's history around Korea and Japan does not mean the events during the modern times will help Japan's claim on Dokdo.

Also, just because the San Francisco Treaty doesn't mention Dokdo that doesn't mean Japan is the rightful holder. I suppose then, every single island in Korea must still be Japanese territory, since they were not mentioned. There are thousands of islands. Does this make those islands Japanese territory? The San Francisco Treaty stated that Japan must return all of their territories they invaded and conquered. This means that every part of Korea must be returned to Korea. Good friend100 02:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

read this section at all.you find it in above.--Forestfarmer 02:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

but I would answer because you are writing seriously.Takesima is a Japanese territory but Korea is controlling now it.it is a violation of international.

Takesima is not ceted in the SF treaty.it is the reason that Takesima is a Japanese territory.Takesima is controled of force for ten years.The Takeshima problem is shelved for thirty year and the dispute came also to light reacent ten years.Read this section at all if you want to know details. history is too long to write opening paragraph.--Forestfarmer 09:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

You must stop this political discussion. "The only road that remains for Korea is to resign Takeshima". Who says? Japan? This is irrevelant to this article and your discussions are not helping anybody. All I see is a bunch of Japan POV statements that are written by you. >Forestfarmer Good friend100 02:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought so.and I had written "I think" in there.--Forestfarmer 02:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-notice again and again

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it and write example.
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.Read this discussion and discuss before revert
• not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

changing point

• naming Liancourt Rocks
• POV on internatinal law
• The description related to North Korea is deleted.
• "Written" is rewritten in "Known".

Liancourt Rocks are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is written the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are known as Dokdo(独島) in, and Japan,The islets are known as Takesima(竹島) in.the South Korean government is controlling the islets but the islets is a Japanese territory on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandoned a Korean territory ,was not included The islets,by treaty of Peace With japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

May I apply for the change in opning paragraph if there is no complaint any further--Forestfarmer 11:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• I strongly oppose any further attempts by Forestfarmer to change the opening paragraph of this article. Not only has he shown that he has no basic command of the English language, but he has also shown that he has no willingness or ability to compromise or to act reasonably in order to achieve a consensus on this issue. --Zonath 11:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do not resort to personal attacks.

• anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it--Forestfarmer 14:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Your paragraph is biased. For reasons stated on this page, as well as the talk archives, your paragraph goes against any sort of consensus that has been reached thus far. Until you modify your paragraph along the lines discussed above, it will never reach the consensus necessary to be included in this article.
• You have shown a basic inability to compromise. Your only purpose here appears to be to push your agenda. The above paragraph appears to have undergone no signifigant changes, despite vigorous opposition and countless suggestions for improvement.
• Your paragraph contains unproven assertions that violate WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, amongst other Misplaced Pages policies. For reasons outlined above by myself and other commentators, the supposed 'facts' contained in your paragraph violate Misplaced Pages policies. Please read and understand those policies to understand why your paragraph is unacceptible.
• Your paragraph will never achieve consensus without modification. For the above reasons, you must modify your paragraph, removing the assertions that so many on this page find unacceptible in order to achieve the necessary consensus. Please take the time to re-read the suggestions contained in the arguments above and be realistic in your expectations of what you might be allowed to include in your paragraph. --Zonath 19:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

please write each example.because I don't understand where this "opening paragraph" is wrong.--Forestfarmer 05:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• "is written the East Sea only in The South Korea" - Blatantly false, violating WP:V and WP:NPOV, as well as beside the point. 'East Sea' is also used in several maps and publications used outside Korea.
• "the islets is a Japanese territory on international law" - Please read the above discussion. I have outlined several times why this violates WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. If you can point to an international agreement or to a decision by a court of international jurisdiction that unequivocally states (in more or less these words), "The Liancourt Rocks are Japanese territory", then I will retract my objection to this.
• "The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandoned a Korean territory ... Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration." - There is abundant evidence that Korea has considered Dokdo to be part of its territory since at least 500 years ago. One could just as easily say that this dispute did not somehow begin with the 'one-sided' South Korean declaration, but with Japan's one-sided annexation of the islets in 1905. Again, these statements also violate WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR

I'm sure there's more that's wrong with your paragraph, but I simply no longer have the inclination to continue arguing with someone who refuses to compromise and who willfully disregards any opinion in order to push his own POV. By all means, if you believe your paragraph to be up to the standards of Misplaced Pages, submit it to a consensus poll and let us all have a vote on it. --Zonath 06:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

about East sea,I will rewrite "is known as the East Sea only in The South Korea"

about POV on international law,You are misunderstanding it.You think that you may observe it only in front of court but a usual country has to observe international law.

about lree line,The declaration is one-sided because it is not accepted by what kind of country.and when mid of WWII,Takesima is a Japanese territory.

