This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ms Sarah Welch (talk | contribs) at 08:10, 9 August 2015 (→Current version of the Islamic rule period: r). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 08:10, 9 August 2015 by Ms Sarah Welch (talk | contribs) (→Current version of the Islamic rule period: r)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:Duquesne University/UCOR 143 Global and Cultural Perspectives (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hinduism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31Auto-archiving period: 5 days  |
 | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
 | This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
 | Hinduism is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 24, 2004. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject Africa|class=B|Mauritius=yes|Mauritius-importance=top}} Please add the quality rating to the{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hinduism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31Auto-archiving period: 5 days |
Addition to Further Reading
Hello! I have a suggested addition for 'Further Reading: Scholarly'
Flueckiger, Joyce Burkhalter (2015), Everyday Hinduism, Wiley-Blackwell, ISBN 978-1-4051-6021-6
Alaani (talk) 18:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Islam and sects of Hinduism (c. 1200-1700 CE)
This section does not look neutral - it does not even mention the revival of Hinduism in India under two powerful states - Vijayanagar and Maratha I am editing this section with absolute credible references
Amit20081980 (talk) 18:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
References
- http://www.britannica.com/place/Vijayanagar
- http://www.britannica.com/place/India/Political-and-economic-decentralization-during-the-Mughal-decline#toc46985
- Good addition, I think. Interestingly, it seems that it was also the Vijayanagar Empire where Shankara was elevated to the status he still has today. This contrasts with the statement in the article "Followers of the Bhakti movement moved away from the abstract concept of Brahman, which Adi Shankara consolidated a few centuries before." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the first paragraph seems to have come from some Hindutva pamphlet. What "sects of Hinduism"? I don't see any. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 22:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Bhakti sects of Hinduism, makes more sense in the title. Bhakti movement gathered steam after 12th century, peaked between 15th-18th centuries in east/west/central/north regions of the subcontinent. See Karen Pechelis and Schomer & McLeod sources in the article. Also see: Christian Lee Novetzke (2013), Religion and Public Memory, Columbia University Press, ISBN 978-0231512565, pages 138-140. It includes a discussion of Islamic rule period and Bhakti movement in their Deccan region, on those pages. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Sarah, I know. But I was pointing out that there is no mention of any of it in the section. In fact, the section is leaving religion behind and going off into politics. I am not sure how this happened. On the matter of "sects", as opposed to "movements", I expect there would be diversity in the scholarly sources. Calling them "sects" as if it were a fact seems to constitute POV. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 08:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Totally agree with Amit20081980. This section is written in an utter rubbish way.Ghatus (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Sarah, I know. But I was pointing out that there is no mention of any of it in the section. In fact, the section is leaving religion behind and going off into politics. I am not sure how this happened. On the matter of "sects", as opposed to "movements", I expect there would be diversity in the scholarly sources. Calling them "sects" as if it were a fact seems to constitute POV. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 08:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: Indeed. Bhakti movement needs to be mentioned in this article. Religion-related historical violence and its impact on the religion, its followers is relevant and due, for balance and completeness. Similar discussions are in Christianity and Islam articles. Let us focus on reliable sources, instead of puzzling perspectives of their anti-Hindu, pro-Hindu, anti-Islam, pro-Islam organizations. The section looks well sourced. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ghatus: I reverted you because your edits have issues and they weakened the article. You, for example, generalized Richard Eaton's book on Islam-Hindu interaction in Bengal region of India (The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier) to all of India, and your summary wasn't accurate either (FWIW, Maratha/Vijayanagara should be trimmed; this overview article is too big). Lets discuss per BRD, and reach consensus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- What do you know about Sufism in India? Bengal and Punjab was the center of Suhrawardiyya.Ghatus (talk) 16:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Islam and Hinduism-1200-1750
1)Which renowned Historian wrote that Hindus became Muslim by just dint of Sword? It's a total rubbish statement. Even a person having some knowledge of mediaval History knows that there were several reasons for conversions. Read books of B. Chandra, Thapar, RS sharma, Eaton, D. Jha. Some of the reasons are:
- Initially by violence, threat or other pressure against the person.
- As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time.
- That conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite.
- Some of Muslims were descendants of migrants from the Iranians or Arabs.
- Majority Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints.
2)Islam was dominant in North India, but not in the South.
3)Bhakti started in the the South actually, but flourished in the north.
4)Vijaynagar and Maratha power show the revival of Hinduism.
These are historical facts. Theologians should keep a distance from History. Ghatus (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: & @Joshua Jonathan: Do look into the matter. Ms Sarah Welch is unfit for history writing. I do not have enough time at hand now, but this myth of "Hindu trauma at the hand of Muslim tyranny" was first spread by the British and it later became a main driving point of Hindu Nationalist movement.Ghatus (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: Avoid forum-y behavior, see WP:TALKNO. Try providing specific RS with page numbers, with sentences/proposal to improve the section. I am puzzled by your third revert on this article today, despite BRD reminder, and after I have already provided specific issues with your edits above. If you want another issue, you changed the Jizya repeal language, which was already in article before your edit. You changed it to, without source:
- "The Delhi Sultanate of North India imposed Jizya tax on Hindus, later it was repealed by Akbar when the Mughal rule was formally established in India."
- This made it misleadingly inaccurate and worse, because Akbar did not establish Mughal rule, and Jizya was brought back by Aurangzeb. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
1)Babur's Mughal rule on some parts of India was wiped out within some years. Akbar FORMALLY ESTABLISHED mughal rule in India in 1556. yes, Jizya was re-introduced by his great grand son Aurangzebe, but the Marathas are now already in the scene and it was the end of the empire. I was just presenting both sides.Ghatus (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Dear both, this is an article on religion. I suggest we steer clear of politics. What interests us in this article is what impact Islam/Muslim rule made on Hinduism. Nothing has been said about that in the article. Jizya and slavery etc. don't belong here. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 16:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Jizya were religion-related taxes. It belongs here, much like it belongs in the relevant Judaism section, as it already does. Same is true for slavery and other issues, if and where religion was an issue. This is well sourced, relevant and belongs. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Who wrote such lines like- "Typically enslaved Hindus converted to Islam to gain their freedom","Starting with 13th century, for a period of some 500 years, very few texts, from the numerous written by Muslim court historians, mention any "voluntary conversions of Hindus to Islam", suggesting its insignificance and perhaps rarity of such conversions".
