Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SNUGGUMS (talk | contribs) at 07:36, 1 July 2015 (OneClickArchiver adding Gial Ackbar). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Unexplained / POV removal of content by User:Packerfansam

User:Packerfansam has been around for a long time and has accumulated tens of thousands of edits, many focusing on Wisconsin legislative and / or political articles. He has created more than 3300 articles – many of them very short biographies, but a lot by even that measure. With this depth of experience (and a clean block log) it’s perplexing that in the past few days following a several-month editing hiatus, he has begun to remove substantial chunks of content from a variety of articles, accompanied by vague (and sometimes misleading) edit summaries. In many of the cases, the excised material relates to Jews, Muslims, African-Americans or LGBT matters, raising NPOV concerns.

Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims

New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism

Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject

Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews

Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state

I raised concerns about this on the editor’s Talk page, first in brief narrative fashion, followed by templates when the edits continued without response. See link. Since then the unexplained and apparently POV edits have continued:

John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"

Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.

I am bringing the matter here because the edits are, to my eyes, troubling, and need attention; and the editor is unresponsive. Furthermore the editor has a long and apparently productive history here, and these excisions are not so plainly “vandalism” or disruption that they’re suitable for AIV if they continue.

Thanks in advance for any comments and / or assistance. JohnInDC (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The edit summary shortened, simplified and removed possible redundant content is not reflective of the edits which are often completely removing all mention of specific groups of people. How can content be redundant if you remove all of it that concerns gays or Jews? These edits definitely are imposing a strange POV where some people are just erased from the public record. Liz 12:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

He's trying to purge Misplaced Pages of any evidence for the existence of people who aren't Christian and Republican. In May, he even removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles (and was reverted). I would support an indefinite block for deceptive editing. KateWishing (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block - even though he has a long history and a clean block record, this editor appears to either have become very extreme of late or decided he's WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia anymore. These edits account for vandalism in my opinion and given the particular topics of his dislike, I don't see the editor cheerfully avoiding them in the future. —Мандичка 😜 13:33, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

In addition, he's not responsive at his talk page, the last time he responded there seems to be to thank someone over 5 years ago. As for the recent edits, the edit summaries clearly misrepresent the edits, and his removal of content has become clearly disruptive. Despite his constructive edits, these edits suggest WP:NOTHERE. Doug Weller (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

JohnInDC was concerned about the wrong citations Packerfansam had added to several Wisconsin Legislators article very recently. I had been looking at Packerfansam's Wisconsin Legislators articles to see if a category, etc., needs to be added. I did add the correct Wisconsin Blue Books citation to the articles that JohnInDC was concerned about. And I was concerned about about Packerfansam removing the political affliations of several Wisconsin Legislators articles with no reasons given. I hope this helps-Thank youRFD (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Is it possible this account is compromised ? Considering his long history of productive edits, then this sudden shift ... maybe it's something to look at ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I had the same thought but in the main, the edit interests seem to have been pretty stable. I guess in the final analysis it doesn't matter - the edits are unacceptable no matter who's responsible. (It is mystifying though.) JohnInDC (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Note that he stopped editing in August of last year, and when he returned 24 April, this is when the problems began. The possibility of a compromised account is real, as is a CIR issue. He has never been one to communicate, I didn't see any talk in his contribs. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown, I thought this was possible but even as of today, he continues to create articles on Wisconsin politicians as he has been doing for years. Please look at his contributions. —Мандичка 😜 02:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

A CIR issue may still be at hand. Medication, life events, all kinds of things can change a person's competency, either temporarily or permanently. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:33, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

First things, despite the assumption, I'm a 'she'. Second, to answer people's suspicions, I have numerous health issues that have escalated in recent times. I don't feel it's necessary to go into specifics, but is it possible they can effect my judgment? Sure. That, along with other issues in my life can explain gaps between logging in, such as the last couple days. Now, I think along with some of the other issues being discussed, my not logging in for two days is being exaggerated. It was not because of these accusations, I didn't received a notice of this until I just logged in for this session. Sometimes health and other life issues take my attention. The extended length between updates last year involves family issues that, again, I don't think it's necessary to be specific about. If, during these times, I was hacked and I haven't realized it, my apologies. I have recently changed my password, maybe that would help to stop other possible issues. Now, the concerns about the links to the Wisconsin Blue Book tend to can be tough I understand. Google Books reverts you back to the original page you were on prior. If you were looking as something on page 1 and later decide to post a link for page 2, it decides to take you back to 1. Some of the re-categorizing is simply because it doesn't seem like the article necessarily belongs there, such as with Category:Mayors of places in Wisconsin, where there were some subjects whose job titles didn't match the criteria. Thanks to those who have offered their support. Packerfansam (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your response here, and good luck with your health issues. Can you please offer an explanation, for example, for this edit to Precursor (religion), where you removed sourced materiel regarding non-Christian religions. This type of POV edit, with no (in this case) or misleading (in other cases) is the heart of my concern, and perhaps others. Was it judgement impairment due to illness, as you suggested some of the unaddressed issues might be? Or, are you asserting that your account was WP:COMPROMISED? The key is to understand (a) which other edits your account may have made, like that, with no or misleading edit summaries, that still need to be fixed, and (b) can you offer an assurance that such editing will not happen again. An acknowledgement of why it really happened will help other editors have confidence in your continued participation. Otherwise, why should you not be topic-banned from editing articles about religion and politics? JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

@Packerfansam: could you please address some of the issues such as Joe's question above?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, let me first address that if anything I did seemed to be misleading or deceptive in articles, I deeply apologize. It seems to me, among other things, if you have a certain location (city, state, etc.) where the residents are overwhelmingly affiliated with a certain group or denomination, it bloats the article and makes it excessively long if you go into detail about other groups that make up a microscopic (sometimes like 0.15% or less) portion of the population and the culture. Thanks Packerfansam (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

As for being compromised, I can't answer definitely without carefully combing through and trying to remember things, but it's happened with me on other sites in the past so it's possible. Packerfansam (talk) 21:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm unpersuaded. That reasoning would maybe explain removing mention of Jews in Kansas (though it's 2%, not .015%) but it certainly is hard to square with editing out Jews in New York City or mention of the "largest gay and bisexual community in the United States" that is found there. That's just one counterexample - there are several others cited above, and below as well. JohnInDC (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

First, let me point out that it was 0.15 not .015, there is a difference. In regards to NYC, there was a section about the city's many, many landmarks and none of the others were mentioned by name, except for I think it was Greenwich, as if it were special or more noteworthy than the others. Without getting into what's right or wrong even, it seems strange to me that one should be especially singled out and recognized apart from the others. Packerfansam (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Pardon, but that is an inadequate if not disingenuous explanation for this edit to NYC, where, as you did with many other edits, you removed all mention of non-Christian religions:

Christianity is the most prevalently practiced religion in New York, followed by Judaism, with approximately 1.1 million Jews (יהודי) in New York City, over half living in Brooklyn. Islam ranks third in New York City, with official estimates ranging between 600,000 and 1,000,000 observers and including 10% of the city's public schoolchildren, followed by Hinduism, Buddhism, and a variety of other religions, as well as atheism or self-identifying with no organized religious affiliation.

References

1. "World Jewish Population". SimpleToRemember.com – Judaism Online. Retrieved September 2, 2012.
2. "Jewish Community Study of New York: 2011 Comprehensive Report" (PDF). UJA-Federation of New York. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
3. Cite error: The named reference BrooklynJewish was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Marc Santora and Sharon Otterman (March 4, 2015). "New York City Adds 2 Muslim Holy Days to Public School Calendar". The New York Times. Retrieved March 4, 2015.

Try again. JoeSperrazza (talk) 05:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please let's don't go through these one by one, arguing whether ".15" or ".015" makes the edits any more defensible. A full-throated denial would be a good start - if Packerfansam doesn't want to go through her contribution history to identify the odious edits that were made by a hacker using her name, the examples here are sufficient to tell her in an instant whether she was responsible for them. Absent a straight-up denial, which we don't have, an acknowledgment or recognition that maybe, perhaps, it's problematic to remove references to, e.g., Jews in New York, Muslims in Michigan, gay marriage from the Republican Party, the Jewish ancestry and civil rights advocacy of a German lawyer, the sexual orientation of a the first gay Republican legislator in Wisconsin, or - by the IP a day ago - the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach. And that's before we even start on the misleading edit summaries that accompanied these changes (for which she offers a conditional apology). So far I see nothing to assure us that Packerfansam recognizes these edits as problematic or that she will not make similar edits going forward. JohnInDC (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Continued problematic editing that is continuing to occur noted here, together with Good hand/bad hand editing noted here are both of considerable concern. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, this is what certain people seem to want to see - yes, I made updates that are causing this debacle. You can argue about my judgment and whether it's been altered. To me, in my judgment in what I recall, it seemed proper. I don't necessarily know if it was to the excess others believe it was, so I can't rule out a hack. I don't have plans to go out and make particularly controversial edits, my plan for the imminent future is to continue with legislator bios, creating and updating articles as would be appropriate with that. Packerfansam (talk), 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Response & comment - This is at best a grudging acknowledgment by Packerfansam of the problems she has caused with her POV edits and misleading summaries, not to mention (indeed not mentioned) the edit warring and sock puppetry. It isn't just "some people" who want to see an explanation and assurances, but nearly every single person who has participated in this discussion. I do not believe that Packerfansam appreciates that her edits contravened Misplaced Pages policy, or that that were in any way improper or disruptive. That being said I also believe that the foregoing is about all we are going to get out of her on the subject, and, as halfhearted as it is, it is something. She is, at least, speaking about it. Going forward, which I assume will take place without a block, I personally would like to see something a little more explicit about the ground rules, whether it comes from her, or from us, by rough agreement. Maybe something like, "no edits to remove content from articles re religion, sexual preference or other demographic characteristics" - I don't know. What I do know is that "no immediate plans" to make controversial edits is not reassuring, and isn't very helpful as a standard against which to measure future behavior. Thoughts and / or comments welcome. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 01:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I have no idea what can offend some people. To me, for instance, creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like that doesn't seem like it should bother anybody. But I can't be sure what somebody could have a problem with. Can I give 100% certainty that nobody will ever have a problem with something I write ever again? No. Do I want to go through this stress again when I already have enough in my life? Also no. Packerfansam (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

If what you mean by that is that you intend henceforth to stick to creating stub articles for Wisconsin politicians, then you are much less likely to run into POV and bias problems. I would recommend including the political affiliation of the subjects, when it is in the sources, and ensuring that the sources you cite actually link to the subject of the article you are creating. I, we, are not asking you to promise you'll never offend anyone again; rather we are asking that you stop removing material from articles because something about it offends you. Thanks. Now let's see what some of the other editors have to say about this. JohnInDC (talk) 03:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I found your response to be very disappointing. I had thought you "got it", and were willing to move forward, but just didn't want to explicitly own up to your mistakes. But your answers, above, make me wonder. Do you really think the issue was a vague, hard to understand "some people" being "offend"ed? Do you really think the issue was anything to do with was "creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like "? If so, you have a serious problem of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and or a problem with competence. Examples were laid out for you very clearly here and on your talk page. You are ignoring those details here, and have repeatedly blanked them on your talk page. As a reminder, the problems include this list and many more:

Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims

• New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism
• Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject
• Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews
• Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state
• John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"
• Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.
• removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles
• remove mention of Jews in New York City
• removal of the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach
• Special:Contributions/24.178.45.221 most troublesome, was your Good hand/bad hand editing, with your logged out editing all, with 2 exceptions, being reverted by editors as being disruptive

Are you really sure you want to continue in this way? JoeSperrazza (talk) 04:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Time to close We do not know the full circumstances under which Packerfansam is editing. We know he has health issues and we should leave it at that. He is constructively engaging editors about issues they have, and although we may strongly disagree with some of the edits he has made, he clearly wants to edit constructively and with good faith. Could there be future problems? Sure, but we can deal with them should they arise. Let's assume good faith and encourage Packerfansam to continue editing. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:32, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Again, it's she, either way, much appreciated. Packerfansam (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for getting your gender wrong! --I am One of Many (talk) 05:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not too much to ask that Packerfansam state precisely what she intends to do, or not do, going forward; or that we collectively outline our expectations of her. Her POV and misleading edits were blockable and while she is now at least discussing them, she has given no indication at all that she appreciates what the problem is (apologizing if she has been misleading; confessing to having no idea which of her edits "might offend some people", as though unpredictably thin-skinned readers were the heart of it) and I would like just a bit of clarity about what is expected of her going forward so that if, three or four weeks - or 5 months - hence, we see a new run of POV purges, someone can point back and say, "that is not what you said you would do". If she does not understand the problem, then she can't exercise meaningful judgment in avoiding it in the future. Other than that - yes, I agree, we are done here. JohnInDC (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it is too much at this point. Packerfansam has edited here, without issues, for years. If there are issues in the next few weeks or months, we can deal with them. If the edits in question were due to misunderstandings and/or lapses in judgement, then moving on means she moves on to continued constructive editing. If we continue to push this thing, maybe she says "The hell with this, I don't need this in my life.", she moves on, and we lose another editor. You have accomplished what is important: She is aware of the issues, acknowledged them, stated that she wants to contribute constructively. Now, let's assume good faith and deal with issues in the future if they occur. --I am One of Many (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Can't seem to quit - Promises notwithstanding, Packerfansam just this morning edited Omaha, Nebraska to remove mention of synagogues in the city. Diff here. She does not seem able to help herself. She has been systematically removing references in articles to non-Christians and non-traditional sexual orientations and despite the extensive discussion here - as well as her claim that she doesn't want any more headaches - she continues to do so. She does not understand the problem, and she is manifestly unable to stop. JohnInDC (talk) 14:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. It's getting ridiculous at this point. I am One of Many, I applaud your efforts to caution restraint, but I daresay that assuming good faith at this point at this point would be counterproductive and deleterious to the project. And to be honest, a bit silly. Editors are beginning to become exasperated cleaning up her POV edits, which she apparently has no intention of stopping. As of now, the editor has shown no actual remorse, has been generally avoidant and disingenuous, ignored several attempts to communicate, and is unrelenting in making their unabashedly POV edits (often coupled with misleading edit summaries). Whether they've contributed any significant content in the past is immaterial, and a point rendered moot considering the fact that this behaviour is continuing. For some time, the editor in question has been editing with an obvious political / religious agenda, and is completely unapologetic in doing so. This discussion has gone on for almost a week now, and extending them any good will is almost abetting the disruption, and appears to be only forestalling an inevitable indefinite block. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Support Indefinite block, per above, and no efforts to alter their behaviour or even acknowledge that this is inappropriate. An unblock, of course, should be conditional on a promise to reach consensus regarding removal or wholesale alteration of material related to religion, race, and sexual orientation. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