"I'm sure~" I saw that you want to vote this "Opening Paragraph".--Forestfarmer 19:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

opening paragraph (12)

"The islet's title is declared by Korea before Japan abandonment territory of Korea,is not included Dokto,by Treaty of Peace With Japan. Thus This dispute began since Korean declaration."

This is POV. Not only are there grammatical errors, Korea didn't start the dispute. It was rightfully given to Korea with the conclusion of the San Francisco Treaty. Although the treat never mentioned Dokdo it forced Japan to relinquish all its territories, which included Dokdo as well.

I suggest keeping the current paragraph right now. Good friend100 05:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I might misunderstand your sentence.but I reply it.I think that you might want to write "korea declared all right about Dokdo before Japan concludes SF treaty.therefore Dokdo is a Korean territory" but the declaration is not accepted by what any other countries.therefore the declaration have no meaning on international law.--Forestfarmer 19:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I never insisted changing the paragraph. I suggested to keep the current paragraph. Good friend100 23:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I rewrite problems of current ver.
Dokdo are islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea) currently controlled and administered by South Korea, but claimed by Japan (where they are known as Takeshima).The islets are also known as the Liancourt Rocks in English. The Korean Central News Agency of North Korea refers to Dokdo as Tok Islet in its English-language articles, and supports control of the islands by "the Korean nation".

• "Dokdo are islets"(Liancourt Rocks known in English )not NPOV
  
• "Sea of Japan (East Sea)"(The East Sea known only in Korea)not NPOV
  
• currently controlled and administered by South Korea(Liancourt Rocks is a territory in Japan on international law and the area is disputed on international law when the Syngman Rhee line was declared)not NPOV
• supports control of the islands by "the Korean nation"(Please do not write happily Rogue state's supports.South Korea seems this kind.and they wrotet "supports control" without writing, "supports administered".Do you think this meaning?I cautioned,and I would like to delete.If you want to leave it,I don't edit.I think that South Korea becomes the puppet of North Korea.)my caution

South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

• It is historically opposite.I have not edited it yet.not NPOV--Forestfarmer 23:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-notice again and again

• If anyone want to argue this opning paragraph,write CONCRETELY by itemizing it and write example.
• I don't disscuss with a kid.If you cannot concretely explain your feelings.Tt is ONLY YOUR FEELING.
• It is vandalism to revert this opening paragraph after to rewrite this opening paragraph.Read this discussion and discuss before revert
• not edit the sentence discussed with this discussion.

changing point

• naming Liancourt Rocks
• POV on internatinal law
• The description related to North Korea is deleted.
• "Written" is rewritten in "Known".
• East sea is known only in The South Korea.

Liancourt Rocks are islets.The islets are in the Sea of Japan,is known as the East Sea only in The South Korea.The islets are a disputed area between The South Korea,The islets are known as Dokdo(独島) in, and Japan,The islets are known as Takesima(竹島) in.the South Korean government is controlling the islets but the islets is a Japanese territory on international law. The islets are declared one-sidedly by a Suth Korean president as a territory before Japan abandoned a Korean territory ,was not included The islets,by treaty of Peace With japan.Thus This dispute began since The South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

May I apply for the change in opning paragraph if there is no complaint any further--Forestfarmer 06:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

sigh.. If we're going to actually debate this, let's at least clear up the grammar a bit...