I CHALLENGE TO PRESENT ANY SERIOUS HISTORIAN WRITING SUCH LINES ON INDIAN HISTORY. THESE ARE TOTAL RUBBISH WRITTEN BY SOME THIRD RATE PAMPHLETEERS. ALL BOGUS. Are these lines written by-B. Chandra? Thapar? RS sharma? Eaton? D. Jha? Ghatus (talk) 16:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Who is P Hardy? Who is Hari Sharma? What are their worth and accomplishment? Their opinion do not even count. Ghatus (talk) 16:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, I am not going to leave this matter. Wrong quote and selective cherry picking would be dealt with in the next few days till I get the desired result. I need some time. Ghatus (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Mass Conversion to Islam: Theories and Protagonists- Eaton
HERE EATON TALKING ABOUT ENTIRE INDIA.Ghatus (talk) 17:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please post more.VictoriaGrayson 17:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Entire book is given. He elaborately talks about all the theories of conversions. Ghatus (talk) 03:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
MISQUOTING OF SOURCE
THE ARTICLS CLAIMS THAT EATON WROTE - ""In 1562 Akbar abolished the practice of enslaving the families of war captives; his son Jahangir banned sending of slaves from Bengal as tribute in lieu of cash, which had been the custom since the 14th century. These measures notwithstanding, the Mughals actively participated in slave trade with Central Asia, deporting Hindu rebels and subjects who had defaulted on revenue payments, following precedents inherited from Delhi Sultanate"(P.11)
EATON DID NOT WRITE IT. HE DID NOT EVEN MENTION HINDU-MUSLIM ISSUE. I AM GIVING THE LINK OF P.11
LIES AND HYPOCRISIES ARE BEING SPREAD IN THE NAME OF OTHERS. SHAMELESS. Ghatus (talk) 17:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, it appears that this slavery issue doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this article. I am removing it. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: You have slightly misquoted what is actually quoted in the article. I see it on page 11. It is in a chapter written by Richard M Eaton (see top of pages 10 and 12). The context is Hindu and Muslim, see page 10 and elsewhere, with footnotes. I don't think there is a need to quote more or the entire chapter by Eaton. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:17, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- WHAT MISQUOTE? You have given page number and the quote in the article. Both are false. There were Hindu slaves and there were Muslim slaves. You made it a communal matter. Where is the line you have given in the source??? I am a student of History and I know it very well how to quote and how to misquote.BTW, SEE above. Eaton has explained my position very well.Ghatus (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: The article's embedded quote is , not Hindu. If you acknowledge there were Hindu slaves and Muslim slaves, just remember @Kautilya3's advice: the relevant part here is "anything to do with the subject of this article", that is Hindus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- What a logic! The source says that Sultan X killed Hindus and Muslims. And, you are writing that "The source says that Sultan X killed Hindus" totally omitting "Muslim" under a lame excuse of the article being on Hinduism fully knowing that it is both distortion and communalization of the source, hence,it is falsification. You have no idea on History. It seems that I wasted my time.Ghatus (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: The article's embedded quote is , not Hindu. If you acknowledge there were Hindu slaves and Muslim slaves, just remember @Kautilya3's advice: the relevant part here is "anything to do with the subject of this article", that is Hindus. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sarah, slavery was an integral part of the way the Afghan/Turkic societies worked. The Sultans themselves were slaves originally, and they are called "slave kings" for that reason. Their invading armies were mostly made up of slaves. It is wrong to suggest that Hindus were being singled out for slavery. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: You are probably mentioning Mamluk dynasty. That doesn't belong in this article. Non-Muslim war captives and tax defaulters were the source of slaves during Islamic rule, according to Eaton, Wink and many others. But, if you find any reliable source that states Hindus were never enslaved during the Islamic rule period, we should add a summary from that source with a page number in this section as well, for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- We have to be careful not to suggest that certain things were a special case if they were in fact the norm. While this article has to focus on Hinduism, it doesn't not have to do so slavishly (sorry!). In other words, it would probably be wrong to say that "X enslaved Hindus" if in fact "X enslaved Hindus and also Muslims". The first creates the erroneous impression to the reader that only one community suffered under X. Mentioning Muslims in this situation, and with not much greater verbiage, is a reasonable aside from the main focus of the article: it aids the reader in obtaining a full understanding of the situation in its context, and that is surely our goal. Alternatively, if the slavery issue as a whole is pretty much beyond the scope of the article then we say nothing at all. - Sitush (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
@Sitush: Indeed. In this case we have a lack of an RS that says, "X enslaved Hindus and Muslims", and an abundance of sources saying followers of Hinduism were enslaved during the Islamic period. Note: "enslaving Muslims is not same as Muslim slaves", because the process used to be: Hindu or Buddhist etc war captive / tax defaulter -> Hindu/Buddhist slave under a Muslim slave-owner -> slave converts to Islam becoming Muslim slave -> Muslim slave's manumission if the slave-owner so wishes (if I recall, there was an exception: if Hindu/non-Muslim slave girl became pregnant with her Muslim master's child, she became free upon her master's death, her child was deemed Muslim while she could remain non-Muslim). But this discussion doesn't belong in this article, IMHO. I encourage @Kautilya3 to add summary from any RS that says "followers of Hinduism and Islam were both enslaved" or "followers of Hinduism were never enslaved" during the Islamic rule period, along with page number and the RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. That is not exactly what I said. I said "slavery was integral part of Afghan/Turkic society." The Turks themselves were originally enslaved by the Persians and Arabs. I am sure you know this. (See for example, Avari, pp. 38-41, especially p. 41). It was the conquered people that were enslaved, probably without much concern for their religion. - Kautilya3 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