No sign of abating - Early this morning (June 23) she removed a reference to a "figure study of a nude young woman" painted by artist Clarence Holbrook Carter as "POV". A couple of editors recently weighed in on her Talk page, urging her to steer clear of religion, so it bears repeating that she has never confined her excisions to those matters, but has swept in sexuality as well - e.g., removing references to various subjects' sexual orientation, and LGBT political issues; edit warring at University of Wisconsin–Madison to remove "Playboy" as as reference on the ground that it is not reliable or a place for respected or credible journalism. Repeated admonitions don't seem to have had much effect, but if suasion is the path to be followed, it should at least be comprehensive. JohnInDC (talk) 11:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Time to close Issues are now about content and not behavior. Behavior has been mis-characterized in above "Can't seem to quit" where the editor removed an uncited sentence as much about Christians as it was about Jews. Attempts to paint this as anti-semitic fall short. Subsequently, you removed cited material that she added in a blind revert. Uncool. The material under "No sign of abating" is unsourced and indeed has a POV because of striking which is opinion..."Carter's striking figure study...". Being unsourced she can remove it...personally, I would have just removed the adjective but her actions aren't egregious here. The other diffs are old rehash from May. It is beginning to look as if editors have an ax to grind. Defer to dispute resolution for content matters.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I disagree that it has become a kind of rolling content dispute, and I don't care for the suggestion that I've got an axe to grind. Packerfansam's editing focus and pattern (religion / sexuality / politics) beyond the creation of short articles in my view remains unchanged. And too I confess to being a bit mystified by the deference that is being shown to her given that she has failed to address any but one or two of her earlier, indefensible edits (and those, only in the most general of terms). But I do agree that this has become a huge time sink, and my own convictions notwithstanding, the issue seems to be finding no purchase here. I don't like seeing my credibility as an editor called into question, so I will let this go if that's the decision. JohnInDC (talk) 16:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• So she removed one reference to Christianity (that also removed more Jewish info) after this AfD began? (And again, that would be valid population info that she randomly stripped it out for no reason from an article about a major U.S. city, well after this AfD began). Yes, I see how that definitely proves she has no problems with Jews and there's no problem with behavior.... —Мандичка 😜 14:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to indef block Packerfansam for POV editing, misleading edit summaries and refusal to engage

Given the speed at which matters move up and out of ANI, I’m a bit worried that, a few editors having offered their views, the matter will languish without resolution. Several commenters have suggested an indef block, so I now formally propose it.

• Support, as proposer and per above - repeated removal of content reflecting political / religious bias, misleading edit summaries, refusal to engage. JohnInDC (talk) 18:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose – given that this is apparently a long-term editor who did lots of good work before, but has maybe gone "off" lately, an indef block against a previously "clean" block record seems like overkill. I could support a relatively long block (e.g. months) here for Packerfansam, but even that seems like it might be overkill. It does seem clear that a block of some duration is probably in order here... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This should surely be more of a cause for concern than an opportunity for a very punative block. I suggest further research is required- surely we also have a some responsibility to WP:ENGAGE...? _Fortuna 18:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - He has ignored my attempts at engagement (other than to blank the template warnings) and continues to make the same kinds of edits. If another editor can get his attention, that'd be great. JohnInDC (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Modify — A sanction of some type, not indef, and allowing for discussion at the user's talk page or here. But the nature of these edits is such that we need to put some immediate protections in place while we try to engage. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Reluctant support - given this editor's long history of sound edits, I'm distressed to say that we have to do this: but something has gone wrong since early May or so, and we can no long rely on an edit by this account to be a sound one, the way we used to. If they refuse to communicate, a block of at least one month minimum seems called for. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support shorter block, given the editor's clean block log until now; it will get their attention as well as an indef, which is always an option if needed. On a block log, an indef (which I know isn't infinite) looks worse than a block of fixed duration, and this editor may be salvageable. Miniapolis 22:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I've never seen what function an "attention-getting block" really serves. Either the account is compromised and an indef block is appropriate, or the editor is really an inveterate POV warrior who should not be editing as long as they think that such is appropriate. In the latter case an indef block is also appropriate--a block which can be lifted as soon as...well, fill in the blank, but it starts with "Packerfansam". Drmies (talk) 02:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose indef, we can use escalating blocks in an attempt to recover this editor. Something like a week for the first block would be sufficient. Chillum 22:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  So your premise is that blocking an editor is a good way to recover one? As opposed to alienating them? Strange. Eric Corbett 22:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  Please don't try to explain my premise, you never seem to get it right. We have to weigh damage to the project against keeping the editor. Chillum 03:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  If he's taken a sudden turn toward the Dark Side, it's probably too late already. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  It is not hard to reblock if shorter blocks do not work. Chillum 03:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  Yes, especially as it appears he's never been blocked before. If he's uncommunicative, a reasonable short block might get his attention. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't usually agree with Mr. Corbett, but I do here. As I said just above, I don't believe in attention-getting blocks, and the whole concept of escalating blocks--well, I spent a few years in a place where they believed in something like that, and it never increased my desire to live by their rules. Blocks piss people off, and they should be applied judiciously and appropriately. "Getting attention" is like keying someone's car because they parked it in the wrong place. If it's in the way, you tow it. Drmies (talk) 02:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• The goal is not to get their attention, the goal is to prevent disruptive editing. I suggested escalating block instead of an indef because it give the user a chance to recover while preventing disruption. Remember that communication has already been tried. Chillum 22:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose indef Something has gone wrong since May and a user with a clean block log is up for an indef. Please do not hand out indefs so lightly. (Littleolive oil (talk) 23:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC))
  • Comment - Just - to be clear, I don't care particularly whether the editor is indef blocked or not. Anything that works is fine with me. As for the scope of the problem, I can add that, at least among the articles he has recently created, he reports the party affiliation of the subject when it is Republican or Independent, but omits it if it's Democratic. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme - these are legislators who served 120+ years ago - but these deliberate omissions are irresponsible at best, and make wholly unnecessary work for others. JohnInDC (talk) 00:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef - I see no reason to suspect account compromise. Editor is STILL creating new articles for Wisconsin politicians. If any reason should be considered, editor can appeal the block and attempt to provide explanation. Regardless of reason, editor is no longer here to contribute. —Мандичка 😜 01:17, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Although Packerfansam doesn't respond directly to warnings, his/her behavior has been altered by them. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:28, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I am One of Many What do you mean by his behavior has been altered? He obviously saw the many warnings as he deleted them from his talk page. Then just today he removed the table about religion demographics from a town in Norway that was 1.5 percent Muslim. His edit summary for the removal of the demographics table was "bars were out of place." I really don't know what to make of that. —Мандичка 😜 06:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, he didn't make that edit today, but on June 14. He also removed the whole box on religion, so we can't say he was targeting Muslims. Finally, I don't know how to interpret his edit summary, but it could just mean he didn't like how tables lined up, so he removed them. I'll also add that I see no evidence of edit waring when he is reverted. --I am One of Many (talk) 07:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That edit summary shows it was made on June 15, at least by Misplaced Pages time, and more importantly was after he had been warned. If he felt the table wasn't properly aligned, he could have moved it somewhere else. It's below another demographic table that was not deleted. Based on his other pattern of removal of information, this is highly suspicious. Additionally he was warned over and over and continued his behavior, as you can see by the activity on his page along with his contributions. If his behavior has truly been altered by being told to stop, this would never have come to ANI. Edit warring is only one form of disruptive editing. —Мандичка 😜 08:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. He doesn't refuse to engage, he just hasn't engaged on this topic this time around. He uses talk pages:
• 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, 8 but typically blanks messages he receives and then goes to their talk page to reply. He responded here but that editor didn't reply back(!). He traded replies where he blanked and then replied here with another editor...that editor replied back to Packer's talk page so the thread gets lost in the shuffle. Packer is removing posts after he has read them as part of his norm. I would suggest that he isn't talk page savvy but that doesn't mean that he doesn't communicate at all. I do think that he should be more conversant on the POV topics. This change on his userpage may reflect a change in POV. He hasn't engaged JohnInDC; that shouldn't be taken that he doesn't engage with everyone. Calls for indef above seem extreme to me. The first warning might be construed as a nuisance as he may think his summary isn't off the mark and suggesting he has to play Mother may I and always use talk pages...well, I'd ignore that too. Being templated thereafter doesn't help but kind of has the ring of Don't template the regulars. Apart from John, the only other editor that has attempted to engage him on this is Ed. None of the supporters above bothered to try. This can be characterized as isolated between two editors. A more cordial approach may work.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - As I noted above, I don't care what's done as long as the unacceptable editing stops. (I am skeptical that his 36 hour editing pause is significant.) I would note further that his disinclination to explain or defend questionable edits is not limited to the immediate non-conversation with me - three times previously, on three separate occasions (beginning here), other editors asked him about and warned him against systematically removing party affiliations from Wisconsin legislator articles. As far as I can tell he did not respond to any of these messages. He did ultimately stop removing the material, but then switched over to selectively omitting the information from articles he was continuing to create. I get that this is a longstanding editor with a lot of good work to his credit, but - you know, so am I, and in all honesty if I started removing content reflecting a clear political bias, and camouflaged it with misleading edit summaries, and refused to discuss it - well, I'd expect to be blocked, at least until I evinced some willingness to acknowledge and discuss the problem. JohnInDC (talk) 14:35, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
    • You've got that a bit wrong. What you link to above was on his talk page but he responded on the other editor's talk page and the last sentence leads me to think that he may have thought that removal of party affiliation may have been trying to correct where he thought that he had "been overdoing it" when he had wrote those in before.
       — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
      • You are right. I missed that. Thanks. That being said, it is a "response" only in the most literal sense. He ignored the first Talk page message on May 12 (continuing to remove party affiliations), responded to a second (rather stern) May 13-14 Talk page message as you've noted, and then started right back up at it on another 20 or so articles (blanking Democrats only!) and didn't stop until a third Talk page message on May 15. I do not dispute that my messages to him were not the best for eliciting a response from him (I wish I'd done that better in retrospect) but: We've been talking here at ANI for a day and a half, and another editor has left a thoughtful narrative message on his page inviting a response, and so far we have nothing. The only thing that gives me pause is that he hasn't edited for 36 hours, so conceivably he hasn't seen Ed's message or the ANI notification. But I don't find his past level of engagement at all encouraging. JohnInDC (talk) 15:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
        • The response on Capitalismojo's page here (after Capitalismojo told him to stop being disruptive) was after he removed the Democratic Party from four politicians (, , , ) and oddly just removed the wikilink to the party from another one , in under 10 minutes. And he responds innocently "what did I do that was so disruptive?" Capitalismojo probably did not follow up out of exasperation. —Мандичка 😜 15:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
          • Do you realize that he was the one who wrote those articles as well as wrote the particular sentences of affiliation in the first place? Odd that he is called disruptive to edit on this one when no other editor had touched it. I believe that he saw himself as trying to correct perceived mistakes. He removed whole sentences about party affiliation when they stood alone to that fact but as you note with the delinking, he wasn't trying to obscure facts. Note that he didn't remove the categories of political affiliation? Being told that you are disruptive on an article that only you have edited is just a bit bizarre so yeah, I think his question was in good faith. He wasn't really edit warring or anything like that. He reverted once in this history but he was trying to communicate also. He was misunderstood in this thread ("overdoing" wasn't in reference to the reverts he was doing that day but the inclusions in the past). The hard clamp down and admonishment in that light looks bizarre and I imagine frustrating. We should wait and put the pitchforks and torches up for the time being. He really isn't being that disruptive.
             — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
            • Oh, but he is being that disruptive. Removing political affiliations is, as I said above, small change. Beyond that little stuff he has been routinely, almost systematically, removing information from articles relating to Jews, Muslims, Mormons, gays & lesbians and other groups. I didn't provide an exhaustive list at the outset because I figured my examples were sufficiently representative, and distressing, that more would be perceived as piling on. But if there are questions about the impropriety of his edits, here are a few more (still not exhaustive - there are more still) examples from just the past six days:

Todd Novak - removed reference to the subject's sexual orientation (gay) and associated categories. No edit summary.

Madison, Wisconsin - removed text re Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus and others with the edit summary of "simplified".

Argus (dab) - removed all dab links to Greek Mythology. No edit summary. I can't see anything particularly biased about this but it is plainly disruptive.

Precursor (religion) - removing non-Christian examples; no edit summary.