Liancourt rocks are islets in the Sea of Japan, which is known as the East Sea only in South Korea. The islets are a disputed area between South Korea, where the islets are known as Dokdo, and Japan, where the islets are known as Takeshima. The South Korean government controls the islets, but the islets are Japanese territory according to international law. The islets were unilaterally declared South Korean territory by a South Korean president before Japan abandoned Korean territory. The islets were not included in the peace treaty between Japan and Korea. Thus, this dispute began with the South Korean declaration. South Korea classifies the islets as part of Ulleung County, Noth Gyeonsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

Okay... Here's a basic run-down of what needs improvement:

• Sea of Japan, which is known as the East Sea only in South Korea - Please see: WP:Naming conventions (Korean). If you want to change the convention away from Sea of Japan (East Sea), then please start there, not here.
• disputed area - There are many people who have claimed that this violates NPOV policy, and it might be difficult gaining any consensus because of that. I'm not saying not to use it, but considering the sentiment here, you might take into consideration some of those opinions if you want people to support your paragraph.
• islets are Japanese territory according to international law - This violates WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:NPOV. See the above discussion for why.
• unilaterally declared - Simply not going to get into the article as written. South Korean POV is that the islets were not 'unilaterally declared' as South Korean territory by Pres. Rhee because the islets already were Korean territory.
• This dispute began... - Probably violates WP:NPOV, seeing as how it's blatant finger-pointing.

If you want to apply for the change, go ahead, but seeing as how most of us have to approve the change before it goes into the article, you might consider listening to a few of the arguments in this (rather too long) section, and change your proposed paragraph accordingly. --Zonath 08:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

OK,I would discuss with you.

• about Sea of Japan,I would rewrite "sea of Japan(east sea)" but after all of this opening paragraph,I would discuss about it.
• about "disput","japanese teritory on international","unilaterally declared" and"This dispute began" I would propose either things cut down.

when The following thing is not accepted by you,I don't know after it.

this is new ver.--Forestfarmer 10:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Liancourt rocks are islets in the Sea of Japan(East Sea). The islets are a claimed area by South Korea, where the islets are known as Dokdo, and Japan,where the islets are known as Takeshima.South Korea classifies the islets as part of Ulleung County, Noth Gyeonsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.

May I apply for the change in opning paragraph if there is no complaint any further--Forestfarmer 10:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dokdo vs. Lioncourt Rocks

The names of places, like words in a language, changes through time by the people who use them. If anyone thinks old British naval charts should be the standard of "naming" in English wiki, I'd point to Formosa as an example. The ROC government changed it to Taiwan, so today it's shown as Taiwan on all maps. Dokdo is obviously under Korean control (or occupation) today and the people living there don't call it Lioncourt rocks. In time their claim will be solidfield (so long as they can keep the Japanese at bay by force or diplomacy) and the island will become Dokdo on our maps. -- Adeptitus 23:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Vienna is not on any Austrian map. As there are rival names for the islets the one which best complies with the WP:NPOV policy is "Liancourt Rocks" as by using it Misplaced Pages was not presenting either a Korean or Japanese point of view. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

you might want to take it up at Talk:Senkaku Islands; it is the disparity that sparked the move discussion. btw, you're right, i defer to the bbc; although it's obvious from english google searches and even bbc's own internal searches, i can't find a quote "sometimes called" to cite, so your wording stays. Appleby 00:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The "Liancourt Rocks" is now under dispute with two countrys. By armed invasions of Korea (or other countrys) the sovereignty issue can't be changed under international law now. Senkaku Island has been under Japanse control for over 100years without invasions, but the "Liancourt Rocks" were invaded about 50 years ago. There is clear difference between two facts.Mythologia 12:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You're trying to argue the merits of Japan's claims. That's not what's needed for writing an encyclopedia article. We don't have to decide who's right, just describe the dispute. --Reuben 21:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The purpose of the wiki article should be to present the dispute. However I'd go as far as saying that whoever is currently in control of the territory, by force or other means, gets to name it, and that name should be the primary name used, with disputed names listed afterwards.

Like: Senkaku (Diaoyutai), Falklands (Malvinas), Kuril Islands (Chishima/Kuriru islands), Xizang (Tibet), Navassa (Lanavaz), etc.

The reality is that whoever is in de facto control of the territory, gets to do whatever the heck they want with it so long as they can maintain their control, and anyone else who makes a claim is just a pretender. Look at the Falklands as an example. The Argentines have been claiming it for over 200 years, and had their navy been strong enough to whack the British in 1982, the island would be named Las Malvinas today, and all Britons would've been expelled and shipped back to the UK.