Historians vs Pamphleteers
Can two cent Pamphleteers like P Hardy, Hari sharma etc be taken seriously when Giant historians like RS Sharma, Eaton, Thapar etc have given a totally counter point of view? - Ghatus (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I tagged Will Durant as unreliable source as per WP:HISTRS. A cursory look at the book indicates that it is indeed a "story" of civilization, not a history. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Go past the folksy title of his series. Will Durant was a historian, significant enough to have articles in tertiary peer reviewed literature such as encyclopedias. The series cited in this article is notable, having sold millions of copies and in many languages. Reviews of his work, including the one cited in this article, were consistently positive. Scholarly criticism was missing or mild, the latter of the style that he did not go far and deep and aggressive enough, that Durants were "never uncomfortably realistic, never daring, never surprising. Theirs is the enlightenment that still enlightens, basically kindly, hopeful, progressive, reasonable, democratic," according to a NYTimes commentary. Will Durant's book meets the WP:HISTRS requirements. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Questionable claims
Sultanate-sponsored religious violence
Durant is already a questionable source. Gaborieau is also not a HISTRS, but the mention is of violence "during the Sultanate" (not sponsored by Sultanate) in just a single sentence with no details. I doubt if the Sultanate sponsored any religious violence (whatever that means). - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Gaborieau is a peer reviewed scholarly source, widely cited, thus meets WP:HISTRS. Will check and embed relevant quotes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Wide-spread practice of raids
(along with siezure and enslavement). I don't find references to such in the citations. Can you give a page number or a quotation? - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Will check, and revise/quote appropriately. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Forcible conversion
Jamal Malik is actually saying there is no evidence of forcible conversion. Hardy's paper is a survey of old literature, and doesn't present any conclusions from the conflicting claims. So this claim is not verified. - Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- You missed the para. I will embed the quote from Jamal Malik. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Has one lost reason?
The article claims: "Forced conversions occurred on an even larger scale at the end of the eighteenth century in the context of increased communal conflicts as well as during the Mappila Rebellion (1921/1922)"
Which incident? 18th century or 20th century? Under the nose of Hindu Zamindars and British rule?
Again says: "Starting with 13th century, for a period of some 500 years, very few texts, from the numerous written by Muslim court historians, mention any "voluntary conversions of Hindus to Islam", suggesting its insignificance and perhaps rarity of such conversions"
On the contrary there are only handful mentions of forced conversions. It's a lie being written.
Further says," There were occasional exceptions to religious violence against Hinduism"
Bogus. Show me the source. Historians like Eaton, RS Sharma(MI- I & II), B. Chandra, Thapar say the opposite. Show me the data or the Royal Charter or the official policy. If someone dies while fighting, you are calling it "religious violence". Ghatus (talk) 04:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. There is very little evidence of forced conversion (Avari, p. 72). From my memory, there were only a few instances of "forcing" conversion, but mostly for political reasons. They are overblown by some writers. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Hindu temple destruction and desecration
In these two booklets, everything on this matter - list, locations, background and history - is talked about in detail.
I have given link to both Part-II & Part-I in PDF format.
1. http://ftp.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_eaton_temples2.pdf (Part=II)
2. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_eaton_temples1.pdf (Part-I)Ghatus (talk) 05:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. See Avari, p. 72. He says that, according to Eaton, only about 80 temples were destroyed through the entire Islamic period, mostly for political reasons. The Sultanate also gave several grants for the construction of temples. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Where are Rajputs?
You are writing history of medieval Hinduism and no mention of Rajputs??? Are we idiots???Ghatus (talk) 05:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
"Hindu" slave/war captives and Timur
Historian Irfan Habib writes in "Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India" that in the 14th century, the word "Hindu" (people of "Al-Hind", "Hind" being "India") included "both Hindus and Muslims" in religious connotations.
When Timur entered Delhi after defeating Mahmud Toghloq’s forces, he granted an amnesty in return for protection money (mâl-e amâni). But on the fourth day he ordered that all the people of the city be enslaved; and so they were. Thus reports Yahya, who here inserts a pious prayer in Arabic for the victims’ consolation ("To God we return, and everything happens by His will"). Yazdi, on the other hand, does not have any sympathy to waste on these wretches. He records that Timur had granted protection to the people of Delhi on the 18th of December 1398, and the collectors had begun collecting the protection money. But large groups of Timur’s soldiers began to enter the city and, like birds of prey, attacked its citizens. The "pagan Hindus" (Henduân-e gabr) having had the temerity to begin immolating their women and themselves, the three cities of Delhi were put to sack by Timur’s soldiers. "Faithless Hindus", he adds, had gathered in the Congregation Mosque of Old Delhi and Timur’s officers put them ruthlessly to slaughter there on the 29th of December. Clearly, Yazdi’s "Hindus" included Muslims as well.
- http://asiecentrale.revues.org/500
- Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India, Irfan Habib,p. 295-312
Selective cherry picking by Ms Sarah Welch to save face
Sarah has now come down to quote diaries of a traveller of an incident of burning of books in Varanasi. On the contrary, I can give hundred of examples of Sanskrit books being translated to Persian with ROYAL PATRONAGE. The MUGHAL PAINTINGS are full Hindu mythology. Many of the most famous temples of North India of today were established with ROYAL MUGHAL PATRONAGE. This is not history writing, but fraud. - Ghatus (talk) 05:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ghatus: I am puzzled by your comments and personal attacks.