What assurance - indeed even what indication do we have that he plans to discontinue these inappropriate edits, beyond the fact that he hasn't changed a page in a day and a half? Maybe the answer is, for now, leave him be and keep an eye on him and see if he continues his POV editing when he picks up the cursor again; fine. But I can't swallow describing these things as "not disruptive". JohnInDC (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why it matters that he created those original articles, there is no WP:OWNERSHIP. I don't see why he would decide to strip them out now unless it's related to his edit that he only works on Republican articles now or he's losing his marbles. I'm rather surpised that anyone would think removing entire sections related to Jews and gays from articles is not really that disruptive, but I suppose it explains why you're defending him. —Мандичка 😜 17:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

In my oppose above I stated "I do think that he should be more conversant on the POV topics." I too, would like to hear an explanation about those edits.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Berean Hunter and Drmies. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment-I agree with Dennis Brown that medication or some health issues may be involved with Packerfansam. Packerfansam mentioned about some health issues on the talk page. I agree with JohnInDC about keeping an eye on Packerfansam and see what happens. There is a possibility that Packerfansam may ceased editing again for a long time. Thank you-RFD (talk) 11:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Strong SupportNeutral I am concerned that this editor's contribution history needs to be carefully reviewed for POV edits and unexplained removals with corrections made - I've made some over the past couple of days. Regarding the former, just a brief review of history shows many stub articles of Wisconsin politicians were created by this editor. For members of the Republican party, their party affiliation was included by the editor in the original article and remains to this day. For members of the Democratic party, no party affiliation was included by this editor at any time. Other editor(s) added the affiliation after this odd anti-Democrat etc. POV editing was noted. Regarding removal of content and tags, in addition to the misleading edit summaries noted earlier, most such edits have no edit summary at all. Both of these sets issues I mention come down to fundamental lack of trust regarding this editors contributions. I've looked at several pages of his contributions and found that these issues are consistent. How far back one must go to review and correct these clearly intentional dishonest edits? An indefinite block while such a review and correction takes place, such as what was done with Colonel Henry, is necessary to prevent further damage to the encyclopedia. Once corrected, and after the editor responds constructively in an unblock request, then the editor can hopefully begin editing in accordance with WP's policies. JoeSperrazza (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I am switching my !vote to Neutral based on the interactions here User_talk:JoeSperrazza#Many_thanks- and here . I believe the editor "gets it", and we're not going to get a point-by-point "mea culpa" - which we shouldn't need (but I admit a little more of an affirmative "I understand what the concerns are and will do better" would have been the best response. Nor do I think we're going to get help fixing old problems (everything from their IP is fixed, and going back a month on their contributions I don't see any serious issues that have not been fixed that are left - but there was plenty of fixing required". Those who work in Wisconsin articles should keep an eye on the editor - I'll periodically take a look, too. Future problems should lead to a very swift topic ban from "religion, sexuality and politics, in any namespace, broadly construed". Finally, perhaps the editor would like some coaching or mentoring if in doubt in the future, or just to informally ask some questions. If so, I volunteer to help. Best regards to all, JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

He hasn't edited in two days and no current disruption is occurring so you have time to review his contribs and make corrections if necessary. He has a clean block log, many articles to his credit and I believe he should be allowed to reply before any decisions are made. If he refuses to engage and starts editing in the same way then blocking may be called for.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps he should not have a clean block log. This is very obvious NPOV editing, done in a way to hide his changes. Lacking a response soon, how can no action be a correct response? JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll say it this way, if and when he begins to edit again he will need to address this issue within an hour or two - giving him plenty of time to respond after seeing the messages on his talk page and reading through this thread. If he makes more POV edits without responding or fails to respond entirely, my "oppose for now" above will likely be converted to "support indef blocking" and if consensus supports the action, I'll do the block myself. By the way, I attempted to email him but he does not have a specified email address.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

He responded above about 30 minutes ago. --I am One of Many (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Cheers. I edit-conflicted and was going to remove my comment when I realized that. :) I was reading my watchlist from bottom up. I haven't read the reply yet.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment. As noted here User_talk:Packerfansam#Incorrect_citation_.2F_reference_in_several_articles , the editor is continuing with problematic creation of and edits to articles, yet has dissembled in response to questions about their edits and not, as of yet, either paused in their edits nor given any effort to identifying or correcting their problem edits to date. A block is designed to protect the integrity of the encyclopedia. One is needed. JoeSperrazza (talk) 11:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't see any disruption here. The only issue is a content discussion that is ongoing, not disruptive in any way. Mentioning that the population of NYC is 1.5% Jewish is negligible, for example. --92slim (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - It's more like 15% and, as the largest concentration of Jews outside of Israel, not "negligible" under any sensible meaning of the word. JohnInDC (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I was starting to wonder if I'd been too harsh in recommending an indefinite block until she posted the excuses above, which are just another example of deceptive editing. Worst of all, 30 minutes after "apologizing" for her deceptive behavior, she logged out to continue it. KateWishing (talk) 18:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Summing up thus far: By way of response from Packerfansam, we have:

• Some of those edits might have been made by someone with access to my account, or not – I don’t know. (“I can't answer definitely without carefully combing through and trying to remember things, but it's happened with me on other sites in the past so it's possible.”)
• I apologize if any of my edits were misleading.
• There was nothing wrong with removing mention of non-dominant religions from various articles, nor with my edit to New York City.

She has neither denied making, nor offered to explain, any of the several other examples set forth here.

Whatever happened between August 2014 and May 2015, as of now, someone with access to the Packerfansam account believes (again, just by way of example) that mention of non-mainstream Christian religions makes Misplaced Pages articles too long; that references to a subject’s homosexuality or Judaism are best omitted; that “Playboy” is not a reliable source and that material sourced to it should be removed (from the University of Wisconsin–Madison edit war) – and appears to see nothing wrong with any of this.

Since returning from her 48 hour absence, Packerfansam has made 37 edits, including 6 new articles and 2 new categories. She has had ample opportunity to consider the comments here and respond thoughtfully but has commented here only four times and offered no meaningful explanation. She has a clear history of disruptive and POV editing, and I do not understand why, absent clear statements from her that she 1) understands that the edits are unacceptable and 2) pledges to make no more of them, ever, a block of at least some duration should not be forthcoming. JohnInDC (talk) 14:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• After again blanking their talk page, the editor is engaging in a discussion at my talk page User_talk:JoeSperrazza#Many_thanks-. I would like to be able to convince the editor to do something to regain our trust. Answering some questions I posed is one way. Perhaps there are other ways. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Indefinite does not mean infinite, and the medical issue suggests that we should block until she is able to explain that she understands what was wrong with the edits, whether or not she remembers making them. Few argue against her edits being disruptive. We have blocked an editor who we believe is medically unable to contribute constructively. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet

Please check 24.178.45.221 as a possible sockpuppet of Packerfansam. Examples of similar edits: , , , , , - - - - - . 32.218.32.164 (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Same edits, same squishy edit summaries, same time of day, a Wisconsin emphasis, some of the same articles - indeed the same edit war at University of Wisconsin-Madison - no question. Nice catch. JohnInDC (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see anything inconsistent with WP:VALIDALT. --I am One of Many (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps not. But it yields several more examples of biased editing, we can add edit warring to the list of problems (odd that I hadn't noticed it before, even Packerfansam alone), and it calls into question Packerfansam's assertion above that she had been away from the computer for two and a half days inasmuch as one of the IP's edits comes in the middle of that period. JohnInDC (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• In the UW-Madison edit war JohninDC referred to, Packerfansam's POV edits were reverted 4 times, then 24.178.45.221 took over, making the same edits. (See last 6 edits listed above.) That's classic sockpuppetry - using an alternate account to deceive or mislead other editors or to avoid sanctions. The most recent example involved Packerfansam making an innocuous edit at 21:02, then 24.178.45.221 returning almost an hour later (3 minutes after Packerfansam's last edit and after commenting on this board), to make a questionable edit that was reverted by JohninDC. That's a clear attempt to evade detection. 32.218.32.164 (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think it is good idea to stop the mind reading for now. There are good possible explanations for everything that we just don't know right now. First, if he is concerned about others using his account, he may log off every time he leaves the computer and sometimes forgets to log on when he returns. It may be that he removed minority religions based on a good faith assumption, but he will come to see that it is not a good idea. Let's see if we can get this resolved peacefully so that everyone can get back to constructing an encyclopedia and retaining productive editors. --I am One of Many (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, please look at these edits, clear examples of WP:EVADE, made after these issues have been raised at the editor's talk page and WP:ANI and after the editor responded here:

1. Revision as of 01:32, 2015 June 17 , , Editing Legal issues with fan fiction as 24.178.45.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), removes cited information without edit summary or talk page explanation. The 2nd & 3rd edits noted remove sexuality and religion information, edits that are consistent with other problematic edits that have been made by this editor.
2. Revision as of 17:02, 2015 June 17 Editing Fond du Lac, Wisconsin as Packerfansam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), adds reference to a Wisconsin political stub article * ], Wisconsin State Assemblyman
3. Revision as of 17:53, 2015 June 17 Editing Fond du Lac, Wisconsin as 24.178.45.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), removes referenced information about other than Christianity (in this case, Atheism, but as documened elsewhere, she has been similarly removing Judaism, etc.) 42.7% of Fond du Lac residents do not affiliate with any ].<ref></ref>
4. Latest revision as of 23:58, 2015 June 17 Editing Gottlieb Wehrle as Packerfansam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), makes a minor edit to another Wisconsin political article.

This is not supported by the "I forgot to login" excuse, just as their other problematic edits are not explained by the "I was hacked excuse". Per Special:Contributions/24.178.45.221, this has been going on since May 15th of this year. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Hoaxing again at Kenny Loggins

We need a range block because of recent activity by the long-term hoaxer, the Kenny Loggins vandal. IPs involved today are:

• 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:5413:8F44:17A6:5B40 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:316C:945D:AF85:E19A (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Perhaps we can temporarily rangeblock 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0. Thanks in advance. Binksternet (talk) 18:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

And now another spate of hoaxing by 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:A1D3:9BE1:C1A2:3BFC (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)).

15 of the last 16 hoaxer IPs started with 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0, so it would be very helpful to block this range. Binksternet (talk) 01:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

And very quickly after that one we have this one: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:7132:4B62:E645:80BE (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Still looking for an appropriate rangeblock. Binksternet (talk) 01:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• HEY. ADMINS. SOMEBODY GIVE BINKSTERNET A RANGEBLOCK PLEASE. I'd do if if I knew how to. I mean, I can, but I'd probably block a whole state. That still doesn't make me care, as long as it's not my own state, but the Foundation will probably cut my allowance. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: Maybe this will help: IPv6 range calculation tool. It was recommended last time this came up here, and I bookmarked it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks, but I really shouldn't be messing with any ranges... Drmies (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
      • The range needed to cover the four above IPs, as calculated from that tool, is 2602:306:bd7e:caa0::/64 - I have no idea if this is a sensible range to block though. Sam Walton (talk) 15:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
        • mw:Help:Range_blocks/IPv6 implies that this covers 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPs, so perhaps not appropriate. That said, that's a fraction of the total possible IPv6 IPs, so I have no idea. Sam Walton (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
          • Pinging Mr. IPv6 Jasper Deng to see if he can help out. And (canvassing) perhaps more admins could put in their two cents here? --NeilN 15:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
            • Just trying to bring another issue to your attention here, so not sure if it is appropriate for me to comment, but a 64 bit prefix is the minimum fully functional subnet that can be allocated. So it is probably a very good fit to block BFG (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
• @Drmies and Samwalton9: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0::/64 indeed is the range you want to block. The duration you should use for this is the same as you would use for a single AT&T IPv4 address, although this should be considered more static than a dynamic IPv4. If it's a residential Internet provider, a /64 in IPv6, i.e. having the first four digit groups in common, is easily treatable as a single IP. Do not be deterred by the number of addresses blocked, because by design very few of them will be used.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Jasper, I appreciate the note, but I'm just not going to venture there. I wish we had a button we could push that would pull up a list of admins willing and able to make rangeblocks. I'm not one of them. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm blocking 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for two months. The log shows that the previous rangeblock by User:Monty845 expired on 14 June, which does fit with the dates of the above vandalism reports. EdJohnston (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to add a technical note, while a /64 should be, and appears here to be a single user akin to an IPv4 address, the protocol is new enough that we should keep in mind the possibility that it may not always be, with either rapidly changing /64s from one user, or many users on one /64. Also, when this block expires, if we need to extend it again, linking the previous range block log may help get a quicker block. Monty₈₄₅ 00:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I do have to emphasize that looking at WHOIS is of utmost importance with IPv6; my comment strongly depends on the ISP being residential. It most certainly does not apply to mobile or satellite ISP's.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies, Category:Wikipedia_administrators_willing_to_make_range_blocks --NeilN 00:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks NeilN. No wonder I hadn't seen it--it's only been here since 2008. As far as I'm concerned, though, it should be renamed: "able to make..." Drmies (talk) 01:31, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Problematic behavior by Seattleditor - Probably COI, personal attacks, disruptive editing.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Seattleditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing on Roger Libby the past few days. Their edits on the article's talk page indicate a conflict of interest and, up until now, they've mostly keep their editing to that talk page. Today, after I edited the page to reduce its SOAPy nature, they began removing maintenance templates from the page. I attempted to engage the user about it (here). They had done similarly in the past () saying it would negative effect the article subject's customers. After this, the user made this edit on my talk page accusing me deliberate malice that requires admin review and that I explained to you that as a practicing psychologist and psychotherapist, it is highly damaging to this licensed mental health professional to have his biography marked up with questions and errata.