Might doesn't always make right, but it does make ownership -- keep it if you can. -- Adeptitus 10:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Spain is Spain in English, France is France in English, and Germany is Germany in English. Not one of those counries use those words to describe themselves. They can all do "whatever the heck they want with" withing their territory, but they can not force the name of their country in to the English Language. WP:NC common usage does not trump WP:NPOV --Philip Baird Shearer 10:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should change the article's name back to Liancourt Rocks. We had a poll to change it to Dokdo and thats what happened. Good friend100 12:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I am disappointed with reading these childish discussion. Why those supposed Koreans demand "Dokdo" for the title so strongly that it breaks the neutral of wikipedia? Because, Korea is right and Japan is wrong? Nonsense. From Japan, Korea is wrong and Japan is right. Unfortunately, many other users do not have enough information more than wiki has. Changing the title so often just confuse the users. I think what Wikipedians have to do is to write scientific truth and not confusing users. We should change the name to "Lioncourt Rocks" so that no aggressive Korean and Japanese may change the title for their each opinion. Ladycasanova 14:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

since the name here was changed to be consistent with other articles, it would be more productive to continue the discussion of the reasoning at, for example, Talk:Senkaku Islands. Appleby 14:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ladycasanova: Try reading the past archives first. We had a poll. Good friend100 21:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

all new comers, read my writing in 'opening parapraph' section. Liancourt Rocks is NOT neutral and it cannot be the English name for the island, either. There was a long and well discussed history about the name. ginnre 16:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I would advise you.more read 'opning paragraph'.and feel meaning of my sentence.I only write it to fool.--Forestfarmer 07:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You might as well explain what you wrote to all the Takeshima side since they are lobbying for at least Liancourt Rocks to gain a foothold on Dokdo. >ginnre Good friend100 01:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Quotation from my discussion with ginnre in "opening paragraph"

"about "Takesima" naming.Do not enumerate it as an example of the name at that time on 100 previous states of year or more.Japanese not usually say "リャンコ岩"or"リアンクール岩". Think in century of how many used about the name. Japanese gain nothing and Korean gain nothing.Are you dissatisfied with it?I think that it is neutral. --Forestfarmer 07:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC) "--Forestfarmer 02:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Liancourt Rocks" is POV because even though it is a neutral name for some neutral observers or foreigners, it doesn't fully represent Korea's control over the island currently. Also, "Dokdo" has been in use for a far longer time than "Liancourt Rocks". The Misplaced Pages policy states that the most common name should be used (although this is not always true in other articles) Good friend100 23:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Takesima is a disputed area.Third party should use third name when it is exist.and usual English speaker cannot recognize Dokto sa ilands.do you think about it?--Forestfarmer 15:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose we could always use Hornet Rocks, which, for all its other faults, is at least a neutral name inasmuch as none of the powers that have actually attempted to control Dokdo have attempted to use it. But that would be fairly silly. And as for usual English speakers not being able to recognize 'dokdo' as a name belonging to islets, 'Liancourt Rocks' isn't a whole lot more descriptive. At any rate, the issue is moot, being that there's already been a recent consensus poll on this very issue, the result of which was to move the article here. I suppose another poll could be held eventually, but I don't think you're going to get a whole lot of support from most of the people who take the time to actually comment here, seeing as one has been held (with pretty poor behavior on the part of certain parties) very recntly. --Zonath 21:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know Hornet Rocks.please account for it in deteil.and usual english speaker understands that 'Liancourt' Rocks is an island than the 'Dokdo'. --Forestfarmer 03:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

>>Forestfarmer - Hornet Rocks: (Quoting from the article) "In 1849, a French whaler from Le Havre by the name of Le Liancourt, named the islets "Rochers de Liancourt" in 1849. In 1854, the Russians called them the "Manalai and Olivutsa Rocks" upon their first sighting and, in 1855, the English started calling them the "Hornet Rocks"." Hornet Rocks was just another obscure name used for the islets -- the 'proper English name', I suppose. I believe someone might have broached using it for the title of the article in the past, but it was deemed much too obscure a name to actually use. --Zonath 08:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

U.S.government used Liancourt Rocks in the Rusk documents but why Do you put "Hornet Rocks" in this section?--Forestfarmer 08:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

"Hornet Rocks" would be an even more neutral name than Liancourt Rocks, as well as have the benefit of being an English name rather than a French one. However, I was using it to illustrate that the most neutral name is not always the best one. --Zonath 09:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Search only for pages written in English:"Hornet Rocks"72

if it is usual in English.I would find more homepage in google.--Forestfarmer 09:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Typing in "Dokdo" on Google gives you 638,000 results while typing in "Liancourt Rocks" gives you 81,500. Google is not always accurate, but you can still see how Dokdo is used more than "Liancourt Rocks". "Takeshima" results are 593,000. Good friend100 03:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Search only for pages written in English:"Takeshima" 347,000