- Are you trying to dispute André Wink's reliability as source? On your talk page, where @Kautilya3 and you recently discussed your giving your high school, college or some exams, it appears at least @Kautilya3 is okay with André Wink. But even if you two disagree, the fact remains André Wink is a professor of history and his work is widely cited. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I am a post Graduate student of History. Hence, I am interested in history sections and know better. You are cherry picking quotes. It is not my matter of liking or disliking someone. If you stick to one source, I have multiple sources that oppose your source. That's all. You may believe in Wink. But, truly speaking , he is a pygmy on Indian History before RS Sharma, Eaton, Thapar, B. Chandra, D.N. Jha, Irfan Habib. They dedicated their entire life researching on Indian History.Please qoute a single line from these eminent historians saying such communal nonsense you are cherry picking.Ghatus (talk) 06:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Andre Wink is certainly a superior scholar, having written 3 volumes of Al-Hind. We can definitely use him. But, when other scholars disagree, we are required to cover all view points as per WP:NPOV. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
One-sided editing
Although I do think that it would be wise for Ghatus to calm down, and try another tone in his posts here, it seems to me that he does have a point. The section on the Islamic period contained a very "selective" portrayal of the Islamic rule, and a selective reading of sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if @Ghatus / @Kautilya3 identify specific HISTRS-compliant sources and page numbers that can help make the section not "very selective portrayal of the Islamic rule". Such an effort would be most welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yup, JJ has correctly identified the problem. @Ghatus: please do calm down. The problem has been recognized! I suggest that we use Burjor Avari's book as the main source. He is an accomplished history teacher who knows all the sources, and an extremely level-headed writer that doesn't have an axe to grind. We don't need anything more complicated than that for this article. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- I am now relaxed. I do not know why I get excited too much sometimes. LoL, I need to go to anger management centres. :-) BTW, have you read the link of Eaton I have given? I have not come across more clear headed guy than him writing on the spread of Islam in India before, He is logical and factual.Ghatus (talk) 10:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Wiil Durant & The Story of Civilisation
I've also my doubts and reservations with this source, and this quote:
- ""The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within. The Hindus had allowed their strength to be wasted in internal division and war; they had adopted religions like Buddhism and Jainism, which unnerved them for the tasks of life; they had failed to organize their forces for the protection of their frontiers and their capitals."
Let's see:
- "the bloodiest story in history" - this was written before Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? Read any book on the German conquest of Russia, and the Holocauast...
- "civilization barbarians invading from without" - so, Muslims are barbarians who lack civilisation?
- "religions like Buddhism and Jainism, which unnerved them for the tasks of life" - thanks for this fine qualification - apart from the fact that Jainism is older than Hinduism.
May I suggest to remove this quote? It reminds me of "Tintin in Africa," and like-minded publications from another age in western history. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:26, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ: Durant writes "probably". The pages that follow, in his book, give examples with sources (tragic it is). Durant is not the only source, there are other recent WP:HISTRS which say the same, but without the barbarian or Buddhism/Jainism bits. If you want to replace Durant with a more recent reliable source, I am fine. My preference is to not suppress or hide such information, but include the opposite side from reliable sources which hopefully say "it wasn't bloody and Hinduism thrived under the Islamic rule period", or something like that. I favor presenting all sides, rather than hiding something that is out there in reliable sources. I tried, added the Akbar-related information a while ago. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- If there are other sources saying, that's fine (well, "fine" is not the best word in this context...). My point is, that this quote at this place is closer to POV than to objective writing, I think. It msy say more about the perception of the author, than it says about the events. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- It does jar. That is what happens when people write for the mass market - they have to dumb down and sensationalise. - Sitush (talk) 09:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ: Per our discussion on your talk page, I have taken out one non-HISTRS you added. There are other recent HISTRS on the tragic "bloody history, persecution, Hindu scriptures burning under Islamic rule", but I want to read the chapters/journal papers and the context/references therein fully before I distill a few sentence summary into this section. I will give you and others some time to scrub the section further, and add anything else you want to help improve balance and objective writing. But, lets use the same HISTRS standards for both Muslim and Hindu sides. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:43, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Vinay's blog
@Joshua Jonathan:: Is this a blog? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. It was used as a reference for the claim that "may Islamic rulers" destroyed Hindu-temples; that's not what this page says. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ, I have two suggestions: 1) Rajputs should be mentioned. 2) Bhakti movement should be mentioned before going to Vijayanagar and Marathas, because cause comes before effect. Or, at least some more details on Bhakti and it's origin.Also, effect of Islamic monotheism on Hinduism.
- BTW, you have salvaged that part quite well.Ghatus (talk) 07:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is not a blog. Vinay Lal is a Professor of History specializing in Historiography at UCLA. You might call this his lecture notes made available for a public audience. He cites his sources, and the information is authentic. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 17:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: It seems to be. Do you have a link or something that can confirm it is lecture notes or from a book by Lal? Something that has gone through peer review or editorial process at a good publisher would better qualify as HISTRS. Perhaps we should check, then refer to the sources he cites or his publications. Alternatively, I am sure we can find books or peer reviewed journal articles or other HISTRS for widely accepted themes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know whether he created it to be lecture notes, but it is used as such by plenty of lecturers around the world . Note that our policies allow us to use self-published sources by widely published scholars . - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: I see the blog link was added to the email discussion list, in 2002, by the author himself. I don't see evidence for "plenty of lectures around the world". The discussion list has zillions of such links. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know whether he created it to be lecture notes, but it is used as such by plenty of lecturers around the world . Note that our policies allow us to use self-published sources by widely published scholars . - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: It seems to be. Do you have a link or something that can confirm it is lecture notes or from a book by Lal? Something that has gone through peer review or editorial process at a good publisher would better qualify as HISTRS. Perhaps we should check, then refer to the sources he cites or his publications. Alternatively, I am sure we can find books or peer reviewed journal articles or other HISTRS for widely accepted themes. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is not a blog. Vinay Lal is a Professor of History specializing in Historiography at UCLA. You might call this his lecture notes made available for a public audience. He cites his sources, and the information is authentic. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 17:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Verification help with @Ghatus' source substitution
@Ghatus: Consider the source change you have made here to Chaurasia previously added by @JJ:
- The Islamic rule period witnessed Hindu-Muslim confrontation and violence, but also mutual synthesis and the influence of the concept of monotheism.