I am requesting admin action on this. It appears that either the user is unable to handle their COI or they are NOTHERE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

agreed, there's a dearth of sources on that article and those that are there are almost all primary sources, Seattleditor is removing the tags indicating that fact, that's not cool at all. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, their use of "we" in their post on my user talk page makes me think the COI here is strong. Their post was completely out of line. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

In Response, EvergreenFir Has Misinterpreted Both Intent and Concerns

I am a practicing journalist, one who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists, who wrote an article about this Dr. for a Seattle area publication. There is no COI on my part. However EvergreenFir has several COIs. First, his only authored page, for a Murray A. Strauss, bios a person who is a rival of the good doctor. Most ironically, the two doctors authored a major research paper together on sex and violence (which contradicts the claim of no secondary sources, the editor's own biographical subject was a collaborator.) I mean no personal animosity or offense but the other apparent COI is in the editor's (EvergreenFir) profile where he has elected to make various statements about his own gender issues. Regardless of personal bias, it is not clear to me how a distinguished position title within an organization can be secondarily sourced. Where such attribution exists, it has been provided (such as to membership rosters on publicly accessible pages.) What is curious is why the editor does not choose to actually edit the text which has gone untouched for a great many months, and instead inject uncertainty and doubt. In fact, I had expressed my misgivings that this could do harm if the patients of this practicing sex therapist found that the same page that had been untouched for so long is suddenly pockmarked with multiple assertions of errata. When I "Talked" about that to EvergreenFir I stated that, for my part, I was open to any edits he may like to provide but I requested he did not make the doctor appear unworthy or uncredentialed in light of the concurrent sensitivities of doctor-patient relationships. I presumed he was okay with that so I removed the template(s) for that reason and that reason alone. Please be advised, I did not author the section on the countless TV and radio appearances made by Dr. Libby which EvergreenFir has since removed. The "We" in my writing simply connotes that Dr. Libby sought my help since he was aware I had helped contribute to the original content. I have no COI whereas EvergreenFir 's COI is well documented. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Roger Libby is America's premiere Sex Therapist. If that is disturbing to this editor, he is welcome to call in a colleague. Oh, he actually did that and the colleague acknowledged that the academic credentials (post-doctoral) being beyond reproach. It seems to this relative neophyte that Misplaced Pages needs a way to make sourcing changes, IF necessary "behind the scenes" and not in a shameful, public way that casts doubt on the credibility or authority of a biography, especially in the cases of practicing health care professionals. Seattleditor (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think you might be a little confused as to how Misplaced Pages works. Writing an article for inclusion in a magazine kind of skirts the line of WP:NOTWEBHOST. But more importantly, if negative things about your friend can be reliably sourced, I'm afraid that isn't a violation of policy; see WP:BLP. Erpert 00:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Can someone please take care of these personal attacks? How does my gender identity have anything to do with this? And if the subject of an article asked you to come and comment on their Misplaced Pages article, that's a WP:COI (whereas writing articles about criminologists is not)... Seattleditor if you are the author of that article, then you are Searchwriter and currently sockpuppeting... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• The bio is certainly problematic as it contains just one secondary source, and most of it is unsourced. One solution is to remove anything unsourced and slowly re-build it. Seattleditor, if you're editing with two accounts, please pick one and retire the other (or link them in some way). Also, please don't make personal comments about EvergreenFir. Sarah 01:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• There's also an issue with the image, which Seattleeditor added as his own work, but the image is on Libby's website. Unless Seattleeditor took that photograph, it needs a release. Sarah 01:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Regarding the image, since it appears on the banner of a copyrighted website, I've requested deletion at Commons unless the uploader can show OTRS either ownership or a license to use the image from the copyright owner. BMK (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I whittled down the article quite a bit (diff) which was the apparent impetus for the hostility. Quite annoyed at these attacks and ridiculous claims. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Searchwriter started the Libby article at User:Searchwriter/sandbox on 20 February 2014. The image was uploaded by Seattle24x7 on 21 February 2014, and Seattleeditor says he is Seattle24x7, so the three accounts do seem to be one person. Yes, the attacks need to stop. Sarah 02:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• It seems from a brief look at Seattle24x7 and related websites that this is SEO/marketing. Perhaps it's better handled at COIN in case other articles or accounts are involved. Pinging Jytdog in case he wants to take a look. Sarah 04:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I left a long message for SeattleEditor at their talk page. Too long for ANI. I'd ask that folks give him a chance to reply there. Basically I am recommending that SeattleEditor change course or that we indef him per NOTHERE. Let's see what he says. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Thank you for taking the time to do that. Much appreciated. I hope the user responds favorably. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, ditto, thank you. Sarah 17:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Possibility of paid editing

As noted above, the Roger Libby article began in the sandbox of User:Searchwriter, as did the article Lane Powell, about a Seattle law firm. Both of the articles appear to have been intended to be promotional, and have only been rendered acceptable by stripping out large amounts of information which is unsourced or attributed only to primary sources.

This is the User Page for the editor of Seattle24x7.com, a Seattle news bureau Website. Thanks for your interest and comments. Everything we contribute to WikiPedia is fully "white-hat," attributed, and well-documented and includes citations.

The account name User talk:Seattle24x7 was username blocked in 2010. No edits exist in their contrib list, but their talk page indicates that they wrote an article on a book titled "The High Road Has Less Traffic", which was prodded as being self-published, and subsequently deleted at AfD as being non-notable.

The account User:Seattleditor was created just a few days ago, apparently for the purpose of editing the Roger Libby article. On their userpage they acknowledge that their former user name was "Seattle24x7", the name of their "Seattle-based e-zine". An examinination of the website shows quite clearly that it's a public-relations outlet: many of the articles are written by the CEOs of the companies they're about. This is clearly not a WP:RS, and not even a blog, it is, as its browser tab quite clearly states "Seattle's Internet Business Directory and Calendar".

What we have here is, I believe, paid editing on the part of Seattleeditor aka Seattle24x7 and Searchwriter. Seattleeditor is not " a practicing journalist ... who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists", he's a PR guy for hire, who'll do up an article on your law firm or your controversial medical practise, or whatever for his own "e-zine" or for Misplaced Pages.

I suggest that the unblocked accounts be blocked unless they comply with our requirements for paid editors as outlined on WP:TOU and WP:COI. That means an admission on their user page, and on article talk page of their conflict of interest and their status as a paid editor. It also means that they cannot directly edit the articles, but must make suggestions on the talk page which other editors can implement if they agree. BMK (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, folks should read Seattleditor's reply to Jytdog on their talk page here for an example of how not to write in a comprehensible way, how to hide the true nature of one's publication in convoluted and deceptive language, with phrases such as "pro bono" thrown in to make things look better, and how, in particular, not to answer straight-forward questions in a straight-forward manner. BMK (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Three other items:

• A picture of Dr. Libby was previously uploaded on en.wiki by user Searchwriter, and deleted for permission problems. Admins can look and see if File:Dr. Roger Libby in 2014.png is the same image that's currently in the article, which I have requested deletion of on Commons for the same reason.
• There's no doubt that the three accounts are the same person. After User:Seattle24x7 was username blocked, User:Seattleditor refrerred to it as his previous account. On the talk page of User:Searchwriter the editor reveals his real world name, and on the "Seattle24x7" website, the person of that name is described as "founder, publisher and managing editor of Seattle24x7, the founder of SearchWrite Search Marketing, an SEO, PPC and Social Media Thought Leader, and an SPJ award winner for Seattle magazine." This accords with the information in Seattleditor's response to Jytdog;s inquiry, and also reinforces the suspicion that SEO/promotion is what's going on here -- i.e. paid editing.
• Seattleditor's response on the Commons deletion request is informative.

(Incidentally, my understanding is that my second item is not WP:outing because the user revealed the information on their talk page. If an admin feels it oversteps the bounds, please delete the item.) BMK (talk) 12:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

BMK FYI, in my first iterations of my note to SeattleEditor I included their name in a quote from the "about the author" section of the seattle24x7 profile of Libby, and later redacted it. I emailed oversight and asked them to oversight the pre-redaction versions. They declined, saying it was not a violation of OUTING. So we are OK on using his RW name. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. BMK (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Propose indef per WP:NOTHERE

So SeattleEditor's reply was not what any of us wanted. They are NOTHERE and appear to be dug in so far that there is no teaching them how to be HERE at this time. Jytdog (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC) (add missing "no" Jytdog (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC))

• Support EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:27, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support per their response to Jytdog. BMK (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support per their response to Jytdog and another response to me. I asked two simple yes/no questions and got more evasive, combative, non-responsive verbal spew. We don't have the time or energy to waste on this gaming of the system. — Brianhe (talk) 04:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I support sanctions against User:Seattleditor. I wish there was a WP:POMPOUS essay, but I'll just have to be left with citing meta:Don't be a jerk (in reference to comments aimed at EGF). (Oh, and is WP:PEACOCK even allowed as an argument against an editor's comments? Well, then, that, too.)

In addition to NOTHERE cited in the title, for the record I also agree that there is a violation of WP:NPOV here that rises to WP:COI. I was hoping for @Jytdog:'s promised WP:COIN post before weighing in, but the original {{long}} comment is incorporated by reference to the reply to it, above.

I also agree that there may be a WP:SOCK issue here (I'd hope EGF will file a WP:SPI if appropriate). I'm not really sure which is worse, COI or SOCK, I feel they are both duplicitous.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 04:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Since Jimbo probably wouldn't approve, I'll refrain from suggesting an alternate title for an essay on how to respond to such contributors... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Holding note. There is consensus for an indef block per WP:NOTHERE. Unless something else eventuates, I intend to place that block after the AfD discussion mentioned below has been decided; Seattleditor should preferably have a chance to comment in the AfD. Please feel free to continue discussing Jytdog's block proposal in this section while we wait. Bishonen | talk 22:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC).

• So where do we stand now? I'm still very offended by the editor above referring to EGF in the masculine. I do look at that before using these pronouns. EGF hasn't declared a preferred pronoun, but has declared GQ. So, no more pronouns there for me. I disagree to a large extent to what EGF has said on the talk pages of the Caitlyn Jenner article, but not to the extent of actually going to battle about it. This editor may yet convince me that they are right and I am wrong. I'm willing to listen. (And not willing to contribute to the article to that extent; I admit ignorance.)

So what now? How do we move forward with a sanction against User:Seattleditor?

What I say is to follow P&P (Policy and procedure), cite COI, NPOV violations, SPA and potentially SP (sock puppeting). With these accusations against Seattleditor how can WP:POMPOUS prevail as an alternative narrative (it's OK to blow-hole against editors here, really?)? Impose a sanction, I'm not really clear which sanction is appropriate, but let it be clear that esteemed editors (regardless of our disagreement with them) are not to be attacked with pomposity, and not facts. This does not, and shall not, intimidate us.

Understand, those listening in, that as my understanding goes, that this ANI was originally filed based on this: User talk:EvergreenFir#We appeal to the highest authority. I think I just coughed up a lung.

We're all still waiting for Seattleditor to have EGF "disbarred" here.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 06:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Roger Libby now on AfD

Literally all the sources of the article are primary sources, in the sense of being publications by Dr Libby himself — not "nearly" all, a phrase used above I suppose in honour of the current note 13. That footnote appears to cite a different author, Murray A. Straus, which may mislead the unwary, but it actually references a 1978 anthology which contains an article by Libby; i. e., that too is a primary source. Or not a source so much; it's a publication, an article, which appears in the list of Libby's publications. So, no secondary sources, and none have been offered since Evergreen Fir tagged the article three weeks ago. On the contrary, User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account, has attempted to remove the tags protesting that they're "damaging to the credibility of the doctor" and "deleterious to the patients of the doctor". (That edit was made by an IP, clearly User:Seattleditor logged out accidentally, not attempting in any way to hide.) All this suggests to me that Roger Libby shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages. We don't do self-sourced bios, because they can't show notability. I've listed it on Articles for deletion. Seattleditor's understanding of policy does appear to be poor, and the way they answer questions quite evasive, but perhaps we might as well put off the issue of a block until the AfD is done, so that they can take part in it. Bishonen | talk 07:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC).

• Bishonen, I thank you for your wise intervention.

There is a point that I wish to clarify for those listening in: "User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account" is not a reference to the Dr. Libby article. Instead, the SPA accusation, is I feel, accurate, on the basis that the user advocates for articles written at Seattle24x7. Dr. Libby's article there happens to be among those (as has been proven by others, above). The "single purpose" here, is about Seattle24x7, a PR news site (as another user put it, "CEO porn"), not about Dr. Libby himself.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 18:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• just fyi - i received an email from a person saying he was Roger Libby. Not happy about the tags on the article and among other things wrote: "In (sic - meant "if" i believe) my many publications, academic and professional credentials and references (including the links to professional associations which are publicly accessible online) are not sufficient, I would ask you to immediately remove the page entirely as it calls into question my professional standing given your editorial staff's lack of certainty in my credentials. Under the circumstances, I consider the "public editing" of the page to be damaging to my professional sex therapy practice and my reputation. Frankly, it has me wondering what other options might exist for what I sincerely believe to be an act of defamation. It appears that on Misplaced Pages everyone is guilty until proven innocent." I'll also make a note of this on the AfD. I replied nicely and fwded to wmf legal. Jytdog (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

  Thank you @Jytdog:! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:13, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Good thing Libby isn't an editor here, since "Frankly, it has me wondering what other options might exist for what I sincerely believe to be an act of defamation" is a not-so-veiled legal threat. (One that I hope he doesn't go through with, since all he'll do is throw away a lot of money, as there is obviously no "defamation" in determining that he doesn't qualify under our notablity guidelines.) Perhaps Libby will think twice next time before engaging a SEO/PR person who doesn't understand Misplaced Pages -- and if he could tell his professional friends that as well, all the better for us. There are a hell of a lot of doctors in the English-speaking world, but only a very tiny percentage of them qualify for a having a Misplaced Pages article. BMK (talk) 20:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Unacceptable behavior of editor

Hello,

I want to inform you about unacceptable behavior of the editor Croata concerning the articles Bulgars/ Dulo clan.