Search only for pages written in English:"Dokdo" 148,000

Search only for pages written in English:"Liancourt Rocks" 17,700

from your theory,the ilands name in English is "Takeshima".--Forestfarmer 05:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Note that a large number of the "Takeshima" hits are as a family name, a restaurant, and an unrelated island somewhere else in Japan. (I think the kanji are different, but the pronunciation and Romanization are identical). Also, please don't forget the variable Romanization of Korean words: "Dokdo" is only one possible spelling. Tokto and Tokdo must also be considered. You can find the results of a more careful Google test in the archive. --Reuben 06:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Search only for pages written in English:"Tokto" -"Dokdo" -"Tokdo"15,800

Search only for pages written in English:"Tokdo" -"Dokdo" -"Tokto" 27,600

Search only for pages written in English:"Takeshima" -"restaurant"332,000

if it is added,the ilands' name is "Takeshima".and Do you recognize "Dokdo" is not only writed in English ?--Forestfarmer 07:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

a population of japanese "竹島" family is 16,600(1103th) .if The person of all "竹島" families in Japan　have own homepage in English,"Takesima" is more popular than "Dokdo" in English.--Forestfarmer 05:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that both sides' opinions were exhausted.and I insist to move this article title "Dokdo" to "Liancourt Rocks" because "Dokdo" is not easily understood as ilands by usual English user.adding, "Dokdo" is not popular than "Takesima" in English google.I want to move it to "Takesima" but third party should use third name if it exist. "Liancourt Rocksis" is third name enough. It is NPOV. I have more things that I want to write. but I don't write any more because I think it may be my POV.I would request this move.Don't anyone argue this request ?--Forestfarmer 15:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I oppose a new move. It'll just enflame the debate more and it will be an endless coming and going. Ginnre 18:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the move. "Dokdo" is a lot more common name then "Liancourt Rocks" because "Liancourt Rocks" are only used by some neutral observers and most people include "Liancourt Rocks" because it is another name.

Using "Liancourt Rocks" makes it seem as if Korea or Japan claims Dokdo at an equal position, which is not. And remember Google is just a crude search engine. Good friend100 21:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't be hot.read WP:NPOV. yours insistence don't follow fundamental wikipedia principle.especally about "~by some neutral observers". The islands are disput area.It have right that neutral observer use "Liancourt Rock" and Misplaced Pages should be followed NPOV too.additionally,It is fact that crude search engine,you insisted, answer it.but your insistence ""Dokdo" is a lot more common name then "Liancourt Rocks"" is not fact. because It is only your POV. please write more creative insistence.It might seem vandalism.--Forestfarmer 09:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Forestfarmer.

"Takeshima" is a Japanese name. So, it is Japan POV.

"Dokdo" is a Korean name. So, it is Korea POV.

"Liancourt Rocks" is the other country called. it is NPOV.

It's very simple which name wikipedea should be use.--Junmai 11:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If Liancourt Rocks is a really neutral name, you may be right. However, it's not that simple because 'Liancourt Rocks' has much more stronger tie to Japan. They once officially named the islands as "リャンコ岩"or"リアンクール岩" before they named it as 'Takeshima'. Original english name was 'Hornet island'. Soon after Japan named the islands as 'Takeshima' Korea went down to Japanese occupation, and to the world, the islands were known as 'Liancourt Rocks' exclusively from Japanese source. For Japanese, Liancourt Rocks is a familiar name for more than 100 years long with Takeshima. You can see it easily because it is Japan to promote this name these days, too, claiming it is neutral and they criticize Korean asserting using Dokdo as nationalistic. The reality is like this;