References
- The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760, SUB SECTION:"Four Conventional Theories of Islamization in India"
- The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760, SUB SECTION:"Four Conventional Theories of Islamization in India 1.5.11"
I am unable to find support for "mutual synthesis", nor for "the influence of the concept of monotheism". Kautilya3: do you see support for either in this, for which @Ghatus is edit warring? If you do, please embed the quote. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
May I ask politely, what ideas did you get after reading the sub-section - Islamization had ever been a function of military ( "Religion of the Sword thesis") and political force or it's opposite? If opposite, your question is answered. Thank you.
BTW, Monotheism is mentioned-" In fact, however, in thinking about Islam in relation to Indian religions, pre modern Muslim intellectuals did not stress their religion’s ideal of social equality as opposed to Hindu inequality, but rather Islamic monotheism as opposed to Hindu polytheism."
And also, this important line-"Those regions where the most dramatic Islamization occurred, such as eastern Bengal or western Punjab, lay on the fringes of Indo-Muslim rule, where the “sword” was weakest, and where brute force could have exerted the least influence." What does that mean??? Synthesis of Cultures. This synthesis of caltures is happening in India from time immemorial. Neither the Aryans, nor the Huns, nor the Turks could escape from this synthesis. Ghatus (talk) 11:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC) Ghatus (talk) 10:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- In response to the latest edits at the article, and the latest comments at the talkpage: I'm sure there are good sources available, which make it possible to give a balanced presentation. Let's not forget that Islam is still a sensitive topic in India - maybe even more than British rule, and the dominance of western culture. Am I correct, when I think so? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Otherwise, it may be wise to have this page fully protected for a couple of days. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
PS: thanks for the Eaton-links; starting to read them now. There's not a Wiki-article on him? Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting:
- "in the subcontinent as a whole there is an inverse relationship between the degree of Muslim political penetration and the degree of Islamization." Eaton, "Mass Conversion to Islam: Theories and Protagonists"
- Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan: Are you able to verify "Islamic rule period witnessed ...mutual synthesis" and "Islamic rule period witnessed ...the influence of the concept of monotheism", that @Ghatus alleges is supported by Eaton? @Ghatus: I saw that sentence, but that sentence does not support the conclusion/idea what your are alleging it does. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- I've just started reading; I don't know. To be honest, I think it might be best to remove this piece of info/text completely at this moment, including the Eaton-source, or to keep the text, but with a "failed verification"/"source needed" tag. And then we'll hve to look for further info/sources. Don't focus too much, I'd say. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:37, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
@JJ: Ok, I will delete it. @Ghatus: Please don't delete your comments, or change another editor's comment, once another editor had replied. You did this here, after I had already replied here, where you also made one of your numerous personal attacks within the last 24 hours, "Ms Sarah Welch is unfit for history writing."
- Your earlier post: As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time into the sphere of the dominant Muslim civilization and global polity at large.
- You changed it to: As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time.
See WP:REDACT on acceptable methods to make such corrections/changes, as we discuss improvements to this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:43, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- I've added some nuances, with thanks to Larson and eaton. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Great job Joshua. It is a sunny day today! - Kautilya3 (talk) 08:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I've added some nuances, with thanks to Larson and eaton. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Mutual synthesis sources
I have the memory of seeing the beautiful term "mutual synthesis" in quite a few places. But Google Books brings up only these two sources.
References
- Long, Jeffrey D. (2013). "Hinduism and the Religious Other". In David Cheetham; Douglas Pratt; David Thomas (eds.). Understanding Interreligious Relations. Oxford University Press. pp. 37–63. ISBN 0191509655.
- Annie Christine Lau (2000). South Asian Children and Adolescents in Britain: Ethno-cultural Studies. Whurr. p. 84. ISBN 978-1-86156-127-5.
So whereas Islam's relationship with Christianity has been marked by clear confrontation, as is evident in Europe and some parts of the Middle East, the encounter with Hinduism led to mutual synthesis, adaptation and accommodation.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kautilya3 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 7 August 2015
- @
JJKautilya3: Annie Lau book may not be the right source to assert unqualified "mutual synthesis". She describes the confrontation and clash between Islam and Christianity in Europe and the Middle East on pages 83-84, then writes, "In South Asia the clash remains inconclusive. So whereas Islam's relationship with Christianity has been marked by clear confrontation, as is evident in Europe and some parts of the Middle East, the encounter with Hinduism led to mutual synthesis, adaptation and accommodation." Without the inconclusive qualifier, we would be misrepresenting Annie Lau. - Jeffrey Long source similarly needs qualification for an accurate summary. Page 53 states, "But there were also reactions against this widespread spirit of mutual synthesis and accomodation. The Mughal emperor Aurangzeb, reigning from 1658 to 1707, aggressively sought forcible conversion of both Hindus and Sikhs to Islam, ..." Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @
- Ms Sarah Welch that wasn't me! It was Kautilya3 diff. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, the so-called "clash" remaining inconclusive is precisely the point. But it wasn't all clash. There was plenty of mutual synthesis, adaptation and accommodation. As for Jeffrey D. Long, he has a page and half worth coverage of the mutual synthesis and then moves on to talk about Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb's forcible conversions are besides the point, but there are plenty of sources that say that Aurangzeb's orthodox puritanism was a reaction to the "mutual synthesis" which was viewed as a corruption of Islam. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:30, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Since you like Jeffrey Long source, we can use it as one of the sources for the summary on forced conversion of followers of Hinduism during the 17th/18th-century. BTW, I am also getting the above 2 sources for "mutual synthesis Islam Hinduism", but 83 sources for "mutual confrontation Islam Hinduism" when filtered per HISTRS guidelines. @JJ: pardonne moi monsieur, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, no. Jeffrey Long is a Religious Studies scholar, not a historian. I don't think he has the final say on the conversion issues. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 20:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Do you know Annie Christine Lau's qualifications? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: no problem, of course! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sarah, I couldn't find any information about Annie Lau. Judging from the title of the paper, I would take it to be ethno-cultural studies. Is she a HISTRS? Not in general. But I would take her to be well-versed in the issues of Hindu-Muslim relations, which seems to be her speciality. By the way, it appears that "mutual synthesis" is a semi-technical term among these kinds of cultural scholars, which hasn't yet been picked up by historians. It describes the Hindu-Muslim relations of the Islamic period quite perfectly. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk)