During the past 3 months (since the beginning of March 2015) he was constantly removing all my edits on these articles stating that they were "vandalism", "unrelated info", "false positive edits", "fringe theories edits" or simply calling them POV. He denies the reliability of obviously excellent sources as Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank stating that they represent minority point of view. For example on 19 June 2015‎ he removed my edit on the article Bulgars where I have added information about the origin of Utigurs, a major Bulgar tribe, stating that the edit is "false positive" and "unrelated info". On 6 June 2015‎ I have warned him that in his version of the article Dulo clan, his conclusion "Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples" is not supported by the cited four books - nowhere on the cited pages there is such a conclusion. He ignored my warning and reverted the article 6 times after that without bothering to correct this sentence or to remove it. On the talk page of Dulo clan article I have suggested many ways how to improve the article, for example :

• I have suggested to move the information about the historical rulers of the clan from the section "Research History" to the article's intro where this information should be placed because it is well documented
• I have suggested to removed the information that early rulers of the clan were claiming Attilid descend from the article's intro to "Research History" or to restate it in the form that some historians think they had such a descend. It is not known if they were claiming this.
• I have suggested to improve the article Bulgars by replacing the very first sentence "... semi-nomadic warrior tribes of Turkic extraction" with more accurate statement " The three major tribes were Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs, whose origin is still unidentified"

None of these suggestions (and many more) were accepted. The editor Croata doesn't accept any independent additions, he considers his versions of the articles to be final and set in stone. Also he tends to place disproportionate importance of the Turkic theory about the origin of Bulgars and Dulo clan and doesn't accept other theories about their origin to be added to the articles. Such a behavior is unacceptable and it does not help the readers of these articles.

PavelStaykov (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've reformatted. You didn't notify Crovata, and misspelled his name. The very top of this page clearly states you must do this. I have gone ahead and done so. Now to look at the merits.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
• This is going to take longer than I have to give tonight, but the other stuff still needed doing. User:Bbb23 is familiar with Crovata, so I would draw his attention here. Looking briefly, it seems more of a content dispute, but there may be some behavioral issues by one or both, so I will leave to B and others to determine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• No promises, but I'll try to look at this tomorrow.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I experience technical problems and don't know if will manage to actively follow the discussion. However, I neither have time to waste discussing the same thing over and over and over again. The violation of WP:NPOV principles, lack of neutrality and knowledge of the editor PavelStaykov, and in general about the topic and dispute, you can read at his talk page, Bulgars Talk and Dulo clan Talk. The scholars Zuev and Pulleyblank were only lately introduced, not months ago, and their minor claims have no relation to Bulgars. It is related with Utigurs and their article. The Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were not Bulgar tribes, they were different tribes who in periods were part of Bulgar confederation, but whose names etymologically clearly show Turkic origin. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs areas badly written, and currently work on them. He never answered which "four books", and I ask him again to respond. A simple read of the Bulgars article is enough to dismiss his claims, and often personal original research (which he calls "independent"). The Turkic theory is the only theory with verified evidence, and weight per NPOV. It is generally considered and discussed, and does not dismiss other ethnogenetic and cultural influence like other theories, Indo-European or Iranian, which do not have substantial amount of sources, reliability or confirmation for such claims. Not to mention how are ideologically motivated by the Bulgarian scholars during the anti-Turkish sentiment in Bulgaria, considered by unreliable "scholars" (PavelStaykov cited a scholar who is not educated in the historiography or linguistics, but medicine) and a minority. Such a fringe theory also has an article - Kingdom of Balhara.

The editor PavelStaykov denies and called modern scholarship considerations as junk and part of "some Russian propaganda". As far the points go, 1. The list of rulers follows the list of the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans and their names and meaning are discussed in the section 2. There is no need for this, and just for record, previously in March and April he strongly opposed the reshaping of the statement as personally considered it was Attila itself and denied scholars general consideration 3. It is generally accepted they were most prominently of Turkic extraction (with some admixture of Hunnic, Iranian and other Indo-European origin and influence).--Crovata (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get embroiled in a content dispute about which I know next to nothing. Even if I did, the only issue here for me is conduct. I've blocked User:PavelStaykov twice for edit-warring at Dulo Clan, the first time for 48 hours and the second for one week. When I blocked him the second time, I also warned User:Crovata about his conduct. There's been no reverts at that article since June 11. There has been one addition (I assume it's brand new but didn't check) at Bulgars by PavelStaykov and one revert by Crovata on June 19. The two editors have to use some sort of dispute resolution to resolve their content issues. As for their conduct, if I see either editor revert at either article, that editor risks being blocked, and a revert back after a block may also be met with a block. Both of them should stay away from both articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Bbb23: The problem with the whole issue is that there's no constructive content dispute for Misplaced Pages, yet the fringe theories and personal POV/OR which are forced to be included in the articles which have nothing to do with - the violation of NPOV. I advise all involved to read all three linked talk pages to understand the situation. I cannot agree with the last statement, why someone who defended the articles from unconstructive edits, and rewrote the articles according modern scholarship, must stay away? Since 14 May personally rewrote the Bulgars article and done major constructive edits, and as currently is in the process of GOCE review for GAN review, and there few cites additionally for inclusion, it seeks if not edit activity at least my attention.--Crovata (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
    • If it's as clear-cut as you state, then the dispute resolution should be straightforward. In the interim, my warning stands.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
      • @Bbb23: Sincerely, I simply do not know which of the claims, articles and talk pages above should take for dispute resolution. They all were answered here, talk pages time ago, and there probably even more he seeks for. I need your advice, and personal inclusion of PavelStaykov for dispute resolution as he began those disputes. He needs to decide what claims should be brought to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I don't want any kind of disapproval from his side if missed to mention some of his claims we dispute. @PavelStaykov: Respond.--Crovata (talk) 17:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

First, I want to answer Crovata's accusation that I have "aversion for the term "Turks"" - this is not true. I am not obliged to share such personal information here, but I will do it. I grew up in small town in southern Bulgaria ( Haskovo ) which is of mixed population - Bulgarians and Turks. One of my best friends during my childhood was a Turk. I live in Sofia now and one of my friends is also Turk, and I value his friendship more than that of many of my Bulgarian friends. So, I don't have "aversion for the term "Turks", nor I have aversion for Turkic people or their culture. What I want is simply these 2 articles to be written in the best possible way. Also before I start the discussion, I want to make some general remarks. It is a common misbelief that Bulgars are extinct, or that they merged with Slavic people 7-10 centuries AD thus forming contemporary Bulgarians. This is not true. Even now three type of faces can clearly be seen on the streets of Bulgaria, all of them of obvious Indo-European origin, but definitely distinct. It is especially striking if someone comes from abroad. The approximate ratio is 1:1:1. I can take photos and upload them to the Bulgar's article. My explanation is that the proposed by scholars merging of Bulgars, Slavs and Thracian's continues even today - after all Bulgaria was a rural country up to 1950-1960 and marriages happened inside small rural communities. One of my friends took genetic tests and he was told that he is of Thracian origin. Personally I don't need to do this to know that I am of Slavic origin - it's enough to look at myself in the mirror.

About the article Bulgars. 1. The very first sentence in its current version states that Bulgars were "tribes of Turkic extraction". This is not known for sure - may be they were, may be not. What is known for sure is that they were nomads. If they were Turks, of Turkic extraction, Iranian, or Indo-European tribes influenced by Turkic and Iranian people is still debated among scholars. Using euphemistic phrases as "Turkic extraction" is not a constructive edit, it is an obfuscation of the truth. It is much better to state that their origin is still unidentified and to enumerate different Bulgar tribes: Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs and so on. Crovata's opinion that these tribes were not Bulgars is ridiculous - just type these words in Google and read. Not to mention numerous books and textbooks where this is explained.

2. My second point is to state in the article intro that some of the Bulgar tribes participated in the union of the Huns - this is well documented. Most Roman, Greeks and Byzantines sources used the words Huns and Bulgars indiscriminately to describe the same people. Actually many scholars equate Bulgars and the (European) Huns. This can be done in the 3rd sentence of the article. This will help the reader to understand better the origin of the Bulgars. Stating that they envelop " other ethnic groups and cultural influences, such as Hunnic..." is not accurate. Huns were not ethnic group, they were conglomeration of different tribes, many of them Bulgars.

3. In the section "Etymology and origin" I want to include the identification made by Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank that Utigurs were Yuezhi tribe. Both scholars are renowned and the identification is undisputable. Also it is a base for research among many modern Bulgarian scholars as Pr. A. Stamatov, Dr. P. Tsvetkov, Dr. G. Voinikov and others.

4. Section "History" - the subtitle is Turkic migration. This is misleading and I would suggest to be removed. If Crovata is making such implications, probably he could explain exactly which Turkic tribes practiced artificial cranial deformation? "Further information: Turkic migration and Huns" - this is OK. The second sentence is controversial. What would mean "Interaction with the Hunnic tribes, causing the migration..." if the Bulgars were Huns themselves, to interact with whom? Also the cited source is not available online.

5. Section " History", cited source 40c, pages 127-128 - does not contain such information. Which line ?

6. Section ethnicity, the 3rd paragraph - it starts with "When the Turkic tribes began to enter into the Pontic–Caspian steppe...as early as the 2nd century AD" is also misleading. It is generally considered that Turkic migration started much later and that the tribes in question are of unknown origin, they spoke language similar to proto - Turkic. May be here we could include the explanation given by Zuev that these tribes were actually Wusuns?

7. Section " Anthropology and Genetics" emphasizes too much on the origin of the Turks - paragraphs 2 and 3. What is the point here ? This article is not about the origin of the Turks.

8. Bulgars practiced Artificial Cranial Deformation and this is stated in the article, but I think the discussion here could be extended, it is well known that European Huns practiced artificial cranial deformation and they can be traced (using this) to North China.

9. I want to include research paper (by Voinikov) that modern Bulgarian language contains a lot of Tocharian words. It is published in Bulgarian language but with Google translate it can be read by everyone.

93.152.143.113 (talk) 03:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, it may be taken into account that through IP 93.152.143.113 wrote the same person as the one through PavelStaykov. The info in the intro about personal life (and previously where allegedly confirmed that Pavel Staykov is the personal name, and by education physicist) is useless and irrelevant for the whole discussion. The all 9 points were already discussed, and properly dismissed as are against the general scholarship(!), actually any relevant scholar consideration. This points are based on extreme and specially chosed sources and very minor considerations. They just confirm the lack of knowledge, will to understand, and disregard of general scholarship and evidence. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs are currently being rewrote by me and his deny of their separate identity (which is something generally accepted!) is incredibly delusional and further discreditable. That's typical example of original research and personal POV violating NPOV. Even worse, he claims two different things, that the Utigurs point 1. were a Bulgar tribe, while in point 3. were a Yuezhi tribe. He doen't have basic knowledge about the Utigurs and Kutrigurs and how they existed in the vicinity of the Bulgars simultaneously, and participated in the battles and politics of Eastern Roman Empire. The Bulgars were not Huns, they were not equated at all, yet the name "Hun" became a general term or exonym for nomadic intruders from the East. This consideration, also in the point 4, is so wrong it's just ridiculous that it needs to be discussed. The scholar Dr. G. Voinikov revolutionary considerations (and the fringe Indo-European-Yuezhi theory) were not cited by any prominent scholar because he is an independent amateur scholar who is not at all educated in the field of linguistics or history - he finished medicine. No strange that no academic scholar cites his research. The personal POV and OR is based upon two reliable scholars (but whose considerations have nothing to do with Bulgars, but Utigurs, and claiming that the "identification is undisputable" is something generally not accepted!) and unreliable scholars. Replying to all the points for the XY time would be too long and waste of my time. @Dennis Brown:@Bbb23: Please give me advice how to properly write the dispute resolution, and for ever to end this unconstructive discussion. Should I cite every claim word by word? This 9 points deal with the article of the Bulgars, but not of the Dulo clan (where most of his activity was involved, and first comment dealt with).--Crovata (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

@Crovata: I didn't read the wall of text by the other party. I would forget about what the other user says. Their part in the dispute resolution is to set forth their own reasons for the content of the two articles. You, @Crovata, should decide what you disagree with (not set forth here) but what you disagree with in the two articles and explain why. @PavelStaykov: It is not a good idea to edit anywhere on Misplaced Pages without logging in to your account.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Bulgars were Huns, and Crovata knows this very well. Almost all serious historians accept this:

1. SANPING CHEN : "In fact contemporary European sources kept equating the Bulgars with the Huns" - page 8, line 1

2. Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen, The world of the Huns : Cassiodorus, writing his Gothic historv in the 520’s or early 530’s, and Ennodius (t 521) repeatedly calls the Bulgarians “Huns.” - page 164

Provided that what Ennodius said about the Bulgars, whom he equated with the Huns... page 199

Jordanes’ Bulgars and Huns in this chapter of the Getica are but two names of the same people. Schirren thought that Jordanes simply followed Cassiodorus, who in Varia VIII, 10, 4, likewise identified the Bulgars with the Huns. - page 432, line 5

3. Steven Runciman in his book " A history of the First Bulgarian Empire" repeatedly identifies Bulgars as Huns. The first part of the book is named The children of the Huns:

the blood of the Scourge of God flows now in the valleys of the Balkans, diluted by time and the pastoral Slavs. page 4, last line

On Attila’s death, his empire crumbled. His people, who had probably been only a conglomeration of kindred tribes that he had welded together, divided again into these tribes; and each went its own way. One of these tribes was soon to be known as the Bulgars. page 5

the Bulgar branch of the Huns - page 7 line 4

The Bulgars, we know, were Huns ... - page 12, line 7

the Imperial writers use their name, the Huns’, and the Bulgars’ indiscriminately to describe the same race. - page 15, line 16

and so on. Bulgars and Huns were the same people - that's why many historian use the term Hunno-Bulgars. I don't know what game is playing Crovata, but it is not serving the main purpose of every Encyclopedia - to tell the readers the truth. His next "invention" about Utigurs and Kutrigurs - every serious book states that they were Bulgar tribes:

Hyun Jin Kim, The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe

the Utigur wing of the Bulgar Huns - page 253, cit. 28

Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars - page 141, line 6

Steven Runciman :

it is impossible not to see in the Bulgars of Theophanes the bulk of the old Utigur people - page 15, line 13

Already in 1772 (Allgem. Nord. Geschichte, 358), the German historian August Schloetzer identified the Utigurs and the Kutrigurs with Bulgars, on the basis of the information provided by Greek-language late antiquity chronicles (Procopius, Agathias of Mirena, Menander, Theophylact Simocatta). Procopius of Ceasarea points out that Utigurs and Kutrigurs attacked the Goths during the fourth century.