Japan knows that Dokdo is pratically controlled by Korea and it is impossible for them to get it now just by claiming this or that. And they also know that history before the 20th century and all those documents around the end of WWII is not strong enough for them to claim Dokdo. Both Korean and Japan have this or that about the island, with a little bit more convincing historical evidences favorable for Korea and almost 50:50 evidences among all those documents around the end of WWII. (By the way, it is natural that the evidences from those documents around the end of WWII is more improved for Japan than those before the 20th century because Japan occupied Korea more than 30 years until the end of WWII and the entire Korea was Japanese territory until then. How could the rest world know whatsoever was Korean opinion on the islands?) Hence, the only way for Japan to get Dokdo is, first to change the status quo on the islands. For that purpose, it is this seemingly harmless 'Liancourt Rocks' to begin with. To reduce the presence of the name 'Dokdo' in any publication in the world is the first step. Once it is widely known as Liancourt Rocks than Dokdo, maybe in 10 to 20 years, it looks more neutral and Korean tie to Dokdo is more weakened by then. Then it is easier for Japan to claim Dokdo at that time or make the atmosphere favorable to them. So, for now, they promote this name as their first strategy to get it (back, as they say). That's one of the reasons why so many Koreans are against to and so many Japanese are for this name. To change the name from Dokdo to Liancourt Rock does not reflect the current situation, but it SETS the current situation in favor of Japan, because it is what Japan is up to at present and they do this all over the world. As they put more effort, more and more publication will cease to use Dokdo and start to use Liancourt Rocks. As you can see it is happening these days. 10 years or 5 years ago, Liancourt Rocks were barely known name for this island.

So, is it still a neutral name? It is NOT and it also shows that Japanese don't think much about their imperialistic expansion period before WWII. This wide spreading of Liancourt Rocks began in Japanese occupation of Korea and their main arguments largely stem from those documents around the end of WWII. And those documents were possible at all because they occupied Korea so a long time just before. If they are truely sorry about the period at all, they can't claim the islands so strongly and systematically based on those evidences mainly coming from that period. Their argument may be nice and strong, but they don't think about under what circumstances those documents were produced, dating back to this Shimane prefecture's proclaim of Dokdo as terra nullius in 1905, when Japanese expasion just began.

I found that Japanese are in general so ignorant of this historical background and just talking about international laws and evidences from that period. The fact is, those evidences were in general heavily influenced by Japanese opinion after Japan's long occupation of Korea. It shows that Japanese government has little interest to educate Japanese about this dark history or they don't regard that period as that dark.

So for Koreans, Japanese are very arrogant in this regard because Japanese endlessly refer to those evidences without any regret about that dark period, thinking those documents are evidence for their right for Dokdo. In principle, in the 20th centruty, it was so before WWII, but it is not any more after WWII. To compare, have Germany ever tried to claim back their former territory, Pommern ? Ginnre 15:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Your paper is both good and original.but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good.C

It's joke.Don't make your humor bad.I would want to write it once.but I would write seriously here.

I don't dicuss with "Takesima" belonging in this section."Takesima" is disput area between Japan and Korea. It is end and over.more over about it do not fit this section.

U.S.government used Liancourt Rocks in the Rusk documents in 1951,.It have evidence that neutral observer use "Liancourt Rock".

bring evidence "リャンコ岩"or"リアンクール岩" is officially used in japan 100 years ago or more.

Don't forget ""Takeshima" is a Japanese territory on international law." is fact. and your paper is at all YOUR POV.--Forestfarmer 17:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have much to say about your comment, because I answered more than enough previously. Regarding リャンコ岩, read Q45 - Q46 in the link. Ginnre 19:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been watching his page for a long time and I didn't want to get involved with the debate here, but I felt that I needed to say something...Forestfarmer, I think you're missing Ginnre's point. I think her point was that the name Liancourt Rocks was derived from a Japanese source; therefore, she feels that it isn't a neutral name. Whether this is true, I'm not sure, so I'll have to investigate later. But if indeed what Ginnre says is true, then it's quite similiar to how the Sea of Japan was an English/officially-maintained-as-neutral name created from Japanese sources, hence the Sea of Japan. However, this isn't about the Sea of Japan naming dispute, so I am hoping all of us will avoid that little vicious debate. Hope that clears things up.

Anyway, instead of this issue worsening into a nasty, trolling war (again), how about taking a poll (again) with preferably little comments as necessary? (But seriously, isn't anybody out here sick of all this fighting and debating about the name of this article and whose claims are more valid? The verbal war between the Korean nationalists and Japanese nationalists is bad enough in the real world...) —Mirlen 18:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry,I had be hot.I try to be cool. the discussion about it seem to get inflame. I choose taking a poll.--Forestfarmer 15:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

see this webpage..

excerpt:

Then in 1849, another French warship Liancourt survey Tokdo and christened it "Liancourt Rocks." After that "Dagelet Island" and "Liancourt Rocks" were used in the European maps and gazettes.