- @Kautilya3: If Annie Lau is not HISTRS, ignore her for this article. You are free to have your opinion, but if by your acknowledgement, it "hasn't yet been picked up by historians", drop it. Our concern ought to be to avoid cherry picking sources that leads to, in your choice of words on August 5, to "what seems to have come from some Hindutva" pamphlet, or to extend your choice of words, we should avoid cherry picking sources that lead to "what seems to have come from some Islam-championing or global Muslim-dominance polity or Islamist or Taliban" pamphlet/approval-process to present a distorted history. Please apply HISTRS standards with equal rigor to your own sources, as you do to others and to sources provided by @JJ or me or anyone else. BTW, Jeffrey Long is a professor of Religious and Asian studies, religious studies include history, and "Journal of Asian Studies" is a history journal (see this). We should judiciously use Jeffrey Long's publications for building a summary of history of Hinduism in the Islamic rule period. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:04, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Suggested sources
- Burjor Avari (2013), Islamic Civilization in South Asia: A History of Muslim Power and Presence in the Indian Subcontinent, Routledge
- A.L. Basham (1999), A Cultural History of India, Oxford University Press
- Richard M. Eaton (), The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760], University of California Press
- Wink, Al-Hind, the Making of the Indo-Islamic World, BRILL
- Gerald James Larson (1995), India's Agony Over Religion: Confronting Diversity in Teacher Education, SUNY, chapter 3; especially pp.109-112 (and ff?)
- Burton Stein (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, chapter fur, Early Modern India
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Revisit the Islamic period
I think the situation has become very confused. We can't fix it by checking sources and cleaning text, because the basic problem is of due weight. Each of us has our own idea of what should be mentioned. I also feel that the whole idea of Hinduism has gotten lost, which should be our real focus. So, can I ask each involved editor to list here the 5 most important points to be mentioned regarding Hinduism during the "Islamic period"? Please make a separate subsection for each editor. - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- JJ:
- a balanced intro;
- islamic dominance & violence;
- Islamic interest in Hinduism;
- Bhakti;
- "integration/consolidation" of Hinduism (appraisal of Shankara; searching for commonalities (Nicholson)).
- Ghatus:
- Internal weakness of Hinduism just before the advent of of the Turks.
- Initial confrontations and hatred for each other.(Here Rajput vs Turks could be mentioned.)
- Synthesis of ideas and Rise of Bhakti movement.
- A social upward movement of non-privileged Hindus.
- Revival of Hinduism along with the rise of Hindu polity with Vijayanagara and Marathas.Ghatus (talk) 11:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Kautilya:
- Recognition of Hindus as dhimmi (protected people).
- discrimination and persecution (of Hindus, but focusing on religious aspects).
- Sufism and its interaction with Bhakti.
- Kabir and Nanak.
- Vijayanagara & Unifying Hinduism ideas. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch:
- How was Hinduism and how were followers of Hinduism affected by the pressures of Islam in the Islamic period? – violence, persecution, confrontation, ideas, sharing, cooperation.
- What internal changes/evolution within Hinduism and among followers of Hinduism happened during the Islamic period? – bhakti movement.
- In what ways did the diverse groups within Hinduism re-group, re-invent, consolidate themselves during this period? – include a mention of numerous Sampradayas of Hinduism and Hinduism's warrior/military monks.
- Which texts and scriptures of Hinduism emerged or were lost? with a few distilled sentences on the emergence of and the interaction of Sikhism and Hinduism in and after the 15th-century.
- A few sentences on how this period transitioned into the next stage of Hinduism history (Modern Hinduism (from c.1800)).
- Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- (ps) I have listed these because there are many recent HISTRS to create summary answers for these questions. In question 3 in my list, I am particularly referring to the many new Sampradaya of Hinduism that were founded during the Islamic rule period, which are now among the largest monk communities in Asia. Similarly, the warrior monks were a new, notable and influential phenomena of Hinduism that emerged in the Islamic rule period. See sources such as: William Pinch (2012), Warrior Ascetics and Indian Empires, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-1107406377. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
Wow, that is quite a diverse list. Pooling all of them together, we get about 12-15 points. So if each of us prepares a couple of sentences about each point, along with sources, we can probably put together quite a balanced section. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 19:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Ghatus & Ms Sarah Welch: now take a break
Ghatus & Ms Sarah Welch, I'm adressing the two of you here together, so it's clear that I'm adressing both of you: take a break, breath deep, and let it go for a while. The Persians/Afghans/Turk ruled northern India for half a millennium; I guess a few more days to figure out how they impacted Hinduism won't hurt that much, does it? What does hurt are the Wiki-policies, and the sanctions that may be imposed. So please, both of you, stop it, and don't template each others talkpages. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Technically you're both at 3RR now, I guess; that's enough for today. Regarding the interplay between Islam and Hinduism: for the moment, that sentence is gone. Let's find relevant sources, instead of re-re-reverting and throwing with templates. And accept that most of us does have a POV somewhere. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Mutual synthesis of Sufism and Bhaktism
Here I am adding only the sufism and bhaktism part. For synthesis in the mughal period/ society,many books are available. This writing is a part of my exam note (one can verify any data with a simple google search, if needed) taken and prepared by me from various books.