The whole story is simple. Approximately around 2000 BC, a second wave of Indo-Europeans appear in North China. They were practicing artificial cranial deformation - the first graves with artificially deformed skulls in Tarim Basin (in North China) are from around 2000 BC. These people later were called by Chinese Yuezhi and Wusuns. With the rise of Xiongnu(Mongol-Turkic Huns) Yuezhi lost several wars against Xiongnu (between 210-160 BC - very well documented by Chinese) and move into modern day Kazahstan, around the Aral sea, in the interfluvial of Syr-Darya - Amu-Darya. Part of Wusuns stay and part of them move with Yuezhi, they were the same people after all, although they often warred between. That part of Wusuns who stayed gave rise to Ashina Turks, as Y. Zuev always pointed out - Ashina clan originated from Wusuns, who were Tochars( = the general name for Indo-European people of North China). After 2 century BC graves with artificially deformed skulls disappear from Tarim Basin. They appear in Kazahstan. Burials of podboy type also appear there. With the disintegration of Xiongnu descendants, Turkic migration was initiated and Ases - Tochars (Ases- Yuezhi- Wusuns) were pushed from Kazahstan into Europe during 4 century AD and became known as European Huns. Artificially deformed skulls disappear from Kazahstan and appear in Europe. European Huns can be traced back to North China by artificial circular type cranial deformation. Both Yuezhi and Bulgars did practice circular type cranial deformation.

This theory is supported by several key facts, well established, and they must be presented in the article to the reader:

1. There is no evidence that European Huns ( and Bulgars ) were Xiongnu:

   Otto Maenchen-Helfen questioned the lack of anthropological and 
   ethnographic proximity between European Huns and Xiongnu.  
   Edward Arthur Thompson in 1948 in his monograph on the Huns denies the 
   continuity of European Huns from Xiongnu.

2. There is no convincing evidence that the language of European Huns(and Bulgars) was Turkic, only 33 personal names have survived (Pritsak), indeed, they seem to be Turkic, but to judge from this that the hole nation was Turkic is too naive.

3.There are academic sources stating the connections: Utrigurs-> Yuezhi, Vokil-> Yuezhi

Edwin G. Pulleyblank and many modern Bulgarian scholars identify the Bulgar Utigurs as one of the tribes of the Yuezhi.

4. There are research papers showing that in modern Bulgarian language there are many Tocharian words. Yuezhi were Thocarian tribes and they spoke Tocharian language.

5. The genetic tests show that paternal ancestry between the Bulgarians and the Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations either did not exist or was negligible.

6. There are archaeological excavations of necropolises in northern Bulgaria and strikingly similar necropolises in Kazakhstan dated from 1 century BC till 3 century AD when Yuezhi lived there. Also on the right bank of the river Amu Darya, near the rock complexes Kara-Tyube and Chelpik was found the sign of Dulo- Upsilon "|Y|".

Summing the information from these 7 points( including the data about artificial cranial deformation) - linguistic, archaeological, academic - show that:

   European Huns (and Bulgars) originate from the pre-Turkic Indo-European   
   population from northern China and particularly from the people known to
   the Chinese as Yuezhi. During their movement (from 2 BC till 4 AD) to
   Europe they were influenced by different groups of people, especially   
   Turkic and Iranian groups.   

Instead of using phrases as "Turkic extraction" and "Turkicized Sarmatians" it is much better to use the the real names of these people because they are known actually - Yuezhi and Wusuns. To what extent the language was Turkic is difficult to say - it was a mixture of Tocharian, Turkic and Iranian languages. There is a research paper explaining this: " Was the Tocharian language really Tocharian?"

About Dulo clan article. I would suggest:

1. About the article intro - to remove the phrase "Western Turks" - it is not true. Western Turks are much later phenomenon. We could restate it with " Early Turks".

2. About the article intro - to remove the statement " they were claiming Attilid descend". This is knot known - some historians think so, some( in fact most) think they were descendants of Attila.

3. To include that Dulo was the ruling dynasty of the Utigur Huns - this is true, and that Utigurs are identified by Zuev and Pulleyblank as one of the tribes of Yuezhi. The name Yuezhi means " Moon clan". This is the explanation why Turks from Turkey have Moon on their flag - they incorporated that part of Wusuns and Yuezhi who didn't move to Europe. That part became their ruling dynasty Ashina, which is Tocharian word for clear, pale blue - Yasna. That's why they call themselves "sky Turks". This is the historical truth. Bulgars and Ashina Turks have common ancestors - Tochars.

4. To remove completely the last sentence from the section origin:

" Burmov, Peter B. Golden, Gyula Németh and Panos Sophoulis concluded that claiming of Attilid descent shows the intermingling of European Huns elements with newly arrived Oğuric Turkic groups, as the number of evidence of linguistic, ethnographic and socio-political nature show that Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples."(4 books cited here)

nowhere in the cited 4 books there is such conclusion - that " Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples" - where, which line? Also, this sentence is illogical - claiming Attilid descend shows....they were Turks. Why? This is completely Crovata's own conclusion. What is the implication here - that Attila was Turk or what ?

5. To move the information for the historical rulers of the clan into articles introduction - it is well documented information and the reader will read what is sure for these rulers. This information belongs to the article's intro, not Research History.

6. To include back the information about the Martenica - there are archaeological evidences that such adorments were used in Tarim basin and central Asia and they were brought to the Balkan peninsula by the Huns(Bulgars). PavelStaykov (talk) 00:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Sanping_Chen_SOME_REMARKS_ON_THE_CHINESE_BULGARIAN.pdf
2. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/sr_1_1.htm
3. https://books.google.bg/books?id=fX8YAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=Kutrigurs+Utigurs&source=bl&ots=dSdCluNu37&sig=fJL69CRzXwYpjvvEcZ6kJuM8ioY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6dA-VdaHAYTcavWagIAB&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Kutrigurs%20Utigurs&f=false
4. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Usuns/ZuevHunsandUsunsEn.htm
5. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Usuns/ZuevHunsandUsunsEn.htm, page 23
6. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/65_Craniology/YablonskyTracingHunsEn.htm
7. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/823134_2
8. https://books.google.bg/books?id=fX8YAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA33&dq=artificial+cranial+deformation+tocharians&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eGhOVdGoIYKQsAHN84CwBg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=artificial%20cranial%20deformation%20tocharians&f=false - p. 33
9. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/SOME%20ANCIENT%20CHINESE%20NAMES%20IN%20EAST%20TURKESTAN%20-%20final.pdf - p.23
10. http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dan11.htm
11. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/OBIChAYaT_NA_IZKUSTVENATA_DEFORMACIYa_NA_ChEREPA_PRI_PRABLGARITE.pdf
12. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly1En.htm,p.42-p.46
13. http://ide.li/article2285.html
14. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly2En.htm, p.62
15. http://www.protobulgarians.com/Kniga%20AtStamatov/Prarodina.htm
16. http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV%20-%20PROIZHOD%20NA%20BAALGARITE%20-%20KNIGA%20-%202009.pdf
17. Pulleyblank, 1966, p. 18
18. https://www.academia.edu/4965415/%D0%A2%D0%9E%D0%A5%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%9E-%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%98_%D0%95%D0%97%D0%98%D0%9A%D0%9E%D0%92%D0%98_%D0%9F%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%95%D0%9B%D0%98
19. T.P. Kijatkina, Kraniologicheskie materialy iz kurgannyh mogil’nikov Severnoj Baktrii. - Trudy Tadzh. arheol. eksp., VII, s.211.
20. A.M. Mandel’shtam, Pamjatniki kushanskogo vremeni v Severnoj Baktrii, s.130.
21. http://www.iriston.com/nogbon/news.php?newsid=367
22. http://www.protobulgarians.com/Kniga%20AtStamatov/Prarodina.htm

LooneyTunerIan copyright and intimidation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I recently nominated a few articles from User:LooneyTunerIan for speedy deletion due to copyright violations (see: Looney Tunes Presents (VHS Series) and Bugs and Friends). Both times, he's responded on my user talk page and claimed that he will recreate these pages. His language has been aggressive and intimidating. See diffs here:

I've also noticed other similar behavior by this user on various user and article talk pages. See diffs/pages here:

I've attempted to politely explain the importance of our copyright policy to this editor when he's posted on my talk page, and I also posted a warning regarding appropriate interaction with other editors on his talk page back when it wasn't being directed at me. Could an administrator please take a look at this situation (both the intimidation and possibly explaining the copyright issues to this editor)? The most recent edit on my talk page in particular is making me a bit uncomfortable, and I'd like to remove myself from the situation. ~ Rob 02:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The aggressive commentary aside, what we have here sounds like a lack of competence. @LooneyTunerIan: needs to understand that copyright violations are dealt with very seriously. Threatening, or implying, to readd copyright violations is grounds for an immediate indefinite block. Edit warring over it is also foolish. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Forgot to note this instance of aggression as well: User_talk:LooneyTunerIan#October_2014 ~ Rob 03:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

LooneyTunerIan] has created 19 unsourced articles and shows no sign of stopping or working in collaboration with other editors. The editor is not here to contribute positively to the project. Flat Out (talk) 03:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter anymore. I have requested the articles that I have created to be deleted. That way, no one will ever know what Looney Tunes VHS/Laserdisc Collections there were or have been released ever again. For now on, the only Looney Tunes Home Video collection articles anyone will be looking for are either Blu-rays or DVDs. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Well that, or you could provide some sources to your articles and learn to work with other editors. Flat Out (talk) 04:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@LooneyTunerIan: If you wish to have those articles deleted, you can add {{Db-g7}} to the top of the article, provided that you are the only significant contributor to them. On the other hand, I'd much rather you stick around and improve the articles to meet WP:GNG and WP:V. No-one here has anything against you personally or Looney Tunes VHS/Laserdisc Collections. ~ Rob 05:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@Flat Out: No. :( It's better if they all get taken down and deleted. I even nominated them for deletion myself. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: You mean to say that adding {{Db-g7}} to all of my articles that I have created will automatically delete them? Are you sure it'll work? --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@LooneyTunerIan: It wouldn't immediately delete them, but it would add a template to the page that would mark them for speedy deletion under the criteria of WP:G7 (artist requesting deletion). Adding them to the category you've created will not mark them for speedy deletion by itself. ~ Rob 05:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: In any case, I've done what you said. All of my articles that I have made have the {{Db-g7}} symbol on them. All I can do now is wait... and see if they get deleted. With any luck, they might. But after this, I am never creating another Looney Tunes-based article again. I'll leave that to the professionals. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 06:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

This appears to have been resolved. ~ Rob 07:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Interaction ban request

I'm requesting a formal interaction ban between myself and Annvarie. I've been editing Nicki Minaj discography since March, and almost every edit I make seems like an uphill battle with the force of Annvarie. Within three hours of my inital edit to the page, right back in March, I had somehow found myself in an edit war with them. It's continued this way ever since.

No dispute is too small for Annvarie to get their teeth stuck into. From the capitalisation of letters to the colours in an discography infobox, that were origianlly changed to conform to Template:Infobox album/color. Annvarie can somehow word an argument for practically any change made to the article. Annvarie also shows no sign of compromise when editing. Every single dispute the two of us have had has resulted in either Annvarie barking at me on some platform, me asking an admin for their opinion, or me starting a discussion on the talk page. While you may sit there thinking "What's the issue in taking it to the talk page?", trust me, it gets to the point where you really have to ask yourself what you're doing with your life, opening a wordy talk page discussion motioning to to change a chart name from "US R&B" to "US R&B/HH" hindered by an initial edit war with Annvarie.

I started drafting this request at my sandbox, writing a large chunk of it and saving it under a hidden note to take a nap for a couple of hours. I guess Annvarie saw my draft, through flicking through my contributions or other means, based on their next edit summary, another revert of mine, saved with the most pageant-y edit summary I've seen since creating an account here: "I don't consider editing a competition. I follow guidelines and base my edits on samples provided. That said, I reverted this edit based on WP:Text formatting & the sample table on WP:Discog style." something extremely polarizing from the usual blank summary or occasional summary CAPITALIZING buzz words like GUIDELINES or POLICIES to REALLY GET ACROSS THE MESSAGE that they know what they're TALKING ABOUT. On the intuition Annvarie saw my sandbox and found out about my plans to request an IBAN, I tried one last time to extend the old olive branch, and ask to work through issues, stylistic differences, and any other conflicts we had. This was, as I predicted, met with a nice lengthy paragraph on how Annvarie only makes THESE EDITS because they're following STRICT GUIDELINES that I evidently don't, and I'm a liar for insinuating they revert all my edits. While I never actually accused Annvarie of reverting all my edits, here's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 reversions Annvarie has made to things I've contributed to the article, some with good reason as they unknowingly violated certain policies/guidelines, but a large majority just due to personal disagreement.

Admittedly, I have assumed bad faith in certain instances, which I hold my hands up to, but honestly, can anyone blame me for doing so? I just want to get this out of my hair at last because honestly, I'm so fed up with treading on eggshells on that article. It's now 9am and I've had no sleep after being up with a nasty cold, so some of this may make no sense/sound overly cunty/or even stupid in some parts. I apologize in advance if this is the case. I'm content with a mutually-sided IBAN, I have no reason to revert Annvarie, they're a helpful editor, we just have difference of opinion...a lot, as hopefully they see me in the same way and won't request a one-sided ban. Hope to hear others opinions, christ this is going to drain the shit out of me, Azealia911 _talk 09:02, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment it is clear that Annvarie is a WP:SPA see edit counter even in comparison to Azealia911 also demonstrated in edit counter results but this is mentioned just for context.