The Russians followed suit.In 1854, the Russian warship Palada under the command of a Putiatin made a survey of Tokdo and gave it the name of "Manalai and Olivutsa Rocks." but Tokdo was popularly known as "Liancourt Rocks" in Europe.

"Liancourt Rocks" is found by French warship.and It is used in European maps and gazettes. and It has spread to Europe.in 1854. "Liancourt" popularly known in not only Europe but also Russia.

There is no Japan or no Japnese.and I think the reason that old japanese used "リャンコ岩" or "リアンクール岩" is "Liancourt Rocks" being used in Europe then.--Forestfarmer 10:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Repeating Things

This discussion, to me, is turning out way too repetitive. We've been discussing these things over and over and over again. For example, how long have we been arguing over names Dokdo-Liancourt-Takeshima? If we're to make this discussion more meaningful, I suggest we start arguing ove evidence that I have not heard at least twice, or end this war entirely. Oyo321 17:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

i donno about dokdo vs whatever, but seems to me that the koreans are right to rename sea of japan to east sea. though it's still from korean perspective (ocean east of korea), at least it's more neutral than "sea of japan". 71.104.33.232 07:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit silly considering that Japan's East Sea region lies on the other side of Japan, though. It would be so much better if they could come up with a common name. Just saying. Rōnin 11:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well..."East Sea" would not be really neutral, but China supports the fact that it should be the East Sea since it is east to them as well. I agree a common name would compromise it but that is highly unlikely. Good friend100 02:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

East Sea would be appropriate and a neutral name for the sea. Like I mentioned before, the Sea of Japan is named only because Japan wanted it to, and Japan is well known in the world, so nobody would compete with Japan for their naming of a natural body of water. Oyo321 18:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I was just thinking of the Tokai region, which is apparently nearby the Pacific ocean, and not by the East Sea. Imagine having a sea called the East Sea to the West and a piece of land called the East Sea to the East. Enough to make one dizzy. ☺ Rōnin 20:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It also seems there's a Japanese region called "中国" ("middle country", but also "China"). Poor folks! Rōnin 20:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone should make up a compromise name, seriously. Good friend100 20:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Then why don't you start a poll 69.222.52.114 16:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think... Oh, wait, is that irony or not? Rōnin 19:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

What? Oyo321 21:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a compromise name: it's called the 청해 (靑海 or Blue Sea), which is another historical name for it. This article recommends the name for international use while letting the two countries continue to use their own names for the sea. Mithridates 22:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. To live is to learn! Who knows, maybe in 100 years... Rōnin 22:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I have never heard of the Blue Sea, and I suppose not a lot of people in both Korea or Japan know of it...Good friend100 17:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Page protected

Until the two sides can work out their differences and come to a consensus on what changes (if any) should be made to this article, this page will remain protected. There have been too many editors working in concert to avoid various policies, and too much POV-pushing back and forth on this article. This needs to stop now. Discuss things here first, and then we'll see about unprotecting the article. ···日本穣 07:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Endorsing the Korean POV is POV. Endorsing the Nihon POV is POV. Calling the islets Liancourt Rocks, a neutral term, and mentioning both POV names, is not POV. I am new to this article so I was not involved in previous debates or polls but I fail to see how we came to such a conclusion. —Aiden 13:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note the following line in the Protected notice on the main page: "Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version." ···日本穣 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Aiden: Enforcing NPOV is fine. But I feel as though you are specifically singling out this one article for your version of NPOV and that to me doesn't seem neutral. There is a whole category of disputed territories that would also benefit from your NPOV standard, like Sea of Japan and Tsushima Basin.

My point is that this article was moved to this name with a consensus of the votes and we should respect that. If we don't, then any editor could just start ignoring consensus and change the names on any article that they want, like you have done. I don't think that is how Misplaced Pages should work because it would get a little chaotic. Tortfeasor 17:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Aiden, Liancourt Rocks is not neutral. It is in favor of Japan. Please read the archives for the discussion and my writing in 'opening paragraph' section.--ginnre 15:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, I request a revert to the previous version before Forestfarmer did as I asked in the 'opening paragraph' section. Please read it. And why did you set protection with this version? The previous one has been out there for a relative long time and the current version is just new and controversial. ginnre 17:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note the following line in the Protected notice on the main page: "Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version." There will be no changes until you all can work out some sort of compromise. This revert war is ridiculous. ···日本穣 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind having the name "Dokdo" replaced with "the area" and "the islets" in the article, but I think we should at least make sure the opening paragraph and the page title agree on what the islets are called. Currently the page title says "Dokdo" (as was agreed upon in the most recent poll), whereas the opening paragraph says "Liancourt Rocks". We should either decide to move the article back to "Liancourt Rocks" (and even then we should consider keeping the protection!) or continue to use Dokdo as the preferred name, as we've been doing now for a short while. I'm beginning to lean towards the first option after seeing the shitstorm that's taken place here. Is anyone else wondering if we should consider moving the article back? Rōnin 22:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not a shi#tstorm as much as a few users who have been violating Misplaced Pages policies by using sockpuppets. If the only criteria for moving a page back is the amount of complaining and abusing the system that a few users have caused, that sets up a very poor precedent for everyone else who abides by the rules instead pitching a hissy fit every time consensus doesn't go there way. Tortfeasor 23:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The introduction does not match the title of the page. Please fix it. See Senkaku Islands for an example. Those islands are also in dispute, but as they are administered by Japan the article has a Japanese bent. Dokdo is controlled by South Korea. It should be written accordingly, reflecting the reality and not opinions.--Sir Edgar 23:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to make a list of items that should be changed, and then we can see if everyone agrees on them. Until a consensus is reached, this page will not be unprotected. Sorry, but the edit warring is really pathetic (not pointing fingers at any specific person here as there were many, many participants). ···日本穣 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

• The name used in the first paragraph and the article title should match Rōnin 00:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

i'm also asking that we return to the post-poll, pre-vandalism version that had been settling down until a few days ago. this & other recently protected pages will need an admin (& i guess nihonjoe has been self-nominated), to actually look at the contested versions and apply wikipedia policy.

the last thing we need is another numerical counting of prejudices, as long as there are pretty obvious sockpuppets, single-purpose accounts, and zealous newcomers who cannot reasonably discuss in english relevant wikipedia policies and references. there have been some heroic attempts to assume good faith & stabs at dialogue or just exhausted compromise, but it's been an utter waste of goodwill.

since you've set the protection & have presumptive authority to modify or unprotect, nihonjoe, please bring back some sanity here. i trust nihonjoe's ability to be fair & apply his wikipedia experience & knowledge of policies. there's already been plenty of discussion in talk, archives, & edit summaries. now, we need less repetition of opinions & more adherence to policy. or we'll have to wait til hell freezes over for the mob rule to exhaust itself while the vandalized versions stay protected. thanks for your efforts to help, & hope you can finish what you started. Appleby 00:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've made the article consistent with the title. ···日本穣 02:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Cheers! Rōnin 03:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it undermine the entire purpose of a page protection if a user is allowed to edit the page to his liking, especially when that version is contested as POV? That amounts to an endorsement. —Aiden 06:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It's an endorsement of Misplaced Pages policy. The article title should be the same as the name in the first paragraph as it is in all other articles. Tortfeasor 06:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think that the people involved in this article reach consensus so that the protection will be gone? It doesn't look like so.ginnre 15:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That's why I brought up moving the page back. I actually agree with you, it's all fine and dandy to dispute Korea's claim to the islands, but they control it now, much as the ROC controls Taiwan and Israel controls... Well, Israel. As far as I can see, no article can actually have a neutral point of view, because there's no such thing as a neutral observer. But for pragmatic reasons, I thought we could still consider moving the article back at some point in the future. Nevertheless, it's not something I intend to actively advocate. Rōnin 14:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

An unreasonable thing is done.--Forestfarmer 10:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ronin, the NPOV rule is too stiff. There are never neutral observers. The Misplaced Pages NPOV policy weakens the Korean side because the Japan side keeps using the NPOV rule to say "Dokdo is POV, should be Liancourt Rocks" or "the opening paragraph is Korean POV".

I suggest the page be protected until our discussions become a little more stable. I don't want to see vandalism happen again like a couple months ago. Good friend100 16:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

suggestion for neutral opening sentence

Dokdo, also known as Takeshima in Japanese and Liancourt Rocks in English, are internationally-recognized disputed islets in the Sea of Japan (East Sea). The islets are currently controlled and administered by South Korea and supported by North Korea, but claimed by Japan.

South Korea classifies the islets as a part of Ulleung County, North Gyeongsang Province, while Japan classifies them as part of Okinoshima Town, Oki District, Shimane Prefecture.