"The interaction between the two is clear from the remarkable similarities between the two. These similarities included emphasis on monotheism, on the role of the spiritual guide (pir or guru), and on mystical union with God. Moreover, both the Bhakti saints and many Sufi orders were critical of the orthodox elements in Hinduism and Islam respectively. One prominent example of the influence of the Bhakti movement on Sufism is offered by the "Rishi order of the Sufis" in Kashmir. Here, the non-conformist ideas of the famous 14th century women , bhakti-preacher, Lal Ded or Lalleshwari, exercised profound influence on the founder of the order Shaikh Nuruddin Wali. And, so is the case in the worship of Satya Pir by Eastern Indian Hindus. Same issues are with Qalandar Keshava (Krishna) of the North and Sai baba of the South – revered by both Hindus and Muslims.
The interaction between the Chishti sufis and the Nathpanthis during the Sultanate period is also well established fact. The movement of the Nathpanthis had attained considerable popularity in Northern India, in particular among the lower sections of the society, during the 13th and 14th centuries. The Nathpanthi yogis frequently visited the Khanqahs of the leading Chishti sheikh and had discussions with them on the nature of mysticism. The translation of the Yoga – treatise Amrit-Kund into Persian from Sanskrit even before the advent of sufism in India led to the adoption of may meditative practices by the Sufis. The early Chishtis approved some of the ethical values of the Nathpanthi yogis and their corporate way of life. Like the Chishtis, the Nathpanthis had opened their doors to all sections of society, irrespective of caste distinctions. The common outlook of the two popular movements provided a basis for mutual understanding between Muslims and non-Muslims.
The adaptability of the Chishti in the non-Muslirn environment of India released syncretic forces and add to cultural synthesis. Many early Chishtis spoke in Hindawi and composed versed in it. Many khanqahs inspired the composition of mystical poetry in regional languages. Some early Hindi works such as Chandayan by Mulla Daud (second half of the 14th century) combined mysticism with Hindu mythology and philosophy. The sufi folk literature of the later times was a mix of the simplest precepts of Islam and sufi terminology and the existing popular imagery and idiom and, thus, contributed to the growth of eclectic religious life, particularly in the rural areas. The Chishti practice of “Sama” provided the basis for a syncretic musical tradition such as the repertoire of religious songs called “qawwali” which is said to have begun with Amir Khusrau."Ghatus (talk) 07:43, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Further Reading
Hindu-Muslim Syncretism in India - JStorGhatus (talk) 08:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Current version of the Islamic rule period
@JJ: are you okay if we expand "several hundred thousands of Indian slaves were traced to other parts" to include Delhi slave market and Timur's last massive haul of Hindu slaves? It makes it more clearly relevant to Hinduism and its followers. It is in the embedded quote from the Andre Wink source, and @Kautilya3 approves of Andre Wink as a source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:20, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sure. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:38, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I prefer it in the footnote. I have already demonstrated, through the Avari source, that slavery was the established practice of the Turkic society. It wasn't religious persecution. Harping on it would be WP:UNDUE. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- At second thought, Kautilya3 has got a point here. The full quote already is in the note; the most relevant part is that there was a slave-trade. How i it relevant to Hinduism specifically? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- The more relevant part is the "last massive slave haul of Hindu slaves." Indeed, we should leave most in the note. @JJ, I will do some wordsmithing, but feel free to refine it further. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- At second thought, Kautilya3 has got a point here. The full quote already is in the note; the most relevant part is that there was a slave-trade. How i it relevant to Hinduism specifically? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I prefer it in the footnote. I have already demonstrated, through the Avari source, that slavery was the established practice of the Turkic society. It wasn't religious persecution. Harping on it would be WP:UNDUE. - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
"Hindu" slave/war captives and Timur
Historian Irfan Habib writes in "Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India" that in the 14th century, the word "Hindu" (people of "Al-Hind", "Hind" being "India") included "both Hindus and Muslims" in religious connotations.
When Timur entered Delhi after defeating Mahmud Toghloq’s forces, he granted an amnesty in return for protection money (mâl-e amâni). But on the fourth day he ordered that all the people of the city be enslaved; and so they were. Thus reports Yahya, who here inserts a pious prayer in Arabic for the victims’ consolation ("To God we return, and everything happens by His will"). Yazdi, on the other hand, does not have any sympathy to waste on these wretches. He records that Timur had granted protection to the people of Delhi on the 18th of December 1398, and the collectors had begun collecting the protection money. But large groups of Timur’s soldiers began to enter the city and, like birds of prey, attacked its citizens. The "pagan Hindus" (Henduân-e gabr) having had the temerity to begin immolating their women and themselves, the three cities of Delhi were put to sack by Timur’s soldiers. "Faithless Hindus", he adds, had gathered in the Congregation Mosque of Old Delhi and Timur’s officers put them ruthlessly to slaughter there on the 29th of December. Clearly, Yazdi’s "Hindus" included Muslims as well.
Ghatus (talk) 03:39, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- ^ http://asiecentrale.revues.org/500
- Timur in the Political Tradition and Historiography of Mughal India, Irfan Habib,p. 295-312
- I just read here in Eaton's essay on temple desecration that that the period of 1000-1200 CE the muslim invasions were merely for material reasons, that their armies also contained slaves (p.63), and that also territoy in Iran was plundered. Only with the establishment of the Delhi sultanate the aims changed. It reminds me of the Normans in Europe, who are regarded as barbarians in the Lowlands (and as traiders and settlers in England...). Adding your quoye to it, it seems that a lot of this Muslim-violence may have had little to do with the 'Hinduness' of India, and a lot with the economical base & logic of these invaders. But... that's my conclusion, and maybe your suggestion, and interesting and relevant for our own understanding and for a direction the article may take, but it's not suited for inclusion, since these are our thoughts. So, more is needed. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:, my point is the article says "Enslavement of Hindus was part of the Muslim conquests."(Sarah added "of Hindus" later) What does that mean? Enslavement of war captives was a medieval policy. It did not see which religion one belonged as slave trade was a profitable business at that time. Even many Muslim rulers of Delhi sultanate and their top generals were Slaves. Again, this is not my word, Irfan Habib says that even in the 14th century the word "Hindu" did not have religious connotations, but geographical meaning. Timur's "Hindus" were actually Indians (both Hindus and Muslims). So the word "Hindu" in Persian text has totally different meaning and wrong interpretation is being done here. BTW, read both the booklets of Eaton and you will get a clearer picture.Ghatus (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ: I left your revised wording and the note intact, on slavery of followers of Hinduism. The notes/text already includes slavery of the families of war captives and for unpaid revenue (jizya tax revenue were always for Hinduness, or Henduân - a term in their historical texts that included Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and anyone not officially Muslim). We can't do synthesis of Eaton and Habib. While Habib does write that, in Yazdi's text, slaughtered Hindus included Muslims, he neither writes enslaved Hindus included Muslims, nor anything about the relative ratios. Later Habib writes, "Delhi was laid waste (kharâb shod) ... in punishment for its inhabitants’ evil beliefs and vile deeds and conduct" - a reference to non-Islamic beliefs. I wouldn't recommend that you add Habib quote on slaughter into the slavery note.