Personally I do not think that Ibans can ever work in situations in which editors work on the same content. I also have little knowledge of discography related issues and think that it may be worth pinging editors that have contributed to a relevant article, TP or Wikiproject to comment. However, having read through report related texts I think that issues of WP:OWN probably apply. A number of the edits and reversions seem to be about issues that didn't seem to me to have been of great consequence and I think that problems with the interactions may develop from problems arising from the actual edits. Issues here also relate to WP:AFG and WP:CIVIL.

Perhaps a topic ban on one or both editors would be appropriate. The length of such a ban may better be decided by editors who better know the topic but even a very short ban would get something on record so that if there was recurrence in behaviour then platform would be provided for further steps to be taken. Something needs to be done to better promote collaborative editing here. GregKaye 09:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think an interaction ban would be all bad, at least for a trial run for a couple of weeks or-so, to see how it plays out. After which time, if the article history then starts re-clogging up with constant action-revert-action-revert like it is now, we could re-discuss a longer or permanent interaction ban. The only con of the trial IBAN would be a possible reversion of all edits made during the trial with the excuse of "The IBAN's over, I can edit how I like"

I'd respectfully oppose a topic ban, I don't think that would be fair on Annvarie, who you aforementioned is a SPA, considering a topic ban on Nicki Minaj would leave them with no pages to edit, with them having only edited Mianj-related articles. But by the same token, I don't think it'd be fair on myself either, considering topic bans aim to reduce disruptive edits, which I personally don't think I've made on the article.

I'm pinging Kww, an admin who dabbles with the page. Don't really know who else to alert to be honest. Azealia911 _talk 12:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not inclined to issue either a topic ban or an interaction ban. Yes, I've noticed the two of you, and I think it's remarkable how petty both of you can be. Changing small text from 85% to 90%, and then edit warring over it? I'm more inclined to ban both of you from making purely cosmetic changes to discography articles, so that you stand a chance of learning how to interact over content.—Kww(talk) 13:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Kww The change you reference was nothing cosmetic, not on the main view of the article anyway. {{small|Insert text}} sets at 85%, and was a way of decreasing mess to the array of <span style="font-size:85%;">Insert text<span> I have no idea where you got 90% from. But really, a discography topic ban? That seems grossly unfair to both parties, rendering Annvarie unable to edit their primary edited page, which potentially leads to them just leaving the project all together, and unfair on myself, especially as I'm in the middle of a FLC, and responding to comments could get me reported. Azealia911 _talk 13:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't suggest a discography topic ban: I suggested a ban on making cosmetic changes to discographies. —Kww(talk) 13:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

What would that cover exactly? Could you give a few examples, relating to previous conflicts between myself and Annvarie? Sorry, it seems a tad vague, and could still cause problems at my FLC upon certain suggestions. Would it also just be NM discography? I edit many other discographies without issue from other editors. Azealia911 _talk 13:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm about to go to work for the day. Let me mull it over.—Kww(talk) 14:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing Azealia911 _talk 14:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (Non-administrator comment) I agree there is edit warring going on over some silly things, but in my few interactions with Azealia911 (eg at AfD, I remembered the colorful signature) I've not noticed anything unpleasant in his/her attitude. Annvarie as stated is a clear SPA: all of his/her edits are to Nicki Minaj articles, with 90 percent being to the discography article. Azealia911 has more than 5,000 edits; Annvarie has fewer than 500. That means a significant percentage of Annvarie's edits are actually reverts; I think WP:OWNERSHIP is going on. That Annvarie responded to something Azealia911 was writing on his/her sandbox indicates Annvarie is purposely tracking Azealia911's contributions for some reason. I have a thick skin but I would feel a bit troubled/violated if someone did that to me. That's just my 2 cents. —Мандичка 😜 09:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've placed a notice on Annvarie's talkpage, warning her that if she doesn't make comments here, I will place sanctions without her input. Let's leave this open a bit longer and give her a chance to respond.—Kww(talk) 14:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment First of all, I don't understand how my edit count translates to me making only reverts. I don't spend alot of my time on the internet so I when I do I edit on that discography article since I have a large interest in Nicki Minaj. I obviously don't consider myself an owner of the article, and my contributions to it are mostly chart/sales updates and new music additions. In my opinion, Azealia911 is overreacting since when I do revert their edit it's usually constructive and as they stated above, they took ownership of some of their mistakes. I take ownership for some of my wrong edits as well, but I don't make a big deal about my edits being reverted as long as its with good reason. When we have disagreements, we have third party involvements on the talk page and I stick with the consensus (Isn't this what Misplaced Pages advises it editors). To say I revert all their edits is absurd since I've reverted less than a quarter of their total edits to the page. I relation to responding to their sandbox (as implied above), we have had discussions on my talk page before in which we discussed this same topic. I can't believe I'm being accused of violating another editor when Azealia911 has repeatedly used foul language on MY talk page in simple discussions. To be honest, I don't know how to fix this supposed "issue" since I believe all my reverts (when necessary) are warranted but I have been a very constructive editor on that aricle.Annvarie (talk) 20:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry it took me a while to reply, I don't have this page on watch as it changes every few seconds. The ownership that was pointed out by a couple of editors, which I originally didn't consider at all but looking at some of the disputes has become somewhat frivolous to me, is the issue of you not letting edits "pass" for lack of a better phrase. Things like the chart name change, text size template changer (which after thinking about it, isn't stopped by the guideline you pointed out) could all have gone without you doing anything in return, yet your editing style to the page gives off a patroller-type style. This style is also backed up by your apparent tracking of my contributions and that edit summary, which was what really lead me to open this up. And as for the foul language accusation on your talk page, the only minor-obscene thing I've ever written there is the phrase "horseshit", which I apologise for if you really took it to heart. Other than that, I used the word "fucking" but it wasn't directed at you in any way, not that cussing's considered a WP:Personal attacks anyway. At this point, I have no idea what would be the best cause of action, as long as you stop reverting almost every damn stylistic edit to that page that I make. Azealia911 _talk 22:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Please block Dthomsen8 as a malfunctioning bot

Dthomsen8 (talk · contribs) keeps making pointless changes to hundreds of talk pages such as . They serve no purpose and go against WP:COSMETICBOT and WP:NOTBROKEN (and WP:AWB rules in general). I warned them earlier, but they haven't changed their behaviour (e.g. ) or even replied to those concerns.

Someone please block them per WP:COSMETICBOT, or alternatively revoke their AWB access. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

This isnt a bot so not sure why they would be blocked as a malfunctioning bot. Amortias (T)(C) 18:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The bot policy is clear that editors doing bot-like edits are under the same restrictions as any bot would be. See WP:MEATBOT in particular. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It was more of a it isnt malfunctioning but what it was set out to do wasnt constructive. Amortias (T)(C) 12:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Support; it's disruptive behavior and I've also complained at their userpage. Fgnievinski (talk) 00:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• If there's a problem then xyr AWB access should be revoked. Guy (Help!) 11:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• User hasn't edited in almost 24 hours. Give them a chance to respond. If they start up again without responding, I'll yank the AWB. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• What's the problem with ? It looks like a constructive change IMHO (switching a project template to a correctly more specific template). Maybe not something I'd bother to make myself, clearly not one you'd make, but that's no reason to prevent Dthomsen8 if they wish to do it. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

See WP:COSMETICBOT and WP:NOTBROKEN. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

More obviously, . WP Journals is, I'm surprised to find, a redirect to a WP Academic Journals. As such, then yes, NOTBROKEN would apply. Not that I'd seek a block over it though.

I would also note the we have a vast amount of pointless cosmetic and sub-cosmetic (invisible code-only whitespace stripping) 'bot and script editing and any challenge to chat gets seen as hostile edit-warring. We have far worse things than Dthomsen8 to worry about (or not). Andy Dingley (talk) 21:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

As the editor being discussed, I decided to sleep on the question and meanwhile do no edits at all. I have decided that I will stop using AWB for WikiProject changes, but I will note that many of the updates were adding WikiProject templates for other projects such as subjects and countries of Academic Journals. --DThomsen8 (talk) 23:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your considered response. Have you read the COSMETICBOT policy linked above and are you happy to abide by it? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem is not WikiProject changes in general, the problem is doing purely cosmetic edits that clutter watchlists for no good reason. It's entirely fine to do cosmetic changes like {{WP Journals}} → {{WikiProject Academic Journals}} if you're also doing something else to the page, like adding another WikiProject Banner, or updating an article assessment. I'm also concerned it took an ANI thread to get you to think about those edits when the problem was pointed out to you, and that you don't seem to review your edits before saving them, but I'll let MSGJ and others deal with that if it becomes a more serious problem. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that the cosmetic edits are annoying: they uselessly increase the amount of diffs that the humans maintaining the articles have to examine, and the size of the article's edit history. Sometimes they also try to impose the bot operator's editorial choices on the article (changing one template to another when both are valid) though I don't know if that's happened here. So I'd support the request that these edits stop--thanks. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 20:06, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
• I don't really see these as problematic or even cosmetic edits. Project templates on talk pages are not wiki links in articlespace, the intended object of wp:NOTBROKEN, if anything wp:BRINT is closer, but even that isn't appropriate. These talk pages have little content, and few watchers. The edits are therefore not cluttering many watch lists, nor extending huge page histories. They remove hidden redirections, avoid Easter eggs, improve the utility of what links here and improve the category allocations, so that academic journals are less likely to be conflated with journals in the sense of newsmagazines and the like. Would we prefer that the edits include a token talk page post to meet some wiki-legalistic constraint that serves to impede good work? LeadSongDog come howl! 21:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Dylann Storm Roof

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An admin is needed ASAP on this, requesting move protection. Is there a way to restore the title Dylann Storm Roof? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the cleanup, admins! Could someone also get rid of some of the trollish redirects, if there are any left? Thanks! JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Dylann Storm Roof was the original article title, the talk-page is also messed up still and yes thanks admins. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the offending account, deleted all the problematic redirects, and rev deleted the move vandalism to hid the possible BLP issues. Also move protected the article. Anything else? --Jayron32 00:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Well WP:RS is calling the subject "Dylann Storm Roof" but Dylann Roof works too if people want it that way. Thanks again for the admin help all around. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: also helped with the cleanup. --Jayron32 00:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes thanks to him as well =) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I tried to, anyway. Jayron32 was too speedy. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Was Dylann Roof move protected? I tried adding the template but found I could still move the page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:26, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It has been now. I think all the different ways it was being moved made it hard to tell what was protected and what was not. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I guessed, thanks again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Clap along if you feel like a Storm without a Roof. Or is it the other way round? Guy (Help!) 11:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Request block review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I jsut extended the bloock of User:J0eg0d. I did so primarily becauase of this edit, which includes an unsupported accusation of socking. As that is what the current block is for, this seemed worth noting. Moreover, the edit includes a particualrly gross personal attack ("kapo" with a link to make the attack crystal clear to anyone who might miss it). In response to notification that this edit was improper here, and some further back-and-forth, User:J0eg0d made what seems to have been a final response here. As the previous blocking admin, I felt this was far out of line. I notifed the user of the block at and in the subsequent edit. As this has considerable drama potential, I ask for one or more uninvolved admins, or the community at large, to review my block. DES 12:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The anti-semitic remark alone has earned him an indef block, I think. It's fairly clear that J0eg0d is WP:NOTHERE. He's simply going to escalate his behavior until he gets inevitably banned anyway, then go play martyr to his cheering fans on various Reddit forums dedicated to gaming Misplaced Pages articles. Gamaliel (talk) 12:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi. This is an admin board, so I'm not sure whether or not I should respond, I come here to read the different disputes as a way to learn how (and how not to) behave/respond to certain circumstances. Again, not sure that I have a voice here, but DES did request the community's response, so I took a look. And having taken that look, I think it's clear that this individual has deep-rooted issues in dealing with the constraints that are put on editors in an effort to make this project more legitimate. We are similar in that we joined Misplaced Pages years ago (him in 2005, me in 2009), but did not become active until relatively recently (him this year, me at the end of 2013). However, his recent activity looks to be growing more antagonistic in a geometric fashion. I'm actually surprised at the restraint of only extending the block a single week. But hopefully when he comes back he'll have calmed down. Onel5969 13:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:Onel5969. Just posting to clarify that although this is an admin board, all users are welcome to post relevant comments. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

J0eg0d isn't here to build an encyclopedia and never has been. He's an antagonistic user whose actions here have been odious, all amplified by his continual off-wiki activities. I for one do not think that the project will be affected one whit - positively or negatively - by his absence.--Jorm (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

And yes, exactly what Gamaliel said above: he's moved into the martyr phase. Any action taken here will be seen as a "victory" for him.--Jorm (talk) 14:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Keep however many days the personal attack contributes to the block extension, but decrease it by however many days the socking accusation contributes. The accusation of socking was not made “without any evidence”: The accusation mentions that the IP address matches the area of where the Misplaced Pages user has admitted to reside. For better or worse, people have clearly been banned under WP:DUCK for even less, so this shouldn't be sanctioned as a spurious accusation when it empirically exceeds evidence thresholds for taking action against socks. So dock from the ban extension however many days the accusation contributes. I hope all character attacks no matter how subtle are equally sanctioned going forward. 108.52.24.214 (talk) 18:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Start with the block DESiegal gave first. If that doesn't work, then an indef. 174.30.95.89 (talk) 22:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've removed his talk page access for continuing the personal attacks after the block. To be honest, an indef block might be justified at this point, but I've held off on that for now since an AE is open. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• DESiegel I've actually upped the block to indef. They may appeal to UTRS or BASC. DESiegel if you disagree with my change to your block parameters please feel free to undo without consulting me, but please do leave a comment here explaining why. Thanks... Zad68 19:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

General comments

I'd like to take a moment here, if I may, to ponder the human cost of these episodes and to ask whether it can be reduced. On the one hand, we have the troubles inflicted on this editor's targets, of whom I am not the least, and I can't say I've enjoyed the vituperation, the mud-slinging, the creepy stuff on-Wiki about my company’s offices, the IP-vandals travelling in the wake, the anti-Semitism. And of course there's the endless trouble it takes to construct, argue, and then to decide cases against editors of this ilk -- time that could better be spent on better things.

But I'd particularly urge reflection on the damage to the editors themselves. We’ve seen this repeatedly at Gamergate: newly-recruited editors plunge headlong into the fray and then, over a span of days or weeks, deteriorate until the decision to block or ban them is inescapable. The trajectory is familiar, but it consumes dozens, even hundreds of hours, of hard and unrewarding work and can leave scars across the encyclopedia.

It also, clearly, takes a heavy toll on the Gamergate editor. Read this editor's posts over the last week or two, looking not for violations but simply thinking about their state of mind. Wouldn’t things have been better for all -- including the editor himself -- if all this could have been stopped sooner? Could brakes have been applied to prevent or cushion the denouement? AE and AN/I are currently inclined to look for smoking guns, and so we await the ultimate explosion. I don’t know the solution, but I do wish we could both avoid the disruption and also avoid the pain and broken crockery. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I would echo Dr. Bernstien's sentiments: once and for all we must solve this gamergate problem. They're a blight on wikipedia and a threat to our culture of collaboration. 166.173.251.170 (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that the "problem" lies entirely with a massive attack of cultish IPs whose ministry consists of breaching experiment after breaching experiment to try and whittle down any opposing culture clubs from their hateful Eden. I would argue that their constantly crossing the river is because they believe we would lose any war of attrition with them. They fancy themselves masters of puppets. I wonder how Reddit would react when we pointed their higher-ups to the Arbitration case and every event since then? After all, they have no love lost for Reddit's master. —Jeremy v^_^v 17:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Systems are already in place to deal with the situation. Insisting more be done 'for the sake of the editor' sounds as disingenuous as I'm sure it was implied. Thorrand (talk) 06:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

No, actually Thorrand, it's not disingenuous. Misplaced Pages is asking more of people than reasonable people should be asked to, or can, bear. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't asking anything. Sometimes when someone gets too invested in a topic, the best thing for them to do is back away. Saying Misplaced Pages is in any way responsible for the editors personal editing habits seems like an attempt to absolve individuals of personal responsibility. Respect WP:OWN and it will help to avoid WP:REICHSTAG. It's certainly not only gamergate editors who fall victim to that. Thorrand (talk) 21:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:Circlejerk Arkon (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

@Arkon:You forgot to cite your source. Xenomancer (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest this conversation be closed / hatted. The proceeding in AN/I it relates to has ended so this is WP:FORUM and an unproductive opportunity for incivility. I do not direct that at any particular viewpoint - but all of them. Does anyone object if I hat it? Vordrak (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

You should let someone who isn't involved do that. So I object, I guess.--Jorm (talk) 21:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

IP inserting original research beyond level 4 warnings

IP insists upon inserting original research despite level 4 warnings and being told it is his burden of proof. See User talk:172.56.35.90. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I've protected the page for a few hours, please take it to the article's talk page. Nakon 20:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The IP has returned

The IP has returned deleting verifiable information written by several full professors, e.g. Vern Bullough and by Dr. James Dobson, a notable evangelist. He has done this past level 4 warnings. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

See User talk:172.56.35.205. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Legal Threat?

Is THIS a legal threat? He says that people will be "charged". Also this page greatly needs pending changes protection.VictoriaGrayson 03:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• It is certainly a "threat", but it is not clear that the author means that editors who defy his preference will be "reported/charged" in an external legal setting. bd2412 T 03:33, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I doubt that it is intended as a legal threat - but given that the edit asserts in Misplaced Pages's voice that a deity exists, I'd already reverted it before seeing this thread. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

The article is already semi'd. Pending changes won't stop this particular person, who is autoconfirmed. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't think it is a "legal" threat. But it is certainly improper. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

It's clearly not a legal threat.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok.VictoriaGrayson 03:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I read this more as a threat to report editors who violate Vikramadityachandel's POV to someone here in Misplaced Pages. This editor has a history of parochial edits like this . Acroterion (talk) 03:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

So he regularly puts threats in his edits? Thats kind of funny.VictoriaGrayson 03:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• Looking back at it though it does look alot like there's an ownership issue here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd call it WP:NOTHERE. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes that would seem to be the case.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• Meh. This is probably prompted by te international yoga day thing. Some of the user's edits are strongly Hindu nationalist in tone, but some are inoffensive. Guy (Help!) 10:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Challenges with User:TheRedPenOfDoom

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but when but it seems that User:TheRedPenOfDoom is stirring up a lot of commotion. I was surprised to see a userpage that has been blocked from recreating, and I cannot seem to find any logs explaining why. Anyway if this is me going to far too fast, please accept my apologies. BFG (talk) 15:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• Also I have not notified him, please do if you think this is an appropriate complaint. BFG (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
  • What are you complaining about? What userpage? Who blocked? What policy violation did TRPoD commit that requires that an admin jump in and quickly take action? You have less than 300 edits, yet you managed to find ANI quick enough, so what is the deal? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
    • He seems to have been involved in a lot of edit wars, and causing a lot of backlash, I was more interested in feedback than to create an actual case BFG (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
      • TRPoD's userpage is protected from re-creation "per user request." I fail to see what is wrong with that. My feedback to you is to either present an actionable case or withdraw, since you appear to be here in response to a single edit by TRPoD at Hydra effect and have made no effort at interaction. Acroterion (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
  • If a user doesn't want to have a userpage, why should they be forced to have one? And if they really don't want one, why allow vandals the opportunity to create one with intent to harass an editor? Ravensfire (talk) 16:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This could just be simple retaliation from a new editor over TheRedPenOfDoom removing content from Hydra effect (which was created by the OP) and adding tags noting that the references could be improved and questioning the notability of the article. Ravensfire (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• • • • There is no wanting retaliation. Before I noticed that the user was involved in other edit wars and similar tagging, I never thought this was anything more. I simply wanted advice on how to proceed. If you think this is irrelevant, then surely it is. Let's just close down the issue. ̃BFG (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
        • Just to underline that I have no agenda. I've reviewed some more of his edits, it might be that he just engages in controversial subjects, and is a really active editor. The issues that prompted me to ask here was Dog meat and Diamond Games, and of course the previously mentioned very strange deletion log which User:Manul put forward a perfectly good explanation for below. There is also Parapsychology and Gamergate controversy in recent days, but these are fundamentally controversial subjects. I have no strong feelings about upholding any complaint. BFG (talk) 16:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I've also changed your redirects from your user/talk space. You can't redirect your current account to an unused account. If you are both users and lost the password, or whatever, you need to declare this, otherwise, if you use both accounts without some declaration, you are violating WP:SOCK, which I'm guessing isn't your intent. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I saw that, and that's an issue I would very much like to address. I leave that issue for my talk page. If you could help me resolve it, I'd be much obliged. BFG (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Fwiw, there is a declaration in the edit summary on the first revision of the user page. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
      • This issue has now been adressed. Hopefully to everyones satisfaction. BFG (talk) 16:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Just a note that I've notified TheRedPenOfDoom about this discussion. — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• On the issue of the missing User:TheRedPenOfDoom page: evidently it is create-protected because people kept creating it. If the page existed then the name TheRedPenOfDoom would be colored blue in history pages, causing the Internet to be thrown into turmoil. Manul ~ talk 16:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

More eyes on Peter Schiff

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apparently Schiff has posted a YouTube video requesting corrections to balance out the liberal bias of Misplaced Pages on his article. There have been a fair number of edits from IP and new accounts pushing a very pro-Schiff viewpoint on things. The article does have Pending Changes enabled, but I'm at or darn close to 3 reverts unaccepting various changes. Would a couple of other folks mind reviewing what's pending and helping out? Alternative, it may make sense, given Schiff's call for edits, to semi the article for a day or two to force talk page discussions on requested changes. Ravensfire (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi protected three days. Deletions, unsourced assertions, additions of websites like about.com as sources... --NeilN 19:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Appreciate it. I've adding a talk page discussion for one of the targetted areas, inviting some discussion and pointing out the need for good sources. Ravensfire (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

multi-year vandalism from IP address

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• 89.167.234.235 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After reverting the most recent edit from the above IP, I looked at a few earlier contributions and see other vandalism from the same address going back to 2010. I didn't look at enough to see if there are also good edits, or to form an opinion of whether the edits are all from the same person. I also didn't check whether any of the old vandalism is still around needing reversion. I may look into it later but have other things going on right now. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Definitely a long-term pattern of... uh, "unhelpful" edits (peppered with what looks like the occasional good-faith edit). But, ironically, I'm not sure if they are persistent enough to merit a block. They edit (much less) than once a month, on average. I think an actual "final" (personalized, gentle?) warning message from a bona fide Admin that any more of this nonsense will lead to a block might hopefully lead this IP down a different, more constructive path... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
• I've blocked for 3 months. 3 months would ordinarily be too long for the first block of an IP, but given the long term pattern, and particularly the more recent clear BLP Violations, I think it is necessary. Hopefully it will be long enough that they try to edit while still blocked, and maybe get the message. Unfortunately, our normal counter vandalism practices can let vandals this intermittent slip through the cracks. Monty₈₄₅ 20:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks on userpage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lucd13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) just recently created a user page that generally personally attacks users on Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages itself (or possibly me). This was created after they made an edit where they added a source for the number of episodes at CSI: Cyber (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). The video was unfortunately inaccessible for me, therefore the source was temporarily wrong until another user was available to confirm the said content. It was an Australian website, so it must only be available for Australian residents. Based on that, I reverted them . They reverted my edit saying that the video is in fact accessible and the said content is truthful. I cannot confirm it since I can't access the video. Then they said that I "should be careful in the future before deleting people's honest contributions." (??). I eventually reverted them , stating that the video is unavailable for me. Thus, I can't confirm what they're adding is truthful or not. Then the userpage full of personal attacks was created shortly after. The user page generally attacks other users, but it was created after the little spat mentioned above so I may be the lead on the attacks. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 19:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

No admin action called for. The angry userpage is hardly polite, but there's nothing personal about it. "Generally personally attacks", as you say, is a contradiction — if it's general it's not personal. Nobody in particular is mentioned by name nor hinted at. Even if you feel sure that it was the spat with you that caused the remarks, and that you are in some sense "meant", your feeling about the motivation in the individual's head is not something we can sanction or even reproach them for. I for my part am not prepared to ask them to remove the sentiments, either. People traditionally have wide latitude on their userpages, including the freedom to criticize Misplaced Pages. Bishonen | talk 20:16, 25 June 2015 (UTC).

I'm a big believer in WP:NOTCENSORED, however, WP:POLEMIC mandates this needs to dissapear. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 20:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I always forget about that page. Thanks. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 20:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

It can be a useful page, Callmemirela, but it's not relevant here. WP:POLEMIC is about a) "Polemical statements unrelated to Misplaced Pages", which this isn't — it's related to Misplaced Pages — and b) "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors", which this also isn't — no specific editors are alluded to, individually or as a group. The user is letting off steam, and I'm not sure I even blame them. Bishonen | talk 20:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC).

Letting off steam is a lot different in my world. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 20:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Mirela, our verifiability policy contains a section (WP:SOURCEACCESS) stating that sources are not required to be accessible to all users. If the user asserted that they saw the video and it verified the information they inserted, you should leave it at that, unless you have a verifiable reason yourself to dispute the claim (in which case you need your own sources). The SOURCEACCESS section has some other suggestions for how you can verify a source that you can't access. None of this is an excuse to run amok and throw tantrums, but Lucd13's response was pretty tame compared to some I've seen, and I would agree did not violate WP:POLEMIC (though probably did violate WP:NOTFORUM). It's been blanked now anyway. Ivanvector (talk) 20:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Callmemirela, it's rather dubious to close a section you opened yourself, ensuring that you get the last word. I'll let your close stand (moving Ivanvector's pertinent comment into it), as it was a storm in a teacup anyway, but please think of this for the future. Bishonen | talk 21:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC).

I am not trying to get the last word. I am sorry I am giving that impression. You, an admin, said no action was required and so on. All I wanted to know, based on the situation, if anything could had been done. You said no and I closed it. I got an answer and that was it. I don't know how this is getting labeled as I want to have the last word? Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

User:TheAlexCortez48

TAC attempted to suppress the discussion of Template:WWE Programming at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 June 22 and de-tagged the article. Bazj (talk) 22:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• I took care of it on his talk page. If he does it again, a short block would likely be in order as it was made perfectly clear that his activities are unacceptable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Reporting an admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have, incidentally, blocked the IP for 31 hours. (If someone knows the tricks of IPv6 rangeblocks, feel free to place a slightly broader block if necessary.) It should be obvious that the original poster is WP:NOTHERE. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:41, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

2001:590:3c03:100::/56 should cover a range that includes the two IPs listed above, but with only two addresses to work from it could be either overkill or not enough, so I think we're best playing wait-and-see at this point. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 02:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

FYI the ISP's range, according to ARIN, is 2001:590::/32. Typically individual IPs are handed out to end-users as /64, allowing 64 bits of subnetting within the home (128 bits total). I have no specific knowledge of this ISP, however. --Unready (talk) 05:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify above, if you're used to playing whack-a-mole in IPv4 with a.b.c.d/32, that corresponds directly to whack-a-mole in IPv6 to w:x:y:z::/64. HTH --Unready (talk) 06:15, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Should this edit be deleted because it contains an address?