- If you wish to learn more about slavery of non-Muslims during the Mughal Empire, dig into Aurangzeb's Fatawa Alamgiri related HISTRS. That is where you will find more neutral solid information on the Islamic theory and practice of enslavement of Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, etc. in India. Dirk Kolff's PhD thesis at Leiden had sections on enslavement of Hindus during the Mughal rule. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:16, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- Lol! We have Slave Dynasty of Muslims in India. BTW, are you interested to know about the History of Muslims slaves in India and worldwide? Should I name the slave sultans and their top slave generals. Truly speaking, Muslim rule started in the North India by Muslim slaves themselves. It was a worldwide profitable business. From Ghaznavi to Timur to Nadir Shah- all enslaved people irrespective of religion. And, you are making it a issue as if it was a deliberate policy to enslave only Hindus or like minded religions. I do not know which Fatwa of enslaving Hindus you are referring to, but 1/3 (31% ) of Mughal nobles were Hindu during the time of Aurangzeb. (1679-1707)
Table 1 . . Akbar Shah Jahan Aurangzeb (1595) (1628-58) (1658-78) (1679-17017) Total mansabdars 98 437 486 575 Hindus 22 98 105 182 Ghatus (talk) 07:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ghatus: See WP:NOTFORUM. @JJ: I would not recommend expanding the section to include Mamluk dynasty and slavery of Hindus, Buddhists in each dynasty of the Islamic rule - it will be distracting and undue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hence, I think the line "Enslavement of Hindus was part of the Muslim conquests" should be changed to "Enslavement was part of the Muslim conquests" as it was before. The reason is you were making a general incident into a special incident. Again, not slave dynasty alone, from Aibak(12th century) to Malik Ambar (17th century), the Islamic slaves also have a great History. So, needless communalization is not desired.Ghatus (talk) 07:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- Read the cited sources. We must stick to summarizing what the sources are stating, not your views derived from, "Lol! We have Slave Dynasty of Muslims in India. BTW, are you interested to know about the History of Muslims slaves in India and worldwide?." Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Tantric Body by Gavin Flood
Page 34 of the book Tantric Body describes how Islam devastated Hinduism. He also cites other scholars you can look at.VictoriaGrayson 19:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Suhrawardi Tariqah
The following line was added, as evidence for forced conversions:
- "and orthodox Sufi Islam groups such as the Suhrawardiyya supporting the forced conversion of Hindus and Buddhists." (source: John Esposito (2003), Suhrawardi Tariqah, in The Oxford Dictionary of Islam, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0195125597, page 303)
The source, which altogether only counts 114 words, only says:
- "Supported the forced conversion of Hindus and Buddhists."
No context, no mention of other Sufi groups. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:41, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ: How about "and orthodox Sufi Islam group Suhrawardi Tariqah supporting the forced conversion of Hindus and Buddhists"? For context, see the "Sufi missionary" and the "warrior Sufi" theories discussed in Jamal Malik's 2008 book you have already included in this article, at pages 184-185 of the Conversion to Islam in South Asia section. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:40, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JJ: That phrase is not for "as evidence for forced conversions", but for "as evidence of support for forced conversions". It clarifies whether enslavement of the followers of Hinduism and Buddhism was merely an incidental consequence, or with a theory and intent behind? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. yet, this "theory and intend behind" is not clear, nor the number of converts involved. You refer to Malik, Jamal (2008), Islam in South Asia: A Short History, Brill Academic, ISBN 978-9004168596; I'll have to look it up. Thanks, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:07, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages articles that use Indian English
- Misplaced Pages former featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- All unassessed articles
- B-Class India articles
- Top-importance India articles
- B-Class India articles of Top-importance
- WikiProject India articles
- B-Class Nepal articles
- Mid-importance Nepal articles
- WikiProject Nepal articles
- B-Class Pakistan articles
- Low-importance Pakistan articles
- WikiProject Pakistan articles
- B-Class Sri Lanka articles
- Mid-importance Sri Lanka articles
- WikiProject Sri Lanka articles
- B-Class Indonesia articles
- Mid-importance Indonesia articles
- WikiProject Indonesia articles
- B-Class Malaysia articles
- Low-importance Malaysia articles
- WikiProject Malaysia articles
- B-Class Cambodia articles
- Low-importance Cambodia articles
- WikiProject Cambodia articles
- B-Class Afghanistan articles
- Low-importance Afghanistan articles
- WikiProject Afghanistan articles
- B-Class South America articles
- Low-importance South America articles
- B-Class Guyana articles
- Low-importance Guyana articles
- Guyana articles
- WikiProject South America articles
- B-Class Trinidad and Tobago articles
- Mid-importance Trinidad and Tobago articles
- WikiProject Trinidad and Tobago articles
- B-Class Hinduism articles
- Top-importance Hinduism articles
- B-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists